HELP. My insurance company are thieves.

[kave]

Last wednesday a young girl swerved in front of my bike. There was a minor crash (plenty of damage to the vehicles but no injuries), she was charged with failure to give way and I was left with a stuffed bike.

Today I had a call from my insurance company saying that the bike was being written off and that its value was far less than I expected. My bike was insured for market value, and every similar bike on trademe is being sold for more than a third more money than they are offering me.

I told my insurance company (no names until the process is complete) that they are taking the piss, and they have suggested that I seek out valuations privately, and we will try to come to some arrangement. I have recent photos of the bike (less than four weeks old) showing it in excellent condition. I am able to take wednesday off work to get valuations (and to go into the insurance company to sort things out face-to-face), but I am unsure as to the best places to go.

Is there anyone on Kiwibiker that is capable of doing valuations, preferably near to Auckland?

Thanking you all in advance.

:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

[Cajun]

best bet, go to a couple of dealers, suzuki ones might be best bet, and ask them what your bike with milage and mods would be worth.

Do a serach on bikepoint.co.nz and trademe for same model of your bike, and print these off to dhow insurance company to go with quotes from a couple of bike dealers.

[JMemonic]

I have had a similar issue with an insurance company who did not actually understand bikes but did them as a car, then when the time for repair came they sent around an assessor who determined the bike was a write off and got valuations on the bike, sight unseen by 2 shops locally, the cheapest of these valuations was taken to be the value of the bike.

I found out who one of the valuations came from and went and asked them for the cheap bikes explained the situation and they advised me the insurance company wanted the wholesale value or possible trade value of x bike of x year and in less than average condition, apparently their version of less than average meant it was off the road unregistered etc and only had scrap metal values.

Get independent assessment if you can, print of as many trademe and bikepoint ads you can proving that there is no way that wholesale value equates to real world values and ask about the insurance companies complaints process, keep trying people there going up the food chain as is necessary, you might be surprised what you can achieve.

[Max Preload]

Name and shame.

[kave]

Name and shame.

Only if I don't get a satisfactory outcome.

[Max Preload]

Only if I don't get a satisfactory outcome.

Why not now? The fact they're even trying this shit on should be made public.

Oh well, doesn't affect me. I have nothing to do with the crooks.

[Daffyd]

And don't forget to hit them up for the lost income while obtaining said valuations.

[MSTRS]

Was the girl with the same company? It seems to me that since it wasn't your fault, then it's not your policy paying for your bike, written off or otherwise.
Was the girl uninsured? In which case, your policy covers upfront, but ins co goes her for whatever it cost them.

[kave]

The girl was with the same insurance company as mine, and was fully insured.

[Oscar]

Last wednesday a young girl swerved in front of my bike. There was a minor crash (plenty of damage to the vehicles but no injuries), she was charged with failure to give way and I was left with a stuffed bike.

Today I had a call from my insurance company saying that the bike was being written off and that its value was far less than I expected. My bike was insured for market value, and every similar bike on trademe is being sold for more than a third more money than they are offering me.

I told my insurance company (no names until the process is complete) that they are taking the piss, and they have suggested that I seek out valuations privately, and we will try to come to some arrangement. I have recent photos of the bike (less than four weeks old) showing it in excellent condition. I am able to take wednesday off work to get valuations (and to go into the insurance company to sort things out face-to-face), but I am unsure as to the best places to go.

Is there anyone on Kiwibiker that is capable of doing valuations, preferably near to Auckland?

Thanking you all in advance.

:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

I had one of these when I was a broker.
I got the insurer to agree that they had to "repair or reinstate", let them fester for a while and asked them to to produce the vehicle (in this case a car) that their assessor had said "...there were heaps of at that price."

They couldn't, and paid more.

[MSTRS]

The girl was with the same insurance company as mine, and was fully insured.

