Paper roads

[monchopper]

I was exploring a couple of paper roads yesterday and found them to have locked gates on them.
Today I've rang the company which has the gates locked and they believe the gates aren't on the legal line and that the paper road has no vehicular access anyway.
So I rang the council concerned and there roading engineer got out their maps/ aerial photos etc and it appears the gate is on the legal line but the marked track doesn't follow the legal line 100% of the way.
The paper road in question goes through a forestry block and it looks like the company has planted trees on the legal line where it deviates from the formed track!!!
It raises the question who is more wronger.
Me for riding my bike on the formed track and going off the legal line for 20 meters.
Or them for causing me GBH when I hit an illegally planted tree whilst trying to keep to the legal line??
I will keep you posted on the outcome.

[Maha]

We live in a small town and on a paper road, even a cop stopped once and asked where the hell is number 'whatever'?
Our road goes through a playground and some council flats, which is where the confusion comes from....and it can get a bit soggy in winter.

[CookMySock]

We live in a small town and on a paper road, even a cop stopped once and asked where the hell is number 'whatever'?Didja tell him to get bent? :killingme

@monchopper, cough, nah it will be interesting to see the outcome. I just lurrrve lighting fuses on things like that.. :corn: Pity you couldn't be a fly on the wall and watch the ensuing argument. :corn: Keep an eye on the place - someone will be down there with a chainsaw before long "remedying" the problem. Haha, you should go do it yourself.. "shrug, they were in the middle of the road, officer.."

Steve

[monchopper]

Didja tell him to get bent? :killingme

@monchopper, cough, nah it will be interesting to see the outcome. I just lurrrve lighting fuses on things like that.. :corn: Pity you couldn't be a fly on the wall and watch the ensuing argument. :corn: Keep an eye on the place - someone will be down there with a chainsaw before long "remedying" the problem. Haha, you should go do it yourself.. "shrug, they were in the middle of the road, officer.."

Steve

It turns out that basically the Council have a major shareholding in the forestry parent company so the issue should be resolved quickly.
(I suppose as a rate payer I'm a stakeholder)

The Roading Engineer at the council was a great guy, I will be using him alot in my crusade to get those gates open that should be open.

I was pissed off yesterday, after having spent along time mapping out the route, making sure the roads were legit etc only find a locked gate! The guy I spoke to at the forestry company basically told me to f@ck off when I challenged him on it this morning so he pissed me off even more than I already was.

[Peril]

I was pissed off yesterday, after having spent along time mapping out the route, making sure the roads were legit etc only find a locked gate! The guy I spoke to at the forestry company basically told me to f@ck off when I challenged him on it this morning so he pissed me off even more than I already was.

Bolt cutters and a hacksaw in your tool kit from now on?:laugh:

[junkmanjoe]

we have paper council roads that go through private forest blocks up here as well,
im trying to get a key so we can ride through there soon, ya just have to be sooo nice to the suits sometimes, its yucky......:sick:
should just cut the lock and cain it, :scooter:

[monchopper]

we have paper council roads that go through private forest blocks up here as well,
im trying to get a key so we can ride through there soon, ya just have to be sooo nice to the suits sometimes, its yucky......:sick:
should just cut the lock and cain it, :scooter:

The point is the gates shouldn't be locked in the first place if they are on a paper road.
In the words of Rage against the Machine.
"Now action must be taken we don't the key we'll break in"

The chain on the gate in question was a big Mofo we would've needed a grinder.

[thepom]

where is this road as I see your location is london ha ha ....

[monchopper]

where is this road as I see your location is london ha ha ....

Updated!

The road is in Canterbury NZ!

Although I have long history of taking a stand against nazi bastards trying to take away our roading rights in the UK as well!

[junkmanjoe]

i have however got us through a locked gate over private maori land, it took a fair bit off arse licking to get it, and a golden hand shake as well......:shit:
as the paper road is now under the sea,,,, bugger.

[monchopper]

We might have to organise a ride through this forest when/if the chains come off. 30 or 40 bikes blazing a trail through this reclaimed route.

[junkmanjoe]

it sucks but i just have to be a nice boy, and say yes sir thank you sir, other wize my request falls on deaf ears....
was great back in the late 80's just ride on through and where you wanted......the good ole days aye......

[Racing Dave]

Are you prepared to say where it is?

[Winston001]

Monchopper is right about the gate being unlawfully locked. However be careful about paper roads. Many were surveyed in England from maps drawn by early explorers and go straight up cliffs. :D Leaving that aside, often tracks on the ground are only an approximation of the actual roadline and cross private land. For that reason polite enquiry is the best approach.

[monchopper]

Are you prepared to say where it is?

I'll give a full account of the road in question once the issue has been resolved.

[monchopper]

Monchopper is right about the gate being unlawfully locked. However be careful about paper roads. Many were surveyed in England from maps drawn by early explorers and go straight up cliffs. :D Leaving that aside, often tracks on the ground are only an approximation of the actual roadline and cross private land. For that reason polite enquiry is the best approach.

I fully agree re: 'polite enquiry' however the polite enquiry in this case got me a not so polite f@ck off you can't come through here.
Ultimately I believe the best source is the roading engineers at the local council, they usually have aerial images and can overlay the paper road to give a more accurate opinion of the status.

[PeteJ]

The whole point about "paper" roads is that they are legally dedicated public roads that have just not been formed yet (or, in many cases in the Sth Island, just not maintained for the last 100 years).

The last time I did any research on it - for running road trials years ago - adjacent landowners may put gates across them to control livestock, but may not lock the gates.

[B0000M]

so does this apply to paper roads around the country? theres a heap of them around these ways which id love to go for a bit of an explore on, but a lot appear locked

[The Pastor]

is there a list of paper roads? be keen to check out some in auckland one day

[B0000M]

is there a list of paper roads? be keen to check out some in auckland one day

google maps or google earth will show you. where the lines are showing a road, but there doesnt appear to be a formed road, thats a paper road

[jim.cox]

google maps or google earth will show you. where the lines are showing a road, but there doesnt appear to be a formed road, thats a paper road

Be warned that Google Earth / Google Maps are not that accurate

While it may show unformed roads, its positioning can be off by 30m or more.

And you can be done for tresspassing if you stray off the road.

[frewi]

New Zealand, boasting to the world a land of adventure. Well I think any body coming to NZ for an offroad adventure might be struggling with all these no public access routes and locked gates. Man I'm a kiwi living in France and over here they've got right of passage routes weaving through Farm land and Forestry. Open for all!! Everyone respects each others discipline, cockys don't even know the meaning of a gate. Bit of string across an opening to a paddock or crops and people don't go there. Back home some people should loosen their grip abit. :nono:

[monchopper]

New Zealand, boasting to the world a land of adventure. Well I think any body coming to NZ for an offroad adventure might be struggling with all these no public access routes and locked gates. Man I'm a kiwi living in France and over here they've got right of passage routes weaving through Farm land and Forestry. Open for all!! Everyone respects each others discipline, cockys don't even know the meaning of a gate. Bit of string across an opening to a paddock or crops and people don't go there. Back home some people should loosen their grip abit. :nono:

We've got some fairly tough laws on trespassing here!

