NZ road racing in serious trouble

[Shaun]

PLAN made and Posted out in 2004,and look where we have gotten to already, perhaps I should have tried to do this 10 years ago.





Road racing coordinator/Promoter- This is a copy of a letter that I wrote and forwarded out to ALL registered Road Race License holders in 2004 the MNZ had a postal address for


I ONLY RECEIVED about 40 replies from over 150 letters!!!

Please take the time to read and respond. Your comments are extremely important and with out your feed back it makes it hard to make changes that will benefit our racing and enhance the future of our sport.

I am proposing that the motorcycle fraternity Employ our OWN full time promoter/coordinator, until all responses are returned and sifted through the full time job description is not possible to out line here but I will include what I would like this person to be doing.

Job Description

Co-ordination of all clubs for the race format, and information for riders, and communication with MNZ.
Promotional work with the media,series sponsors, importers,clubs,MNZ etc.
Group purchasing of race products making our purchase price “lower”
already giving us a return on our investment!

Who to employ

I suggest that we nominate 2 riders reps from each class and let this group go through all the resumes and make a choice.

How to pay this person

This is where I need you to all think long and hard about OUR racing and OUR sport and what it means to YOU?

I propose that all MNZ Road racing license holders invest $250-00 each .69 cents per day per year!!!!!

145 people x $250-00 = $ 36-250, I had a company that was prepared to invest $5000 as well- Total $ 41-250

$41-250 paid to a promoter as a base salary with an agreed percentage of additional funds collected by this person on OUR behalf.

This system will allow this person sell sell sell and make more income for them self, as well as promoting our sport professionaly and encouraging sponsors to invest there money in OUR sport

I realise this may seem to simple, but some of the best things in life are simple!!

90% of replies AGREED with it.


So how do we MAKE THIS happen?

The only way I can see racing going forward, is for the planning/coorination of it all coming into the 21st centenary and very very quickly

[GIXser]

sorry to say this shaun, but if ya want a good promoter, $41 k aint gonna cut it, after all you want people with connections, not people that need to "make connections" you pay for what you get....now dont get me wrong the concept is good, but where im from the numbers dont stack up.

ps on top of that you have car, petrol , travel, accomodation etc, my guess is a package of $120 k and you will get someone that can make a difference,,

my two cents..

[Shaun]

sorry to say this shaun, but if ya want a good promoter, $41 k aint gonna cut it, after all you want people with connections, not people that need to "make connections" you pay for what you get....now dont get me wrong the concept is good, but where im from the numbers dont stack up.

ps on top of that you have car, petrol , travel, accomodation etc, my guess is a package of $120 k and you will get someone that can make a difference,,

my two cents..



Fair point man

The main reason I posted this on here is show one and all that RIDERS really are the main problem! Only 40 replies to the above WOW

[Tony.OK]

I can certainly understand that someone is needed to take on that role..................but as an already struggling rider asking for more money in the current financial climate may as well be the final nail in the coffin.

I would be more comfortable in, say having a levy ($10 maybe) put into a race entry fee or something along those lines.

[scrivy]

I would be more comfortable in, say having a levy ($10 maybe) put into a race entry fee or something along those lines.

Why can't we charge more on the gates?? $5 here and there to support the racers?? Would you be gutted to think that for another $25 a year, you won't get to see the Nationals? If there were a 1000 spectators at each National event, then that would be $5000 x 5 = $25000 more $$$ to pay some one to do a good job.
Increasing riders entry fees would only bring in about $7500 if there were 150 riders (which sadly there aren't).

But I do agree, we MUST do something NOW!!

[Tony.OK]

Why can't we charge more on the gates?? $5 here and there to support the racers?? Would you be gutted to think that for another $25 a year, you won't get to see the Nationals? If there were a 1000 spectators at each National event, then that would be $5000 x 5 = $25000 more $$$ to pay some one to do a good job.
Increasing riders entry fees would only bring in about $7500 if there were 150 riders (which sadly there aren't).

But I do agree, we MUST do something NOW!!

I was thinking at club races too, spread over a club series it'd bring in quite a few extra dollars easily spread over however many months. That way its not just National level riders covering the cost, but everyone for the greater good.

[scrivy]

Imagine if we all watched the racing dwindle and dissapear and we didn't spend an extra $50-100 each a year to save it!!!
Pretty sad really!!

[Shaun]

Imagine if we all watched the racing dwindle and dissapear and we didn't spend an extra $50-100 each a year to save it!!!
Pretty sad really!!



Your reply here, is Exactually why I wrote the letter in the first place 5 years ago! I could see the trouble coming then

[GIXser]

Fair point man

The main reason I posted this on here is show one and all that RIDERS really are the main problem! Only 40 replies to the above WOW

ps im all for a riders fee that is compulsory, after all it is for the sponsors benefit!! either way Shaun you are definately on the right track !!

[PeteJ]

Shaun and Scrivy, I absolutely agree with what you say (and yes, Shaun, I was one who did not reply to your letter of 5 years ago...).

The problem is that we need the majority of riders to shell out more than they are capable of doing (either because they don't have the money, or they are too stingy to pay it). See, for example, the "expense" comments in the current thread on Rd 5 National Champs.

At the club level, which is the majority of competitors, our sport does not draw from well-heeled people. And those few who do have money are not likely to pay lumps unless they can see financial return or some other deeply personal gratification.

My pessimism at all this is born of the sport's decades of past failure to raise the big lumps of money to gain the interest and support we need. It is, as Scrivy hints, a waste of money to get an underpaid promoter. MNZ (or, more accurately, NZACU in earlier days) discovered that repeatedly.

Then you get a great idea and involve an international promoter, and get done over as happened with WSB.

[quallman1234]

This would work for Nationals. Not so much club meetings.

We need more events like the TRRS on the Club Scale.

[Racin Jason]

I didnt get that letter in 04 but i would have given it a thumbs up.

Whats $250 on top of an average racers budget? or a few extra bucks per meeting? By the end of a racing season it would hardly make a difference on the total budget. Money well spent i think.

[Brian d marge]

Well I would be up for that ....Remember if its community orientated you could apply for lotteries funding or task force green or something along those lines ,

A retired person maybe??

But you ( I would look long and hard at the ( cant think of the word ) but the way racing is /has been funded ..its outmoded and just doesnt work ..

a sponsor wants clear return on investment , and I cant think of ANY situation that would give a NZ sponsor a clear ROI . Not even at wsbk. ( except for shifting bike of the show room floor ...then a manufacture would lose this is the murky area of advertising ....)
As entertainment , Paeroa works .. still only 20 000 people max ... As a trade show with business offering / showing product ..

One thing is for sure . the costs need to be scaled back . In this climate 10 000 dollars for a track ( In New Zealand ) is plain robbery .. A percentage of the overall take maybe, but not a up front fee.

New Zealand is not a wealthy country , and because of this it has/,,,had???? 2 surprising spin offs IMHO, can do ( just do it ) and as much as I hate to say it ,,the No 8 fencing wire . attitude ...( not all of it was bad ,,) ..Buckets are a perfect example of the talent s ...look at what a fella on KB is doing ....( it could produce skilled engineers , and riders if the skills of a professional racer/engineer were available to be learnt.and used .)

So Racing in Nz . Scaled back , aimed at producing riders that can cut it over seas ,, look at Australia ,,for talent ... We are better than them ,,,by a long shot ! )

Over haul of MNZ. What are they there for and are they needed ... if they cannot be justified , ( if it is just for insurance ,,, why do we need all the other paraphernalia ...

With Motocross in NZ , I pay 35 dollars , for a day licence , race my heart out ,,, go home ...tyres , fuel , etc total ....200 dollars even if I bought a new set of tyres ...Usually 50 bucks including the day licence ......

Look how popular mx is ..and where we are on the world stage,,,,,,,,,

Heres an Idea

Buckets. The presentation is getting better , but this is an Ideal training ground for ..A ; Engineers , B riders

add a touch of professionalism , a bit more colour and razzmatazz ( easy to do on the smaller tracks ....)

The premier class being , 600 super sport ( using the same rules as world super sport , ( that means you can at least enter you bike ,in a world event ,,,, see side-cars ..)

Sorry for the drifting of ideas , but I think the fundamentals Must be changed , with clear aims and goals ,, otherwise its dead in the water ...

Stephen

[PeteJ]

One thing is for sure . the costs need to be scaled back . In this climate 10 000 dollars for a track ( In New Zealand ) is plain robbery .. A percentage of the overall take maybe, but not a up front fee.

Stephen

If I had paid the necessary millions of dollars on land and developing a road race track, I'd be seriously worried at getting enough even to maintain it at the annual return NZ track owners get.

Seriously, say $10K an average week x 52 weeks = $520K. Chickenfeed. Resurfacing alone is expenditure that is near impossible to meet from this.

[sidecar bob]

I imagine all the many MNZ staff are fairly well paid, so why isint the job already being done.
Its a bit like having a public health system & paying for medical insurance because the health system sucks arse.
I would however be happy to pay for it.

[svs]

The premier class being , 600 super sport ( using the same rules as world super sport , ( that means you can at least enter you bike ,in a world event ,,,, see side-cars ..)



Try same rules as world superstock. That's pretty much our 600 Sport production Rules and true supersport bikes would be way too expensive for this country.

Apart from that, maybe a good idea - bring back the rider levy, but instead of going to insurance it could go towards promotion. If it added $25 to a event entry fee would that kill off the entry numbers? I Dunno? I'd still enter

If the promoter did a decent enough job then you might be able to start charging gate fees, but i think that should be part of the incentive for the job - a cut on gate takings.

[Brian d marge]

If I had paid the necessary millions of dollars on land and developing a road race track, I'd be seriously worried at getting enough even to maintain it at the annual return NZ track owners get.

Seriously, say $10K an average week x 52 weeks = $520K. Chickenfeed. Resurfacing alone is expenditure that is near impossible to meet from this.

Some places can do it ...on the other thread , it was said that club days were considerably cheaper..and it really doesn't matter what the excuses are, if you price yourself out of the market ( see round 5) ...the show doesn't go on..

So are there cheaper tracks available ?


Stephen

[White trash]

I remember reading your original letter in 04 when Johann asked for my thoughts on it then. As I wasn't a racer it wasn't my place to respond but I must say I thought it a fantastic idea back then.

It still is now in fact. Shame KB wasn't such an awesome resource then as it is now.

[FROSTY]

Heres a question Ive never heard a decent answer to.
Where does the $100 odd a year that we pay for race licences ACTUALLY go??
It woulds be really sad to find that for example ROAD race licence holders are actually paying to send a MX rider to japan to compete.
Im not shit stirring here but its following on from what Shaun is saying
400 road licence holders x 100 a year means a lot of moolah.

[Clivoris]

I attended the NZGP and V8's at Manfield last weekend. The amount of money involved on the day was phenomenal. Virtually every team in every class had uniforms, promotional material. Some had grid girls etc. The atmosphere was electric and the public lapped it up. Kids hunting posters and autographs. They knew the driver's names and had their favorites. The racing was even pretty good. Nowhere near the excitement of the nationals, but pretty good, and I had a great day.
It's obvious that the public more readily identify with car racing, "driving's in the blood", but a lot of the excitement and atmosphere seemed to be pure hype. All paid for by sponsorship I assume, which is available because of the hype, which draws the sponsorship.......
We have a few teams at the pointy end of road racing in NZ that are doing this level of professionalism. The efforts of LG, as a non-motorcycling business, are outstanding and noticeable.
What would it take to get motorcycling up there at the same level as the cars?
Money, and then some more money. I suspect that it would take 3-5 years of sustained effort to increase the profile of our sport before we could start hooking some of the big sponsors in. Making connections in the mainstream media, getting some of the names and stories out there. Paying for the TV coverage so people can see how bloody cool it is. Finding ways to generate hype at the track, trade displays, chicks in lycra, bronzed male vikings in fur briefs holding a brolly for Flame. Whatever it takes. Then promote. This would cost mega I imagine, and the well is pretty dry. One of you young racers out there needs to marry Madonna and bring her money back to New Zealand.
Can a positive cycle be started without pingers?

