Pro-Twin discussion

[wayne]

in reply to robert,
well karl won every race and i think sam was beaten fair and squarely by mr jones at ruapuna, compare apples with apples..........i believe they both deserved there wins, and everyone had fun........

[Robert Taylor]

in reply to robert,
well karl won every race and i think sam was beaten fair and squarely by mr jones at ruapuna, compare apples with apples..........i believe they both deserved there wins, and everyone had fun........

Yes indeed, no argument. And the point I was trying to make is the improvement in lap times was not all about the riders.

[svr]

Yes indeed, no argument. And the point I was trying to make is the improvement in lap times was not all about the riders.

It's a valid point. For a `control class' there is now quite a bit of additional cost and development involved in producing a competitive bike.

[Robert Taylor]

It's a valid point. For a `control class' there is now quite a bit of additional cost and development involved in producing a competitive bike.

All perfectly within the letter of the rules and isnt it human nature to make things as best as possible within the rules?

[GSVR]

All perfectly within the letter of the rules and isnt it human nature to make things as best as possible within the rules?

The letter of the rules is an interesting concept Robert. Having looked closely at many ProTwin bikes I find almost universally all have had their emission control canisters and pipework removed which if you read the rules is definately not allowed!

Funny how some stuff that is spotted that is technically legal is pursued and other stuff is just overlooked. Possibly it has something to do with the knowlege of the people doing the checks or who is instructing them.

[svracer12]

please go into this more. i need some more horsepower.:lol:

[GSVR]

please go into this more. i need some more horsepower.:lol:

Well if your in ProTwin there is no worry as everyones got the same HP.

My thoughts on why Sam is so fast is he gets on the gas sooner and harder out of corners and brakes later and less into corners than his fellow competitors.

He's also reasonably light and has for want of a better word "balls".

[Robert Taylor]

The letter of the rules is an interesting concept Robert. Having looked closely at many ProTwin bikes I find almost universally all have had their emission control canisters and pipework removed which if you read the rules is definately not allowed!

Funny how some stuff that is spotted that is technically legal is pursued and other stuff is just overlooked. Possibly it has something to do with the knowlege of the people doing the checks or who is instructing them.

Fair enough points. I should have clarified my particular interest, suspension. I have little interest in engines other than having to ''accomodate'' some abrupt power delivery curves that can tie suspension in knots.

[Robert Taylor]

Well if your in ProTwin there is no worry as everyones got the same HP.

My thoughts on why Sam is so fast is he gets on the gas sooner and harder out of corners and brakes later and less into corners than his fellow competitors.

He's also reasonably light and has for want of a better word "balls".

Theres a very simple mod we do to the emulators that allows later braking and better ride height control. Note also that the first two placegetters in both Formula 3 and Pro-Twins ( all SV650 mounted unless the green meanies had their way ) all use Ohlins TTX36. Notwithstanding harping on like a broken record about the damping control virtues of these twin tube shocks there is another sizable advantage in their construction that can be accomodated within a ''normal'' Ohlins shock and was doubtless in Karl Morgans WP shock last year...The TOP OUT SPRING. The advantage of a top out spring is that it offsets / counteracts the effect of spring preload at the top of shock stroke / re-extension action. The shock is more supple at the top of its stroke which gives more sidegrip but also during that last part of re-extension it doesnt top out as violently and can also allow a ''softer'' low speed rebound calibration delivering further traction. The effect is you can go in later on the brakes and this is what every rider has told us.
In our box of tuning goodies we have 6 different top out springs alone for TTX36 and we often strip shocks to test just those as a combination.
If anyone remembers Ronnie Dewys from years past he was a very effective peddler of an Aprilia RSV1000. The standard oem Ohlins shock supplied for those didnt have a top out spring so we installed one. Instantly his laptimes dropped and the comment was ''I can brake later''
At Phillip Island Superbike tests last year I removed the top out springs out of Chris Walkers and Katsu Fujiwaras WSS Kwaka 600s as a test ( TTX36 equipped ) and recalibrated the rebound so that the top of stroke re-extension character was like a Penske character ( a company that doesnt use top out springs ) The riders after two sessions asked for the springs to be refitted as their lap times deteriorated and the data traces supported why. ( The Kawasakis were slow all year due to horsepower deficit )
Fast forward to this year. Peter Tanner is a very fast Aprilia RSV1000 rider who was using the oem ''non top out spring'' Ohlins. We recently custom made a TTX36 for that bike and instantly he was faster and mirrored Ronnies comments.
Winning races is also about an ongoing technological battle and that is one reason ''technophobes'' are attracted to a sport such as motorcycle racing. It should not be sanitised too much as it is about much much more than about the riders.

[Ivan]

Interesting read there.
So does the Ohlins I run use the top out spring?

Im going to try and make my Pro twin suspension as good as I can get it with inside the rules.

[Robert Taylor]

Interesting read there.
So does the Ohlins I run use the top out spring?

Im going to try and make my Pro twin suspension as good as I can get it with inside the rules.

Its an option on that type of shock and it can be fitted. Usually though it does also involve fitting a longer shaft to accomodate the extra length that the spring and its holder mechanism takes up. That also has to be consistent with ensuring there is still adequate internal clearance at shock full closed position. I do trade good shafts so it may be a viable option when the shock is due for rebuild.

