Dodgy '00 CBR600F4 alternator

[shag]

I've been having issues with my bike killing batteries for the last couple of years now. There's been a small (just a few mA of leakage) that has flattened the batteries when left alone for too many months without disconnecting it or taking the old girl for a run. It was never a big issue until now and I really couldn't be botherd stripping the bike down to find the problem. So I just left it as it was...

Now the other day I took it for a little run around town. And thats when I noticed that something had definately gone wrong. It was having serious issues at low revs when I was at intersections. Coughing a bit and making me look a tad stoopid. Bad bike! :confused:

Anyway, when I got home I found that the battery was prety flat and that it wasn't charging. Though it was charging fine when I last checked it about 6 months ago. low-mid revs the voltage was only rising from 12v - 12.5v . So I've just spent the last 1/2 hour poking around and discoverd the alternator isn't playing nice. There's a definate inconsistency in the outputs of the windings. Looks like thats been the problem all along and the most likely the cause of the leakage.

So, here I am wondering If Honda should foot the bill for the (possibly) dead stator. Sure the bike is now 5 years old but I still haven't even hit the 10,000km mark yet. She's just been run in and no more. What do you think my chances are of getting them to come to the party with a new stator if after removal I find that to definately be at fault? - I think they should at least. :niceone:

shag.

[moko]

Worth a try mate,wouldn`t bother with the dealer that sold it but go straight to the importer.
Might be an idea to get your reg/rectifier checked out as well,Honda do 2 types for the CBR,those that self-destruct and those that are about to.5 years isnt bad for a battery to last,your low kms will be doing that bike more harm than good.Stuff dosnt "stay new" with lack of use it deteriorates and it`s possible that your battery is shagged either through lack of use or being charged too quickly/wrong kind of charger e.t.c. a few times.Km`s are pretty much irrelavent,a high amount on a bike that`s been properly maintained will not be a big deal these days when a lot will go for 200ks no problem.People that dont use their bikes a lot for whatever reason tend not to be enthusiasts and may well have skimped on servicing,even basic maintenance,so I`d expect more trouble rather than less unless it had been recently serviced.Like I said,worth trying Honda but then it`s worth trying anything,if you cant prove it`s been maintained as per the owner`s manual then I doubt they`ll listen and even then it`s down to their goodwill.BMW,in Europe at least,have a very good rep for this sort of thing,i.e. unless the bike is neglected they`ll weigh it up on how long something should have lasted rather than warranty left,with the rest it`s a shot in the dark.

[shag]

Thanks for the reply moko. It's actualy the third battery in there. They have been shagged from me not removing the things when the bikes been unused for a month or so though I'd make sure it was run at least once every 4 - 6 weeks... Well the winters here are just a little cold with grit/ice coverd roads ok ;-P. There was definately a problem with a leakage current (5-6mA from memory). Thats been the battery killer with me not disconnecting them from the bike. Otherwise I've always charged the battery following the battery specs with charge current/time. Edit: I forgot to mention in the first post that just a couple of days before before the issues I had charged the battery and been on a good 40km odd open road ride.

And yeah, the bike is due for an oil change that i will be doing shorty. It'll only be 3 - 4 changes since day one Tho. Should probably be doing that yearly no matter what the km huh. - naughty.

Anyway, I think it's beer 'oclock and the sun is calling. Will investigate the bike more later or tomorrow even.

:beer:

[dhanvic08]

i think it is, because a good friend of mine have the same problem with his bike recently. he measured the voltage on idle and when he revs up to 4000rpm the reading is still great...but when he took the bike for a spin, there the battery went flat...

maybe the regulator can no longer stand the heat or something else is wrong. he checked all the wires and found out that terminals are corroded already, but he ended up with changing the rectifier/regulator just to make sure everything is in order...

be careful dude, you might fry the CDI...it cost much from here!!!...

Suggestion: bring it to a competent electrician/mechanic who works real good in electricals. It will save you from too much pain in the pocket and headache. at all times "Better be safe than sorry..."

Good luck dude!

[shag]

I had measured the output from the alternator itself. From what I can tell one or more of the coils is poked. One leg is 1v lower than the other. Couldn't find a ground short though and the winding resistance is a little too low to compare reliably.

I'm just sorta guessing there but that seems to make sence. 3 wires, none to ground and between them we have 10.5v, 6.5v and 7.5v - i'd expect those two to be the same giving aprox 15v. So even if the regulator was stuffed, those two simmilar windings should have equal outputs. Bit rusty on the workings of those things but I'm prety sure that there is a feedback winding that would be that 10.5v one... unless it's a 3 pole jobby and there is a seperate feedback coil I've missed. In which case the alternator is definately poked.