[GIXser]

I attended the NZGP and V8's at Manfield last weekend. The amount of money involved on the day was phenomenal. Virtually every team in every class had uniforms, promotional material. Some had grid girls etc. The atmosphere was electric and the public lapped it up. Kids hunting posters and autographs. They knew the driver's names and had their favorites. The racing was even pretty good. Nowhere near the excitement of the nationals, but pretty good, and I had a great day.
It's obvious that the public more readily identify with car racing, "driving's in the blood", but a lot of the excitement and atmosphere seemed to be pure hype. All paid for by sponsorship I assume, which is available because of the hype, which draws the sponsorship.......
We have a few teams at the pointy end of road racing in NZ that are doing this level of professionalism. The efforts of LG, as a non-motorcycling business, are outstanding and noticeable.
What would it take to get motorcycling up there at the same level as the cars?
Money, and then some more money. I suspect that it would take 3-5 years of sustained effort to increase the profile of our sport before we could start hooking some of the big sponsors in. Making connections in the mainstream media, getting some of the names and stories out there. Paying for the TV coverage so people can see how bloody cool it is. Finding ways to generate hype at the track, trade displays, chicks in lycra, bronzed male vikings in fur briefs holding a brolly for Flame. Whatever it takes. Then promote. This would cost mega I imagine, and the well is pretty dry. One of you young racers out there needs to marry Madonna and bring her money back to New Zealand.
Can a positive cycle be started without pingers?

Youre right on the money...but this is where the diference lies...
car followers are a different breed of people, motorbike followers as a whole have a different mentality (my belief anyway), i remember when i first got LG on board, and tried to jazz it up a bit and make a bit of a song and dance.. all i got was ..why did he get it he's no good..and shit like that.! not from everyone but a few people,, what these people/boguns dont get... is that being fast is one thing, but making the whole thing somewhat entertaining is even better...even if you are not the fastest out there !!after all youre there for the sponsor..which in turn means you are there for the public... yes its wanky having posters etc... but that is what the public wants..well little kids anyway.:). i think people need to be more profesional in the sport as a whole,, it doesnt have to cost a fortune either.. the sport needs a big lift..from everyone

[koba]

the sport needs a big lift..from everyone

Thast the key bit aye, all you guys posting in here do alot for the sport.
I think getting more people putting in positivley is the place to start.

Even just having good, brief, exciting clips on you tube and silly wee things like that are what is going to make it work.

[Clivoris]

Youre right on the money...but this is where the diference lies...
car followers are a different breed of people, motorbike followers as a whole have a different mentality (my belief anyway), i remember when i first got LG on board, and tried to jazz it up a bit and make a bit of a song and dance.. all i got was ..why did he get it he's no good..and shit like that.! not from everyone but a few people,, what these people/boguns dont get... is that being fast is one thing, but making the whole thing somewhat entertaining is even better...even if you are not the fastest out there !!after all youre there for the sponsor..which in turn means you are there for the public... yes its wanky having posters etc... but that is what the public wants..well little kids anyway.:). i think people need to be more profesional in the sport as a whole,, it doesnt have to cost a fortune either.. the sport needs a big lift..from everyone

I think the bike crew are different, but it wasn't "car people" that stuck out for me at the V8s. They were people out for an experience. A parallel with the street races is relevant here I think. As a "watch of a race" the street meetings are pretty average, but people go for the "buzz", and I bet that a large proportion of the audience aren't bikers. The trans-tasman burglars angle would go very well as a promotional tool too, I think.
I absolutely agree with you as well about "being fast is one thing". They were all giving their sponsors value for money by putting the image out there (I would love to know how the budgets pan oout). The top finishers got more exposure and fans, but all the garages were humming. I had a wee chat to Angus Fogg as I felt some bizzare brand loyalty to LG. He had some bad luck in the early race but did well in the last. Funnily enough, my son didn't want one of his posters because of the girls on it spoiling it.:lol: Dad got that one.:2thumbsup
The solution will definitely involve more than MNZ. Their resources are not great. Somehow, we as riders need to find a way to build a critical mass of interest that draws others in.

[Brian d marge]

I attended the NZGP and V8's at Manfield last weekend. The amount of money involved on the day was phenomenal. Virtually every team in every class had uniforms, promotional material. Some had grid girls etc. The atmosphere was electric and the public lapped it up. Kids hunting posters and autographs. They knew the driver's names and had their favorites. The racing was even pretty good. Nowhere near the excitement of the nationals, but pretty good, and I had a great day.
It's obvious that the public more readily identify with car racing, "driving's in the blood", but a lot of the excitement and atmosphere seemed to be pure hype. All paid for by sponsorship I assume, which is available because of the hype, which draws the sponsorship.......
We have a few teams at the pointy end of road racing in NZ that are doing this level of professionalism. The efforts of LG, as a non-motorcycling business, are outstanding and noticeable.
What would it take to get motorcycling up there at the same level as the cars?
Money, and then some more money. I suspect that it would take 3-5 years of sustained effort to increase the profile of our sport before we could start hooking some of the big sponsors in. Making connections in the mainstream media, getting some of the names and stories out there. Paying for the TV coverage so people can see how bloody cool it is. Finding ways to generate hype at the track, trade displays, chicks in lycra, bronzed male vikings in fur briefs holding a brolly for Flame. Whatever it takes. Then promote. This would cost mega I imagine, and the well is pretty dry. One of you young racers out there needs to marry Madonna and bring her money back to New Zealand.
Can a positive cycle be started without pingers?

The uniforms and paraphernalia is easy to do , its all image , but in this climate , a company ( should be wanting cold hard cash back ,,,or away to get virtually free advertising )

I think it can be done .

Set out a clear plan , for example as I stated before , a clear road map from fun days out to the premier class. ( can be done )

Enforce the professional attitude/ appearance . ( again this is surprisingly cheap to do .) ... Have a look at Moto gp , its interlocking plastic ( that cheap plastic cardboard stuff ............ printed/painted ) ............

Have , a training scheme ( sort of like the mentor system , here on KB ) where riders AND pit crew can learn ...I am sorry but getting the family to help set up a bike ,,:cool:,( unless he or she is good at it ..................and I work with some good women engineers , so thats no excuse )

EVERYONE must get something out of it , wether its the chance to set up forks under the watchful eye of say a well know specialist ) or learn about promotion from ..someone who has / is in that field ..right down to the rider who , gets value for money.( percieved )

It doesnt have to be big to start with. It could be Street stocks, on Kart tracks,

Me I would work back from the average disposable cash in the average YOUNGSTERS pocket , and work up from there ending up with say 600cc superstocks , with sponsorship. ( for travel expenses on????) or 600cc and a separate company looking after travel and advertising ( setting up the pits etc for nominal sum ??)


but if its kept simple and with in the average kiwis budget , it would work.

I have 2 kids , and every dollar counts , but here in Japan I can do a series . I can crate a bike and get it sent to the other end of the island ( 16000 yen , hire a truck 6000 yen a day and hotel 8000 yen a night tyres 6000 each entry fee 10000 yen approx ) 80 000 yen ( well 100 000 if you include other stuff such as toll fees ) thats affordable ( just , even more so if I got off arse and earned some extra money )

split between 4 people ? ...........................( they have clubs here who split the costs between each member ...so they purchase a bike , work on it and ride as a club ,, beats bingo night ) ????????????

it can be done

Sorry if I get steamed up, but I get pissed off when people say cant be done , and I am doing it , and it seems to me that the only thing stopping it from happening are the same olds , same olds ....which we have discussed ad infinitium ...

So ...
..had a whole raft of blah blah to add but theres no point . In the gaps in my day I will put together something to illustrate the point . it wont be accurate as I am not party to good info , but someone else will be..... may help?


Stephen imho

[sinfull]

I think the bike crew are different, but it wasn't "car people" that stuck out for me at the V8s. They were people out for an experience. A parallel with the street races is relevant here I think. As a "watch of a race" the street meetings are pretty average, but people go for the "buzz", and I bet that a large proportion of the audience aren't bikers. The trans-tasman burglars angle would go very well as a promotional tool too, I think.
I absolutely agree with you as well about "being fast is one thing". They were all giving their sponsors value for money by putting the image out there (I would love to know how the budgets pan oout). The top finishers got more exposure and fans, but all the garages were humming. I had a wee chat to Angus Fogg as I felt some bizzare brand loyalty to LG. He had some bad luck in the early race but did well in the last. Funnily enough, my son didn't want one of his posters because of the girls on it spoiling it.:lol: Dad got that one.:2thumbsup
The solution will definitely involve more than MNZ. Their resources are not great. Somehow, we as riders need to find a way to build a critical mass of interest that draws others in.

I'd be interested to see what draw a well advertised stunt show could bring to a vic series round ! Has anyone tried it ?

[GIXser]

there is one way to make a start.. that is.. to set up our own club, like amcc or vmcc.. but its focus is on promotion etc...

[roadracingoldfart]

I'd be interested to see what draw a well advertised stunt show could bring to a vic series round ! Has anyone tried it ?



Yeah ..... Get Frenchy to do a lunch session .

In the 80s there was a young guy (Steffan Merryman or Something) doing a show on a Trials bike and he was the talking point of the meeting , up in the crowd , riding the pit wall and then over the marshals car to the cheer of the crowd.
Thats the thing needed , specticle and excitment.

Anything promoting motorcycle racing is going to get my vote.

Paul.

[Tony.OK]

Youre right on the money...but this is where the diference lies...
car followers are a different breed of people, motorbike followers as a whole have a different mentality (my belief anyway), i remember when i first got LG on board, and tried to jazz it up a bit and make a bit of a song and dance.. all i got was ..why did he get it he's no good..and shit like that.! not from everyone but a few people,, what these people/boguns dont get... is that being fast is one thing, but making the whole thing somewhat entertaining is even better...even if you are not the fastest out there !!after all youre there for the sponsor..which in turn means you are there for the public... yes its wanky having posters etc... but that is what the public wants..well little kids anyway.:). i think people need to be more profesional in the sport as a whole,, it doesnt have to cost a fortune either.. the sport needs a big lift..from everyone
Mate you and Chopper are doing an exceptional job getting LG's name out there..................there will always be people trying to put others down.

From what I saw at Paeroa every kid and second adult had something with an LG logo.......................the pit setup was never empty either. I came home with nothing though:laugh:

I'm hoping other businesses might start to take note of what you and LG are doing and get drawn into the scene. Then I might not have to make up my own cheesey T shirts lol.

[KS34]

Dear lord I do believe people on this thread are getting excited! Entertainment is the key, all these ideas are great but as Gixser has already said we need a group of people to put all this excitement together as an event/series. My idea of a great idea is several people with drive /ideas/contacts get together and have a brainstorming day/weekend, get all the ideas out there see what is possible and act, as a group and with this network of people on kiwibiker with all their strengths and abilities this can take off, it's just a case of can we all be bothered? I will put my hand up.

[piston broke]

well i was surprised 2 days ago,
there was an ad on tv about the puke round.
thats the first i remember ever of any nz bike racing.
i've been watchin tv since it was b and w

[Marknz]

I'd be happy to pay a levy for this sort of position in 2010 if it means that my sponsors will get more support for their support, if you now what I mean.

It's a bloody good idea, Shaun.

But like Frosty, I'd like to see a complete breakdown of where the current MNZ fees go to.

[koba]

there is one way to make a start.. that is.. to set up our own club, like amcc or vmcc.. but its focus is on promotion etc...

Or put more effort into an overworked VMCC...

[sidecar bob]

well i was surprised 2 days ago,
there was an ad on tv about the puke round.
thats the first i remember ever of any nz bike racing.
i've been watchin tv since it was b and w

Horse!!!. . . Stable door!!!. . . . Na, too late.

[WarrenW]

Just remember the hungry track owners raise the cost of hirage by 500% as soon as you charge admission. Sort of wipes out charging spectators doesn't it!

[sinfull]

Just remember the hungry track owners raise the cost of hirage by 500% as soon as you charge admission. Sort of wipes out charging spectators doesn't it!

Merchandise .....

[trev]

And who is this promotions manager going to promote too Shaun ??
The highest populated area in NZ, representing 40 - 45% of the entire population of NZ is Taupo - north. That is 40+% of the potential riders (kids etc upwards), 40+% of the potential spectators AND MOST IMPORTANTLY 40+% of the potential targets for sponsorship promotion.
What happens north of Taupo - SFA - & don't say people from this area won't come to a well run bike racing event because Paeroa proves they will.

Imagine if Rugby ( or any other sport you wish to choose) could only have north of Taupo 1 x S14 game (nationals race), 1 x NPC game (Paeroa) & 2 club games at (say) the Onewhero rugby club (AMCC) & any other time anyone else wants to play, participate or watch they have to fuck off down to Palmerston North. How many sponsors would rugby have then ?

Until AMCC comes out of hibernation or VMCC moves into their patch & runs a series ( N.I. Championship ??) that includes races at Taupo & Hampton Downs I'm not going to embarass myself any more trying to get my business mates interested in serious sponsorship & quite frankly I don't know why anyone else would bother either.