[wayne]

Pro Twin is still slow to get going regettably. It really has the potential to revitalise the both the club and national scene with predominantly young, developing riders. We all all want that....don't we?
I have huge respect for Robert taylor, but I hope his comments don't discourage riders into thinking you need very expensive suspension parts and Robert on "speed dial" to get a look in. It's worth tempering this by reminding readers that the Ruapuna round was won, two race wins and including the GP by Patrick Jones. This bike owes him less than 5 grand. It started as a $2000 wreck in Auckland (anyone could have bought it). No new parts, all straightened with a bit of ingenuity. A $400 "nobody" shock off trademe, the emulators, dampers, spacers and springs all home made. Even the fork oil was home made, a brew of ATF and 20/50 engine oil from the Warehouse.
By all means get the best, but remember what the class is really for, getting young riders out there. The low spec bikes of Carl Morgan and Patrick this year show it still "can be done".

The main risk to Pro Twin is cheating. SVR is right, looking at a lot of bikes there is obvious "no compliances" all over them. Different brakes, subframes
not to mention the apparent horsepower differences. It was noticeable, no way can it explained away by "better drive / lighter rider" This year is over, I just hope next year there is tighter tech control to prevent these suspicions
false or not, ruining the freindships, respect and support you hope to see between the riders.

[svr]

Even the fork oil was home made, a brew of ATF and 20/50 engine oil from the Warehouse.

Cool - I used 30wt engine oil last year!

The main risk to Pro Twin is cheating. SVR is right, looking at a lot of bikes there is obvious "no compliances" all over them. Different brakes, subframes
not to mention the apparent horsepower differences. It was noticeable, no way can it explained away by "better drive / lighter rider" This year is over, I just hope next year there is tighter tech control to prevent these suspicions
false or not, ruining the freindships, respect and support you hope to see between the riders.

I didn't say that at all.
However, it does seem that there is bugger-all speed difference between highly developed F3 sv's (with `on the gas', lightweight riders) and some PT SVs!

[johnsv650]

are you saying a bike which cost less than 5k won a national gp title, so racing at the top is possible on a smallish budget.
and before that he raced a streetstock which seem very cheap to purchase also, and his sv would be competitive for how many years...??????
seems a cheaper way to go than those expensive gp 125 bikes

[johnsv650]

i have noticed more (sorry guys) older mature riders going to club days and having alot of fun and some going quick also, others having alot of fun racing in there own group.........
good to see the older wiser guys helping the young x streetstock riders also.

[Robert Taylor]

Pro Twin is still slow to get going regettably. It really has the potential to revitalise the both the club and national scene with predominantly young, developing riders. We all all want that....don't we?
I have huge respect for Robert taylor, but I hope his comments don't discourage riders into thinking you need very expensive suspension parts and Robert on "speed dial" to get a look in. It's worth tempering this by reminding readers that the Ruapuna round was won, two race wins and including the GP by Patrick Jones. This bike owes him less than 5 grand. It started as a $2000 wreck in Auckland (anyone could have bought it). No new parts, all straightened with a bit of ingenuity. A $400 "nobody" shock off trademe, the emulators, dampers, spacers and springs all home made. Even the fork oil was home made, a brew of ATF and 20/50 engine oil from the Warehouse.
By all means get the best, but remember what the class is really for, getting young riders out there. The low spec bikes of Carl Morgan and Patrick this year show it still "can be done".

The main risk to Pro Twin is cheating. SVR is right, looking at a lot of bikes there is obvious "no compliances" all over them. Different brakes, subframes
not to mention the apparent horsepower differences. It was noticeable, no way can it explained away by "better drive / lighter rider" This year is over, I just hope next year there is tighter tech control to prevent these suspicions
false or not, ruining the freindships, respect and support you hope to see between the riders.

No, no intention of discouragement whatsoever. Human nature is such that those with the means ( or often the committment and a way of finding the means ) will aspire to having the best quality kit. We in fact have options for all budgets from Race Tech respecs to full blown WSBK technology.
Right now we are checking copyright protection on emulators because another party that I know of has raided the same intellectual property for some volume. That the manufacturer ( who spent thousands of development hours and investment ) takes a VERY dim view of. Piracy is 7% of the worlds economic turnover and it is no surprise that companies ( such as for example Ohlins ) have a full time staff member sniffing out such acts.
Just imagine how much faster the rider could have been with even better kit, aided by local track knowledge. A championship is about being consistently near the top at all rounds, precisely why Sam won.

[svr]

The main risk to Pro Twin is cheating

No, it's people not turning up to race

[White trash]

No, it's people not turning up to race
A very good point.

I think if I was to race in this class, I would be particularly welcoming of mandatory "Tech inspections" after each National round.

Say, for example, the three top placing bikes and two randomly chosen from the field tech inspected immediately at the close of the final race. That should scare away the people that would be inclined to bend the rule book (and I'm not saying there nesescarily is anyone) and ensure a perfectly flat playing field.

I think alot of racers, especially new comers as in the pro twins class, are reluctant to lodge a formal protest when they believe something to be amiss for fear of being labeled a cry baby. Such a procedure would alleviate this stress

[slowpoke]

No, it's people not turning up to race

Yup.

People get too caught up in "I haven't got this widget" or "so and so's got a titanium grease nipple" when most of the time they wouldn't know what to do with it if they had it.

