Heat pumps?

[Tank]

Does anyone here know much about Heat Pumps?

Talking to Mum and Dad on the phone the other day and complaining how bloody hot it is.

Go get a heat pump was their reply. Yeah Right - Up stairs is about 150m2 alone and has glass on three sides - it will cost a fortune - not going to happen.

So they rang up this afternoon and offered to set up the house with Heat Pumps (sweeeeeeeeet!) Way to go mum and dad!!!!!!

I know that Fujitsu and Mitsi are the 'big brands' - I know nothing about them and am just starting researching now - but if KB has any experts - please come forward with your pearls of wisdom.

[Winston001]

Fresh air ma man, open those windows. :mobile:

[Matt Bleck]

Chopper is the man to talk to.

[Sully60]

Hmm, the old adage of 100w per square metre plus solar gain and internal heat loads from appliances.

If you could draw a wee diagram showing dimensions,the orientation of the room and the area of glass I could give you a figure on the kW needed to do the job.
Your location says just outside my window but I can't see you there, I suspect Choppa would be the man whe it comes to the actual installation.

[yungatart]

We have a Daikin, excellent unit and one of the larger models on the market
(7.5kw), at least when we got it.
Would certainly recommend it, especially when it is humid!

[Squiggles]

i think Choppa works in this area...

[Nasty]

All companies involved in installation will come and do a free quote .. they just want the business.

[The Pastor]

Get the one mark ellis is in on tv. Hes so cool

[Sully60]

Get the one mark ellis is in on tv. Hes so cool

That's DVS, opening the windows does the same thing.

[vifferman]

We had two heat pumps installed a couple of years ago - the company that quoted and installed them did lots of different brands, but recommended Mitsubishi Heavy Industries (separate company from Mitsubishi Electric, same parent company, and does most of the development which is passed/sold onto the M Electric). We're really happy with it, but just wished we'd put a bigger unit in our lounge (only $150 more, and would've been more betterer).

I contacted lots of companies - only two (2!) responded in goodly time, some didn't reply at all, and one contacted us two weeks after we'd had the installation done! The one we didn't go with didn't pay attention to what I asked him to quote, so he didn't get the job.

[Oakie]

That's DVS, opening the windows does the same thing.

I can assure you it doesn't. My DVS is just a shitload better than opening any number of windows ... especially in winter.

[peasea]

Does anyone here know much about Heat Pumps?

Talking to Mum and Dad on the phone the other day and complaining how bloody hot it is.

Go get a heat pump was their reply. Yeah Right - Up stairs is about 150m2 alone and has glass on three sides - it will cost a fortune - not going to happen.

So they rang up this afternoon and offered to set up the house with Heat Pumps (sweeeeeeeeet!) Way to go mum and dad!!!!!!

I know that Fujitsu and Mitsi are the 'big brands' - I know nothing about them and am just starting researching now - but if KB has any experts - please come forward with your pearls of wisdom.

I have some experience and Fujitsu hasn't got the best name. I was involved in the installation of some Sanyo units a while back, nice stuff. Mitsy seems ok, better than Fujitsu. PM me the area of your pad and I can get some sums done for ya. Nothing worse than having a unit that's working too hard to heat/cool an area, you'll burn it out.

[peasea]

I can assure you it doesn't. My DVS is just a shitload better than opening any number of windows ... especially in winter.

You're quite right.

[Winston001]

I hope you've got heavy drapes and/or double glazing on those windows. That's the first thing to do. Passive heating/cooling.

I have a Daiken, very good, no complaints.

[Taz]

We have a big Daikin in a large area. Works a treat. Doesn't make the coffee or feed the baby tho.

[325rocket]

That's DVS, opening the windows does the same thing.

i think its actually H.R.V

[GIXser]

definately Get Choppa on the job, he installs LG heat pumps, not only will you support his racing, you will also get a wicked pump, who knows Choppa may even show you a few lines on the track as part of the deal.:)

[Sully60]

i think its actually H.R.V



EDIT: Drrrrrr I just saw the HRV add with Marc Ellis, thats what you meant!

[Beemer]

We have a big Daikin in a large area. Works a treat. Doesn't make the coffee or feed the baby tho.

Sue them for false advertising!

[McDuck]

Antuy has one in her house (her body is farked, 50 years ina wheil chair will do that to ya) and it has payed for itself many times over because she went from a docters visit every two weeks to maby one evey two months.

Highly recomended.

[Dave Lobster]

We have a big Daikin in a large area. Works a treat. Doesn't make the coffee or feed the baby tho.

You need an au pair for that.

[ManDownUnder]

You need an au pair for that.

...make sure she has a nice pair too... :eek:

[Tank]

OK- got 3 quotes in today.

Fijitsu was first. Guy didn't measure and actually said bedrooms are all the same size - so I dont need to look.

He didn't know what the running cost were (said he had one at home for 4 years but his wife paid the bills), and his mounting position was terrible. He actually suggested we put it in an adjoining room and left the double doors open as it would make the install easier and save us $300.

He was a director or the company. - and they only sell heat pumps

Fucken terrible.

Second guy was selling Mitsi's

Didnt measure, and specified a smaller unit, that when we did the measuring after he left was going to be right at the top (or just) past its usable range.

Still he had good ideas for mounting. But everything was very casual and while he gave me more faith than the first muppet, I wasnt sure.

Last guy Daikin - came, measured each wall, checked insulation, measured windows and entered that along with the aspect, number of lights, size of TV, other IT kit, number of people normally in the room etc etc etc into a application to properly calculate the heating / cooling needs.

He was also the only one who came with literature for us to read / keep and gave a written quote (others were verbal only).

He was more expensive (about 15%) more than the others - but guess who got our business.

Didnt get a change to PM Choppa as I needed to have this resolved today.

[Cosmo]

Thought you might be interested to know we have two Daikin heatpumps (7kw in the lounge and a 5kw in the hallway) In the winter we run them 24 hours a day, 7 days a week (16 degrees when we are not home and 19 degrees when we are.) Only tacked on approx $25 per week to the power bill and don't have to lug the coal and wood in anymore.

[Sully60]

Thought you might be interested to know we have two Daikin heatpumps (7kw in the lounge and a 5kw in the hallway) In the winter we run them 24 hours a day, 7 days a week (16 degrees when we are not home and 19 degrees when we are.) Only tacked on approx $25 per week to the power bill and don't have to lug the coal and wood in anymore.

