Give Way rule

[pixc]

This is a scan from 2006 Road Code for MB. I dont like the last picture. Isn't a supermarket entrance a driveway?

found online version here too. 8th picture down.
http://www.landtransport.govt.nz/roadcode/about-driving/giving-way-at-uncontrolled-intersections.html

[Beemer]

I'm not sure, but I would think common sense would prevail in this instance - if one is turning in and one turning out, then it would be simpler for the one turning out to go first.

Most of the supermarkets here have give way signs at the exits so this situation is reversed. Annoys the hell out of me - I wave people to go if I am waiting to turn in, but find it's usually only older men who do the same to me - the young ones would still turn in front of me even if I had the right of way.

[bungbung]

Isn't a supermarket entrance a driveway?

The rules are still the same, be it driveway or road.

[vifferman]

Our supermarket has two entrances - one on a majorish road, two lanes out, one in, and with a Stop sign on the exit - and one onto our street (one lane each way). People turning right into the one on our street never give way to people turning right going out. Not surprising really - they almost never give way at the t-intersection at the end of our road either. It's got no signs, and if I turn right out of it, and someone's turning in from my left, they invariably don't give way. Happened just yesterday, and I gave the culprit a blast on my (triple) horns. He looked surprised, "What? What did I do?". Pillock.
If I'd had a truck, a good ramming might've taught him some road rules and common courtesy. (Yes, ramming people to get their attention IS very courteous. Thanks for pointing that out).

[pzkpfw]

http://www.safeas.govt.nz/smf/index.php?action=printpage;topic=566.0


In light of the recent emphasis on road junction behaviour, our local Road Safety Coordinator has been using the uncontrolled intersection/roundabout page out of the Road Code in the newspaper recently.

He tells me he is amazed at the number of drivers who have phoned him up saying the info is not correct. The callers have particular issue with the supermarket exits where you are supposed to give way to traffic turning right out of the exit when you are turning right into the supermarket. Bearing in mind that this is copied straight out of the road code and has been in force for the last 20 odd years (?) and you see what a long way there is to go in NZ driver education!

[slofox]

People turning right into the one on our street never give way to people turning right going out. Not surprising really - they almost never give way at the t-intersection at the end of our road either. .

You are right vifferman - VERY few people give way to those exiting a T intersection whether it is signposted or not. It is almost at the stage when the law is better ignored. Maybe it could change to suit general practice....of course that would make a mockery of the right hand rule or what's left of it....

[pixc]

http://www.safeas.govt.nz/smf/index.php?action=printpage;topic=566.0

Thanks pzkpfw.
I honestly had it wrong all these years. I still dont like it and I cant recall ever having any issues with this type of junction. So this applies to any driveway? Private or public?

[Starky307]

This is a scan from 2006 Road Code for MB. I dont like the last picture. Isn't a supermarket entrance a driveway?

found online version here too. 8th picture down.
http://www.landtransport.govt.nz/roadcode/about-driving/giving-way-at-uncontrolled-intersections.html

The whole right hand give way rule is a major stuff up and one that is hardly ever followed by vehicle users.

It is a dangerous rule that the government are aware off but are to frightened to fix.

By the way any area that is accessible by the public is classed as a road and governed by the road rules. It must have means of controlled access to stop the road code applying.
This is why uncontrolled car parks and beaches etc are governed by the rode code. This makes your supermarket car park a public road and therefore the entering and exiting is controlled by the rode code, be it right or wrong.

[merv]

The rules are still the same, be it driveway or road.

Agreed, and I get annoyed with all the dickheads that try and drive around me when they should be giving way to their right.

[Devil]

My street is an uncontrolled intersection. Everyone treats it as a controlled intersection however, and it works. BUT in doing that it does make one complacent when coming in and out daily and I'm concerned that i'll get owned at some point by someone who IS legally in the right and decides to pull out anyway while i'm coming in.

[pixc]

I'm not sure, but I would think common sense would prevail in this instance - if one is turning in and one turning out, then it would be simpler for the one turning out to go first.


my common sense tells me person on the road goes in first. I have assummed for years that because vehicle turning in , she/he should go first to get out of flow of traffic. Could be holding up traffic behind him/her. Person coming out of driveway isnt in the flow of traffic.

So it appears i have failed common sense chip.

[GOPSTER]

my common sense tells me person on the road goes in first. I have assummed for years that because vehicle turning in , she/he should go first to get out of flow of traffic. Could be holding up traffic behind him/her. Person coming out of driveway isnt in the flow of traffic.


I agree I thought roads had right of way, obviously i have been doing it wrong. However most supermarkets have a giveway or stop sign meaning the traffic turning in has right of way.

[sunhuntin]

dont worry pixc... i was the same. still am in certain cases. seems to though, that people exiting seem to think the vehicle on the road has right of way as well though. so maybe changing it would be a good idea.

[Karl@Alpha]

.So it appears i have failed common sense chip.

Well in that case you will fit well with all others...