[frewi]

We've got some fairly tough laws on trespassing here!

Imagine if you could ride from Napier to Taupo for instance on a Queens chain. Its like that over here. I can ride from Lyon to Saint Etienne which is about the same distance and I'm not trespassing. The tracks are right of passage. Infact most are the shortest route between towns dating back to the romains.

[monchopper]

Imagine if you could ride from Napier to Taupo for instance on a Queens chain. Its like that over here. I can ride from Lyon to Saint Etienne which is about the same distance and I'm not trespassing. The tracks are right of passage. Infact most are the shortest route between towns dating back to the romains.

I'd be keen to know if there are any routes from France into either Swizterland or Italy from your general area that go purely on gravel tracks/roads! over the alps. I'd love to do a off road route through the alps!!

[idb]

Or from France to New Zealand...now that would be an adventure!

Of course it couldn't be direct, that would be just silly, what with all the salty water and stuff, it would probably have to go a different way...

[FJRider]

As I recall from similar "things" happening down this way, The land owner(s) either side of the "paper road" can apply to have this status revoked.... if they can prove low volume useage of vehicles make it unviable/unlikely to be made into a formed road... hence a locked gate.

[monchopper]

As I recall from similar "things" happening down this way, The land owner(s) either side of the "paper road" can apply to hasve this status revoked.... if they can prove low volume useage of vehicles make it unviable/unlikely to be made into a formed road... hence a locked gate.

If they lock the gate then the volume of traffic is going to be low!

If there is a paper road that is over ridable terrain but is unformed. Map it out, organise 20 bikes and 10 4 wheel drives, drive/ride up and down it and form that road!!!

[XF650]

I think forestry owners & managers can be extra nervous about public access, paper road or not. Fire risk, liability for road maintanence and OSH compliance are constant issues. As well as motorbikes, they are having to contend with 4wd's, hunters, mountain bikers & trampers, often trying to follow some obscure paper road. All it takes is some idiot to ruin it for the rest of us.

And as already stated, paper roads were often drawn with little consideration to land use or contour - I'v seen one that went through a swamp and another that was washed out, requiring a loop through private land.

In my personal experience with a North Canterbury forest that's accessed by paper road, requesting vehicle access can be helped simply by asking in advance, with assurance that spark arrestors will be fitted, fire extinguisher carried, leaving gates as found and staying on the defined tracks & roads.

[monchopper]

I think forestry owners & managers can be extra nervous about public access, paper road or not. Fire risk, liability for road maintanence and OSH compliance are constant issues. As well as motorbikes, they are having to contend with 4wd's, hunters, mountain bikers & trampers, often trying to follow some obscure paper road. All it takes is some idiot to ruin it for the rest of us.

And as already stated, paper roads were often drawn with little consideration to land use or contour - I'v seen one that went through a swamp and another that was washed out, requiring a loop through private land.

In my personal experience with a North Canterbury forest that's accessed by paper road, requesting vehicle access can be helped simply by asking in advance, with assurance that spark arrestors will be fitted, fire extinguisher carried, leaving gates as found and staying on the defined tracks & roads.

Paper roads are paper roads. Requests don't have to be made, idiots are bound by the same transport laws that exist on sealed roads, although common sense could be exercised it's not a requirement (therein lies a big problem) If you deviate from the paper road you're trespassing.
If the forestry block you speak of has a paper road and a locked gate then thats illegally blocking a public road.

[jim.cox]

Paper roads are paper roads.

Better then to refer to them as "unformed legal roads", which is exactly what they are.

They exist, and not just on paper

[XF650]

Paper roads are paper roads. Requests don't have to be made, idiots are bound by the same transport laws that exist on sealed roads, although common sense could be exercised it's not a requirement (therein lies a big problem) If you deviate from the paper road you're trespassing.
If the forestry block you speak of has a paper road and a locked gate then thats illegally blocking a public road.

Gate has never been locked on the forest I'm refeering to. But neighbouring forest does lock their gates, effectively isolating their private tracks and any paper roads. Ironically I recently saw some shadey looking characters trying to force their way through, yet keys are available on request.
Seems the landowners in Monchopper's case have made a cock-up & aren't handling the situation very well. However I would still be working to get "on-side" with them, not "off-side".

Courtesy isn't compulsory but it's bound to help our cause for access in the long term. E.g. where a deviation onto private land is required because of condition of unmaintained paper road. Also 'unformed' paper roads are often hard to define & straying onto private land is inevitable.
Just last weekend Timg & I were riding a paper road along the tops of the Brothers Range in South Canterbury. The track soon became nothing more than faint wheel marks in the grass. Eventually even this was split by a fence and it was pot luck as to which side was the actual paper road. Local farmer turned up & informed us we were on his land, not the paper road. But no big deal, especially as I had notified him of our intentions earlier that day.

[XF650]

Better then to refer to them as "unformed legal roads", which is exactly what they are.

They exist, and not just on paper

Hopefuly coonyer will see this topic & comment - he's had experience with these issues.

[Ixion]

The link contained in this post (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showpost.php?p=1299816&postcount=15), on a similar subject , may be of utility and interest

[FJRider]

If they cite "public safety" for the padlock, you might strike tresspas charges on entry... "removing" the padlock may result in intentional damage charges.

[junkmanjoe]

in my aera, its just a mater of a few ph calls, to find the right person, ask to meet them, let them know what we are and what intend to do in there,( pass over land forest beach e.t.c ) and leave it as we find it, gates shut no rubbish, stay on the track, most cases, cockys are fine, some roads are maintaned, buy 4x4 clubs, d.o.c and ask for a donation to help keep the road useable. e.t.c
the hardest ones to gain access to are private maori land.

i make it very clear to land owners that we are NOT dirt bikers, just there to rip up the land.......
but a group of adventure riders just looking for passage to the other side.

cheers.

[pete376403]

As I recall from similar "things" happening down this way, The land owner(s) either side of the "paper road" can apply to have this status revoked.... if they can prove low volume useage of vehicles make it unviable/unlikely to be made into a formed road... hence a locked gate.

Upper Hutt City Council tried this a while ago with some land in Whitemans Valley. A property developer wanted to offer some lifestyle blocks that inconveniently had a paper road running through the middle. Council was all gung-ho to have the road revoked so the developer could make heaps of money and of course the council would get all their fees and so on. Fortunately the local 4WD clubs managed to put a stop to it but it took a court case to get the final ruling.

[idb]

I think forestry owners & managers can be extra nervous about fire risk, .....

In my personal experience with a North Canterbury forest that's accessed by paper road, requesting vehicle access can be helped simply by asking in advance, with assurance that spark arrestors will be fitted, fire extinguisher carried......

I don't think they are really made of paper!!!!

[MXNUT]

The link contained in this post (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showpost.php?p=1299816&postcount=15), on a similar subject , may be of utility and interest

Is that Rd still open to the public now as i would be very keen to go and have a look.

[cooneyr]

If the road is unformed how can you guarantee that you stay within the road reserve and not trespass on private land. Just last weekend wifey and I road a proper paper road in South Canterbury. Lucky this road is still open but even with a GPS and about three versions of the "line" on top of each other it was hard to know if we were on the road or the adjacent paddock at times. Also the physical track often meandered off the "line" and for the sake of minimising damage we stuck to the track but we were definitely trespassing.