And for the usual slaggers out there yes i have put my money where my mouth is and sponsored this sport (albeit in a small way)

[brads]

well i was surprised 2 days ago,
there was an ad on tv about the puke round.
thats the first i remember ever of any nz bike racing.
i've been watchin tv since it was b and w

Mate,there have been ads for every round.

[Mystic13]

Okay, so we all want something better. I'm not sure Shauns suggestion of the extra fee will work. I say this because I've just read the strategic plan and the changes suggested are not in the plan. The priority for road race seems to be junior development programmes, and attracting an international event. You can also read what the Road Race Commission has been reporting on and again this thread doesn't seem to be a priority.

So my thoughts are giving MNZ extra money will mean extra money for their specific plans.

It seems to me that there is a lack of communication and link between MNZ and the grass roots. It seems they also acknowledge that. So your options are change that, become actively involved at club level, and seek to vote in people that are prepared to support the changes you want. Or just make the changes at club level and forget MNZ all together. It seems some clubs have wandered off and are doing a great job.

Maybe a new club, or getting actively involved in an existing club may be the two best options.

So the question is ... do you aim to change the system which takes time or do you do your own thing?



MNZ Strategic Plan

http://www.motorcyclingnz.co.nz/download/MNZ_Strategic_Plan_2008.pdf


MNZ Constitution

http://www.motorcyclingnz.co.nz/download/MNZ_Constitution_effective_1_January_2008.pdf

[PeteJ]

Until AMCC comes out of hibernation or VMCC moves into their patch & runs a series ( N.I. Championship ??) that includes races at Taupo & Hampton Downs I'm not going to embarass myself any more trying to get my business mates interested in serious sponsorship & quite frankly I don't know why anyone else would bother either.

And for the usual slaggers out there yes i have put my money where my mouth is and sponsored this sport (albeit in a small way)

So why don't you just set up/take over a club and run meetings the way you want to see, then?

[mikeey01]

Can this problem be broken down into a simplistic form?

What is the real problem?
1.Lack of competitors
2.Lack on Sponsors
3.Lack of spectators

Am I on the right track here?

[Mystic13]

i remember when i first got LG on board, and tried to jazz it up a bit and make a bit of a song and dance.. all i got was ..why did he get it he's no good..and shit like that.! not from everyone but a few people,,


... yes its wanky having posters etc... but that is what the public wants..well little kids anyway.:). i think people need to be more profesional in the sport as a whole,, it doesnt have to cost a fortune either.. the sport needs a big lift..from everyone

I'm guessing people that are negative about sponsorship are the same people that don't go looking for it... waiting for it to come from above and wondered what went wrong when they saw you get it. For me I'm glad you got it because it shows people it can be done and it makes it easier for the next person to do.


wanky having posters?... wash your mouth out! Kids love 'em and it leaves a lasting impression on them. That's worth a fortune to the motorcycle world. They start to develop or build their passion for bikes. And if they ask you to sign them then sign them... it's making a personal connection with them. Wanky... what the?

(Sorry to give you a hard time. I think you guys are doing a great job and getting it largely right... including the posters and i just wanted to let you know)

[Burrt Badger]

And who is this promotions manager going to promote too Shaun ??
The highest populated area in NZ, representing 40 - 45% of the entire population of NZ is Taupo - north. That is 40+% of the potential riders (kids etc upwards), 40+% of the potential spectators AND MOST IMPORTANTLY 40+% of the potential targets for sponsorship promotion.
What happens north of Taupo - SFA - & don't say people from this area won't come to a well run bike racing event because Paeroa proves they will.

Imagine if Rugby ( or any other sport you wish to choose) could only have north of Taupo 1 x S14 game (nationals race), 1 x NPC game (Paeroa) & 2 club games at (say) the Onewhero rugby club (AMCC) & any other time anyone else wants to play, participate or watch they have to fuck off down to Palmerston North. How many sponsors would rugby have then ?

Until AMCC comes out of hibernation or VMCC moves into their patch & runs a series ( N.I. Championship ??) that includes races at Taupo & Hampton Downs I'm not going to embarass myself any more trying to get my business mates interested in serious sponsorship & quite frankly I don't know why anyone else would bother either.

And for the usual slaggers out there yes i have put my money where my mouth is and sponsored this sport (albeit in a small way)

Trev. This isnt Rugby. Rugby has many more venues and a far greater support base. NZ circuits make far more money out of Car Race meetings than they do bike race meetings.
See if you can get any more Track Bookings out of Pukekohe!!!!!!
There are only 52 weekends a year and with the number of Car Clubs, Horse Race Dates (Yes it is Primarily a Horse Racing and Training venue), Motorcycle Clubs Drift meetings and Driver Training/Test Days, the venue is pretty much booked out year round. As in THERE ARE NO MORE DATES AVAILABLE! Besides no more dates being available, have you ever tried getting Volunteers to organise, run, marshall at a race meeting. This is a problem Nationwide, because lots of the would be volunteers work either part or all of the weekend now.
Taupo has also been used by AMCC, but the logistics of running a meeting there proved too expensive for an Auckland based club. Entry Fees would have to rise to make it feasible. That on its own rules the option out.
Hampton Downs will be available after June 1st, but it will not be cheap and as mentioned in other threads, Riders are already upset about the cost of entry fees.
So, before you start spouting off like a font of knowledge, do some research.

[Mystic13]

Until AMCC comes out of hibernation or VMCC moves into their patch & runs a series ( N.I. Championship ??) that includes races at Taupo & Hampton Downs I'm not going to embarass myself any more trying to get my business mates interested in serious sponsorship & quite frankly I don't know why anyone else would bother either.

And for the usual slaggers out there yes i have put my money where my mouth is and sponsored this sport (albeit in a small way)
[QUOTE=trev;1964053]



I notice on the list of motorcycle websites over at MNZ there is no AMCC. So what's going on between the two?

So a new club seems to be the go then? Or become active in an existing one.

I'm curious, what does everyone think is the way to get change.

MNZ have changed their structure from being run by committee to having a CEO specifically to run this thing as a business and to make it work.

So should these things be aimed at MNZ? Would MNZ support the Shaun type proposal and would MNZ allow communication and lobbying with their members to address this. It seems like it would be win-win. That's assuming MNZ operate as a business for the best interest of the sport.

In looking at current events it seems the greatest success is coming at club level, rider level and promotor level with small numbers in each group.

I was concerned that MNZ had listed a concern of theirs being a lack of control over the Nationals. A number of their goals seemed to be about what can MNZ do for MNZ. e.g. Aim to increase membership by 2% strategy "prepare benefits schedule of being a member of MNZ". So this to me means tell everyone how great we are and why they should belong so we can get more money. That's just not how a successful organisation operates. Usually it's what can we do for our members that will encourage more people to want to join us. The focus is internal instead of external.

It seems to me their strategies are off the mark and members, riders and clubs need to communicate with them more to get the message across.

So what is MNZ like? Is it there for the sport and promoting it and building it or is it more their for itself? I'm curious. So which came first MNZ promoting MX etc and the like, and then people like Josh etc being on the world stage or was it a club thing?

It seems to me that MNZ at this time may not be the answer to the question. Is MNZ heading for the "they know best thing".

With cars, who has made the difference. I suspect it wasn't the governing body but more the drivers, team owners, promoters.

It seems to me if you want to succeed with marketing road racing you go and talk to the car guys. They have lifted their game dramatically over the last several years. I bet they'd be happy to talk as well.

[steveyb]

I will put in a plug for the set up that Maarty VB has built and plead for more of them.
Yes, takes money to make (but surprising how little if you think outside the box)
Yes, takes time to build and set up and take down. But you are building stuff anyway aren't you? And if you can't afford an extra 30mins at each end of the day then you are messing about.

Go have a look at what he has created. It is fan bloody tastic and I for one will be attempting to do the same for Moto Academy (if he can show me how!! hint hint hehehe).

This speaks to the issue of stepping up the game and making the show more attractive.
All good things start with small steps.
Jumping into the deep end is a sure fire way to get drowned rather than to learn to swim.

So think about this: If EVERY single racer stepped their game up by simply setting up a tidy and organised pit area (instead of having shit from arsehole to breakfast flung about the place), hung up a signwritten board or banner showing who they are, what they are riding, who is helping them, stuff like that, wore some nice clean clothing, had a shave, maybe made sure that their bikes are always painted well and CLEAN!!!!!, then suddenly the meeting starts to look like a well oiled and presentable offering. If you have a group of mates who race together, make it a team and paint all the bikes the same colours (and not just black or red!!) and come up with a marketable name, not Shit For Brains Racing or something crap like that.

At the moment we look like a dogs breakfast!

ADMIT IT.
If you think that it is currently OK and that what I have said above is too much to do, then you are part of the problem!
What I suggest costs nothing (except maybe the board and bike painting) but makes a world of difference.

By example, if you behaved in this way at BSB, MRO or BEMCEE meetings in the UK, you would be spoken to by someone and told to step up your game.
(And don't get on my case about BSB being all this and all that. BEMCEE, even maybe MRO in some respects are no different to VMCC, just in scale. But 'cos they do these things and others like having mega pound entry fees and prize money, there is more money for everyone, well at least there was!!).

Have a think about that before planning all sorts of They must do this and They must do that and We need someone to do this and that.
Maybe the current structure is not 100% the greatest, but actually it works, but the competitors let it down by not stepping up their game. Anyone who thinks that a new club, a new promoter a new this and new that will change anything if the competitors don't change first is simply dreaming.

Sponsorship and revenues are about marketing and if your offering looks like, tastes like and smells like a dogs breafast then par infra......
But if it is slick and attractive then people will want to be involved. As Clivoris said about the Tier 1 cars, it is the hype. Their racing is a bit pedestrian compared to ours, but their paddock, presentation, hype make us look like we are rolling in the mud.

And don't get on my case, I have been around this sport since 1989 and I am trying my best, a step at a time, to make a difference in my pit area and surrounds. Next please?......

YOU can make the difference.

Steve

[svs]

Or put more effort into an overworked VMCC...

VMCC has been asking for people to step up and sort this thing for years! The ideas aren't new. But when you only have 2 or 3 core people organising the series (who all have full time jobs) then some other people are needed to set up the 'event' side of things. Working till 2am just to get the actual racing setup and late entries sorted was enough for me to throw in the towel.

When I was secretary I tried getting shops onboard for merchandising and display stands but see how many actually turned up and ran a stand? None. Tried getting people to put out signs the day before "Motorbike racing this way -->" sort of thing, but again real life and real jobs got in the way.

The ideas are there. The clubs have the experience and knowledge with running the racing side of things. If you want to promote an event - make it easier on yourself and rock on up to a club and offer to do it. I'm pretty sure VMCC would jump at the chance. (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showpost.php?p=1942142&postcount=4)

[Clivoris]

I will put in a plug for the set up that Maarty VB has built and plead for more of them.
Yes, takes money to make (but surprising how little if you think outside the box)
Yes, takes time to build and set up and take down. But you are building stuff anyway aren't you? And if you can't afford an extra 30mins at each end of the day then you are messing about.

All good things start with small steps.
Jumping into the deep end is a sure fire way to get drowned rather than to learn to swim.

So think about this: If EVERY single racer stepped their game up by simply setting up a tidy and organised pit area (instead of having shit from arsehole to breakfast flung about the place), hung up a signwritten board or banner showing who they are, what they are riding, who is helping them, stuff like that, wore some nice clean clothing, had a shave, maybe made sure that their bikes are always painted well and CLEAN!!!!!, then suddenly the meeting starts to look like a well oiled and presentable offering. If you have a group of mates who race together, make it a team and paint all the bikes the same colours (and not just black or red!!) and come up with a marketable name, not Shit For Brains Racing or something crap like that.

At the moment we look like a dogs breakfast!

ADMIT IT.
If you think that it is currently OK and that what I have said above is too much to do, then you are part of the problem!
What I suggest costs nothing (except maybe the board and bike painting) but makes a world of difference.

Have a think about that before planning all sorts of They must do this and They must do that and We need someone to do this and that.
Maybe the current structure is not 100% the greatest, but actually it works, but the competitors let it down by not stepping up their game. Anyone who thinks that a new club, a new promoter a new this and new that will change anything if the competitors don't change first is simply dreaming.

Sponsorship and revenues are about marketing and if your offering looks like, tastes like and smells like a dogs breafast then par infra......
But if it is slick and attractive then people will want to be involved. As Clivoris said about the Tier 1 cars, it is the hype. Their racing is a bit pedestrian compared to ours, but their paddock, presentation, hype make us look like we are rolling in the mud.