[hellnback]

It's not bloody rocket science! It's like when you big city folk lose a set of traffic lights. No-one has any fucking idea who to give way to! Arrgghhh!

(Admittedly in rush-hour it's a bit hard to give-way to your right when there's someone on everyone's right....)

[YAMASAKI]

dont worry pixc... i was the same. still am in certain cases. seems to though, that people exiting seem to think the vehicle on the road has right of way as well though. so maybe changing it would be a good idea.

so you're wanting to make what is a VERY simple rule - GIVE WAY TO YOUR RIGHT WHEN TURNING - confusing by adding exceptions??? just because some people haven't bothered to read the road code.

[pixc]

so you're wanting to make what is a VERY simple rule - GIVE WAY TO YOUR RIGHT WHEN TURNING - confusing by adding exceptions??? just because some people haven't bothered to read the road code.

well why put give way/stop signs on the exit out to the contrary? Road vs road junction I am confident/correct and have no worries. Road vs driveways is were I have it wrong

[YAMASAKI]

Road vs driveway, the rule is the same... where traffic flow problems arise road planners put in compulsory stops and give ways, same rules apply for adding them to driveways/supermarkets/shopping mall exits and entrys.

[slofox]

my common sense tells me person on the road goes in first. I have assummed for years that because vehicle turning in , she/he should go first to get out of flow of traffic. Could be holding up traffic behind him/her. Person coming out of driveway isnt in the flow of traffic.



Sensible - I think exactly as you do. For the same reasons.

[pixc]

Road vs driveway, the rule is the same... where traffic flow problems arise road planners put in compulsory stops and give ways, same rules apply for adding them to driveways/supermarkets/shopping mall exits and entrys.

So..Joe Blogs is driving/riding along, accidentally leaving indicator on, and good ole nana pulls out of supermarket and they collide.

Na..dont like it. Theres no common sense to this rule. Driveway shud giveway to road. But I will override my faulty common sense chip and ammend the errors of my way. Im surprised I have never had an issue on the road before concerning this.

[Max Preload]

Isn't a supermarket entrance a driveway?

No. A public entrance is a road.


The whole right hand give way rule is a major stuff up and one that is hardly ever followed by vehicle users.

It is a dangerous rule that the government are aware off but are to frightened to fix.

Not at all. The problem is drivers not obeying the rule because successive generations are taught the same bad habits by their parents.

[Starky307]

No. A public entrance is a road.



Not at all. The problem is drivers not obeying the rule because successive generations are taught the same bad habits by their parents.

I agree but if the masses abide by common sense which is the "main road" user has right of way over someone exiting an uncotrolled road or carpark then what do you do, pull out from the car park and get sideswipped?

The uncontrolled intersection right hand turn rule is dangerous in my mind.

[pixc]

No. A public entrance is a road.
OK. It must be a grey area for others too. Ive never had a near miss etc. So..either people have same thoughts as me, people assume others have same thought as me...or I just don't do enough shopping.

[davebullet]

Agreed, and I get annoyed with all the dickheads that try and drive around me when they should be giving way to their right.

I agree with Merv.

The give way to your right rule still applies at a supermarket entrance. That is, I am leaving the supermarket turning right, and you are to my left trying to turn right into the supermarket. You give way to me.

Most drivers observed this rule when I began driving 20+ years ago... now it is the other way around.

More should be done to test this rule in my opinion, since more drivers than not break the rule.

[davebullet]

Give way to your right is an excellent rule... you can apply it in any situation if you've forgotten / not clear and it works well. Think about it - you have 1 second to decide... you can execute this rule very quickly.

I have far more near misses now than I ever had... not because roads are busier, but driving is worse and people do not know their road code.

[pixc]

Give way to your right is an excellent rule... you can apply it in any situation if you've forgotten / not clear and it works well. Think about it - you have 1 second to decide... you can execute this rule very quickly.

I have far more near misses now than I ever had... not because roads are busier, but driving is worse and people do not know their road code.

I agree with you. I think its good. Its not the 'giveway' rule in general. Its driveway vs road that I buggered up.

[martybabe]

Shed some light on this one then guys please. There is a T junction by me, I'm going to turn right on to the main highway. traffic coming from the left wishing to turn into my road have a filter lane with a give way line at the end.

So you're saying every vehicle turning right off the main drag into my road should give way to me,that's about 1 vehicle every three seconds in rush hour, quite frankly, I've never seen it done and if I tried to pull out I would be Killed. Is this a case of people not reading/understanding the code or do they all think it's a stupid rule and ignore it?.

It's hardly surprising that so many people are oblivious of this rule if nobody abides by it in practice.

[bungbung]

Shed some light on this one then guys please. There is a T junction by me

The intersection is controlled (Give way), then by law the traffic turning right into the trunk of the T have to give way to all traffic.

[bungbung]

Then there is common sense...

[martybabe]

The intersection is controlled (Give way), then by law the traffic turning right into the trunk of the T have to give way to all traffic.


Then there is common sense...