That can complicate things. Be glad that (dual?) Full-cover applies, not 3rd Party...:(
That business about 'wholesale bikeshop purchase' is an absolute crock. Market value is not the lowest figure, anyway...we'd all be fucked if MrSmith sold his FLDGSXCBR1WRX for $1.00. You just need to find 3 recent sales of your model, and (assuming condition is similar) use the average price of those 3 to determine a market value.

[tigertim20]

Hey buddy, that sucks about your bike! here what I did last year in almost EXACTLY the same situation.
Insurance company said its worth this much (about half what I thought) So I went to the bike shop in Dunedin (Honda Otago) and the guy there was happy to go and do a valuation and put it in writing, which I took back to the insurance company, and things went very quickly from there, I was given a cheque within an hour and walked away happy.

How it works is that POST accident, you have to have some-one go and do an official valuation of what they think the bike WOULD have been worth before the accident. I would suggest, if possible, that you go to whoever did the maintenance etc on your bike (someone who KNOWS your bike), and ask them to go do an official valuation for you, and explain your predicament. Honda Otago went and did it for me for free, (bloody good of them!)

Unfortunately taking in Copies of Trade Me auctions dont count for anything with them, I tried the same thing before resorting to going and getting other valuations.

Best of luck buddy!!!

[thehollowmen]

I'd go bike shopping around town, get some valuations on similar bikes and post them off. Insist on the support of a dealer, private sales are out of the question.

If they take no notice, at least you'll have fun test riding everything.

Be careful about asking them to produce a bike, they may produce a lemon and call it your replacement.

Wishing you luck
Colin

[discotex]

This is standard insurance industry practice. They bid low and hope the punter knows nothing about the value of their bike.

When my old ZXR250 was written off I was told it was valued at some stupid low number like $5k.

I laughed because I'd paid $6k 8 months before and it was mint. Given how rare they are I knew it had held it's value. So after some discussion they agreed to get more quotes. I suggested they ask Red Baron where it was purchased from and serviced only a month before the accident. They came back with a market value over $6k and someone else a bit under.

AMI averaged the quotes and paid me out just under $6k which I was happy with. But then in the end the other guy's insurance company paid out the highest quote which AMI promptly passed on to me.

In the end I made a profit on the bike :)

So just stick to your guns. They'll probably roll over once you appear to know what you're talking about.

[Grahameeboy]

This is standard insurance industry practice. They bid low and hope the punter knows nothing about the value of their bike.

When my old ZXR250 was written off I was told it was valued at some stupid low number like $5k.

I laughed because I'd paid $6k 8 months before and it was mint. Given how rare they are I knew it had held it's value. So after some discussion they agreed to get more quotes. I suggested they ask Red Baron where it was purchased from and serviced only a month before the accident. They came back with a market value over $6k and someone else a bit under.

AMI averaged the quotes and paid me out just under $6k which I was happy with. But then in the end the other guy's insurance company paid out the highest quote which AMI promptly passed on to me.

In the end I made a profit on the bike :)

So just stick to your guns. They'll probably roll over once you appear to know what you're talking about.

It is not often the Insurer's fault as they rely on assessor's who are not always right when it comes to bikes.

[Grahameeboy]

The girl was with the same insurance company as mine, and was fully insured.

I have 30 years claims experience so if you would like me to help, draft a letter etc pm me...

Face to face...difficult one because they may turn things around and get you to agree to sonmething that is not right...do research first...claim loss of use which is a valid claim but Insurer's say it is not.

[discotex]

It is not often the Insurer's fault as they rely on assessor's who are not always right when it comes to bikes.

Yeah I suppose that's a fair point.

[captain_andrey]

I've had nothing but good experience with my insurance co. I wrote off a 2 month old bike and they bought me a brand new one, no questions. Currently in the process of making another claim for a minor accident and everything seems to be going smoothly.

[kave]

This is the letter I am considering sending through to my insurance company.


