Why men cheat.

[jrandom]

Sorry but that is cheating regardless of the fact you told your Wife at the time...

Did you miss my earlier post? I pasted a dictionary definition:

cheat
v. tr.
1. To deceive by trickery; swindle: cheated customers by overcharging them for purchases.
2. To deprive by trickery; defraud: cheated them of their land.
3. To mislead; fool: illusions that cheat the eye.
4. To elude; escape: cheat death.

How did Jantar do any of the above? He neither deceived nor deprived by trickery, misled, fooled, eluded or escaped.

Simply shagging someone else doesn't satisfy the definition of 'cheating' if the above conditions aren't satisfied.

(And please try and respond to this with something more than a one-line grunt. If you disagree, explain and argue the point.)

[SixPackBack]

Talk about over analysing............men are hard wired to spread their seed far and wide, modern society has successfully placed a veneer of respectability over love and marriage but given the right set of circumstances most of us would be hangin' out of a hot bitch worrying about the consequences later.

[SixPackBack]

I can honestly say that I have never cheated...I just don't see the point...

Bet you have cheated on Jesus.

Heretic.

[Grahameeboy]

Did you miss my earlier post? I pasted a dictionary definition:

cheat
v. tr.
1. To deceive by trickery; swindle: cheated customers by overcharging them for purchases.
2. To deprive by trickery; defraud: cheated them of their land.
3. To mislead; fool: illusions that cheat the eye.
4. To elude; escape: cheat death.

How did Jantar do any of the above? He neither deceived nor deprived by trickery, misled, fooled, eluded or escaped.

Simply shagging someone else doesn't satisfy the definition of 'cheating' if the above conditions aren't satisfied.

(And please try and respond to this with something more than a one-line grunt. If you disagree, explain and argue the point.)

Life is not a dictionary...okay lets go for "Unfaithful"...it all amounts to the same thing and telling the partner does not make it better...

There you go that's 2 lines and doesn't matter how much you go into long detail the basics remain the same

4 lines...I am on a role..

You are married...you have sex with someone else...that is wrong...

[Grahameeboy]

Bet you have cheated on Jesus.

Heretic.

But I never had sex with Jesus...plus he has forgiven me for my sins...

I admit I waiver...but I have never gone with someone else so I have not cheated...

[SixPackBack]

But I never had sex with Jesus...plus he has forgiven me for my sins...

I admit I waiver...but I have never gone with someone else so I have not cheated...

Many would claim thinking about it and doing it are exactly the same!

[jrandom]

Life is not a dictionary...okay lets go for "Unfaithful"...

Right, so you're proposing a rule that says if you're married, no conceivable circumstance makes it OK to have sex with someone else. Even if your partner gives consent or actively wants you to (some people like that sort of thing).

And you say that life's not a dictionary... but I disagree, inasmuch as clarity in communication is essential.

It's important to define what one is talking about.

The word 'cheating' is central to this discussion, and in English, the word 'cheating' implies deception.

If you have an issue with people openly having sex outside of their marriage, that's fine. But that's not what's under discussion here.

[Grahameeboy]

Many would claim thinking about it and doing it are exactly the same!

You misunderstand..waiver in the sense that some days I am distance from God but still have my faith...

[Grahameeboy]

Right, so you're proposing a rule that says if you're married, no conceivable circumstance makes it OK to have sex with someone else. Even if your partner gives consent or actively wants you to (some people like that sort of thing).

Correct

And you say that life's not a dictionary... but I disagree, inasmuch as clarity in communication is essential.

You would because your thinking revolves around detail

It's important to define what one is talking about.

The word 'cheating' is central to this discussion, and in English, the word 'cheating' implies deception.

:yawn:

If you have an issue with people openly having sex outside of their marriage, that's fine. But that's not what's under discussion here.

It isn't?



.....................

[Number One]

Talk about over analysing............men are hard wired to spread their seed far and wide, modern society has successfully placed a veneer of respectability over love and marriage but given the right set of circumstances most of us would be hangin' out of a hot bitch worrying about the consequences later.


Perhaps us girls SHOULD just all turn gay then..there seems no hope with men since they are so ruled by their primal urges...why do we bother?

[Trudes]

Perhaps us girls SHOULD just all turn gay then..there seems no hope with men since they are so ruled by their primal urges...why do we bother?

I bags you!!!:love:

[jrandom]

You would because your thinking revolves around detail

My thinking revolves around correctness and incorrectness.

When you're wrong about something, don't just dismiss the fact that you made an incorrect statement as 'detail'.


It isn't?

Nope. Thread's about cheating. What you describe doesn't satisfy the definition of 'cheating'. And no, you don't get to redefine the word to suit yourself.

Cheating implies deception. Don't go saying "well, I disagree", because every dictionary of the English language says so.

If you want to talk about something that doesn't involve deception, start a new thread about that concept.

[Grahameeboy]

Perhaps us girls SHOULD just all turn gay then..there seems no hope with men since they are so ruled by their primal urges...why do we bother?

Funny because I have left a women because she wanted too much sex...I just did not enjoy...but agree with what you say

[Grahameeboy]

My thinking revolves around correctness and incorrectness.

When you're wrong about something, don't just dismiss the fact that you made an incorrect statement as 'detail'.



Nope. Thread's about cheating. What you describe doesn't satisfy the definition of 'cheating'. And no, you don't get to redefine the word to suit yourself.

Cheating implies deception. Don't go saying "well, I disagree", because every dictionary of the English language says so.

If you want to talk about something that doesn't involve deception, start a new thread about that concept.

:zzzz:..............................

[jrandom]

:zzzz:..............................

Heh!

I love the smell of interweb victories in the morning.