YOU can make the difference.

Steve

Sound advice Steve. Marty VB is a real good example. Won a trophy for it if I remember correctly. Got me thinking mate.

VMCC has been asking for people to step up and sort this thing for years! The ideas aren't new. But when you only have 2 or 3 core people organising the series (who all have full time jobs) then some other people are needed to set up the 'event' side of things. Working till 2am just to get the actual racing setup and late entries sorted was enough for me to throw in the towel.

When I was secretary I tried getting shops onboard for merchandising and display stands but see how many actually turned up and ran a stand? None. Tried getting people to put out signs the day before "Motorbike racing this way -->" sort of thing, but again real life and real jobs got in the way.

The ideas are there. The clubs have the experience and knowledge with running the racing side of things. If you want to promote an event - make it easier on yourself and rock on up to a club and offer to do it. I'm pretty sure VMCC would jump at the chance. (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showpost.php?p=1942142&postcount=4)

Would we ever.

[Mystic13]

Steveyb and SVS you both make good sense.

Paeroa as an example is run by a promoter with AMCC doing the track stuff.

So to lift the game the promotor needs to ask for and expect a higher standard from the riders as an example is what you're suggesting. Seems reasonable.

Someone mentioned a crowd of 20,000. With most being adults if you figure an average gate of $20 that would be $400,000. I wonder what a rainy day would be.

You would think there would be a bit more trickling down to the riders and marshall's etc.

Formula 1 got it's start under Ecclestone when the riders were not getting paid to turn up, or trophies and money disappeared, and the whole thing was disorganised. Sounds familiar. He set about dealing to drivers being paid, safety, marketing and turning it into an entertaining event and the rest is history.

There is no question that the show can change. And it has to change.

[GIXser]

par infra[/I]......
But if it is slick and attractive then people will want to be involved. As Clivoris said about the Tier 1 cars, it is the hype. Their racing is a bit pedestrian compared to ours, but their paddock, presentation, hype make us look like we are rolling in the mud.



YOU can make the difference.

Steve


Very very well said ..... so where to from now,,, how do we get people to listen??

[steveyb]

Very very well said ..... so where to from now,,, how do we get people to listen??

Maybe it might take a few concerned individuals to just wander around the paddock and chat with riders and teams and ask, cajole them to step up?

Starts at home though. Moto Academy NZ certainly needs to raise our game.
I had grand plans for an organised garage, but it soon went a bit pearshaped when everyone got their stuff in there. Will need to devise better systems.

Having said all of that, trying to turn the pigs ears of garages (oops I mean animal stalls) we tend to have (at Manfeild, pitlane garages aside), funny cage things (at Ruapuna), patch of grass (Levels, Teretonga) and leaky covered space or patch of mud (Pukekohe) into silk purses really takes some imagination.
But it can be done, at least the first steps can be done.
Another step is to not park vehicles in front of garages so that spectators and sponsors can actually see your bikes and teams and move around.
Unload then move your vehicle to a parking space. Much easier to get in and out of the garage space too.

I am spending plenty of 2c worth here ay? Call me anal steve, whatever.
Just have a think, that is all I ask.

Steve

[KS34]

Maybe it might take a few concerned individuals
I am spending plenty of 2c worth here ay? Call me anal steve, whatever.
Just have a think, that is all I ask.

Steve

Thats what happens when you drink too many cups of tea!

Very good points, I'm going to help the Vic club this year and one thing I would like to see is an information day/night before the first round and I know it is late and I know not all could get there but I think the whole bike/team presentation thing could be discussed and explained there. (When I started racing I know it would have come in very handy for me) Bring up things like flags, racing etiquette, consequences of stupidity etc etc...
I think branding the series in a very 'cool' way would also help and include things like t-shirts/caps into the series so the competitors take ownership and are proud of the series gives visabilty/exposure and builds brand strength eg an asset. I agree tidy your own corner first.

[sinfull]

Very very well said ..... so where to from now,,, how do we get people to listen??
Make fuckin noise !!! wanna Hear me scream !

[Clivoris]

Very very well said ..... so where to from now,,, how do we get people to listen??

I visited Q8 Oils today and talked about some of this stuff. They are going to sort out some of their promotional material that I can dress up my pit area with and are keen to explore ideas like a discount on product to those who make purcahases direct and mention my illustrious career. They will deliver nationwide.
I will be talking to roadracingoldfart as I am now on the periphery of team showerbuddy and see what this will actually look like through the Actrix Winter Series. What can we do as a team? Through this connection I will also be sponsored by Dunlop Tyres so there is another sponsor to promote.
To this end I will see if I can organise a poster-sized card of myself on the bike with acknowledgement of the sponsors, that can dress up the pits. I don't receive cash sponsorship so this will come out of my pocket.
I will work on keeping my pit area tidier on race day and engage more with members of the public who wander by.
Crazefox is in the process of repairing and repainting my fairings, so my bike will be looking presentable. If this thread had started 2 weeks ago I might have had the sense to think about team colours:Oops: He gives a great deal, but this too comes out of my own pocket.
I will race the national round at manfield next year if all the ducks line up.
I will create a proper racing CV and attempt to get some cash sponsorship, some of which I will use for promotional purposes.
I will bring the issues raised in this thread and others, to the VMCC committee and see if there is more that we can do. As has already been said though, it will work better if we have more people to do some of the unglamorous donkey-work.
And finally, with an eye toward the future, I have built a podium replica at home and will practice standing on it without scratching my balls.

[ajturbo]

i used to go to the castrol 6hr races

VERY boring racing.. apart from the start...

BUT watching what was going on in the "pit's" ( refueling, new wheels, brakes etc) made it seam worth the money to get there....

i would pay more to race IF that went towards supporting what shaun has presented back in 04....

[malcy25]

Until AMCC comes out of hibernation or VMCC moves into their patch & runs a series ( N.I. Championship ??) that includes races at Taupo & Hampton

Trev - this is not aimed at you - rather it provided a good wider context for the wider subject. I just used your quote to open it out!! Though as an aside given the series of annual activities (something like 8 events at Puke this year, more at the buckets, Ellerslie Christmas parade, ongoing rider training, open every Thursday night in their own club rooms, videos, quiz evenings, inter club bbq's, involvement with Paeroa at an operational level) I'm a little lost by the "hibernation" comment.

Anyway, for wider amusement, introspection, whatever, here's some thoughts to think about:

Oxfords definition of "club" is (apart from those in relation things for hitting other things is " association of persons meeting periodically for shared activity"

I think many people see themselves divorced from the orgainsations they actually belong too. ie the AMCC, VMCC, Upper frankton CB500 cross dressers owners group, whatever. Ie there is an us and them mentality, with the expectation that the club "delivers to me" the stuff I want, but they don't actually see themslves as being part of it or making some of it happen. The strong clubs are the ones that the members have this shared mindset.

Essentially the riders ARE the club. It's not someone else, it's not an organisation or business I just source a product from (like say MOBIL). The key two words in the description above is "shared activity"

The club is not the committee members, IT IS THE WHOLE MEMBERSHIP. As has been previously stated here in this topic and others by various posters (Clivoris, SVS, PeteJ, Whitetrash are some I can think of) the clubs are usually hurting for man power to do this stuff. I guess you get out what you put in?

I see many ideas expoused here, good and bad. But you talk closely to many club officials they have these ideas thrown at them all the time (and about every 5 years, the all come around again) usually as "feeback" but essentially "opinion". But it all boils down in many cases to talk only.

The way forward? Opinion and feedback is all well and good, but it actually needs to translate into 2 other things to make any changes long term:
1) Bring a solution Ie xyz is the problem, but if we do it this way, the problem won't exist because abc will happen
2) bring man power to make it happen. Most of this stuff all takes time, epecially the promotional side. It also costs an awful lot of money. If you read AMCN and in particular Ken Wootton's monthly column he has been hammering away about organisation vs promotion. Some clubs are very good at orgainsing and running a meeting. They may not be promoting it however. I guess the difference is resource available. Financial or human.

The existing resource is always running out as people come and go from the committees that actually make stuff like race meetings happen. They don't get paid and they try to have a life also. Who will be stepping up when they go? Many of them feel bound to stay because so few people actually generally get involved. The poor suckers there are usually trapped, it's not that they won't let go, it's who is there to hand the reigns to? Many club Annual AGM's barely make a quorum, let alone have people fighting for a position at the "big table".

Remember they then have to answer to the same members I talk about above who have the us and them mentality as to why they lost $10,000 running a race meeting and get caned for it when the membership fees or whatver go up because the club can no longer afford to subsidise the operational costs and come and go requirements from accumulated funds.

Hampton: hmmm, I see many people advising cost being an issue to attending race meetings. Hamtpon hire costs I believe will be rather more expensive than the existing circuits which will only make the racing more expensive again, plus the number of people to run an event there is considerably larger also (again more cost in terms of "koha", lunches etc). How many clubs would be able to afford to run there regularly if their club series event w sthe price of the Ntionals are now? How much will the Nationals be if run there? It may be a great place when finished and I'm really looking forward to having a play there like everyone else, but at what $ cost?

Other quotes This one Mystic 13: "I notice on the list of motorcycle websites over at MNZ there is no AMCC. So what's going on between the two?"

There are 80-90 afiliated clubs in NZ. The list of links to the clubs is approx 15 long. There must be about 65 that are missing.

Problem? None I'd say. Just one of ther overworked, unpaid volunteers from the AMCC probably doesn't know it's not up or if they do, they have more urgent things they have to deal with like running a club and creating a national round, running a club series, multiple training days, Paeroa etc that they do every year for the members.

Maybe they have asked and MNZ haven't done it (waiting for the next set of work in that area of the website?)- who knows? Is it really an issue? Is there any inference you are alluding to??

[Wingnut]

Can this problem be broken down into a simplistic form?

What is the real problem?
1.Lack of competitors
2.Lack on Sponsors
3.Lack of spectators

Am I on the right track here?

After going to watch a Nationals round this year I tend to agree with you. If you spend big $$ on advertising/promoting it is only gonna be a one off attendace from Joe Public if there is a quarter full grid. Whos gonna go back if the entertainment isn't all its cracked up to be.

Combine a North Island and South Island Championship in each grade to be run in conjunction with the National events to ensure there is a larger number of competitors to enhance the entertainment factor perhaps? I could afford to do all the south island events but to get up north is out of my budget and I am sure there is others in the same boat. I have suggested t his in another thread somewhere too.

Many racers = increased entertainment = increased spectator attendace = increased sponser attention = increased finances = increased exposure = more racers = increased entertainment = increased spectator attendace ....and so on and so on.

Just a thought.

[Brian d marge]

I visited Q8 Oils today and talked about some of this stuff. They are going to sort out some of their promotional material that I can dress up my pit area with and are keen to explore ideas like a discount on product to those who make purcahases direct and mention my illustrious career. They will deliver nationwide.I have built a podium replica at home and will practice standing on it without scratching my balls.

Have a look at the ( i dont know what you call it ) but its plastic ..err cardboad ..looks like cardboard but is plastic , Comes in 2m x 1m ( roughly ) sheets or even thin plywood ..see how Ducati do it , staggard so that the front looks nice but behind the facia ,,,emmm messy ( but you cant see that ) ... add a tee ?? stand to the bottom and they become freestanding .

just a thought

Stephen

[Clivoris]

Have a look at the ( i dont know what you call it ) but its plastic ..err cardboad ..looks like cardboard but is plastic , Comes in 2m x 1m ( roughly ) sheets or even thin plywood ..see how Ducati do it , staggard so that the front looks nice but behind the facia ,,,emmm messy ( but you cant see that ) ... add a tee ?? stand to the bottom and they become freestanding .

just a thought

Stephen

Churr.:apint: I've seen the plastic stuff that is the same as what the real estate signs are made of. Durable and easy to print on. My ideas aren't as ambitious as those in the pictures. It's all on once I hit F2 though.:lol:

[roadracingoldfart]

Maybe it might take a few concerned individuals to just wander around the paddock and chat with riders and teams and ask, cajole them to step up?

Another step is to not park vehicles in front of garages so that spectators and sponsors can actually see your bikes and teams and move around.
Unload then move your vehicle to a parking space. Much easier to get in and out of the garage space too.


