Farmer walks free after killing gang member [Archive]

Tank

17th February 2009, 10:19

What if things were reversed, and the gang member had thought the other guy was reaching for a weapon and had killed him? Would that be OK too?

Im guessing that the farmer wouldn't have entered the gang members property, beaten him to a pulp previously, and was using stand-over tactics, on the gang member - thus not giving him any reason to expect that the farmer was carrying a weapon.

edit - added: "During the trial it was revealed that two weeks before the fatal shooting, Mr Allen had been brutally beaten with a fence post by two men who arrived on horseback demanding money. Mr Allen, who suffered extensive head and facial injuries, spent several days in Whakatane Hospital."

Then another of the gang turn up at your place demanding money and threatens to kill the guy.

Vifferman - Do you seriously not think that the farmer had a reasonable reason to believe that the guy wasn't serious. (And this isn't taking into account that the guys house mysteriously burnt down the day before he moved in)

3umph

17th February 2009, 10:22

What if things were reversed, and the gang member had thought the other guy was reaching for a weapon and had killed him? Would that be OK too?

that would be for a jury to decide if that was to happen...

the jury in this instance had all the facts and came to a decision in the case....

shafty

17th February 2009, 10:25

The Farmer was on his own property.

Bloody good job.

MSTRS

17th February 2009, 10:29

I just love a feel-good news story....Next!!

Dooly

17th February 2009, 10:35

What a shame he had to go thru a trial and custody when a medal and cash reward would of been much easier.

outlawtorn

17th February 2009, 10:38

Best news in the paper today:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10557174

Good news indeed. Maybe things might start to turn around in this country in terms of sentencing....now we just need harsher sentences for those who commit crimes!

Mikkel

17th February 2009, 10:50

Is killing in self defence a valid plea under NZ law?

I doubt that - but self-defense using reasonable force is I believe a valid plea just about anywhere in the civilised world.

When weapons are involved one way or the other, reasonable - but non-lethal - force becomes quite difficult to achieve.

Beemer

17th February 2009, 10:57

The Farmer was on his own property.

Bloody good job.

I agree - but the sad thing is, a very similar thing happened to a mate of mine in Taneatua years ago and his life turned to hell afterwards. He had his own lawnmowing business and lived out in the country. He heard someone stealing his truck one night so he went outside and fired a warning shot in the general direction. Pitch dark, no street lights, interior light in truck proven at trial not to have worked for years, so no way of seeing what he was shooting at, he just hoped to scare them off. He hit one of the thieving bastards and he bled to death. Gangs were involved and once the police were involved this mate was harassed and his pregnant wife threatened. She had to move out with their other child and he was scared for his life. He had to pay for his defence (got acquitted) but he paid far more than that. His marriage broke up due to the stress and he had to sell his home and business as it was too dangerous for him to live there any more. His story was in North and South years ago and I felt so sorry for him as he and his wife were a lovely couple with a great lifestyle until some thieving scum tried to take it off them.

Unfortunately this guy will be a marked man now, which is a real shame. Funny how both incidents occurred in the same region - and people ask why I don't miss Whakatane!

imdying

17th February 2009, 10:58

Shooting gang members should be encouraged, whether they're standing over you for money, or just walking down the street. They're worth less than nothing, you shouldn't even have to bother calling the police, just metro refuse.

slimjim

17th February 2009, 11:15

What a shame he had to go thru a trial and custody when a medal and cash reward would of been much easier.

what a medal and cash for not paying a contractor... hummm man was wanting payment..yet no firearm was founded in the person's vehicle

ManDownUnder

17th February 2009, 11:19

Someone find the poor bastard a job - he's been through enough...

Headbanger

17th February 2009, 11:22

Mc TOOL

17th February 2009, 11:32

A mans home is his castle and he is allowed to " use as much force as deemed nessessary at the time " to defend life and property . Nobody ( above ) has mentioned the crown prosecutor, A Mr Rob Ronayne and his assertations that the defendant INTENDED to murder , and that his actions were vengful and calculated and were motivated by anger and hatred of Mr Colliers race and perceived gang connections . I dunno how sea you en tea's like him can sleep at night , I geuss the problem is that he can . I would have thought that the prossecution would have been better off using facts rather than one mans opinion , a man who wasnt there , a man who wasnt recently hospitalised by other ( perceived ) gang members .(Oh yeah ! did any one see the doco on sky last night " I cant stop masturbating, )
I was once told by 2 lawyers and a detective ( father ,brother and an uncle ) If you ever find your self in a position where you need to shoot someone , shoot to kill , the last thing you need is the reciever of the bullet giving evidence against you.
I hope Mr Allen is suitably compensated

imdying

17th February 2009, 11:57

I'd imagine that short of totally wiping out a whole gang and all their prospects, hangers-on, associated chapters, affiliates, etc., and everyone who had knowledge of them, there's no way you'd ever be able to stop them. As long as there's even one or two left, they'll carry on.That is exactly what I'm suggesting. I disagree with the last part though, they wouldn't have the balls.