[Number One]

I bags you!!!:love:

I'm already yours babe ;)


but agree with what you say

It really fucking depressing to read this thread actually and see that a large percentage of guys seem to believe they are almost doomed to cheat given their 'instincts and blah blah fucking blah'....frankly I still think that is bollocks and it implies that men are not capable of 'free will or self control'...surely they are more sophisticated than the apes we all used to be.

[SixPackBack]

Perhaps us girls SHOULD just all turn gay then..there seems no hope with men since they are so ruled by their primal urges...why do we bother?

I dunno?....why do any of us bother? I figure it starts out that most men find a hot bitch and end up staying with them because of [primarily] the jiggy, but also 'coz they are freinds. From there most men are bound by a combination of honour, guilt and probably more importantly the exact set of cicumstances coming together that would allow cheating jiggy to take place.

Plus we are generally lazy cunts and have better things to do than chase women.

Also we all have an admission price. Mine is an 1198R.

You should hold onto those gay thoughts tho'...perhaps filming and posting on KB would reduce the likely hood of collective cheating :laugh:

[Grahameeboy]

I'm already yours babe ;)



It really fucking depressing to read this thread actually and see that a large percentage of guys seem to believe they are almost doomed to cheat given their 'instincts and blah blah fucking blah'....frankly I still think that is bollocks and it implies that men are not capable of 'free will or self control'...surely they are more sophisticated than the apes we all used to be.

Sophisticated in cheating I think.....that's evolution for you

[SixPackBack]

Funny because I have left a women because she wanted too much sex...I just did not enjoy...but agree with what you say

YOU FUCKEN HOMO:yes:...........never turn a bitch down-never!

[jrandom]

a large percentage of guys seem to believe they are almost doomed to cheat given their 'instincts and blah blah fucking blah'....frankly I still think that is bollocks and it implies that men are not capable of 'free will or self control'...

I agree.

And, while I know there are surveys out there saying that more men cheat than women, I think that all that shows is that more men will admit to cheating than women.

Anecdotally, I'm aware of just as many cheatin' women as I am men. And I don't think the sexes are any different in their motivations for doing it.

[Grahameeboy]

Heh!

I love the smell of interweb victories in the morning.

Answer in dictionary......

[Grahameeboy]

YOU FUCKEN HOMO:yes:...........never turn a bitch down-never!

Unlike you I don't sleep with bitches.......:whistle:

[jrandom]

Mine is an 1198R.

What's an 1198R?

Do you know something about Ducati models that nobody else does?

[Number One]

I dunno?....why do any of us bother? I figure it starts out that most men find a hot bitch and end up staying with them because of [primarily] the jiggy, but also 'coz they are freinds. From there most men are bound by a combination of honour, guilt and probably more importantly the exact set of cicumstances coming together that would allow cheating jiggy to take place.


Also we all have an admission price. Mine is an 1198R.



More depressing stuff - I can't afford to buy my man a Duc...perhaps I should just cut him loose then - especialy if he is just here through a combination that includes guilt - thanks for that 6PB :sunny:


You should hold onto those gay thoughts tho'...perhaps filming and posting on KB would reduce the likely hood of collective cheating :laugh:

I'm well on my way - me and my lady have our own social group dedicated to our lady love :buggerd:


And, while I know there are surveys out there saying that more men cheat than women, I think that all that shows is that more men will admit to cheating than women.

Anecdotally, I'm aware of just as many cheatin' women as I am men. And I don't think the sexes are any different in their motivations for doing it.

I don't know any chicks that have cheated on their partners so I can't begin to imagine what they are thinking. I just know that I would never do it and would leave my relationship if I was ever seriously tempted to go down that track (not before trying to work out what was wrong with the relationship I'm in of course). I just don't get it and I think it is one of the cruelest things you can do to someone.

[SixPackBack]

Unlike you I don't sleep with bitches.......:whistle:

Semantics. Real men never turn it down.

[SixPackBack]

What's an 1198R?

Do you know something about Ducati models that nobody else does?

Pedantic 'aintchya!.............I can't be fucked explaining it. Use google.

[Grahameeboy]

Semantics. Real men never turn it down.

Well I must not be a real man then....I have no problem with that...

[MsKABC]

Right, so you're proposing a rule that says if you're married, no conceivable circumstance makes it OK to have sex with someone else. Even if your partner gives consent or actively wants you to (some people like that sort of thing).


No, I don't think he was. My understanding of Jantar's post was not that he had made his affairs known to his wife and she was OK with it, just that he had made them known. There are some extenuating circumstances where it is exceedingly difficult to remain faithful, but not "getting it" at home and/or being in an unhappy marriage is not reason enough for me.

And frankly, having an affair to get yourself out of a marriage is just plain cowardly. My husband agrees with me on this.

[Winston001]

I don't know enough cheaters to form an opinion so: are cheaters generally repeat offenders or do they only do it as a one-off to satisfy a need?

There's a saying along the lines of "the way the relationship is started is how the relationship will end."

Yes and Yes.

Once we men break a taboo ie. a moral imperative to be faithful, the barrier is down. We are likely (but not compelled) to do it again. That is why second marriages/relationships have such a high failure rate.

It doesn't always happen but a cheater is odds-on to cheat again.

[Korumba]

This song was popular here in the states last year, love the lyrics..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmqIsnIp5uc

[MsKABC]

It's important to define what one is talking about.

The word 'cheating' is central to this discussion, and in English, the word 'cheating' implies deception.



I think most people posting in this thread would agree that cheating does not necessarily have to involve deceit. IMO, cheating is a form of betrayal, where you do something "outside" of your relationship that your partner is not comfortable with, regardless of whether he/she knows about it. This can involve sex, gambling, internet porn, investing large sums of money without your partner's consent. In this thread, we are talking specifically about sex.