Steve


I really agree here Steve. One of the things that stun me is the effort alot of guys and girls go to with bike/pit presentation and yet to see the hard work you have to walk around a bunch of vans and trailers and generators and all sorts of stuff.
Some garages are so crammed full of crap that the bikes are actually outside . Whats with that.??
To see what your pit / bike / sponsors image is like , step away from your garage and take a photo . See what it looks like and ask yourself if the image is just a bit short of good enough.
My dad came to watch me race the year before last before i retired and although he remebered what my bike looked like , he had to wander around all the pits and couldnt find me , a quick call and he zeroed in on me .... reason ,
all the cars (other racers and thier various support cars) were in front of our garage and he couldnt see us. No sponsor profile there aye.

Before it gets out of hand , this is directed at nobody in particular.

Paul.

[lostinflyz]

FFS sake guys. are you going RACING or designing a womans lingerie shop.

nationals meeting i can understand big budget teams having semi organised pits (as most do already) with some form of display but the guys out back twisting their own spanners aint gonna do it, or they will do it at the expense of bike and riders preparation.

if you think the garages make any difference your kidding yourself. Go to the lady wigram meet a ruapuna. or the skope classic, both big meets. The best you get from aussie f5000 teams is a small banner telling u a tiny snippet about the car. the garages are a mess and its bloody awesome. Why??? Cause theres a show going on thats worth a penny. not cause theres a pretty plastic wall or the mechanic cleaned his overalls.

an ugly lady in a nice dress is still and ugly lady.

[Clivoris]

FFS sake guys. are you going RACING or designing a womans lingerie shop.

nationals meeting i can understand big budget teams having semi organised pits (as most do already) with some form of display but the guys out back twisting their own spanners aint gonna do it, or they will do it at the expense of bike and riders preparation.

if you think the garages make any difference your kidding yourself. Go to the lady wigram meet a ruapuna. or the skope classic, both big meets. The best you get from aussie f5000 teams is a small banner telling u a tiny snippet about the car. the garages are a mess and its bloody awesome. Why??? Cause theres a show going on thats worth a penny. not cause theres a pretty plastic wall or the mechanic cleaned his overalls.

an ugly lady in a nice dress is still and ugly lady.

Thanks for the constructive input. How does it harm you if some of us decide to improve the presentation at the track? How does it harm anything?

[lostinflyz]

Thanks for the constructive input. How does it harm you if some of us decide to improve the presentation at the track? How does it harm anything?

i meant not to put down. im not arguing the harm, but does it add anything. if you feel this is wat needs doing, do it. i merely presented my own opinion.

[mikeey01]

Whoops, I see where I went wrong in my previous post...
I hadn't listed them in any order.

I'm asking..... Can the present problems be put down to any one of these?

So I ask again...

What is your take on the real problem?
a. Lack of competitors
b. Lack on Sponsors
c. Lack of Spectators

[Brian d marge]

Churr.:apint: I've seen the plastic stuff that is the same as what the real estate signs are made of. Durable and easy to print on. My ideas aren't as ambitious as those in the pictures. It's all on once I hit F2 though.:lol:

there you go ..just nick a few real estate signs ... ....

and to those who say looking good isn't important ........

yes......... it doesn't make the bike go faster , but it does attract the money.... Racing in some country's is a business , with large cash flows ... and Dell boys three wheeler doesn't cut it

Stephen

[Biggles08]

Trev - this is not aimed at you - rather it provided a good wider context for the wider subject. I just used your quote to open it out!! Though as an aside given the series of annual activities (something like 8 events at Puke this year, more at the buckets, Ellerslie Christmas parade, ongoing rider training, open every Thursday night in their own club rooms, videos, quiz evenings, inter club bbq's, involvement with Paeroa at an operational level) I'm a little lost by the "hibernation" comment.

Anyway, for wider amusement, introspection, whatever, here's some thoughts to think about:

Oxfords definition of "club" is (apart from those in relation things for hitting other things is " association of persons meeting periodically for shared activity"

I think many people see themselves divorced from the orgainsations they actually belong too. ie the AMCC, VMCC, Upper frankton CB500 cross dressers owners group, whatever. Ie there is an us and them mentality, with the expectation that the club "delivers to me" the stuff I want, but they don't actually see themslves as being part of it or making some of it happen. The strong clubs are the ones that the members have this shared mindset.

Essentially the riders ARE the club. It's not someone else, it's not an organisation or business I just source a product from (like say MOBIL). The key two words in the description above is "shared activity"

The club is not the committee members, IT IS THE WHOLE MEMBERSHIP. As has been previously stated here in this topic and others by various posters (Clivoris, SVS, PeteJ, Whitetrash are some I can think of) the clubs are usually hurting for man power to do this stuff. I guess you get out what you put in?

I see many ideas expoused here, good and bad. But you talk closely to many club officials they have these ideas thrown at them all the time (and about every 5 years, the all come around again) usually as "feeback" but essentially "opinion". But it all boils down in many cases to talk only.

The way forward? Opinion and feedback is all well and good, but it actually needs to translate into 2 other things to make any changes long term:
1) Bring a solution Ie xyz is the problem, but if we do it this way, the problem won't exist because abc will happen
2) bring man power to make it happen. Most of this stuff all takes time, epecially the promotional side. It also costs an awful lot of money. If you read AMCN and in particular Ken Wootton's monthly column he has been hammering away about organisation vs promotion. Some clubs are very good at orgainsing and running a meeting. They may not be promoting it however. I guess the difference is resource available. Financial or human.

The existing resource is always running out as people come and go from the committees that actually make stuff like race meetings happen. They don't get paid and they try to have a life also. Who will be stepping up when they go? Many of them feel bound to stay because so few people actually generally get involved. The poor suckers there are usually trapped, it's not that they won't let go, it's who is there to hand the reigns to? Many club Annual AGM's barely make a quorum, let alone have people fighting for a position at the "big table".

Remember they then have to answer to the same members I talk about above who have the us and them mentality as to why they lost $10,000 running a race meeting and get caned for it when the membership fees or whatver go up because the club can no longer afford to subsidise the operational costs and come and go requirements from accumulated funds.

Hampton: hmmm, I see many people advising cost being an issue to attending race meetings. Hamtpon hire costs I believe will be rather more expensive than the existing circuits which will only make the racing more expensive again, plus the number of people to run an event there is considerably larger also (again more cost in terms of "koha", lunches etc). How many clubs would be able to afford to run there regularly if their club series event w sthe price of the Ntionals are now? How much will the Nationals be if run there? It may be a great place when finished and I'm really looking forward to having a play there like everyone else, but at what $ cost?

Other quotes This one Mystic 13: "I notice on the list of motorcycle websites over at MNZ there is no AMCC. So what's going on between the two?"

There are 80-90 afiliated clubs in NZ. The list of links to the clubs is approx 15 long. There must be about 65 that are missing.

Problem? None I'd say. Just one of ther overworked, unpaid volunteers from the AMCC probably doesn't know it's not up or if they do, they have more urgent things they have to deal with like running a club and creating a national round, running a club series, multiple training days, Paeroa etc that they do every year for the members.

Maybe they have asked and MNZ haven't done it (waiting for the next set of work in that area of the website?)- who knows? Is it really an issue? Is there any inference you are alluding to??

Malcy you make some very valid points that I agree with.....BUT.....there is always a but....to put another slant/perspective on what you have said here we need to remember that some (probably the majority) of these club members like me are here to race and that was 100% the reson of joining a club. For me personally, I am a member of AMCC for no other reason than MNZ said I had to join 'a club' to get my race licence. I have no attachment to my club appart from this. All this being said, I would love to have some personal attachment to AMCC which would give me some sense of pride and involvment but this simply is not the case.

Now I can only talk from personal experience here, but as a Noobie racer I have found the powers that be in AMCC are very intolerant to new suggestions of improvement. I'm not talking massive projects here, more so small 'tweaks' to make things run smoother and more effeciently. I have suggested transponders are made mandaory at every race meeting but was told club members wouldn't like the extra cost...BOLLOCKS! I am a poor club member with no spare cash in my back pocket and would happily pay extra for compulsory transponder hirage if the fiasco that was AMCC Round 2 was never repeated again (long story...not for here). When you are paying around $85 for a race day meet (plus tires, fuel/oil etc), an extra $30 to ensure accurate laps is a no brainer).

My point is, I added relevant input that needed very little time to implement and was immediatly confronted with irrelevant, illogical, inaccurate block walls as soon as I suggested a possible solution (which I still believe is the answer) thus making me feel 'detached' as a club member. It seems that it has become a viscious cycle of complaining club members and defending club managers that has got to a point where sanity fails to prevail.

Heres my take on it (and I'm not wanting to insult anyone here), I believe it may be time for a move to 'change the guard' at AMCC stratigy level. I'm not suggesting the entire management is kicked to the curb because they do a great job at organizing events etc....I'm saying new blood 'appears' to be required in the stratigic, directional level of the club...new thinking is required for the future. Surely there are people currently in AMCC that have been involved for quite some time biting at the bit to get more say and involvment in this area that could be looked at?

As a racer, I agree with a lot of what has been said on here regarding 'looking professional' and have been doing my best to do exactly that. To be a professional race team, you need to act like one and part of that is in the appearence of both your machine and pit area. We as riders do need to lift our game and look sharper. I'm desperately trying to get a sponsor on board at the moment for myself and another rider with a similar concept to what Chop and Ed have done...its a hard sell but I believe it is the responsibility of us racers to do this side of things to support whatever club we belong to. I'm not interested in organizing the race meets and marshalling etc that other AMCC club members do a great job at...thats not my skill set, I want to race! I do appreciate all the hard work AMCC club members do for me and I'm really not trying to have a go at any of you...I'm talking direction here...AMCC head needs a new direction implimented for things to slowly get better. Change is good....in fact it happens all the time and seems AMCC havent moved forward with some changes that they should have (my race numbers are perfectly legible and I am not changing them out of principle!).

Biggles08

[Clivoris]

Whoops, I see where I went wrong in my previous post...
I hadn't listed them in any order.

I'm asking..... Can the present problems be put down to any one of these?

So I ask again...

What is your take on the real problem?
a. Lack of competitors
b. Lack on Sponsors
c. Lack of Spectators

They are all connected. One leads to the other...to the other etc. Also, in my opinion, worrying about what started the cycle is far less important than thinking about how to break it.

[sinfull]

Whoops, I see where I went wrong in my previous post...
I hadn't listed them in any order.

I'm asking..... Can the present problems be put down to any one of these?

So I ask again...

What is your take on the real problem?
a. Lack of competitors
b. Lack on Sponsors
c. Lack of Spectators
My take on things is b = a which = c
someone was saying the car racing attracts the crowds, yes but half the spectators there, are there to see carnage and they usually do !
No one in bike racing wants carnage, no one ! So half the spectators may not show up cause there is a lack of crash flips or rolls !

I say again give em something to see along with the quality racing that is there already ! A lunch time show maybe, don't have to be big to start with !
Tony ? You into some wheely practice ? Who else is into some stunt practice ? Won't take long for the word to get out and we all know what show offs riders are, ppl will be queing up to do some stunts, and in turn the spectators will hear of it and come (albeit with a morbid curiosity)
Would the commitee be into something like that for a vic round Clive ?
I for one would put a yellow vest on for i donno, crowd controll, carry an extinguisher, whatever ! So the race marshalls can have a break from their posts !

b = a lack of corporate sponsers for the little guys makes it hard to attend many events apart from their local right ?
Why not make an example out of what Ed and Chop have ? Ed has been pumping LG since they came on board for him and good on them ! Their Pit looks good because of corporate sponsership !
I for one will put my hand up and lend these guys a hand to market LG (as best i can) Why not make LG go "wow cool" . At the same time other corporates may go "wow look at LG's name out there at these bike races, mmmmm not bad advertising" Next time some sap like me walks in to their office and asks for a lil help, the name LG will flash up in their head and they might say yeah we'll help !

c = Who can make up some A frame signs like Phill suggested, Half a doz signs (i for one will find room for one in my van to drop at a strategic intersection)
ED, Chop ? Good chance to get LGs name up on the corner of the boards Guys !!!

LG
SUPERBIKES

---------->>>>>>>>>>

[malcy25]

Malcy you make some very valid points that I agree with.....BUT.....there is always a but....to put another slant/perspective on what you have said here we need to remember that some (probably the majority) of these club members like me are here to race and that was 100% the reson of joining a club. For me personally, I am a member of AMCC for no other reason than MNZ said I had to join 'a club' to get my race licence. I have no attachment to my club appart from this. All this being said, I would love to have some personal attachment to AMCC which would give me some sense of pride and involvment but this simply is not the case.