A further point to note is that there is a difference between an unformed legal road and simply as parcel of land that looks like a road but is in fact a reserve or has some other legal status. Case in point the Lyttleton side of the bridal path is not longer a road even though the parcel looks like one The status was changed some time in the 1990's and there was attempts to change the CCC side at the same time, luckily it hasn't changed. The only sure way you can find out if a parcel of land is actually a a road is by obtaining a title (if one exists) or legal description from LINZ. No idea what it costs to do this but it wont be fast or cheep.

Cheers R

[Spyke]

would be bloody good to have a map of all the paper roads so then we could all ride them, make them more well known to the adventurous people that have ridden all the normal roads.

[Paladin]

...........
i make it very clear to land owners that we are NOT dirt bikers, just there to rip up the land.......
but a group of adventure riders just looking for passage to the other side.

cheers.

You don't tell em you got mates on DT230's, DRZ400's and a certain rear wheel sliding nutter on a KLR with noisy exhaust who can all DO the Makairo in 30minutes riding with you then! :msn-wink:




(nah, me neither!!!! :done: )

[monchopper]

If the road is unformed how can you guarantee that you stay within the road reserve and not trespass on private land. Just last weekend wifey and I road a proper paper road in South Canterbury. Lucky this road is still open but even with a GPS and about three versions of the "line" on top of each other it was hard to know if we were on the road or the adjacent paddock at times. Also the physical track often meandered off the "line" and for the sake of minimising damage we stuck to the track but we were definitely trespassing.

A further point to note is that there is a difference between an unformed legal road and simply as parcel of land that looks like a road but is in fact a reserve or has some other legal status. Case in point the Lyttleton side of the bridal path is not longer a road even though the parcel looks like one The status was changed some time in the 1990's and there was attempts to change the CCC side at the same time, luckily it hasn't changed. The only sure way you can find out if a parcel of land is actually a a road is by obtaining a title (if one exists) or legal description from LINZ. No idea what it costs to do this but it wont be fast or cheep.

Cheers R
Bloody complex issue this!!
I reckon just ride the f@ckers where possible, stay to the line where possible and if you stray off the 'legal line' who'll know, if you don't know with 100% certainty with a GPS then sure as shit no one else will, or give enough of a f@ck to make an issue of it. Besides the chances of someone standing there saying "that motorbike just rode off the legal line by 3 meters I think I'll sue the bastard" aren't that high.
If a land owner is that pedantic that he says the legal line differs from the formed track by a meter here or there and if you deviate from it he'll take legal action, then tell him you'll have 30 bikes here next weekend riding up and down the right line and we'll f@cking well rip a new track on the right line take your pick.
Not very PC I know. Sometimes you've fight when you're a man (K. Rodgers)

PS Copy of titles cost $8 from LINZ and take 48 hours

[cooneyr]

.....
If a land owner is that pedantic that he says the legal line differs from the formed track by a meter here or there and if you deviate from it he'll take legal action, then tell him you'll have 30 bikes here next weekend riding up and down the right line and we'll f@cking well rip a new track on the right line take your pick....

See thats were we might disagree a just little bit (read a lot). The long term damage this does to the sport is not worth the 3 hours of fun. Take the other approach of getting into the good books of a few land owners and become known as a responsible bunch and you'll never know how many gates may be opened for you!

Cheers R

[jim.cox]

if you don't know with 100% certainty with a GPS then sure as shit no one else will

You are going to need a survey grade GPS for that - got a spare $75k?

[monchopper]

See thats were we might disagree a just little bit (read a lot). The long term damage this does to the sport is not worth the 3 hours of fun. Take the other approach of getting into the good books of a few land owners and become known as a responsible bunch and you'll never know how many gates may be opened for you!

Cheers R
What long term damage? I agree that the responsible biker approach is the only way when you talking about private tracks on private property. Which is exactly what I did to organise this (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=94239). 16 private farms we went over and all the farmers where great about it, some took convincing but after explaining what we were doing etc they were OK.

I'm talking about paper roads (formed, unformed, partially formed.......) that goes through a farmers property and he tells you to piss off, no reason (lambing etc), just piss off (There is no getting into some of these guys good books). You're saying just except it and move on, I'm saying I won't accept it. In most cases I've found the farmer knows there's a paper road but doesn't accept that's there's vehicluar rights.
But I can't accept challenging a farmer causes long term damage to the sport. Just lying down and playing dead won't get us anywhere either.

I believe some negotiation needs to take place and sometimes it needs to be hardball.

[monchopper]

You are going to need a survey grade GPS for that - got a spare $75k?
You've not read this as I intended. Maybe I should've concentrated in England classes when they taught sentence construction.

"if you don't know with 100% certainty with a GPS (which you don't) then sure as shit no one else will" Meaning you don't know but neither will anyone else (except those who have accurate enough equipment, which I believe is $75k).

A GPS augmentation system like they have in Europe (EGNOS) and the US (WAAS) would help with accuracy and could in most cases keep you within the road reserve if you were walking, but not even these 'survey grade' GPS's you speak of would be much use at 40 km/h.

[Woodman]

isn't there an organisation in the uk that organise walks over paper roads Roman roads etc just to make them used and people aware they exist and to make certain they don't get lost in time??
Maybe there should be a similar thing here with paper roads and adv bikes.

[cooneyr]

isn't there an organisation in the uk that organise walks over paper roads Roman roads etc just to make them used and people aware they exist and to make certain they don't get lost in time??
Maybe there should be a similar thing here with paper roads and adv bikes.

Sounds like a bloody good idea and I'd love to do it. I'd quite my job and do it pro bono if somebody want's to sponsor me a bike, some gas money and a tent. Cheap as chips really :baby:

Cheers R

[Winston001]

to change the CCC side at the same time, luckily it hasn't changed. The only sure way you can find out if a parcel of land is actually a a road is by obtaining a title (if one exists) or legal description from LINZ. No idea what it costs to do this but it wont be fast or cheep.

Cheers R

Unfortunately you are right. There could be a dozen titles involved or deposited plans all of which need to be identified and searched. There are land searching businesses who can do this for you at a price. Probably $200.

There is also cadastral software such as Quickmap or Terraview which you can buy. I think the minimum cost is about $350. Best option is to find someone with the software and ask them to have a look. I have an old version of Quickmap but can't open it cos its expired. Updating one of these days and happy to help.

[monchopper]

isn't there an organisation in the uk that organise walks over paper roads Roman roads etc just to make them used and people aware they exist and to make certain they don't get lost in time??
Maybe there should be a similar thing here with paper roads and adv bikes.There are a few but the ones with the most voice are the ones who condone the use of motor vehicles on the currently legal tracks. (Walking/Rambling groups)

One of the problems is in the UK they took all the RUUPs (road used as public path) whos legal status was flowery, (some had legal vehicle status some didn't, with no way of telling) adventure bikers (Greenlaners) took these tracks as there rightful terrain. The countryside act (not long ago 2-3 years) and made all of the RUUPS a regstricted byway (which made them good for anything non-motorised vehicles).