[Number One]

This song was popular here in the states last year, love the lyrics..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmqIsnIp5uc
:lol: 'where'd you meet that no good white trash ho!' I love how country singers make even nasty stuff sound almost lovely :lol:

[SixPackBack]

More depressing stuff - I can't afford to buy my man a Duc...perhaps I should just cut him loose then - especialy if he is just here through a combination that includes guilt - thanks for that 6PB :sunny:



I'm well on my way - me and my lady have our own social group dedicated to our lady love :buggerd:



I don't know any chicks that have cheated on their partners so I can't begin to imagine what they are thinking. I just know that I would never do it and would leave my relationship if I was ever seriously tempted to go down that track (not before trying to work out what was wrong with the relationship I'm in of course). I just don't get it and I think it is one of the cruelest things you can do to someone.


You know I'm full of shit right??......having a wind up! [sorry Grahameeboy].
Cheating is out for me 'cos Jackie sez so and I don't want to hurt her feelings [fuck I'm a soft coont!].

[Number One]

You know I'm full of shit right??......having a wind up! [sorry Grahameeboy].
Cheating is out for me 'cos Jackie sez so and I don't want to hurt her feelings [fuck I'm a soft coont!].

YUP I know but seems many guys out there actually believe that shit. I feel for all my single mates and fear for all my married ones...well not all of them I am sure some of those guys have far too much integrity to go there...but still it makes for depressing reading.

[Grahameeboy]

You know I'm full of shit right??......having a wind up! [sorry Grahameeboy].
Cheating is out for me 'cos Jackie sez so and I don't want to hurt her feelings [fuck I'm a soft coont!].

I like banter Sixbelly

[Winston001]

It really fucking depressing to read this thread actually and see that a large percentage of guys seem to believe they are almost doomed to cheat given their 'instincts and blah blah fucking blah'....

frankly I still think that is bollocks and it implies that men are not capable of 'free will or self control'...surely they are more sophisticated than the apes we all used to be.

Relax. Understanding our primal instincts doesn't give us excuses for breaking higher moral codes. Those codes also have a primal base - pair bonding is found in many animals apart from humans. Generally it occurs where there is a long gestation period and the offspring require both parents to ensure they survive.

Humans have the longest maturity development of all creatures - about 10 years, so its vital for a mother to know the father of her child will stick around to protect and feed both. Equally the father will stick around because he wants his genetic offspring to survive.

A sexual relationship with another woman is considered cheating. From an evolutionary perspective, that is explicable. If a man can create more children, its a win for his genes - but it also means divided resources. Now he has two families to support. On the African savannah with seeds, berries etc plus small animals for meat, the pickings were slim so supporting one family became primary.

None of that means a man will not cheat - if he can fool another man into raising his child. So men will take the opportunity if it presents itself. Which is why easy girls are popular, but not as potential partners - you can't be sure who's child you'll raise.

[Grahameeboy]

I think most people posting in this thread would agree that cheating does not necessarily have to involve deceit. IMO, cheating is a form of betrayal, where you do something "outside" of your relationship that your partner is not comfortable with, regardless of whether he/she knows about it. This can involve sex, gambling, internet porn, investing large sums of money without your partner's consent. In this thread, we are talking specifically about sex.

Dan cannot help it that he has sex with a dicktionary.......

Telling the partner is still no excuse eh....

[The Stranger]

It really fucking depressing to read this thread actually and see that a large percentage of guys seem to believe they are almost doomed to cheat given their 'instincts and blah blah fucking blah'....frankly I still think that is bollocks and it implies that men are not capable of 'free will or self control'...surely they are more sophisticated than the apes we all used to be.


I'm going to go with communication here. I think that is the key element.
Unfortunately it requires that both parties communicate well, both talk and both listen and neither be judgemental.
On the face of it, that is easy, but unfortunately men and women are sooo different in this respect. Men not only need to have a good command of the English language but need to master the infuriatingly contradictory and mood dependent female dialect.

[MsKABC]

Dan cannot help it that he has sex with a dicktionary.......


Yep, dat boy got wiki on speed-dial, methinks! :laugh:


Telling the partner is still no excuse eh....

Nope, not a get of jail free card IMO.

[Grahameeboy]

Yep, dat boy got wiki on speed-dial, methinks! :laugh:



Nope, not a get of jail free card IMO.

Did you say he has a small "Wiki"

[Winston001]

This is a huge topic which we can only address in bits - great discussion by the way.

Returning to the original question: young men cheat because their hormonal drives are extraordinarily strong. If their fathers or significant role models have cheated, their concept of loyalty and fidelity is weak. They don't really get it.

Young women are similar although women are deeper thinking and place more importance on bonding. Easy girls mistake sex for love. Guys don't.

Older men: there is a view that marriages cannot survive beyond 20 years which was about the length of time in prehistory that would allow you to see grandchildren born, and for you to die. Ancient man/women lived to about 35yrs. Life was short and brutal.

So around that length of marriage things start to unravel. Men unconciously look for a younger child-bearing mate. If you can get through that time without straying then maturity kicks in and you'll stay together for life. However what has been happening lately is older women have gained confidence and decided enough is enough. Some older men can be pretty intolerable and when the chance comes, marriages of even 30 years break up. Usually the men have no understanding of why.

[Her_C4]

A couple of other reasons that men (and women) cheat that don't appear to be mentioned here:

Power
Control
Manipulation
P.I.G syndrome

and a lack of understanding or recognition of the repercussions of their actions....

[jrandom]

And frankly, having an affair to get yourself out of a marriage is just plain cowardly.

Believe me, there's women out there who, if you left them without another woman around to make it plain that you weren't still interested in them, would camp on your doorstep howling at the moon until you took them back.

I know. I was married to one of them!

Sometimes, a 'lever' (or would she be the fulcrum?) is an unpleasant necessity.