:apint: Thanks bb, I'll wait for a gap eh, I could still be there at Christmas .

[pixc]

copied from http://www.landtransport.govt.nz/roadcode/about-driving/turning.html


Turning from a driveway

If you are driving out of a driveway:

* slow down to a complete stop at the end of the driveway
* check the road and footpath for hazards, pedestrians and other vehicles
* give way to:
o pedestrians on the footpath
o vehicles along the road.


Is it a female thing?? Im confussed!

[YAMASAKI]

must be :)

give way to vehicles driving ALONG the road.... ie. not turning into the driveway

[Max Preload]

Shed some light on this one then guys please. There is a T junction by me, I'm going to turn right on to the main highway. traffic coming from the left wishing to turn into my road have a filter lane with a give way line at the end.

So you're saying every vehicle turning right off the main drag into my road should give way to me

Correct. And in turn traffic approaching from your right, turning left onto your road must give way to those that have stopped to give way to you. In the case of there being 3 vehicles all turning you and the vehicle to your right would proceed while the car in the middle of the main road turning right would wait.

[YAMASAKI]

And in turn traffic approaching from your right, turning left onto your road must give way to those that have stopped to give way to you.

not as i understand it.. they are on a give way. the vehicle turning left isn't.

[pixc]

Ok, just to set things straight. Who gives way..A or B. Does lined road vs unlined rd mean anything?

[Ixion]

A gives way to B. "Give way to your right". Lines or unlined makes no difference. Only difference is if there is a giveway or stop sign (or a traffic light)

[YAMASAKI]

A gives way to B

[The Pastor]

im well aware of this rule but i (being the red car) always give way to the car that i have ROW over (the blue one), why? becuase its easy and safe to do, and creates less confusion. If i were to force the cage to do what the law says (and they never ever will give way at this type of intersection) i would not be here today.

<img src="http://www.landtransport.govt.nz/roadcode/gfx/turn-right-giveway-r-turn2.jpg">

[mdooher]

A is a motorcycle...it always gives way...

[pixc]

whale oil beef hooked! ive had it wrong all these years with no issues AT ALL. In my world.. b gives way

[mdooher]

whale oil beef hooked! ive had it wrong all these years with no issues AT ALL. In my world.. b gives way

In my world I force the issue ie when I'm B I just go...but only in my cage..company car

[pixc]

must be :)

give way to vehicles driving ALONG the road.... ie. not turning into the driveway
Along by to me means forward. Not specific to any direction. Forward left, forward right, forward straight ahead.

I cant believe Ive had this wrong for so long without consequence.

[Tony W]

In my 40 odd years of driving I have found that only about 1 percent of New Zealanders know the Right Hand Rule at T intersections ( includes the supermarket scenario) and how to indicate correctly at roundabouts.

I am in the 1 percent.

99% are just plain ignorant. I know the rules without any special education.

What's wrong with us as a nation ?........( little rhyme there...):D

[YAMASAKI]

Along by to me means forward. Not specific to any direction. Forward left, forward right, forward straight ahead.

I cant believe Ive had this wrong for so long without consequence.

You drive ALONG the road
you drive AROUND a corner
you don't normally drive along a corner :bleh:

At the end of the day, if you're on a bike you should give way at all intersections (or be prepared to at any rate) even if you do have the right of way. Even if the other driver knows the road code, the chances are they haven't seen you anyway...

[pixc]

You drive ALONG the road
you drive AROUND a corner
you don't normally drive along a corner :bleh:

No..I TURN the corner.
I go AROUND a pothole, or roadkill :confused:

[notme]

Maybe we should start a thread for "dumbarse and or illegal things road users routinely do" .....

For example - people just don't know how to use frickin' roundabouts.....

And I have had many people relate the pearl of wisdom that "you don't have to indicate in carparks".

[pixc]

I know how I have come to my incorrect conclusions.
I have always thought main rd has right-of-way over side roads. So all roads and driveways are equal unless sign posted otherwise right?

[Ixion]

Not since 1948. So I might have an excuse for thinking that, but you don't. You've been playing around in that tardis again, haven't you

[MarkH]

Thanks pzkpfw.
I honestly had it wrong all these years. I still dont like it and I cant recall ever having any issues with this type of junction. So this applies to any driveway? Private or public?

Private driveways often mean the car coming out of the driveway ALWAYS has right of way - well if they are only 1 lane anyway.


And I have had many people relate the pearl of wisdom that "you don't have to indicate in carparks".

Why indicate - that would only let the bastards know what you are about to do. We don't believe is such things here in Auckland! Obviously even if you normally would indicate, when driving around a carpark you should avoid courtesy and not indicate, because courtesy is bad mmmkay!

[pixc]

Not since 1948. So I might have an excuse for thinking that, but you don't. You've been playing around in that tardis again, haven't you

Not the tardis, Ive been using that DeLorean with the flux capacitor thingie

[Max Preload]

not as i understand it.. they are on a give way. the vehicle turning left isn't.

