Rear brake usage? (track)

[Rodney007]

hey guys,
thought Id post here to get the advice I'm looking for,

Over the last couple of trackdays I have been practicing using the the rear brake in my braking and all is going well,

Although ther'es a few things I'd like to clear up. and any advice is most appreciated.

I understand that using the rear brake slows your rear wheel down, thus pulls the engine rpm lower when engine braking, from what I'v noticed my arse end likes to slide around a bit when doing this, but when I'm done my rpms are 2-3k lower from where they should be in my gear causing a compression lock , the only way I'v noticed to regain traction Is bliping down to the lower gear and catching the rpm to regain full traction, or else the arse end shutters and slides trying to find the rpm it should be at.

(hope you understand)

Is this the right way? or am i using to much rear brake?, am I supposed to have the rear brake on enough so it only slightly bothers the engines rpm?

once again thanks, :hug:

[t3mp0r4ry nzr]

cant really understand at what point of the corner you are losing 2-3k rpm, or even why you say that? are you simply scrubbing too much speed off when using both brakes?

[R6_kid]

Feather the clutch, your bike doesn't have a slipper clutch so you have to match the engine revs to the rear wheel for yourself.

[vifferman]

As I understand it, you should be using the rear brake only enough to settle the bike before braking with the front before corners.

[Rodney007]

Feather the clutch, your bike doesn't have a slipper clutch so you have to match the engine revs to the rear wheel for yourself.

yah i heard slipper clutch takes care of alot of things,
so just take it easy on rear brakes to the point where i dont loose revs?

[Rodney007]

cant really understand at what point of the corner you are losing 2-3k rpm, or even why you say that? are you simply scrubbing too much speed off when using both brakes?

not in the corner when im hard braking, heading towards a corner

[Morcs]

But according to Raj, Moto GP riders etc... dont touch their rear brakes! at all!

lols :laugh:

[Biggles08]

But according to Raj, Moto GP riders etc... dont touch their rear brakes! at all!

lols :laugh:
I don't ever use my rear brake?!?! Why bother when the rear is in the air??? :rockon:

[slofox]

I'd say you are using too much rear brake if you are locking it up. Either change down more quickly, watching your revs and matching so that the rear does not lock up or ease off the rear brake a bit or better still, both.
There is no doubt in my mind that using both brakes plus engine braking, is the best stopping power you will get.

[R6_kid]

I don't ever use my rear brake?!?! Why bother when the rear is in the air??? :rockon:

Then you need to start using it. It's not just there to add weight to the rear end.

[R6_kid]

I'd say you are using too much rear brake if you are locking it up. Either change down more quickly, watching your revs and matching so that the rear does not lock up or ease off the rear brake a bit or better still, both.
There is no doubt in my mind that using both brakes plus engine braking, is the best stopping power you will get.

You misunderstand, he's slowing the rear wheel down faster than the engine is braking, that is what is causing it to skid, nothing wrong with that, he just needs to feather the clutch to match the two speeds nicely through the gearbox to keep things in shape.

[Biggles08]

Then you need to start using it. It's not just there to add weight to the rear end.
Good point G.....I will remove it immediately! :buggerd:

[Tony.OK]

Then you need to start using it. It's not just there to add weight to the rear end.

Its more useful when the fronts in the air:2thumbsup

[Sully60]

Is this the right way? or am i using to much rear brake?, am I supposed to have the rear brake on enough so it only slightly bothers the engines rpm?

once again thanks, going to track tomorrow would be good to put some advice to use, :hug:

If you don't need it to slow down or settle the bike then don't distract yourself with it.

I only started using mine when riding Motards (piss poor geometry and suspension for road racing)and not to back in as is the fashion but when I buried those big, long travel forks into the deck and things would get really wayward, using the back brake just gave the feeling of keeping the rear squating and kept the whole ship a lot more stable when it came time to turn in. I don't use it on any of my roadrace bikes.

There's no right or wrong when it comes to how much back brake you use, just remember that you have a lot of things to concentrate on when you are braking into corners and if you're worrying about rear wheel chatter and matching revs etc you're probably not paying enough attention to speed, location and timing.

[Biggles08]

If you don't need it to slow down or settle the bike then don't distract yourself with it.

I only started using mine when riding Motards (piss poor geometry and suspension for road racing)and not to back in as is the fashion but when I buried those big, long travel forks into the deck and things would get really wayward, using the back brake just gave the feeling of keeping the rear squating and kept the whole ship a lot more stable when it came time to turn in. I don't use it on any of my roadrace bikes.

