1st genuine post hehe... target fixation [Archive]

A_Mans_Ruin

23rd February 2009, 18:05

PirateJafa

23rd February 2009, 18:17

It's VERY important to learn not to target fixate.

The last dick who fell afoul of target fixation on a ride I was on crashed into me.

Once you've identified a hazard, look at your escape route, not the hazard.

Katman

23rd February 2009, 18:37

Concentrate on gaining experience.

Forget the "low and tight" crap.

Number One

23rd February 2009, 18:53

Every ride is a learning opportunity keep looking where you want to go and just relax...speed is not the be all and end all try to be smooth instead then you'll notice your speed comes up over time naturally and more safely.

Remember too that the road is not a racetrack...eh Katman :msn-wink:

madbikeboy

23rd February 2009, 19:38

Look where you want to go.

Repeat that many times inside your helmet. Also, look up a Mentor in your area (little green ME beside their names), or look up Katman (he posted above me), he's a good experienced rider and he's 40 minutes of nice riding from Vegas. (Plus he's married, and definitely not a sleeze, and a hell of a good guy to boot).

MBB.

Number One

23rd February 2009, 19:42

he's married, and definitely not a sleeze, and a hell of a good guy to boot.

Aww come on - with carry on like that his piss will stop turning to icecubes before it hits the floor :whistle:

Boob Johnson

23rd February 2009, 19:42

Concentrate on gaining experience.

Forget the "low and tight" crap.
Good God Steve, but hardly surprising really. How you can call yourself a mentor is beyond me :oi-grr:

Best advice would be to ignore Katman :msn-wink:

Maki

23rd February 2009, 19:51

Target fixation is a good thing. Negativity is a bad thing. Fixate on the good and the bad ceases to exist.

PirateJafa

23rd February 2009, 19:53

Good point Maki, at least then they'll have lots of free time to kill while waiting for their bones to heal. :niceone:

Maki

23rd February 2009, 19:57

Fixate on the escape route, not the obstacle. For some strange reason the bike always goes where you look. The point is that you should look where you want to go.

PirateJafa

23rd February 2009, 20:05

Oops, you were saying the glass is half full, whilst I was saying it was half empty. Time to knock off the liquor for the night. :doh:

ital916

23rd February 2009, 20:13

Skyryder

24th February 2009, 10:32

Look where you want to go.

Should be every bikers mantra.

Skyryder

Skyryder

24th February 2009, 10:37

Target fixation is a good thing. Negativity is a bad thing. Fixate on the good and the bad ceases to exist.

Nope. Not on the road. No fixation is good. Shit can happen on a good line. Once you have fixated you reduce your options.

Skyryder

MSTRS

24th February 2009, 10:43

group riding can be detrimental to ones learning experience, try riding one on one with a mentor. It will be safer and you will learn more.

Excellent advice!
A mentor will 'teach' you the right way to approach/transition/exit a corner at a speed appropriate for you/current conditions. And how to manage the dreaded Target Fixation.

madbikeboy

24th February 2009, 12:48

Aww come on - with carry on like that his piss will stop turning to icecubes before it hits the floor :whistle:

Well, he can be a cranky old bugger on KiddieBiker, but face to face he's a good guy. His intention is good, and I've said this 1,643 times, he's an important part of this community - I might not like the delivery of his message, but the intent is good.

:)

pritch

24th February 2009, 14:07

I posted this previously so thinking maybe I've maybe used up my current attachment allowance, here's a link:

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=56912&d=1174643096

In English we'd just say, "You go where you look".

I wish I knew how to correct tryping errors in the title... :whistle:

A_Mans_Ruin

24th February 2009, 16:07

Thanks guys, I am thinkin I may go out with a mentor at some point now... as I think a bit of positive criticsm can always help but its all about who and where really..... And Pritch, the pic said it all lol.... Dont target fixate!!!