I missed the bit about the line (white for Give Way, yellow for Stop). I shall check the regulations, but I believe without a sign, it's meaningless.

[JacksColdSweat]

This is a scan from 2006 Road Code for MB. I dont like the last picture. Isn't a supermarket entrance a driveway?

found online version here too. 8th picture down.
http://www.landtransport.govt.nz/roadcode/about-driving/giving-way-at-uncontrolled-intersections.html

:gob:

"Bless me Father for I have sinned...."

I'm honestly astounded - and yet now that I see it of course it's correct - "give way to the right" - how many thousands of times have I got this wrong in 20 years of driving...

I feel like I need to go do some penance now

:spanking:

And to think I got so mad at the d*ckheads who went on about that roundabout signalling rules "changing" when I've been obeying them to the letter for the last twenty years...

and slowing down for stopped school buses...

[Starky307]

When I sat my 6F the testing officer made me go through about 4 uncontrolled intersections during the test. I tried to apply the right hand rule but never got a chance as the other vehicle (vehicle A in the picture) would swing around into my road.

I asked him about the right hand rule and he said there is no point pulling out in front of someone so that you are in the "right" when it comes to the road code.

Better to just let them go around in front of you he said.

[Sharry]

Thanks pzkpfw.
I honestly had it wrong all these years. I still dont like it and I cant recall ever having any issues with this type of junction. So this applies to any driveway? Private or public?


I had that wrong also. I was under the usumption that anyone entering a main road from a side road or driveway had to give way to the traffic on the main road.

Sooooo there is more to it than just giving way to everything that is bigger than me:Oops:

[mowgli]

At the risk of hyjacking this thread there's something else I've wondered about along similar lines. When a side road joins a road that has yellow lines down the center, there's usually a break in the yellow lines through the intersection. This kinda makes sense since the yellow lines mean don't cross and if you want to turn right you clearly need to cross them.

Now consider you're pulling out of a driveway just down the road. There is no break in the yellow lines. Can you legally turn right or are you supposed to turn left and do a U-turn further down the road after the yellow lines end?

[Usarka]

I take great delight in pretending to ram dumbarses and flicking the bird and some abuse when they don't obey the road rules in such situations.

They're usually the type of people who hassle asian drivers. Or they're asian.

PS - HTF did all you jokers get a license????? :killingme

[JacksColdSweat]

PS - HTF did all you jokers get a license????? :killingme

Actually now that you mention that I got my car license in West Auckland and when I cast my mind back I only had to turn right once in the whole test...

Every other turn was a left hand turn... and there were about 7 of them... that's the route they make you drive...

How weird is that?

[Max Preload]

I missed the bit about the line (white for Give Way, yellow for Stop). I shall check the regulations, but I believe without a sign, it's meaningless.

I stand by this statement. I can find no reference in the relevant regulations to limit lines being used without appropriate signage having any significance. That is to say, limit lines supplement signage, but alone they signify nothing.

[Badjelly]

I stand by this statement. I can find no reference in the relevant regulations to limit lines being used without appropriate signage having any significance. That is to say, limit lines supplement signage, but alone they signify nothing.

I agree. Furthermore, the use of limit lines is very inconsistent. I have seen it suggested on KB that stop signs are always accompanied by a) 2 lines or b) yellow lines. Neither is consistently true. All you can say is that most Give Way and Stop signs are accompanied by some sort of line across the road.

At the entrance to my workplace's driveway (which is a public entrance and therefore an intersection) the management have seen fit to draw a line across the driveway, but no sign. So right-turning traffic going into the driveway still has to give way to right-turning traffic coming out. But you'd be a bloody idiot to rely on that. (I must talk to them about that. The sensible thing to do would be to add a Stop sign.)

[Badjelly]

I honestly had it wrong all these years. I still dont like it and I cant recall ever having any issues with this type of junction....

I venture to suggest that some of the other drivers around you may have had issues from time to time. :rolleyes: However you are certainly not alone in having it wrong.

[YAMASAKI]

I stand by this statement. I can find no reference in the relevant regulations to limit lines being used without appropriate signage having any significance. That is to say, limit lines supplement signage, but alone they signify nothing.

I agree with you there, I read that it actually was a signposted(or road written) give way, not just limit lines.

[Ixion]

My understanding is that the line shows where you should stop, whether that stop be as a result of signs or of the right hand rule. It is intended to overcome the person who fails to give way, then stops half way across the intersecting road "But I *did* stop". Or the one who stops several car lengths down the road from the intersection so no-one is sure if he is intending to emerge or not.

The lines do not in themselves override the give way priorities.

[vgcspares]

I suppose it's too frickin obvious to say the law needs changing to something akin to every other country's ?

when they do I'm going to take a themos and deck chair to the nearest large intersection and watch the fun ... be a bit like Nigeria where they changed from driving on the left to the right in stages :

trucks one day and everything else the next

[Skyryder]

If the public have 'right' of access with a vehicle then that access,entrance, driveway etc it is considered a road.