Also because the In NZ legal system they never get lost in time. Surveys taken along time ago still have a degree of relevance today, there is no master update. Property cases can drag on for ages cos of it.

But you're right, we should be doing something. Hence this post....

[bigfish]

The link contained in this post (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showpost.php?p=1299816&postcount=15), on a similar subject , may be of utility and interest

Has Any one done this recently?. I went from Putaruru end yesterday onto Leslie Rd. Cool road but gate 500 metres past Galaxie Rd was Locked.Is it always Locked?.Went down Galaxie instead to main Mamaku Rd. Crossed main Rd and carried on. Galaxie gate was open so I followed right thru to McClarens Falls Road. I enjoyed it so much that I turned around and went back the same way. A top way to spend a Sunday afternoon.

[Waihou Thumper]

Has Any one done this recently?. I went from Putaruru end yesterday onto Leslie Rd. Cool road but gate 500 metres past Galaxie Rd was Locked.Is it always Locked?.Went down Galaxie instead to main Mamaku Rd. Crossed main Rd and carried on. Galaxie gate was open so I followed right thru to McClarens Falls Road. I enjoyed it so much that I turned around and went back the same way. A top way to spend a Sunday afternoon.

Cal me, I would be interested...!
Mum and Dad used to live at the end of Mclarens Falls road....
I always thought you could ride through the forest somehow?
Can you manage a good loop around that area?

Mclaren through Omanawa etc..?
I asked about the road through the 4x4 place at Mamaku, is that the same road? Cecil Rd?

[bigfish]

Cal me, I would be interested...!
Mum and Dad used to live at the end of Mclarens Falls road....
I always thought you could ride through the forest somehow?
Can you manage a good loop around that area?

Mclaren through Omanawa etc..?
I asked about the road through the 4x4 place at Mamaku, is that the same road? Cecil Rd?

It appears to be Cecil Rd beyond gate at Galaxie cross roads.I thought it was meant to be public paper rd with unlocked gate?. Road at McClarens end wanders thru a large conversion dairy farm before it reaches the native.Not sure of the legalities of it so just idled thru nice and quietly.Me and Agricon went thru from McClarens end last year and got to far end and found Mamaku end gate locked.Had to back track to Kaimai end.

[Waihou Thumper]

It appears to be Cecil Rd beyond gate at Galaxie cross roads.I thought it was meant to be public paper rd with unlocked gate?. Road at McClarens end wanders thru a large conversion dairy farm before it reaches the native.Not sure of the legalities of it so just idled thru nice and quietly.Me and Agricon went thru from McClarens end last year and got to far end and found Mamaku end gate locked.Had to back track to Kaimai end.

I guess it might pay to go further afield then....Mind you, as I went through to Murapara the other day, the gates in the forest were unlocked too. Imagine doing a HUGE loop around the Kaimanawa forest through Galatea etc...If the gate ends up being locked I am sure you could go around but I wouldn't want to tresspass deliberately...
When you explore NZ, it is a huge place....Imagine how the Americans get on in their land and having Canada too....:eek:

[warewolf]

Indiscriminate lockouts are frequently counter-productive. It keeps the good people away, but not the problematic anti-social morons. "No access" is not equivalent to "good management". Sometimes civil disobedience (or in the case of paper roads, a facsimile thereof) is appropriate.

[Ixion]

It appears to be Cecil Rd beyond gate at Galaxie cross roads.I thought it was meant to be public paper rd with unlocked gate?. Road at McClarens end wanders thru a large conversion dairy farm before it reaches the native.Not sure of the legalities of it so just idled thru nice and quietly.Me and Agricon went thru from McClarens end last year and got to far end and found Mamaku end gate locked.Had to back track to Kaimai end.

Cecil Road is not just a paper road , it is a full public road. The bastards are trying it on again. BRONZ will send them a filthy missive pointing out that giving the finger to the Ombudsman is a serious offence. Were there any signs ? Or just a padlock ?

[bigfish]

Cecil Road is not just a paper road , it is a full public road. The bastards are trying it on again. BRONZ will send them a filthy missive pointing out that giving the finger to the Ombudsman is a serious offence. Were there any signs ? Or just a padlock ?

Just a padlock. No signs.

[Skinny_Birdman]

A further point to note is that there is a difference between an unformed legal road and simply as parcel of land that looks like a road but is in fact a reserve or has some other legal status. Case in point the Lyttleton side of the bridal path is not longer a road even though the parcel looks like one The status was changed some time in the 1990's and there was attempts to change the CCC side at the same time, luckily it hasn't changed. The only sure way you can find out if a parcel of land is actually a a road is by obtaining a title (if one exists) or legal description from LINZ. No idea what it costs to do this but it wont be fast or cheep.


Hear hear! In the course of my work I frequently come across parcels of stopped road that are now in private ownership, and if you don't have access to Terraview etc you would be hard pressed to tell the difference.




A GPS augmentation system like they have in Europe (EGNOS) and the US (WAAS) would help with accuracy and could in most cases keep you within the road reserve if you were walking, but not even these 'survey grade' GPS's you speak of would be much use at 40 km/h.

I hate to be a pedant, but a GPS augmentation system would help enable you to establish your own position accurately, but wouldn't remove the massive plotting errors in the cadastral databases. All of these products are sourced at some point from LINZ's LandOnline system, which has HUGE errors in it, particularly in rural areas where there haven't been any surveys for a long time, which are likely places to find paper roads (because when Joe Farmer gets his land surveyed, he may also ask the surveyor to investigate the stopping of any paper roads, at the same time).
Also, our survey grade GPS, which is now 2 generations old, has no trouble maintaining lock at 40km/h, provided you don't drive under too many trees. The company I used to work for tested the same system and found it stayed locked up to about 60km/h.

An interesting discussion, this....

[monchopper]

Hear hear! In the course of my work I frequently come across parcels of stopped road that are now in private ownership, and if you don't have access to Terraview etc you would be hard pressed to tell the difference.



I hate to be a pedant, but a GPS augmentation system would help enable you to establish your own position accurately, but wouldn't remove the massive plotting errors in the cadastral databases. All of these products are sourced at some point from LINZ's LandOnline system, which has HUGE errors in it, particularly in rural areas where there haven't been any surveys for a long time, which are likely places to find paper roads (because when Joe Farmer gets his land surveyed, he may also ask the surveyor to investigate the stopping of any paper roads, at the same time).
Also, our survey grade GPS, which is now 2 generations old, has no trouble maintaining lock at 40km/h, provided you don't drive under too many trees. The company I used to work for tested the same system and found it stayed locked up to about 60km/h.

An interesting discussion, this....
Very interesting. The topic has so many parts to it, some opinion, some fact.

Regarding the 40 km/h. I was referring to ones ability to read a GPS, follow the mapped line and keep upright while riding the bike on rough terrain, not the GPS's ability to keep a lock!!!

[Rosie]

Has Any one done this recently?. I went from Putaruru end yesterday onto Leslie Rd. Cool road but gate 500 metres past Galaxie Rd was Locked.Is it always Locked?.Went down Galaxie instead to main Mamaku Rd. Crossed main Rd and carried on. Galaxie gate was open so I followed right thru to McClarens Falls Road. I enjoyed it so much that I turned around and went back the same way. A top way to spend a Sunday afternoon.