Now I can only talk from personal experience here, but as a Noobie racer I have found the powers that be in AMCC are very intolerant to new suggestions of improvement. I'm not talking massive projects here, more so small 'tweaks' to make things run smoother and more effeciently. I have suggested transponders are made mandaory at every race meeting but was told club members wouldn't like the extra cost...BOLLOCKS! I am a poor club member with no spare cash in my back pocket and would happily pay extra for compulsory transponder hirage if the fiasco that was AMCC Round 2 was never repeated again (long story...not for here). When you are paying around $85 for a race day meet (plus tires, fuel/oil etc), an extra $30 to ensure accurate laps is a no brainer).

My point is, I added relevant input that needed very little time to implement and was immediatly confronted with irrelevant, illogical, inaccurate block walls as soon as I suggested a possible solution (which I still believe is the answer) thus making me feel 'detached' as a club member. It seems that it has become a viscious cycle of complaining club members and defending club managers that has got to a point where sanity fails to prevail.

Heres my take on it (and I'm not wanting to insult anyone here), I believe it may be time for a move to 'change the guard' at AMCC stratigy level. I'm not suggesting the entire management is kicked to the curb because they do a great job at organizing events etc....I'm saying new blood 'appears' to be required in the stratigic, directional level of the club...new thinking is required for the future. Surely there are people currently in AMCC that have been involved for quite some time biting at the bit to get more say and involvment in this area that could be looked at?

As a racer, I agree with a lot of what has been said on here regarding 'looking professional' and have been doing my best to do exactly that. To be a professional race team, you need to act like one and part of that is in the appearence of both your machine and pit area. We as riders do need to lift our game and look sharper. I'm desperately trying to get a sponsor on board at the moment for myself and another rider with a similar concept to what Chop and Ed have done...its a hard sell but I believe it is the responsibility of us racers to do this side of things to support whatever club we belong to. I'm not interested in organizing the race meets and marshalling etc that other AMCC club members do a great job at...thats not my skill set, I want to race! I do appreciate all the hard work AMCC club members do for me and I'm really not trying to have a go at any of you...I'm talking direction here...AMCC head needs a new direction implimented for things to slowly get better. Change is good....in fact it happens all the time and seems AMCC havent moved forward with some changes that they should have (my race numbers are perfectly legible and I am not changing them out of principle!).

Biggles08

Biggles

Sorry if my reply is brief - I have a full day at work and spannering bikes at night for the nationals.

Changing of the Guard: Reread my post. I answered your comment already. There are not hoards of people champing at the bit to have a go otherwise they would be there already It's usually a shit fight to find enough to staff the committees each year and a number of clubs have had to cancel and reset their AGM's because not enough people bothered to turn up. They are all too busy only getting their licence and buggering off again. You have just reconfirmed my comment about peoples involvement re join the club for a race licence. I suppose being blunt, you get out of it what you put in. You join the club for a licence, and do nothing else, should you expect much in return?

There are too many people at too many clubs around the country who sit on the sidelines saying do I want you to do this for me...no, do this for me....hang, no I want YOu to do this for me.

Re timing Equipment - Scrivy has already comments elsewhere on the accuracy of the Mark Time System and the cost effectiveness (He was the back up timing system for the Hamilton 400 so he know's his stuff, plus I know riders who have on board timing systems and cannot believe how accurately they match). I fail to understand what your underlying issue is. What exactly would a transponder system provide over the Services that Mark Time does? Regards the cost, weren't you saying a while back that you can't afford to race, yet now another $30 each meeting is fine?

Intolerance: Reread my comment about ideas rolling around every 5 years. Many have been tried and discarded a few times. Not saying there are not new ideas. But I'm sure the guys running events would like to see them.

I think more riders need to (wo)man up and actually get involved. Many of the road race committee at the AMCC I see are racers already so you can sit on both sides.

But until riders actually step up and start actually get involved in the hands on management and direction of the sport at local and whatever other level, and not just sit on the sidelines, nothing will change. Forum comment is just forum comment, it doesn't drive action until someone actually does something. This not an only AMCC problem this can and will be played out all over the country at any number of active clubs.

Clubs are like Governments which in NZ are a democracy - but you get what you nominate and vote for. You want to change the guard? By all means, I'm sure you will be most welcomed if you turn up at the AGM in June and ask to be nominated for a position on a committee, I doubt there will be an issue to find a seconder.

Your race numbers: Get over it. Is an MNZ rule. It exists for amnay reasons. But I'm running out of time to answer sorry.

By the way, whilst I'm a member of the AMCC (and 3 other clubs from memory), I'm not on any committee with the AMCC or any of the others. But I have been and I have seen the other side and dealt with prima donna riders. I was one of those too until I stopped racing and did a few years on a committee helping. Saw a whole different world....

[Tony.OK]

Tony ? You into some wheely practice ?

Now Bill you should know that wheelies are neither big nor clever:bleh:

Promoting such dangerous behaviour only leads to trouble...........or constantly getting told off hahaaa:doh:

I remember 5 or so years ago going to my 1st race as a spectator, it was a PMCC round I think on the old Taupo track.......they had a wheelie/burnout display in the lunch break by any racer that wanted to show off.
During one burnout some chicks hangin over the fence liftin her top up to show the racers her headlights........................................ ..................................we need more of that!!!
:laugh::laugh:

[Shaun]

VMCC has been asking for people to step up and sort this thing for years! The ideas aren't new. But when you only have 2 or 3 core people organising the series (who all have full time jobs) then some other people are needed to set up the 'event' side of things. Working till 2am just to get the actual racing setup and late entries sorted was enough for me to throw in the towel.

When I was secretary I tried getting shops onboard for merchandising and display stands but see how many actually turned up and ran a stand? None. Tried getting people to put out signs the day before "Motorbike racing this way -->" sort of thing, but again real life and real jobs got in the way.

The ideas are there. The clubs have the experience and knowledge with running the racing side of things. If you want to promote an event - make it easier on yourself and rock on up to a club and offer to do it. I'm pretty sure VMCC would jump at the chance. (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showpost.php?p=1942142&postcount=4)



Have some one from the club contact me mate, I may be able to help now that I am not a racer myself any more, and do have a lot of experience with this sport, and lots of passion for it, it may even be usefull towards a buisness marketing degree I have started

[Biggles08]

Biggles

Sorry if my reply is brief - I have a full day at work and spannering bikes at night for the nationals.

Changing of the Guard: Reread my post. I answered your comment already. There are not hoards of people champing at the bit to have a go otherwise they would be there already It's usually a shit fight to find enough to staff the committees each year and a number of clubs have had to cancel and reset their AGM's because not enough people bothered to turn up. They are all too busy only getting their licence and buggering off again. You have just reconfirmed my comment about peoples involvement re join the club for a race licence. I suppose being blunt, you get out of it what you put in. You join the club for a licence, and do nothing else, should you expect much in return?

There are too many people at too many clubs around the country who sit on the sidelines saying do I want you to do this for me...no, do this for me....hang, no I want YOu to do this for me.

Re timing Equipment - Scrivy has already comments elsewhere on the accuracy of the Mark Time System and the cost effectiveness (He was the back up timing system for the Hamilton 400 so he know's his stuff, plus I know riders who have on board timing systems and cannot believe how accurately they match). I fail to understand what your underlying issue is. What exactly would a transponder system provide over the Services that Mark Time does? Regards the cost, weren't you saying a while back that you can't afford to race, yet now another $30 each meeting is fine?

Intolerance: Reread my comment about ideas rolling around every 5 years. Many have been tried and discarded a few times. Not saying there are not new ideas. But I'm sure the guys running events would like to see them.

I think more riders need to (wo)man up and actually get involved. Many of the road race committee at the AMCC I see are racers already so you can sit on both sides.

But until riders actually step up and start actually get involved in the hands on management and direction of the sport at local and whatever other level, and not just sit on the sidelines, nothing will change. Forum comment is just forum comment, it doesn't drive action until someone actually does something. This not an only AMCC problem this can and will be played out all over the country at any number of active clubs.

Clubs are like Governments which in NZ are a democracy - but you get what you nominate and vote for. You want to change the guard? By all means, I'm sure you will be most welcomed if you turn up at the AGM in June and ask to be nominated for a position on a committee, I doubt there will be an issue to find a seconder.

Your race numbers: Get over it. Is an MNZ rule. It exists for amnay reasons. But I'm running out of time to answer sorry.

By the way, whilst I'm a member of the AMCC (and 3 other clubs from memory), I'm not on any committee with the AMCC or any of the others. But I have been and I have seen the other side and dealt with prima donna riders. I was one of those too until I stopped racing and did a few years on a committee helping. Saw a whole different world....

lol....well that was quite the reply Malcy for not having any time :bleh:.

I guess you may be right in that no one is 'biting at the bit' to take over but I'm pretty sure this is due to people throwing thier hands up in the air and saying "bugger this I'm off!"

I'm not 100% sure if your calling me a pre maddona or not but I hope not. My post was supposed to be supportive for the future rather than dwelling on the mistakes that have been done in the past. I wasn't wanting to raise the issue of time keeping again it was merely an example of how I felt about the response I got when trying to give my input directly to AMCC.

At the end of the day I'm not going to appologize for how I feel about my involvment in AMCC or lack thereof...READ MY POST AGAIN I only joined to get my license...and in fact, I may join another club after my membership expires...thats my choice and perogative. Instead of writing me off as another whining rider who doesn't want to get involved, how about listening to me and trying to keep me as a member (not you personally but I'm refering to the general attitude of AMCC that I have experienced).

I will lay my cards on the table too....I have absolutley no axe to grind with AMCC prior to joining. I've got nothing to gain from spinning lies or bad mouthing them. Everything I have suggested has been in 'club spirit' yet why now am I so annoyed at them???? Thats the question AMCC should be addressing as opposed to rolling thier eyes up and ignoring their members.

I won't buy your whole "If you don't like it, get in and change it" argument because thats unfortunately not the way the modern world works. As I see it, some people are cut out for organizing shit and getting people together to come up with the goods for well run race days....I'm not one of those people Malcy...In fact, I would go as far to say I would probably find it hard to organize a piss up in a brewry! Should that negate my opinion when it comes to suggestions to improve???? I think not. As you mentioned in todays world, democracy is the ruling form...imagine if EVERYONE who was unhappy with the Government decided they could do it better and entered government....I think 122 MP's is more than enough thanks! lol

I realize thats an extreme example but the principle is the same...we have club leaders, club organizers and managers and I'm not whining about any of them....get that point...they do a great job and I don't envy them...but for you to suggest that anyone who is unhappy with anything should 'put up or shut up' is IMHO ludicrous!

Remember the reason any motorcycle club exists is for the motorcyclists....and because of the MNZ rules the mojority (possibly anyway...at least for me in this case) of them are members merely so they can hold a race license....rightly or wrongly this is the case Malcy so complaining to people like me about not being involved more is wasted energy....how about listening instead and giving me reasons why my suggestions are not fesible (once again not you personally rather AMCC management) rather than slagging off PMCC because I mentioned I enjoyed PMCC R1 so much better than AMCC R2 - Solely because they had transponders!!!

I'll respond to your comment about afforability of the hirage, but if you read my post again I'm sure you will understand why I would be happy to pay $30 more for accurate times. You try telling half the clubmans feild in AMCC R2 that the timing was accurate...some guys had DNS, DNF (when they did) and apparently some crashed and got lapped but yet still bet people who didn't crash???? I had pole position in clubmans but started 3 from the back of both Pre 89's and Clubmans?????? Go figure that Malcy! Did I feel like I got my moneys worth that day...Absolutely NOT!:spanking:
Most of these problems would have disappeared had we had transponders...NO QUESTION!

Its not a matter of posting suggestions on here and leaving it at that I realize, but I have told AMCC what I think and have basically been told it won't work with no explanation as to why. I got told riders wouldn't front up with the extra cost....but hang on...I'm a rider and I would. All the entrys into PMCC R1 did (And it was on a tiny track at taupo - Track 3) and it was a full field....so nope...not a good enough reason...give me another! I believe their is some politicing going on between AMCC and the guys who hire the transponders but thats just a feeling I get from some comments that have been made...but I would be VERY annoyed if that were the case because that directly affects my racing.

