Does leaning increase the limit of cornering speed?

[Rodney007]

Hi guys, seem to be caught up in a little arguement, with a guy prolly in mid 40's that claims i am a "little shitbag" because i stated that:

leaning off your bike through a corner will allow the bike to go around the corner at less of a angle AT THE SAME SPEED, and allows your body to act as a ballast, increasing the contact path of your tyre (and all the other technical stuff) thus allowing you to go around the corner FASTER than if you simply stayed central on the bike.

i dont mean it boosts your speed, i mean does it increases the corning ability of rider/bike.

if anyone can simply say they agree or disagree it would be MUCHLY appreciated as this guys going off the hook at me. and il point him here to have a read THANKS!

[MisterD]

Hi guys, seem to be caught up in a little arguement, with a guy prolly in mid 40's that claims i am a "little shitbag" because i stated that:

leaning off your bike through a corner will allow the bike to go around the corner at less of a angle, and allows your body to act as a ballast, increasing the contact path of your tyre (and all the other technical stuff) thus allowing you to go around the corner FASTER than if you simply stayed central on the bike.


if anyone can simply say the agree or disagree it would be MUCHLY appreciated as this guys going off the hook at me. and il point him here to have a read THANKS!

Yes, it's physics and I have a degree in that stuff, and I'm 38. :done:

[TimeOut]

Agree:niceone:

[Badger8]

Yup, simple physics mate! And if you dont believe it, give it a try! :yes:
The more weight you shift to the inside of the corner (and the higher up the weight the bigger the difference), the more upright the bike will be whilst cornering at the same speed. This is good as your suspension will be more in line to absorb any bumps in the road etc as you corner, and you've got more grip if it's damp etc. Could go on about the benefits.
The added effect is, if you are moving your weight off, you now have the ability to go faster round this same corner as you have more lean available.

e.g. you could go around a corner upright on the bike peg down (NOT recommended!), or hanging some weight off the bike, bike more upright, at the same speed.
The flipside being you have more lean available, so now if you go to 'peg-down-lean' and hanging off, you are going a lot faster around the given corner. Watch a racer giving it stick on the track and see it in action :)

[MisterD]

...and the tin-lid on the argument: watch the GP riders, they do it and they wouldn't if it didn't work...

[Rodney007]

cheers keep it flowin!

[reofix]

just one little problem .... on the road we are never approaching the limits of cornering so hanging out on the low side is just posing... hang out on the high side and you find you can see twice as far ahead... safe stopping distance is preserved... you get to live longer

[Rodney007]

just one little problem .... on the road we are never approaching the limits of cornering so hanging out on the low side is just posing... hang out on the high side and you find you can see twice as far ahead... safe stopping distance is preserved... you get to live longer

yah your very right,
im more so refering to riding on the track, but the basic rule of leans apply's either way,

[erik]

... increasing the contact path of your tyre (and all the other technical stuff

The other stuff was accurate, but I don't know about it increasing the tyre's contact patch, that'd depend on the profile of the tyre.


...The more weight you shift to the inside of the corner (and the higher up the weight the bigger the difference), the more upright the bike will be whilst cornering at the same speed.

Actually, the lower the weight, the more effect it would have. For the same mass, if you moved it 200mm to the side of the bike's centreline, the angle between the mass and the bike's centreline (centred on the tyre's contact patch) would increase as you move the weight lower.

But yeah, if you're running out of cornering clearance (ie pegs etc are scraping), hanging off the bike (actually, I'd say it feels more like holding the bike more upright than hanging off it) will give you more cornering clearance and you can then go a little faster.

[Mikkel]

If you leave the contact patch stuff out I would have to agree.

In order to achieve the highest possible cornering speed you'd have to hang off your bike (provided your tyres are sticky enough of course) - otherwise you'll be touching down footpegs, rocker covers, fairings, handlebars and wing mirrors before you get the maximum rate of turn.

[Badger8]

Actually, the lower the weight, the more effect it would have. For the same mass, if you moved it 200mm to the side of the bike's centreline, the angle between the mass and the bike's centreline (centred on the tyre's contact patch) would increase as you move the weight lower.

