Tip: What to do when you tuck the front.

[beyond]

What do you do when you tuck the front wheel? Maybe braking too hard in the wet or the dry, which usually causes this phenomenon....... what do you do?

Well, the simple answer in most cases is nothing! When it happens, it happens so fast you are normally down and out which leads to another tip... always wear the best gear you can afford because right now you are going to need it.

BUT.... in a lot of cases you will get enough warning to do something about it immediately after you get the warning signs and if you react fast enough you will more than likely come back to this forum to tell us how you avoided a major off :) I look forward to hearing your story because I am sure that if you ride regularly it is going to happen sooner or later.

1. In the wet, all braking manouevres have to be taken with a lot more room, a lot more sensitivity on the brake lever and please be super smooth.

2. In the dry, front wheel braking in a corner with too much pressure on the front lever will tuck your front.

What are the signs bearing in mind a front tuck occurs when braking under cornering or pushing too hard into a corner?
1. A juddering from the front tyre when dry.
2. A chirping sound from the front tyre when dry as your tyre tries to maintain grip.
3. Your front wheel starts to slide on you wet or dry.

In all cases... immediately release your grip on the brakes, stand your bike up as quickly as you can, counter steer and weight your footpeg in the opposite direction of your slide.

Scenario... you are entering a left hand corner which is more dangerous as a slide will have you into opposing traffic with disastrous results.
Something happens in front causing you to brake harder than you would normally. Everything appears to be ok then you realise one of the above symptoms is occuring. Immediate reaction will save the day.... slow reactions means you are out, it's all over rover. :(

I ride with all the gear. I ride with the balls of my feet on the pegs for more control and for instant peg weighting. I ride fully concentrated and therefore will not drink alcohol while riding becuase no matter how little you have had, it WILL slow your reaction time.

I have to brake harder than normal with the front, the front wheel breaks traction and starts to slide and I am headed for a lowside and believe me, they hurt too.

Instantly I release the front brake, shift my body weight to the opposite side of the slide and weight the peg on the opposite side while instantly counter steering... in this case a left hander I push the right hand bar to straighten the bike up. As soon as the bike starts to straighten you immediately intitiate a left hand turn to avoid oncoming traffic but use less force.

Practice these moves in the dry on a straight road. Push the bars to see the effect. Weight each peg to try the effect... a knee on the tank with pressure will force the bike over as well and if you counter steer, shift weight, weight the peg and knee the tank together it will all help to change weight and help prevent sliding.

A big topic here but I've covered the bases.

Cheers... safe riding.

[Motu]

To regain traction on the front tyre - lose traction on the rear tyre.Enough throttle to spin the rear tyre,or enough brake to make it slide.If you can't control a rear wheel slide you sure as hell ain't gunna control a front wheel slide.Learning to control a rear wheel slide is the easiest way....maybe you'll get to the front wheel later.....

[beyond]

Quite right Motu. I am assuming that most people hopefully know how to control a rear wheel slide and I opted for the front in this tip as a lot of people find themselves down and out on the front too :)
I just posted on the front as I have found recently that the Pilot Power on my front with a Pilot Road 2 on the rear is not such a good combo as I first thought.

Using a heavy bike like mine, I never use the rear except when on hills, in the wet or two up and recently I've had two front wheel tucks as I believe the bike is too heavy after a hard run and softens the Pilot Power too much.

The above techniques have saved my bacon twice in the last month even though I have never had an issue with Pilot Road 2's front and back.

Cheers bud.

[Motu]

And you can punch the front wheel right out from under you by applying power in an attemt to save it.I did that once on a CB750 when I pushed the front wheel out exiting a corner - the stab with my boot nearly sent my hip into my shoulder with a bike that heavy.I used to float my bike between front and rear wheel slides on the dirt track....easy when you have enough time in a corner to play around.

Losing the front on corner entry is a mistake from further back,I usually try to make my mistakes on corner exit....it's much easier to pull something out of the hat,and make it look like it was meant to be that way.

[xwhatsit]

I was going uphill through the Auckland Domain last winter. Uni students will know that uphill almost-hairpin right-hander, covered in tar snakes and off camber.

My mind on other things, went in way too hot for the conditions, set the bike up normally, trailed some rear brake while I set it up to wind the throttle on. Gradually had the most awful feeling that the front wheel was trying to tuck and was in fact understeering, pushing forwards -- just like in a car. Caught by surprise I just kept what I was doing, holding on the throttle and trying to keep the front wheel pointing roughly in the direction of travel.