/edit: So we're clear; including, but not limited to; Gang members, their families, their families families, any supports, affiliates, customers, anyone within a couple of degrees of separation. A mass cleansing of NZ society.

Indiana_Jones

17th February 2009, 12:05

"The 303 gauge bullet penetrated Mr Collier's upper right arm, went through the chest and out the side, fatally injuring his heart and lungs."

.303 - Killing cunts since 1889 :sunny:

-Indy

Dooly

17th February 2009, 12:31

what a medal and cash for not paying a contractor... hummm man was wanting payment..yet no firearm was founded in the person's vehicle

No for killing a shithead.

The story said 'ALLEGEDLY' owed Mr Collier's gang of workers money for tree pruning.

I think I know who'd I believe.

MSTRS

17th February 2009, 13:40

That is exactly what I'm suggesting. I disagree with the last part though, they wouldn't have the balls.

/edit: So we're clear; including, but not limited to; Gang members, their families, their families families, any supports, affiliates, customers, anyone within a couple of degrees of separation. A mass cleansing of NZ society.

You are on the right track. Your 'solution' would also free up a lot of state houses, clearing the horrendous waiting list. Might even free up hospitals as well.
Oh...and no taxpayer funded tangis either. Pay for your own...

Forest

17th February 2009, 17:46

Sad to read that he has had to leave the valley.

The guy is a hero. Fuck the gangs.

Dave Lobster

17th February 2009, 17:52

98tls

17th February 2009, 18:06

Nice to see the justice system get it right,almost be worth buying a remote block of land and waiting..and waiting..and waiting.

Max Preload

21st February 2009, 14:01

Nice to see the justice system get it right,almost be worth buying a remote block of land and inviting..and waiting..and waiting.

There you go. All fixed up for you! :whistle:

gammaguy

21st February 2009, 14:25

as far as i know,it is quite legal to defend yourself or your property against attack in this country.

of course the degree of self defence is always left open to debate,and this is the problem.

I live on a rural property and my nearest neighbor is 2km away.

i have a firearm available,and would have absolutely no hesitation in using it to defend myself,my property or anyone who happened to be here at the time.

i would try for a disabling shot first,but if they were armed and refused to yield,i would finish them off.

i have a lot of friends around here,and they all feel the same way.

i hope it never comes to that,but im ready......and im a bloody good shot.;)

TLDV8

21st February 2009, 14:48

"The 303 gauge bullet penetrated Mr Collier's upper right arm, went through the chest and out the side, fatally injuring his heart and lungs."

.303 - Killing cunts since 1889 :sunny:

-Indy

You forgot to mention the side on shot was fired some 3.5 metres away (very close) and from a landing with no witness's.
I could care less about the gang member but am willing to bet in the heat of the moment things were a little different to what was told in court.

Bit like the other thread i just read where a middle aged man chased someone for close to a quarter mile and they fall on the knife.
You would have plenty of time to think about what you are doing in that case,you take your chances,the rest is up to the jury.
In these cases you win some,you lose some,no different to the guy who fired a "warning shot" horizontally in the dark not knowing what he might hit.

Either way all of their lives are !@#$ed up one way or another.

Indiana_Jones

21st February 2009, 14:59

In these cases you win some,you lose some,no different to the guy who fired a "warning shot" horizontally in the dark not knowing what he might hit.

Either way all of their lives are !@#$ed up one way or another.

Fire one into him, then a warning shot.

-Indy

Fatjim

21st February 2009, 15:59

as far as i know,it is quite legal to defend yourself or your property against attack in this country.

of course the degree of self defence is always left open to debate,and this is the problem

i have a firearm available,and would have absolutely no hesitation in using it to defend myself,my property or anyone who happened to be here at the time.

I'm guessing you don't have a firearms license as you appear to not know that you cannot legally use a firearm under any circumstances to defend yourself in NZ.
And if you don't have a firearms license, and you're not the owner of the gun ("firearm available" rather than "I own a gun"), then the owner of the gun is going to be in a whole pile of shit if you point that thing at anybody.

Fatjim

21st February 2009, 16:00

Fire one into him, then a warning shot.

-Indy

Get the missus to fire one into him then mysteriously arrive home 5 minutes later. No court in this fair land will imprison a woman for shooting a home invader with half a good story.

Ixion

21st February 2009, 17:08

I'm guessing you don't have a firearms license as you appear to not know that you cannot legally use a firearm under any circumstances to defend yourself in NZ.
And if you don't have a firearms license, and you're not the owner of the gun ("firearm available" rather than "I own a gun"), then the owner of the gun is going to be in a whole pile of shit if you point that thing at anybody.

I do not think that can be correct. For one thing there is the precedent of the gun shop guy, who did just that. And an earlier case in Panmure when a local resident shot a prowler who attacked him. Probably others, those I know of.