But yeah, if you're running out of cornering clearance (ie pegs etc are scraping), hanging off the bike (actually, I'd say it feels more like holding the bike more upright than hanging off it) will give you more cornering clearance and you can then go a little faster.

Dont forget we're talkin about when the bike is already tipped over a reasonable bit, so higher up weight is already inside the centre of mass ;)
I find for myself that moving my butt and keeping my torso over the tank has bugger all effect, but leaving my butt central and moving my shoulders out makes a huge difference :yes:

Certainly does feel like holding the bike more upright. I find when i transition my weight it feels almost like i'm pushing the bike under me rather than me moving over the bike. That may have something to do with the ratio of my weight to the bikes weight tho... :shifty:

[Rodney007]

If you leave the contact patch stuff out I would have to agree.

In order to achieve the highest possible cornering speed you'd have to hang off your bike (provided your tyres are sticky enough of course) - otherwise you'll be touching down footpegs, rocker covers, fairings, handlebars and wing mirrors before you get the maximum rate of turn.

fair enough , i thought putting weight over where the tyre is making contact with the surface would possibly spread it a bit,

thats error on my part.

[Badger8]

fair enough , i thought putting weight over where the tyre is making contact with the surface would possibly spread it a bit,

thats error on my part.

Depends on your tyre profile mate, so may or may not be true dependant on the specifics :)

[Mikkel]

fair enough , i thought putting weight over where the tyre is making contact with the surface would possibly spread it a bit,

thats error on my part.

Leaning may change the shape of the contact patch. Not the size.

The faster you're going around the corner the more force the bike applies to the road and consequently the size of the contact patch increases - but it is not due to the lean.

I must say most comments that I have seen about the contact patch have been utter bollocks and I'd personally recommend forgetting everything about that term. It is purely academic. Tyre compound, profile and pressure are the only things I would concern myself with. The priority would be: pressure, compound and then profile IMO.

[Skyryder]

Essentially you are correct. I think ballast is wrong. Basically by leaning 'off' your bike you are lowering your centre of gravity (mass) further than if you did not lean and just stayed in the same line/angle as the bike. Not too sure of the physics involved on this. Try googling this.

Skyryder

[BMWST?]

you are right but in the end it is tyre grip which is the ultimate factor...

[Rodney007]

Leaning may change the shape of the contact patch. Not the size.


o i c , :Oops:

[jtzzr]

If you leave the contact patch stuff out I would have to agree.

In order to achieve the highest possible cornering speed you'd have to hang off your bike (provided your tyres are sticky enough of course) - otherwise you'll be touching down footpegs, rocker covers, fairings, handlebars and wing mirrors before you get the maximum rate of turn.

I`m listening to ya brother, just bent the hero-knob and damaged the fairing on the northbound off ramp at East tamaki.

[Mikkel]

Essentially you are correct. I think ballast is wrong. Basically by leaning 'off' your bike you are lowering your centre of gravity (mass) further than if you did not lean and just stayed in the same line/angle as the bike. Not too sure of the physics involved on this. Try googling this.

Valid point. However, on a bike a higher center of mass will actually allow you to corner faster... :yes:
A lower center of mass is a benefit during acceleration and braking.

[White trash]

The silly old prick's right of course. That's why you see all the MotoGP racers sitting bolt upright on their bikes while cornering.

Oh wait.........

You don't need to post an elaborate thread to prove it to him, turn on a bike racing show on TV. Argument solved.

[Chooky]

Yer leaning is best....:cool:

[BMWST?]

36666
no need to post an elaborate thread to prove it to him, turn on a bike racing show on TV. Argument solved.

about half past one tomorrow on sky sport 3

[McJim]

On a kind of parallel point. If riders get their knee down on the open road it reduces the options they have when they meet:

a/ Large patch of cow shit left by a stock truck
b/ Arsewipe on a souped up jappa car with no springs on the wrong side of the road
c/ Jack-knifed boatie with a trailer load of boat.
d/ Peleton of cyclists
e/ Cow/Horse/Sheep or large farm animal of your choice that got loose coz farmer giles simply doesn't give a shit.

