View Full Version : Follow up with the Ambulance Comms Centre
Nasty
20th February 2009, 15:49
you know my story .... Grub died in the back-arse of nowhere in NZ ... no cell coverage no nothing ... calling the ambulance was hard .... but at least two locals and two riders did .... problem was the ambulance turned up 100 odd kms away ... the helicopter also did but followed the road till they found him.
I asked for an enquiry into the calls and what happened. On Wednesday (24/2) I have a meeting to be told what went wrong - they have admitted problems - and we will discuss what is the learnings that will be applied and taught to their call takers and what other actions need to take place.
I have a friend/old boss who heads up Ambulance NZ who is coming with me ... and that is good .. I am nervous ... and scared of what I will learn ... but this needs addressing as if I go riding and have an accident I want them to turn up. I will also request that this report goes to the coroner.
Just thought I would share ... I will report back on what I learn and also what we can do to help in future. This is not an enquiry into bringing Grub back - he is gone ... it is if ANY of us has an accident we want them to come and show up where we are.
munster
20th February 2009, 15:55
All the best Nasty. Can't be easy. I heard about Grub via Metagoo (Danny) who lives round the corner from you, an old friend from way back.
Number One
20th February 2009, 16:14
Will be thinking of you in that meeting chick. Good luck :hug:
Mom
20th February 2009, 16:20
I commend you for following up on this issue Nasty.
Mistakes do happen, but when they happen in the ambulance service dispatch area they really need to be investigated thoroughly, and the reasons for the mistakes highlighted and remedied. Must be a hard thing for you personally to do, so all power to you!
yungatart
20th February 2009, 16:22
Good on you, girl!
What you are doing may very well save lives!
Trudes
20th February 2009, 17:04
Good on you Kari, a lot of people would still be crying in their museli, you're making a difference, awesome!
Okey Dokey
20th February 2009, 21:06
Hi, Nasty, I hope this won't be too awful for you. Thanks for trying to make things safer for all of us in the future.
chanceyy
21st February 2009, 11:23
good on ya babe .. Thinking of you :hug:
fLaThEaD FreD
21st February 2009, 11:29
Bronwyn and I admire you for following through.......it needs to be done.
FJRider
21st February 2009, 11:44
Go girl.. the outcome may help any one of us in the future, anywhere in the country. not just in that neck of the woods.
Swoop
21st February 2009, 19:29
Good on you Nasty!
That "golden hour" needs to be used wisely after any form of accident. Riders tend to like the roads that are out of the way and cellphone coverage isn't brilliant in NZ.
Keep us posted.
Sharry
21st February 2009, 21:09
Good on you Nasty for still being able to think past what has happened and onto how can we make the future work for us. I know this cannot be easy:hug:
Naki Rat
23rd February 2009, 08:44
Good luck with the meeting Nasty :niceone::clap:
I'll watch the results with interest particularly as we here in Taranaki seem to have more than our share of cellphone blackspots due to our 'interesting' local terrain.
sunhuntin
23rd February 2009, 08:53
thoughts are with you, as always. :hug:
i will be looking out for the result/report. grubs death will not be vain, if even one life is saved as a result of this investigation.
Nasty
25th February 2009, 22:11
Meeting was good ... I am so glad that I took David my support - he was fantastic ... the report has not been finalised but will be in a couple of weeks .. there are a couple more things to investigate - i am impaitent but will hold out for it. Once competed they will send to me to review and we will meet again to go through it and any questions raised.
At this stage: Problems have been identified - and solutions proposed or in place now - once the report is finalised we can share the details.
One thing that KBers can think of is HOW we can help.
The thinking is that we know the roads by more names than the services do .. and there is a little common knowledge or common names known ... and they are looking at how we can help identify these pieces of road e.g. forgotten highway is a common name not a proper one ... things like that ... they will come and we can see how this can be done.
Thanks for putting up with this ... it should not be too much longer before I can really share what happened - with good solid knowledge.
Cheers - Nasty
Number One
26th February 2009, 06:43
:hug: thank you K :hug:
Grizzo
26th February 2009, 06:46
All the best Nasty.
sunhuntin
26th February 2009, 07:49
looking forward [somewhat] to reading the results. you are right about the names being different.
could we maybe have a blank map, and each of us put on it the names we use for each road? could have one with sealed roads and one with unsealed. i think theres one online, but i cant recall the name. kinda like google earth?
those maps could then be provided to emergency services. just a thought at the moment.
MsKABC
26th February 2009, 07:55
One thing that KBers can think of is HOW we can help.
Much respect to you Kari for doing this - I know it cannot be easy.
I guess one small way we can protect ourselves is to know the correct names for roads before we go on a ride, so then if the unthinkable should happen, we may be able to report accidents accurately. I always like to know where my hubby is going riding too, so if he should disappear down an embankment then at least I know roughly where to start looking for him.
thehollowmen
26th February 2009, 11:33
I came across an accident up north road in dunedin, the 111 center kept asking where we were in relation to a 4 way junction. If you've actually seen it the 'four way junction is made up for two T junctions are about 1km apart.
Some of the telecom mobiles have assisted GPS for emergancies. Even their cheepie ones have it, but don't have map software.
I've got GPS and maps on mine as well.
All you do is read off the numbers.
If you can, upgrade. It is another technology that might save a life.
The thinking is that we know the roads by more names than the services do .. and there is a little common knowledge or common names known ... and they are looking at how we can help identify these pieces of road e.g. forgotten highway is a common name not a proper one ... things like that ... they will come and we can see how this can be done.