Unless something is actually limiting your lap time there's no point in upgrading it. It takes a Pete Tanner type skill to be able to ride to the limits of an Aprilia RSV Factory, therefore he could see a change in laptimes when the limits were changed. I on the other hand, along with most other racers, should just concentrate on getting closer to those limits in the first place rather than improving a bike they aren't yet maximising.

Seriously, what effect does an aftermarket subframe (for example) really have on your laptimes? There's more weight difference involved with a decision about having a pre or post race crap, so why throw the toys outta the cot?

Edit: Jimmy's slipped in a swifty while I've been pecking away. Serious tech inspections are an ugly can o' worms I reckon. Where do you stop? Do we pull forks apart to check Robert hasn't had his sticky fingers somewhere he shouldn't have? Pull engines apart? Who's gonna do that and pay for reassembly? In theory, yes there should be some checks and balances involved, given human nature, but in practice the solution could be worse than the problem.

[Benk]

I on the other hand, along with most other racers, should just concentrate on getting closer to those limits in the first place rather than improving a bike they aren't yet maximising.

A great point. One which can easily be lost in the hype.

[White trash]

Edit: Jimmy's slipped in a swifty while I've been pecking away. Serious tech inspections are an ugly can o' worms I reckon. Where do you stop? Do we pull forks apart to check Robert hasn't had his sticky fingers somewhere he shouldn't have? Pull engines apart? Who's gonna do that and pay for reassembly? In theory, yes there should be some checks and balances involved, given human nature, but in practice the solution could be worse than the problem.

Gotta be quick Spud, we're either fast, or we're last :)

Agree completely, I'm not talking tear downs unless a protest is lodged that requires one. Simply a quick once over, lift the tank, make sure everything's as it should. Emission bullshit is still on the exhaust (which Garry's already pointed out should be but isn't on almost all the bikes, maybe scrap that rule) and that sort of thing.

[Deano]

It was noticeable, no way can it explained away by "better drive / lighter rider" .

I have chased another pro twin SV out of the sweeper at Manfeild (never normally got near him before that)

I know I got on the gas before he did cause I nearly ran into the back of him, yet he still pulled away - I couldn't even draught him.

I put it down to him being lighter and possibly more HP. I don't know whether his cams have been dialled in as that is about the only thing left for me to do and still stay within the rules.

[Deano]

Whereabouts should the emmission crap be located on the zorst ?

I will have to check mine. I bought it as is and haven't removed it myself but.....

[White trash]

Whereabouts should the emmission crap be located on the zorst ?

I will have to check mine. I bought it as is and haven't removed it myself but.....
Sorry, just re read Garrys post and he's talking about the intake canisters and pipework. All that horrible shit under the airbox that goes from the throttle bodies and the like.

[GSVR]

When the rules where introduced there was much discussion on why certain modifications from the standard bikes where allowed. I argued long and hard that the bikes where allowed to many mods from a standard bike. My main arguement was that all these mods allowed was for more experienced racers with better resources and knowlege to come in and dominate the class.

I often wonder what the class would have been like if no mods where allowed and people could race a standard bike with only the minimum necessary work to make it suitable for the track. ie Streetstock 650. My guess has always been that format would have seen huge numbers entering because you could enter any eligable roadbike and have it race ready in less than day.

Thanks WT

The emission control that people are asking about comes from the camshaft covers and fuel tank etc. Its all there to meet emmission standards and does nothing to make the bike any slower or faster but it could be agued that removing it saves some weight. I just mentioned it to show although the rules are very good in comparsion to the F3 rules they still need refining more.

For me we have the rules as they are now and thats the end of it... If Deano or others want to ask me how to make their bikes faster legally (within the rules) I'm happy to help if I can but some of the options are very expensive.

[Racey Rider]

Is "Pro-twins" only for 650cc four strokes or can other twins (say a RGV250) be included? Guess the rules are at the MNZ site. will see what I can find.

Edit: My useless computer won't open the MNZ pdf files. so can't know.

[White trash]

When the rules where introduced there was much discussion on why certain modifications from the standard bikes where allowed. I argued long and hard that the bikes where allowed to many mods from a standard bike. My main arguement was that all these mods allowed was for more experienced racers with better resources and knowlege to come in and dominate the class.

I often wonder what the class would have been like if no mods where allowed and people could race a standard bike with only the minimum necessary work to make it suitable for the track. ie Streetstock 650. My guess has always been that format would have seen huge numbers entering because you could enter any eligable roadbike and have it race ready in less than day.

Thanks WT

The emission control that people are asking about comes from the camshaft covers and fuel tank etc. Its all there to meet emmission standards and does nothing to make the bike any slower or faster but it could be agued that removing it saves some weight. I just mentioned it to show although the rules are very good in comparsion to the F3 rules they still need refining more.

For me we have the rules as they are now and thats the end of it... If Deano or others want to ask me how to make their bikes faster legally (within the rules) I'm happy to help if I can but some of the options are very expensive.
I think that's ideally what the direction it should head in. The thing is, RG150s carsh VERY well and can be fixed at minimal cost. An SV650 has expensive parts on it. For example, mufflers, footpeg hangers, handle bars and the like.

Personally, I think Pro Twins SHOULD be a street stock 650 class, however it's just not do-able with the cost of replacement parts.