Anyway, got to go do some tinkering of myself for the Nats this weekend...come say hi if you get the chance Malcy;)

Biggles08

[scrivy]

I remember 5 or so years ago going to my 1st race as a spectator, it was a PMCC round I think on the old Taupo track.......they had a wheelie/burnout display in the lunch break by any racer that wanted to show off.
During one burnout some chicks hangin over the fence liftin her top up to show the racers her headlights........................................ ..................................we need more of that!!!
:laugh::laugh:

I understand it was the dodgy buggars that run the Taupo Road Race Spectacular back in '04........... :devil2:
It was actually the girlfriend of one of the racers!!!!! Lance Love??
Was a laugh though........
er, wouldn't see that happen again though......:nono:

[Tony.OK]

I understand it was the dodgy buggars that run the Taupo Road Race Spectacular back in '04........... :devil2:
It was actually the girlfriend of one of the racers!!!!! Lance Love??
Was a laugh though........
er, wouldn't see that happen again though......:nono:

Buggar...................I've been trying do do wheelies all season hoping I'd see some jigglies somewhere........................best I've done so far is seen Frenchy's chicken legs:doh: instead of these (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=105081&d=1220937433)

[malcy25]

lol....well that was quite the reply Malcy for not having any time :bleh:.

I guess you may be right in that no one is 'biting at the bit' to take over but I'm pretty sure this is due to people throwing thier hands up in the air and saying "bugger this I'm off!"

I'm not 100% sure if your calling me a pre maddona or not but I hope not. My post was supposed to be supportive for the future rather than dwelling on the mistakes that have been done in the past. I wasn't wanting to raise the issue of time keeping again it was merely an example of how I felt about the response I got when trying to give my input directly to AMCC.

At the end of the day I'm not going to appologize for how I feel about my involvment in AMCC or lack thereof...READ MY POST AGAIN I only joined to get my license...and in fact, I may join another club after my membership expires...thats my choice and perogative. Instead of writing me off as another whining rider who doesn't want to get involved, how about listening to me and trying to keep me as a member (not you personally but I'm refering to the general attitude of AMCC that I have experienced).

I will lay my cards on the table too....I have absolutley no axe to grind with AMCC prior to joining. I've got nothing to gain from spinning lies or bad mouthing them. Everything I have suggested has been in 'club spirit' yet why now am I so annoyed at them???? Thats the question AMCC should be addressing as opposed to rolling thier eyes up and ignoring their members.

I won't buy your whole "If you don't like it, get in and change it" argument because thats unfortunately not the way the modern world works. As I see it, some people are cut out for organizing shit and getting people together to come up with the goods for well run race days....I'm not one of those people Malcy...In fact, I would go as far to say I would probably find it hard to organize a piss up in a brewry! Should that negate my opinion when it comes to suggestions to improve???? I think not. As you mentioned in todays world, democracy is the ruling form...imagine if EVERYONE who was unhappy with the Government decided they could do it better and entered government....I think 122 MP's is more than enough thanks! lol

I realize thats an extreme example but the principle is the same...we have club leaders, club organizers and managers and I'm not whining about any of them....get that point...they do a great job and I don't envy them...but for you to suggest that anyone who is unhappy with anything should 'put up or shut up' is IMHO ludicrous!

Remember the reason any motorcycle club exists is for the motorcyclists....and because of the MNZ rules the mojority (possibly anyway...at least for me in this case) of them are members merely so they can hold a race license....rightly or wrongly this is the case Malcy so complaining to people like me about not being involved more is wasted energy....how about listening instead and giving me reasons why my suggestions are not fesible (once again not you personally rather AMCC management) rather than slagging off PMCC because I mentioned I enjoyed PMCC R1 so much better than AMCC R2 - Solely because they had transponders!!!

I'll respond to your comment about afforability of the hirage, but if you read my post again I'm sure you will understand why I would be happy to pay $30 more for accurate times. You try telling half the clubmans feild in AMCC R2 that the timing was accurate...some guys had DNS, DNF (when they did) and apparently some crashed and got lapped but yet still bet people who didn't crash???? I had pole position in clubmans but started 3 from the back of both Pre 89's and Clubmans?????? Go figure that Malcy! Did I feel like I got my moneys worth that day...Absolutely NOT!:spanking:
Most of these problems would have disappeared had we had transponders...NO QUESTION!

Its not a matter of posting suggestions on here and leaving it at that I realize, but I have told AMCC what I think and have basically been told it won't work with no explanation as to why. I got told riders wouldn't front up with the extra cost....but hang on...I'm a rider and I would. All the entrys into PMCC R1 did (And it was on a tiny track at taupo - Track 3) and it was a full field....so nope...not a good enough reason...give me another! I believe their is some politicing going on between AMCC and the guys who hire the transponders but thats just a feeling I get from some comments that have been made...but I would be VERY annoyed if that were the case because that directly affects my racing.

Anyway, got to go do some tinkering of myself for the Nats this weekend...come say hi if you get the chance Malcy;)

Biggles08

I'm sure we'll have divergent though processes till the end....

if I get a chance between keeping 2 bikes running I may come find you - I can type fast, but talking face to face is easier.

[svs]

Have some one from the club contact me mate, I may be able to help now that I am not a racer myself any more, and do have a lot of experience with this sport, and lots of passion for it, it may even be usefull towards a buisness marketing degree I have started

Hey Clivoris - give shaun a call!

[scrivy]

Buggar...................I've been trying do do wheelies all season hoping I'd see some jigglies somewhere........................best I've done so far is seen Frenchy's chicken legs:doh: instead of ......

Er........... yeah, well, um, OK.
I think Frenchys legs are firmer........................ :laugh:

[cowpoos]

Taupo has also been used by AMCC, but the logistics of running a meeting there proved too expensive for an Auckland based club. .

VMCC do it...from wellington...so what AMCC excuse?? disorganised?? lazy??

and AMCC have to be the most pathetic excuse for a race series in NZ. they should be ashamed of what they achieve!

[malcy25]

VMCC do it...from wellington...so what AMCC excuse?? disorganised?? lazy??

and AMCC have to be the most pathetic excuse for a race series in NZ. they should be ashamed of what they achieve!

yawn...not like that subject hasn't been done to death with appropriate responses for the last few years. :Offtopic:

I guess I'd want to escape Wellie for a weekend in Taupo regularly too if I lived there (and I have lived there... and I did escape) :devil2:

[Clivoris]

Have some one from the club contact me mate, I may be able to help now that I am not a racer myself any more, and do have a lot of experience with this sport, and lots of passion for it, it may even be usefull towards a buisness marketing degree I have started


I say again give em something to see along with the quality racing that is there already ! A lunch time show maybe, don't have to be big to start with !
Tony ? You into some wheely practice ? Who else is into some stunt practice ? Won't take long for the word to get out and we all know what show offs riders are, ppl will be queing up to do some stunts, and in turn the spectators will hear of it and come (albeit with a morbid curiosity)
Would the commitee be into something like that for a vic round Clive ?
I for one would put a yellow vest on for i donno, crowd controll, carry an extinguisher, whatever ! So the race marshalls can have a break from their posts !

c = Who can make up some A frame signs like Phill suggested, Half a doz signs (i for one will find room for one in my van to drop at a strategic intersection)
ED, Chop ? Good chance to get LGs name up on the corner of the boards Guys !!!

This rocks.:Punk:
Hey Shaun, Will be in touch mate. Any energy you have to put into promoting the Actrix Winter Series would be more than welcome. We have a few adhoc things on the boil at the moment so I will try and organise my thinking and e-mail you.
Bill, if you want to run with this idea and take responsibility for it I think it could be a goer. Like everything else it will need to go through the committee. Work on a bit of a plan that will give the committee confidence that it's reasonably controlled and safe. Stuff I'm thinking of is one bike at a time stunting. How many marshals required? Ensuring indemnities are signed. Fill your boots mate and find a sponsor who might provide a prize for best stunt. i'm guessing this is all weather permitting stuff, but maybe grudge sprints down the front straight might be the go at some meetings with stunts every second one? Lunch time track sessions for a limited number of road bikes at some meetings?
Like I said it will need to be discussed at committee tues 17th.
Clive

[sinfull]

This rocks.:Punk:
Hey Shaun, Will be in touch mate. Any energy you have to put into promoting the Actrix Winter Series would be more than welcome. We have a few adhoc things on the boil at the moment so I will try and organise my thinking and e-mail you.
Bill, if you want to run with this idea and take responsibility for it I think it could be a goer. Like everything else it will need to go through the committee. Work on a bit of a plan that will give the committee confidence that it's reasonably controlled and safe. Stuff I'm thinking of is one bike at a time stunting. How many marshals required? Ensuring indemnities are signed. Fill your boots mate and find a sponsor who might provide a prize for best stunt. i'm guessing this is all weather permitting stuff, but maybe grudge sprints down the front straight might be the go at some meetings with stunts every second one? Lunch time track sessions for a limited number of road bikes at some meetings?
Like I said it will need to be discussed at committee tues 17th.
Clive
17th haha I just told Ed he's worse than my Mrs when it comes to "i want it now" !
Ok !
Fill ya boots ? Is that like shitin ya leathers ? It's working already !

[sinfull]

They are all connected. One leads to the other...to the other etc. Also, in my opinion, worrying about what started the cycle is far less important than thinking about how to break it.
Pissing matches !!!!!!! We could put a ring up under the stands aye ???

POSERS THE LOT OF YA !

Like Clive says in his post above BREAK IT ! Since then its turned into a pissing match ! Not what Shaun intended with the thread, not for the better of all who would want the sport to grow ! Or would yaall rather see this thread in PD after everybodies finished pissing as high as they can ?

Ya all got balls or ya wouldn't be racin, or ya wouldn't be readin this !
But No point having them balls if there's noone there to see just how BIG they are !
Spectators bring new blood to the sport yeah ?
How many racers out there have ppl they could have rung to come and watch them race (even if they're running mid field to last in most races) BUT DON"T HAVE THE BALLS TO CALL THEM AND INVITE THEM TO COME AND WATCH ?

I just said Ok to clives responce, Wow cool, but no idea ! But the hands up and i'll give it a crack !

Need help now as realistically my experience is in motivation !
IE: put me in a room full of ppl and after twenty minutes i'll have em rushing outside looking for eskimoes to sell them fridges to !
BUT
It'd be really cool if everyone were to brainstorm ideas to Break it ! rather than piss in pockets and put down one club or another !

I'm in the wellington region and a member of the vic club ! yeah ya prob never seen me at a series (i like to keep a low profile, pass the tui) Yeah i am older than most of ya ! Yeah ya prob are faster than me ! But My Balls are bigger and i can piss higher than all of ya ! Always will be that way, sorry !! Excited yet ?
Well then, put those fuckin sealskin jackets on and come up with some ideas to atract some eskimoes, cause there's some real COOL sleds to be seen blastin round in an upcoming series's ! Mines one of em !! I WANT PPL TO SEE ME !
DONT YOU ?

[scracha]

Some good suggestions flowing...BUT. Shaun's main idea of having a full time ROAD RACE promoter/co-ordinator is likely to be the only way most of these ideas will happen.

I'm sorry to say that I can't see this happening any time soon through MNZ but I'd love to be proven wrong.

My tuppenceworth suggestions below are based on the fact that most spectators these days view sporting events on their telly or computer. :-

A more co-ordinated website (yes, it'll cost money) with rider profiles, including their photos, a short bio, bike photos, link to their own website and most importantly, sponsors.

Task someone with putting together videos of the race action. This will mean shelling out for cameras (or perhaps co-ordinating the existing video footage a lot of riders have) and paying someone quite a few beer tokens to edit the video. Bung on youtube, embed on above webbysite. Flog DVD(s) at end of season (and during next season to spectators) . You never know, highlights may hit the telly screen. Excellent for riders and excellent for sponsors.

Bung riders photos and videos on a webbysite and I guarantee they'll instantly improve their appearance and spend a bit more time promoting their sponsor's logos.

Umm.........as usual VMCC will probably have to lead by example.

[cowpoos]

as usual VMCC will probably have to lead by example.


It is the most popular series in NZ...potetial is enormous if a few more bright people join in and help the already bright buggers currently taking the club in what seems to be a very good direction race wise for compeditors...

[Bronza]

someone was saying the car racing attracts the crowds, yes but half the spectators there, are there to see carnage and they usually do !
No one in bike racing wants carnage, no one ! So half the spectators may not show up cause there is a lack of crash flips or rolls !

LG
SUPERBIKES

---------->>>>>>>>>>

Haven't you ever seen me racing??? 2 totalled gixsers in my garage says there is plenty of carnage!!

Love Kicking zebra ;)

[suzuki21]

An independant promoter would be disastrous, it will come down to money making only. Sprint boats done similar with Promosports in the early nineties and they done nice things like only have meetings in Auckland because of the population, and they even done it in competion with other events run by volunteers.

[Shaun]

Shaun
Hardcore Biker
♂
Bike: parts
Location: New Plymouth
Posts: 3,179

NZ road racing in serious trouble

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PLAN made and Posted out in 2004,and look where we have gotten to already, perhaps I should have tried to do this 10 years ago.