GurlRacer
26th February 2009, 14:28
Again, glad the meeting went well. :)
A random idea popped up into my head (as they do!) - get an official wises map / google map etc and find the actual roadnames and then connect these with names that we know them as.
Eg: Name = Manawatu Gorge ---- official direction = State highway 3 between Woodville and Ashhurst (Napier Rd)
or
The Rima's ---- official direction = State highway 2 between Featherston and Kaitoke, Upper Hutt.
Could make a small thread/website about it - not so much for the emergency services to use but for us to be more aware??? :)
chanceyy
26th February 2009, 14:35
cheers Kari
yes I live on State Highway 57 more commonly known as Arapaepae Road .. and my mailing addy is Arapaepae Road .. also we have double numbering as well .. confused?? .... Emergency services are ..
Nasty
26th February 2009, 14:36
These are the things that we are looking at sorting ... They have specfic software .. and I think they are going to work a way of engaging us well which will complement their abilities to add information to that.
nudemetalz
26th February 2009, 21:21
Awesome that the meeting has gone well.
Thinking of you, Kari.
MadDuck
26th February 2009, 21:27
These are the things that we are looking at sorting ... They have specfic software .. and I think they are going to work a way of engaging us well which will complement their abilities to add information to that.
That has to be the best news. Working together to maybe prevent another tragedy. Nasty all I can say is :hug:
mujambee
27th February 2009, 02:42
Some of the telecom mobiles have assisted GPS for emergancies. Even their cheepie ones have it, but don't have map software.
I've got GPS and maps on mine as well.
All you do is read off the numbers.
If you can, upgrade. It is another technology that might save a life.
Cell phones can be tracked down to the specific cell they last reported to. There is no new technology needed here, just a bit of work on the side of the operator.
Here in Spain you can authorise people to track down your cell phone; all they need to do is send a SMS and they receive your approximate location. I've heard that is linked to emergency services, so if you call 112 and faint, they are supposed to track down your phone untill they find you.
Nasty
27th February 2009, 05:49
Cell phones can be tracked down to the specific cell they last reported to. There is no new technology needed here, just a bit of work on the side of the operator.
Here in Spain you can authorise people to track down your cell phone; all they need to do is send a SMS and they receive your approximate location. I've heard that is linked to emergency services, so if you call 112 and faint, they are supposed to track down your phone untill they find you.
That is great ... and I think can be done here ... but he was not in an area where cellphones even worked ... there is a large area in that part of the country which is just too ruggard for anything to work.
davebullet
27th February 2009, 06:56
If I knew emergency services vehicles were fitted with GPS, and I was planning trips on country roads then I would definitely buy a GPS unit and fit it to the bike.
Taking this a step further, the GPS could trigger a 111 call if the tip sensor on the bike has been active for more than 1 minute or not actively cancelled by the rider.
Dave.
munster
27th February 2009, 07:50
A portable EPIRB like trampers & Hunters use would be the go.
http://www.triginstruments.co.nz/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=50&products_id=874
3umph
27th February 2009, 07:54
http://www.406beaconhire.co.nz
you can hire beacons
BMWST?
27th February 2009, 08:16
even the most basic telecom cellphones have a "location" feature.Thats going to be an excellent outcome,ie common names vs official names.The best i could do most times would be the state highway number with approx kilometres from/to next town.
sunhuntin
27th February 2009, 08:30
even the most basic telecom cellphones have a "location" feature.Thats going to be an excellent outcome,ie common names vs official names.The best i could do most times would be the state highway number with approx kilometres from/to next town.
same here. when riding, if i come along a side road, i try and read the town direction sign that is generally opposite [ie <<<bulls taupo>>>] so that if anything happens ive got a rough idea of where im at. do the numbers on farm fences mean anything to emergency services? what about bridge numbers? creek/river/other water way names?
that tip sensor idea is a good idea... but might need to be longer than a minute to activate. last time the bike fell over, it took longer than a minute to get her back up. id imagine bigger bikes like harleys and goldwings would take longer as well.
Mom
27th February 2009, 08:38
The numbers on fences are usually to do with the farms dairy supply number and probably dont/wont mean anything to the emergency services. The numbers on rural letter boxes do though. They are a calculation of the distance from the start of the road and were promarily introduced to help emergency services locate rural properties. For example I used to live at 18 Phillips Road, 180 metres from the turnoff, my neighbour up the road was #6, there were no houses between us.
sunhuntin
27th February 2009, 08:44
kool, thanks mom. will tuck that away in the back of the brain for future reference.
NordieBoy
27th February 2009, 08:44
even the most basic telecom cellphones have a "location" feature.
My phone isn't "basic" and has no location feature.
NordieBoy
27th February 2009, 08:45
If I knew emergency services vehicles were fitted with GPS, and I was planning trips on country roads then I would definitely buy a GPS unit and fit it to the bike.
Taking this a step further, the GPS could trigger a 111 call if the tip sensor on the bike has been active for more than 1 minute or not actively cancelled by the rider.
Dave.
SPOT is the one you're looking for.
BMWST?
27th February 2009, 09:05
My phone isn't "basic" and has no location feature.
mine is and has...:)
Road Guardian
27th February 2009, 11:15
Hi All
Not wanting to get to involved in a heated discussion about what when wrong, I can make some points that may be useful.