Yeah, some of the later model inverter Heat pumps are getting C.O.P figures of around 4 and 5 on heating, unbeatable value for money and convenience. Good for the environment too, so you can burn even more fuel without feeilng gulity!

[Tank]

Thought you might be interested to know we have two Daikin heatpumps (7kw in the lounge and a 5kw in the hallway) In the winter we run them 24 hours a day, 7 days a week (16 degrees when we are not home and 19 degrees when we are.) Only tacked on approx $25 per week to the power bill and don't have to lug the coal and wood in anymore.

Thanks for that - interesting. It is good to get real world indication.

I ant bling you as thanks (fucken infractions) - so someone lay a green on him for me.

[Deano]

Be careful where you place the outdoor unit. Too close to a neighbours bedroom and you may have noise issues.

Some units exceed local noise rules at night time.

Avoid a dispute with your neighbour and timely/costly modifications to quieten the unit.

[Fatjim]

farking council workers

[Winter]

Anybody know anything about the heat pumps that double as a hot water cylinder as well? The theory is during summer you can use the heat pumped out of your house to heat the hot water!

Sounds good to me as i want a heat pump - but I also desperately need a new HW cylinder.

[Deano]

farking council workers

Who end up resolving disputes between neighbours from hell, because they are too stupid to discuss things or have any consideration for their neighbours.

Then again, I blame (some of) the heat pump companies/installers - they DO know of the implications but will tell you there is no problem.

Location location location.

[Sully60]

Anybody know anything about the heat pumps that double as a hot water cylinder as well? The theory is during summer you can use the heat pumped out of your house to heat the hot water!

Sounds good to me as i want a heat pump - but I also desperately need a new HW cylinder.

You can buy heat pump hot water cylinders but they don't use rejected heat from the house, they use an outdoor condenser similar to a Air Conditioning unit.
They're a pretty enegry efficient thing but the limitations of size and the refrigeration process means achieveing water temps of 55c generally requires supplementary electric heating.
You could build one though, it would be quite an Exercise in engineering and would only really be feasible in summer as the condenser would be taking the heat energy from the air which means it would blow cold air 24/7. Controls for that would be the expensive part.

[MsKABC]

Last guy Daikin - came, measured each wall, checked insulation, measured windows and entered that along with the aspect, number of lights, size of TV, other IT kit, number of people normally in the room etc etc etc into a application to properly calculate the heating / cooling needs.

He was also the only one who came with literature for us to read / keep and gave a written quote (others were verbal only).

He was more expensive (about 15%) more than the others - but guess who got our business.



That's so bloody typical innit? We take exactly the same attitude - the company that gives a more professional service gets our money every time, even if they are more expensive.


I ant bling you as thanks (fucken infractions) - so someone lay a green on him for me.

Done :)

[Sully60]

Just out of interest Tank, what W/m2 figure did the Daikin dealer end up with for the various spaces?

[Tank]

Just out of interest Tank, what W/m2 figure did the Daikin dealer end up with for the various spaces?

6kw to cover the lounge (thats what goes in next week)

2.5 or 3kw for the bedroom. (not sure if I want one there yet)

8kw for the theatre room and downstairs. Will put in once we have had time with the first to make sure we like it.

[Sully60]

6kw to cover the lounge (thats what goes in next week)

2.5 or 3kw for the bedroom. (not sure if I want one there yet)

8kw for the theatre room and downstairs. Will put in once we have had time with the first to make sure we like it.


Sorry, how big is the lounge?

I take it they've recommended Hi Wall units? The only thing I can think of that you possibly won't like is the visual disturbance that one of these creates, otherwise you will loovve it, all year round!

[ttnz]

We had a simalar experiance with every dealer/installer giving us conflicting advice, if we had listened we would have ended up with half a dozen units scattered through out yhe house, we ended up going with 1 panasonic 8kw mounted in the living/dinning and it heats the whole house easy

[Fatjim]

You can buy heat pump hot water cylinders but they don't use rejected heat from the house, they use an outdoor condenser similar to a Air Conditioning unit.
They're a pretty enegry efficient thing but the limitations of size and the refrigeration process means achieveing water temps of 55c generally requires supplementary electric heating.
You could build one though, it would be quite an Exercise in engineering and would only really be feasible in summer as the condenser would be taking the heat energy from the air which means it would blow cold air 24/7. Controls for that would be the expensive part.

Here's an example of one that could use ducts, although even the outside ones coulds be adapterd to a spiggot, although I don't know about the reduction in air flow this would have. You could running duct to the cieling space of the house to get the warmest air

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Building-renovation/Plumbing-gas/Water-cylinders-heaters/auction-201475190.htm

Efficiency is about 300% at 10 degrees to 400% at 25 degrees.

But this kind of stuff really F!@#ks me off. Its "Eco" bullshit. You pay up front to someone to save you money in the long run, and you end up save a couple of hundred dollars over 10 years because it costs so bloddy much to buy and install. Rheem, want $4000 for the same thing!

[Tank]

Sorry, how big is the lounge?

I take it they've recommended Hi Wall units? The only thing I can think of that you possibly won't like is the visual disturbance that one of these creates, otherwise you will loovve it, all year round!

Lounge is 8m x 8m.

My wife dosn't like the look - says it makes her think shes living in a hotel :argh:

[JimO]

expect a big power bill, my only heating is a big masport logburner, downstairs in a 260m2 two story house with 10 ft stud height plus a ceiling fan to move the heat about, i wouldnt have a heat pump if you gave it to me

[breakaway]

According to this site http://www.consumer.org.nz/topic.asp?category=Appliances&subcategory=Prices%20%26%20reliability&docid=2316&topic=Appliance%20running%20costs&title=Running%20costs&contenttype=summary&bhcp=1, a Heat pump w/ 4.4 kW heating output costs 36 cents/hour to run. That's pretty steep!

[birdhandler]

You may be better looking at a solaer system as there is a $1000.00 subsidy either as a straight off grant or towards your interest costs see here
http://solar.energywise.govt.nz/
An average household installation is $2-3k depending on where you live
There is also an explatation of heat pump hot water heaters on this site
Good luck cheers

[McDuck]

According to this site http://www.consumer.org.nz/topic.asp?category=Appliances&subcategory=Prices%20%26%20reliability&docid=2316&topic=Appliance%20running%20costs&title=Running%20costs&contenttype=summary&bhcp=1, a Heat pump w/ 4.4 kW heating output costs 36 cents/hour to run. That's pretty steep!