.....around a blind corner.

[discotex]

On a kind of parallel point. If riders get their knee down on the open road it reduces the options they have when they meet:


One could of course argue that if you're hanging off (but not knee down) you have more options than the person sitting bolt upright but at the edge of the tyre.

[Mikkel]

One could of course argue that if you're hanging off (but not knee down) you have more options than the person sitting bolt upright but at the edge of the tyre.

Only if you are of the opinion that there is only one way to turn... If you're hanging off to your left you'll be harder pressed to change your line towards your right and vice versa.

On the other hand, if you're sitting upright you can always slide off to the side to turn sharper.

[discotex]

Only if you are of the opinion that there is only one way to turn... If you're hanging off to your left you'll be harder pressed to change your line towards your right and vice versa.

I'm of the opinion you turn which ever way has clear road but there's a few things to keep in mind.

Firstly even if you need to widen your turn, chances are that you will immediately need to tighten your line more than it already was or you'll run off or into the on-coming lane.

Second, countersteering works just as well when you're hanging off.

Third, if you manage to prove that wrong with physics I'll resort to pointing out that one could always pull themselves up to the centreline with the outside knee as you do in a chicane.



On the other hand, if you're sitting upright you can always slide off to the side to turn sharper.

If you're at the absolute limit of traction the last thing you want to be doing is unsettling the bike by climbing around on it.

Ultimately it's horses for courses as with both approaches you should be leaving a margin for error.

[MSTRS]

If you're at the absolute limit of traction the last thing you want to be doing is unsettling the bike by climbing around on it.



True. But bear in mind that most of us couldn't tell when the bike is on the limits for traction UNTIL it lets go. Also, that limit is constantly changing on the road, due to varying surface.
It's not clever to risk that on the road...take it to the track.

[discotex]

take it to the track.

I do exactly that and my road riding is much safer as a result :niceone:

Not because I can ride faster but because I have a better idea of my safety margin.

[Swoop]

In order to achieve the highest possible cornering speed you'd have to hang off your bike
I'm sure there is some comment about "crusier riders" that should be made here...

[FROSTY]

Actually I can see clearly what the "old guy" is getting at.
On the road you shouldn't be anywhere near your bikes limit for cornering clearance. tyre grip etc.
By staying with the bike and staying smooth you are putting less stress on tyres,suspension and chassis. As such you will corner better by staying with the bike.
Yes all the stuff you say in the perfect world where you are searching for the last .001% of drive then hanging off does make a difference.
On the real road in nZ Nope pure wank value

That said hey I happen to like sliding from side to side on my bike. I enjoy it --and given I currently ride for the fun of it then fugggit Ill carry on doin it

[smoky]

just one little problem .... on the road we are never approaching the limits of cornering so ...... hang out on the high side and you find you can see twice as far ahead...

There's always one in a crowd
Why would you think you would never reach the limits of cornering on the road?

It would be hard to enjoy a ride around the Coro hanging off the high side of the bike

[AllanB]

On a kind of parallel point. If riders get their knee down on the open road it reduces the options they have when they meet:

a/ Large patch of cow shit left by a stock truck
b/ Arsewipe on a souped up jappa car with no springs on the wrong side of the road
c/ Jack-knifed boatie with a trailer load of boat.
d/ Peleton of cyclists
e/ Cow/Horse/Sheep or large farm animal of your choice that got loose coz farmer giles simply doesn't give a shit.

.....around a blind corner.



