NZ law with regards to pay cuts?

[Hemex]

Ok... so HP bought over the company I work for (which is a US based company called EDS - we handle all Telecom, Fonterra, All the banks datawarehousing and IT requirements for some) for USD 14 billion sometime last year...

This morning there's an email from HP's CEO, Mark Hurd, to all employees saying that due to not meeting expected levels of revenue... EVERYONE, worldwide HP, EDS, and whoever the fuck else HP owns, is going to get a 5% pay cut.. He's taking a 20% cut..Take it the hardest, like a true leader (insert Tui ad) Yeah Right!
Have a look at his earnings (http://www.siliconbeat.com/2009/01/20/2522/) last year..
According to my calculations... hes only going to get 34.1 million a year now... oh woe is fuckin me... It'll take me the next hundred odd years to go close to what he earned in that one year!!

So, how (if it does...which I really hope so) does NZ law protect its employess from such dastardly acts?
Is this even fuckin fair?!

[Devil]

My brother works there too and I had the exact same discussion with him on Friday.
They cant cut your pay in NZ without agreement from you.
However, if people dont agree to have their pay cut, guess who's going to be on the redundancy shortlist!

[Devil]

Oh, while i'm here. that 20% cut of his is probably just to his base pay rate, which is 1. something million, not the 30 something million in bonus payments...

[Mully]

They cant cut your pay in NZ without agreement from you.
However, if people dont agree to have their pay cut, guess who's going to be on the redundancy shortlist!

Exactly what I was going to say. They can't unilaterally change the terms of your contract without you agreeing (in writing)

But yeah, you might get on the list if you don't agree.

Maybe time to dust off the old CV.

[Hemex]

Well thats good to hear... CV, here I come...
Being made redundant = 3 month pay out... one should hopefully line up a job in time for that... Have to wait and see..

[Hemex]

My brother works there too and I had the exact same discussion with him on Friday.
They cant cut your pay in NZ without agreement from you.
However, if people dont agree to have their pay cut, guess who's going to be on the redundancy shortlist!

Does he work in Smales Farm?

[Ixion]

The email is a worldwide one, which will not have taken any account of NZ employment law. It is very improbable that the CEO has ever heard of NZ let alone know that HP owns a company here.

Ask your HR department (or some more intelligent manager type person if you have one), what the EDS response is going to be)

Is your payroll processed through the States (unlikely) or locally. If locally states won't even know what people are getting paid individually

But,a s noted, NZ law does not allow a unilateral forced pay cut.

[Hemex]

The email is a worldwide one, which will not have taken any account of NZ employment law. It is very improbable that the CEO has ever heard of NZ let alone know that HP owns a company here.

Ask your HR department (or some more intelligent manager type person if you have one), what the EDS response is going to be)

Is your payroll processed through the States (unlikely) or locally. If locally states won't even know what people are getting paid individually

But,a s noted, NZ law does not allow a unilateral forced pay cut.

EDS is an american company... was #1 on the Fortune 500 IT companies... he might know that the company has a foot here after spending 14 billion to acquire it..
All our bonuses and pay rises are processed through the head office in Plano, Texas..
Although yours thoughts on his knowledge about local law.. very true!

Payroll keeps responding with 'we'll get back as soon as we hear something concrete'...Thought I should ask the knowledgeable ones..so here I am on KB :2thumbsup

[Devil]

Does he work in Smales Farm?

Yer, Level 2.
Asia Pacific Integration Engineering - GM
IE-GM Identity and Access Management

[Skyryder]

My advice is (if your are willing to accept the cut)t put a time frame on this so that there is an expiray date and your wages will return to precut levels.


Skyryder

[mashman]

I used to work for HP... never again... but the guys i knew had the bonuses stopped last year and knew about the pay cuts last year... A chat was had with some of the senior management for Asia Pacific (Hurd but not seen was in the building) and the reason for them failing in NZ (despite the fact that BA's did DB design, Architects coded and Managers did nothing but feather their nests). It turns out that they applied the American business model to the NZ market... hmmmm... which means that they apply a 3:1 (business:employee) hourly rate... I've seen the papers personally and it's just not viable over here...

Get out if you can... It'll only get worse once the management get their teeth into the workings of EDS... I only know 1 guy that stayed and he's talking about leaving... Failing that enjoy your pay-cut, but ask them about E-Awards for salary top up (just don't tell anybody els about them :yes:)

[Max Preload]

My advice is (if your are willing to accept the cut)t put a time frame on this so that there is an expiray date and your wages will return to precut levels.

Might be tricky if they're on a collective contract.

[mikeey01]

In a nut shell....

Under present legislation they cannot do that.
Under present legislation they must prove they need to make cuts. i.e. open the books up!