I do not think that this applies to private dwellings and your access to your property. For example you can not expect the give way rule to apply as you exit your driveway.


Skyryder

[Skyryder]

My understanding is that the line shows where you should stop, whether that stop be as a result of signs or of the right hand rule. It is intended to overcome the person who fails to give way, then stops half way across the intersecting road "But I *did* stop". Or the one who stops several car lengths down the road from the intersection so no-one is sure if he is intending to emerge or not.

The lines do not in themselves override the give way priorities.


On both a Give Way and a Comp. Stop intersection a judge ruled many years back the the line was indicitive only. Providing you could see clearly both ways from behind the line and you had stopped this was deemed as complying with the stop or give way sign.

I knew a guy who had stopped one car length behind the vehicle and could see clearly both ways. The cop, and this was before the merger, booked him for failing to stop. The judge dismissed the case. He always carried the newspaper clipping with him and he showed it to me.

Not too sure if that would work today but it did once.

Skyryder

[Starky307]

If the public have 'right' of access with a vehicle then that access,entrance, driveway etc it is considered a road.

I do not think that this applies to private dwellings and your access to your property. For example you can not expect the give way rule to apply as you exit your driveway.


Skyryder

From what I understand and have been told it applies to any area that is not controlled by gates or fencing. I was recently told this while sitting my Forklift endorsement as we had to do the practical test in a car park that had the gate closed so that we were no longer part of the road system and the road rules would not apply, hence an unlicensed person could sit the test in that area.

[davebullet]

The funny thing is... how much money does LTSA put into TV ads to educate people about correct give way rules?

Nothing requires me to keep up to date and prove I have a knowledge of the roadcode (apart from an infringement).

Personally, I'd prefer to see theory resitting every 5 years (as long as the fee was reasonable). I'm sure this would translate into better traffic flow, better feedback to improve the laws, less accidents, lower insurance premiums etc.. etc...

LTSA is happy to show a man spinning a wheel of fortune to guess whether the car smashes and people die... what about something useful to educate the road code?

[Badjelly]

If the public have 'right' of access with a vehicle then that access,entrance, driveway etc it is considered a road.

According to the Road Code the priority rules apply at intersections


What is an intersection?

An intersection is where:

* two or more streets or roads join or cross
* a public entrance or exit joins a street or road.

Intersections include entrances and exits to and from supermarkets, petrol stations and other public parking areas such as airports and hospitals.

So the public entrance or exit doesn't have to be a road for the rules to apply, it just has to intersect with a road.

You might think the Road Code, of all documents, would tell you what a road is, but if it does, I couldn't find it.

[Badjelly]

You might think the Road Code, of all documents, would tell you what a road is, but if it does, I couldn't find it.

I wasn't looking very hard. It's in the Keeping Left (http://www.landtransport.govt.nz/roadcode/about-driving/keeping-left.html) section:



What is a road?

The legal definition of a road is very broad. It includes not only streets and highways, but also any place the public has access to – including bridges, beaches, riverbeds, car parks, reserve lands, wharves and road shoulders.

Because of this, you should apply road rules at all times when you're driving, even when you aren't on a public road.

[yachtie10]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Preload View Post
I stand by this statement. I can find no reference in the relevant regulations to limit lines being used without appropriate signage having any significance. That is to say, limit lines supplement signage, but alone they signify nothing.

I disagree

My understanding is that the signs are irrelevant it is the lines on the Road that count. this makes sense as the signs can be knocked down or vandalised but that does not change there effectiveness.
The lines I refer to are the double white (give way) or double yellow (stop) lines as you approach and intersection.

This thread has highlighted a major issue that a lot of people dont understand the road rules. I blame lack of education. This however does not stop us from reading up or checking up a rule we are not sure of.

I also think giving way when you have the right of way is contributing to the problem. I believe in driving defensivly, but the rules dont work if everybody ignores them.
Have a nice day:yes:

[Max Preload]

I disagree.

My understanding is that the signs are irrelevant it is the lines on the road that count. This makes sense as the signs can be knocked down or vandalised but that does not change there effectiveness.
The lines I refer to are the double white (give way) or double yellow (stop) lines as you approach and intersection.

Having been involved in road marking on a technical level, I strongly disagree with your 'understanding' :lol:.

Although I did have to look it up on the relevant regulations to confirm it, I am now certain that the limit lines are meaningless on their own as in order to define a intersection control a road controlling authority MUST erect and maintain signs of the correct specification as noted in the schedule. There is no provison in the Land Transport Rule - Traffic Control Devices 2004 - Rule 54002 (http://www.ltsa.govt.nz/rules/traffic-control-devices-2004.html) for the control of intersections using solely road markings - signage is compulsory.

[Badjelly]

My understanding is that the signs are irrelevant it is the lines on the Road that count...

This thread has highlighted a major issue that a lot of people don't understand the road rules...