That's odd. I've been through Cecil/Leslie roads several times this summer (not since January though, from memory), and the gates on the main/legal road have never been closed or locked.

[Skinny_Birdman]

Regarding the 40 km/h. I was referring to ones ability to read a GPS, follow the mapped line and keep upright while riding the bike on rough terrain, not the GPS's ability to keep a lock!!!

Ah, I see. Fair enough - so if you could multi-task, it should be possible. I know a subset of people who reckon they can do that.... :innocent:

[Ixion]

Email sent to Rotorua DC (nico.claassen@rdc.govt.nz) (purportedly the culprits) regarding Cecil/Leslie Road



Dear Mr Classen

I write to you about Cecil Road, Mamaku on behalf of BRONZ , the Bikers Rights Organisation of New Zealand.

You will be aware that following complaints by Mr Russell Orr , regarding the illegal stopping of Cecil and Leslie Roads by Carter Harvey Holt, Rotorua Council and South Waikato District council , the matter was referred to the Ombudsman. After investigation by his department it was determined that Cecil Road and Leslie Road are public roads, CHH have no authority over them, and there is no legal authority to erect locked gates upon them. Ombudsman's Reference A12108.

In accordance with undertakings given to the Ombudsman 31 August 2006 , the illegal locks on the gates at the Mamaku end of Cecil Road and the Putaruru end of Leslie Road were removed , though the gates remained

BRONZ has recently had numerous complaints from people trying to use these legal public roads to journey from Putaruru to Mamaku, who find, on reaching the Mamaku end of Cecil Road that locks have been replaced on the gate. This is very vexatious , since they are then obliged to turn round and retrace their journey al the way back to Putaruru.

We are advised that the Rotorua District council is responsible for these locks. We submit that the Council has no right or power to exclude the public from a public road , and request that these locks be removed immediately.

Yours sincerely
Les Mason
President

[monchopper]

Hear hear! In the course of my work I frequently come across parcels of stopped road that are now in private ownership, and if you don't have access to Terraview etc you would be hard pressed to tell the difference.
An interesting discussion, this....
I'm finding all this interesting/ball breaking. I spoke to a friend who has dealt with a few of these issues in the courts and I'm still none the wiser.
He said that he's had some cases where a paper road once existed (ie dug up from the archives and not on a cadastral map) still has some legal ramifications today.
Another non PC thing he mentioned was that if you've got a map, map out a route and follow that route and YOU believe that YOU are on the a public road (whether you are or not), that the chances of being prosected for trespass under NZ law are low/none. (OK for a 1 off I know and not sustainable as opening up new terrain and not something I'd endorse, but interesting non the less).

[Skinny_Birdman]

...some cases where a paper road once existed (ie dug up from the archives and not on a cadastral map) still has some legal ramifications today.
Another non PC thing he mentioned was that if you've got a map, map out a route and follow that route and YOU believe that YOU are on the a public road (whether you are or not), that the chances of being prosected for trespass under NZ law are low/none. (OK for a 1 off I know and not sustainable as opening up new terrain and not something I'd endorse, but interesting non the less).

I'd be inclined to agree with the first of those. There are bound to be odd paper roads on Crown Grants etc that have never made it into the digital cadastral record. You'd have to search pretty hard to find them though, and to ensure that they had never been stopped or reverted to some other form of tenure. Such searches eat up a lot of time (read:money) but are fascinating. On the second point, its not something I would care to test myself, and you'd want to arm yourself with some fairly solid evidence of how you mapped out the route, if you were going to try it... I'm no lawyerist.
There are a number of roads (I have been involved in stopping one such:doh:) of which the best boundary definition is a Topo Plan (this is a hand drawn Topo Plan of a wide area, drawn back in ye olde days - as distinct from a Topo Map such as NZMS 260 or NZMS 1) or some similarly elderly record. These roads are very difficult to reproduce on the ground, if you follow me, and surveyors revert to all sorts of evidence to determine where the actual road lies. I must admit I am far too inexperienced in my field to comment much beyond this, as this is a fairly arcane area of the profession. If anyone has any specific questions, however, I am surrounded by about 70 years combined experience in just such issues, so I'm sure I can find get some answers.

Cheers
A

[Winston001]

I spoke to a friend who has dealt with a few of these issues in the courts and I'm still none the wiser.
He said that he's had some cases where a paper road once existed (ie dug up from the archives and not on a cadastral map) still has some legal ramifications today.

Interesting but logical. Just because an old (meaning 1850 -1880) road hasn't made it into the digital record yet, doesn't mean it's disappeared. Its just waiting for a new survey of the area.



Another non PC thing he mentioned was that if you've got a map, map out a route and follow that route and YOU believe that YOU are on the a public road (whether you are or not), that the chances of being prosected for trespass under NZ law are low/none. (OK for a 1 off I know and not sustainable as opening up new terrain and not something I'd endorse, but interesting non the less).

Well yes. Trespass can only occurr after you are warned off so being caught the first time is no basis for a trespass prosecution. Plus I think the land owner has to identify you and hand or post you a written notice. Plus the police generally aren't interested in nuisance trespass prosecutions without a very good reason.

[monchopper]

I'll give a full account of the road in question once the issue has been resolved.

Update: The forestry company (Selwyn Plantation Board Limited SPBL) haven't taken the locks off the gates inspite of being told by local district council. I spoke to the Access guy @ SPBL this week, as we are going through the roads in question this weekend (lock or no lock :msn-wink:), to make sure the locks are off and he told me that they're still on. He informed me that several guys on the SPBL board are also on the Selwyn District Council and they're going to see what they can do to keep the gates locked.

Anyway he kindly offered me the key for the weekend........ to a public road :eek:

The roads are Dalethorpe Road and Bell Hill Road.

[cooneyr]

Update: The forestry company (Selwyn Plantation Board Limited SPBL) haven't taken the locks off the gates inspite of being told by local district council. I spoke to the Access guy @ SPBL this week, as we are going through the roads in question this weekend (lock or no lock :msn-wink:), to make sure the locks are off and he told me that they're still on. He informed me that several guys on the SPBL board are also on the Selwyn District Council and they're going to see what they can do to keep the gates locked.

Anyway he kindly offered me the key for the weekend........ to a public road :eek:

The roads are Dalethorpe Road and Bell Hill Road.

Two points - you appear to have an admission that they roads are public roads and you also need to keep an eye out for any changes in the legal status of the roads.

A change in legal status of the road will require public consultation which will be your only formal opportunity to object. If you want to go down this path dont be a plonker and go ripping up the forest though as you are simply giving them a reason to perminatly close the roads. Alternatively if enough of us use the road then there is a compelling case to keep it public and keep it open.

Take some pics of your trip so we know if the road is worth keeping open so we can keep riding it. They look like a couple of dead ends to me???

Cheers R

[monchopper]

Two points - you appear to have an admission that they roads are public roads and you also need to keep an eye out for any changes in the legal status of the roads.

A change in legal status of the road will require public consultation which will be your only formal opportunity to object. If you want to go down this path dont be a plonker and go ripping up the forest though as you are simply giving them a reason to perminatly close the roads. Alternatively if enough of us use the road then there is a compelling case to keep it public and keep it open.

Take some pics of your trip so we know if the road is worth keeping open so we can keep riding it. They look like a couple of dead ends to me???

Cheers R
The two roads are kinda dead ends although they are joined by the selwyn river which has a paper road along it AND an easement (queens chain?). I'll let you know if it can be made into a loop worth doing. (We often ride to the Waimak Gorge bridge and were looking for some additional rides up that way)

We have permission from the adjoining landowner to use some of there farm tracks as well.

[monchopper]

These 2 roads may be of no real use to us (Watch this space). But thats not the point.

The point is if we don't challenge these guys to get the gates unlocked that shouldn't be locked, then we'll never know if roads such as these 2 are of any value to us.

[Woodman]

Surely the guys on the council and on the spbl board will declare a conflict of interest:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

[cooneyr]

Surely the guys on the council and on the spbl board will declare a conflict of interest:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

:laugh: is right!

[monchopper]

Update:
Last weekend we rode the roads mentioned as part of a 2 day ride we did through to Lake Clearwater via Glenfalloch/Lake Heron. They are linked by the Selwyn river which has a formed track along it between the 2 roads. The track crosses the Selwyn river several times (I went for a lie down on 1 crossing :whocares:). The loop is a great ride and is a hidden treasure of wilderness. I'm still battling with the Selwyn Plantation Board to get the locks off the gates.
For the Christchurch/Canterbury guys who want to explore some new terrain then it forms a good little ride. Up the Waimak from Chch to the gorge, pie and a pint in Springfield then a 30 odd km loop through the plantation/Selwyn river and back via Pig Saddle Road. I will post the gpx file of the route if anyone interested.

[cooneyr]

... I will post the gpx file of the route if anyone interested.

I'm keen for a copy for my collection of files to go on my web site. Email address is in my signature below.

Cheers R

[Skinny_Birdman]

The two roads are kinda dead ends although they are joined by the selwyn river which has a paper road along it AND an easement (queens chain?).

Warning: Anorak Content...

I'm going to be a pedant here, but the closest you are likely to get to the 'Queen's Chain' along the river in question is probably the aforementioned road (not sure about the easement???). To my knowledge, the 'Queen's Chain' where NZ is concerned is a fondly held, but largely unsubstantiated myth. If you want the good oil then try this (http://www.walkingaccess.org.nz/store/doc/NZSurveyorNo289.pdf) but the short story is that there are a number of different types of strips along waterways, including those held under the Conservation Act 1987 and the RMA 1991 (which are probably not much use to bikers, as they are not rights of way), but these strips do not exist over every waterway, and are often as difficult as paper roads (or more so) to find on the ground. This is all moot in this particular instance, as there is a nice paper road on either side of the river, so a nice wide corridor of public land to ride on. I just get antsy when I see references to the Queen's Chain. I'll get me coat.....

[warewolf]

I just get antsy when I see references to the Queen's Chain. I'll get me coat.....But a very valid point, and one that needs reiterating in the context of this thread.

[NordieBoy]

But a very valid point, and one that needs reiterating in the context of this thread.

Just imagine how he feels when he sees mention of the Queen's whip and handcuffs.

[Ixion]

Not to mention the Queen's Truncheon. ooeer - eye watering that is, I'm told.

[jim.cox]

eye watering that is, I'm told.

Just as well he's wearing his anorak then

[Skinny_Birdman]

Just imagine how he feels when he sees mention of the Queen's whip and handcuffs.

Ooo I love it when you talk dirty! Sticks and stones will break my bones but whips and chains excite me....

[monchopper]

But a very valid point, and one that needs reiterating in the context of this thread.

How many of us worry about Queens Chain? especially on braided rivers. I certainly don't.

Eg.
The Eyre River near Christchurch has no easements or 'Queens Chain' but plenty of riders on this site have ridden down it and I bet very of them even considered if this was an easement of any kind?!?!

[warewolf]

Sorry I don't follow you.

My point (skinny's) was that in the context of discussing what is legal (paper roads) and what is not, the fictitious Queen's Chain is not a legal right of way.

There may be an easement - but it is not a Queen's Chain, and you can't presume that every river has an easement.

[monchopper]

Sorry I don't follow you.

My point (skinny's) was that in the context of discussing what is legal (paper roads) and what is not, the fictitious Queen's Chain is not a legal right of way.

There may be an easement - but it is not a Queen's Chain, and you can't presume that every river has an easement.

I suppose my point is many of us ride river beds without knowing or caring whether there is an easement or not.
(Not disagreeing with you or Skinnys points just saying many of us ride river beds and have done for years and don't know or care about the status)

[That looks like fun]

Cecil Road is not just a paper road , it is a full public road. The bastards are trying it on again. BRONZ will send them a filthy missive pointing out that giving the finger to the Ombudsman is a serious offence. Were there any signs ? Or just a padlock ?
Can't say I have ridden this road but (correct me if I am wrong) Cecil Rd is the Rotorua end of the Leslie Rd. Now as I drive past Leslie Rd fairly regularly and had noticed this thread a while back I noted with some interest that a "no exit" notification has been added to the Leslie Rd sign. As we say in pretendy american, wat up?

[Ixion]

Yes, it is . Leslie Road leads into Cecil road, and both are public roads. The Rotorua end of Cecil Rd is (deliberately I suspect) in very bad condition, impassable for cars. But it can be done on a bike (or could, when I was there). A road has to be VERY bad it be impassable for an adventure bike.

I *hope* that the no exit sign is the council trying to frighten people off.

But that reminds me that the council dude has never responded to my email. I will threaten him with the Ombudsbod.

EDIT: Threatening email sent , cc to CEO. We shall wait and see.

[That looks like fun]

Yes, it is . Leslie Road leads into Cecil road, and both are public roads. The Rotorua end of Cecil Rd is (deliberately I suspect) in very bad condition, impassable for cars. But it can be done on a bike (or could, when I was there). A road has to be VERY bad it be impassable for an adventure bike.

I *hope* that the no exit sign is the council trying to frighten people off.

But that reminds me that the council dude has never responded to my email. I will threaten him with the Ombudsbod.

EDIT: Threatening email sent , cc to CEO. We shall wait and see.
If you think it will help I could run the sign over with a big truck :2thumbsup

[junkmanjoe]

I suppose my point is many of us ride river beds without knowing or caring whether there is an easement or not.
(Not disagreeing with you or Skinnys points just saying many of us ride river beds and have done for years and don't know or care about the status)

just a note.
around here a few farmers on the Rumahunga River.
they own sections of river bed across to other shore. but dont have any right to the water.
so even if you where rideing on the stones so to say, you are tresspassing. crazy man..

[monchopper]

just a note.
around here a few farmers on the Rumahunga River.
they own sections of river bed across to other shore. but dont have any right to the water.
so even if you where rideing on the stones so to say, you are tresspassing. crazy man..
Our rivers our rights. Chances of ending up in court are none.
Diary farmers rape our waterways, we just shift some shingle, flip them the bird and roost the bastards :calm:

[XF650]

just a note.
around here a few farmers on the Rumahunga River.
they own sections of river bed across to other shore. but dont have any right to the water.
so even if you where rideing on the stones so to say, you are tresspassing. crazy man..