- Location, Location, Location
When you call up 111 and ask for an Ambulance, the first thing they ask is the exact location of your accident. If you are able to, give the call taker the exact road name you are currently on and a house address or a RAPID (Rural Address Property Identifier, e.g. distance from start of road allocation number).
If they are unsure exactly where you are, they may ask for a cross road. This may be a 3 or 4 way intersection nearest to your location. E.g. If you are driving on Mosbys road and you passed Alans road on your right before the accident, that can be used as a cross road reference.
If this isn't getting anywhere, then the call taker in comms have other ways of gaining more info.
- Name Confusions
I think the ideas brought up by sunhuntin and GurlRacer are good ideas, and I guess that is what the course of action will be by North Comms. Although we use nicknames and other names for certain roads, If we learn the real names of the roads that would make things easier for gaining a location.
- GPS
Yes and No
If you are able to supply GPS data to ambulance comms, that speeds up the process of finding your location. They can input a set of co-ordinates into the CAD and "should" be able to find your location. Having said that they will still ask for Road names, (see above) for conformation of location.
In the ambulances, we use Mobile Data Terminals, which bring up all the information of the location and further details of the location. However, these do not have any mapping technology in them At This Stage, in the future they may introduce some mapping into them. So ambulances cannot go to a set GPS co-ordinates unless they have a hand held GPS on board.
Which most don't, most of us have Navmans/Tom Toms etc on board, which are useless in that regards. Those of you with GPS in your phones, use that where possible.
- Cell phone Triangulation
As far as I am aware, we cannot find a persons location based on their last mobile phone call, or one txt message. Technology does not exist here yet. But the police can find a phone based on interface with the mobile phone company, a mobile phone call, and three mobile phone towers, apparently this takes a long time. But I am speculating here. I believe the police are going to try new technology this year with TXT 111's. Having said that, we have crap phone coverage in NZ, and mobile phone or not, it does not bring back Bret.
I hope this clears up somethings, Nasty you have my full support with this investigation, good luck!
Ixion
27th February 2009, 14:04
The numbers on fences are usually to do with the farms dairy supply number and probably dont/wont mean anything to the emergency services. The numbers on rural letter boxes do though. They are a calculation of the distance from the start of the road and were promarily introduced to help emergency services locate rural properties. For example I used to live at 18 Phillips Road, 180 metres from the turnoff, my neighbour up the road was #6, there were no houses between us.
But nine out of ten rural properties have NO numbers on their letter boxes (maybe a name).And even when there are numbers most of the time they are hidden behind bushes or so old and worn that they are impossible to read, especially at night. But they ALWAYS have the milk tanker number. If I have to go to a rural property I always ask for the milk tanker number, because they always know that, it's always correct, unique (a lot of rural roads duplicate numbers! even the Great South Rd in Auckland does, in fact it triplicates them); and the MTN is always very very clear and easy to see.On account of the milk tanker drivers won't shag about trying to amke out a hard to read number. No number, no milk collection
Mom
27th February 2009, 15:38
But nine out of ten rural properties have NO numbers on their letter boxes (maybe a name).
I for got to say there is no requirement for people to actually use these numbers, which seems silly. I hear what you are saying too about confusion.
Just here in the quaint little hamlet of Warkworth, State Highway One is officailly called heading north, Browns Road, becomes Anderson Road, becomes Great North Road and then continues on being State Highway One. All this in about 1 kilometre.
scumdog
27th February 2009, 15:59
But nine out of ten rural properties have NO numbers on their letter boxes (maybe a name).
Down here most have a nice big(ish) blue plate with the RAPID number on it and mostly it's nailed to a prominant post at the start of the driveway.
In my job I travel over a lot of isolated roads in all sorts of areas and it's rare not to find that RAPID number, in fact right now I can't remember the last time that happened...
Ixion
27th February 2009, 16:24
Down here most have a nice big(ish) blue plate with the RAPID number on it and mostly it's nailed to a prominant post at the start of the driveway.
In my job I travel over a lot of isolated roads in all sorts of areas and it's rare not to find that RAPID number, in fact right now I can't remember the last time that happened...
I think that's the Milk tanker number? About a five digit number, big blue letters?
Mom
27th February 2009, 16:28
I checked it out
http://www.gdc.govt.nz/Services/Rapid+Numbers.htm
But the tanker numbers are on a metal sign on the fence closest to the race leading to the shed.
pete376403
27th February 2009, 18:37
But nine out of ten rural properties have NO numbers on their letter boxes (maybe a name).And even when there are numbers most of the time they are hidden behind bushes or so old and worn that they are impossible to read, especially at night. But they ALWAYS have the milk tanker number. If I have to go to a rural property I always ask for the milk tanker number, because they always know that, it's always correct, unique (a lot of rural roads duplicate numbers! even the Great South Rd in Auckland does, in fact it triplicates them); and the MTN is always very very clear and easy to see.On account of the milk tanker drivers won't shag about trying to amke out a hard to read number. No number, no milk collection
Is there an equivalent for sheep, pig or other non-dairy farms? (serious question)
klingon
27th February 2009, 19:05
I think that's the Milk tanker number? About a five digit number, big blue letters?
I checked it out
http://www.gdc.govt.nz/Services/Rapid+Numbers.htm
But the tanker numbers are on a metal sign on the fence closest to the race leading to the shed.
...The plates are blue with reflective white numbers to make them easy to see at night.
Your RAPID plate will be put in a prominent place close to your driveway, on a letterbox, gatepost or fence. The plate will face toward the road...