MSTRS

24th February 2009, 17:49

To the OP. Take your advice from a mentor...http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showpost.php?p=1725141&postcount=1 or at least from someone who has ridden bikes for years. The above 'technique' is bullshit, (barring avoidance of tarmelt) a motorcycle should not be ridden in the centre of the lane/wheeltracks...that is where a lot of splooge lurks...and the term 'apex' simply means that part of the corner where the curve begins to straighten out. Where you sit within the lane determines where that apex is for you as a rider.
Have a read of this, http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3555 and then go practice the green line.

madbikeboy

24th February 2009, 19:57

best of luck
Steve

Respectfully, I understand what DB (Steve) is saying here, but chose to disagree with it. I would strongly urge you to find a mentor, who has been selected through a process here on KB, to give you riding advice. There are a number of very strong mentors in your area, guys like Katman are safe, they have for many years, and completed training. Look for the ME beside the name, or PM the one above this post for details of one close to you.

The learning process never ends, I still do the drills that I've been shown, and I've been lucky enough to ride with some extremely talented people over the years. Find some talented people to ride with.

Dolph

26th February 2009, 19:16

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=56912&d=1174643096

In English we'd just say, "You go where you look".

I wish I knew how to correct tryping errors in the title... :whistle:

Le moto suit toujours le regard du pilote

Exact translation = "The bike follows always the look of the pilot"

Meaning,...the bike always goes where the rider is looking !

Dolph

26th February 2009, 19:17

So,...are there many Mentors in the Far North ?!?! :eek:

MSTRS

27th February 2009, 08:42

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/mentors.php?do=list

pritch

28th February 2009, 15:27

a motorcycle should not be ridden in the centre of the lane/wheeltracks...that is where a lot of splooge lurks...

I hope this isn't typical of what KB mentors are preaching. That's from the overseas books, the authors of which don't ride on our gravel chip roads.
That advice is downright dangerous.

There are many times where to ride between the wheel tracks is to be in the safest place.

fireliv

28th February 2009, 15:31

Good stuff AMR! It something I have to work on too. I know I have improved though cos I dont stuff up many corners line I use to (by focusing on the centre of the corner).

MSTRS

28th February 2009, 15:37

I hope this isn't typical of what KB mentors are preaching. That's from the overseas books, the authors of which don't ride on our gravel chip roads.
That advice is downright dangerous.

There are many times where to ride between the wheel tracks is to be in the safest place.

I never thought you'd stoop to quoting something out of context. The advice that is downright dangerous was in the post I referred to...(I see now that the entire post has been deleted)....that being to always stay in the lane centre. I also said that there are times when it may be appropriate (tarmelt being used as an example). It is all about what path is the safest/grippiest etc at any particular time, and there are those times when the splooge factor is less dangerous than something else.
Mind you, I doubt that any of the KB Mentors have been to mentoring school. I know I haven't. We've all arrived at our lofty position by surviving the School of Realworld Riding for many years, and no doubt we all have slightly differing opinions on what is safest etc. However, I challenge you to provide any evidence that what I said about the lane position is a bum steer.

pritch

28th February 2009, 18:38

Nothing quoted out of context, well not deliberately. I didn't see the disappeared post...

I was annoyed when I saw what I consider dangerous advice. I thought afterward that maybe I should have been more diplomatic, but still I consider the stuff about splooge in the middle of the lane to be lifted from overseas sources and hardly ever relevant on our crappy chip/tar roads.

It is likely that newcomers will give credence to somebody who has ME after their name. In my world that means such people have to be very, very careful about the advice they give.

At least now a newcomer will see that there is another point of view.

Peace

pritch

MSTRS

1st March 2009, 09:59

Hmmmm...maybe the splooge factor is worse on smooth tarmac surfaces, but it can be an issue nevertheless. There are many other reasons for not sitting in this area, reasons which don't actually help this thread. And yes, there are times when it is appropriate to use this area...at least for short distances. The deleted post which I regret not quoting (by Dangerous Bastard) 'knowledgeably' informed us that the best place to sit in the lane was right in the centre, at all times, and to never deviate from this line. That he had practised this, did it all the time now, and the unwritten suggestion was that anything else was inferior. This from a rider who is barely out of his restricted licence (if indeed he is).
And yes, as a mentor, I take care to ensure that advice I give here is sound, and hopefully not open to alternative interpretation.

scumdog

1st March 2009, 10:03

Fixate on the escape route, not the obstacle. For some strange reason the bike always goes where you look. The point is that you should look where you want to go.