Philip and Juliet McGarry
</blank>*
Panmure
Auckland 1060

Policy: ***
Claim: ***


March 3, 2009


Chief Executive Officer/Managing Director
</blank>*
</blank>*
</blank>*
Manukau 2014


Dear Sir


I am writing to inform you of my dissatisfaction in regards to my dealings with </blank>*. I am a customer of yours, and have a motorcycle policy. On Tuesday the twenty-fourth of February a Miss Monique Gray (another of your customers) turned her car in front of my motorcycle, the subsequent crash damaging my motorcycle and her car. The police attended and Mrs Gray was charged with failure to give way. A tow truck was organised to take my motorbike to Red Baron Motorcycles in Auckland for assessment and hopefully repairs. On Saturday I received a letter requesting that I fill out a total loss statement, which I did and faxed back on Monday morning. Up to this point I was relatively happy with </blank>*, everything seemed to be moving at a relatively reasonable pace, and correspondence was fast and professional.

On Monday the Second of March I received a call from the </blank>* Howick branch informing me that their valuation substantially differed from my expectations. It was suggested that I seek out my own valuation, and that they would also get a secondary valuation done. I was concerned at this point, but I did not hold </blank>* responsible as I assume that external assessors are contracted?

The following day I attempted to follow the suggestion made to me by </blank>* staff to get a valuation done privately, unfortunately the bike was no longer at Red Baron Motorcycles. It turns out that someone apparently acting on behalf of </blank>* had turned up in a truck and taken my bike from where I had left it. As far as I (and the law) am concerned this constitutes theft. Not only has the bike been moved from the mechanics where I had left it, it was done without my permission, and without even informing me. Not only that, even when an </blank>* representative suggested that I seek out a private valuation they did not feel it necessary to inform me that my bike had been taken.

This left me unable to get a private valuation done. I sought advertisements of similar bikes from both dealers and private sellers, and all of which were substantially higher than what </blank>* had offered me (and far closer to my estimated market value than that provided by </blank>*), but I was told that the prices that similar bikes are selling at is irrelevant (which surprises me given that my policy states that the motorcycle is insured for market value).

At the moment I would be willing to either split the difference and accept $5,500 or accept A.M.I sourcing me a replacement motorcycle (a Suzuki GSXR1100 M or N model in a condition that we agree was similar to my bikes condition pre accident). If you find neither of these two options acceptable can you please provide me with a letter of deadlock.


Thanking you in advance,



Philip McGarry

[Max Preload]

I think once you lodge a claim and the decision is made by the insurance company that it is a total loss, the bike become their property and the only issue remaining is one of agreeable settlement. Therefore they were within their rights to remove it without notifying you, but they should have told you out of courtesy when you spoke to them about gettting a private valuation..

[captain_andrey]

I think once you lodge a claim and the decision is made by the insurance company that it is a total loss, the bike become their property and the only issue remaining is one of agreeable settlement. Therefore they were within their rights to remove it without notifying you, but they should have told you out of courtesy when you spoke to them about gettting a private valuation..

Nope, you have to sign a piece of paper releasing the bike to them.

[kave]

I can understand them removing the bike if it had been written off, but it is not written off yet.

[Max Preload]

Today I had a call from my insurance company saying that the bike was being written off...


I can understand them removing the bike if it had been written off, but it is not written off yet.

Make up your mind.

[kave]

Make up your mind.

They called me to say that they wished to write it off. This decision was made because repair costs exceeded the pre-crash valuation. As I am disputing the valuation, the bike will not be written off until we come to an agreement on the valuation. When/if the insurance company and I come to an agreement on the value of my bike, they will then compare that value to the cost for them to repair the bike to its pre-crash condition. If the equation still comes out that it is cheaper for the insurance company to write off the bike then it will be written off. If they decide that given the new valuation, it is now in their interests to repair the bike, then it will not be written off.

[MarkH]

If you are not happy then fight it!

I say: good for you for not bending over and taking it, I would go further and not be willing to 'split the difference' either. You paid good money to insure the bike for market value and since the accident was the fault of the other party you should expect to be paid out enough to buy a similar bike without having to pay any difference.