That site is from the Gisborne District Council. Details may be different in other districts but the plates and the basic system are the same.
On my property (in the rural far north) the Far North District Council came by one day and nailed the number 142 to a kanuka tree near the beginning of the driveway. I believe that means I'm 1420 metres (1.42 km) from the intersection with the main road.
BMWST?
27th February 2009, 20:57
there is a newish numbering system where( as klingon has already stated) whereby the propert number is related to km from "main road".I am going to a place on sunday...its number was 237 abot 6 months ago but now its 707(7.7 km? from SH2)
Ixion
27th February 2009, 21:23
Is there an equivalent for sheep, pig or other non-dairy farms? (serious question)
Dunno. Might be they use the same system, just a general "find a farm" number.
Buellluva
27th February 2009, 22:22
Hi Nasty,
sorry to hear about your loss, I've had a couple of close friends go on bikes and it sucks.
I did 6 years in the ambo's in comm's up in Auckland, some as a TL in charge of the room, and this sort of thing does happen from time to time, it is a sad fact of life but these guys are human and do make mistakes. It was every Call-takers/Dispatchers worst nightmare.
I'm sure not trying to defend this case, best of luck with the investigation, but to give you an idea of problems faced, when we took over Northland, we would get calls for a big crash on "snake hill", the locals didn't know the street name, and this is where problems start, when call-takers or dispatchers don't know the area.
It was an area we constantly trained on, we did trips to other areas where the local ambo's would show us around and give us the locations of places like snake hill etc.
My opinion on this, right or wrong, is that there are only 3 ambo comms centers now, instead of about 7. A lot of the comms members in the smaller centers that got closed, decided not to take on jobs in the big smoke, ChCH, Wlg & Akl, so huge amounts of local knowledge, that stops this sort of thing happening, was lost and call-takers/dispatchers end up working off maps in areas they are unfamiliar with.
Knowing your exact location sure helps, always know the name of the road, or if its a state highway what the nearest town is, in the country the road markers . Most of all if you have to make that call to 111, be calm and get the call-taker to repeat all your address info back to you, make sure they have the right address.
As I said I'm not trying to defend this case, just trying to let you know how hard, and what obstacles are faced every day by these guys.
All the best.
Nasty
28th February 2009, 07:55
Hi Nasty,
sorry to hear about your loss, I've had a couple of close friends go on bikes and it sucks.
I did 6 years in the ambo's in comm's up in Auckland, some as a TL in charge of the room, and this sort of thing does happen from time to time, it is a sad fact of life but these guys are human and do make mistakes. It was every Call-takers/Dispatchers worst nightmare.
I'm sure not trying to defend this case, best of luck with the investigation, but to give you an idea of problems faced, when we took over Northland, we would get calls for a big crash on "snake hill", the locals didn't know the street name, and this is where problems start, when call-takers or dispatchers don't know the area.
It was an area we constantly trained on, we did trips to other areas where the local ambo's would show us around and give us the locations of places like snake hill etc.
My opinion on this, right or wrong, is that there are only 3 ambo comms centers now, instead of about 7. A lot of the comms members in the smaller centers that got closed, decided not to take on jobs in the big smoke, ChCH, Wlg & Akl, so huge amounts of local knowledge, that stops this sort of thing happening, was lost and call-takers/dispatchers end up working off maps in areas they are unfamiliar with.
Knowing your exact location sure helps, always know the name of the road, or if its a state highway what the nearest town is, in the country the road markers . Most of all if you have to make that call to 111, be calm and get the call-taker to repeat all your address info back to you, make sure they have the right address.
As I said I'm not trying to defend this case, just trying to let you know how hard, and what obstacles are faced every day by these guys.
All the best.
Thank you for your condolences ... and good that you do not defend this screw up - as the investigation will show that is partly what it is. My job is to make sure that this does not happen again ... the transcripts will be interesting - I know they show ALL INFORMATION to get where they needed to was given - in three of the calls received by the centres - this in itself has led to policy changes - which will come out of the recommendation.
My background is a little different to most - I was involved in health standards for years - I was involved in the ambulance standards - I know about care and what is required - I also know how to go about getting things changed to make it better. This is the journey I am on. This system will improve and that will be a legacy to Grub. There are no excuses - and no apologies make this better ... I am lucky to have a really good understanding of the systems and how they work or don't - which means we can make them better.
mujambee
28th February 2009, 08:02
. . . and call-takers/dispatchers end up working off maps in areas they are unfamiliar with.
Then it may be a good idea to always carry with you a map of the area, so you can see the same as the guy on the other side can see...
scumdog
28th February 2009, 08:04
I think that's the Milk tanker number? About a five digit number, big blue letters?
Nah, they're rectangular and smaller in hight, lots of places have both numbers - maybe soembody more pic.-savvy could post a pic of both??
scumdog
28th February 2009, 08:07
there is a newish numbering system where( as klingon has already stated) whereby the propert number is related to km from "main road".I am going to a place on sunday...its number was 237 abot 6 months ago but now its 707(7.7 km? from SH2)
Yup, they now indicate how many km from the start of the road, save fluffing around guessing how far down the road the property is, no use cruising slowly looking for a place when the RAPID number is 984 or similar and you've just turned onto the road.
pete376403
28th February 2009, 10:08
Around 1989 when I was at IBM I installed an AS400 system at Wgtn Free Ambulance that was going to hold a database of all streets in the area that WFA service. The plan was a dispatcher could call up a map of an area and use that to direct the ambulance crews. AFAIK it never came to anything.