I would guess that is iif it is running at full thorttle trying to bring the rooms temp up from real cold. I would say that would be closer to 5-10c per hour if the unit was a good one with its work load only matiaining the temprature...

[Sully60]

But this kind of stuff really F!@#ks me off. Its "Eco" bullshit. You pay up front to someone to save you money in the long run, and you end up save a couple of hundred dollars over 10 years because it costs so bloddy much to buy and install. Rheem, want $4000 for the same thing!

That's a lot of money for something that's basically a fridge attached to a hot water cylinder! High COP figures though.

The same thing could be built out of parts for much less, of course you have to know what you're doing but it would be realistic to build something for half that cost(depending on how you account for the cost of your own labour). Using 'grey' water to preheat incoming water helps too but it requires a lot of digging ,plumbing and copper pipe.
Yeah the eco marketing thing gives me the shits too, and hey guess what it won't go away any time soon, sheeple love to think they're doing their bit to save the planet and the wolves always end up well fed.


Lounge is 8m x 8m.

My wife dosn't like the look - says it makes her think shes living in a hotel :argh:

Ha, a common complaint! The only way around that is a ducted unit (either in ceiling or under floor) just add about three grand to the quote and see what the missus says then.
So they basically gone for just under 100w/m2, you must have good insulation and relatively little glass? I'd expect the Daikin dealer was pretty thorough as it sounded in your earlier posts so I'd expect the system was sized for peak loads on both modes (heating loads are generally substantially smaller than cooling loads). Inverter units are generally the most efficient running at around 75% loading so I'd say the 6kW unit would be just right. In saying that I installled a 5kW unit to a 100m2 ish house and positioned it in the lounge to blow down the hallway. It heats the whole house quite effectively, cooling on the other hand?



expect a big power bill, my only heating is a big masport logburner, downstairs in a 260m2 two story house with 10 ft stud height plus a ceiling fan to move the heat about, i wouldnt have a heat pump if you gave it to me

Of course it will if you're using it in the summer for cooling, you don't get something you didn't have before for nothing. When the units are on heating mode that's when the money is saved. Sure you can't beat the ambience of a wood fire and if you get free or cheap firewood well that's the clincher but if you have to convert from electric or gas then your heating bill will be smaller.


According to this site http://www.consumer.org.nz/topic.asp?category=Appliances&subcategory=Prices%20%26%20reliability&docid=2316&topic=Appliance%20running%20costs&title=Running%20costs&contenttype=summary&bhcp=1, a Heat pump w/ 4.4 kW heating output costs 36 cents/hour to run. That's pretty steep!
Go find out what it costs to run a 4.4 kW electric heater for an hour.

[Jantar]

We have a 6.3 kW Mitsibushi unit which is now quite a few years old. We just wouldn't be without it. Its great for helping to cool the house in summer, but is really under-specced for that task. During the coldest parts of winter we use our log burner, but in autumn and spring when we just need a bit of heating first thing in the morning and late evening, the heat pump is just perfect.

[imdying]

They're a pretty enegry efficient thing but the limitations of size and the refrigeration process means achieveing water temps of 55c generally requires supplementary electric heating.
You could build one though, it would be quite an Exercise in engineering and would only really be feasible in summer as the condenser would be taking the heat energy from the air which means it would blow cold air 24/7. Controls for that would be the expensive part.A friend built one for his parents. No problem achieveing water temps, easy to build, works well in both summer and winter, thermostat controls it, no external controls except an on off switch for when yougo on holiday. I think it cost about $500 all up, but used a free second hand outdoor unit. Used a KillAWatt to measure the savings before and after, was well worth it.

[oldguy]

Lounge is 8m x 8m.

My wife dosn't like the look - says it makes her think shes living in a hotel :argh:

I agree, I hate high wall units, see them on your wall, look like your at the doctor's clinic.

Unit up in the ceiling duct it to each room. lineal grills in the lounge, smaller nice circular cone shape ones in the bed room

[hayd3n]

that's dvs, opening the windows does the same thing.

hrv!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[hayd3n]

expect a big power bill, my only heating is a big masport logburner, downstairs in a 260m2 two story house with 10 ft stud height plus a ceiling fan to move the heat about, i wouldnt have a heat pump if you gave it to me

neva had a bill over 180 a month for 2 years and we have a 3 heat pumps !!!!!!!!!!!!!! 3 people 20 bucks a week each for power is all good

[eldog]

OK- got 3 quotes in today.

Fijitsu was first. Guy didn't measure and actually said bedrooms are all the same size - so I dont need to look.

He didn't know what the running cost were (said he had one at home for 4 years but his wife paid the bills), and his mounting position was terrible. He actually suggested we put it in an adjoining room and left the double doors open as it would make the install easier and save us $300.

He was a director or the company. - and they only sell heat pumps

Fucken terrible.

Second guy was selling Mitsi's

Didnt measure, and specified a smaller unit, that when we did the measuring after he left was going to be right at the top (or just) past its usable range.

Still he had good ideas for mounting. But everything was very casual and while he gave me more faith than the first muppet, I wasnt sure.

Last guy Daikin - came, measured each wall, checked insulation, measured windows and entered that along with the aspect, number of lights, size of TV, other IT kit, number of people normally in the room etc etc etc into a application to properly calculate the heating / cooling needs.

He was also the only one who came with literature for us to read / keep and gave a written quote (others were verbal only).

He was more expensive (about 15%) more than the others - but guess who got our business.

Didnt get a change to PM Choppa as I needed to have this resolved today.


Anyone else had experience with heat pumps? I am sure they need to be specd properly.

Specifically floor mounted units versus high wall

a few people I have spoken to say its annoying to have warm/cool air blowing down from above.

Does anyone have a ducted system rather than a high wall - ala HRV/DVS duct outlets?

[merv]

We have 4 hi-wall and they are fine. Just don't mount them where you are going to sit right under them. Once the room is at the right temperature they idle away nicely.

[Drew]

Ducted system all the way if you've got the budget, and space in the ceiling or under the floor.

[Virago]

Anyone else had experience with heat pumps? I am sure they need to be specd properly.

Specifically floor mounted units versus high wall

a few people I have spoken to say its annoying to have warm/cool air blowing down from above.

Does anyone have a ducted system rather than a high wall - ala HRV/DVS duct outlets?

We've got a Mitsubishi Hypercore in our lounge, floor mounted under the wall-mounted telly. Its only downside is that it blows warm air across the floor, by the time the air reaches our couch at the other side it feels like a cool draught on our legs. So yeah, wall or floor mount, plan your air flow carefully.