Er yes. :laugh:

[pixc]

Thank-you everyone for the input to this thread. I'm really very disappointed in myself for making this mistake. As I have mentioned earlier, I have not ever been involved in an incident of any sort because of my misinterpretation of the road rules. No one has given me the finger, had to take evasive action etc. Lucky me..and them etc.

I will now endeavor to win lotto and hire a chauffeur to drive me about in my DeLorean. One that knows the rules

Damn. Thats rattled me a tad.

This seems to be common and yet I passed through the licensing system deluded and still got fully licensed. Its obviously not just me that has got it wrong. I best just get learnin' and stop yabberin'

[Max Preload]

The funny thing is... how much money does LTSA put into TV ads to educate people about correct give way rules?

Ummmmm, none? They're operating in 'ambulance at the bottom of the cliff' mode. Rather than preventing crashes in the first place by educating road users of the rules, they focus on speed to limit damage caused by road users who don't know the rules and don't much care to..


I have not ever been involved in an incident of any sort because of my misinterpretation of the road rules. No one has given me the finger, had to take evasive action etc. Lucky me..and them etc.

That's because almost nobody else knows them either! :lol:

[Monty69]

Wow excellent topic, just about everyday driving/riding around i see people who obviously dont understand or dont know that if they are turning right into, say a supermarket carpark, they must giveway to any vehicle turning right out of the carpark (unless it has a giveway/stop sign at the exit). Same at any uncontrolled intersection

[Skyryder]

From what I understand and have been told it applies to any area that is not controlled by gates or fencing. I was recently told this while sitting my Forklift endorsement as we had to do the practical test in a car park that had the gate closed so that we were no longer part of the road system and the road rules would not apply, hence an unlicensed person could sit the test in that area.

I don't see anything in the Act that covers the locked gate but there may hve been a court ruling on this.

Because of the wide scope of the definition, the courts have developed a number of principles that they apply when considering whether a place is a road. These include that:
• 'public' means the public in general, and not just a section of the public
• it is not enough that the place is physically open to the public - they must be shown to be actually using it.
This assessment is made by the courts on a case-by-case basis and is dependant on the facts of each case. Therefore, it is not possible to give a simple 'yes' or 'no' in answer to the question, 'Is this place a road?'.


Skyyrder

[rwh]

The issue of different 'classes' of road being equal scares me a bit. Most of the discussion here has been about T intersections, where both cars are turning - so both are going relatively slowly, and there's time to avoid someone who gets it wrong.

But the right-hand rule also applies to uncontrolled intersections where both vehicles are going straight through. So barrelling along a state highway that has trees on the sides at 100km/h is somewhat risky - what happens if someone comes through from the right, on a little gravel rural backroad that happens to cross the highway?

I guess many of these are actually controlled, but there are probably some that aren't? Especially if it's two opposed driveways ...

Richard

[Burtha]

Well, this is a learning experience. I guess I'd never thought about it before because most main driveways are giveways as mentioned earlier... has got me thinking now. :confused:

[silver55]

A good rule/law should be simple to understand and simple in it's operation. This one isn't, which is clearly demonstrated by the large number of us who have got this wrong, and admitted to it, in the past. That would include me.

When chatting with visitors I have yet to meet a single one who thinks this particular rule (and the "give way when turning left to traffic turning right for that matter) is logical, safer and better than the rule they have in their own country. And, OK, I sure haven't met visitors from every overseas country. Similarly, when driving/riding abroad I find that their give way rules are a heap more sensible than ours..again I haven't been everywhere!

Are we the only country in the world with this particular rule? If it's so good why isn't it virtually universal?

Also, this business of having the ROW when turning right out of a supermarket etc. quite often doesn't work in the real world of traffic. For instance, I'm turning right out of the supermarket, there's a chap turning right into the supermarket...so he gives way to me...BUT, there's traffic coming towards him on the "main" road, and, as happens locally, he's moved closer to the centre of the road which enables traffic, moving in the same direction as himself, to pass him on his left. This means I can't make my right turn, otherwise I'm going to be collected by this passing traffic. So, I sit there unable to pull out, and he sits there giving way, even though he might well be able to make the right turn without any problem with oncoming vehicles. It requires more judgement, from me, to cross one lane of traffic and at the same time ensure that there's a sufficient gap to move into in the far lane. For the chap waiting to turn into the market all he has to do is cross the one lane.

OK, rant over, sorry.

[Max Preload]

A good rule/law should be simple to understand and simple in it's operation. This one isn't, which is clearly demonstrated by the large number of us who have got this wrong, and admitted to it, in the past. That would include me.

That's quite ridiculous. It's very easy to understand the rule if you're taught the rule itself it instead of being shown only what happens at specific intersections in pretty pictures for you to memorise and regurgitate once and can then forget for 55 years. I was taught the and I've never had any problem with applying the rule at any intersection. It's quite intuitive if you make the effort to LEARN it.

[nobikeyet]

I have wondered about this for years so I sent an email off to NZ TRANSPORT ASSOCIATION. here is their reply. Hope this helps.