Now they could just go online to Wises maps
sunhuntin
28th February 2009, 10:48
- Name Confusions
I think the ideas brought up by sunhuntin and GurlRacer are good ideas, and I guess that is what the course of action will be by North Comms. Although we use nicknames and other names for certain roads, If we learn the real names of the roads that would make things easier for gaining a location.
this lead me to another thought. each ambulance covers a set area, is that right [except in extreme circustances like mass pile up etc] could each ambo be provided with a tabbed flip folder containing small maps like in the small spiral books? the maps could then show a certain area and hold both common and proper road names [ie, map b could show the forgotten highway, while maps a and c show the areas on either side]
the maps could be related directly to the area the ambulance normally covers.
the full maps could be kept in ambos for situations where they need to travel outside their usual zone.
the index could be done by both common and correct names.
Buellluva
28th February 2009, 10:59
Good on you nasty, its real hard to not be bitter about a case like this, when its personal with a loss.
I agree with you completely, finger pointing and assigning blame, may help to feel like you have had some justice done, but in reality achieves very little. The most important thing out of this case is to make sure procedures are implemented, so this never happens again. That they learn from this, and that no-one else goes through what you guys went through is the number one thing, at least then you can feel something was achieved by grub's passing.
Good for you for having the courage to follow this up, a lot of others would be so lost in their grief they wouldn't bother. The only way to get things changed is to make sure the ambo's keep learning and constantly evolving by putting the pressure on them and demanding answers, also making sure they tell you what they will change, so hopefully these things cease happening.
Well done, you're doing a great service to all motorists, making it safer for all of us. I hope time will ease your suffering, thanks from all bikers.
speights_bud
28th February 2009, 11:08
Dunno. Might be they use the same system, just a general "find a farm" number.
mum and dads place is '57' as it is 0.57km from the main road turn off, it has been this for many years, most rural driveways etc will have a blue number on it, if it's hanging from a sign as such it's probably the dairy farm reference one, the original blue plates were nailed to a post or something
Ixion
28th February 2009, 12:19
What happens if there are two houses within 100 metres? They can't both be '57' ? And what if there are two houses opposite each, on each side of the road?
I've never seen such numbers up here. The big blue really easy to see tanker numbers. And the usually missing obscured and invisible house numbers.
scumdog
28th February 2009, 12:22
What happens if there are two houses within 100 metres? They can't both be '57' ? And what if there are two houses opposite each, on each side of the road?
I've never seen such numbers up here. The big blue really easy to see tanker numbers. And the usually missing obscured and invisible house numbers.
Unlekely ever to be EXACTLY opposite each other so most likely they will have numbers like 57 and 58 (or 56).
Road Guardian
28th February 2009, 12:53
this lead me to another thought. each ambulance covers a set area, is that right [except in extreme circustances like mass pile up etc] could each ambo be provided with a tabbed flip folder containing small maps like in the small spiral books? the maps could then show a certain area and hold both common and proper road names [ie, map b could show the forgotten highway, while maps a and c show the areas on either side]
the maps could be related directly to the area the ambulance normally covers.
the full maps could be kept in ambos for situations where they need to travel outside their usual zone.
the index could be done by both common and correct names.
Yes, most vehicles have a town/suburbs to cover, although they may move around and be on standby in certain areas for coverage. Particular in the cities.
Yes, all ambulances should have a through map book of some sort in each vehicle, I do not know how each region setup their own map books, as there will all ways be a discrepancy between a different regions.
I know in our region we carry our own map books for our area, and we also carry maps of neighboring areas.
I think one way would be to have a couple of pages at the back of the map book with a list of common names and next to them the actual names with cross references to the main maps.
Having said that, I still think the best approach would be to have all that information in each communication center, where they translate the common name given as the location into the actual name for the emergency crews to respond to. As you can easily confuse people if you start using a new process.
The other thing to keep in mind is that the local crews will have local knowledge of these kind of places. I remember a job that told us the location was the first iron bridge down the said road, and I knew exactly where that was, based on local knowledge. But crews may not know the names that we (bikers) call them.
Ixion
28th February 2009, 12:54
Unlekely ever to be EXACTLY opposite each other so most likely they will have numbers like 57 and 58 (or 56).
If I can find one, does that mean they will have to scrap the whole system?
Ixion
28th February 2009, 12:59
It is a great pity that not everyone has my innate ability to give clear concise and utterly unmistakeable directions. Noone, (except Disco Dan, but he is beyond human help) could get lost following my directions.
However, since that cannot be , why in Gods name do they not equip the ambulances with a GPS unit. Which could easily be updated via computer with all sorts of local and useful information. This is, after all, the 22nd century. So why are they still faffing around with bits of pulped tree ?
And why can't we have emergency beacony thingies for our bikes? At a sane price . I think you can get them, but they are megabucks, and there is a vast amount of bureaucratic shit to use them. They need to be $29.99 max, and you just push the red button. Which calls 111 and transmits your geo coords. Sorted.
slofox
28th February 2009, 13:12
It is a great pity that not everyone has my innate ability to give clear concise and utterly unmistakeable directions. Noone, (except Disco Dan, but he is beyond human help) could get lost following my directions.
However, since that cannot be , why in Gods name do they not equip the ambulances with a GPS unit. Which could easily be updated via computer with all sorts of local and useful information. This is, after all, the 22nd century. So why are they still faffing around with bits of pulped tree ?