There's no right or wrong when it comes to how much back brake you use, just remember that you have a lot of things to concentrate on when you are braking into corners and if you're worrying about rear wheel chatter and matching revs etc you're probably not paying enough attention to speed, location and timing.

not to mention....it ain't going to slow anything when its floating in the air! :sweatdrop

Seriously tho, this is 100% correct. I'm sure once your motor skills are at such a high standard you can do everything else without thinking about it you may be able to achieve something of use by using the rear brake but to this point I have never touched it for the reason quoted above.

As TonyOK mentioned, it is helpful to ensure rear somersaults are avoided when getting front wheel lift from acceleration but as for assisting stopping...it is very little use I have found.

[AllanB]

Pah, rear brakes.

Rear disk brakes IMO suck arse. I find they have a wooden 'WTF is going on back there?' feel at low speed (even hard to lock up at low speed) but when you require them in a high speed emergency the bastards lock-up the rear wheel.
Now a high speed emergency stop involves heaps of front brake and associated nose dive, thus a light rear end so the rear brake input is magnified.
I still claim you get better feel from a drum on the rear and consequently better control.

[CookMySock]

Isn't the rear brake (or excess power) deliberately used to provoke oversteer to tighten a line? And the clutch deliberately left out (engaged) to prevent the rear from locking up when braking?

Shrug, jest askin.. :dodge:

Steve

[Rodney007]

not to mention....it ain't going to slow anything when its floating in the air! :sweatdrop

Seriously tho, this is 100% correct. I'm sure once your motor skills are at such a high standard you can do everything else without thinking about it you may be able to achieve something of use by using the rear brake but to this point I have never touched it for the reason quoted above.

As TonyOK mentioned, it is helpful to ensure rear somersaults are avoided when getting front wheel lift from acceleration but as for assisting stopping...it is very little use I have found.

thanks for the input guys,

im not going stop using it as last two trackdays have gone well, with couple of shady moments when i had this problem,

i definatley feel it slowing the bike more and im not going to stop using it, yet practice with it and get better,


You misunderstand, he's slowing the rear wheel down faster than the engine is braking, that is what is causing it to skid, nothing wrong with that, he just needs to feather the clutch to match the two speeds nicely through the gearbox to keep things in shape.

cheers for advice gareth .. think il go with that

[Racin Jason]

Isn't the rear brake (or excess power) deliberately used to provoke oversteer to tighten a line? And the clutch deliberately left out (engaged) to prevent the rear from locking up when braking?

Shrug, jest askin.. :dodge:

Steve


Yes the rear brake is used to turn tighter when turning in, and to settle the back wheel over bumps. But leaving the clutch lever out will not stop lock ups, quite the opposite. The clutch needs to be slipped (slipper clutch does this for you) or the back wheel tries to lock and chadders. Listen to motogp, the clutch slips right to the apex.

To be honest I've never used the rear brake on a race track unless ive been off in the grass or something and i cant get hard on the front. The slipper clutch provides more usable rear braking power than any human could ever provide.
I think you would have to be really good (really really good) for the rear brake to make you any real gains.

Although i use rear brake on the road alot. because of the danger of locking the front on loose surfaces etc.

.

[Kevin G]

Hell I remember a little known nobody called Mick Doohan who thought it was so unnecessary he went to all the trouble to make a thumb operated rear brake for his 500cc GP machine when he smashed up his leg/ankle so bad he could not use the foot version....also even today Brembo still make a thumb operated rear brake option.

[k14]

Hell I remember a little known nobody called Mick Doohan who thought it was so unnecessary he went to all the trouble to make a thumb operated rear brake for his 500cc GP machine when he smashed up his leg/ankle so bad he could not use the foot version....also even today Brembo still make a thumb operated rear brake option.
I was reading the other day that Niccolo Canepa (the team mate to Mika Kallio) has had to fit one to his GP9 because his feet are too big to be able to operate the foot brake.

It's horses for courses, for every great racer that swears by back brake you can bring up one who never used it. Foggarty is one who springs to mind, there are countless others who you can probably find if you look hard enough. Its up to the individual, do whatever feels most comfortable for you.