True.

Almost every time I've had an 'oh shit' moment it was because I took my eyes off where I was MEANT to go and looked at the approaching road edge.:doh:

smoky

1st March 2009, 10:26

I think lines are important, and the art of setting your self up for a corner - you may want to think about your position on the road entering the corner, when to brake and when to get off the brakes, when to drop into the corner and when to feed on the throttle. It's also about understanding your bike; do you need to ride with rev's or does your bike use torque well in corners, you ride different bikes in different styles. Suspension on your bike will also have a say in how you set yourself up for a corner - different bikes different styles.
I take it you've already been told about counter steering, and about shifting your body weight (no I'm not talking about getting your knee down or anything silly, just shifting your weight).

It's not about speed, it's about smoothness and transiting your weight thru the corner and fluidity in doing so - so you can ride around Paradise Valley Road just flowing from one corner to the next, and getting that neat feeling you can only get on a bike.

MSTRS

1st March 2009, 10:38

Of course lines are important. I addressed that with the referred diagram earlier in the thread. Your ride will not flow if you stay in one place in the lane. Your ability to see well ahead, and be seen by others is hugely important too. Your lane position determines this.

smoky

1st March 2009, 11:15

To the OP. Take your advice from a mentor...http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showpost.php?p=1725141&postcount=1 or at least from someone who has ridden bikes for years.
Everyone knows by now that the KB mentors idea is all shyte - I know guys who have ridden for years and ride like idiots, and I know some who has only ridden for about 5 years who could teach them a thing or two about riding.
Don't let a stupid green ME next to your KB handle go to your head and think you must be a good rider and need to let everyone know about it.

The above 'technique' is bullshit, (barring avoidance of tarmelt) a motorcycle should not be ridden in the centre of the lane/wheeltracks.....
Personally I think that's a load of bullshit

and the term 'apex' simply means that part of the corner where the curve begins to straighten out. Where you sit within the lane determines where that apex is for you as a rider.

And that's even more bullshit - the fact you quoted it from another source doesn't make it correct either..... I hope you ride better than you post on here.
Apex is the geometric inside center point of a corner - it doesn't change according to how you ride

Of course lines are important. I addressed that with the referred diagram earlier in the thread....

I wasn't addressing my post to you ... I was trying to get back on topic for the original thread post

yungatart

1st March 2009, 11:25

I wasn't addressing my post to you ... I was trying to get back on topic for the original thread post

The original post was about target fixation...not lines, but good on ya:shifty:

Victoria

1st March 2009, 11:31

Is there really only one mentor in the Wellington area??

MSTRS

1st March 2009, 11:35

Everyone knows by now that the KB mentors idea is all shyte - I know guys who have ridden for years and ride like idiots, and I know some who has only ridden for about 5 years who could teach them a thing or two about riding.
Don't let a stupid green ME next to your KB handle go to your head and think you must be a good rider and need to let everyone know about it.

Personally I think that's a load of bullshit

And that's even more bullshit - the fact you quoted it from another source doesn't make it correct either..... I hope you ride better than you post on here.
Apex is the geometric inside center point of a corner - it doesn't change according to how you ride

I wasn't addressing my post to you ... I was trying to get back on topic for the original thread post

To be a KB mentor is an honour, a privilege, and a responsibility. It doesn't give us any rights to play god, and nor do we assume any. We do know what we are talking about tho, or we wouldn't say 'stuff' on the subject. I guess there's a reason why you aren't one....

smoky

1st March 2009, 11:47

The original post was about target fixation...not lines, but good on ya:shifty:

from the original post

Am wanting a bit more advice on cornering, I have good riding experience generally and am a reasonably confident rider.... Just nana on corners!