And why can't we have emergency beacony thingies for our bikes? At a sane price . I think you can get them, but they are megabucks, and there is a vast amount of bureaucratic shit to use them. They need to be $29.99 max, and you just push the red button. Which calls 111 and transmits your geo coords. Sorted.
But but but Ixion, what you say makes SENSE!!! Ain't nobody in their right minds gonna take notice of SENSE. Hell, the more complicated the better here in lil ole enzed...try employing someone if ya don't believe it....
samgab
28th February 2009, 13:14
I work at Police North Comms as a call taker, and know first hand how difficult it can be to locate someone who calls in from a cell phone, especially when they are on/near the state highways.
I agree, something needs to be done, to better identify locations.
The country could be divided up into a fine grid, with unique identifiers for each small grid section, then there needs to be location markers on every single state highway every few metres... What if the location references were printed on the little white markers that are everywhere?
It's a shame also that we don't have triangulation technology linked into our systems. In the movies, they always seem to know where a cell phone caller is down to a few mm's... Unfortunately in real life it doesn't work that way, and when you call 111 from a cell phone you could be anywhere in NZ, and we rely on the caller knowing their location and being able to clearly and accurately describe it. In a panic situation, this can be very difficult at times.
eg:
"I need help and I'm between Taupo and Rotorua on the state highway, and that's all I know"...
Where do we send the police/ambos?
"What state highway are you on?"
"I have no idea, just hurry up and get here"...
"Which direction were you going, North or South?"
"I don't know"
"Where were you heading to?"
"Taupo"
"Okay, how long ago did you leave Rotorua?"
"Maybe 10 minutes to half an hour ago..."
etc.
I know the cell companies can triangulate cell phones quite accurately; for instance Vodafone can do it so accurately they can offer a commercial service where your cellphone becomes a home phone when you are on your own property, and it's accurate enough to know exactly when you walk out your gate, so that it can become like a cell phone again.
They have the technology, but it isn't available to us, unfortunately.
Had ambos been able to access location data for the cell calls, they would have been able to go to the exact location.
Same goes in Police emergencies, where the caller calls from a cell phone, but is unable to speak, or communicate in English, or describe their whereabouts, for any number of reasons.
I hope some progress is made in this area soon.
Props to any out there who are taking active steps to find solutions to this problem.
mujambee
28th February 2009, 20:00
The country could be divided up into a fine grid, with unique identifiers for each small grid section, then there needs to be location markers on every single state highway every few metres... What if the location references were printed on the little white markers that are everywhere?
http://www.sandovaldelareina.com/images/2005/km-27-1.JPG
Those are all over the place here, there's no mistake on where you are. Problem is that they are so apart (1Km) that are quite difficult to spot from an accident, and few people will leave an injured person unattended and start on a 2Km trip to find the post.
A cheaper solution may be give all manteinance squads a set of stencils and some paint. After any works are done on a road, a mark should be painted every 250m. Something on that way may be easy to achieve and cheap enough that no one can complain on it.
GOONR
1st March 2009, 13:15
...why in Gods name do they not equip the ambulances with a GPS unit. Which could easily be updated via computer with all sorts of local and useful information. This is, after all, the 22nd century. So why are they still faffing around with bits of pulped tree ?
Totally agree with you, this is definitely the direction that the emergency services need to head in and I can't beleive that this isn't the case already.
And why can't we have emergency beacony thingies for our bikes? At a sane price . I think you can get them, but they are megabucks, and there is a vast amount of bureaucratic shit to use them. They need to be $29.99 max, and you just push the red button. Which calls 111 and transmits your geo coords. Sorted.
I wouldn't mind paying the mega mucks for one of these if I thought it would it would save a life, mine or any one else's. I know that when you buy a beacon you have to register it. When you do that can you let them know that you are a biker? The emergency services would (possibly / hopefully) then have an idea of the situation they are going to attend and more importantly your exact location. The emergency service find people out in the middle of nowhere, Km's from a road using beacons so no worries about not knowing the name of the road, cell coverage etc.
If you can let them know that you are a biker, and the response was geared up for that then I would get one, I don't even ride just yet but I could keep one in the car for now. If it helps just one person out then surely it has to be the best money spent.
Daffyd
1st March 2009, 13:33
What happens if there are two houses within 100 metres? They can't both be '57' ? And what if there are two houses opposite each, on each side of the road?
I've never seen such numbers up here. The big blue really easy to see tanker numbers. And the usually missing obscured and invisible house numbers.
The RAPID numbers measure distance in multiples of 10 metres.
And, as with urban street numbering, odd numbers on the left, even on the right. (Starting from 0.)
Example: My RAPID no is '7'. I am 70 metres from the corner on the left hand side.
NordieBoy
1st March 2009, 15:06
I wouldn't mind paying the mega mucks for one of these if I thought it would it would save a life, mine or any one else's. I know that when you buy a beacon you have to register it. When you do that can you let them know that you are a biker? The emergency services would (possibly / hopefully) then have an idea of the situation they are going to attend and more importantly your exact location. The emergency service find people out in the middle of nowhere, Km's from a road using beacons so no worries about not knowing the name of the road, cell coverage etc.
If you can let them know that you are a biker, and the response was geared up for that then I would get one, I don't even ride just yet but I could keep one in the car for now. If it helps just one person out then surely it has to be the best money spent.