I might be wrong but I think this (historic) riverbed ownership thing relates to man made riverbeds, so the Queens Chain won't apply e.g. where once the river may have just dissipated out into swamp etc but are now confined by man made stop banks into one stem, so to allow land drainage & development. I'v always been under the impression that the lower part of the Hinds River in Mid Canterbury is one such example.
While a river's upper reaches will be crown land, the lower reaches could well be private title, but as Joe said, not including the water. This implies that if you stick to riding through the main stream, then your not tresspassing, but totally impractable.
I remember an old-timer telling me that if a man made river divides properties then the boundary line is the main stream, wherever the main stream may be. This caused a bit of conflict in the old days, where there was dissagreement as to where the new river should go.
But I'm only repeating others assumptions, so this could all be hearsay.

[junkmanjoe]

as we extract metal from this farmers river beaches.
he said he owns the land under the water right across to other side.
it a section of river aprox 2km long, we buy the metal off farmer not welly regonal council. who control the water ways in our aera.

[NordieBoy]

as we extract metal from this farmers river beaches.
he said he owns the land under the water right across to other side.
it a section of river aprox 2km long, we buy the metal off farmer not welly regonal council. who control the water ways in our aera.

He may just have the mining rights?

[Winston001]

Warning: Anorak Content...

I'm going to be a pedant here, but the closest you are likely to get to the 'Queen's Chain' along the river in question is probably the aforementioned road (not sure about the easement???). To my knowledge, the 'Queen's Chain' where NZ is concerned is a fondly held, but largely unsubstantiated myth. If you want the good oil then try this (http://www.walkingaccess.org.nz/store/doc/NZSurveyorNo289.pdf) but the short story is that there are a number of different types of strips along waterways, including those held under the Conservation Act 1987 and the RMA 1991 (which are probably not much use to bikers, as they are not rights of way), but these strips do not exist over every waterway, and are often as difficult as paper roads (or more so) to find on the ground.....

Spot on and your link spells it out nicely.

The Queens Chain only applies to navigable rivers of which there are few in NZ. If the river changes course, the Queens Chain doesn't move.

Under the Resource Management Act new subdivisions on rivers are required to create an Esplande Reserve which becomes Crown Land. Held by DOC, its a sort of modern Queens Chain.


just a note.
around here a few farmers on the Rumahunga River.
they own sections of river bed across to other shore. but dont have any right to the water.
so even if you where rideing on the stones so to say, you are tresspassing. crazy man..

Well yes you are trespassing. The farmer owns the riverbed but not the water. He can't take gravel from the riverbed without a resource consent - but he can't mine gravel from his own land without a consent either.

We have 150 years of meandering rivers cutting through legal titles. Every river has land which once upon a time was on the opposite bank. It's a source of longstanding feuds where one farmer has a free 50 acres owned by the guy across the river.

Technically its called accretion and erosion. Been happening for centuries. A survey is done, years later the river changes course leaving the old survey lines (which define legal title) and a mess builds up.

[pomgolian]

In the UK the main group who look after these road issues is the Trail Riders Fellowship, diferent groups look after thier local area and log all the legal rights of way. Having spent many hours at the local council looking through very old A3 size books with each page showing only a few hundred metres to find lost lanes like paper roads here (not to mention finding them on the bike and every farmer you met knew of the right to use them as i guess most would here). Coming to unspoilt NZ 5 years ago i expected to find more trails than the probably thousands of miles in the UK i was surprised how little trails are here that are not sensitively ruled or owned by farmers who try to protect thier land. Paper roads is something which seems shrowded in secrecy so if we had a database of diferent roads which could be used in each region how good would that be.

[Winston001]

Yes but England has centuries of ancient pathways which still exist and are legal rights-of-way which are binding on modern title holders. Bit of a nighmare for land owners but staunchly upheld by the urban population.

NZ is a fresh new country so those tyoes of pubic paths never existed for the first surveyors. Instead they plotted roads where they thought they might be needed which is why we have paper roads. They are legal roads but never been formed.

[monchopper]

Warning: Anorak Content...
This is all moot in this particular instance, as there is a nice paper road on either side of the river, so a nice wide corridor of public land to ride on. I just get antsy when I see references to the Queen's Chain. I'll get me coat.....

Many of our rivers have these 'nice paper roads on either side of the river' according to my Cadastral map. Some of them only have it on one side of the river. I thought these were the dark and mysterious Queens Chain.
They obviously aren't???

[Ixion]

Yes, it is . Leslie Road leads into Cecil road, and both are public roads. The Rotorua end of Cecil Rd is (deliberately I suspect) in very bad condition, impassable for cars. But it can be done on a bike (or could, when I was there). A road has to be VERY bad it be impassable for an adventure bike.

I *hope* that the no exit sign is the council trying to frighten people off.

But that reminds me that the council dude has never responded to my email. I will threaten him with the Ombudsbod.

EDIT: Threatening email sent , cc to CEO. We shall wait and see.

Aha. That elicited a reply. Rotorua deny all knowledge of the locks, blame South Waikato.

Same email sent off to South Waikato

Meanwhile a little adventurer waits.

[Ixion]

Interesting.

A reply (very prompt!) from SWDC, also denies all knowledge of any locks. They didn't lock the gates. Nor did Rotorua.

So, it's either CHH (WAY out of line!) or some local Mr Gubbins.

Anyone local got a gas axe? Any locks on the gates may certainly be cut off, or the gates legally circumvented.

[Skinny_Birdman]

Many of our rivers have these 'nice paper roads on either side of the river' according to my Cadastral map. Some of them only have it on one side of the river. I thought these were the dark and mysterious Queens Chain.
They obviously aren't???

Like I say, they are as close to the Queen's Chain as you will get. It just depends on the regime in place when the land was first alienated from the Crown, as to whether a road was set aside along the river bank, or whether a Marginal Strip was set aside under the old Land Act, or whether the rights granted by the title extend Ad Medium Filium - to the middle thread of the river, or whether some different situation exists. This is why you can have the road on 1 side and not the other, if they were alienated at different times. There is just so much variation it is impossible to make generalised statements, such as "there is a 1 chain wide strip of ???? land along each side of every waterway". It is also bloody difficult in many cases to figure out what the nature of the river boundary is in a particular instance. If we are surveying land on an ancient title adjoining a river we will often get a status report from a third party, because the research is so involved.

I see that I have been rambling - so to recap. The road is probably 1 chain (20.12m) wide, and is 'public' (Council) land, so yes, it is the Queen's Chain. Just don't expect to find it on every river you come to.

Cheers
A

[K slider]

We rode a paper road last week end, it had locked gates at either end, the true road was 3 kms away from the track we used. the land is owned by a trust and they gave us access however they get pissed off with people asking once and going there every weekend. The land owners have to maintain the roads repair fences etc and recieve no compensation for damage.
Often paper roadsont follow the route on the map.

[That looks like fun]

Interesting.