[FROSTY]

I think that's ideally what the direction it should head in. The thing is, RG150s carsh VERY well and can be fixed at minimal cost. An SV650 has expensive parts on it. For example, mufflers, footpeg hangers, handle bars and the like.

Personally, I think Pro Twins SHOULD be a street stock 650 class, however it's just not do-able with the cost of replacement parts. In fear of sounding like a stuck record I happen to agree with GSVR
I made my objections to the level of permissable modifications to pro twins bikes right from day 1
One example-- full exhaust systems-Power commanders,cam dialing ,.
Heres how I saw it go down-
Welll now hang on -if they crash the factory mufflers gonna be expensive to replace therefore aftermarket mufflers should be allowed Yep Fair enough
Then someone in their wisdom came up with the idea that on injected SV's you cant replace just the muffler.(incorrect incidently) Therefore you "need " to fit a full system.Hang on the M4 system is good for 4-6hp so the guys that wanna win fit M4 or similar.
Ohh but hang on the fuelling will be wrong so we need a Pc to dial in the injection. Ohh but then the cam timings gonna be wrong so slot the cam wheels and dial em in.
WOOOA there -$kaching $2500 -$4000
Now the intent of the rule was to reduce cost so--how about NO pc and no cam dialling and yep you can replace the end can. --Now only $300
Ya see where Im goin with this? --again stuck record I know
I dont agree with WT that theres a lot of expensive bits that break. lets take a lesson from the past here
Yep you need rad protectors and oggies but stuff like pegs and peg hangers Gee I know Billy was casting up RGV250 hangers and selling em for about $20 a side back in the 250 proddy days so thats easy to replicate.
Handlebars wise I had a set of welded steel clip ons on my SV when I first got it---they were fine.
How about its easy.yes you can fit cheap alternative pegs and bars -but they must look the same as factory
Suspension wise I agree that the commuter suspension on SV's and ER's is orrible but There should be a $ limit to the shocks used
Say $2000 for front n rear which last time I suggested this Robert indicated would get a reasonable set up.

Basicly My thinking is PT should be --rock into bike shop Buy bike.
Spend $3000 on rubber ,muffler and suspension. Go race


What I found really funny is that the poms have been running a "low cost" series called Mini twins. with great success for many years.
We didn't need to reinvent the wheel--the wheel was there complete with yes a union jack on it but none the less built finished tried and true. The one rule that stuck in my mind was the 75hp limit and limited suspension mods

[White trash]

Ummm, yeah mate. I agree.

[lostinflyz]

Pro Twin is still slow to get going regettably. It really has the potential to revitalise the both the club and national scene with predominantly young, developing riders. We all all want that....don't we?
I have huge respect for Robert taylor, but I hope his comments don't discourage riders into thinking you need very expensive suspension parts and Robert on "speed dial" to get a look in. It's worth tempering this by reminding readers that the Ruapuna round was won, two race wins and including the GP by Patrick Jones. This bike owes him less than 5 grand. It started as a $2000 wreck in Auckland (anyone could have bought it). No new parts, all straightened with a bit of ingenuity. A $400 "nobody" shock off trademe, the emulators, dampers, spacers and springs all home made. Even the fork oil was home made, a brew of ATF and 20/50 engine oil from the Warehouse.
By all means get the best, but remember what the class is really for, getting young riders out there. The low spec bikes of Carl Morgan and Patrick this year show it still "can be done".

The main risk to Pro Twin is cheating. SVR is right, looking at a lot of bikes there is obvious "no compliances" all over them. Different brakes, subframes
not to mention the apparent horsepower differences. It was noticeable, no way can it explained away by "better drive / lighter rider" This year is over, I just hope next year there is tighter tech control to prevent these suspicions
false or not, ruining the freindships, respect and support you hope to see between the riders.

you forgot to mention the motor that previous to this either shat outta this bike or his previous one. the meet before nationals begun

[Robert Taylor]

I think that's ideally what the direction it should head in. The thing is, RG150s carsh VERY well and can be fixed at minimal cost. An SV650 has expensive parts on it. For example, mufflers, footpeg hangers, handle bars and the like.

Personally, I think Pro Twins SHOULD be a street stock 650 class, however it's just not do-able with the cost of replacement parts.

They were never ever intended as a race bike but as a commuter bike. Thats why crankcases crack on them after so many stress hours when you extract horsepower. In stock form they are a wobbly jelly unsuitable for sustained use on a racetrack. FACT.

[White trash]

They were never ever intended as a race bike but as a commuter bike. Thats why crankcases crack on them after so many stress hours when you extract horsepower. In stock form they are a wobbly jelly unsuitable for sustained use on a racetrack. FACT.
Oh I also agree with this sentiment. I've had the pleasure of riding a complete stocker, on factory tyres around Taupo. It sucked.

I think that what a tightly controlled race series needs, is VERY clear rules and enforcment of those rules.

As an example.

650 Sports Production (different name so as not to confuse anyone)
You can make NO engine/exhaust/intake modifications except for a muffler. After market muffler screws your fueling? Tough. Leave it stock if you don't like it.
Control suspension. Suspension must remain stock OR have a control shock fitted. WP/Ohlins/Penske I don't care, but it would have to be decided. You can alter the spring, but the internals must remain the same as the chosen model came out of the box. Emulators. Yes please. But one brand again. Preferably the cheap ones.
Tyres. Control tyres. Fuck it, the system works for WSBK? Mr Pirelli gives you a deal, and that's what we run. ONE pair of tyres per meeting. Wets? That's a safety issue, yes you can run a control wet.