Where a driveway is used by a commercial development or similar and the public are invited to enter (e.g. a driveway into a supermarket car park) it is suggested the driveway becomes a road for the purposes of the Land Transport Act and rules made under it. The road code comment in relation to giving way to vehicles travelling along the road is meant to cover those vehicles (which include cycles) which are not entering or leaving the driveway. The normal giving way rules that apply at intersections should be used at driveways.


The following advice has previously been given to members of the public seeking advice on this issue.


"The road rules do not give drivers right of way but rather indicate who should give way. Just because someone should give way to you does not mean you have an absolute right to proceed.


With many driveways the width tends to impose different rules to those covered by the rules. For example, if a vehicle is occupying the full width of driveway the vehicle trying to enter clearly cannot do so until the other vehicle has moved. The question of who gives way to who is thus decided by other means than the normal giving way rules.


The other issue arises in defining a driveway. Many large car park entrances look like a full intersection and, unless they have some form of sign or signal control, it is logical to treat them as the intersection they look like. Where a driveway is less clearly defined but is still one used for public access there is a legal view that the driveway is effectively a road, the point where it meets the road an intersection and the normal rules of the road then apply.


However, just because the other driver should give way does not mean you should assume they will and it is often wiser to allow the other party to proceed rather than risk a collision. The Courts in reaching a decision of driver fault on any case would take into account the circumstances and whether each party behaved as would a normal, prudent driver."

[PeteNZ]

The kiwi give way rule requires you as a driver not only to see your own signs and road markings BUT ALSO the other drivers' signs and markings!! To know whether to give way at the intersection you have to know if the other driver has a sign and what it says FFS!! From the wrong side of the sign..And that's at night too.. And in the rain. The current rule is totally moronic for that reason alone. The safety aspects mentioned above like indicators left on, forgetting to indicate are the cherries on top. These all simply wouldn't be a factor if we adopted the rule followed by the rest of the sane world. Some one tooted at me today for pulling out of an uncontrolled supermarket entrance when they indicated their turn. .. I honestly felt like smacking them. I really believe the self-righteousness attitude in the kiwi driver/rider has been bred from this give way rule.

[Max Preload]

The kiwi give way rule requires you as a driver not only to see your own signs and road markings BUT ALSO the other drivers' signs and markings!! To know whether to give way at the intersection you have to know if the other driver has a sign and what it says FFS!! From the wrong side of the sign..And that's at night too.. And in the rain. The current rule is totally moronic for that reason alone. The safety aspects mentioned above like indicators left on, forgetting to indicate are the cherries on top. These all simply wouldn't be a factor if we adopted the rule followed by the rest of the sane world. Some one tooted at me today for pulling out of an uncontrolled supermarket entrance when they indicated their turn. .. I honestly felt like smacking them. I really believe the self-righteousness attitude in the kiwi driver/rider has been bred from this give way rule.

Clearly you're another who shouldn't have a licence. STOP signs are hexagonal, GIVE WAY signs are triangular. STOP limit lines are yellow, GIVE WAY limit lines are white. It is really that hard to actually THINK when you're riding or driving?

[rwh]

Clearly you're another who shouldn't have a licence. STOP signs are hexagonal, GIVE WAY signs are triangular. STOP limit lines are yellow, GIVE WAY limit lines are white. It is really that hard to actually THINK when you're riding or driving?

That doesn't change the fact that none of the signs are designed to be particularly visible from the 'wrong' side - either by their material/colour etc, or by their placing. They're there for the person coming up that road, and yet assumed to be known somehow by the person on the other. And the lines are not always present (worn off, new seal, dirt road, driveways etc).

Richard

[Max Preload]

That doesn't change the fact that none of the signs are designed to be particularly visible from the 'wrong' side - either by their material/colour etc, or by their placing. They're there for the person coming up that road, and yet assumed to be known somehow by the person on the other. And the lines are not always present (worn off, new seal, dirt road, driveways etc).

Oh dear god. Is this what NZ has become? A bunch of unthinking droobs who want every thought handed to them? I guess with the recent flurry of roundabouts beng replaced by traffic lights and uncontrolled intersections being sign posted with GIVE WAY's, then the answer is most likely YES. It's a shame because no system is going to be perfect, but the one we have is pretty damned good.

I've yet to encounter the scenario where there is no visible sign or limit line. Next time you see an intersection like this, please snap a shot and post it.

[rwh]

I've yet to encounter the scenario where there is no visible sign or limit line. Next time you see an intersection like this, please snap a shot and post it.

Well, you're asking for evidence of things I haven't claimed - the claim is that the signs aren't always easy to see, not that they're completely invisible or hidden.

Here are a few snaps - yes, you can probably work out what the story is in most cases, but my claim is that it isn't always immediately obvious from all angles.

Richard

[BiK3RChiK]

my common sense tells me person on the road goes in first. I have assummed for years that because vehicle turning in , she/he should go first to get out of flow of traffic. Could be holding up traffic behind him/her. Person coming out of driveway isnt in the flow of traffic.

So it appears i have failed common sense chip.

