Economic crisis just an excuse...

[Fatt Max]

Rocked over to see a mate of mine last night, he was a bit down after getting laid off from his job.

So, armed with a box of happy fizz and some of the Corromandels best, we sat down and chewed it over.

My mate made a very interesting observation. His company (an engineering firm, Aussie owned) have just picked up a huge contract worth a few million over 5 years. Now, all of a sudden, the firm is in trouble, wages are being cut, overtime gone and the last 5 guys in were outed.

His question was "Why the f**k has this happened?"

Good point because right now the firm is busier than ever.

His angle is that companies out there are using this economic climate as an excuse to cut the arse out of their costs and get more out of the people left. Yes, appreciate that times are hard but are these big compaines taking advantage of the situation to crunch the workforce?

And, are they using this as an excuse to get rid of workers that they dont want?

Tad scary thought, eh...

Wondered what you guys thought about that one....

[riffer]

Yeah, saw it all before in 1991-92.

And guess what happened? The economy picked up, and businesses were slow to recognise this, and starting in about 1995 the great New Zealand Brain drain started to occur.

Face it, the majoriy of New Zealdand employers wouldn't know their arse from the elbow when it comes to proper long-term management of their company.

argh. I've woken up possessed by the spirit of Finn. :confused:

[ManDownUnder]

Yeah, saw it all before in 1991-92.

And guess what happened? The economy picked up, and businesses were slow to recognise this, and starting in about 1995 the great New Zealand Brain started to occur.

Face it, the majority of New Zealand employers wouldn't know their arse from the elbow when it comes to proper long-term management of their company.

What he said... and right now there's still opportunity for good people.

Get his CV together, shit in order and hit the road looking for jobs.



argh. I've woken up possessed by the spirit of Finn. :confused: Put it back - I know where it's been...

[rainman]

companies out there are using this economic climate as an excuse to cut the arse out of their costs and get more out of the people left. Yes, appreciate that times are hard but are these big compaines taking advantage of the situation to crunch the workforce?

Nothing new there then.


Face it, the majoriy of New Zealdand employers wouldn't know their arse from the elbow when it comes to proper long-term management of their company.

Abso-effing-lutely. And you could leave out the word "long-term" and still be right.

[Murray]

Face it, the majoriy of New Zealdand employers wouldn't know their arse from the elbow when it comes to proper long-term management of their company.


Big problem being that so many NZ business now has foreign ownership and they are so fixated in growth. Just making a profit is not good enough for them, they must grow the profit every year and employers here are forced to scarifice long term goals for short term fixes!!

[Mom]

There is also the continuing blame of the economic crisis for failing businesses. I hear it all the time, oh we were doing ok till the economic crisis happened, turnover is right down yadda, yadda. Here is one for Finn though, talking to a woman last week, we came up with half a dozen instances in the last 3 months where businesses had failed to capatilize on an opportunity.

One as an example. A guy wants to buy 2 heat pump DVS systems for his home and a rental that he also owns. Goes into local shop and talks to the salesman there. Yes sir we can do that for you, I will come out next week and do a measure up and get a quote sorted. This is 6 weeks ago, and no sign of said salesman at all. Now how hard can times really be if you can turn down a sitting opportunity like that. I have money on the fact that shop will be cutting back staff really soon as business is not doing so well.

[Skyryder]

Rocked over to see a mate of mine last night, he was a bit down after getting laid off from his job.

So, armed with a box of happy fizz and some of the Corromandels best, we sat down and chewed it over.

My mate made a very interesting observation. His company (an engineering firm, Aussie owned) have just picked up a huge contract worth a few million over 5 years. Now, all of a sudden, the firm is in trouble, wages are being cut, overtime gone and the last 5 guys in were outed.

His question was "Why the f**k has this happened?"

Good point because right now the firm is busier than ever.

His angle is that companies out there are using this economic climate as an excuse to cut the arse out of their costs and get more out of the people left. Yes, appreciate that times are hard but are these big compaines taking advantage of the situation to crunch the workforce?

And, are they using this as an excuse to get rid of workers that they dont want?

Tad scary thought, eh...

Wondered what you guys thought about that one....

:Oi: With a post like this you will get my kinda reputation.:love: Yea but sounds like they want to get rid of all the sour milk:sick: and keep the cream:woohoo: and guess who gets the sugar. Not the guys down on the floor.

Skyryder

[Skyryder]

Yeah, saw it all before in 1991-92.

And guess what happened? The economy picked up, and businesses were slow to recognise this, and starting in about 1995 the great New Zealand Brain started to occur.


This is partly true. They could not pick up becasue they had dumped their emplee base and could not recruit to the level that was needed.