SPOT is the one you're after...
http://www.findmespot.com/australianewzealand/index3.php
$115us per year
http://www.findmespot.com/australianewzealand/pricing.php
$150us per year for $100,000us coverage including helicopter extraction underwritten by Lloyd's of London - for any emergency service expenses incurred.
GOONR
1st March 2009, 15:35
SPOT is the one you're after...
http://www.findmespot.com/australianewzealand/index3.php
$115us per year
http://www.findmespot.com/australianewzealand/pricing.php
$150us per year for $100,000us coverage including helicopter extraction underwritten by Lloyd's of London - for any emergency service expenses incurred.
Looks like a good product / service, ORB (http://www.orb.co.nz/products-services/navigation/emergency-tracking/spot-satellite-tracker.html) do them in NZ, not that expensive to buy but I guess they make that up on the annual fee.
Toot Toot
1st March 2009, 15:48
Following this thread with great interest. Thankyou for posting this up. Keen to see your updates and final results.
BMWST?
1st March 2009, 19:37
The country could be divided up into a fine grid, with unique identifiers for each small grid section, .
it already is,there is a very good map system you know.The numbers as you say coulld be stencilled on the roadside reflectors.
swbarnett
1st March 2009, 20:30
It's a shame also that we don't have triangulation technology linked into our systems.
I, for one, am very glad they don't. Do you really want TPTB to know where you are at will?
Road Guardian
1st March 2009, 21:46
why in Gods name do they not equip the ambulances with a GPS unit. Which could easily be updated via computer with all sorts of local and useful information. This is, after all, the 22nd century. So why are they still faffing around with bits of pulped tree ?
All ambulances are equipped with a GPS unit, it transmits the location of the ambulance to the communication centers, so that they can check we (the emergency crews) are heading to the correct location.
And yes, that GPS unit (a Mobile Data Terminal) has all sorts of important information about the location. We still use paper maps, because electronic technology has a nasty habit of falling over just when you need it.
The problem here is not getting the ambulance to the correct location, its getting the location exactly correct in the first place that is the problem. That is why when ever you ask for an ambulance, the first thing they ask you is "Ambulance, what is the exact address of your emergency". That is why we need to be very clear and precise when calling up the emergency services.
MarkH
1st March 2009, 22:09
I have a normal car GPS unit, on it I can enter latitude and longitude and ask it to direct me there. I can also check the latitude & longitude of my current location and ask the 111 operator to send an ambulance to those co-ordinates. I think as this technology gets cheaper more motorists will have them. Obviously it would be trivially easy for someone at comms to check up on the internet where the co-ordinates are (I'm pretty sure you can do that with google earth) and then direct an ambulance to that location.
My GPS also gives me the proper name of the road that I am on, which makes a nice double check with the co-ordinates.
BTW
Big ups to Nasty for doing something positive after suffering such a huge loss in her life. I don't know if anything discussed here would have made a difference in her partners case, or for the next accident called in - but if it can save one or two lives in a year then it is a totally worthwhile thing to do!
vagrant
2nd March 2009, 09:19
If I knew emergency services vehicles were fitted with GPS, and I was planning trips on country roads then I would definitely buy a GPS unit and fit it to the bike.
Taking this a step further, the GPS could trigger a 111 call if the tip sensor on the bike has been active for more than 1 minute or not actively cancelled by the rider.
Dave.
This is currently under development. The prototype configuration uses the core of a prepay cellphone, a gps receiver and a motion switch. The biggest limitation with it is the lack of decent cellphone coverage over some the best areas that we like to ride in.
pete376403
2nd March 2009, 16:35
This is currently under development. The prototype configuration uses the core of a prepay cellphone, a gps receiver and a motion switch. The biggest limitation with it is the lack of decent cellphone coverage over some the best areas that we like to ride in.
My new work cellphone (Sanyo SCP-6650) has GPS locating built in. Would be ideal apart from the fact that, as you say, cell coverage is not the best. (The other problem is the phone is a piece of shit, crap sound quality,etc, but we're not discussing that ATM)
BMWST?
3rd March 2009, 09:14
my telecom phone has a "location" feature which you can turn on or off....whats that?
Nasty
3rd March 2009, 10:18
my telecom phone has a "location" feature which you can turn on or off....whats that?
Tells you what cell tower is being activated with your phone.
Phcyso
12th March 2009, 21:27
I know the cell companies can triangulate cell phones quite accurately; for instance Vodafone can do it so accurately they can offer a commercial service where your cellphone becomes a home phone when you are on your own property, and it's accurate enough to know exactly when you walk out your gate, so that it can become like a cell phone again.
They have the technology, but it isn't available to us, unfortunately.
While it is true that vodafone can track a cell phone signal to a fairly small raidus it is not as simple as you say.
To narrow down where a cell phone is located requires people to actually go through the log files and do the math on the signal strength at the time and by how many cell sites it can see. because of this it is only done when a warrant or other such official request comes through.
the service you mention above actually works on setting up a 'memory' of your home cell sites and relies on your Sim card to talk back to the network about when it is in that area. the network doesn't really know where your home is, all it knows is that you are in your 'home zone'
Radar
13th March 2009, 12:12
FWIW:
I contacted the company that sells emergency locator beacons in NZ, Trig Instruments, and for land use they recommend a beacon that costs $530 (units for use at sea cost $725). There is no annual subscription or other costs.