We NEED a tightly controlled National Points class that youngsters can move to from Street Stock. 125s are fantastic, but a competitive one is still expensive and not something any bloke can climb on and prove himself.

[Robert Taylor]

Oh I also agree with this sentiment. I've had the pleasure of riding a complete stocker, on factory tyres around Taupo. It sucked.

I think that what a tightly controlled race series needs, is VERY clear rules and enforcment of those rules.

As an example.

650 Sports Production (different name so as not to confuse anyone)
You can make NO engine/exhaust/intake modifications except for a muffler. After market muffler screws your fueling? Tough. Leave it stock if you don't like it.
Control suspension. Suspension must remain stock OR have a control shock fitted. WP/Ohlins/Penske I don't care, but it would have to be decided. You can alter the spring, but the internals must remain the same as the chosen model came out of the box. Emulators. Yes please. But one brand again. Preferably the cheap ones.
Tyres. Control tyres. Fuck it, the system works for WSBK? Mr Pirelli gives you a deal, and that's what we run. ONE pair of tyres per meeting. Wets? That's a safety issue, yes you can run a control wet.

We NEED a tightly controlled National Points class that youngsters can move to from Street Stock. 125s are fantastic, but a competitive one is still expensive and not something any bloke can climb on and prove himself.

Theres a huge flaw in that already. Heavyweight riders need a heavy rate spring and high speed rebound damping needs recalibration to match that spring. Ditto for lightweight riders, if the damping cant be recalibrated to the spring required then its hardly a level playing field for riders who have the ''temerity'' to fall outside of the average 70 - 80kg range.
Road racing is a team sport that is also about setup, dont dumb it down too much.

[evol mas]

yea cheating is low and uncalled for. I hold my head high and proud in knowing i won on a bike that was completly legal

[lostinflyz]

yea cheating is low and uncalled for. I hold my head high and proud in knowing i won on a bike that was completly legal

the same words emminate from every p twin racer. not to question you but unfortunatly no one admits to skirting the rules.

the racing in pro twins is not nearly close enough to justify any cheating really. what the hell would u expect to gain without failing tech inspection. oris the tech inspection that shite??? Its no good having a stock-ish class if you can skirt the rules willy nillly

[puddytat]

Oh I also agree with this sentiment. I've had the pleasure of riding a complete stocker, on factory tyres around Taupo. It sucked.

I think that what a tightly controlled race series needs, is VERY clear rules and enforcment of those rules.

As an example.

650 Sports Production (different name so as not to confuse anyone)
You can make NO engine/exhaust/intake modifications except for a muffler. After market muffler screws your fueling? Tough. Leave it stock if you don't like it.
Control suspension. Suspension must remain stock OR have a control shock fitted. WP/Ohlins/Penske I don't care, but it would have to be decided. You can alter the spring, but the internals must remain the same as the chosen model came out of the box. Emulators. Yes please. But one brand again. Preferably the cheap ones.
Tyres. Control tyres. Fuck it, the system works for WSBK? Mr Pirelli gives you a deal, and that's what we run. ONE pair of tyres per meeting. Wets? That's a safety issue, yes you can run a control wet.

We NEED a tightly controlled National Points class that youngsters can move to from Street Stock. 125s are fantastic, but a competitive one is still expensive and not something any bloke can climb on and prove himself.

I reckon that'd be pretty nigh to spot on, and would also work well for
600 IL4's too

but like RT says, you'd have to acomodate the Fatties & Skinneys

[GSVR]

Personally I think some of whats being said here is not true.

1/ What does a set of aftermarket rearsets cost? How many OEM replacements would this buy. Also bear in mind its easy to get these repaired by welding.

2/ The std SV650 sucked for WT because he's used to riding alot better performance bikes. If he had come off an RG150 he would think the SV was the bees knees!

3/ All the talk about high tyrewear etc on a SV with std shocks is just not true. I've done several trackdays that involves much longer sints on the track than a raceday and my second hand castoffs have come off looking great with very even wear. I'm not the fastest guy on the track but I was capable of running near the front in F3 at club level the one year I did compete.

4/ Apart from the fact the tank sticks out the sides too far SVs crash better than 600s and 1000s do. Probably because they are going slower and have much more substantual frames. Crash bungs go a long way to minimising the damage.

5/ As for accomadating the fat and skinny folk this is PC crap. Why not help out fatty in streetstock by letting him have another 50cc! Laughable. What about all the poor skinny chaps that wanna be sumo wresters. Man my heart goes out to them. Fat guys usually end up riding Harleys so lets bring back Sportster racing. Seriously allowing springs and oil to be changed is as far as this should go.


Just another point of interest how many ProTwin racers run the huge OEM battery? If you read the rules no mention is made of being able to run a different sized battery so technically anyone who did is a cheat!


Disclaimer:
The views posted above are not necessarily the opinions of the person who posted it.

[White trash]

Theres a huge flaw in that already. Heavyweight riders need a heavy rate spring and high speed rebound damping needs recalibration to match that spring. Ditto for lightweight riders, if the damping cant be recalibrated to the spring required then its hardly a level playing field for riders who have the ''temerity'' to fall outside of the average 70 - 80kg range.
Road racing is a team sport that is also about setup, dont dumb it down too much.
Roger that big fella.