The Job summit was a means to avoid this. Key waxed on about the need to save jobs and everybody thinks that his concern was for the employees. It was not, it is was about protecting the job base for the employers. So that when the economy picks up the job base is still intact. Now if Key had stated this I might have some respect for the man but he has not. He's waffled on about his concerns for those of his roots.........that's the working class........Key has no more concern for them than Rodger Douglas or Hide.


Skyryder

[Brian d marge]

I finally got around to putting all my notes into one ..ducument trouble is its 27 pages long , I want to put it up here as a sort off this is why and how NZ landed in the sh&'( .... I dont know if i can reduce its size any ...how would I go about posting such a doc/pdf of such a size ??

Stephen

ps I m not sure you could call a bubble good times , ( sub prime and the current correction) ,,, I mean thats like saying ,,,I borrowed some money ...so I am better off ,,,???

[Ocean1]

How many of your acquaintances would you, personally hire if you, personally were relying on them to generate more income for you than they cost?

97% of them?, (supposed peak employment figure).

80%?

50%?

The economy is shrinking to the tune of 5 to 7%, (depending on who's % you're quoting). Business owners are asking themselves that question more frequently lately, and the answer ain't that attractive for anyone.


I finally got around to putting all my notes into one ..ducument trouble is its 27 pages long

You're allowed to post a *.doc up to 2MB dude, that's a lot of words...


this is why and how NZ landed in the sh&'

It’s ‘cause there’s way too many reasons not to succeed, dude.

“Most people don't recognize opportunity when it comes, because it's usually dressed in overalls and looks a lot like work.” Thomas A Edison.

[warewolf]

how would I go about posting such a doc/pdf of such a size ??Upload it to any external file hosting site, link to it here.

[twotyred]

In these early stages of the depress...er... recession,there are more instances of businesses using the financial meltdown as an excuse to cut staff to maintain profits reather than actual business failures... this will change

[Winston001]

How many of your acquaintances would you, personally hire if you, personally were relying on them to generate more income for you than they cost?

97% of them?, (supposed peak employment figure).

80%?

50%?

The economy is shrinking to the tune of 5 to 7%, (depending on who's % you're quoting). Business owners are asking themselves that question more frequently lately, and the answer ain't that attractive for anyone.


“Most people don't recognize opportunity when it comes, because it's usually dressed in overalls and looks a lot like work.” Thomas A Edison.


In these early stages of the depress...er... recession,there are more instances of businesses using the financial meltdown as an excuse to cut staff to maintain profits reather than actual business failures... this will change

Well said. When businesses were busy those staff who were a bit slack, rubbed others up the wrong way etc, they were kept on. Now things have slackened off, the boss starts to worry about bank loans etc and where he will be 12 months down the track. So.....layoffs happen.

I've no doubt there are some places using the recession as an excuse to get rid of people. I don't like the thought of that either - but as we've argued many times before, its damned hard/impossible to sack staff under NZ employment law. So the recession has become another way to achieve it.

BUT - make no mistake, there is a serious recession on. Even here in Southland which showed no signs up til Christmas, activity has stopped. For the first time in 7 years, I've used the word "bankruptcy" talking to clients - twice in the last week. Its kinda a shock to go from helping people, to looking bewildered people in the eye and trying to save their homes. Both cases are businesses.

[trumpy]

BUT - make no mistake, there is a serious recession on.

Indeed there is. There are however, a number of people in the employment market who have yet to figure this out.
My company is by no means recession proof but there are always opportunities around if you are prepared to look. As a consequence we are one of the few companies in this town that's trying to increase its staff numbers. I say trying because this is what it has been.
We advertised for a couple of workshop jobs (with full training provided by us) and since there have been a lot of redundancies in this region lately we thought filling these would be no problem.
Sure enough, got plenty of replies but interviews were a different matter. It soon became readily obvious that a good number of the applicants had been spending a little too much time swimming in the shallow end of the gene pool (should have expected that I suppose) but most of the others didn't have much of a clue either.........it's a workshop job man, at least put on a pair of shoes! (some clean clothes and a shower might help too).
Then we got applicants telling us how much we were going to pay them...........now let's see if I have this right; you have no experience in this industry, no skills and no job?......and we are going to pay you what?......here mate have a Tui.

There's a flip side to every coin.

[Ride it till the red]

Trumpy, are you still looking? What kind of workshop job are we talking? Taupo would be a nice change of scenery and it sounds like it might be a good opportunity to get into a good career. And without being too confident, given your report on other applicants I might be at least one step ahead of the bunch.

Although I'm happy to say that at this stage my job looks pretty damn safe!

[Max Preload]

Rocked over to see a mate of mine last night... etc. etc.

I thought you left? (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=92301)

[Max Preload]

...starting in about 1995 the great New Zealand Brain started to occur.

I've seen little evidence of any brain in New Zealand, much less a great one.