Take a look through these web sites, if you should be able to find some info that will help. My lunch is over, gotta go back to work, I'll check back when I'm home later!

http://www.legislation.govt.nz/

http://www.ers.dol.govt.nz/publications/era_info.html

[Hemex]

My advice is (if your are willing to accept the cut)t put a time frame on this so that there is an expiray date and your wages will return to precut levels.


Skyryder

Thanks for the advice mate... I'm looking to go elsewhere... This place is just a fucking waste..If I cant get another job by the time they bring the cuts in... If I dont get a job by then, I'll have to see what the flipside is for not agreeing to it... Most likely to be redundancy and If I still dont get another job... Guess ill have to take the cut...can't go without a job as the mortgage payments have my balls nailed to the fence!


Might be tricky if they're on a collective contract.

What is a collective contract?

[Max Preload]

What is a collective contract?

Two or more people can form a union and collectively bargain for their employment contract. If you're a union member of some sort, they have sometimes negotiated an agreement which covers all members of the union and if you are party to that changes will require a great deal of work. I'm not sure if you have to be party to collective employment if you're a member of the union who made it.

I don't know that much about the details as I'm self-employed, but I gather that's the general jist of it.

[portokiwi]

Get into a union fast.
:headbang:

[Hitcher]

Is this even fuckin fair?!

Do you want a fucking job?

[Hemex]

Do you want a fucking job?

You offering? Or asking about the possible status after refusing a fuckin paycut?

[Finn]

I've told my staff that in such dire times, the redundancies will continue until moral improves.

[Hitcher]

You offering? Or asking about the possible status after refusing a fuckin paycut?

The fucking latter.

[Hemex]

The fucking latter.


Grumpy cunt aren't you? :).. love it...

Do I want a fuckin job.... What do you think dude? If a paycut means I'm getting upset...think I can survive without a job?
Think before asking if your not advising...fuck's sake

[Hemex]

I've told my staff that in such dire times, the redundancies will continue until moral improves.

Thats what we've been told... Don't know when the morale will ever improve over here though...

[Finn]

Grumpy cunt aren't you? ;).. love it...


No, he's just misunderfuckinstood.

[Hemex]

No, he's just misunderfuckinstood.

Poor bastard...Life's a bitch and this thread is proof... Maybe should let him loose on the CEO..

[mikeey01]

Firstly your not alone, EDS has some fairly clever people working for them all over the country, I'm sure they won't take this sitting down!

If you haven't got a copy of your contract, get one, read it and have some understanding of it.
Look for any provision for a reduction of hours, if there is none then the employer (EDS) has few options. I know ppl that work for EDS but have never asked them if they are under an individual or collective agreement. (your contract should state what it is)

Look for any provision for redundancy, see if there is any entitlement. A common mis-conception is there will be some, the ERA ( employment relations act 2000) does not have any right to redundancy compensation. (I'm sure there was an amendment to this i.e. allowing for something, but I cannot find it at present)

If someone is made redundant then under the ERA, the employer must follow mandatory procedures such as, a fair process and allowing time off for interviews etc.
There is a whole raft of stuff that must be covered off, either way they must act in “Good faith”

I'd recommend you have a chat with others firstly and see where / what is being done as a group approach, If nothing then your on your own and only have your contract and nz's employment legislation.

In times like this, as you have only been informed of perhaps a reduction of hours and not redundancy you could still get (are not hiding anything) some income protection insurance, it would cover you if your made redundant. Not cheap but it's worth it!
Sorry for such a long speal!

[Hemex]

Firstly your not alone, EDS has some fairly clever people working for them all over the country, I'm sure they won't take this sitting down!

If you haven't got a copy of your contract, get one, read it and have some understanding of it.
Look for any provision for a reduction of hours, if there is none then the employer (EDS) has few options. I know ppl that work for EDS but have never asked them if they are under an individual or collective agreement. (your contract should state what it is)

Look for any provision for redundancy, see if there is any entitlement. A common mis-conception is there will be some, the ERA ( employment relations act 2000) does not have any right to redundancy compensation. (I'm sure there was an amendment to this i.e. allowing for something, but I cannot find it at present)

If someone is made redundant then under the ERA, the employer must follow mandatory procedures such as, a fair process and allowing time off for interviews etc.
There is a whole raft of stuff that must be covered off, either way they must act in “Good faith”

I'd recommend you have a chat with others firstly and see where / what is being done as a group approach, If nothing then your on your own and only have your contract and nz's employment legislation.

In times like this, as you have only been informed of perhaps a reduction of hours and not redundancy you could still get (are not hiding anything) some income protection insurance, it would cover you if your made redundant. Not cheap but it's worth it!
Sorry for such a long speal!

Thanks for all the info mate! I will find my contract and see what it says... I know that for redundancies we get a 13 week payout... Just heard that they plan to implement the pay cuts Sometime around June 1st...:weep:.. Also heard that we need to sign a contarct agreeing to the paycut, which many of you'll have mentioned... Lets see how this goes!

