Redundancy is a bitch, as are other things... [Archive]

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DarkLord

3rd March 2009, 14:27

So, the story goes like this.....

I've been living in Auckland for the past 18 months or so, over which period I have gained some good work experience on my CV, learned how to ride etc etc. However, I saw a job going in Taupo, where I have wanted to live for quite a while as I know some really good people there and it is a nice city. So, I applied for the job and rode down one weekend for an interview.

I hear back a bit later and I've been offered the job, so I decide to take it, quit my job in Auckland (as the Taupo job was a done deal) and prepare to move there, as my flat was about to break up anyway so the timing worked out quite well.

I get down to Taupo and I was expecting to start on the Monday. I got a call on the Sunday afternoon saying not to worry about coming in first thing in the morning on Monday, and to wait for them to call which would be around about 11am. So, 11:30 rolls around, nothing, so I decide to call them and they drop the following bomb:

The place I was going to be working at, had on that same day been bought out by another company. Nothing had been made certain until that day, but as of that day it was a go ahead. The new owners decided that they did not want to keep on any existing staff, me included. So, I now do not have a job, although they have been very generous with a redundancy payout as I made it clear that I moved all that way to start a job that was guaranteed. There was no buts, or maybes, it was a done deal - I had a signed contract and everything. I wasn't about to move 300 fucking kilometres north on a whim.

So, I am now here looking for work. BUT, the news gets even better - my old landlord in Auckland, who turned out to be a nasty, horrible bitch (the signs were there throughout our tenancy - we should have read them) appeared happy with the place besides a bit of extra cleaning that needed to be done, which we did. There was a burn mark on the carpet in one of the rooms, but she told us she was not worried about it as effort had been made to fix it and it was no big deal as it was such old carpet anyway. She then contacted me saying that our bond was on the way, in other words, she was happy with the house.

But, the other owner of the house comes back from overseas (brilliant fucking timing, of course) and he looks at it, and he is not happy so now she is not happy either and will not give us our bond back, even though she gave me her word that it was coming. She has made every single effort to burn bridges with us ever since, and I am appalled at how she has been acting. We have never been anything other than honest with her with everything that has happened in the house and she told us we were the best tenants she has ever had, and now because this other chump doesn't like it, who we've never even met, have only ever had one email from and whose name was not on the tenancy agreement, she now hates our guts and is doing her best to screw us all for every cent she can. To the other guys it is a big deal too, of course, but it is even bigger to me as I really need that money and I think it is totally unfair if she refuses to give it back when she originally said that she would.

My questions are -

1. Does anyone know of anyone who is looking for staff in the Taupo or near-Taupo area. I've been working in IT sales for the past 18 months and prior to that I have office admin/customer service experience as well as IT network administration experience. I've done heaps of other types of work throughout my 25 years but that is my main skill set. I have a CV I can send if need be, and my own transport (bike, of course) plus I am available for interviews anytime.

2. Could anyone who is somewhat more familiar with the tenancy tribunal etc tell us if we actually have a case with this bond issue. I have the proof that she said the bond was going to come back if that helps.

I'm doing the best I can to maintain a positive outlook and I have definitely learned a lot through this period, but it still stresses me out a lot plus it bites being at a loose end all of the time.

Any thoughts/advice/encouragement/whatever would be welcome.

Cheers

DarkLord

Bikernereid

3rd March 2009, 14:31

Have you gone to the Citizens Advice Bureau they may be able to help with legal tennancy questions or if not they could point you in the right idea. Hope this helps. Lily

Mikkel

3rd March 2009, 14:32

Nasty

3rd March 2009, 14:34

2. Either go directly to the Tenancy Tribunal, or go via the Citizen's Advice Bureau (http://www.cab.org.nz/). I am pretty sure that if the landlord, upon the final inspection, expresses satisfaction with the condition of the flat then they are obliged to return your bond in full.

They should also have completed are form to release the bond with the landlord. All the information you need should be here http://www.dbh.govt.nz/tenancy-index

Waxxa

3rd March 2009, 14:57

sorry to hear of your predicament dude! :(

tenacy tribunal: you should have no problems. Was another flatmate present to witness when 'she' said everything was OK with returning the bond?

Job: there wont be much IT in Taupo. Can you ask for your old job back? (do you want it back?)

How about Wellington for an IT opportunity?

Good luck man :yes:

DarkLord

3rd March 2009, 15:01

Thanks Waxxa. I don't really want to go back to Auckland in all honesty. I doubt that will happen but I will consider relocating again if nothing else comes up.