And my post was not all about lines - but about setting your self up for a corner, which I tend to think is the most important part of confident cornering

FROSTY

1st March 2009, 11:48

Apex is the geometric inside center point of a corner - it doesn't change according to how you ride
Smoky--have a look at a picture of a corner . Now pick the apex point.
Now on that corner position a bike at different points sideways on the road and see what they need to do to acheive that apex point.
Dya see my drift?

smoky

1st March 2009, 11:56

To be a KB mentor is an honour, a privilege, and a responsibility. It doesn't give us any rights to play god, and nor do we assume any. We do know what we are talking about tho, or we wouldn't say 'stuff' on the subject. I guess there's a reason why you aren't one....

And in that single post you show yourself to be an arrogant dick, who has too high an opinion of himself
And the audacity to judge someone you have never ridden with nor even met, because they disagree with your unqualified and questionable posts.

And what would the reason be that I am not a mentor??? And why on earth would I want to be???

FROSTY

1st March 2009, 12:01

Hey guys --chill pill time please.
If you two meet face to face youll find you are BOTH nice blokes funnilly enough with the same attitude to riding.

smoky

1st March 2009, 12:07

Smoky--have a look at a picture of a corner . Now pick the apex point.
Now on that corner position a bike at different points sideways on the road and see what they need to do to acheive that apex point.
Dya see my drift?

Yes I do - what your talking about is where you would apex the corner - not where the actual apex of the corner is.
The Apex is a fixed point - you can either early apex or late apex the corner.

We're not talking about racing lines - would you agree that when riding on the road you use different lines than on a track - and when discussing how to corner on the open road we would talk in reference to the actual apex of the corner - not where we would apex the corner. ??

Number One

1st March 2009, 12:15

Sorry guys but I am getting MORE confused due to the back and forward nature of your posts...and I have been riding a while..can't begin imagine how A_Mans_Ruin is finding all this.

AMR honey I would suggest you get yourself a good experienced rider who can take you out and observe you to provide feedback and let you follow them around to learn some of this stuff.

Maybe it's the female in me that struggles with reading maps but the more these guys bicker the harder I'm finding it to even picture what they are talking about, what I should be doing AND how it relates to what I know I do do.

Good luck :sunny:

FROSTY

1st March 2009, 12:19

smoky

1st March 2009, 12:23

AMR honey I would suggest you get yourself a good experienced rider who can take you out and observe you to provide feedback and let you follow them around to learn some of this stuff..

I don't think anyone would learn to ride a bike from KB
And I don't think you should ever expect to learn how to ride from any internet forum

Your right though - arguing on KB about who's right and wrong is a bit of a waste of time
I think if your looking for advice on how to ride find someone you know and trust, I wouldn't think because KB has bestowed someone with a green ME on the end of their name means you can rely on their ability to give correct information

FROSTY

1st March 2009, 12:25

reading the origonal post my suggestion quite frankly would be to RELAX

Number One

1st March 2009, 12:29

I don't think anyone would learn to ride a bike from KB
And I don't think you should ever expect to learn how to ride from any internet forum

Definitely not and this lady in question hasn't left learning how to ride up to reading KB...PHEW :sweatdrop:

You're right though - arguing on KB about who's right and wrong is a bit of a waste of time

Sure is BUT the main thing is that for those that might be actually looking to glean something useful it becomes more confusing than anything else and creates more questions than it does answers.

One thing I didn't mention in my post too AMR is that I the best 'mentors' I have had have been those that weren't concerned about being seen as 'right' but that actually after watching me ride - took the time to ask me what I thought I was doing, why I chose to do certain things and then they were able to pass on useful info in a practical easy to understand un-techy way that I could easily relate to practise...they adapted their message very well so that even I could take it in and use it effectively.