Seal the shocks. Problem solved.

[White trash]

yea cheating is low and uncalled for. I hold my head high and proud in knowing i won on a bike that was completly legal
Get your body paint out and blow an air horn son, you're the champion!!!!

[oyster]

Wayne, have you got me in trouble....
Yep, I prepped up Patrick's bike. I fixed what I could, made what I could and bought what I couldn't. Isn't that what we all do?
I've got a horrible classic race bike with BSA forks. A few weeks after having a bit of chat a race meeting re these problems and how I might fix them, an old guy in his 70's called in with a old hand drawings of fork internals he said would fix it. This what they did to make Gold Star racers work properly in the 60's. Yes 40 years ago. And when I looked at the details, dimensioned in fractional inches, there were the principles of the "modern" Gold Valve emulator. Big holes, check valving, "cracking" pressure and differential compression / rebound. No, when I made Patrick's parts I didn't take anyone's intellectual property, I applied the principles established 40 plus years ago.
If I had time I would've made the exhaust. Would I be in trouble with Yoshimura? Of course not.

Now, Burt Munro you naughty boy. In the book it said you copied the cylinder heads of the latest technology of the time, the AJS Big Port. 1926. Wicked.

Rob, if it worries you, I'm sorry. I'm just working my butt off as supporter (and father) to make the knowledge and equipment as widely available as possible, for the good of the sport. Same as you.

[FROSTY]

Theres a huge flaw in that already. Heavyweight riders need a heavy rate spring and high speed rebound damping needs recalibration to match that spring. Ditto for lightweight riders, if the damping cant be recalibrated to the spring required then its hardly a level playing field for riders who have the ''temerity'' to fall outside of the average 70 - 80kg range.
Road racing is a team sport that is also about setup, dont dumb it down too much.
WRONG --by running a control shock front and rear there is NO reason the shock setup can't be calibrated to suit the riders weight. You have said this many times yourself. Thats part of the bike tuning process. Lets be honest here if you are building 20 shocks -same type it wouldnt be hard for you to build to individual riders weight.

[GSVR]

Why a control shock? Whats next ... a control tyre, control fuel.

People should not be allowed to race in ProTwin if they don't have control tyre warmers. It is dangerous for someone to be barrelling into turn one on cold tyres. They don't have the same level of grip and might crash! Worse if they are on standard suspension too so lets not let people ride unless they have decent suspension ie Ohlins TTX36 or better.

[FROSTY]

sorry mate re shocks. Just rephrased that comment.
Shock wise My point is to limit the $$$$$ being spent.
No reason a penske,WP,ohlins ex gixxer thou etc shock cant be fitted but there has to be a means of establishing a price break. Maybee no remote resevoir. (Im not up to speed enough to be able to state the means just the intent)My point was that as an example RT when building say 20 XYZ shocks could put different damping and springs to suit different rider weights so the comment about disadvantaging heavy riders isnt true.

================================================== ====
Re Control Tyres --HECK YEA but heres the rub Running control tyres must be to ADVANTAGE the riders.
Id suggest that the next years PT contract be offered to all the tyre companys --Dunlop,metzler,pirelli,conti, etc
Whoever comes up with the best deal on tyres gets that years control tyre.
Of course the bikes have to display a sponser sticker for that brand.
Im in no way stuck on that idea but it would I feel reduce individual riders costs.
For the jokers gonna say --ohh what if chen shin etc put their hand up -clearly the riders wouldnt use rubbish tyres

Control fuel wise -um aint we already doing that? -Not trying to get a point in here just I thought we had to use commercially available pump gas.

The one thing Im keen on is reducing rhe money spent on engines.
Again the poms seem to have hit the right formula with a 75hp limit.
They arent haveing the issues the yanks are having with exploding engines. Spena a million bucks on ya engine but if it makes more than 75--yer out

[Robert Taylor]

Wayne, have you got me in trouble....
Yep, I prepped up Patrick's bike. I fixed what I could, made what I could and bought what I couldn't. Isn't that what we all do?
I've got a horrible classic race bike with BSA forks. A few weeks after having a bit of chat a race meeting re these problems and how I might fix them, an old guy in his 70's called in with a old hand drawings of fork internals he said would fix it. This what they did to make Gold Star racers work properly in the 60's. Yes 40 years ago. And when I looked at the details, dimensioned in fractional inches, there were the principles of the "modern" Gold Valve emulator. Big holes, check valving, "cracking" pressure and differential compression / rebound. No, when I made Patrick's parts I didn't take anyone's intellectual property, I applied the principles established 40 plus years ago.
If I had time I would've made the exhaust. Would I be in trouble with Yoshimura? Of course not.
Now, Burt Munro you naughty boy. In the book it said you copied the cylinder heads of the latest technology of the time, the AJS Big Port. 1926. Wicked.

Rob, if it worries you, I'm sorry. I'm just working my butt off as supporter (and father) to make the knowledge and equipment as widely available as possible, for the good of the sport. Same as you.

I hear you and yes there is never much that hasnt been done before, in fact if you look inside oem DR350 forks there is something a little similiar but they scored an own goal and it doesnt work as it should.
Indeed it should be asked how similiar are they because as I recall the class rules allow emulators only, so your items should have been tech inspected....
Given the news media fed / promoted recession ( these guys exacerbate everything negatively ) there will be a greater level of piracy happening on many goods and that is why big manufacturers have people investigating and taking action where possible.