[russd7]

first winter with heat pump.
I miss my log burner :(

lets start with the positives so far.
easy and clean and wife likes it because its clean and easy

now the negs,
1/ struggles when weather cooler, spends most of its time defrosting
2/ power bills up considerably
3/ I miss my log burner
4/ power out no heat
5/ cant cook on a heatpump
6/ no sitting watching the flames play around the wood (hey i am a volly Fire fighter, its research)
7/ i miss my log burner
8/ the air seems a lot drier, I wake up with sticky eyes and we don't leave it going all night
9/ I have two chainsaws in the shed with nothing to do
10/ i miss my log burner
11/ did i say i like my log burner

[Scuba_Steve]

Heat pumps take large amounts of cash & turn it into moderate amounts of heat.
Problem with heat pumps in many NZ homes is that the homes aren't built for them, they were designed for woodburners, they breathe something which is an advantage with woodburners but makes heat pumps largely ineffective as they for the most part need a sealed environment like the Euro's quad-glazed, fully insulated, fully sealed homes.

[eldog]

I have a open fire - Jet...something

needs a lot of air flow to get going.

IMO looks nice but not a lot of heat out.

Have tried other fires (Masport) putout a lot of heat and didn't use as much fuel.
Dual burn flow path.

due to lack of cold weather haven't used it for a few years.

[Drew]

We've got a Mitsubishi Hypercore in our lounge, floor mounted under the wall-mounted telly. Its only downside is that it blows warm air across the floor, by the time the air reaches our couch at the other side it feels like a cool draught on our legs. So yeah, wall or floor mount, plan your air flow carefully.
You should be able to turn the bottom output off. Read the destruction manual.

first winter with heat pump.
I miss my log burner :(

lets start with the positives so far.
easy and clean and wife likes it because its clean and easy

now the negs,
1/ struggles when weather cooler, spends most of its time defrosting
2/ power bills up considerably
3/ I miss my log burner
4/ power out no heat
5/ cant cook on a heatpump
6/ no sitting watching the flames play around the wood (hey i am a volly Fire fighter, its research)
7/ i miss my log burner
8/ the air seems a lot drier, I wake up with sticky eyes and we don't leave it going all night
9/ I have two chainsaws in the shed with nothing to do
10/ i miss my log burner
11/ did i say i like my log burnerYour unit is undersized.


Heat pumps take large amounts of cash & turn it into moderate amounts of heat.
Problem with heat pumps in many NZ homes is that the homes aren't built for them, they were designed for woodburners, they breathe something which is an advantage with woodburners but makes heat pumps largely ineffective as they for the most part need a sealed environment like the Euro's quad-glazed, fully insulated, fully sealed homes.You don't have the slightest idea what you are talking about. Why have you replied with this rubbish?

Yeah, log burners need air...the stuff they draw in is from outside and is cold. So it's kinda flawed like that.

Heat pumps don't need a sealed room. That would be fucken stupid. They heat or cool the air in the room, whatever loss might occur will happen no matter what you heat with.

You're a fucken idiot

[Grumph]

Your unit is undersized.

Yeah, log burners need air...the stuff they draw in is from outside and is cold. So it's kinda flawed like that.


Do you know where Riverton is Drew ? hint - f'n cold....

If I was doing a new build in an area where logburners were allowed, I'd do a ducted air inlet from outside to feed the fire.
My inlaws had a setup like that and it was VERY good.

And for a lot of us, the ability to cook on a logburner when - not if - the power goes out is bloody useful.

[Drew]

Do you know where Riverton is Drew ? hint - f'n cold....

If I was doing a new build in an area where logburners were allowed, I'd do a ducted air inlet from outside to feed the fire.
My inlaws had a setup like that and it was VERY good.

And for a lot of us, the ability to cook on a logburner when - not if - the power goes out is bloody useful.
I'm not suggesting that heat pumps are the only option, or even the best for certain areas.

It's just that when the boom started, every other guy selling them was just chucking them in willy nilly without properly speccing them. So there's a whole 'generation' of installs that lead people to think they're shit. Taking everything into account for an install, they should all but always work as desired.

[Maha]

Having the right size installed in the first place helps. We measured our home in total and got the 6kw system as suggested. Where we live can be as low as -4 and foggy, the heat pump get to the desired temp and then just ticks over.

[george formby]

Do you know where Riverton is Drew ? hint - f'n cold....

If I was doing a new build in an area where logburners were allowed, I'd do a ducted air inlet from outside to feed the fire.
My inlaws had a setup like that and it was VERY good.

And for a lot of us, the ability to cook on a logburner when - not if - the power goes out is bloody useful.

Exacary my plan when we do our reno. Pull down the old brick chimney which seems to be the biggest cause of keeping the house consistently cold, knock down a wall and stick in a modern log burner drawing air from under the house rather than from the gaps in the windows and doors.
And yeah, having hot soup when the lights go out (again) is a big bonus.

Anyone want an Art Deco fireplace, original, and very good condition?

Oh, good thread. I've thought of a heat pump but without a lot of ducting in the roof it would struggle to heat my collection of little rooms I think.

Oh 2.0. I'm gonna put a fan in the air inlet so I no longer need to use my heat gun to get it roaring. I love heat guns.

[BMWST?]

Having the right size installed in the first place helps. We measured our home in total and got the 6kw system as suggested. Where we live can be as low as -4 and foggy, the heat pump get to the desired temp and then just ticks over.
6 kw isnt a particularly large unit Its only the equivalent of two and a half 2.4 kw heaters.If 6 kw keeps your whole house nice and cosy you must have a more modern home and or good insulation and draught proofing.

[Katman]

I've heard that the guys who install heat pumps more often than not end up sniffing your undies.

[BMWST?]

there seems to be some common mis conceptions about heat pumps.All they are is a fairly efficient way to heat a space.They can produce more heat than the ammount of electricity they use.The ultimate heater i think would be a modern efficient wood burner where the firewood was free.All the most modern log burners,wood burners,pellet burners draw the air they need for combustion from outside the space they are heating.Our pellet burner is mounted in the old fireplace and draws the air required from the old fireplace cavity which in turn is supplied from the vented flue.The pellet burner is sealed from the room.