So I think out loud a lot. Time to do some googles and see what info i can find.

[shag]

Okie dokie. Looks like I might have been right :shake: Heh

Found a wiring diagram, got the pesky fairings off and found the rectifier. It's testing out just fine. Unless it's breaking down under load that is. But solid state devices tend to either work or not at all (but anything is possible). So it's back to the alternator for now..

It would also appear that these ones don't have a field coil at all. The Rotor is pre-magnetised. So, seeing as the rectifier is fine and going by the voltages I got off the alternator leads I'm in for a new alternator stator. Bad Honda! 5 yrs and 10,000km is a prety short run. The stator is however in the side of the crank case so the windings are exposed to the engine oil. - kinda asking for trouble.

Anyway, here's some pix of the action if any of you are interested...

alternator hides in here (http://www.shag.co.nz/cbr_alternator1.jpg)

The dodgy stator (http://www.shag.co.nz/cbr_alternator2.jpg)

The rectifier hiding behind the rear fairing (http://www.shag.co.nz/cbr_alternator3.jpg)

[k14]

If the stator coils are burnt out you can rewind them yourself. Not too hard, just takes a little paitence.

[shag]

And there I was all smug thinking I knew the problem. I sat here after posting that thinking what about the leakage current. I then thought maybe I should apply a little more voltage to the diodes in the rectifier just to remove any doubt. So here is the setup... trusty old ameter, the bike battery and a 12v lamp in series just incase I spasticaly put the wires over the diodes the wrong way and toasted one :-P

The picture is here (http://www.shag.co.nz/cbr_alternator4.jpg)

And on one of the diodes that tested fine with the multimeter, I had that leakage current. So the stator has been put back in. Will order the new rectifier tomorrow and organise the new oil 'n filter. I've learned my leason.
Don't be afraid to use old school testing methods :niceone:

..But then the stator could still have an internal short caused by the partialy stuffed rectifier. I'll know that after the replacement arrives.

[shag]

Right. After 2 phone calls with Honda I have got no where.

First thing I did on monday was ask for a price on a new rectifier from the local honda agent. The answer back was a little over $300. F@#k that. I mean there is seriously only $40 odd of parts in one of those damn things. And thats paying retail for the components :angry2: So I called Honda explaining my problem and why I thought it wasn't an unreasonable request to get a replacement from them. I didn't think I was too agressive or too complacent. The parts lady I talked too was friendly and agread that 10,000km was a little on the low side even considering the age. She said that she would have to put it through the main parts guy though who called me today. He was helpfull in telling me the specs of the alternator so that I could find a new replacement rectifier and test the stator properly. What he wasn't very helpfull with was comming to the party with a replacement for the obviously shagged, non-serviceable part (with a lifetime shelf life) that lasted for a measly 10,000km of actual use. The part has absulutely no corrosion on the connectors as he sugested might have been the cause. I could count the amount of times this bike has been in the rain on one hand damn it.

Now the parts guy did say that he would offer a price reduction on the part that I would still have to buy through the local agent. He did however point out that I would still find it cheaper to buy an after market part saying that he hated to loose a sale but that was probably my best option. What he has lost is any chance of me ever buying a new honda again either road or trail .For me or my daughter. Honda can stick their products where the sun don't shine as far as i'm concerned. I was planing on upgrading to a new 'blade in the next year or two. But now I'll be looking at their competition for saticfaction instead.

If they won't reasonably stand behind their products then why should anyone else.

Shitty support Honda.

Ok, it's beer time.

Edit : forgot to mention that testing the alternator as he sugested with no load did give promising results with all 3 phases giving equal voltages although a tad lower than his estimate of output voltage. Time will tell...

[shag]

And it just just gets worse.

Had a guy we know just come visit. He decided to go into our garage to get some of his tools he'd left behind. And he mannaged to derail the garage door...

That landed on my bike. There goes the tank.

No wonder I drink like I do.

[shag]

Opps, double post.

[Blakamin]

I feel for ya.....the door thing has to suck!

[shag]

Okie dokie. Here is the after market rectifier. Look, it has fancy things like cooling fins. Take note honda. Thats how you make heat dissipating devices last longer... At 1/2 the cost of your Honda badged crap.

Bit of a size difference huh :-P (http://www.shag.co.nz/cbr_alternator5.jpg)

[pete376403]

http://www.thegsresources.com/garage/gs_statorfacts.htm

Best pages I have seen on motorcycle charging systems. Relevant to most makes