Darn good point here. Last weekend I encountered 'b' (but it was ma/pa) on my side of the road passing 'd'. It did not help that I was going rather rapidly around the blind corner.......... end result was all good but I suspect there was a dozen cyclists & 2-3 car occupants requiring a change of undies. I myself am still chiselling the dags off :sick:

[xwhatsit]

Actually I can see clearly what the "old guy" is getting at.
On the road you shouldn't be anywhere near your bikes limit for cornering clearance. tyre grip etc.
By staying with the bike and staying smooth you are putting less stress on tyres,suspension and chassis. As such you will corner better by staying with the bike.
Yes all the stuff you say in the perfect world where you are searching for the last .001% of drive then hanging off does make a difference.
On the real road in nZ Nope pure wank value
I reckon that's part of the reason why people don't hang off on older bikes; the rear tyre is already chattering around and skipping and the front forks are flexing and twisting. If you then start to climb off the thing (can't doing it smoothly without unsettling things unless you're a pro -- you might think you're pretty smooth on your ZXY600 but it'll show up on a less forgiving older bike) and chuck your weight around it's hardly going to improve the situation. Far better off to stay as one with the bike and be as smooth as possible. If you touch a peg or silencer then so be it. That's what folding pegs, hero blobs and toe sliders are for.

I tried it for shits and giggles on a TRX850 (hardly `pushing the limits' of what it could corner at though) and it felt much more natural than, say, an SR500 or CB750. Or 250RS for that matter.

And yes we all know what Eddie Lawson et al used to get up to in their early days but they were full-on reinforced swingarm jobs with braced forks and gusseted frames on nice smooth racetracks.

[Maki]

Hi guys, seem to be caught up in a little arguement, with a guy prolly in mid 40's that claims i am a "little shitbag" because i stated that:

leaning off your bike through a corner will allow the bike to go around the corner at less of a angle AT THE SAME SPEED, and allows your body to act as a ballast, increasing the contact path of your tyre (and all the other technical stuff) thus allowing you to go around the corner FASTER than if you simply stayed central on the bike.

i dont mean it boosts your speed, i mean does it increases the corning ability of rider/bike.

if anyone can simply say they agree or disagree it would be MUCHLY appreciated as this guys going off the hook at me. and il point him here to have a read THANKS!

If you hang off you can take a corner at a given speed with the bike leaning less than if you sat bolt upright and less still than if you hang off on the high side of the bike.... Hanging off on the high side is madness, unless you want to scrape your pegs, or fairings on purpose.

This is good:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wYD9SSBBNQ&feature=related

Show this to the old geezer and see if he can see some sense.

[howdamnhard]

In a nutshell , yes!

[Mikkel]

Ultimately it's horses for courses as with both approaches you should be leaving a margin for error.

Indeed, and this is of course the most important thing.

I refrain from hanging off most of the time simply because it provokes a more aggressive mindset and so is likely to introduce higher risks in my riding.

I still think it's a good thing to have a feel for what hanging off really does though. It is not that hard to think of a couple of situations where the difference in rate of turn between the optimum and the casual can save your arse.

All the other points you make are good and valid.


I'm sure there is some comment about "crusier riders" that should be made here...

We're talking about cornering speed, those two terms doesn't go into the same sentence do they... :no:

[Rodney007]

well i personaly can feel the bike wanting to lowside if leaning at a big angle if staying in the middle of the bike.

few others agreed with me over dinner, (non-squids)

[FROSTY]

Hey rodney re last post -has the bike actually lowsided??
Im thinking of case in point of a Kb a few years back.
We did a training day on the track with a pretty famous racer once.
The KB er Looked bloody cool all hung out the side of his bike.
Then this race guy on a very similar bike went past at about twice the speed barely hangin off.
The kber and the racer had a chat -the upkeep was --dya wannna LOOK like ya going fast or actually BE going fast..---Ya see ma point??

[piston broke]

i'm wondering about this point too.
i guess i will find out a bit more when i have my first go on a track at mt welli later this month.
when i look at it,when the pegs hit the deck you are cornering as fast and tight as possible,whether you are hangin off or not.
i really look forward to hearing why hanging off is better(faster)
ta muchly.

[xwhatsit]

well i personaly can feel the bike wanting to lowside if leaning at a big angle if staying in the middle of the bike.

few others agreed with me over dinner, (non-squids)
What've you got? If there's decent modern rubber on there and the suspension isn't falling to pieces, any modern bike will be scraping things well before it'll lowside, provided the surface is in good nick and you're not manhandling it like a twat.