[eldog]

there seems to be some common mis conceptions about heat pumps.All they are is a fairly efficient way to heat a space.They can produce more heat than the ammount of electricity they use.The ultimate heater i think would be a modern efficient wood burner where the firewood was free.All the most modern log burners,wood burners,pellet burners draw the air they need for combustion from outside the space they are heating.Our pellet burner is mounted in the old fireplace and draws the air required from the old fireplace cavity which in turn is supplied from the vented flue.The pellet burner is sealed from the room.

Correct me if I am wrong.'pellet burner is sealed from the room'

your pallet burner takes air from the outside, burns it, the exhaust goes out thru the flue,

heat(and I suppose light) is transferred through the walls of the unit into the room.

the reason I ask is that I have an exiting fireplace which is a better light source than a heat one.
I could replace it with a pallet burner with ducted air from the outside - so its not using the warm air from the room

I was contemplating getting rid of the fireplace altogether - its in the middle of the room

[Ocean1]

Correct me if I am wrong.'pellet burner is sealed from the room'

your pallet burner takes air from the outside, burns it, the exhaust goes out thru the flue,

heat(and I suppose light) is transferred through the walls of the unit into the room.

the reason I ask is that I have an exiting fireplace which is a better light source than a heat one.
I could replace it with a pallet burner with ducted air from the outside - so its not using the warm air from the room

I was contemplating getting rid of the fireplace altogether - its in the middle of the room

A mate has a pellet burner, loves it.

I like the idea of them, and they can put out a lot more heat than any electrical item, and they auto-feed.

The only reservation I have is availability of the pellets, they have been fairly reasonably priced in the past, not sure what they cost now and I'm not sure how many suppliers there are keeping each other honest...

[Scuba_Steve]

You don't have the slightest idea what you are talking about. Why have you replied with this rubbish?

Yeah, log burners need air...the stuff they draw in is from outside and is cold. So it's kinda flawed like that.

Heat pumps don't need a sealed room. That would be fucken stupid. They heat or cool the air in the room, whatever loss might occur will happen no matter what you heat with.

You're a fucken idiot
Do you even know the difference in types of heat? You ever heard of terms like "radiant" "convection" "conduction"?
You say "they heat or cool the air in the room" what happens when that air escapes? that's right the heat escapes with it! & you say I have no idea... Fucking imbecile; Maybee you should try thinking sometime might do you some good.


A mate has a pellet burner, loves it.

I like the idea of them, and they can put out a lot more heat than any electrical item, and they auto-feed.

The only reservation I have is availability of the pellets, they have been fairly reasonably priced in the past, not sure what they cost now and I'm not sure how many suppliers there are keeping each other honest...
Problem with most of them is they require electricity to run

[Drew]

Heat transfer ducting can be weird. Some places it works, others it doesn't. Ya gotta know about static pressure and how it effects the flow,outlets,any number of things. It's more complex than just a tube and a fan.

[Ocean1]

Problem with most of them is they require electricity to run

Not a lot, just for the fan and the pellet feeder.

But yes, if "good foe a power cut" is high on your list then probably not the right tool for the job.

Having said that the huge log burner we had in the last place went from a comfortable quarter throttle to full throttle when the power went out and still wasn't keeping up.

Massive area to heat though.

[Drew]

6 kw isnt a particularly large unit Its only the equivalent of two and a half 2.4 kw heaters.If 6 kw keeps your whole house nice and cosy you must have a more modern home and or good insulation and draught proofing.
6KW is what I put in an average size lounge dining. It's not big enough for a modern open plan living/kitchen area.
For those I like to put in a cassette unit. They get a great spread of air and can be central. They're a cunt to retrofit though, most times we're putting them in new builds.

There are so many options available, there aren't many applications that can't be worked through. But it's not always the most cost effective.

I'm not a fan of putting a big log burner in to heat a whole house. The room with the fire tends to be too hot before the rest of the house heats up. That's my reason for thinking a ducted air con system is boss. Whole house at whatever temerature I want, controlled by a phone from anywhere in the world.

[Drew]

Do you even know the difference in types of heat? You ever heard of terms like "radiant" "convection" "conduction"?
You say "they heat or cool the air in the room" what happens when that air escapes? that's right the heat escapes with it! & you say I have no idea... Fucking imbecile; Maybee you should try thinking sometime might do you some good.I'm aware of the different types of heat, though from the context I'm not sure you know as much as you think you do.

Anyhoo. A high wall heat pump is designed to warm a single room. So that's what it tries to do. The reason it needs to keep coming back on is thermal loss and the tempered air escaping. That's why we take window area and a home's insulation into account when quoting a job.

I'm pretty good at my job. I went to a job for a guy we contract to and refused to do the install. The KW output on the unit was possibly, but in this room (three stories tall and 80m2 floor area) a single high wall was not going to do the job at all. Customer was stoked, we discussed his options and came to the same conclusion he had when he got the salesman round. I don't make more or less money based on the number of installs I do. That affords me a moderate of integrity that a lot of installers don't seem to display.

[Maha]

6 kw isnt a particularly large unit Its only the equivalent of two and a half 2.4 kw heaters.If 6 kw keeps your whole house nice and cosy you must have a more modern home and or good insulation and draught proofing.

Our house is nine years old and only 70 sqm..the 6kw heat pump is big enough.

[Drew]

Our house is nine years old and only 70 sqm..the 6kw heat pump is big enough.

Is it a high wall? 6KW might be doing the job, but I'd have gone bigger or use two smaller ones.

[Ocean1]

I'm not a fan of putting a big log burner in to heat a whole house. The room with the fire tends to be too hot before the rest of the house heats up. That's my reason for thinking a ducted air con system is boss. Whole house at whatever temerature I want, controlled by a phone from anywhere in the world.

We had both in the last house. The burner was 32kw iirc, and I messed with the original DVS system so you could pump air from the top of the 80sqM living area to anywhere in the house.

I remember installing the last pot belly the local foundry ever made in a lockwood we had in Normandale. That first winter we'd sit there looking through black storm clouds out over the harbour wearing fuck all, with the windows and doors onto the deck all open and the stove a lovely straw yellow around the grate. The stainless flue bright red at the stove, fading to cobalt blue at the roof.

When it comes to combustion of any sort a bit of overkill never hurt anyone. :laugh:

[BMWST?]