Your sentence there, Motu, about having enough time in a corner to play around... that might have something to do with it.

Ran slightly wider than I normally would but it pulled up at the exit of the corner and I carried on as if nothing happened. Felt very, very odd and I've only had a similar situation again when I was on gravel.

[Winston001]

Practice these moves in the dry on a straight road. Push the bars to see the effect. Weight each peg to try the effect...

Great thread Beyond and worth thinking your advice through. My only problem is that with an $11,000 bike I'm not going to practise almost putting it down - anywhere. :(

The only thing I can think of is to get on a trail bike and practise the principles except the weight, speed, and road surface is so different that it might not be any help. Funnily enough I found riding my trail bike easier after the getting the Duke. So I learned skills in reverse. Does that make any sense?

[Motu]

My mind on other things, went in way too hot for the conditions, set the bike up normally, trailed some rear brake while I set it up to wind the throttle on. Gradually had the most awful feeling that the front wheel was trying to tuck and was in fact understeering, pushing forwards -- just like in a car. Caught by surprise I just kept what I was doing, holding on the throttle and trying to keep the front wheel pointing roughly in the direction of travel.


Although you cocked it up with your entry,your problems came on corner exit - you were home and hosed.Beyond is talking about people who cock it up big time on corner entry with lots of brake.I have no advice for them other than go back a bit further.....the front tuck is a result,the cause came a long way before they got into trouble.

[Big Dave]

Tucked doesn't rhyme with you-know-what for nothing.

[CookMySock]

Um, you know a lot more about this than me, but I thought front wheel braking in a corner was not done.

For myself, if I find I'm too quick on entry, I brake hard while I can, releasing slowly but fully, as to not give the front steering geometry a fright, while simultaneously transferring as much weight as I am able to the inside of the corner, look up, concentrate, and just smoothly steer with the bars ignoring the lean angle of the bike, and try and carve a nice constant arc.

Steve

[Mom]

What a great thread. I have just sat here and run through the steps I took to avoid highsiding off my bike not long after I got it.

I was approaching a right hand corner with what I realised was far too much speed and applied some firm front braking to slow me down. The front suspension was far from perfect and the front dropped right down, tucking to the left and I could see myself going over the bars in my mind.

I released the brakes, and stood the bike up by weighting (read stomping on here) the outside peg and pushing through the turn, counter steering for all I was worth. Gave myself a hell of a fright.

Interestingly enough I did not actually give a lot of thought to how I had avoided making a complete twit of myself, the lesson for me was, slow down and learn your bikes capabilities when you are riding it for the first time. The peg weighting and countersteering came second nature, and not actually thought out at the time.

To encourage anyone reading to actually go out and have a play with peg weighting and countersteering in a non pucker situation, so it will happen if you should find yourself anticipating a bit of a flying lesson.

My 2c addition, avoid getting yourself in that situation in the first place by using appropriate entry speed into a corner, stay off those brakes mid corner, have good tyres and well set up efficient suspension.

I had my forks reconditioned not long after this incident, the difference in riding/cornering was like night and day.

Thanks beyond, good thread!

[jrandom]

Pilot Power on my front with a Pilot Road 2 on the rear is not such a good combo as I first thought.

I've been running PP 2CTs front and rear for a while now, and had no issues, even while turning in reasonably hard (for a GSX1400) under brakes around Taupo.

I wouldn't be surprised if the difference in rear profile and grip between a pair of PPs and a PP/PR2 combo is fucking up your front end somehow. I personally wouldn't feel keen about running a PP front and PR2 rear.

You should still get pretty good mileage off a PP rear. I get over 6,000km, including trackdays. Probably close to 9,000 if it's just highway mileage.

And the different profile of the PP rears really does change the 1400's turn-in for the better. Try one! I'm running the 190/55 PP 2CT rear at the moment, but I think the 190/50 is just great too, and works better on the road, doesn't square off so fast.

[cowpoos]

To regain traction on the front tyre - lose traction on the rear tyre.Enough throttle to spin the rear tyre,or enough brake to make it slide.If you can't control a rear wheel slide you sure as hell ain't gunna control a front wheel slide.Learning to control a rear wheel slide is the easiest way....maybe you'll get to the front wheel later.....
ah...flat trackin/speedway. must be something in that riding...produced hundreds of champions in roadracing!

[Squid69]

Ive only felt the front tucking on bumps mid corner.