See this web page:
http://www.triginstruments.co.nz/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=873
Griffin
13th March 2009, 16:11
this lead me to another thought. each ambulance covers a set area, is that right
This isnt necessarily the case. For instance, if the Ambulance 'usually' assigned to an area gets a job, then (depending on resources) another Ambulance from a neighbouring area will be sent to cover the gap left by the one that is now unavailable. It is like a big game of chess, always moving resources around to ensure adequate coverage... and this can't always be acheived.
Here in Wellington for example, the crew in an Upper Hutt based ambulance can easily end up sitting on station at Paraparaumu to cover the area, sometimes more than once during a day/night shift.
The situation in rural areas is magnified ten fold due to large coverage areas and shortage of funds for renumerating paid staff... hence volunteers are often relied upon to take the reigns. That lends itself to a whole range of other issues such as Volunteer Officer availability and appropriate qualification / experience / knowledge etc.
Area knowledge is only one part of the huge range of problems affecting the Ambulance Service in Rural areas.
Good luck with your mission Nasty... I hope you find some solutions
mujambee
16th March 2009, 07:52
To narrow down where a cell phone is located requires people to actually go through the log files and do the math on the signal strength at the time and by how many cell sites it can see. because of this it is only done when a warrant or other such official request comes through.
There is software that can do that instantly; my wife can track my phone by just sending an SMS and it takes seconds...
NordieBoy
16th March 2009, 07:54
There is software that can do that instantly; my wife can track my phone by just sending an SMS and it takes seconds...
If your phone is GPS enabled.
Nasty
16th March 2009, 10:18
There is software that can do that instantly; my wife can track my phone by just sending an SMS and it takes seconds...
All very well and good, when you have the ability to transmit ... but in the part of the country where grub went down there was nothing for miles from where he was.
mujambee
16th March 2009, 23:40
As we are steering off the main subject, I've decided to split on a new thread (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?p=1984487#post1984487) the subject of phone locating.
If your phone is GPS enabled.
Not needed, see above link.
All very well and good, when you have the ability to transmit ... but in the part of the country where grub went down there was nothing for miles from where he was.
Was it just your provider or any operator?
mujambee
16th March 2009, 23:41
the helicopter also did but followed the road till they found him.
Would a smoke flare have helped them locate you?
Nasty
17th March 2009, 05:36
As we are steering off the main subject, I've decided to split on a new thread (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?p=1984487#post1984487) the subject of phone locating.
....
Was it just your provider or any operator?
There are large parts of New Zealand where any phone other than a satilite phone does not work. They do not work because of the terrain - to keep it simple the helicopter could also not radio they found him under they lifted up a bit - as radios also do not work.
Nasty
17th March 2009, 05:37
Would a smoke flare have helped them locate you?
Probably not ... but then again the right instructions to the service didn't work so we will never know will we.
Lucy
23rd March 2009, 21:50
Probably not ... but then again the right instructions to the service didn't work so we will never know will we.
So true. When I broke down on the Paraparas, it took nearly my whole cellphone battery to explain to the person where I was. "Are you near ...... don't know sorry, I'm 54 k from Raetihi which makes me 35k from Wanganui", ok, do you remember passing ......?" "no", "are there any cross streets near you?" no, there is nothing near me, I am 54 k from Raetihi and 35 k....." "ok, are you near.....?" "No idea, all I know is that I zeroed my trip meter at Raetihi Caltex and I've come exactly 54k", "oh, ok cool, so you are 54 k from Raetihi?" "yes"....(that is the short version).
Vodafone refuse to spend money to increase their coverage in the Naki anyway, let alone in the wops.
Good for you for persisting, you're a legend.
Probably not ... but then again the right instructions to the service didn't work so we will never know will we.
Does this sound remotely familiar to you?
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10564798
Nasty
2nd April 2009, 07:25
Does this sound remotely familiar to you?
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10564798
Too right .. scary as shit .. they are revising their report and we have a final meeting shortly. I think these people need to know they are fucking up and badly .. but they don't seem to be getting it :(
sunhuntin
2nd April 2009, 07:45
i honestly think cherish would have died reguardless in this case. and why did they elect to send her to palmy? marton is closer to wanganui. ive also got a feeling that the delay in her transport was the ambo pulling over to try and save her life, maybe doing cpr or something that couldnt be safely done while travelling. the fact that a family member was found guilty of her murder speaks volumes as well... its just the family trying to move the blame to someone else [like the kahuis saying their toddler killed the twins]
Okey Dokey
2nd April 2009, 08:06
Would a smoke flare have helped them locate you?
I guess the chopper pilots are pretty good at spotting accident scenes, but this isn't a totally silly suggestion.
crazybigal
2nd April 2009, 16:59
the use of RAPID numbers should be more well published.
And they should use them on powerpoles and load them up on GPS then anyone could make a call and read off the number and they would know exactly were you are.
http://www.police.govt.nz/news/tenone/20050722-275/feature_rapid.htm
mujambee
2nd April 2009, 19:58
I guess the chopper pilots are pretty good at spotting accident scenes, but this isn't a totally silly suggestion.
Se said the copter had to follow the road till they could find them, and that he had to lift just to be able to radio. A smoke flare can be seen up there from lots of Kms away, and would probably help them homing directly on the spot.
Anyhow, a presurized smoke canister is not something I'd like to carry with me when crashing. It turns out to be a silly suggestion after all.
riffer
20th October 2009, 12:39
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10604219
Something good coming out of Grub's untimely death.
Get on the site guys - http://myaddress.co.nz
and let's get some addresses sorted, particularly of the rural roads.
It may just help save someone's life here.
And even save some money for ACC... ;)
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