All four of us were in the room at the time when she said she was happy with the carpet and I still have the text message on my phone saying that the bond was on its way, indicating she was happy with the place.

Burtha

3rd March 2009, 16:07

Unfortunately I can relate and am sorry that you've had to go through this. I think it costs about $70 to put a case to the tenancy tribunal but of course if everything is in your favour, then I believe that the landlady will be the one that foots that bill eventually.

As for IT, I have similar background as you and didn't think Taupo had a big puter industry there. Closest I got from Auckland was Hamilton - but that was back in 2000 admittedly.

All the best, am sure that there will be a silver lining in there somewhere - its amazing how things turn out for the better.
Hang in there!

Mom

3rd March 2009, 16:43

Well that sucks a big one mate! Sorry to hear you got caught in the middle of shit like this. Tough times to be without a job, specially when you left a perfectly good (well you know what I mean) one, to move a long way away to be unemployed.

Tenancy issues:

Your bond is held in trust and requires both parties agreement for it to be released. First question here, who signed the bond lodgement form originally? That is who has to sign it to release the bond. Is this female who has renegged on her, I assume verbal agreement, the house was ok and the bond would be released, the one that signed the original?

How can you prove she said that?

You will have to go to the Tenancy Tribunal for a bond dispute. The process is a bit long winded, you will have to have a mediation first for example, but worth it. In my experience as a Property Manager, the leanings of the Tribunal are to the tenant :yes:

Do you have your tenancy agreement (original) showing the agreed damage on moving in?

Happy for you to PM too, I have had a little bit of experience in these matters.

DarkLord

3rd March 2009, 16:47

Mom

3rd March 2009, 16:54

Yes she is the one who originally signed the form. We've never met this other guy. She sent me a text message saying "tenancy tribunal shouldn't be too long with bond" which distinctly gave me the impression she was satisfied and was going to give our bond back. I still have the text on my phone and my flatmate has taken a photo of it too. From what I gather my flatmate has the original agreement somewhere.

A text that says the tenancy tribunal shouldn't be too long with the bond is a sort of ok thing to have, but really does not give you much to stand on in the Tribunal. Never mind, next question, who signed the original bond lodgement form for the tenancy? Whos name is the bond in (you dont have to tell me that) and did they sign the bond release form? That form states how the refund of bond is divided. Either all to tenant, all to landlord or part to each. Has that form even been signed?

DarkLord

3rd March 2009, 17:28

A text that says the tenancy tribunal shouldn't be too long with the bond is a sort of ok thing to have, but really does not give you much to stand on in the Tribunal. Never mind, next question, who signed the original bond lodgement form for the tenancy? Whos name is the bond in (you dont have to tell me that) and did they sign the bond release form? That form states how the refund of bond is divided. Either all to tenant, all to landlord or part to each. Has that form even been signed?

I'm not actually too sure on those details, they are with my ex flatmate. He is fairly confident things will be resolved in our favour. I guess I am concerned that they will look at this from a purely legalistic point of view, that is my greatest fear. If we lose, we may end up having to pay even more, which I really cannot afford. I would hope that by them seeing that text message they will see that she was satisfied enough to start the process of returning our bond and that she has gone back on her word.

Mom

3rd March 2009, 17:59

I'm not actually too sure on those details, they are with my ex flatmate. He is fairly confident things will be resolved in our favour. I guess I am concerned that they will look at this from a purely legalistic point of view, that is my greatest fear. If we lose, we may end up having to pay even more, which I really cannot afford. I would hope that by them seeing that text message they will see that she was satisfied enough to start the process of returning our bond and that she has gone back on her word.

So this bond is not your bond then? You were a flattie in this situation? You need to refer to your agreement with your flatmate here and get your portion of the bond back from him, as per any agreement you had.

Oh and of course they are going to look at this from a purely leaglistic point of view. That was actually what I was doing.

That text message is not worth a tin of shit, legalistically speaking of course. Sorry mate, get your flat mate to sort this out. He should ring 0800 tenancy and take advice from the call centre on this one. I cant help by proxy.

DarkLord

29th March 2009, 22:51

A small update:

No news on the job front as of yet - but I have got a fairly decent payout from the company I was meant to be working for, so living off that at the moment.

We booked in a mediation with the Tenancy Tribunal, only to find that our useless ex-landlord didn't get the letter, as apparently the Tribunal doesn't have her new address as she never gave it to them when she moved recently. When they called and asked if she was still coming she got all stroppy on the phone and cancelled it. I don't think she was expecting us to take it as far as we have.