It kind of slapped my inside hand into the tank a few times then continued on, barley even loose my line.

I was not touching the brakes, just leaned over going around a corner. I suspect the engine oil i put in my forks is too thick.

[vifferman]

If you're Colin Edwards, you just hold it up on the elbow and knee (although that wasn't so much tucking the front as slipping off the seat!) Either way, it was a ripper piece of riding!

Very occasional, you can stamp your inside foot down to get some weight off the front tyre, but if you did this at any speed, you'd break your foot.

Sometimes, there's nothing you can do. I lowsided my VFR750 one morning on the way to work - one second I was tipping into a corner at about 35km/h, the next I was on the ground. I had no idea what happened - it was so quick. After some searching of the "crime scene" I discovered an old squashed "V" can on the road in the intersection - it was all scuffed and very nearly road coloured. I'd hit it with my front tyre while leaned over, and it provided zero traction apart from between it and the tyre, so that was that.

[beyond]

Great thread Beyond and worth thinking your advice through. My only problem is that with an $11,000 bike I'm not going to practise almost putting it down - anywhere. :(

The only thing I can think of is to get on a trail bike and practise the principles except the weight, speed, and road surface is so different that it might not be any help. Funnily enough I found riding my trail bike easier after the getting the Duke. So I learned skills in reverse. Does that make any sense?

LOL, I didn't mean practising putting your bike into a front wheel washout situation. What I mean is get on a straight bit of road and push the bars away from you each side to get the feel of how quick you can countersteer.
Do this slowly and build up. Same goes with weighting either peg and seeing the result, then try pushing with your knee against the tank.

Then practice these in combos and then all together to see the huge amount of difference and how quick you can shift direction.

i.e. once familiar with all the moves try practising a right hand turn on a wide bit of clear road by pushing the right hand bar away from you, pushing your left knee against the tank and weighting your right footpeg and see the results. Practice this regularly so it does become second nature when you need a rapid weight shift.

[beyond]

Um, you know a lot more about this than me, but I thought front wheel braking in a corner was not done.


Steve

Yep, often done once you know what you are doing. It's called trail braking and depending on the type of bike you have, either front or rear or both is fine IF you know the traction limits of your bike and tyres.

For me, I rarely use the rear brake on my bike as it's heavy and thows a lot of it's weight to the front tyre. This allows me to brake very late into corners which the 1400 is excellent for.

The same rule applies to every bike though. In a straight line you have 0 lean and can brake 100%. BUT braking into a corner you MUST trade off braking power for grip..... trail braking.
e.g You enter a corner and are at 40% lean then you cannot use more than a maximum of 60% brake under ideal conditions or it's over.
If you are at 90% lean you only have 10% braking power available.

You must constantly be aware of the grip levels available under braking and vice versa and this comes with experience and knowing your bike and tyre combination.

The same appplies to acceleration when cornering. At 60% lean through a corner, you can only use a maxiumum of 40% throttle or again you overcome the grip levels of the bike. Once you come out of the corner say at 10% lean you can apply 90% throttle etc. Once you are fully upright you have 100% throttle available without upsetting the physics.

[SPman]

I just posted on the front as I have found recently that the Pilot Power on my front with a Pilot Road 2 on the rear is not such a good combo as I first thought.

. That's interesting as I've got a Road 2 on the back and was going to put a Power on the front, of the XJR. So - go Road 2,s front and back, ya reckon?

I've lost the front on an FZR250 on Scenic Drive once.......not a pleasant experience....it was the Girlfriends bike and the overriding thought was "whatever you do, keep this bike upright...or else..." I think it was a patch of moss though, coz, once it hit some dry seal, she was all sweet again....

[cowpoos]

If you're Colin Edwards, you just hold it up on the elbow and knee (although that wasn't so much tucking the front as slipping off the seat!) Either way, it was a ripper piece of riding!.


Or do A pOO'S AND FARK IT UP!! --> http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=24742

[TonyB]

One point- In my humble and possibly incorrect opinion, the 'sportier' the geometry of your bike, the quicker it will crash in a front end slide. Steep steering head angles and low trail numbers make for nice flickable handling, but they also make it harder to save the bike when it all starts to go wrong, because what steers quicker also crashes quicker

[beyond]

That's interesting as I've got a Road 2 on the back and was going to put a Power on the front, of the XJR. So - go Road 2,s front and back, ya reckon?