Stick to your guns and stand up for your rights - if a few hours of work getting your insurance company to play fair results in an extra thou or two then it is a pretty good return on your time.

[Maki]

I actually changed insurers, partly due to this issue. My previous insurer, AMI would only insure the bike for this nebulous "market value". I take good care of my bike and I think I keep in above average condition. I don't think "market value" is likely to be fair so I prefer an agreed amount. I now insure my bike for a fixed agreed amount so everyone knows where they stand if it is totaled. If you take good care of your bike I suggest you do the same.

I never had to file a claim but having to argue about the value of my bike if I do is aggravation I can do without, especially if my beloved bike is broken and bleeding somewhere...

[kave]

The insurance company has just had another valuation done, and the new one is half of their first one, I have also had a valuation done and it is three times their second valuation. I am concerned that because valuers get a lot of business from the insurance companies that they favour the insurance companies by pushing the values down. I don't see how three different valuations can come up with such substantially different results. Fuck.... it's looking like I will have to chase them through the courts, so I will be stuck on public transport for months.

[captain_andrey]

Are you going to name the company now?

[Hailwood]

If you read the proposed letter, it says who the company is in it....

[firefighter]

Are you going to name the company now?

To has at a guess.......as i've been through the same issues with "market value as opposed to "replacement value".......

I'm going to guess, that it's AMI?

I would'nt be surprised, thank fuck i'm with Vero-iv'e heard they actually pay out......(i'm hoping he's not gonna say vero!)

[firefighter]

If you read the proposed letter, it says who the company is in it....

No word of a fucken lie, I did'nt see that down the bottom, as I did'nt read it until now.

Looks like a company to stay clear of.....AMI that is....

I had a claim a while back and they dicked me over big time....exact same story, claiming something different, same outcome....fucken pricks.

Good luck dude, although from my very same experience, A.M.I will not budge......sorry....:blank:

I probably don't need to say it, but i'd reccommend to everyone, if they want to be covered, stay the hell away from them, they are'nt worth your money.

[MarkH]

The insurance company has just had another valuation done, and the new one is half of their first one, I have also had a valuation done and it is three times their second valuation. I am concerned that because valuers get a lot of business from the insurance companies that they favour the insurance companies by pushing the values down. I don't see how three different valuations can come up with such substantially different results. Fuck.... it's looking like I will have to chase them through the courts, so I will be stuck on public transport for months.

Go get 3 different valuations that YOU are happy with and present them to the insurance company. Also ask for details on the 2 quotes they have sourced and talk to the people that gave those quotes. Also complain to the insurance company about the quotes saying you believe them to be VERY suspect and advise them that you are considering making a complaint to the insurance ombudsman.

If you don't want to be walked all over then don't let that happen! Whatever you do, just don't take this shit!

I have heard horror stories about insurance companies fucking over their clients, the stories cover pretty much every insurance company around - they are all arseholes and they will all look to fuck you over if they can, stand up for yourself and make it clear you will not be cheated out of what you are due!

[portokiwi]

Thats why I like SWANN:first: They have a motorcycle assessor who rides a motorcycle to value your bike.
Done stright there and then

[NighthawkNZ]

HELP. My insurance company are thieves.

Nothing new to see here... move along ;)

[kave]

I am really starting to get sick of dealing with AMI

I am thinking about involving the ombudsman, but then everything will drag on. My bike is my only transport, and it is going to cost me more than they are shafting me for if I have to take public transport for the next 6 months. I really want to stick to my principals but I don't think I am in a position financially where I can afford to be without transport for that period of time.