A reply (very prompt!) from SWDC, also denies all knowledge of any locks. They didn't lock the gates. Nor did Rotorua.

So, it's either CHH (WAY out of line!) or some local Mr Gubbins.

Anyone local got a gas axe? Any locks on the gates may certainly be cut off, or the gates legally circumvented.

And the No Exit sign?

[bigfish]

YAHOO!! Its open.

[Ixion]

Excellent news !

I wonder which council employee made a hurried trip to remove the locks which they never put there in the first place.

I advised both SWDC and RDC that we (anonymous 'we') would remove the locks since nobody admitted to owning them . SWDC ignored that. RDC were most alarmed. I got back

The locks on the gates on Cecil are not the property of Rotorua District Council, and are not in the Rotorua District. This Council however cannot condone your proposed actions to remove the locks. We strongly urge you to find the lawful owner of the locks in question and do not support you to take the law into your own hands.


He who runs may rede
[/FONT]

[Ixion]

And the No Exit sign?

A paper tiger, now the locks are off. For a trail bike anyway. If it is as bad as it was when I rode it, I doubt an ordinary car could get through, so I suppose there is some validity in the sign, Granny might be annoyed if she got to the end in her Corolla and had to turn back.

[Waihou Thumper]

I shot up Leslie road, then into Cecil road. The road was open all the way through, awesome ride, foggy but good.:done:
I then went through to the village, went out of town and then came to a dead end but the GPS said go through. It turned out to be a small track that took me onto a gorge road and then back to the junction of Leslie and Cecil road.
I carried on this road and it took me to SHWY5. I crossed that and then proceeded to ride all the way to Mclaren Falls.:eek:
Stopped in at the Mount BMW and then road Te Matai rd to Pyes Pa. The road was closed so I then went left at another forestry road and that took me back to SHWY5, intersecting with one of the mornings road.
It was a good ride and I was very suprised that the gates were open.
Infact, there were some gates that looked like they had been bulldozed or rammed.:bleh: Good news for us all!

I did take a few wrong turns and these ended up in Farmers fencelines but all in all it is an awesome playground...I found a lodge, a lake and some pump houses too, so it was good days exploring and will definitely do it again, the next time I may explore left and right off Leslie Road.

That forest is big, I cannot imagine what it would be like in the Kaimanawa Forest! Explore that for days I bet....

[Eddieb]

Did lots of cool exploring down lots of cool sounding forestry roads....

And then posted up a tracklog somewhere so I can load it into my gps and see where you went, and whether it's worth taking sister and Bro in law there when I'm up. Hint hint......:laugh:

[bigfish]

I told you it was a good ride !!!. it would have been bloody cold up on the plateau today.Any Polar Bears??. Cheers.

[Waihou Thumper]

And then posted up a tracklog somewhere so I can load it into my gps and see where you went, and whether it's worth taking sister and Bro in law there when I'm up. Hint hint......:laugh:

It has gone, disappeared off Mapsource....
I will see if I can re-create it....

I have the road names for ya though..

1. Leslie Rd - Cecil Road.
2. Turn right to Mamaku village, veer right and then go right to the end of Arahiwi Rd. This might lead to a closed gate. I went through as it was open.
3. about 300m turned right onto forestry track that took me all the way to SHWY5 bypassing the intersection of Cecil and Leslie Rd, this is a four way junction. If you have the NZ Topo there are roads left and right off this Rd and can be explored.
4. Crossed SHWY5 right opposite, Fonterra sign there. Then went all the way to Omanawa Falls road, veered left but Ngawaro Rd was at the junction. This road I took left from Pyes Pa Rd on the return, so it was a loop...
5. Te Matai runs from Pyes Pa Rd to Te Puke, nice metal and tar sealed.

From Omanawa, I followed Mclaren Falls Rd then back onto Omanawa and into Tauranga. Just out of Te Puke turn right onto Te Matai Rd.
Follow to end turn right and then approx 1Km up road turn left into Ngawaro Rd. This will take you back to SHWY5 bypassing the intersection of Galaxy Rd Nth (I think) this is the Rd that took me to Omanawa Rd. Veer left and then follow Ngawaro all the way to SHWY5. Keep heading right, this is what I used and I knew the HWY was West of me so used this as guide....

Some of the tracks look navigable as the red dotted lines but two of these didn't link up and two of them ended up at gates to farmers paddocks. I then decided to keep to the Black dotted line as this was more reliable.

Hope you can use this Eddie and all of the others especially the Waikato boys..
I also hope these gates remain open, the chances are much better during the week I feel as gangs are in the forestry logging..

[Waihou Thumper]

I told you it was a good ride !!!. it would have been bloody cold up on the plateau today.Any Polar Bears??. Cheers.

Foggy and cold, yes....
Great riding though, nobody around and the whole forest to play in...:laugh:
With a smaller machine, the trails off to the left of Leslie are worth considering too. I went there with the Husaberg today and it was very rideable.....Good metal and some boggy bits but not a worry.

[Eddieb]

are you able to download it from the gps again, or did it delete it from the gps on download.

[Waihou Thumper]

are you able to download it from the gps again, or did it delete it from the gps on download.

It deleted from the GPS and shut off.....Bollocks!
Guess I will just have to do it again and this time I can hit waypoints - Markers at the intersections...

[Waihou Thumper]

Hi the trails this morning and went exploring. GPS was good and the tracks and roads were awesome. You could spend days in the forest....
Fantastic tracks and I will look at doing more over the next few weeks...
A big black pig ran right out in front of me, crossed the track and went into the bush, it was huge! :shit:

http://cid-f3b05d9018a20c31.skydrive.live.com/self.aspx/.Documents

[tribsanor]

Did it look both ways, did it wave ?

[CrazyFrog]

Was it this one?

[Waihou Thumper]

Did it look both ways, did it wave ?

Didn't even oink mate! Needed :2guns:coz it was a bloody monster....

It was this one's cousin, but black, wiry and BIG! This fella was round the back of the Rangitaiki Tavern. Don't know if was still there in the morning though. The fellas all had bacon and eggs fror brekkie...:shifty:

[That looks like fun]

Went through Cecil Rd, Leslie Rds on my way home from the multi M ride. Big boghole about 100mtrs long at Cecil Rd end (fortunatly it was frozen so the bimmer just bounced over it) then all good from there through. Noticed that both road end signs have "no exit" signs on them.
Not wanting to sound like me Grandmother but (always the but) the side Rds are all private forestry roads. Perhaps people going exploring for places to grow puha is the reason for the gates :mellow:
Ok so heres a road in my area that I should (but dont) know about. Arnold Rd, Jury Rd.
I was reading a mountain bike book today looking for new places to explore and it stated that this road still existed and that despite the farmers protestations to the contary it was a paper rd. Can anyone shed some light on this. It may not be Big Bike do able but worth a look :done:

[Waihou Thumper]

the side Rds are all private forestry roads. Perhaps people going exploring for places to grow puha is the reason for the gates :mellow:



Not all private, but, yes...Forestry roads. Not one of these was accessed around a locked gate. I did stike one gate and it was being closed and locked by a guy. He actually asked me if I wanted to come on through before he locked it out. I declined and went further exploring....:)