I've lost the front on an FZR250 on Scenic Drive once.......not a pleasant experience....it was the Girlfriends bike and the overriding thought was "whatever you do, keep this bike upright...or else..." I think it was a patch of moss though, coz, once it hit some dry seal, she was all sweet again....


Yeah mate, stick to PR2's all around on the heavier bikes. They are an awesome tyre, I'v never had an issue with them even when pushing hard :)

[beyond]

One point- In my humble and possibly incorrect opinion, the 'sportier' the geometry of your bike, the quicker it will crash in a front end slide. Steep steering head angles and low trail numbers make for nice flickable handling, but they also make it harder to save the bike when it all starts to go wrong, because what steers quicker also crashes quicker

You are quite right. Very fast reaction times are required and more so the sportier the bike you ride. As I mentioned in the first part of my post, there is very little you can do once she goes. You need to recognise the signs immediately but when they go, they go fast, so much so that you will probably be preparing to apex the corner and then find yourslf sliding down the road wondering why the world seems to be on a funny angle.

[Maki]

I never brake hard except when the bike is standing up and going in a straight line. Braking hard enough to "tuck" and chirp your front wheel while taking a corner sounds like a crazy thing to do. If it happens you can take it as a sure sign that you are pushing WAY too hard for the street. You are on the brink of bone crushing bike destroying disaster. Enjoy smoothness, rhythm and good lines on the road. If you want the ragged edge, then take it to the track.

Read "The Pace"

"Running in on the brakes is tantamount to running off the road, a confession that you're pushing too hard and not getting your entrance speed set early enough because you stayed on the gas too long."

http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/flashback/122_0911_the_pace_nick_ienatsch/index.html

[beyond]

I never brake hard except when the bike is standing up and going in a straight line. Braking hard enough to "tuck" and chirp your front wheel while taking a corner sounds like a crazy thing to do. If it happens you can take it as a sure sign that you are pushing WAY too hard for the street. You are on the brink of bone crushing bike destroying disaster. Enjoy smoothness, rhythm and good lines on the road. If you want the ragged edge, then take it to the track.

Read "The Pace"

"Running in on the brakes is tantamount to running off the road, a confession that you're pushing too hard and not getting your entrance speed set early enough because you stayed on the gas too long."

http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/flashback/122_0911_the_pace_nick_ienatsch/index.html

No argument there at all.
I merely posted to help those that find themselves in this situation and hopefully give them a few tips on what to do about it, because no matter how careful riders are, they are going to be faced with a corner braking situation at some stage in their motorcycling life.

[TonyB]

Read "The Pace"

"Running in on the brakes is tantamount to running off the road, a confession that you're pushing too hard and not getting your entrance speed set early enough because you stayed on the gas too long."

http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/flashback/122_0911_the_pace_nick_ienatsch/index.html

On the road yes, totally agree. On the track if you don't do it, you're screwed. It always amazes me watching the onboard shots with telemetry from the MotoGP- 40 to 50° lean angle while braking HARD, then over to 60°+++ for the apex. That would take phenominal skill.

Edit: Just read that article. He makes a lot of sense- great read and good advice!

[discotex]

Have saved a couple of front end slides on the track. Only lost one. Try to avoid it every happening on the road.

One thing you do learn on the track is how much more you can brake with the front while leaning over than you think you can.

[sharky]

Saw a clip on You Tube from Californian Superbike School that says when counter-steering, TO PICK THE BIKE UP AFTER THE TURN you should pull the bar towards you rather than push the opposing bar away from you, as it gives more control and also makes it easier to lift yourself back up onto the bike when you're hanging off to transfer weight. Give it a go it works bloody well and feels very natural. That is just a general racing tip and not specific to loosing the front.

And yeah, knee works well on the track. Don't really get it near the ground on the road so would be little help.

On my GSX-R600 I have PP 2CT front and PR2 rear, seems sweet to me. Had PP 2CT's both ends prior, still feels and rides similar, just wanting to get a few more miles out of them.

[jrandom]

"Running in on the brakes is tantamount to running off the road..."

Horseshit.

[jrandom]

Yeah mate, stick to PR2's all around on the heavier bikes. They are an awesome tyre...

Agreed, but I still think you should try PP 2CTs front and rear on the 1400 sometime, like they were meant to be used. Say goodbye to front end pushing and unnecessary rear power drifts! PR2s are good tyres, but I'm never going back to them.

:yes:

[cowpoos]

Horseshit.
+1 totally!!!!!!!!!