[Robert Taylor]

Why a control shock? Whats next ... a control tyre, control fuel.

People should not be allowed to race in ProTwin if they don't have control tyre warmers. It is dangerous for someone to be barrelling into turn one on cold tyres. They don't have the same level of grip and might crash! Worse if they are on standard suspension too so lets not let people ride unless they have decent suspension ie Ohlins TTX36 or better.

Now thats just mischievous and flippant is it not?

[Robert Taylor]

sorry mate re shocks. Just rephrased that comment.
Shock wise My point is to limit the $$$$$ being spent.
No reason a penske,WP,ohlins ex gixxer thou etc shock cant be fitted but there has to be a means of establishing a price break. Maybee no remote resevoir. (Im not up to speed enough to be able to state the means just the intent)My point was that as an example RT when building say 20 XYZ shocks could put different damping and springs to suit different rider weights so the comment about disadvantaging heavy riders isnt true.

================================================== ====
Re Control Tyres --HECK YEA but heres the rub Running control tyres must be to ADVANTAGE the riders.
Id suggest that the next years PT contract be offered to all the tyre companys --Dunlop,metzler,pirelli,conti, etc
Whoever comes up with the best deal on tyres gets that years control tyre.
Of course the bikes have to display a sponser sticker for that brand.
Im in no way stuck on that idea but it would I feel reduce individual riders costs.
For the jokers gonna say --ohh what if chen shin etc put their hand up -clearly the riders wouldnt use rubbish tyres

Control fuel wise -um aint we already doing that? -Not trying to get a point in here just I thought we had to use commercially available pump gas.

The one thing Im keen on is reducing rhe money spent on engines.
Again the poms seem to have hit the right formula with a 75hp limit.
They arent haveing the issues the yanks are having with exploding engines. Spena a million bucks on ya engine but if it makes more than 75--yer out

Sorry Frosty you misinterpreted. Heavyweight / lightweight riders would be disadvantaged were they not allowed to run spring rates correct for them with complimentary valving changes.

[Robert Taylor]

Personally I think some of whats being said here is not true.

1/ What does a set of aftermarket rearsets cost? How many OEM replacements would this buy. Also bear in mind its easy to get these repaired by welding.

2/ The std SV650 sucked for WT because he's used to riding alot better performance bikes. If he had come off an RG150 he would think the SV was the bees knees!

3/ All the talk about high tyrewear etc on a SV with std shocks is just not true. I've done several trackdays that involves much longer sints on the track than a raceday and my second hand castoffs have come off looking great with very even wear. I'm not the fastest guy on the track but I was capable of running near the front in F3 at club level the one year I did compete.

4/ Apart from the fact the tank sticks out the sides too far SVs crash better than 600s and 1000s do. Probably because they are going slower and have much more substantual frames. Crash bungs go a long way to minimising the damage.

5/ As for accomadating the fat and skinny folk this is PC crap. Why not help out fatty in streetstock by letting him have another 50cc! Laughable. What about all the poor skinny chaps that wanna be sumo wresters. Man my heart goes out to them. Fat guys usually end up riding Harleys so lets bring back Sportster racing. Seriously allowing springs and oil to be changed is as far as this should go.


Just another point of interest how many ProTwin racers run the huge OEM battery? If you read the rules no mention is made of being able to run a different sized battery so technically anyone who did is a cheat!


Disclaimer:
The views posted above are not necessarily the opinions of the person who posted it.

Well, given your stated position in the world why didnt you front up at the Nationals with your stock shock, your ''second hand castoffs'' and no tyre warmers??
Im sure many people are itching to hear......................
If you actually knew something about suspension that would be fine. But as it stands you use so many words to say so little.

[Billy]

yea cheating is low and uncalled for. I hold my head high and proud in knowing i won on a bike that was completly legal

Yip and when the opposition pointed out things that may be illegal you went out of your way to fix them right down to the last hour before leaving for the South Island,While they carried on building bikes that would not have passed a tech inspection themselves.Futhermore comparing Karl and Sams Championships and laptimes is ridiculous too say the least,They werent even at the track in the same year let alone day and anybody who has actually raced a bike would understand atmospheric conditions and an ability to know when you have to win a race and when you dont to win the championship all contribute to how fast you need to go at a given time.To claim that suspension or tyres or whatever else part of the bike was entirely responsible is a joke to say the least.Sams 2009 season started while his ankle was healing from his 2008 mishap and gained momentum from there. He won because he was the most commited rider out there and he wanted it far more than anybody else end of story.Once again well done Sam and I hope you can secure yourself a good 600 ride for the 2010 season

[evol mas]

cheers for your support and help billy much appreciated m8!!!!!

WT haha body paint and air horns only come out on special occasions ... paeroa!!
i had fun and hopfully a few other people had a laugh aswell cos at the end of the day isnt that what racing bikes is suposd to be about..... having fun!!!!