I was chatting to my ex-flatmate today - he tells me that he got a call from the Tribunal saying that the landlord had contacted them and says that she finds it very unfair that it is now going to go to court, and that she never had a chance to go through mediation. Well, excuse me, you stupid bitch, we tried to organise that and paid for it and everything. It's not our fault if you don't tell people your new address when you move. They asked if we would consider going through mediation again, and my flatmate simply said no - we booked one before and it's not our fault if she didn't make it. This has wasted enough of our time and money, and we see court as the only way to resolve it.

From what I gather she never knew we were going to take it this far, and really doesn't want this to go to court, as from what I hear if this goes to court it will make it difficult for her to rent the house out in future. I think she's running scared now. During our time living there we began to realise that she uses anger to manipulate and control people and situations, and she just thought that if she got angry enough at us, we would back down and whimper and cower and let her keep what was rightfully ours. She doesn't realise we are actually smart people who know how to fight and that we would rise to the challenge, instead of let ourselves get robbed, because she wants to do cheap house rennovations (last time we went by the house they were doing it up).

She's already made herself look bad by not showing up at the mediation and has outright lied to the Tribunal "they deliberately burned my brand new carpet out of malice!!!" which we set them straight on when they questioned us about it. No set date for the hearing, but I am more and more confident that things are going to be resolved in our favor. All we need to do is keep calm and just tell the truth and I feel we are going to win this.

I can't wait till this is resolved as well - I'm itching to give her a piece of my mind for wasting so much of our time and for being such a two-faced manipulative backstabber. I guess in my naive little world, I don't want to believe that people are really as rotten as what she is, and I still in some ways live under the impression that all people are genuinely good at heart. Situations like this really tend to burst your little bubble a little bit, and welcome you into the world of real life.

Blackshear

30th March 2009, 07:38

I guess in my naive little world, I don't want to believe that people are really as rotten as what she is, and I still in some ways live under the impression that all people are genuinely good at heart. Situations like this really tend to burst your little bubble a little bit, and welcome you into the world of real life.

How many years in your life, and you're just coming across one now...
You're on a roll. We're not all bad. :shifty:

RantyDave

30th March 2009, 07:51

From what I gather she never knew we were going to take it this far, and really doesn't want this to go to court
Ideal. So you call her and tell her that you don't want to go to court either and all you want is your bond back. Like, now. If she so much as flinches you say "ah well, never mind, I guess we'll have to go to court then" and end the conversation.

Oh! Also, did she ever lodge it with the DBH? Bond money does not belong to the landlord - she's probably pissed it away. Yah, she won't want to go to court. Oh dear oh dear oh dear.

http://www.landlords.co.nz/read-article.php?article_id=3015

Dave

DarkLord

30th March 2009, 07:55

Cheers Dave -

That might be an idea, although somehow I doubt she will listen to us. I'll have a chat to my flatmates about it, see what they think. Is it true that if this does go to court she may have trouble renting out the property in the future?

The bond is with the tenancy tribunal at the moment, so the money's not going anywhere till this gets resolved.

R6_kid

30th March 2009, 07:59

Ideal. So you call her and tell her that you don't want to go to court either and all you want is your bond back. Like, now. If she so much as flinches you say "ah well, never mind, I guess we'll have to go to court then" and end the conversation.

Oh! Also, did she ever lodge it with the DBH? Bond money does not belong to the landlord - she's probably pissed it away. Yah, she won't want to go to court. Oh dear oh dear oh dear.

http://www.landlords.co.nz/read-article.php?article_id=3015

Dave

If they go to court and win, won't they be awarded costs as well? That way she has to pay for her fuckup, and if it really does make it harder for her to rent the place out in the future then all for the better - people will hopefully get the idea that she's not as nice as she might seem.

DarkLord

30th March 2009, 08:03

I think we are going to have a quiet word with the current tenants ourselves and just give them a wee note of warning. If I have to come all the way back to Auckland for this I would hope there will be some kind of payout for my petrol money at least.

The previous tenants before us just upped and left without bothering to clean the place and let her keep the bond. She told us that when we first looked at the house - I wish we'd picked up on things then. Ah well, ya live and learn.

Mom

30th March 2009, 10:07

Is it true that if this does go to court she may have trouble renting out the property in the future?

NO, there is nothing to stop her being a landlord in the future,each case is dealt with and filed away.

If they go to court and win, won't they be awarded costs as well?

NO they wont get costs unless they have asked for them in the application.

If I have to come all the way back to Auckland for this I would hope there will be some kind of payout for my petrol money at least.