[Motu]

you might think you're pretty smooth on your ZXY600 but it'll show up on a less forgiving older bike)

I think modern bikes are less forgiving than older bikes - an older bike will give much more warning near the limit.The number of crashes on rough back roads with modern bikes should be a good indicator......

Or perhaps the rider is to blame??...??

No,not likely......

[xwhatsit]

I think modern bikes are less forgiving than older bikes - an older bike will give much more warning near the limit.The number of crashes on rough back roads with modern bikes should be a good indicator......

Or perhaps the rider is to blame??...??

No,not likely......
I get what you're saying, when you get near the limit it'll start squirming around and winding up like a spring and the bars will be moving of their own accord and you'll intermittently scrape things as the suspension compresses over bumps. Nevertheless you'll still get through the corner just fine but you're too unnerved to want to push much harder! At least I am :D Plus, you can't sneeze and accidentally wind on 100hp of throttle by accident.

A modern bike just has the stability and rail-road track sort of behaviour that lets you move around and climb off without the frame going into spasms, that's all.

[Rodney007]

Hey rodney re last post -has the bike actually lowsided??
Im thinking of case in point of a Kb a few years back.
We did a training day on the track with a pretty famous racer once.
The KB er Looked bloody cool all hung out the side of his bike.
Then this race guy on a very similar bike went past at about twice the speed barely hangin off.
The kber and the racer had a chat -the upkeep was --dya wannna LOOK like ya going fast or actually BE going fast..---Ya see ma point??


I muchly agree, the "old guy" that I was arguing with was a cruiser rider,
but seemed to think that leaning off your bike doesnt effect your cornering ability,

im not talking about training days, road riding, or watever, im talking hit a corner at 150kms cranked over so your using everylast mm of tyre, then do it again staying central,

I personaly think that you would low side, I have made the mistake of not hanging off enough at these kind of speeds and have come very close to coming off,

the topic started referencing a road rider on a video, his friend behind was filming some guy tip into a corner and was completely central on the bike, the bike just fell over, he blamed it on cold tyres and all sorts, my comment was "he wasnt hanging off the bike at all/noob" and the old guy said "leaning off the bike doesnt help anything" then I said "well its science and physics and has been proved before, whydont we tell GP riders to stay central on the bike" , then he said "look you little shitbag youthink you know everything I have been riding for 35 years why dont you take a more experienced riders advice"
then I said "35 years of riding without ever having the need to hang-off your cruiser doesnt mean anything, and why you trying to argue against physics"

then I pointed him here sevral days ago and havnt heard from him since!, to much pride

[Max Preload]

...you think you know everything I have been riding for 35 years why dont you take a more experienced rider's advice...

There's no fool like an old fool... :bleh:

[warewolf]

It's pretty well established that hanging off increases your cornering speed. Keith Code devotes a whole chapter in his seminal book "A Twist of the Wrist" to the subject: "Hanging Off: It Looks Good and It Works." He goes on to explain six advantages.


the topic started referencing a road rider on a video, his friend behind was filming some guy tip into a corner and was completely central on the bike, the bike just fell over, he blamed it on cold tyres and all sorts, my comment was "he wasnt hanging off the bike at all/noob" and the old guy said "leaning off the bike doesnt help anything" You may not be on the same page. Leaning off may not have avoided that crash, but it does help you to ride faster.


I have been riding for 35 years why dont you take a more experienced riders adviceDoes he have 35 years experience, or 1 years experience 35 times over??

[Rodney007]

well it was referenced to the video clip, a guy was going in hot to a corner, and it just fell,

and yes may not have avoided the crash,

[The Stranger]

Hi guys, seem to be caught up in a little arguement, with a guy prolly in mid 40's that claims i am a "little shitbag"

He's right.





















You are a little shitbag.

[Rodney007]

He's right.

You are a little shitbag.


:spanking: :shifty: :Punk: :2guns: