Target fixation: Can it be avoided?

[mujambee]

Today, coming from work, I was thinking about this target fixation thing and on a couple of corners did a simple experiment: keep my eyes on the inner side of the road but try to steer my bike on the outer (two lanes, no traffic). It more or less worked, but required some concentration.

Now the questions are:

Do you beleve with some training you could avoid target fixation and be able to steer your bike wherever you like?

Wold that be safer than trying to avoid looking at the obstacle?

You can always practice avoiding target fixation, it only requires an open area and a couple of lines in the ground, but it is difficult to find where to practise "non looking at obstacles" without heading into one.

[cowboyz]

while it is possible to look in one direction at make your bike go in another it is not good practice. Why would you want to?
Imagine this..
You come into a corner a little hot, there is a tree on the outter corner. It catches your eye. You have practiced looking somewhere your bike is not going so you gaze lovingly into the trees eyes (treehugger) and you get safety round the corner.

All this took years of practice and assumes that you dont freak out and run into it anyhow.

Or, you could just look where you want to go, ignore the tree altogether (the tree wont mind, really) and steer safety round the corner.

[MSTRS]

Target fixation...another way of saying Look where you are going - because you will go where you are looking.
Read this thread - you might find it useful. http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=91853

[yod]

I have suffered at the hands of the merciless TF God

Just say no.....

[cowboyz]

I have suffered at the hands of the merciless TF God

Just say no.....

And the punishing result is you are sentenced to ride a honda.

The implications are far and wide.

Just say No!

[MSTRS]

Some good stuff in here too... http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=93260&highlight=target+fixation

[Winston001]

I think Mujanbee is saying that we should avoid TF but need to steer the bike where it should go, rather than straight up the bank on the inside of a corner.

Must admit I'm in two minds about this. I try to look ahead to the vanishing point around the corner but it means I don't look at the road surface close to the front wheel. That leads to unpleasant surprises.

[mujambee]

I think Mujanbee is saying that we should avoid TF but need to steer the bike where it should go, rather than straight up the bank on the inside of a corner.

That's the point. Imagine you are carriying a tray of drinks on a room full of knee-height obstacles. You can't see the floor just in front of you, but somehow you are able to memorize where the obstacles are, and safely carry the drinks to the other end.

I wish I was able to do exactly the same thing with te bike, look at the obstacle but steer away from it. (if it was a car I want to make sure they don't suddenly open a door in front of me).


Must admit I'm in two minds about this. I try to look ahead to the vanishing point around the corner but it means I don't look at the road surface close to the front wheel. That leads to unpleasant surprises.

You need to practise two skills here: memory and "fast eye movement". Some time ago I saw a BBC show with Jeremy McClark and Colin McRae. They put a camera inside the car and filmed Colin's face when driving along a mud road. His eyes never stoped, it seemed like he was looking everywhere at the same time.

[sinfull]

They put a camera inside the car and filmed Colin's face when driving along a mud road. His eyes never stoped, it seemed like he was looking everywhere at the same time.

Don't you do that ?

[MSTRS]

His eyes never stoped, it seemed like he was looking everywhere at the same time.


Don't you do that ?

I do! Of course, plenty of caffeine helps...

[mujambee]

Don't you do that ?

I try, but can't do it fast enough. :(

I believe I'm better at memorizing everything in front of me. Usually I look far ahead and "register" the road, and only really look at potentially dangerous spots.

[sinfull]

I do! Of course, plenty of caffeine helps...
Haha true that but it's the jaw grinding i hate !

I try, but can't do it fast enough. :(

I believe I'm better at memorizing everything in front of me. Usually I look far ahead and "register" the road, and only really look at potentially dangerous spots.

I'd be practising the perifial vision rather than remembering "there's a raised pothole coming up ................ now" remembering obsticals is all part of it, but don't help ya on a new stretch of road ! Sure as hell don't look at the mountains while rushing to meet the ferry on the sth islands west coast, even if i had just travelled it, (example, as the mrs once said "weren't them snow covered mountains beautifull", after one trip down there, the three riders with me just laughed, knowing full well i didn't see no snow ! I aint done that trip near enough)

[BOGAR]

From my understanding of target fixation, it is like what was said above. If your going into a corner too hot and a tree catches your eye or you have some other reason to panic / upset your concentration and something then catches your eye, then you suddenly fixate on it. This is not something you want to do but you do anyway. You effectively become a possum in the headlights and its the fact that you are not looking where you want to go but at the object you hope you wont hit, so you go where you are looking and hit it any way. I think the skill you are trying to get is the confidence in your riding and bike to be able to snap out of it and look back to the correct line around the corner. I feel that over time if you try, you will start to under stand what causes it or what it feels like and with experience learn to control it. Track time is highly recommend I feel, as you have a chance to get to know your bike and its cornering abilities which is somewhere very safe. Certainly for me this has been a great place to un-learn breaking into a corner which has been my bad habit for a while.

[mujambee]

I'd be practising the perifial vision rather than remembering "there's a raised pothole coming up ................ now" remembering obsticals is all part of it, but don't help ya on a new stretch of road


I didn't explain well. What I really do is keep my eyes focused as much as possible at the end of my visible area, and register everything that "comes". Periferal vision helps me locate those things and when are at a good distance I focus my eyes on them for a split second then back ahead. If I identify it as danger then I change course to avoid contact.

Maybe periferal vision is what I was looking for with my original post. Keep your eyes focused when you want but be able to ride using that periferal vision.

[BOGAR]

Please delete

[cowboyz]

In my opinion, track riding teaches you how to ride on the track. Thats it. There are so many differences to road riding including levels of grip, distractions, camber on corners, room to run out a corner.

If you took at corner the same way on a country road as you do on the track then most likely will result in a mess.

Dont get me wrong, track riding is fun but I dont think it is a training ground for how to ride on the road.

[sinfull]

From my understanding of target fixation, it is like what was said above. If your going into a corner too hot and a tree catches your eye or you have some other reason to panic / upset your concentration and something then catches your eye, then you suddenly fixate on it. This is not something you want to do but you do anyway. .
Yeah simply put , coming in too hot, OMG if i go off i'm gonna hit that bank thereeeeeeeeee.............., if ya fast enough in correcting ya mindset and think/look, i'm going round the corner, trust ya tyres to handle it, more often than not ya come out with nothing more than a raised heart rate !


I didn't explain well. What I really do is keep my eyes focused as much as possible at the end of my visible area, and register everything that "comes". Periferal vision helps me locate those things and when are at a good distance I focus my eyes on them for a split second then back ahead. If I identify it as danger then I change course to avoid contact.

Maybe periferal vision is what I was looking for with my original post. Keep your eyes focused when you want but be able to ride usin that periferal vision.
Ok sorry i did misinterperate ya first post ! But using perifial or not using it, is dif than fixation !
Sorry Sandra for posting this up but it is a classic case of fixation ! She is more than capable of handling that speed round there, but ya can see the point where sh thought "Oh No, i'm gonna run off here and go there" !
Bloody good rider, ya see her slice past me on the str8 up to higgins and wanted to be up dallas's ass exiting that corner on the next lap to do the same to him !
Do have to dissagree with ya Lance but It is about personal beliefs lol what is learnt on the track can be taken back to the road i think, so long as ya aint riding at speed on the road !
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[samgab]

I reckon it's like people who speak a second language.
They might be fluent in that second language, but in a high stress situation they will often revert back to their first language.
Same with target fixation, I believe.
One could try to train to NOT target fixate in day-to-day situations, but in an emergency situation, I think, people would revert back to the basic, natural reaction; which is to target fixate.

I may not be correct in this, but I'm not willing to test the theory in a real emergency situation :)

[BOGAR]

Your right cowboyz about the track and road being different. It was just that I found the track a great place to practice my road rinding skills in a safe location. But that was why I have done them and will do more. I am not trying to race on the road but just to understand my bike better without some of the distractions that can happen. It allowed me to get comfortable with the track and then the bike which has made a huge improvement in the way I ride on the road (I can take the same corner at the same speed but feel much more comfortable in doing so and feel I can devote more of my concentration at where I am going not what I am doing.
Plus I get to as fast as I can down the long straights. :devil2::Punk: Track riding is certainly a lot of fun.:niceone: :clap:But i'm taking this off topic so sorry.

[FJRider]

Do you beleve with some training you could avoid target fixation and be able to steer your bike wherever you like?



This would require some thinking on the part of the rider... :eek5:

The degree of concentration required may be beyond the ability of some... :whistle:

[phoenixgtr]

Have you read Keith Code's "A twist of the wrist"?

He explains how to use your peripheral vision to identify objects and markers while focusing your vision where you want to go. i.e. focusing your vision where you're going all the time, but being able to move the focus of your attention from one thing to another instantaneously. There's even an excercise in there to practice the technique.

EDIT: You only have so much attention. As you become a better rider less of that attention needs to be spent on the operation of your bike and more can be spent on the hazards and the road

[mujambee]

Sorry Sandra for posting this up but it is a classic case of fixation ! She is more than capable of handling that speed round there, but ya can see the point where sh thought "Oh No, i'm gonna run off here and go there" !


Now for the same situation on an open road. Yo go into a left turn, and you are able to ride it, but a car comes in front of you. Your eyes lock on the car and, bang!, you end up in its windshield.

My point is: Could you train to ride in your lane, using periferal vision, while your eyes focus on that car? Or is it easier to try to learn not to look at it?

It's always advisable to have an eye on cars, but then again you can use your periferal vision on the car an focus on your lane.


I reckon it's like people who speak a second language.
They might be fluent in that second language, but in a high stress situation they will often revert back to their first language.


Not so. If you spend some time using your second language it replaces your mother tonge.
And this I know for sure, sometimes I even dream in english. ;)


Have you read Keith Code's "A twist of the wrist"?

He explains how to use your peripheral vision to identify objects and markers while focusing your vision where you want to go. i.e. focusing your vision where you're going all the time, but being able to move the focus of your attention from one thing to another instantaneously. There's even an excercise in there to practice the technique.

I'd really like to read that book, but it's impossible to find here in Spain. I'll have to try next time I go to UK.

[mujambee]

He explains how to use your peripheral vision to identify objects and markers while focusing your vision where you want to go. i.e. focusing your vision where you're going all the time, but being able to move the focus of your attention from one thing to another instantaneously. There's even an excercise in there to practice the technique.

Anyhow, there still remains the problem that your eyes will try to lock on whatever atracts your attention.




EDIT: You only have so much attention. As you become a better rider less of that attention needs to be spent on the operation of your bike and more can be spent on the hazards and the road

Good point there; all of this is only relevant if you have experience enough so you don't need to spare any conscious thinking on the handling of the bike.

[davebullet]

Peripheral vision is something you have to re-learn how to do after driving only a car like I did for many years. After all, your brain says to ignore peripheral vision, when all you see is roof pillars and a big bonnet.

[sinfull]

Now for the same situation on an open road. Yo go into a left turn, and you are able to ride it, but a car comes in front of you. Your eyes lock on the car and, bang!, you end up in its windshield.

My point is: Could you train to ride in your lane, using periferal vision, while your eyes focus on that car? Or is it easier to try to learn not to look at it?

It's always advisable to have an eye on cars, but then again you can use your periferal vision on the car an focus on your lane.



From personal experience i'd say shoot the gap and look where yr going, never tried focusing on the object while trying to navigate using perifial (sp) But being able to glare at the driver who cut ya off would be a good trick aye lol
Have seen an oncoming drivers gob open in shock in the perifial before though ! Was past him before he had a chance to think let alone react (one of them moments which helped make up my mind to take it to the track)

[cowboyz]

Yeah simply put , coming in too hot, OMG if i go off i'm gonna hit that bank thereeeeeeeeee.............., if ya fast enough in correcting ya mindset and think/look, i'm going round the corner, trust ya tyres to handle it, more often than not ya come out with nothing more than a raised heart rate !

I would guesstimate that most solo accidents happen from riders running out of road or hitting something rather than their tyres letting go. Alot simply due to target fixation, a few due to not using perificial (sp?) vision and not being aware of their surroundings.
I ride "reverse" where I ignore all hazzards and look for a safe line. If I cant find one I slow down until I can. The trade off with this style is that if anything really bizzare shows up I am likely to miss it (ie, cow standing in middle of road) but upside is it is really relaxing and I can ride for alot of ks without getting tired. So far it has worked for me. Nothing is 100% but noting every hazzard just sends my mind into overdrive about all the bad shit that could happen.
Ok sorry i did misinterperate ya first post ! But using perifial or not using it, is dif than fixation !
Sorry Sandra for posting this up but it is a classic case of fixation ! She is more than capable of handling that speed round there, but ya can see the point where sh thought "Oh No, i'm gonna run off here and go there" !
Who is the Sandra riding the blade? Looks good and mint video! It does look to me like she felt less grip on the left hand side of her tyre as she tupped in and bailed on it to avoid a lowside. (manfield can be cruel with spending so much time on the right hand side of the bike and so little on the left)
It doesnt look to me like a target fixation issue, more of a bail out issue. She may have made the hairpin but may not have too.
Bloody good rider, ya see her slice past me on the str8 up to higgins and wanted to be up dallas's ass exiting that corner on the next lap to do the same to him !
Do have to dissagree with ya Lance but It is about personal beliefs lol what is learnt on the track can be taken back to the road i think, so long as ya aint riding at speed on the road !


My point was that with all the obsticles taken away at the track it is a "fake" environment to fool one into thinking that their bike can do things it cant on the road. Main point in case is the ammount of room that is available to run out on the track that simply isnt there on the road and the heat in the tyres and available grip that is not present on the road. There are some roads that is it possible to get away with it, but over time it will cause grief.

[sinfull]

My point was that with all the obsticles taken away at the track it is a "fake" environment to fool one into thinking that their bike can do things it cant on the road. Main point in case is the ammount of room that is available to run out on the track that simply isnt there on the road and the heat in the tyres and available grip that is not present on the road. There are some roads that is it possible to get away with it, but over time it will cause grief.

Don't think Sandra is on KB but said sorry just in case ! Her man is a camera man and has the micky gear !
Surely you can't say that wasn't a classic case of fixation, sure she had lowsided in that corner on another trackday, that may have created some doubt, but still looks to me like it was a case of fixation !
Ok so ya have run offs at the track (in most cases) but your also doing up to 3- times the speed of road ! Be interested to see an experiment with heat in tyres on road compared to track and grip ??? Hello ! Lets say a third the speed of track, unless your using nylon tyres or ya hit an oil spill the grip would be twice that of the track due to the seal !
I've been doing track for 12 months now, last 5 of which i've not ridden on the road at all (personal choice). The knowledge i've gained from the track work would be easy to transfer to road at a third the speed ! Because it is a third the speed !
1) My braking, i KNOW i can pull the bike up from 240kph in 150m, get off the pics and drop the bike near on its side eccelerating and have it on its other side again in a distance of perhaps 8 m !
2) my tyres, i KNOW i can scrape my pegs with a metzeler racetec give it full twist and it will hang on (a conti sport will let go) add some road chip to that and the sport attack will more n likely hang on !
3) I KNOW if i lose the back wheel under power in a corner, if i release the gas completely the chances are i will highside rather than lowside, if i back off a litle i should regain control !
4) my reflexes in general have improved ! My awareness of whats going on around me has improved ! My knowledge of suspension set up has grown immencely,
Now you tell me i cant take that to the road and not be an improved rider ! (if i were to obey the speed limits)

[MSTRS]

. Be interested to see an experiment with heat in tyres on road compared to track and grip ??? Hello ! Lets say a third the speed of track, unless your using nylon tyres or ya hit an oil spill the grip would be twice that of the track due to the seal !


I'm not so sure about that. Tyres grip better when 'hot' which is why road sport tyres shred on the track...their grip exceeds their construction...they just don't get so hot on the road (usually :rolleyes:)
Also, with chip seal, unless it's new, the individual stones are polished smooth by all traffic, are often covered in tar bleed or diesel/oil/other shit. When new, the chip is sharp and will dig into the tyre, giving great grip and shudderingly huge wear.
The actual points of contact between tyre and surface is probably greater on the asphalt-type track finish.

[sinfull]

I'm not so sure about that. Tyres grip better when 'hot' which is why road sport tyres shred on the track...their grip exceeds their construction...they just don't get so hot on the road (usually :rolleyes:)
Also, with chip seal, unless it's new, the individual stones are polished smooth by all traffic, are often covered in tar bleed or diesel/oil/other shit. When new, the chip is sharp and will dig into the tyre, giving great grip and shudderingly huge wear.
The actual points of contact between tyre and surface is probably greater on the asphalt-type track finish.
You may be correct ! But the only slides i've ever had on road tyres, on the road, have always been on smooth surface bitchemyn never had an issue with seal, apart from like you say tar bleeding through but of course you ride to the conditions aye

[cowboyz]

Should probably take this to another thread but since we are here..


Don't think Sandra is on KB but said sorry just in case ! Her man is a camera man and has the micky gear !

awesome stuff with some fantastic editing.

Surely you can't say that wasn't a classic case of fixation, sure she had lowsided in that corner on another trackday, that may have created some doubt, but still looks to me like it was a case of fixation !
I watched it a few times and I say it was a bail. Added info that she had already lowsided previously in the same move would suggest even stronger that it was a bail rather than target fixation.

Ok so ya have run offs at the track (in most cases) but your also doing up to 3- times the speed of road ! Be interested to see an experiment with heat in tyres on road compared to track and grip ??? Hello ! Lets say a third the speed of track, unless your using nylon tyres or ya hit an oil spill the grip would be twice that of the track due to the seal !
I would love to see a study on it. Fair bit of guesswork going into my theory but racetracks and roads are not prepared the same. There is a reason for not using chipseal on racetracks. They are not roads.
I've been doing track for 12 months now, last 5 of which i've not ridden on the road at all (personal choice). The knowledge i've gained from the track work would be easy to transfer to road at a third the speed ! Because it is a third the speed !
Entering a hairpin at 60k/hr on the track compared to entering a hairpin at 60k/hr on the road does not equaite to a third of the speed. The difference comes into camber, availiable grip, heat of the tyres, runout room....
1) My braking, i KNOW i can pull the bike up from 240kph in 150m, get off the pics and drop the bike near on its side eccelerating and have it on its other side again in a distance of perhaps 8 m !
Agreed, however doing it on the track you know exactly where the corner is and how much space you have got. On the road, past that blind hairpin there may not be the same runoff, in fact, it is most likely that there is not the same runoff.
2) my tyres, i KNOW i can scrape my pegs with a metzeler racetec give it full twist and it will hang on (a conti sport will let go) add some road chip to that and the sport attack will more n likely hang on !
Again, it comes down to camber and the availiable grip levels. Are you saying that throwing your bike on its side and giving it a handful and it will never let go because you have done it on the track?
3) I KNOW if i lose the back wheel under power in a corner, if i release the gas completely the chances are i will highside rather than lowside, if i back off a litle i should regain control !
2 seconds ago you were claiming that you can lie the bike on its side and give it a handful and it wont let go, now you are losing the backend.....
4) my reflexes in general have improved ! My awareness of whats going on around me has improved ! My knowledge of suspension set up has grown immencely,
Now you tell me i cant take that to the road and not be an improved rider ! (if i were to obey the speed limits)

There are advantages about learning about how brakes and suspension and throttle and things work which will improve riding. The point remains that track riding will teach you how to ride on a track. Road riding will teach you how to ride on the road. There is the old argument is a "better" rider "better" because s/he is faster, or better because they dont crash.

[pritch]

Do you beleve with some training you could avoid target fixation and be able to steer your bike wherever you like?


I guess that's a yes. On the last few occasions when I became aware that I was staring at the threat, I moved my gaze to an avenue offering escape.

This was a conscious decision replacing the instinctive reaction. The conscious decision part would be a result of training.

[sinfull]

Should probably take this to another thread but since we are here..

Quote:
Originally Posted by sinfull
Don't think Sandra is on KB but said sorry just in case ! Her man is a camera man and has the micky gear !
awesome stuff with some fantastic editing.

Surely you can't say that wasn't a classic case of fixation, sure she had lowsided in that corner on another trackday, that may have created some doubt, but still looks to me like it was a case of fixation !
I watched it a few times and I say it was a bail. Added info that she had already lowsided previously in the same move would suggest even stronger that it was a bail rather than target fixation.
Ok comes down to what we each saw there don't it ! But i have spent a little time with her on the track now and seen her do that corner at that speed many a time !

Ok so ya have run offs at the track (in most cases) but your also doing up to 3- times the speed of road ! Be interested to see an experiment with heat in tyres on road compared to track and grip ??? Hello ! Lets say a third the speed of track, unless your using nylon tyres or ya hit an oil spill the grip would be twice that of the track due to the seal !
I would love to see a study on it. Fair bit of guesswork going into my theory but racetracks and roads are not prepared the same. There is a reason for not using chipseal on racetracks. They are not roads.
Agreed guesswork on my part too !

I've been doing track for 12 months now, last 5 of which i've not ridden on the road at all (personal choice). The knowledge i've gained from the track work would be easy to transfer to road at a third the speed ! Because it is a third the speed !
Entering a hairpin at 60k/hr on the track compared to entering a hairpin at 60k/hr on the road does not equaite to a third of the speed. The difference comes into camber, availiable grip, heat of the tyres, runout room....
Ok so pick on the slowest corner on the manfield track lol but it also comes down to practising that corner ! Are you trying to tell me that you would enter a hairpin you did not know like the back of yr hand of the same tightness, and camber even if you knew your tyres were warm, at 60kph ?

1) My braking, i KNOW i can pull the bike up from 240kph in 150m, get off the pics and drop the bike near on its side eccelerating and have it on its other side again in a distance of perhaps 8 m !
Agreed, however doing it on the track you know exactly where the corner is and how much space you have got. On the road, past that blind hairpin there may not be the same runoff, in fact, it is most likely that there is not the same runoff.
Comon Lance now why would i be doing 240 k on the road or a hairpin i don't know at 60 kph for that matter ? What i was saying is, i have learnt so much about my bike, its capabilities and my own, if i were to come across a situation (say a couple of cows as i'm rounding a corner) i could get on the pics, get off em lay it over one way, stand it up and lay it the other way and know i can ! Why cause i have done it hundreds of times now ! Wont say i'd get away with it but now i would try whereas 12 months ago i would probably just gone into them sideways ! (Nah done it once on a harley at the ton and got through a heard of em after leaving the rise out of martinborough on one wheel and picked my way through em)

2) my tyres, i KNOW i can scrape my pegs with a metzeler racetec give it full twist and it will hang on (a conti sport will let go) add some road chip to that and the sport attack will more n likely hang on !
Again, it comes down to camber and the availiable grip levels. Are you saying that throwing your bike on its side and giving it a handful and it will never let go because you have done it on the track?
I am saying that i have learnt the capabilities of the tyres i use and their limits lance and yes i have done it on the track, but again its where to give it the handfull and yes i learnt that on the track !

3) I KNOW if i lose the back wheel under power in a corner, if i release the gas completely the chances are i will highside rather than lowside, if i back off a litle i should regain control !
2 seconds ago you were claiming that you can lie the bike on its side and give it a handful and it wont let go, now you are losing the backend.....
Stop trying to twist it Lance, read the bit again where it says a conti sport will let go ie road tyre not putting them down but hey i learnt their capabilities Where you ask haha on the fucking track

4) my reflexes in general have improved ! My awareness of whats going on around me has improved ! My knowledge of suspension set up has grown immencely,
Now you tell me i cant take that to the road and not be an improved rider ! (if i were to obey the speed limits)

There are advantages about learning about how brakes and suspension and throttle and things work which will improve riding. The point remains that track riding will teach you how to ride on a track. Road riding will teach you how to ride on the road. There is the old argument is a "better" rider "better" because s/he is faster, or better because they dont crash.

This bit is good and i'll say it again LIMITS ! I have learnt a few LIMITS at the track so i can adapt them for road riding, The bikes limits and a few of my own !
The track riding hasn't taught me how to ride faster lance, my bike could do 246 before i took it to the track and in fact it used to do it quite often on the road as you well know ! It handled ok i guess back then, but there were a few very hairy moments where i OUTRODE MY ABILITIES !
I haven't slowed any mate, i stopped road riding altogether for a while(personal choice) I have never crashed on the track where as i felt i was pushing a few too many limits on the road !
Yes i used to have fixation moments on the road and track too, can think of a couple of occasions it happened while out on a manawatu ride in fact ! Think i now have that under controll also

[cowboyz]

I am not trying to twist what you are saying and not suggesting that full braking practice at 240 is why one rides tracks in any case.
Just putting my side of the argument forward that track riding teaches how to ride tracks and road riding teaches how to ride roads. There a a few things that intertwine between the 2 yes, but a good road rider does not make a good track rider, and by the same token, a fast racer does not always make a good road rider.
Racetracks are there to go fast. That is their design and purpose. Roads are there so people can travel from one place to another without getting stuck in paddocks.
I am not attacking your ability to ride a bike nor the girl on the R6? From what I have seen of your track riding you are doing are fab job and have decided to keep it on the track where you can go as fast as you like - what it is designed for. That is a choice you have made to do something you enjoy. I, for comparison, like to tour and do 600-1000km days and see all sorts of different parts of the country. It is not better - just different. I enjoy getting on the track but I dont do every trackday and the ones I do, there are plenty of peeps giving me the learn. I dont pretend to be super fast. Just enjoying doing what I do.

The main overview is that track riding teaches one to ride a track. There are plenty of things that come into play like learning the track and learning the corners, where and when you can get that bit more out of a corner or your bike. The advantage is, of course you are riding the same corners over and over again that you can learn from and your bike and tyres (providing setup is good) a level of grip that is always there.
On the road there are different cambers, surfaces, shit on the road and things keep changing.

[Neon]

Back to target fixation...

Samgab has a good point about reverting back. We are hardwired to assess threats by whatever means necessary in order to invoke fight / flight reaction (e.g. hmm what's that lion doing over there...) Not much you can do about that. Granted you can override your survival reactions but it is a conscious process - and that's where knowing your limits comes in. If your brain believes you are in control of the situation, you can look where you like. Problem being that in most emergency situations things just happen too fast for our poor brains to process.

So, you have very little control over how you will react if survival instincts engage, but you CAN move the fear threshold. :niceone:

[Motu]

You need to divert the target fixation to escape routes....using the same force to a better use.You can practice and train your mind as you ride - in every situation imagine it all going wrong,and pick and escape route...off road riders call it picking a line.They scan ahead and choose one of many lines to take.On the road there are many escape routes to your ''oh shit!'' moment,you should always have one for every situation.Properly trained,when you go ''oh shit!'',you will automatically start scaning for the best escape plan....takes a nano second or two,and that's plenty of time when things go wrong.

[mujambee]

Back to target fixation...

Samgab has a good point about reverting back. We are hardwired to assess threats by whatever means necessary in order to invoke fight / flight reaction (e.g. hmm what's that lion doing over there...) Not much you can do about that. Granted you can override your survival reactions but it is a conscious process - and that's where knowing your limits comes in. If your brain believes you are in control of the situation, you can look where you like. Problem being that in most emergency situations things just happen too fast for our poor brains to process.

So, you have very little control over how you will react if survival instincts engage, but you CAN move the fear threshold. :niceone:

Problem is probably there, instincts. Have done a little more testing and noticed that on normal conditions you can look wherever you like and the bike goes where you want it to go. In fact, I've noticed I do it all the time; when riding among stalled cars I look into their mirrors while steering on periferal vision.

It's only on emergency situations, when instincts take control, when target fixation puts you in trouble, so I don't believe what I wanted to do is possible.

It's like killing trolls with a knife; Not that it can't be done, but you need a lot of practice, and no one gets to practise two times (Terry Pratchet)



You need to divert the target fixation to escape routes....using the same force to a better use.You can practice and train your mind as you ride - in every situation imagine it all going wrong,and pick and escape route...off road riders call it picking a line.They scan ahead and choose one of many lines to take.On the road there are many escape routes to your ''oh shit!'' moment,you should always have one for every situation.Properly trained,when you go ''oh shit!'',you will automatically start scaning for the best escape plan....takes a nano second or two,and that's plenty of time when things go wrong.

My fellow cyclist say I'm mad, because I go downhill twice as fast as any of them (not so, but faster). I tell them that my brain is trained to pick routes much faster than any of them can.




And on the track/road debate; I've found that usually trackers make slower and safer riders on the road. Probably comes from the fact that you are much more aware of the dangers out there when you have ridden without them. Anyhow, track riding allows you to bring your base riding skills to a level you can't reach on the road (braking, cornering, drifting...).

So if you mean that riding on track makes you a safer road rider the answer is yes, but if you mean that track training allows you to go faster on the road, the answer is probably no.

Here you have plenty of dummy trolls to knive.

[MarkH]

I think that there are 2 important things to do to be a better rider:
1. ride (as often as possible)
2. be critical of everything you do - i.e. think about what you do, why and how you could improve.

In an attempt to improve your riding a good exercise would be to pick your route and look in that direction. i.e. notice the pothole and notice the man hole cover then look to the path between them and go that way, don't keep looking at the pothole because it is not moving and it will always be where you first saw it, just look through the route you have chosen and beyond.

I started riding at 18 years old and rode for about 3 years, then I drove a car for about 20 years, then about 6 months ago I started riding. After 20 years of not riding I found it a little awkward at first and things didn't come as naturally as I would have liked. But I rode a bit, then did an RRRS course (very good for identifying your bad habits and explaining what you should be looking at and thinking about) and I rode some more. Now I have racked up over 16,000 kms of riding and I am finding it all comes much more naturally then at first. I still like to think about what I am doing and why, you should alway be learning!

[samgab]

I think that there are 2 important things to do to be a better rider:
1. ride (as often as possible)
2. be critical of everything you do - i.e. think about what you do, why and how you could improve.

In an attempt to improve your riding a good exercise would be to pick your route and look in that direction. i.e. notice the pothole and notice the man hole cover then look to the path between them and go that way, don't keep looking at the pothole because it is not moving and it will always be where you first saw it, just look through the route you have chosen and beyond.

I started riding at 18 years old and rode for about 3 years, then I drove a car for about 20 years, then about 6 months ago I started riding. After 20 years of not riding I found it a little awkward at first and things didn't come as naturally as I would have liked. But I rode a bit, then did an RRRS course (very good for identifying your bad habits and explaining what you should be looking at and thinking about) and I rode some more. Now I have racked up over 16,000 kms of riding and I am finding it all comes much more naturally then at first. I still like to think about what I am doing and why, you should alway be learning!

Are you the Burgman who filtered past me Northbound on the Mangere Bridge this afternoon, then took the Royal Oak turnoff? I was on my way to the North Shore to get new tyres.

[Mr Merde]

My advice to avoiding "Target Fixation" it to keep your eyes closed

[MarkH]

Are you the Burgman who filtered past me Northbound on the Mangere Bridge this afternoon, then took the Royal Oak turnoff? I was on my way to the North Shore to get new tyres.

That might have been me. Unless you saw me do something bad, because then it would have been my evil twin.

[Movistar]

I read somewhere and pratice all the time:

"Look at nothing, but see everything..."

You can take the piss out of this simple explanation if you want (and you will) but once you get it, and use it, it does make sense.

[Clubbie]

Is it just me, or do others find it hard to actively look where you want to go rather than at the looming-going-to-kill-me obstacle during a severe "oh shiiiiiiit" moment?

I can do it but notice that on the couple of occasions I've had to do it, it's a conscious thing you have to put effort into. The mind is going "But look at that big nasty, look, look!"

All the while your conscious thought is going "don't look, don't look"

Comments?

[MSTRS]

Yeah, I'd agree with that.
Possibly ironic, but those that have ridden for years without lots of :eek: moments will maybe not cope well when presented with one?? For all their experience, they have not had much practice at coping with puckertime...