[Sully60]

Hell I remember a little known nobody called Mick Doohan who thought it was so unnecessary he went to all the trouble to make a thumb operated rear brake for his 500cc GP machine when he smashed up his leg/ankle so bad he could not use the foot version....also even today Brembo still make a thumb operated rear brake option.

Doohan didn't really use the rear brake much for slowing down though.

[Maido]

I never use the rear brake on the track

[Biggles08]

Yes the rear brake is used to turn tighter when turning in, and to settle the back wheel over bumps. But leaving the clutch lever out will not stop lock ups, quite the opposite. The clutch needs to be slipped (slipper clutch does this for you) or the back wheel tries to lock and chadders. Listen to motogp, the clutch slips right to the apex.

To be honest I've never used the rear brake on a race track unless ive been off in the grass or something and i cant get hard on the front. The slipper clutch provides more usable rear braking power than any human could ever provide.
I think you would have to be really good (really really good) for the rear brake to make you any real gains.

Although i use rear brake on the road alot. because of the danger of locking the front on loose surfaces etc.

.

Could not have said it better!:niceone:

[CookMySock]

Awesome detail. Thanks fellas. Yeah it makes sense to use both in slippery or loose road conditions.

Steve

[kittytamer]

But according to Raj, Moto GP riders etc... dont touch their rear brakes! at all!

lols :laugh:

Moto GP rider DO use rear brake. In fact Nicky Hayden has an extra large rear disc because he uses so much. He is the exception rather than the rule though.
I used to use the rear brake on track, but as I get quicker and brake harder no longer use it at all (rear tyre in the air - a la Biggles - and my R6 has a slipper clutch which sorts the rear out for corner entry). On the road, however, I use it all the time.

[vifferman]

Nicky Hayden has an extra large rear disc because he uses so much.
Nicky Hayden started off in flat-track racing, so he is used to sliding the rear tyre, and 'backing it in'. He's also an expert Supermotard rider.

[Biggles08]

so he is used to sliding the rear tyre, and 'backing it in'.


With a slipper clutch though you need no rear brake as it semi locks up if you change down hard and late enough as your braking hard on the front and tipping into the corner....so ends up 'backing it in' without rear brakes.:headbang:

[kittytamer]

Nicky Hayden started off in flat-track racing, so he is used to sliding the rear tyre, and 'backing it in'. He's also an expert Supermotard rider.

Yes. Yes he is...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zpHC8HQyKgE

[Tony.OK]

Rear brake can come in handy when exiting a turn too, it can help control wheel spin rather than letting off the gas to do it.................;)

[Sully60]

Rear brake can come in handy when exiting a turn too, it can help control wheel spin rather than letting off the gas to do it.................;)

^^^^^Traction control! Isn't that illegal in production superbike?:laugh:

Although I didn't use the rear brake on 150s for slowing down I did use it in the rain just as I cracked the trottle from the apex. They don't have much, well any power really but when leaned over in the rain the abrupt response from closed throttle was enough to break traction. Dragging a bit of rear brake just before picking up the throttle took the sting out of it and meant I was confident getting on the gas sooner.

Different strokes for different folks eh? Nicky's back discs are huge and he really gets the bike turned in a long way on the brakes. Bruce Anstey on the other hand used aluminium rear discs on back in the 250GP times, only enough to stop the wheel at scrutineering time.

[Biggles08]

Bruce Anstey on the other hand used aluminimun rear discs on back in the 250GP times, only enough to stop the wheel at scrutineering time.

Thats an interesting idea! is it legal?

[Sully60]

Thats an interesting idea! is it legal?

As long as it stops the wheel when or if scrutineered.

Another idea is to swiss cheese it, I was trying to find apic of the old Vance & Hines FZR superbikes they holesawed basically the whole working surfaces of the disc bar what was needed to keep it together.

[Tim 39]

Thats an interesting idea! is it legal?

Yes it's legal, quite common on 125GP bikes over here too.

if anyone wants my opinion on the back brake... it's a great thing, use it plenty (if you have the back wheel in the air when you're on the brakes I'd be suprised)

[piston broke]

in good conditions i use the rear brake to stop the rear from free wheeling during a 'clutch in' change down.
in the wet near always used for stability.
i'm as amateur as you get tho.

[Rodney007]

went really well! gettin faster and faster, well slower faster!

i tried it in the corners you can feel it pull you in ,but at this stage i dont feel that its necessery but for braking its definatly kick ass so far, couple of close calls but meh :D