[pzkpfw]

No harm in looking for another job in the meantime, but even in IT this might not be the time to be on the job market.

It just might be better to take the pay cut - and keep the hate of HP on the back burner until things improve.

(This may or may not be what Hitcher meant.)


(I hate HP too - trying to buy a laptop and their freakin' mess of part numbers and lack of website information is driving me nuts. I've complained to their website feedback but no reply, of course.)

[munster]

Firstly your not alone, EDS has some fairly clever people working for them all over the country, I'm sure they won't take this sitting down!!

Trust you! :laugh:

Remember Mark Hurd 'used' to be our big boss too! :no:

And what's this posting during working hours? Tsk tsk tsk! :spanking:

[2_SL0]

This is a position a large number of people are going to be in, if not worse. I am not sure if people in New Zealand really comprehend what is happening around the world.
However large international companies have to protect their profit margin to keep the share holder happy, in hard times it means they make sacrifices any way they can. There is a great deal more to it but I believe that is the basics, many a large company that is still turning a profit will make cuts to maintain their margin.
I imagine when the situation improves these companies may struggle to keep staff as people seek a better opportunity else where with the idea another company would not do that to them.

I agree with Hitcher, I do not believe this is the best time to complain. An example of how far large companies will go to save a doller is the BHP mine closure in Aus. These guys cut their losses in the millions and walk away.
I agree a pay cut is not something they can carry out without your agreement however the next stage they can, do you like your job?

[LardEmbargo]

who me?

I dint do nuffin.

[Drunken Monkey]

There's still plenty of jobs advertised in IT at the moment (I'm looking too), but the general consensus from recruiters is they are looking for very close to exact matches as practical. They also say IT employers are looking for culture fits, as technically minded people can pick up the skills required. The last one sounds like a crock to me.

Depending on your skill set you can make good money in a boutique company, but there's a reason these small IT shops come and go overnight.

Don't know what EDS or HP are like with secondment and similar offerings any more, but you used to at least be able to move around sideways if you couldn't move up. Additionally they have their own career pathways, I think Jim2, Ixion and JRandom have all pointed out previously our paths are somewhat...limited...outside our industry.

You you ask for a 'hands up peeps in IT who are only there until they're financially secure', you see a lot of hands these days. I dunno if it's the stress, how people see us or what, but it's pretty common.

[Scouse]

Just heard that they plan to implement the pay cuts Sometime around June 1st...:weep:.. Also heard that we need to sign a contarct agreeing to the paycut, which many of you'll have mentioned... Lets see how this goes!This should read "Also heard that they want us to sign a new contarct agreeing to the paycut". The ERA law says that your old contract is in force until you sign a new contract. So just refuse to sign the new contract.

[Hitcher]

They also say IT employers are looking for culture fits, as technically minded people can pick up the skills required. The last one sounds like a crock to me.

It's not a crock. For "technical" jobs, such as IT, accountancy, HR, project management, an employer can reasonably assume that any hick has the necessary skills and qualifications. Reference and qualifications' checking is all they need to do in that regard.

Culture fit is a "soft" competency that is, at the end of the day, way more important to an organisation's success than hiring a geek who can speak binary fluently and who is a level 26 Magic User. Alchemy doesn't rock everybody's world.

[popelli]

Whether you like it or not and regardless of what employment law states if a company makes the decision to cut wages it will one way or another

What ever process is used if you fight it they will get rid of you one way or another and replace you with some body happy to work for the reduced package

Best advice is to resist as long as you can without stick your head too far above the paraphet dust off your CV and get another job

If you can't pick up a better job then you have little choice

[geoffm]

This should read "Also heard that they want us to sign a new contarct agreeing to the paycut". The ERA law says that your old contract is in force until you sign a new contract. So just refuse to sign the new contract.

but update the CV first. I had an employer who did this to me years ago and being fresh out of school I went along with it. i have never forgiven them and slander them (with the truth :-) at every opportunity. Sometimes savings have hidden costs, especially in a small market like NZ...
Check the redundancy clauses carefully in the contract, and look up the "constructive dismissal" sections of employment law as well. My ex employer pulled that one on me, and if I wasn't so green at the time, I could have nailed them in the employment court.

[Drunken Monkey]

It's not a crock. For "technical" jobs, such as IT, accountancy, HR, project management, an employer can reasonably assume that any hick has the necessary skills and qualifications. Reference and qualifications' checking is all they need to do in that regard.

No, no it's not that part I don't believe; it's the part where I do match all the advertised criteria and still don't get called for an interview that's confusing me...

[Hitcher]

No, no it's not that part I don't believe; it's the part where I do match all the advertised criteria and still don't get called for an interview that's confusing me...

Ring up and ask why. There's little harm in doing that.