[mujambee]

Yeah, I'd agree with that.
Possibly ironic, but those that have ridden for years without lots of :eek: moments will maybe not cope well when presented with one?? For all their experience, they have not had much practice at coping with puckertime...

That's me ;)

[XP@]

I reckon it's like people who speak a second language.
They might be fluent in that second language, but in a high stress situation they will often revert back to their first language.
Same with target fixation, I believe.
One could try to train to NOT target fixate in day-to-day situations, but in an emergency situation, I think, people would revert back to the basic, natural reaction; which is to target fixate.

I may not be correct in this, but I'm not willing to test the theory in a real emergency situation :)

I find the opposite, possibly because learning a second language is stressful. I sometimes swap to French when tired or stressed (and not just to use expletives).

I use target fixation to my advantage, when i realise i am fixating I think "wrong target" and fixate on a better target like my way out.

[MarkH]

I use target fixation to my advantage, when i realise i am fixating I think "wrong target" and fixate on a better target like my way out.

I think this is the obvious solution - look for an exit route and fixate on that, do everything you can to focus on that gap and make it through. Look to the gap, not the objects on either side of the gap!

[quickbuck]

I think this is the obvious solution - look for an exit route and fixate on that, do everything you can to focus on that gap and make it through. Look to the gap, not the objects on either side of the gap!

Aha, I agree....
I was thinking about this thread on my way home today.
See, I have been riding so long that many things are done subconsciously, so I have to think about what I'm doing to analyse what I'm doing....

Anyhow, I noticed as I ride along the road following traffic, I never actually look at the back of the car/ truck/ motorcycle in front of me at all.
I always look around them. The vehicle is kept in my peripheral vision.

Two reasons I don't look at the back of vehicles:
Firstly is because I'm always looking for a way past.
Secondly so I never actually target fixate on the back of the vehicle in front.

The consequence of this is that I'm always looking at the escape route.

Can I see brake lights in my peripheral vision?
Well, Yes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peripheral_vision), Can't tell truly if they are red lights coming on... but any light coming on at the rear of a vehicle is enough for me to take action.

[mujambee]

Anyhow, I noticed as I ride along the road following traffic, I never actually look at the back of the car/ truck/ motorcycle in front of me at all.
I always look around them. The vehicle is kept in my peripheral vision.


I tend to look at their mirrors. If I can see their face, they can see mine.

[dpex]

Way back during early 1995, World Gliding Championships (which a NZ pilot won, may I add) I heard a polish pilot radio-call 'Kilo Delta Tango' 10K.

That meant the pilot was 10K's away from the finish line and at an altitude which would allow him to push forward on the stick to bring the glider up to full noise....In his case, in that plane, about 140 Knots before the wings started to shudder, prior to snapping off. AKA VNE. Velocity Not Exceeded.

This rooster clearly got a bad dose of tartget-fixation because he kept the nose down, at 140+ knots all the way into the river which sweeps across at right-angles to the airfiled. Yup. He stuck it in the river at 140 Knots and walked away to tell the tale which went, more or less: 'I don't know why I didn't pull up to miss the river.'

Yet another $350-something K aircraft was destroyed.

The key to the second part of this story is the "I don't know,' bit.

This afternoon I was tooling along, following, what turned out to be a Chinese lad, on a 90cc scooter. He was bent down low, giving it death at 55Kph.

For reasons neither he nor I could ascertain; instead of pootling around the large round-about ahead, he simply went straight at it.

That the cage coming from his right missed him is yet another wonder, yet he did.

And so Chong Ho, for that was his name, hit the round-about edging. The front wheel rose into the air, the back wheel (now floating in free space) floated under, and Chong Ho ended up landing right smack in the middle of a pristine flower-bed, clutching his scooter betwixt his legs, looking for all the world like a Nun who had just found out the truth about Father O'Clarity.

Zero damage to both scooter and scootee. Major damage to the flower-bed.

The cop, about four cars behind, pulled up, as did I. We rushed over to find Chong Ho unhurt. The cop asked, 'What happened?'

Chong Ho just looked rather startled and replied, 'I'a donna know.' Then looked left and right and said, 'Vera bufital flowers.'

I reckon it was target fixation and made a mental note that I really have to do something about concealing my extremely delicious touchee before some lunatic gets fixated on it and.....Well, the 'ands' are endless.

[Weta]

classic story imagine if Chong Ho wad a few more HP between his thighs he may have cleared the roundabout completely and enjoyed the view more in the stye of aforementioned glider pilot.

[mujambee]

Poor Chonh Ho, his oriental love for beauty could have easily got him killed.

Anyhow, a good lesson to be learned there: forget about the sights, keep your attention where it belongs.


P.D.: Joking in the knowledge that only damage was to pride and flowers. Had a good lough recreating that 'Vera butifal flowers'.