Road racing coordinator/Promoter- This is a copy of a letter that I wrote and forwarded out to ALL registered Road Race License holders in 2004 the MNZ had a postal address for


I ONLY RECEIVED about 40 replies from over 150 letters!!!

Please take the time to read and respond. Your comments are extremely important and with out your feed back it makes it hard to make changes that will benefit our racing and enhance the future of our sport.

I am proposing that the motorcycle fraternity Employ our OWN full time promoter/coordinator, until all responses are returned and sifted through the full time job description is not possible to out line here but I will include what I would like this person to be doing.

Job Description

Co-ordination of all clubs for the race format, and information for riders, and communication with MNZ.
Promotional work with the media,series sponsors, importers,clubs,MNZ etc.
Group purchasing of race products making our purchase price “lower”
already giving us a return on our investment!

Who to employ

I suggest that we nominate 2 riders reps from each class and let this group go through all the resumes and make a choice.

How to pay this person

This is where I need you to all think long and hard about OUR racing and OUR sport and what it means to YOU?

I propose that all MNZ Road racing license holders invest $250-00 each .69 cents per day per year!!!!!

145 people x $250-00 = $ 36-250, I had a company that was prepared to invest $5000 as well- Total $ 41-250

$41-250 paid to a promoter as a base salary with an agreed percentage of additional funds collected by this person on OUR behalf.

This system will allow this person sell sell sell and make more income for them self, as well as promoting our sport professionaly and encouraging sponsors to invest there money in OUR sport

I realise this may seem to simple, but some of the best things in life are simple!!

90% of replies AGREED with it.


So how do we MAKE THIS happen?

The only way I can see racing going forward, is for the planning/coorination of it all coming into the 21st centenary and very very quickly
__________________
WE LOST! Thanks for your work Paul S, but us the RIDERS did not want help ourselves it seems

[Shaun]

140 views, and NO comments, WOW amazing how the riders go quite when they are challenged back about lifting there own game up to the sky

[Sensei]

Sad to see dude , you are trying very hard to raise this sports profile etc .

[Robert Taylor]

140 views, and NO comments, WOW amazing how the riders go quite when they are challenged back about lifting there own game up to the sky

Just read it, if it can come to fruition we ( CKT ) would undertake put up $500 per annum and encourage other businesses directly involved with supporting the road racing industry to follow our lead. If there is an insistence that we join an affiliated club and thence pay a sub to MNZ then no problem.

[cowpoos]

140 views, and NO comments, WOW amazing how the riders go quite when they are challenged back about lifting there own game up to the sky
I think you have posted this a few times now shaun...that possibly why know one is repling??

[riffer]

I think you have posted this a few times now shaun...that possibly why know one is repling??

Well it's either that or that the majority of readers are people like me who are interesting in NZ Motorcycle Racing, but aren't active participants.

Or like me, they're all shit broke too. :weep:

[evol mas]

enough talking!!! lets start doing somthing!!! wata we gota do to get something actuly on paper and out there so we can start geting some money coming or some one appointed ect!!!
whata we gotta do????

[k14]

I think you have posted this a few times now shaun...that possibly why know one is repling??
Yes it is becoming a little repetitive.

I would quite happily commit to paying a sum of that size but in all honesty I am not convinced as of yet that there is any benefit in doing so. There needs to be a more complete document/proposal to outline exactly where the money will go and what benefits will come of it. Is there someone in particular you have lined up that will take up the position?

[scuzeme]

F@#k me this subject has been well in truly thrashed out and im probably going to repeat what has been said one hundred times but in the simplest terms:

First of all i dont think theres anypoint bagging those that help organise and run meetings even if they are half arsed attempts atleast someones doing something, who else is going to do it...you?

Lifting the profile of road racing is the key to this whole thing guys.
If you lift the profile you lift the popularity, if you lift the popularity you lift the numbers of racers and inturn the numbers of spectators then the TV networks give you airplay.
Once you lift the popularity then you can garner greater revenues by way of fees gate sales and ultimately get the corporates on board that want to tap into the market being created and expanded - then the profile gets lifted again and it becomes a lovely self feeding cycle.

I and a few others formed a committe last year looking at bringing a road race back to the Wellington i myself spoke with the Wellington City and Lower Hutt City counsel representatives and just let me say this i had no negative vibes back instead there was open minded interest.
The committee had also been in discussions with interested sponsers, to be honest we really needed more poeple on board that were willing to give up some serious time to get it properly off the ground.

My point is you need to raise the profile which is exactly the point Shaun was making originally, whether you agree with hiring a promoter or markting manager or some other way, we need to find the best way and all help take our sport to the new Zealand public.
Just to make the point, what was the interest in the sport like when Aaron Slight was on the world stage, was it strong here in NZ during that time? if it was, it was solely because the profile was lifted.

Profile = popularity = prosperity.


Cheers.

[FROSTY]

if it can come to fruition we ( CKT ) would undertake put up $500 per annum .
WE--Millars car (and motorcycle) Centre will match that pledge :2thumbsup

[Paul in NZ]

Please forgive the intrusion... I don't race and don't attend meetings and really, don't care too much either way...

Maybe the 'racers' need to step back a bit and look at the bigger picture.

Do the race meetings exist to;

Satisfy the needs of the racers? or Operate as a commercial enitity returning a profit to a promotor?

Think of it this way. Imagine it's a stage show. Who takes the $$ risk and reaps the rewards of a great season, the promotor! Are the actors given a choice what lines they use or parts they play - erm nope but the promotor makes a guess as to what the punters will pay to go see...

In the heyday of roadracing the promotors put on 'events' and paid good money to the riders (actors) to turn up. The riders had little say over safety etc and gradually this and society has changed, e, when was the last time you went to a speedway solo meeting yet 40 years ago it was HUGE!

The point is - IF the riders want to run a race to suit themselves then please get ready to bear the whole cost of the track, insurance, marshalls etc and stop grizzling. Much like gymnastics or bowls or (ta dah) bucket racing does do.

Otherwise, come up with something new you can sell, (screw MNZ if they won't play ball - do you really need them??) talk to a promotor and see if you can get them to get behind it. - how do you think the crusty demons manage? Do they have a competition license??? (doubt it)

You need to step back and look at the big picture - is this to satisy the user or to entice the public?

[suzuki mama]

Totally agree we all need to look at big picture .
our sport is in chaos ,thru bad decisions ,inefficent practices and ever widening gaps between the office at huntly and the Clubs, with the most lethargic Board in history when it comes to actually addressing problems.so the answer is obvious .this is an incorporated society we the members make up MNZ LETS GO TO sparc admit we have a problem ,ask them to do review .they have for other codes facing pretty much the same problems we are. lets advise our new President and Board divine intervention isnt coming and direct them as we can to obtain a Sparc review ,address problems honestly and reunite the clubs for the betterment of all riders not just each faction and get on with making Motorcycling fun ,safe and Fair .that mission statement causes some mirth around our club.just in passing what happened to online voting we heard about last year? or do we get the most confusing vote papers we got last year

[Shaun]

I think you have posted this a few times now shaun...that possibly why know one is repling??


Yes I have mate, and will keep re posting it untill people STOP whinging about the race scene and act upon healthy idea's offered to them years before the crisis we are now in:headbang:

[Shaun]

Just read it, if it can come to fruition we ( CKT ) would undertake put up $500 per annum and encourage other businesses directly involved with supporting the road racing industry to follow our lead. If there is an insistence that we join an affiliated club and thence pay a sub to MNZ then no problem.

Thanks Robert and Shane

Me ( MD Chassis Shack) Will also commit $500 Per annum:clap:

We have a Grand already, lets go:headbang:


MODS, Can We Start a "FREEZE" Promotion Link for this for other companies to add there support to the above idea?

[Shaun]

enough talking!!! lets start doing somthing!!! wata we gota do to get something actuly on paper and out there so we can start geting some money coming or some one appointed ect!!!
whata we gotta do????

Got your PM and good on you for trying to do the write thing with our sport. The thing you all can do, is go and find a company that will agree to support the ' Salary issue" for a promoter to do his /her job for us! ANd add it to the thread where CKT an MDCS have committed $500 each already

Thanks for the support

[Paul in NZ]

Shaun

With the greatest respect. If you put a promotor on salary it won't work for you or them, they need to serve a clear objective. ie are they promoting the riders diverse dreams or making the meetings popular, it might not equal the same thing. If you just want marketing expertise for existing meentings approach a marketing company but you will need a retainer + marketing budget.

A good 'promotor' of the old school will own the event and fund it (as entertainment) but don't be amazed if he/she dictates what classes will be supported. ie if flat track HD's are what the punters want, thats what a promotor will provide. Like I said, are you trying to save road racing as it is of provide a viable spectacle (road racing as it might be)

[wharfy]

Shaun

With the greatest respect. If you put a promotor on salary it won't work for you or them, they need to serve a clear objective. ie are they promoting the riders diverse dreams or making the meetings popular, it might not equal the same thing. If you just want marketing expertise for existing meentings approach a marketing company but you will need a retainer + marketing budget.

A good 'promotor' of the old school will own the event and fund it (as entertainment) but don't be amazed if he/she dictates what classes will be supported. ie if flat track HD's are what the punters want, thats what a promotor will provide. Like I said, are you trying to save road racing as it is of provide a viable spectacle (road racing as it might be)

Basically we need to turn every round of the Nationals into a Wanganui/Paeroa type EVENT maybe just make them the North Island rounds ? I think pretty much everyone who raced the Nationals raced at these (yeah, I know Stroudy didn't do Pearoa) I believe in the past they have been part of the National series.

[Paul in NZ]

Basically we need to turn every round of the Nationals into a Wanganui/Paeroa type EVENT maybe just make them the North Island rounds ? I think pretty much everyone who raced the Nationals raced at these (yeah, I know Stroudy didn't do Pearoa) I believe in the past they have been part of the National series.


Then ask yourself - why did people come to THESE events and can it be replicated???

[Shaun]

Then ask yourself - why did people come to THESE events and can it be replicated???



Because it is A road RACE, THE SAME PLACE THAT THE SPECTATORS RIDE THERE OWN BIKES

Replicated- NO way

[Kickaha]

Because it is A road RACE, THE SAME PLACE THAT THE SPECTATORS RIDE THERE OWN BIKES

Replicated- NO way

I would say more likely because they can get up so close to the action

[DEATH_INC.]

I'm gonna upset a few but here goes.....
People don't go to the racing because as a whole it's BORING to watch. As bikers we see a lot of the stuff that the general public don't, so we think it's exciting. Most of the racing I see is relatively follow-the-leader stuff....boring.
Not much you can do about that of course.....though maybe a reverse grid setup may help....(yeah I know, bad idea...safety and all)
I think a lot of spectators at Paeroa at least, just go because it's a big biker meet, rather than the racing. How many are non-bikers?
I think we need more circuits too, where are all the old street races? I know they used to do one in whangarei at least, there must have been others.
Auckland has it's own problems, the track being a major one, it may be fun if you can avoid the walls, but it doesn't lend itself well to spectating....and where the hell are the facilities? the club can't be blamed for all of it....

I guess I'm saying we need to forget (to a point) what the racers want, and look at what the public want, a good entertaining day out.

How do we do it? I really don't know.....
Is this really what we want too?
One last thing, look overseas, are the club/national ( not gp or wsbk ) meets that popular with the general public? Or do they just attract bikers from a larger pool?
I know this seems a little negative, but maybe we just need to be realistic here.....this is only a shitty little country after all.....

[FROSTY]

Then ask yourself - why did people come to THESE events and can it be replicated???

Sorry if Im droneing on But I asked EXACTLY that question 18 months ago.

I think one major problem from the point of view of attracting spectators is that we are asking the WRONG people.
The first lot of people to ask are the Joe Bloggs ROAD riders. The ones who MAYBEE go to a street meet or two or maybee don't bother.
YET youll find em in Hamilton watching the V8's today.
Once youve got the attention of a basicly receptive group then maybee the petrolheads might be convinced.

Have a look at this thread.

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?p=1294354#post1294354
Some of the answers are so basic that i just don't understand why it wasn't taken on board.

[DEATH_INC.]

I think one major problem from the point of view of attracting spectators is that we are asking the WRONG people.
The first lot of people to ask are the Joe Bloggs ROAD riders.

Yeh, that's sorta what I'm trying to say.... we need to get the bikers there first, before we have a hope in hell of getting joe public there. Read frosty's thread, it has lotsa info of what the non-racers want.
What the racers want may make it better for them, and maybe attract more racers to race, but that's not what this thread is about is it?