Correct me if I am wrong.'pellet burner is sealed from the room'

your pallet burner takes air from the outside, burns it, the exhaust goes out thru the flue,

heat(and I suppose light) is transferred through the walls of the unit into the room.

the reason I ask is that I have an exiting fireplace which is a better light source than a heat one.
I could replace it with a pallet burner with ducted air from the outside - so its not using the warm air from the room

I was contemplating getting rid of the fireplace altogether - its in the middle of the room
The pellet burner is an "insert" type
the pelletburner sits in a cavity and the cavity is(mostly) sealed from the room.the cavity is vented to outside via the the double walled flue .The pellet burner heats the air of the room but it does not use the air in the room for combustion.The body of the pellet burner also gets warm so there is some radiattion but most of the heating is done by very warm air blown by a fan The air of the room is continually warmed by the pellet burner

[BMWST?]

A mate has a pellet burner, loves it.

I like the idea of them, and they can put out a lot more heat than any electrical item, and they auto-feed.

The only reservation I have is availability of the pellets, they have been fairly reasonably priced in the past, not sure what they cost now and I'm not sure how many suppliers there are keeping each other honest...

mitre 10 and placemakers have pellets,and "ablaze" have pellets.they seem to be all different suppliers.Alternatively you can buy pallets(a tonne) at a time .I buy ten 15 kg bags at a time for about 11 bucks each.each bag lasts about 3 evenings heating our poorly insulated 40 to 50 sq m lounge dining room of a typical 50s bungalow.
pros are push button start, automatic regulation,can be set to come on automatically,relatively clean and simple to keep fuelled.Cons are need electricicty,the fans always make some noise(think of a fan heater on low),they need to be cleaned of very fine ash,and they are complex compared to a woodburner.They are supposedly quite efficient but you pay to play.ours is a quite modest 6 kw unit and being an insert maybe not quite as good as a freestander
edit main con i think is they are more expensive to buy and to install you need a new or close by power point.One of the suppliers early on in our search suggested it would be quite easy to have a pellet burner run of a battery for security of operation during a power cut.

[BMWST?]

Our house is nine years old and only 70 sqm..the 6kw heat pump is big enough.

yes thatll do it!

[george formby]

mitre 10 and placemakers have pellets,and "ablaze" have pellets.they seem to be all different suppliers.Alternatively you can buy pallets(a tonne) at a time .I buy ten 15 kg bags at a time for about 11 bucks each.each bag lasts about 3 evenings heating our poorly insulated 40 to 50 sq m lounge dining room of a typical 50s bungalow.
pros are push button start, automatic regulation,can be set to come on automatically,relatively clean and simple to keep fuelled.Cons are need electricicty,the fans always make some noise(think of a fan heater on low),they need to be cleaned of very fine ash,and they are complex compared to a woodburner.They are supposedly quite efficient but you pay to play.ours is a quite modest 6 kw unit and being an insert maybe not quite as good as a freestander
edit main con i think is they are more expensive to buy and to install you need a new or close by power point.One of the suppliers early on in our search suggested it would be quite easy to have a pellet burner run of a battery for security of operation during a power cut.

Yup, I run computer fans I've scavenged to silently waft the warmth around. Run them off my old bike battery. Lasts for yonks.

[eldog]

Ok basically decided to go with diaken Cora heat pump(s) so independent settings for each room and off when not occupied.

from Drews comments before smartphone control seems to be a 'nice option' but is it worth the hassles?

the units seem to have a timer/heat settings for multiple time periods for the day/week which would suit me, when I am riding....

i got got a price to get a ventilation system installed as well to push 'filtered air' in from outside possibly north side as this is generally drier than the south. Included a heat recovery unit which can be bypassed in summer. Have I gone overboard? The ventilation price is 5600 installed
i think I will give it a miss and once the remediation stuff has finished maybe revisit this or use the money on another bike .....
smartvent, HRV, DVS et al all very similar. Even use approximately the same parts?
not convinced as yet.

next stop remove recessed downlights and replace with coverable led lights and improve the insulation which has sagged (less than 50mm)

forgot to ask, power heat pump units from local wiring supply or run it back to the main distribution board?
yes I am getting a COC for each unit. All proper like.

[MarkH]

I have a small Mitsubishi Hypercore in my bedroom, 2.5kW I think it is. Personally I think it is the best choice by far - it isn't like I'm going to put any kind of wood, coal or pellet burner in a small bedroom. The high wall heat pump in winter needs to be aimed to blow the air down or else it just warms the air near the ceiling. In Summer it is fuckin' fantastic though, just need to run it on low and that lovely cool air just falls down to where I'm sitting typing shit in the Kiwi Biker forums and that feels so good on a hot day!

For me the biggest problem was not having a/c in summer time. My alarm goes off before 2:30am each weekday, I NEED to go to bed early - in summer that is damn hard when it is way too hot to sleep. Cooling my room before I go to sleep makes it possible to get some sleep in so that I'm fit for work each day. People can rave all they like about pellet burners and log burners, but it is a shit load easier to heat up in winter than cool down in summer and I can't see how any kind of burner is going to be of any use in summer! My heat pump works really well in winter and in summer, you can't beat that!

Me in summer => :cool:

[george formby]

I'm impressed with Mitsubishi products in my limited experience. We have a portable de-humidifier which is a few years old but does an amazing job. I also noticed a hotel on the sea front in Paihia has recently replaced all the air con / heat pump units for their rooms, replaced with Mitsubishi again. The old units had been in place for at least 10 years but were still working, they were replaced due to the sea air corroding the housings, which are on the roof, and potentially being unsafe should we get a cyclone or some such.

[eldog]

OK now have installed heat pump by a pro.

Any way I should test it?

I am only asking because I noticed that in auto mode it runs for a bit then stops for a few seconds then starts again I suppose it is changing over from heat to cool mode.

The outdoor unit has a 20 amp rating while the circuit breaker is a 16.

Otherwise is almost fool proof to use.

Certainly took a while to get used to. Now I don't notice it.

[Drew]

OK now have installed heat pump by a pro.

Any way I should test it?

I am only asking because I noticed that in auto mode it runs for a bit then stops for a few seconds then starts again I suppose it is changing over from heat to cool mode.

The outdoor unit has a 20 amp rating while the circuit breaker is a 16.

Otherwise is almost fool proof to use.

Certainly took a while to get used to. Now I don't notice it.
The outdoor unit is labelled 20amp Max current, or the isolator is rated to 20amp?

Your installer should have tested it, I encourage people to select heat or cool. Auto can be a pain in the arse.