Yeah, and then when you turn right out of the entrance/side street, you would be turning into a lane with traffic in it coming around the left hand side of the vehicle waiting to turn in! What a stupid law!:buggerd:

[BiK3RChiK]

I disagree

My understanding is that the signs are irrelevant it is the lines on the Road that count. this makes sense as the signs can be knocked down or vandalised but that does not change there effectiveness.
The lines I refer to are the double white (give way) or double yellow (stop) lines as you approach and intersection.



Well, I disagree...

Double yellow lines and double white lines are being replaced with SINGLE Yellow and SINGLE White lines to conform to International standards. The important thing which tells you it is a Give Way is there is a triangle on the road along with either a double or single white line and a Give Way Sign. Sometimes, the words 'GIVE WAY' may be painted on the road also. A Stop intersection will have either a double or single yellow line and usually the words STOP written on the road and on a Sign.

All in all, a very confusing mix!

[BiK3RChiK]

But the right-hand rule also applies to uncontrolled intersections where both vehicles are going straight through. So barrelling along a state highway that has trees on the sides at 100km/h is somewhat risky - what happens if someone comes through from the right, on a little gravel rural backroad that happens to cross the highway?

I guess many of these are actually controlled, but there are probably some that aren't? Especially if it's two opposed driveways ...

Richard

I would be absolutely amazed if on a main highway, where a side-road intersects it, that the side road wasn't a controlled intersection! And, if not, then surely, anyone exiting the side road would exercise common sense. However, if both vehicles on the Main road were going STRAIGHT THROUGH as you stated, then they would have right of way in any case. It's only turning traffic that has to give way.

[davebullet]

There should be an IQ test for driving a 1 tonne killing machine.

I honestly believe someone can be too dumb to drive.

[Ragingrob]

The give way rule has never caused me issues. Get over it! If you think too much you'll hesitate which causes accidents, don't overthink the rule and confuse yourself I say.

[rwh]

I would be absolutely amazed if on a main highway, where a side-road intersects it, that the side road wasn't a controlled intersection! And, if not, then surely, anyone exiting the side road would exercise common sense. However, if both vehicles on the Main road were going STRAIGHT THROUGH as you stated, then they would have right of way in any case. It's only turning traffic that has to give way.

The example I gave had both going straight through, but one on the highway and one on the crossing road.
Have a look at the 6th pic in my post (#86) above - it's suburban streets, not open highways, but it's an uncontrolled 4-way intersection like I was describing. A car coming from the street on the right, and continuing across to the left, has right of way over traffic on the more major road the picture was taken from. AFAIK the dashed lines across the sidestreets have no significance. But would you expect that car from the right to just pull across in front of you?

Richard

[Ragingrob]

The example I gave had both going straight through, but one on the highway and one on the crossing road.
Have a look at the 6th pic in my post (#86) above - it's suburban streets, not open highways, but it's an uncontrolled 4-way intersection like I was describing. A car coming from the street on the right, and continuing across to the left, has right of way over traffic on the more major road the picture was taken from. AFAIK the dashed lines across the sidestreets have no significance. But would you expect that car from the right to just pull across in front of you?

Richard

How do they have right of way? The dashed lines signify the end of the road and the fact the you have to give way to all traffic continuing straight on the road you're about to pull into.

[rwh]

How do they have right of way? The dashed lines signify the end of the road and the fact the you have to give way to all traffic continuing straight on the road you're about to pull into.

How do they not? Both vehicles are going straight through, and there are no give way or stop signs. They're crossing from the right.

Dashed lines signifying the end of a road is not something I've come across anywhere ...

Perhaps it's not clear from the photo that the crossing road is in fact straight - it's not at right angles to the main road, which is why it might look like 2 roads that are offset a bit.
It does go straight through, and has the same name on both sides. If you want to see it on google maps, it's the intersection of Park Road and Revans St in Miramar, heading southwest from Camperdown Rd.

Richard

[Ragingrob]

How do they not? Both vehicles are going straight through, and there are no give way or stop signs. They're crossing from the right.

Dashed lines signifying the end of a road is not something I've come across anywhere ...

Perhaps it's not clear from the photo that the crossing road is in fact straight - it's not at right angles to the main road, which is why it might look like 2 roads that are offset a bit.
It does go straight through, and has the same name on both sides. If you want to see it on google maps, it's the intersection of Park Road and Revans St in Miramar, heading southwest from Camperdown Rd.

Richard

Well they must signify something right? Otherwise why are they there? They are saying that "This is the end of the road so give way to the dominant straight through traffic but you do not need to use the giveway rule otherwise".

But otherwise, if I'm in fact wrong regards the dashed lines, look at the last picture here - http://www.landtransport.govt.nz/roadcode/about-driving/the-give-way-rules.html, where it is a completely uncontrolled intersection and you must just give way to your right as you say.

Although I'm pretty sure those dashed lines account for something. Perhaps it is a completely uncontrolled intersection but they advise the road-user to slow down and be prepared to give-way.