BTW - this post isn't meant to ruffle feathers...I'm not having a go at any of the peeps who were disagreeing with each other on here. Just coming at this from a 'learners' perspective.

smoky

1st March 2009, 12:39

Mate a racing line is something different again. Racing line would have me starting a right hander from the far left then diving across to the far right of the road. Thats kinda like playing russian rulete on the road--eventually an oncoming cars gonna getya.
But if you can imagine 2 riders. both on identical bikes.
One on the right turn sees the apex and goes to the left then makes his turn from that point The other guys stays in the right wheel track.

I don't disagree - your talking about where you should apex a corner and that does depend on where you are on the road
But that's not the same as 'the apex of the corner' which was my small point of difference.

To explain to newer riders about apexes wouldn't we be better talking about the fixed geometric apex of the corner - and reference that to where they should apex the corner? Example;
left handers - I tend to hang out wide toward the center of the road, (depending on vision for oncoming traffic), then once I have the apex of the corner sighted I drop in and late apex on the exit - rather than early apexing the corner and drifting wide on the exit.
Right handers - I stay out wide then late apex, rather than staying in the middle of the lane cornering on the apex or earlier and drifting to the edge of the road and getting messed up with the loose stuff.

They tend to be the two main mistake a lot of new riders make, other than braking.

smoky

1st March 2009, 13:00

.. the main thing is that for those that might be actually looking to glean something useful it becomes more confusing than anything else and creates more questions than it does answers.
........
BTW - this post isn't meant to ruffle feathers...I'm not having a go at any of the peeps who were disagreeing with each other on here. Just coming at this from a 'learners' perspective.

Not just learners - I've been on and off bikes for 30 + years; since joining KB I have read some interesting posts, and as you point out it leaves you with more questions than answers sometimes. But as a result of having questions you end up discussing it with mates who also ride - often as a result of those conversations I improved some aspects of my riding.

Asking questions about things you may never of thought about - if it hadn't been for someone posting on KB.
Bikes have changed, tyres have changed, traffic has changed.
And you're never too old to learn

I have gleamed a fair bit from riding with Terminaladdict - yet he's only been riding a short time compared to me

FROSTY

1st March 2009, 13:04

Yea mate -Take my word on this one its a terminology issue between you n Mstrs same as in this instance.
You are both preaching from the same book just sayin it a different way

Number One

1st March 2009, 13:11

Not just learners - I've been on and off bikes for 30 + years; since joining KB I have read some interesting posts, and as you point out it leaves you with more questions than answers sometimes. But as a result of having questions you end up discussing it with mates who also ride - often as a result of those conversations I improved some aspects of my riding.

You never stop learning I agree. Change is inevitable...growth is optional!

For me though the back and fro arguments often end up completely dismissed from mind as it becomes hard to track all the ins and outs of what the various posters are trying to say. I tend to just carry on doing whatever it is that I do on a bike and trying to relax. RELAX is by far the biggest thing I need to put my mind to doing.

ALSO I am lucky in that I live with my motorcycling mentor and he sees me ride both on the road and on the track. I jump off my bike and generally have him right there to ask questions of and compare notes and ideas with so I think having this is a BIG BONUS....I get to discuss things as they are immediately relevant to my riding.

It helps too that I respect his skills and abilities as a rider plus he is able to pass info on really effectively...even though I'm his wife!!! GO figure :lol: I credit getting my knee down in the wet (without crashing) the first time I rode the RG50 (at the bucket races) to his awesome tutoring...I wasn't even trying..it came as a total shock to have my knee on the deck! I had just listened to what he'd said about not leaning the bike as much as I tend to do and instead to shift my weight allowing for more rubber available to keep me stuck to the track :2thumbsup

You are both preaching from the same book just sayin it a different way

Indeed - that's what makes it hard to fathom any good learnings. Get yourself a mentor whom you can easily learn their version of terminology and lingo and they yours! It will help a lot.

MSTRS

1st March 2009, 13:33

To explain to newer riders about apexes wouldn't we be better talking about the fixed geometric apex of the corner - and reference that to where they should apex the corner? Example;
left handers - I tend to hang out wide toward the center of the road, (depending on vision for oncoming traffic), then once I have the apex of the corner sighted I drop in and late apex on the exit - rather than early apexing the corner and drifting wide on the exit.
Right handers - I stay out wide then late apex, rather than staying in the middle of the lane cornering on the apex or earlier and drifting to the edge of the road and getting messed up with the loose stuff.