[Maha]

Yip heat or cool, choose the desired temperature and let it do it's job. The snow flake icon is beaut on the hottest of days, during summer here, it can be high 20's to low 30's degs. Got home a few weeks ago after being out for the day it was 28 inside at 5pm.. even with the windows and doors open it's to hot to cool down, dropped probably 2 degs so we set the heat pump and went to the club for a couple of beers.

[eldog]

The outdoor unit is labelled 20amp Max current, or the isolator is rated to 20amp?

Your installer should have tested it, I encourage people to select heat or cool. Auto can be a pain in the arse.

Outdoor unit 20 Amp
Isolator 20 A

Circuit breaker 16 A

will try heat/cool to see the effect vs auto which i figure is the machine bouncing around trying to use either method.

its mainly to be used for summer cooling

[Drew]

Outdoor unit 20 Amp
Isolator 20 A

Circuit breaker 16 A

will try heat/cool to see the effect vs auto which i figure is the machine bouncing around trying to use either method.

its mainly to be used for summer cooling
That's very strange. I imagine the installer has run 2.5mm cable for the feed. Though the cable is rated to 20amp it's not allowed to be on a 20 amp breaker in residential applications.

If he knows his shit, there's a very chance it will never be an issue. Or, when the unit is properly stressed it'll pop the breaker. In which case he'll have to run the feed in 4mm.

[caspernz]

OK now have installed heat pump by a pro.

Any way I should test it?

I am only asking because I noticed that in auto mode it runs for a bit then stops for a few seconds then starts again I suppose it is changing over from heat to cool mode.

The outdoor unit has a 20 amp rating while the circuit breaker is a 16.

Otherwise is almost fool proof to use.

Certainly took a while to get used to. Now I don't notice it.

Unless you want a huge power bill don't run it on AUTO. It'll just run 24/7 trying to maintain a set temp indoors when outdoors varies.

More economical approach is to use the HEAT or COOL function as it then just turns off or idles back once the set point is reached.

[eldog]

That's very strange. I imagine the installer has run 2.5mm cable for the feed. Though the cable is rated to 20amp it's not allowed to be on a 20 amp breaker in residential applications.

If he knows his shit, there's a very chance it will never be an issue. Or, when the unit is properly stressed it'll pop the breaker. In which case he'll have to run the feed in 4mm.

I will ask the question, hopefully the comissioning is tomorrow or next week. so much stuff going on.....

I suspect there is something I havent noticed about the unit. The installation looks quite good, apart from a small bit when the appentices were left alone.:crazy:

Thanks CASPERNZ will run it in either mode, (Its another question I have to ask, there are a few more..... sometimes I know more about the products than the salesperson:brick:)

waiting for the weather to change so I can RUN it proper like.

[eldog]

Asked the question about 20A outdoor unit and 16A circuit breaker, something to do with the amount of cooling available to indoor unit.

will have to wait till it gets hot I guess.

otherwise nice to have a cooler house.:headbang:

[Drew]

Asked the question about 20A outdoor unit and 16A circuit breaker, something to do with the amount of cooling available to indoor unit.

will have to wait till it gets hot I guess.

otherwise nice to have a cooler house.:headbang:I'm not sure what they mean by that. But all right.

Edit.

Unless he means the unit is so oversized that it's never gonna need to work above 75% capacity.

[eldog]

Unless he means the unit is so oversized that it's never gonna need to work above 75% capacity.

I think this was what he thought.
his answer wasn't 100% convincing.

seems to be an honest type, building up a business.

i know a hell of a lot more about heat pumps, air con, DVS HRV etc than I did 6 months ago.

esp heat pump controls, what they don't tell you.

i rather have it oversized, but would of rather had provision for it(wiring size) at the start. A bit of cable doesn't cost anywhere the cost of labour putting it in then later removing it and replacing it with a larger cable.

anyway it cools and heats, quieter than I originally thought and the outdoor units are quiet for the neighbours.

onto the next project LED lights.:facepalm:

[russd7]

ok, bit of a dredge here, but our toshiba heat pump has decided it don't wanna go no more and now we are lookin at replacing, we are limited by the height of the indoor unit (needs to be less than 720mm high floor mount). sifting through the specs it seems that a fujitsu will be best fit, what do people know about them, experiences etc.

the floor unit is wider than the other manufacturers and the guy that came out to do the quote suggested that the wider units can move more air which makes sense.

the old unit is a 5.6kw but struggled when it was really cold and seemed to need to defrost a hell of a lot,

the fujitsu is a 6kw (been quoted) or we could go to an 8kw, is it worth going for the bigger unit.

the biggest daikin that we could put in is 5.6kw.

suggestions please, we need to make a decision fairly smartly as the panel heater just isn't working out

[Honest Andy]

Check the specs before you choose. Particularly check for reductions in output when the outside temperature gets really cold :cold:

[russd7]

Check the specs before you choose. Particularly check for reductions in output when the outside temperature gets really cold :cold:

thats why we have come to the fujitsu, based on the spec sheets of the ones we have looked at,

compared specs on , Fujitsu, Daikin, Mitsubishi, Panasonic, Toshiba.

the Fujitsu on paper is still a better unit but what have people experienced in real terms and what do our resident heat pump installers think. always good to get the opinion of someone who doesn't have finger in this particular pie.

[neels]

Fujitsu is good gear, despite the twat they have advertising them, it's one of the two makes a mate who is independent of franchise influence installs.

Installer should be able to recommend what size you need for the area you're heating, we've got something around 6kW for the living area of our house which works good with the fan on low so it doesn't make too much noise, and our house leaks air like a sieve.

[Drew]

The Fujitsu is a good unit. Don't remember doing any warranty work on them.

8kw doesn't come in the small size I don't think.

[russd7]

The Fujitsu is a good unit. Don't remember doing any warranty work on them.

8kw doesn't come in the small size I don't think.

cheers drew, was hoping you would reply, the height of the 8kw in the specs is the same as the 6kw but cheers. looks like the fujitsu will be the answer, now another 2 weeks before we can be warm.

[Honest Andy]

now another 2 weeks before we can be warm.

Awww, you should come up norf mate, lovely up here!

[pete376403]

We have a couple of Panasonics which have been pretty good since installation (3 and 4 years) I put the outside units up on the roof as I didn't want them in the outside deck area. The kitchen one does go into defrost a bit on cold mornings and we're in Upper Hutt so not going to get extreme cold of Riverton. Cleaning the filters has a huge bearing on how well they work.

8/10 mostly happy with them

[eldog]

Check the specs before you choose. Particularly check for reductions in output when the outside temperature gets really cold :cold:

although not really related to russd7 question, here is a few extra things I be looking at before I brought again.