Grizzo

21st February 2009, 17:14

Best news in the paper today:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10557174
Yeah bloody good shit!

gammaguy

21st February 2009, 18:30

I'm guessing you don't have a firearms license as you appear to not know that you cannot legally use a firearm under any circumstances to defend yourself in NZ.
And if you don't have a firearms license, and you're not the owner of the gun ("firearm available" rather than "I own a gun"), then the owner of the gun is going to be in a whole pile of shit if you point that thing at anybody.

like you said,you are guessing.

and i would rather be in a pile of shit than six feet under one

munster

21st February 2009, 18:50

i would rather be in a pile of shit than six feet under one

Amen to that!

When I renewed my firearms license I got asked the 'usual' question, 'would you ever use firearms in self defence?'

I answered (and honest to God, this was my answer), 'Yes, if the circumstances required it, but in all reality, it would take too long to retrieve my firearms from their legally required secure storage, that is what I keep the cricket bat & hockey stick under the bed for'

I got it renewed, no worrries.

Swoop

21st February 2009, 18:51

And an earlier case in Panmure when a local resident shot a prowler who attacked him.
The video casette case??

gammaguy

21st February 2009, 19:00

one thing i have learned

in life we never know what we are capable of until we have to be.i almost drowned once,when i was younger,but survived by swimming the length of the boat underwater to come up beside the sail,which was lying over the water and preventing me reaching air.

if anyone told me to do it at any other time,i would have laughed at them,i am not an olympic swimmer by any means.

it taught me something:dont underestimate what you are capable of,you might surprise yourself.

if i was faced with a violent death at the hands of someone else,i know exactly how far i would go to save myself or the people dear to me.

hopefully it will never happen,but i can assure you the firearms laws and legislation would be the last thing on my mind.

its all about surviving.

munster

21st February 2009, 19:13

its all about surviving.

Totally agree 100%. I have had this discussion with plenty of friends and although we can all talk the talk, the test is when it happens for real, and none of us have so far had the oppurtunity. So it's still all talk!

3umph

21st February 2009, 19:15

Totally agree 100%. I have had this discussion with plenty of friends and although we can all talk the talk, the test is when it happens for real, and none of us have so far had the oppurtunity. So it's still all talk!

too true... easy to talk the talk but when it come to walk the walk it can be a totally different matter

Ixion

21st February 2009, 20:50

The video casette case??

Yes, that one.

Indiana_Jones

21st February 2009, 21:21

They won't give a firearms licence if that's the only reason you wish to own one.

But as it's been said above, I wouldn't hesitate to shoot some low life dick trying to hurt me or my mrs.

-Indy

Fatjim

21st February 2009, 22:17

I do not think that can be correct. For one thing there is the precedent of the gun shop guy, who did just that. And an earlier case in Panmure when a local resident shot a prowler who attacked him. Probably others, those I know of.

As Munster said, when you get or renew a firearms license they ask you this question, and the only answer that stops you not getting your license is no, I would not use a firearm in self defence. Thats the law.

However, when you are in front of 12 of your peers and they ask themselves what a reasonable person would do in that situation and the only answer they can come up with is "use the gun" then you are likely to get off.

Brett

21st February 2009, 22:50

Awesome news, I just hope that this becomes more the natural outcome in these sorts of cases. It is just really sad that the guy had to spend a 'lengthly period in custody to begin with.

fire eyes

22nd February 2009, 09:16

Can't fault the guy for self defence in that situation. Gang associate or not. What a scary thing to have to go through.

Don't be fooled by the term 'gang assosiate' though.

I have friends who used to babysit kids who grew up and chose to become gang members .. my friends are considered 'gang associates' for simply wiping thier arses. Funny ol world.

malfunconz

22nd February 2009, 10:10

gangs , get rid of them and who 's gonna sell the drugs that keep the rest of the losers operating there little criminal activities

Dave Lobster

22nd February 2009, 15:51

gangs , get rid of them and who 's gonna sell the drugs that keep the rest of the losers operating there little criminal activities

The asians that bring it all in??

Patrick

23rd February 2009, 11:44

... Nobody ( above ) has mentioned the crown prosecutor, A Mr Rob Ronayne and his assertations that the defendant INTENDED to murder ,.....

Depends what was in the case presented for him to prosecute. No, he wasn't there. He also didn't "make up" anything. Did the farmer talk to the Police at the time and explain self defence, or did the prosecution have nothing from him, but an unarmed man shot to death....?

Just something to consider.

Good shot, well done that man... he deserves a DB.... and a medal.

As Munster said, when you get or renew a firearms license they ask you this question, and the only answer that stops you not getting your license is no, I would not use a firearm in self defence. Thats the law.

That is more like the "correct" answer... There are circumstances where it is acceptable to use a gun in self defence.

However, when you are in front of 12 of your peers and they ask themselves what a reasonable person would do in that situation and the only answer they can come up with is "use the gun" then you are likely to get off.

This is spot on. Better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6.