That's what I said....
"Judge not, least ye be judged". Hmmmm??

Yea mate -Take my word on this one its a terminology issue between you n Mstrs same as in this instance.
You are both preaching from the same book just sayin it a different wayYep

You never stop learning I agree. Change is inevitable...growth is optional!
When we stop learning, we may as well be dead. And the more one rides, the more one realises that it is impossible to know it all.

Indeed - that's what makes it hard to fathom any good learnings. Get yourself a mentor whom you can easily learn their version of terminology and lingo and they yours! It will help a lot.Talking face to face, before, during and after a 'training' ride is best. If you know and trust someone with plenty of experience, that's great...use them. If you don't know someone like that, then that is where the KB mentor system comes in. Find a mentor in your area and get them to go on that ride etc.
The advice sought and given online can sometimes just be too wordy and 'technical' to make sense.

FROSTY

1st March 2009, 13:46

Thats what I try to do --dumb it right down.
No point in talking moot points between apex n late and counter this n that when the rider doesnt even know how to work the clutch

MSTRS

1st March 2009, 14:16

So it would seem that the best course of action for anyone asking riding advice on here, is to tell them to go find someone ( but not a mentor on here, cos we is all arrogant fuckwits who don't know what we is talking about) to take them out and show them. For gawds sake, don't presume to tell them in words on here?

A_Mans_Ruin

1st March 2009, 14:46

I found that all great to advice to think on thanks :girlfight:, I think????
I have been getting more relaxed going into the corner now, and it helps I am getting to know certains roads nicely....
Had a friend ride behind me and point out the one thing thats bugging me, it was good to hear that feedback too coz it confirmed the issue.
I have also managed to incounter lovely new greasy tarmac shit on one of the corners that I wasnt expecting, on that note I was thinking on escape route not fixation, also remembering not to brake (at least hard!!!). Go figure...... I think using this forum and advice from friends was defenitley eye opening.

So this week slightly more confidence in general :2thumbsup

howdamnhard

1st March 2009, 15:50

Went out with a few KB'ers on a ride this weekend and my main focus was my cornering I have been a nana of the late and have been very gentle with the mighty 250 (pfffft) lol.... So time to try some real riding!!!
I had never really spoken to anyone about target fixation except my sleezy instructor on my Bike skills course. I had previously tended to watch the corners and try and get round them, this weekend I managed to get my bike reasonably low and a bit tighter into the corners holding my focus point at a good distance ahead, wait dead possum oh fark where was I looking again... Anyways just wanted to have my rave and to say that I LEARNDED something :clap: yay.....
Am wanting a bit more advice on cornering, I have good riding experience generally and am a reasonably confident rider.... Just nana on corners!

Lots of riding helps.Slow into corners, fast out when its clear ahead.Look away from where you don't want to go and look at where you want to go.Try stay on the outside as long as possible to give you a good view of the upcoming corner,but not to close to the centreline(oncoming traffic crossing centrelines) or outside road edge(gravel,moss,leaves etc).Be in the right gear,I prefer lower so I can use engine for braking,but it depends on bike type and riding style/personal preferences.Anyway its all probably been said already.Just ride more and take it at a comfortable pace,its not a race but about having fun and enjoying the ride.Aim for smoothness.:done:

dangerous

1st March 2009, 15:57

Am wanting a bit more advice on cornering, I have good riding experience generally and am a reasonably confident rider.... Just nana on corners!

Hi there... you been dodging me for some odd reasn?
Hey was it you I saw on Blenheim Rd Friday I think on ya bike? blue no markings and no lower fairing but he top is on it.

As for the quote above, more than happy to offer any help, I have tought a few that now out ride me... however my style of riding may not suit you as its only my opinion of the beter way.

I would follow you to see how you are then offer advice and have you follow me.
Just an idea.

Darryl D