[vgcspares]

just as a matter of record, Market Value should be an average of retail prices as advised to the assessor by licensed vehicle dealers (usually main dealers in the brand concerned)

so Market Value is what a dealer could have sold it for the day before the accident - which I'd argue is higher than anyone would pay privately on Trademe

... but then again I've seen @#@#heads listing bikes on Trademe at astronomic prices so they can be negotiated down big time (bit like the Briscoes' philosophy really)

... and of course I've come up against Herberts who cite these anomalous prices to try and prove the "market value" is off

... the same people who forget to reduce the sum insured each year and finish up with a bike insured for its new price 3 years back, whereas it's actually only worth 60% of that and even then only if sold by a dealer

[MarkH]

I am really starting to get sick of dealing with AMI

I am thinking about involving the ombudsman, but then everything will drag on. My bike is my only transport, and it is going to cost me more than they are shafting me for if I have to take public transport for the next 6 months. I really want to stick to my principals but I don't think I am in a position financially where I can afford to be without transport for that period of time.

Go to different dealers, get 3 quotes that YOU are happy with, take them to AMI and tell them that you believe these quotes that you have are realistic and that theirs are not. Tell them you don't want to take this case to the Ombudsman or to court, but you do want what is fair. Hopefully they will see that you are serious and not going to let them screw you and you wont have to go to any further effort to get paid out.

Personally I'd rather borrow some money and even buy a cheapie temporary bike than give in to some arseholes that are trying to cheat me. I don't like letting the cheaters win.

[shafty]

I'm not sure if there is an Insurance Industry Ombudsman, but I had a hassle with a wanker in a Bank I USED to deal with.

I rang him and said if the matter wasn't sorted by midday, my next call was to be to the Banking Ombudsman. The problem was fixed inside 30 minutes.

Good luck Mate - remember YOU ARE RIGHT. :2guns:

[firefighter]

just as a matter of record, Market Value should be an average of retail prices as advised to the assessor by licensed vehicle dealers (usually main dealers in the brand concerned)

so Market Value is what a dealer could have sold it for the day before the accident - which I'd argue is higher than anyone would pay privately on Trademe

is this, straight up, no bullshit fact? Do you have any references?

I'm not digging at ya I genuinely want to know-as I went through something similar and would definately like to copy this down should I need it.....
(I had this same issue with AMI myself, in which they ALSO used tardeme as a means of finding market value, and ripped me off pretty bad I feel)

[Max Preload]

I'm not sure if there is an Insurance Industry Ombudsman, but I had a hassle with a wanker in a Bank I USED to deal with.

*ahem* (http://www.iombudsman.org.nz/)

[Oscar]

is this, straight up, no bullshit fact? Do you have any references?

I'm not digging at ya I genuinely want to know-as I went through something similar and would definately like to copy this down should I need it.....
(I had this same issue with AMI myself, in which they ALSO used tardeme as a means of finding market value, and ripped me off pretty bad I feel)

Standard practice was for the assessor to get up to three valuations, the customer the same, and then average them. I doubt if Trade Me could be used to determine market value by an insurers definition as the prices paid could hardly be defined as "retail".

The Disputes Tribunal would be my first stop in your case...

[vgcspares]

is this, straight up, no bullshit fact? Do you have any references?
Well it's how I and my predecessors do it in the company I work with - I can't speak for other insurance companies, but would think it obvious that Trademe Classifieds can't be used as they are often "hopeful" and don't indicate what a bike actually sold for (if it sold at all) - similarly, Trademe auctions at best reflect a Private sale level which isn't the same as what you would have to pay to replace your bike from a dealer.

Incidentally we usually pay $s for our PAVs because we believe they have to come from a truly independent trade source which can withstand scrutiny.

All of this doesn't mean we don't have disagreements from time to time (see prior post)

[barty5]

I had the same prob when mine was stolen insurace co went to a suzuki/ harley dealer in wellington for a price for a yamaha not guessing an RMZ450 being way cheaper bike went from $12500 to $9000 in 3 days policy writern up friday claim went in on the monday (was back dated policy which is another looooong story) ended up with 3 prices from yamaha dealers and they payed out $11000 $1000 was excess.
secondly dont send leter saying your happy to meet them half way and split the difference. You will also have the same problem i had that they wont give you a letter of reaching deadlock so onbudsman wont help till you do.
I ended up giving them a dead line to pay out or ill hand it over to our lawyer they agreed with 2 hours to spare.