From memory, I think Mitsi put a heating element in the outside unit to keep it working in low temp areas, not a bad solution if it gets really cold as long as there is power.

myself I would put in the next size up from recommended, but is usually doesn’t matter.
check out the sound specs if you want to have it on while you sleep.

nice options are to have: sensor so you can get unit to either blow onto you, which can get annoying or everywhere you aren’t. Especially at night.

if it’s programmable check out the number of total steps available. The Daiken unit I have only allow 4 points per day, 2 on, 2 off. It would be the minimum. Nice in the middle of winter to wake up with the unit running then it auto turns off (in case you forget) then on again when you get home and off again later. Etc. copying one days setting to other days easy.
it can be frustrating to program but you will get there with practise.

if you get more than one controller, label them and set them up how you want.
place them out of the way of children, otherwise there can be a shit fight in the middle of the night. Getting accused of bad programming and or faulty machine by people who can’t believe little kids can use controllers, can lead to ‘problems’. The solution is to disable system in that part of the house, calls that it’s cold fall on deaf ears as the machine is ‘faulty’.

i placed the outdoor unit under the eaves on the south side up on wall mounts, no problem.

the machine does quite work as I expected it to, but now used to it. Set the temp to how you feel, adjust as necessary. Check out if system has 0.5 increments in temp setting very noticeable. 1 degree can be too much.

place sticker over ON light if in sleeping area, otherwise you will be awake......

i would recommend separate power power circuits back to circuit breakers on distribution board.
get a signed COC for the installation.

important to work out with installer how and where they are going to route the cables/hoses. Do this with the actual person who is doing the install. Make sure it is that person.

[russd7]

Awww, you should come up norf mate, lovely up here!

maaaate, i left Te Puke back in 82 because the area was getting to crowded and slowly but surely worked my way further south and if there was good riding to be had on Stewart Island i would probably be over there, i go norf for holidays as needed, now have Two stepkids living round Tauranga but still no interest in shifting back north. funily enough when the whole country is getting crap weather it normally means we are getting good weather but keep that to yaself, don't want anymore norf islanders down here (apparently im enough for them down here :laugh:) just at present it tis a tad chilly when the only heating we have is one small panel heater

[russd7]

although not really related to russd7 question, here is a few extra things I be looking at before I brought again.

From memory, I think Mitsi put a heating element in the outside unit to keep it working in low temp areas, not a bad solution if it gets really cold as long as there is power.

myself I would put in the next size up from recommended, but is usually doesn’t matter.
check out the sound specs if you want to have it on while you sleep.

nice options are to have: sensor so you can get unit to either blow onto you, which can get annoying or everywhere you aren’t. Especially at night.

if it’s programmable check out the number of total steps available. The Daiken unit I have only allow 4 points per day, 2 on, 2 off. It would be the minimum. Nice in the middle of winter to wake up with the unit running then it auto turns off (in case you forget) then on again when you get home and off again later. Etc. copying one days setting to other days easy.
it can be frustrating to program but you will get there with practise.

if you get more than one controller, label them and set them up how you want.
place them out of the way of children, otherwise there can be a shit fight in the middle of the night. Getting accused of bad programming and or faulty machine by people who can’t believe little kids can use controllers, can lead to ‘problems’. The solution is to disable system in that part of the house, calls that it’s cold fall on deaf ears as the machine is ‘faulty’.

i placed the outdoor unit under the eaves on the south side up on wall mounts, no problem.

the machine does quite work as I expected it to, but now used to it. Set the temp to how you feel, adjust as necessary. Check out if system has 0.5 increments in temp setting very noticeable. 1 degree can be too much.

place sticker over ON light if in sleeping area, otherwise you will be awake......

i would recommend separate power power circuits back to circuit breakers on distribution board.
get a signed COC for the installation.

important to work out with installer how and where they are going to route the cables/hoses. Do this with the actual person who is doing the install. Make sure it is that person.

pretty much the conclusion we came to as it is a replacement for the unit that is in the house when we bought, was on the plan to replace but wasn't really wantin to do right now, all the units bar 1 work in temps down to -15 according to specs and one only did down to -10. to be fair the daikin was the worst overall spec of the lot and their website is shit, ya can't print the specs off so you can sit down with all in front and compare

[granstar]

don't want anymore norf islanders down here (apparently im enough for them down here :laugh:) just at present it tis a tad chilly when the only heating we have is one small panel heater

True; but ya can visit us anytime, i'll close the fridge door quickly and keep the burner stoked so you don't chill yer NI arse.
https://www.continentseven.com/c7/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Marokko_Fireweb.jpg P.S bring all those heatpump brochures, they burn well.

[russd7]

True; but ya can visit us anytime, i'll close the fridge door quickly and keep the burner stoked so you don't chill yer NI arse.
P.S bring all those heatpump brochures, they burn well.

its alright, i will bring the Red and the firewood :niceone:

[Honest Andy]

its alright, i will bring the Red and the firewood :niceone:

Isn't Red more of a north island beer...?
(you can pick up lots of firewood in Ak at the moment too :whistle:)

[Moi]

its alright, i will bring the Red and the firewood :niceone:


Isn't Red more of a north island beer...?
(you can pick up lots of firewood in Ak at the moment too :whistle:)


:psst: the "red" might be dali plonk from out west rather than chateau de lyon rouge...

:drinkup:

[Honest Andy]

:psst: the "red" might be dali plonk from out west rather than chateau de lyon rouge...

:drinkup:

Ahh. I see.
Some of these dali red(heads) pack a punch too :msn-wink:

[Moi]

Ahh. I see.
Some of these dali red(heads) pack a punch too :msn-wink:

You speak from experience?

With that sort of dali plonk you'd not need a heat pump...

[Honest Andy]

You speak from experience?

With that sort of dali plonk you'd not need a heat pump...

ahh well that depends...

on what you mean by heat pump

:innocent:

[russd7]

:psst: the "red" might be dali plonk from out west rather than chateau de lyon rouge...

:drinkup:

yea, naaa. te red is of the lion type and don't judge me i did spend a lot of my earnings as a young fella in the Oeo hotel and some time at the Oeo marae.
I have been known to partake in a speights or two as well when the need arises

[granstar]

Could be

http://www.freakingnews.com/Irish-Red-Beer-Pictures-114004.asp

[granstar]

I have been known to partake in a speights or two as well when the need arises Why one drinks Red, to wash that down.