[Fatt Max]

I thought you left? (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=92301)

No, still around, just not as much....had to post this as it was rather topical I suppose

[BMWST?]

Any of you guys actually work in a small business, with the owner of said business?

[McDuck]

Any of you guys actually work in a small business, with the owner of said business?

Dose my dad count?

[Ocean1]

Any of you guys actually work in a small business, with the owner of said business?

Given that some 80% of business entities in NZ qualify as small I'd say most of them do.

[BMWST?]

Dose my dad count?

of course! I ask this because i do,and we have just gone onto a four day week.I assure you its a genuine cost saving measure because we dont have the work for a full week.It costs the business money NOT to be open so its not a ruse

[Mom]

Any of you guys actually work in a small business, with the owner of said business?

I own a small business

[Mom]

of course! I ask this because i do,and we have just gone onto a four day week.I assure you its a genuine cost saving measure because we dont have the work for a full week.It costs the business money NOT to be open so its not a ruse

It costs you money to only open 4 days a week? Hope the cost is less than being open 5 days a week?

[McDuck]

of course! I ask this because i do,and we have just gone onto a four day week.I assure you its a genuine cost saving measure because we dont have the work for a full week.It costs the business money NOT to be open so its not a ruse

My dad is a simmiler thing. Work is fickel (sp) and while there is enough to keep him going they are not making a large amount and have (about a yea ago) make redunt 2 employees. The two that went were the ones that worked slowly, had poor apperance, made mistakes and barely broke even. On the other hand the employee that he has kept on his worth his weight in gold, as a result he is on top pay, more holidays than the standerd and so far is the only employee (dad included) to get a new van.


A good employee is worth keeping, bad ones are a dime a dozzen.

[Fatt Max]

Any of you guys actually work in a small business, with the owner of said business?

Have done in the past and ridden the roller coaster.

However, this thread is aimed more at the big corporations (mostly aussie or, god forbid, US owned) that are using the whole crisis as a trigger to lump the profit.

Small business's are vunerable more so than the big, filth, piggy trough corporate scum. The small guys have their houses and lively hoods riding on their business and I respect these people for that.

But, the big pigs started this and it's us, workers and small busines owners, that will have to pay.

I was just wound up by what my mate said last night, poor sod. Mind you, he phoned earlier today and told me that he has a possibility of a start week after next at another firm so good on him.

Soapbox tucked away now, back to my book writing....

[1 Free Man]

Rocked over to see a mate of mine last night, he was a bit down after getting laid off from his job.

So, armed with a box of happy fizz and some of the Corromandels best, we sat down and chewed it over.

My mate made a very interesting observation. His company (an engineering firm, Aussie owned) have just picked up a huge contract worth a few million over 5 years. Now, all of a sudden, the firm is in trouble, wages are being cut, overtime gone and the last 5 guys in were outed.

His question was "Why the f**k has this happened?"

Good point because right now the firm is busier than ever.

His angle is that companies out there are using this economic climate as an excuse to cut the arse out of their costs and get more out of the people left. Yes, appreciate that times are hard but are these big compaines taking advantage of the situation to crunch the workforce?

And, are they using this as an excuse to get rid of workers that they dont want?

Tad scary thought, eh...

Wondered what you guys thought about that one....
Yep ya got it in a nutshell. The firm that I was working for had us all to a meeting on the wednesday and said that
" All was well and we could weather the storm. No worrys jobs were secure we were good."
Less than a week later a selected few, 11 of us, were told the firm was on shaky ground and the had to revisit the whole thing. I personally offered to go onto a 3 day week, to no avail.
Up shot of it was 6 of the more senior members of the shop floor staff were given the boot.
All of the asians, Parkys and darkys on the staff stayed.
Some of then had been there a matter of a few weeks.
Heard through the grapevine the company loves the asians because "they do as they are told, don't ask questions and will work for a bowl of rice." Quote the production manager. (Arsehole)
Funny thing was we were all KIWI's that lost our jobs.

The firm in question is New Zealand owned. It's not just off shore interests that are taking advantage of this situation

[trustme]

Freeman, you are better off out of it if that is the way they operate.
A generalisation but the Ockers are far more proactive in their management style than we are , we wait till the tidal wave hits us & then start to swim, Ockers tend to see the signs & don the water wings ahead of time. Aussies will never do us any favours so we should not be suprised at this sort of stuff.
Imagine if we were a nation of savers instead of spenders & actually invested in our own companies, we might still own the odd bank or insurance company, even a lunch bar would be nice.

[Ocean1]

A good employee is worth keeping, bad ones are a dime a dozzen.

They're actually $360,000.00 a dozen.

That's the trouble, right there.