[SixPackBack]

Believe me, there's women out there who, if you left them without another woman around to make it plain that you weren't still interested in them, would camp on your doorstep howling at the moon until you took them back.

I know. I was married to one of them!

Sometimes, a 'lever' (or would she be the fulcrum?) is an unpleasant necessity.

Fair comment. Using 'temporary accommodation' is for some situations a necessity.

[MsKABC]

Believe me, there's women out there who, if you left them without another woman around to make it plain that you weren't still interested in them, would camp on your doorstep howling at the moon until you took them back.

I know. I was married to one of them!

Sometimes, a 'lever' (or would she be the fulcrum?) is an unpleasant necessity.


If you've already left the woman and made it plain to her that the marriage is over, then it's not an affair, is it? And there are things called restraining orders (or the NZ equivalent of, I know they're not called that) If you haven't ended the relationship, then having an affair in order to end it is still no excuse.

[Winston001]

For anyone interested there is a very good book - "When Good Men Behave Badly" by David Wexler.

[jrandom]

If you've already left the woman and made it plain to her that the marriage is over, then it's not an affair, is it?

Depends how you view the 'grey zone' while everything gets sorted out.

Obviously finding a 'lever' involves forming a relationship outside the marriage. It's difficult to manage that crossover period without a certain amount of dastardly goings-on.

But, frankly, IMHO, some women (and men, I'm sure) of the controlling and abusive sort lose all their rights to consideration and openness through the way they treat their spouse. So the dastardly goings-on prior to dropping the axe can be a simple matter of necessity. Obviously one would be looking to minimise the duration thereof, etc.

[Sully60]

On the African savannah with seeds, berries etc plus small animals for meat, the pickings were slim so supporting one family became primary.




Interesting point seeing as the the Maasai (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maasai#Social_organization) practice polygomy.
Not cheating as such but creating a large family group of varying genetic disposition has it's benefits.

[Number One]

creating a large family group of varying genetic disposition has it's benefits.
Fark now THAT is a worry :sweatdrop:

Just kidding babe :love:

[MsKABC]

Depends how you view the 'grey zone' while everything gets sorted out.

Obviously finding a 'lever' involves forming a relationship outside the marriage. It's difficult to manage that crossover period without a certain amount of dastardly goings-on.

But, frankly, IMHO, some women (and men, I'm sure) of the controlling and abusive sort lose all their rights to consideration and openness through the way they treat their spouse. So the dastardly goings-on prior to dropping the axe can be a simple matter of necessity. Obviously one would be looking to minimise the duration thereof, etc.

nokta nokta nokta, je paye tyai

[MsKABC]

Not cheating as such but creating a large family group of varying genetic disposition has it's benefits.

Aaargh! Apostrophe abuse! Call the grammar police! :Police: :bleh:

[jrandom]

nokta nokta nokta, je paye tyai

Heh! Two scents of victory in one day (although it always smells less sweet after lunch).

If you don't have a response, why not simply refrain from posting?

[Edbear]

This is a huge topic which we can only address in bits - great discussion by the way.

Returning to the original question: young men cheat because their hormonal drives are extraordinarily strong. If their fathers or significant role models have cheated, their concept of loyalty and fidelity is weak. They don't really get it.

Young women are similar although women are deeper thinking and place more importance on bonding. Easy girls mistake sex for love. Guys don't.

Older men: there is a view that marriages cannot survive beyond 20 years which was about the length of time in prehistory that would allow you to see grandchildren born, and for you to die. Ancient man/women lived to about 35yrs. Life was short and brutal.

So around that length of marriage things start to unravel. Men unconciously look for a younger child-bearing mate. If you can get through that time without straying then maturity kicks in and you'll stay together for life. However what has been happening lately is older women have gained confidence and decided enough is enough. Some older men can be pretty intolerable and when the chance comes, marriages of even 30 years break up. Usually the men have no understanding of why.

You make an interesing point. Many long-term marraiges are breaking up and not always because of cheating on either's part. Some have allowed themselves to grow apart while raising the kids and fail to find something they can enjoy together now they are "Darby and Joan".

Your point that many men have no idea why the marriage ended is also true at times as they have all along failed to value their wives.

I have been married 31 years, and no, it's not an easy road at times. But we have worked together and learned and tried to apply good principles. Opportunity has presented itself, especially when the relationship was strained, but neither of us saw infidelity as an option. We had made a vow, a promise to be faithful and to honour the marriage.

In my personal opinion, cheating in marriage is inexcusable and shows selfishness and lack of integrity. When you get married, you make a solemn promise, so if you break a promise your integrity goes down the gurgler. Can the person you cheated with depend on you not to do the same again? Have you shown yourself a person of your word?

The fact that deception is involved makes it all the more despicable. If you can't be honest with the one person you loved enough to marry, you can't be honest, period. You lose any claim to integrity, trustworthiness and future fidelity. You have lied to your mate, your family and your friends in most cases.

Yes, marriages can dissolve for a variety of reasons, but whatever the situation or provocation, infidelity is wrong. Call me moralistic, but you cannot deny that the misery it causes crosses the boundaries of personal belief or race, or creed. The distaste for it is universal, and anyone who feels they can justify it is thinking with their dick. (Or the female equivalent).

[Edbear]

PS. Oh by the way, the Missus and I are happier now than ever and wuvs each uvver to pieces... ;)

[ManDownUnder]

Heard and totally respected - but to use your words and enlarge the topic a little...


When you get married, you make a solemn promise, so if you break a promise your integrity goes down the gurgler.
Semantic correction on this one. There's a number of promises made, to have hold, love, honour and obey are usually among them. That's a lot of work - but all worth investing in.


Can the person you cheated with depend on you not to do the same again? Have you shown yourself a person of your word?

Which raises the question of cheating - or more precisely the definition of it. Sex with another? Love of another? Longing for another? Internet pron... etc

A general discussion starter for ten...

[MsKABC]

Heh! Two scents of victory in one day (although it always smells less sweet after lunch).

If you don't have a response, why not simply refrain from posting?

Do you not know what that means? It was a legitimate response as far as I'm concerned, at least as legitimate as the babble of words I was responding to.

You will never have any kind of victory over me. Unless we race on the track, and that's never likely to happen. I don't view this stuff in the same way that you do :)

[Jantar]

....
The fact that deception is involved makes it all the more despicable. If you can't be honest with the one person you loved enough to marry, you can't be honest, period. You lose any claim to integrity, trustworthiness and future fidelity. You have lied to your mate, your family and your friends in most cases.
.....
So, would a wife who deceives her husband by promising to "...Love, honour..." etc, then doesn't fulfill that promise also be a cheat?

[chucky19]

So, would a wife who deceives her husband by promising to "...Love, honour..." etc, then doesn't fulfill that promise also be a cheat?

Yup, I'm with you Jantar. Too many relationships get to the position that the only promise kept is the infidelity one. Everything else goes out the window, and then they run around shouting "He/She cheated on me" without even considering that they had anything t do with it.

Then again, my first wife was an out and out slapper and it would have happened whatever I did.:beer:

[jrandom]

Do you not know what that means?

I do. Presumably writing in something other than English was an attempt to look clever in the absence of anything of substance to respond with?

:laugh:

Top tip: If you think that a statement is 'babble', point out its actual illogicalities.


You will never have any kind of victory over me.

If you choose to take issue with something I say, and then find yourself running out of ability to respond, that's a victory for the position I've taken, whether you acknowledge it or not.

:sunny:

Although in this case I sniff something slightly more subtle going on. We don't actually disagree on anything of substance. I'm just introducing the concept of ethical shades of grey in response to your emotiveness about 'cowardice' and suchlike.

As you'll see earlier in the thread, I don't support the idea of deception as moral in any circumstances. But what I'm taking the opportunity to expand on now is why folk use it as a tool in response to abusiveness and manipulation.

A woman I know, f'rinstance, was 'rescued' from a thoroughly dreadful marriage some time ago by another man, who she's remained (more or less) happily married to for the last twenty years since.

If she'd gone to her husband of the time to 'negotiate' the situation, rather than just disappearing, violence would have been a very real possibility. She was also clinically depressed and suicidal at the time.

Ethical shades of grey. It'd be lovely if everyone could charge through life fulfilling some form of Randian superhuman ideal, but in reality, people are limited and imperfect, and sometimes it's necessary to fight fire with fire, and emotional and physical abuse with deception.

[Jantar]

... Too many relationships get to the position that the only promise kept is the infidelity one. Everything else goes out the window, ....

That describes my first wife. However she was a great houskeeper and a wonderfull mother to our children; she just stopped being a wife as well. We still get on well, and she and I with our current spouses do get together for dinner from time to time. Her present husband is having the same issues I did, and they are now at the point of breaking up.

[MsKABC]

I do. Presumably writing in something other than English was an attempt to look clever in the absence of anything of substance to respond with?

:laugh:



Quod erat motherfucking demonstrandum.


Top tip: If you think that a statement is 'babble', point out its actual illogicalities.



The point I was making, perhaps too subtley, was that I think you were talking a load of bollocks in order to justify your actions.

[SixPackBack]

The point I was making, perhaps too subtley, was that I think you were talking a load of bollocks in order to justify your actions.

Could you two get a room and get the fluid swapping outa the way??...seriously we're all thinkin' it!

[oldrider]

Reading these threads as they pop up from time to time makes me realise how lucky I am. :yes:

We (Mrs O and I) were married 45 years ago on the first of this month. :shifty:

It's been a bit tricky at times :girlfight: "but"

I think the secret to our success thus far has been due to her impeccable good taste in men and my extremely forgiving nature! :whistle:

Whatever, it seems to work. :love: John.

[MsKABC]

Could you two get a room and get the fluid swapping outa the way??...seriously we're all thinkin' it!


:lol: That's one line I won't be standing in!

Oh, and using a different font really is just a pathetic attempt at making yourself seem funnier (p/t) :D

[MsKABC]

Reading these threads as they pop up from time to time makes me realise how lucky I am. :yes:

We (Mrs O and I) were married 45 years ago on the first of this month. :shifty:

It's been a bit tricky at times :girlfight: "but"

I think the secret to our success thus far has been due to her impeccable good taste in men and my extremely forgiving nature! :whistle:

Whatever, it seems to work. :love: John.

Congratulations OR, truly an achievement in this day and age. My grandfather left his marriage of 35 years for another woman and lived to regret it immensely. Fortunately he and my grandmother were able to strike up a friendship based on mutual respect in their final years. :sunny:

[jrandom]

The point I was making, perhaps too subtley, was that I think you were talking a load of bollocks...

No, don't worry, your point wasn't subtle at all. It was just completely unsupported.

When I think someone's talking bollocks, I go to the effort of explaining where it seems they're wrong. You could try doing the same (or just staying quiet, I suppose).

Not all of us will roll over in response to your contradictory grunts as readily as that well-trained hubby of yours does, y'know.

:msn-wink:

[MotoGirl]

That question requires a definition of "who is a cheater?" I have asked before, so I'll ask again: If sex means so little, and isn't a major sign of love, then why would women call it "cheating" when a man goes elsewher for it?

Sorry, but who said that sex isn't a major part of love and means little?

My original post referred to showing gratitude using words and a kiss (still a physical act). Sex doesn't have to happen every day and I was simply trying to point out that a man shouldn't feel unappreciated if he receives acknowledgement via something other than sex for one day.

[Jantar]

Sorry, but who said that sex isn't a major part of love and means little?

My original post referred to showing gratitude using words and a kiss (still a physical act). Sex doesn't have to happen every day and I was simply trying to point out that a man shouldn't feel unappreciated if he receives acknowledgement via something other than sex for one day.

Sorry if I mis-understood. I took your original post to say that sex wasn't a necceassary part of showing love love. On re-reading you do mention "not getting a blow job on that day". So how long without sex, gratitude, a kiss or any other sign of affection is reasonable before a man looks elsewhere?

[AD345]

Monogamy is a cultural imposition.

No more - no less

[candor]

Women are like dogs... old faithful and can get by without an adulation supply or sex, men are like cats... fickle requiring ego stroking, and the right varied diet, or they may stray. Caveat - applies to adults not studly players!
Proof - it's priest not nuns getting in strife.

[MotoGirl]

So how long without sex, gratitude, a kiss or any other sign of affection is reasonable before a man looks elsewhere?

This is a hard question and I think the answer would change per relationship. I'm picking that it would also depend on the man's tolerance and the circumstances around why the partner isn't showing affection (say, for example, the woman is sleep deprived due to a baby). A drought isn't always a bad thing provided both people understand why it's happening, particularly if it's being caused by something out of their control.

For the 32 years my parents were married, my father never heard mum say the words "I love you" and she showed him no affection other than (scheduled) sex once a month. I wish I was joking about the lack of affection between them - even a kiss was a rare event and we certainly never saw them cuddle or hold hands. This is why I say that tolerance is a factor since dad put up with this rubbish for 32 years. He only left because he found another relationship he wanted to pursue (don't get me started on that one!).

[325rocket]

Women are like dogs...


yeah .... good luck with that one :dodge:

[fire eyes]

Cheating is a choice regardless of circumstance. Just be prepared for the consequences. This is not gender specific. We all have the right to happiness and a reciprocol relationship.

[Skyryder]

Well said!

All very well with couples who are emotionally divorced already then go looking elsewhere but I caught a part of the program the OP was refering to. Now this dude was getting everything at home from his wife...every night! He was then having a sexual affair during his lunch break!
WTF is up with that???:confused:

Ego.


Skyryder

[gammaguy]

I bags you!!!:love:

see,shes gone already.:girlfight:

[Skyryder]

Perhaps us girls SHOULD just all turn gay then..there seems no hope with men since they are so ruled by their primal urges...why do we bother?

Love. The most abused word in the English, or for that matter, any language.


Skyryder

[Skyryder]

Reading these threads as they pop up from time to time makes me realise how lucky I am. :yes:

We (Mrs O and I) were married 45 years ago on the first of this month. :shifty:

It's been a bit tricky at times :girlfight: "but"

I think the secret to our success thus far has been due to her impeccable good taste in men and my extremely forgiving nature! :whistle:

Whatever, it seems to work. :love: John.

Got some catching up. Thirtyfour years on the eighth of this month.

Secret. Just one. Shared values. It is the glue that hold all relationships together. Cheat and with it go the lies and those shared values are values no longer.

[Number One]

see,shes gone already.:girlfight:
I could take you...Trudes is mine biarch :lol:

[Winston001]

Interesting point seeing as the the Maasai (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maasai#Social_organization) practice polygomy.

Not cheating as such but creating a large family group of varying genetic disposition has it's benefits.

Not fair. Here I am explaining the fundamental elements of our primary instincts and you throw bloody polygamy in!! :pinch: Bugger.

Obviously its an abberation - it'll never catch on. ;)

[R6_kid]

Men cheat for one reason and one reason only.

BECAUSE BITCHES BE CRAZY!!!

[Winston001]

Monogamy is a cultural imposition.

No more - no less

Source?

How many major societies are monogamous?

All.

Why would any culture impose monogamy if polyandry or polygamy was the preferred choice of humans?

The answer is that humans are naturally monogamous.

The only major culture which recognises polygamy is Islamic, yet most Moslems are monogamous. Furthermore the Koran has strict requirements = laws, regarding second wives to the extent that its discouraged unless you are wealthy.

[Sharry]

Not all of us will roll over in response to your contradictory grunts as readily as that well-trained hubby of yours does, y'know.

:msn-wink:

Having met said hubby I don't think he had to be trained, maybe unlike yourself, he is naturaly pleasant and respectful.

[Foxzee]

Wot the fuck we are not all perfect...true love is wot we are all searching for...fantasy, dreams, reality are all part of our minds and thoughts we think but at the end of the day this is not always realistic for a number of reasons whether it be family, friends etc.....When you have seen death to many close people or watch people die slowly that is pain and in that process you really think about where your life is going and want to live it......so come on why do we have this sort of post....people will do what they want for many many reasons that will never be clear to anyone else except them and they have a right to feel and choose their course of action from there...and no it doesn't suit everyone but they are doing it for a reason only known to them ....so I say back off and let people get on with it if they are happy.

[Nasty]

Wot the fuck we are not all perfect...true love is wot we are all searching for...fantasy, dreams, reality are all part of our minds and thoughts we think but at the end of the day this is not always realistic for a number of reasons whether it be family, friends etc.....When you have seen death to many close people or watch people die slowly that is pain and in that process you really think about where your life is going and want to live it......so come on why do we have this sort of post....people will do what they want for many many reasons that will never be clear to anyone else except them and they have a right to feel and choose their course of action from there...and no it doesn't suit everyone but they are doing it for a reason only known to them ....so I say back off and let people get on with it if they are happy.


This thread originated from an Oprah show ... its was a man on there talking about a new book ... that opened a interesting line for the poster. That some people are putting individual situations into this thread is silly - as the orginal poster did not ask for that .. but for discussion on a book.

That is why this thread is ... the way a thread takes on a life of its own - reflects the time and space that the users of a forum system are in ... should it be that way .. probably - but should there be personal attacks - NO ... there is no need for them ....its a pity when things turn that way ... because the reality is that the original poster saw a book being promoted and asked questions. If people are unhappy with their decisions - that is their choice, airing dirty laundary of others - is just plain rude and unthoughtful.

[Edbear]

So, would a wife who deceives her husband by promising to "...Love, honour..." etc, then doesn't fulfill that promise also be a cheat?

Yup! And vise-versa. Marriage is a two-way street, it takes two to make it work but only one to break it. A good marriage is the whole package, but in my opinion and in the Bible, (not that this need be a religious discussion, I said that infidelity hurts no matter who or what you are), sexual infidelity is the only acceptable reason for divorce. I have the greatest respect for a person who can be the "victim" of infidelity, yet forgive the cheater and keep the marriage together.

I doubt the marriage can ever be the same again, though. Perhaps there are those here who have done this and can tell their experience?

MAny marriages drift apart for the reasons you have given and that is sad.


Reading these threads as they pop up from time to time makes me realise how lucky I am. :yes:

We (Mrs O and I) were married 45 years ago on the first of this month. :shifty:

It's been a bit tricky at times :girlfight: "but"

I think the secret to our success thus far has been due to her impeccable good taste in men and my extremely forgiving nature! :whistle:

Whatever, it seems to work. :love: John.

Congrats! And goodonyermate! I tried telling my Missus that but it just resulted in hilarious laughter...


Monogamy is a cultural imposition.

No more - no less

You married...?

[Edbear]

Heard and totally respected - but to use your words and enlarge the topic a little...


Semantic correction on this one. There's a number of promises made, to have hold, love, honour and obey are usually among them. That's a lot of work - but all worth investing in.



Which raises the question of cheating - or more precisely the definition of it. Sex with another? Love of another? Longing for another? Internet pron... etc

A general discussion starter for ten...

See my post above for my opinion on divorce, but you raise points I agree with. Fantasising about another person or viewing pornography is, in my own opinion disrespectful of your mate. Specifically, if a wife sees her husband viewing porn, how does she feel? Pornstars are usually attractive with nice figures, (or so I've heard...), so if one's mate is feeling less than perfect it can reinforce her insecurities.

I know many men here will argue with this, but all I say, is, "Why are you viewing porngraphy?" "What, really, is your marriage like?"

[Edbear]

This thread originated from an Oprah show ... its was a man on there talking about a new book ... that opened a interesting line for the poster. That some people are putting individual situations into this thread is silly - as the orginal poster did not ask for that .. but for discussion on a book.

That is why this thread is ... the way a thread takes on a life of its own - reflects the time and space that the users of a forum system are in ... should it be that way .. probably - but should there be personal attacks - NO ... there is no need for them ....its a pity when things turn that way ... because the reality is that the original poster saw a book being promoted and asked questions. If people are unhappy with their decisions - that is their choice, airing dirty laundary of others - is just plain rude and unthoughtful.


Good post! I'll try not to be too personal...:shutup:

[jrandom]

Fantasising about another person or viewing pornography is, in my own opinion disrespectful of your mate.

Fair call. Not necessarily an opinion all would share, but fair call.

Presumably if the pornography is to both spouse's tastes and used as part of their shared sex life, that criticism no longer applies, though? Or would you still consider the viewing of it 'disrespectful'?

Bear in mind, too, that we have a number of polyamorists and swingers on this forum, some of whom have enjoyed long and happy marriages incorporating those slightly less conventional lifestyles.

I'd suggest that it's not so much any exact activities that should be tagged as 'disrespectful' or 'unfaithful', but rather an attitude of selfishness, disregard and dishonesty.

[CookMySock]

Yup, that anomally has me stumped too.

Guy roots lots of women: He's a stud.

Woman roots lots of guys: She's a slut.Yeah I don't get it either. It's not fair to label females because they like to bonk (as well). Everyone likes a bonk with some tasty new partner - its yummy. Time to quit getting so insecure about it I reckon, and just enjoy what we all like. :buggerd:

Steve

[Edbear]

Fair call. Not necessarily an opinion all would share, but fair call.

Presumably if the pornography is to both spouse's tastes and used as part of their shared sex life, that criticism no longer applies, though? Or would you still consider the viewing of it 'disrespectful'?

Bear in mind, too, that we have a number of polyamorists and swingers on this forum, some of whom have enjoyed long and happy marriages incorporating those slightly less conventional lifestyles.

I'd suggest that it's not so much any exact activities that should be tagged as 'disrespectful' or 'unfaithful', but rather an attitude of selfishness, disregard and dishonesty.

Fair comment, too. I did say it was my own opinion and obviously not one shared by all, and I agree that it is the heart motivation and attitude that is at the root.

However I believe that a study of human nature lends weight to the view. I doubt "open" marriages are truly happy, especially for the woman. Regardless, though, I do know that a truly monogamous couple who really love and care for each other, who work on building a close bond, can achieve a relationship beyond anything else on Earth. They truly become "as one".

Such a relationship is built on an attitude of "selflessness, regard and honesty" and I have always said that it is attitude and motive that counts above action - though attitude will guide one's actions.

[Winston001]

I have the greatest respect for a person who can be the "victim" of infidelity, yet forgive the cheater and keep the marriage together.

I doubt the marriage can ever be the same again, though. Perhaps there are those here who have done this and can tell their experience?



There is an excellent book on this very topic - After the Affair - http://www.fishpond.co.nz/Books/Health_Wellbeing/Family_Relationships/Interpersonal_Relations/product_info/650918/

Recommended. Down to earth advice based on studies of marriages which continued. Its more common than we'd think.

[Skyryder]

Source?

How many major societies are monogamous?

All.

Why would any culture impose monogamy if polyandry or polygamy was the preferred choice of humans?

The answer is that humans are naturally monogamous.


This is incorrect. There is an element in some relationships called love.

It transcends the physical attributes of lust and ego.

One of the most famouse of these relationships was Shah Jahan the builder of the Taj Mahal. As total ruler of the Moghul Empire his wishes were absolute law. As such he had the choice of all the unmarried woman within the realms of his empire yer he married only one. Such was his devotion to his wife Mumtaz Mahal he was not known to sleep with any other woman.

There are other instances where men of power who have the option of other woman decide not too becasue of love and this too is natural state other than wanting to stick it in all and sundry.

Skyryder

[vifferman]

It really fucking depressing to read this thread actually and see that a large percentage of guys seem to believe they are almost doomed to cheat given their 'instincts and blah blah fucking blah'....frankly I still think that is bollocks and it implies that men are not capable of 'free will or self control'...surely they are more sophisticated than the apes we all used to be.
Mebbe not.:wacko:
While it would be nice to think that, the primal urges can be very strong, to the point that the small brain can easily overwhelm the big(ger) brain in the right circumstances (loneliness +/- drunkenness +/- temptation +/- distance from home ++ horniness).

[Number One]

Mebbe not.:wacko:
While it would be nice to think that, the primal urges can be very strong, to the point that the small brain can easily overwhelm the big(ger) brain in the right circumstances (loneliness +/- drunkenness +/- temptation +/- distance from home ++ horniness).
Hrmmmm...yup depressing alrighty.
I must say though I am jealous of the fact you fellas can pee anywhere WHILE standing up :msn-wink:

[98tls]

Mebbe not.:wacko:
While it would be nice to think that, the primal urges can be very strong, to the point that the small brain can easily overwhelm the big(ger) brain in the right circumstances (loneliness +/- drunkenness +/- temptation +/- distance from home ++ horniness). In saying that the reward for listening to the bigger brain is far larger than by comparison the reward for just saying fuck it she will never find out anyway though i will admit myself to back in the day listening to the smaller one,guilt sucks.I guess for me anyway its just a matter of not wanting to hurt someone by going through with it,simply not worth it.

[vifferman]

Hrmmmm...yup depressing alrighty.
Well, hey - it IS y'know. Especially when you wimmins make mock of the fact we are so pathetic as to be able to be totally led around by our small brains. :o


I must say though I am jealous of the fact you fellas can pee anywhere WHILE standing up :msn-wink:
That is an advantage at times. :yes:
Like when I was in Brussells, we were late getting the rental car back, rather lost, didn't know where any public toilets were apart from the one in railway station when we eventually arrived. And that said WC was several minutes walk away, there was very likely a queue, and it cost 0.50 Euroshekels.
Fuckit.
Burst bladder / wet pants, or what? :confused:


Just drained the lizard in a dark corner of the rental car parking gargre. :o
Oh, the relief!! :lol:

[Winston001]

This is incorrect. There is an element in some relationships called love.

It transcends the physical attributes of lust and ego.

One of the most famouse of these relationships was Shah Jahan the builder of the Taj Mahal. As total ruler of the Moghul Empire his wishes were absolute law. As such he had the choice of all the unmarried woman within the realms of his empire yer he married only one. Such was his devotion to his wife Mumtaz Mahal he was not known to sleep with any other woman.

There are other instances where men of power who have the option of other woman decide not too becasue of love and this too is natural state other than wanting to stick it in all and sundry.

Skyryder

Err....yes. You consolidate my point albeit using the emotive bond of love. Which I enthusiastically agree with but have avoided thus far in this thread.

Shah Jahan is also famous for almost bankrupting his empire which is why the foundations of the black Taj are as far as he got. He was deposed and imprisoned by his son in Agra Fort (absolutely worth seeing - a fortress/town) where he died looking across to the Taj Mahal.

[Drew]

I'm sure no-body noticed, but I have deleted my post from earlier in this thread.

I have now heard a very different side to the saga and would far rather stay the hell out of anyone elses business. Christ knows I barely have a handle on what's going on in my own life.

To be totally honest, it was pretty easy to retract, since it only really presented me in a bad light to begin with.

Peace out folks, who are we to judge?:done:

[Her_C4]

I'm sure no-body noticed, .....
I did Drew - and thank you.


Peace out folks, who are we to judge?:done:

Exactly - 'nuff said.

[carver]

i do it because i can ands its good fun and i can handle the heat no worries

[Sully60]

i do it because i can ands its good fun and i can handle the heat no worries

How hot can it get when you cheat on Sidewinder, I mean really?

[carver]

How hot can it get when you cheat on Sidewinder, I mean really?

well, sometimes some hot stud comes along like DUCATI_HARD and i get all hard!

[oldrider]

Hrmmmm...yup depressing alrighty.
I must say though I am jealous of the fact you fellas can pee anywhere WHILE standing up :msn-wink:

But you gals can pee further than we can standing up!

Just make the rules....."No Hands"....and your all winners! :killingme John.

[Number One]

But you gals can pee further than we can standing up!

Just make the rules....."No Hands"....and your all winners! :killingme John.
I'm confused...should I feel proud, disturbed or turned on? I am also having trouble visualising what exactly you mean.

[oldrider]

I'm confused...should I feel proud, disturbed or turned on? I am also having trouble visualising what exactly you mean.

All of the above but you may need a little work on your visualising equipment! :rolleyes:

To think, I have always held you in the highest esteem in that (the visualising) department too. :lol: John.

[Akzle]

asides from epic spammage, what the fuck, how the the fuck (and where the fuck do they still use) telegram hacking??