[KiwiKat]

Market Value is resale price not trade or discounted. AMI have always been good for me but they like cheap valuations. If you are on good terms with your Dealer and bike has been serviced etc. they will want you to replace from them. Talk purchase, Get quote. then sort the agent at AMI.

[Slyer]

I'm with AMI because I only have 3rd party, if I were buying a new bike I'd definitely look elsewhere.

[discotex]

You know what I'd do.... I'd ring Dave at Kiwibike and ask for advice after telling him you'll get a policy through him when you get your new bike.

He's a good bastard and knows the industry well. May even be able to put you onto some proper assessors to get a valuation that is fair and should be respected by AMI.

[Jerry74]

All insurance companies are thieves lol..... Vero through the Go Lightly scheme is pretty good... mines only $18.00 a fortnight for full bike insurance.

[Matt_TG]

It's not rocket science to settle an insurance claim involving vehicles.

If it's Market Value / Indemnity policy (as opposed to agreed value), then;

1. Get the repair cost from a repairer - you can use a repairer of your choice
2. Get at least two Pre Accident Valuations. Average them out. If they are wildly different in amounts, look into why and possibly get a third
3. Look at what the wreck is worth
4. Work out what is the most economical way to settle the claim. Usually MV less value of the wreck.

Looks like your insurers have done that, in essence you are unhappy with their valuations and the moving of the bike. As you've been told get some new ones from someone qualified to give a valuation (a dealer for example) and throw those into the pot. The sticking point is the value. The insurer staff do not have to be an expert on motorbikes in order to settle a claim, that's why they used qualified people such as dealers and repairers.

I can't see that you have any case against insurers, as they are paying as per your contract with them, unless you prove different / higher worth. If you want to pursue there is an Ombudsman (Insurance and Savings) but you need to demonstrate that you have exhausted all of the insurer's complaint procedures first.

Or as said, take it to the Disbutes Tribunal.

I've been in the assessing industry for over 10 years now and by far the biggest hassle in claims is people disputing the value of their prized commodity when it has a prang. It's worth what it's worth, agreed value is always less hassle if you get an insurer who is prepared to insure it on that basis. As you've found out AMI are not specialist bike insurers and unfortunately cannot provide the empathy you want.

Good luck!

[discotex]

As you've found out AMI are not specialist bike insurers and unfortunately cannot provide the empathy you want.

Exactly why I switched even though they handled my claim ok. I wanted someone who would do track cover - even if it meant higher excess or additional premium.

AMI weren't interested in taking my money (good on them for sticking to core business I guess) so I took my money elsewhere. Best thing I ever did. Very happy with Star through Kiwibike.

[orographic]

I actually changed insurers, partly due to this issue. My previous insurer, AMI would only insure the bike for this nebulous "market value". I take good care of my bike and I think I keep in above average condition. I don't think "market value" is likely to be fair so I prefer an agreed amount. I now insure my bike for a fixed agreed amount so everyone knows where they stand if it is totaled. If you take good care of your bike I suggest you do the same.

I never had to file a claim but having to argue about the value of my bike if I do is aggravation I can do without, especially if my beloved bike is broken and bleeding somewhere...

Interestingly enough, I have had this same problem with that same company.
When i got my bike, I was a customer of theirs of good standing ( via car insurances), and I naively enough thought that that'd pass on to insuring a motorbike.

They were quite happy to insure my bike, and the at the time current value of the bike was agreed on...
Then the policy documents turned up.
While the person on the phone, who was selling me the insurance was quite happy to have me believe i was insuring for a fixed value, the documents showed a market value policy...

I phoned them up, and complained that they'd made an error with the policy documents. .." oh no, we only do market value policies for motorcycles"

I did not appreciate being misled by them.

My bike is not currently insured, but that is largely due to a series of errors, than anything that could be perceived as malicious