[CookMySock]

It's standard practice to ride public feelings on things. If you sell a dairy-based product, and everyone is moaning about the price of dairy going up, then put your price up whether you have to or not. Same goes for fuel - if it is abundantly clear to everyone that you use a lot of fuel, put your prices up and point at fuel costs for the reason - everyone will believe you without question. Same applies for staff - if you WANT to ditch staff, and everyone is complaining about unemployment, then ditch them now and point at the "unemployment problem" as the cause of it. No one questions it.

It's just all good business practice. Not nice for employees and consumers to hear I know, but don't shoot the messenger if you please.

Steve

[slofox]

Any of you guys actually work in a small business, with the owner of said business?

I own a small business. I have gone the other way and have just hired someone to work the seventh day of the week so that we are open every day. This is my attempt to maintain turnover which has dropped a lot in the last twelve months.
The seven day opening bit is a three month trial - if that day does not produce extra turnover, it stops and we revert back to 6 day opening. Fingers crossed that it works.

[Lucy]

Yep ya got it in a nutshell. The firm that I was working for had us all to a meeting on the wednesday and said that
" All was well and we could weather the storm. No worrys jobs were secure we were good."
Less than a week later a selected few, 11 of us, were told the firm was on shaky ground and the had to revisit the whole thing. I personally offered to go onto a 3 day week, to no avail.
Up shot of it was 6 of the more senior members of the shop floor staff were given the boot.
All of the asians, Parkys and darkys on the staff stayed.
Some of then had been there a matter of a few weeks.
Heard through the grapevine the company loves the asians because "they do as they are told, don't ask questions and will work for a bowl of rice." Quote the production manager. (Arsehole)
Funny thing was we were all KIWI's that lost our jobs.

The firm in question is New Zealand owned. It's not just off shore interests that are taking advantage of this situation

Name and shame please.

[Winston001]

However, this thread is aimed more at the big corporations (mostly aussie or, god forbid, US owned) that are using the whole crisis as a trigger to lump the profit.

Understand, but thats where I think you are mistaken. We only hear about job losses in the media when 50+ are laid off. It looks like big business shedding workers, and big business are the only employers that matter.

In reality something like 90% of the businesses in the country are small - no more than 5 staff. They are laying off but its invisible. The only people who know are the Government through WINZ and the Labour Department. They are worried.

Big businesses go under. Feltex, meat companies, paper mills, nothing is exempt. Well ok, rest homes and prisons. :D



But, the big pigs started this and it's us, workers and small busines owners, that will have to pay.


If you mean the recession, its much more complex than a few big boys making bad investments. In a way, the whole of the Western world made bad investments - houses always go up.......right?? And those investments were funded by money from oil-rich nations and new wealth from the likes of China.

In the earlier part of this decade the world was awash with capital. Money which people wanted to invest - and it had to go somewhere. Banks were desperate to lend it. So they made borrowing easier and easier. The ordinary person went ahead and took the money, upgraded houses, cars, flat-screen tvs, holidays......until the bad loans started to turn up. Panic.

Which is where we are today. Right now there is a massive oversupply of goods - cars, bikes, appliances, timber.....and until it gets sold and the factories can reopen, things everywhere are going to be quiet. It'll be ok but tough for some of us for a while.

[trustme]

They are called NINJA loans, based on a No Income No Job Application. Why are we surprised that it all turned to shit.

[FROSTY]

Im at the very small end of the employer scale.
Even so wages are a big part of my costs . I have to make sure that my staff earn more for me than they cost.

[slofox]

I have to make sure that my staff earn more for me than they cost.

Which is exactly why my seven day trading is a three month trial...

[Brian d marge]

It’s ‘cause there’s way too many reasons not to succeed, dude.


there were a lot of external reasons .... but one or two who caused the real damage ,,,,, and they are near the food trough again ,,,

Stephen

[warewolf]

But, the big pigs started this and it's us, workers and small busines owners, that will have to pay.Yebbut small fry have benefited in the mean time, eg those sub-primers who took the loans for 110% of the house value, spent the 10% and buggered off. At the time they thought it was easy money, now they probably don't have a job and have directly contributed to that situation.


Understand, but thats where I think you are mistaken. We only hear about job losses in the media when 50+ are laid off. It looks like big business shedding workers, and big business are the only employers that matter.

In reality something like 90% of the businesses in the country are small - no more than 5 staff. They are laying off but its invisible. The only people who know are the Government through WINZ and the Labour Department. They are worried. Been thinking exactly that for some time. My position has been shaky for some months and was finally laid off last month, just 1 of <20 staff. If the monthly total layoffs for small business was reported by the media as if it was one employer, then there'd be far more noise about it all than there is now. Then there's the attrition by not replacing those who leave; that's being reported in the media fortunately.

In the past this firm has carried several non-revenue-generating staff simultaneously for 3-6 months at a time, waiting for big projects to come in. Not anymore.