You can request the hearing takes place in Taupo mate :blip: You have the power, you might not suceed in getting that agreed but it is worth a try. You will need to put your request for costs to be awarded in the application you made to the Tribunal. Ring 0800 836 262 quote your file number and get them to add the request for reasonable costs. It is not unknown for costs to be awarded, good luck, whistle out if I can help.

want-a-harley

30th March 2009, 11:43

My 2 cents, do as much communication by email, then it's all logged. Any specific dates you remember times of conversations, write em down and log em.

more_fasterer

30th March 2009, 11:47

Been in the same situation myself, and it sounds like you're doing the right thing. Her name's not Luci is it?

DarkLord

30th March 2009, 12:06

We've been mainly communicating via email, so it's all logged. Nope, her name is not Luci. Glad to hear you think we're doing the right thing, though. I really hope this teaches her a lesson.

Burtha

30th March 2009, 12:40

Good re logging.

My hubby and I have been in a couple of situations were we have been in long term tenancy ie; 2-4 years, quiet, clean, ontime rent etc but when we came to leave the landlords became psyco money hungry, intrusive and insensitive.

I don't think they learn though because the "Its our property" mode kicks in and your rights become 0 and their rights become 100 in their peewee minds.
I found one of our landladies actually inside doing renovations unannounced when I came home from work. She soon got told where to go though and the purpose of why I was paying her rent.

Keep cool, as they aint all bad, but there are bad apples in every bunch. Well, they are more like right wankers actually, you'll just learn how to cover your bases ie; learn from experience. So the good ones still outweigh the bad ones.

Yay!

EDIT: have also had FAB landlords. One loved me so much they wanted to buy me a house to live in so I wouldn't move, and the other got upset when we found a house of our own because they didnt want us to leave and we still see them on occasion.

RantyDave

30th March 2009, 14:29

NO, there is nothing to stop her being a landlord in the future

NO they wont get costs unless they have asked for them in the application.

You can request the hearing takes place in Taupo mate
Listen to her. She is smarter than me.

Dave

CookMySock

30th March 2009, 20:36

You get a shit year now and then, and then ten good ones, so don't take it too much to heart. Chin up!

Use the hard lessons to toughen you up a bit, and make sore new decisions about what you want.. maybe your own house instead of being in everyone elses pockets.

Steve

DarkLord

2nd April 2009, 21:09

Just heard today that the court hearing is on the 27th of this month at the North Shore District Court.

I'm hoping I don't have to go all the way up there, again. But if I have to then so be it.

Max Preload

3rd April 2009, 08:44

Just heard today that the court hearing is on the 27th of this month at the North Shore District Court.

I'm hoping I don't have to go all the way up there, again. But if I have to then so be it.

You don't. Conference call.

imdying

3rd April 2009, 09:06

That text message is not worth a tin of shit, legalistically speaking of course. Sorry mate, get your flat mate to sort this out. He should ring 0800 tenancy and take advice from the call centre on this one. I cant help by proxy.Actually it does have some value. It's an adjudicator, not a judge, that handles these proceedings... they are conducted with considerably more 'realism' than pure court proceedings.

Mom

3rd April 2009, 09:53

Actually it does have some value. It's an adjudicator, not a judge, that handles these proceedings... they are conducted with considerably more 'realism' than pure court proceedings.

I worked in property management for years and am well versed in Tribunal processes and know the Residential Tenancy Act pretty well. I have spent many, many hours in mediation and Tribunal. I have never had a fail in Tribunal. To be sucessful you must be organised and have really good records that are presented in a professional manner. Adjudicators are easily frustrated by cases where cases are presented in an adhoc manner.

I have offered to assist the OP with his tenancy issues both by PM and on this thread. I reassert my claim that the text message is worthless, a text saying the tribunal should not be long with the bond is a nothing unless it forms part of a whole picture and is presented to the Tribunal in a logical and meaningful way.

I wish him luck getting this sorted.

DarkLord

3rd April 2009, 10:38

Mom

3rd April 2009, 10:47

Surely the fact that the four of us were in the room at the time when she said the carpet was ok as it was so old anyway would count for something though?

And also the fact that she deliberately lied to them directly, saying we deliberately burned her brand new carpet out of malice etc would help them see through her? AND that she never showed up to the mediation because she didn't tell them her new address, and now wants another one and says it's not fair that she didn't get a chance with the first one??

I mean, she shouldn't stand a chance. She approved the house, and told us the bond was on it's way, and then changed her mind. I mean WTF?? How is that fair? And with this other jackass who apparently co-owns the house - we've never met this guy and never had any dealings with him until now. Surely any one with half a brain would be able to see through this and see who is in the wrong here.

The four of you will have to appear before the Tribunal as witnesses to state your case. Unfair is not an emotion that is really recognised by Tribunal. Although I once got a claim for inconvienencing a tenant upheld against me. You simply must approach this in a cool and calculating way, a smart landlord will run rings around you in Tribunal and make you look like a fool, trust me, I have done it to tenants when deserved with good results.

EDIT: The fact she did not show for mediation means nothing, I have had tenants not turn up for mediations, rescheduled to suit them and they still not show. Makes no difference when you get to Tribunal at all, the adjudicator will only know that no mediation has happened and dismiss any talk for the reasons why.

DarkLord

3rd April 2009, 10:51

The four of you will have to appear before the Tribunal as witnesses to state your case. Unfair is not an emotion that is really recognised by Tribunal. Although I once got a claim for inconvienencing a tenant upheld against me. You simply must approach this in a cool and calculating way, a smart landlord will run rings around you in Tribunal and make you look like a fool, trust me, I have done it to tenants when deserved with good results.

I don't think she falls into the category of smart, somehow. She loses her temper at the drop of a hat and just starts blabbering on about any old bullshit. The four of us will stand and make our case, and I should be able to do it via phone. It's at the North Shore District Court, which I find interesting - I would have thought that it would have gone to the Tenancy Tribunal instead.

Mom

3rd April 2009, 10:52

I don't think she falls into the category of smart, somehow. She loses her temper at the drop of a hat and just starts blabbering on about any old bullshit. The four of us will stand and make our case, and I should be able to do it via phone. It's at the North Shore District Court, which I find interesting - I would have thought that it would have gone to the Tenancy Tribunal instead.

The Tenancy Tribunal is upstairs at the North Shore District Court.

DarkLord

3rd April 2009, 10:53

EDIT: The fact she did not show for mediation means nothing, I have had tenants not turn up for mediations, rescheduled to suit them and they still not show. Makes no difference when you get to Tribunal at all, the adjudicator will only know that no mediation has happened and dismiss any talk for the reasons why.

So why is this beginning to sound more and more like they are going to side with her?? She tries to rip us off and according to them can do no wrong whatsoever??

DarkLord

3rd April 2009, 10:54

The Tenancy Tribunal is upstairs at the North Shore District Court.

Ah, that makes sense. Thanks.

Mom

3rd April 2009, 13:31

So why is this beginning to sound more and more like they are going to side with her?? She tries to rip us off and according to them can do no wrong whatsoever??

They are not going to side with her at all mate, my experiences are that Tribunal is fair and just, but alot of decisions go the way of the tenant. You simply must be well prepared, have everything documented with copies for the Adjudicator and the landlord. Be precise, be calm and stick to the facts without emotion. Do not speak over the top of the landlord if you disgree with them, make a note of it and rebutt what was said when you get your chance to speak.

imdying

3rd April 2009, 14:10

I have offered to assist the OP with his tenancy issues both by PM and on this thread. I reassert my claim that the text message is worthless, a text saying the tribunal should not be long with the bond is a nothing unless it forms part of a whole picture and is presented to the Tribunal in a logical and meaningful way.

I wish him luck getting this sorted.:shrug: I talk with DT and TT adjudicators every week, over a range of topics; they advise that the value of the text message would be weighted along with any other evidence... as you've just stated... In other words, 'worthless' is incorrect... every piece of the puzzle is taken into consideration...

DarkLord

26th April 2009, 18:31

Update:

The case goes to court at 9:30 tomorrow morning. My presence is not required, so as for now I remain in Taupo and the other 3 guys are going to speak on my behalf. My flatmate has shown me a list of the arguments he and the others have put down, and it looks good, even though it was only half finished when I last saw it.

I shall post again tomorrow with the outcome once I hear it.

*fingers crossed*

DarkLord

27th April 2009, 11:10

Update:

The hearing was this morning.

The female landlord we have been having dealings with, didn't even show up, and left everything to the guy that we had never met.

I wasn't there, so I am going by the stories of the other 3 guys but apparently he waffled on for ages about all this bullshit he was claiming for. When our turn came, we had a long written argument disputing everything that he said, and he ended up getting all flustered and confused, then tried to make excuses for the female landlord "she has a very busy schedule" etc etc.

The judge rubbished most of his claims. There are a couple, however, that we may be liable for, one being the burn that was repaired (I think that only the one of us may be liable for that) and for the garden, which was a mess. The landlord said she didn't expect us to maintain it if we didn't use it, and we did tell him that, but apparently we may still be liable for it. However, if that is the case I am not too worried.

He is going to assess the possible claims and get back to us. Once we have our bond back, the email flaming can finally begin.