[Robert Taylor]

Yip and when the opposition pointed out things that may be illegal you went out of your way to fix them right down to the last hour before leaving for the South Island,While they carried on building bikes that would not have passed a tech inspection themselves.Futhermore comparing Karl and Sams Championships and laptimes is ridiculous too say the least,They werent even at the track in the same year let alone day and anybody who has actually raced a bike would understand atmospheric conditions and an ability to know when you have to win a race and when you dont to win the championship all contribute to how fast you need to go at a given time.To claim that suspension or tyres or whatever else part of the bike was entirely responsible is a joke to say the least.Sams 2009 season started while his ankle was healing from his 2008 mishap and gained momentum from there. He won because he was the most commited rider out there and he wanted it far more than anybody else end of story.Once again well done Sam and I hope you can secure yourself a good 600 ride for the 2010 season


I second that

[svracer12]

you forgot to mention the motor that previous to this either shat outta this bike or his previous one. the meet before nationals begun

yes my motor did blow up but it was a factory fault with one of the conrods. it would have happined even if it was still on the road.

[GSVR]

Well, given your stated position in the world why didnt you front up at the Nationals with your stock shock, your ''second hand castoffs'' and no tyre warmers??
Im sure many people are itching to hear......................
If you actually knew something about suspension that would be fine. But as it stands you use so many words to say so little.

Thanks. Glad I don't know too much about suspension its seems like one hell of a frustrating subject.

[FROSTY]

Sorry Frosty you misinterpreted. Heavyweight / lightweight riders would be disadvantaged were they not allowed to run spring rates correct for them with complimentary valving changes.
Hmm sounds like we are on the same page here Rob just sayin it different. Ill try to rephrase so Im saying it "right'.
Given Its you Im talking to as an example
You say YES I can build a rear TTX1254/735 Ohlins shock for pro twins bikes for $1300. The rider then tells you his weight and you set the spring weight and valving AT BUILD to suit his weight.
Then if a decidedly heavier/lighter rider buys the bike they contact you and send shock for respring /revalve or perhaps just exchange.
Same with the front end and use of emmulators and different weight springs.
The point isnt to dumb it down because still they will need to set the shocks up to suit style and track but it does reduce cost.
Incidently suspension is NOT the main area of concern. its the "other stuff"

[FROSTY]

He won because he was the most commited rider out there and he wanted it far more than anybody else end of story.Once again well done Sam and I hope you can secure yourself a good 600 ride for the 2010 season
Hey Billly Sorry mate if it comes across Im having a go at the riders in pro twins Im DEFINITELY not.
My issue is that I see the potential for a friggin fantastic race class but its been stuffed up--MY OPINION.

[Robert Taylor]

Thanks. Glad I don't know too much about suspension its seems like one hell of a frustrating subject.

More than you realise...............

[Robert Taylor]

It's a valid point. For a `control class' there is now quite a bit of additional cost and development involved in producing a competitive bike.

Not entirely true, we develop good ''baseline specs'' from development that then get passed on with future sales. If I charged the true cost it would be unaffordable. Hardly a big bad capitalist then am I?

[oyster]

Robert, I don't want to "take you on" but please realise "emulator" is a generic word in the english language. See your dictionary. MNZ rules refer to these in exactly this way. No reference to Traxxion Dynamics, Gold Valve, Suzuki, XZY Manuf co or whoever else makes emulators. I built and fitted emulators to the definition of the Oxford dictionary and MNZ rules, to which they definitely comply. To cast doubt that these are prohibited is a bit rough.
To suggest counterfeiting is a bit rough too. That business is about the wholesale mass manufacturing of items while branding with original's name.
IE fake Addidas (note mispelling) shoes. The items in Patrick's bike are proudly (GP winning ) Oyster Emulators.
I appreciate what you contribute Robert, but it's not for everybody, as Frosty also points out, to have a top spec bike as a REQUIREMENT to get on the track and have fun, develop their riding and do it safely.

[Billy]

Hey Billly Sorry mate if it comes across Im having a go at the riders in pro twins Im DEFINITELY not.
My issue is that I see the potential for a friggin fantastic race class but its been stuffed up--MY OPINION.

No offence taken mate,I fully agree with you.The class should have been a production class ie:Slip on muffler if you want,Replica of original fibreglass only and sticky tyres.Everything else is added cost for no good reason,Its pretty much how racing was back in the 80s and 90s.Remember that?53 riders in National points races 250 proddy,Good close racing right through the feild and produced some of the best racers to come out of this country.Pro Twins under its current format will NEVER duplicate that.Having said all that I doubt very much either Karl or Sam would have been threatened.Bring back a Production based class where riders can have a competitive bike for $10,000.00 or less and the results will speak for themselves.Furthermore some of the people that get on this website and try and tell us different were there during those golden years and saw it

[Robert Taylor]

Robert, I don't want to "take you on" but please realise "emulator" is a generic word in the english language. See your dictionary. MNZ rules refer to these in exactly this way. No reference to Traxxion Dynamics, Gold Valve, Suzuki, XZY Manuf co or whoever else makes emulators. I built and fitted emulators to the definition of the Oxford dictionary and MNZ rules, to which they definitely comply. To cast doubt that these are prohibited is a bit rough.
To suggest counterfeiting is a bit rough too. That business is about the wholesale mass manufacturing of items while branding with original's name.
IE fake Addidas (note mispelling) shoes. The items in Patrick's bike are proudly (GP winning ) Oyster Emulators.
I appreciate what you contribute Robert, but it's not for everybody, as Frosty also points out, to have a top spec bike as a REQUIREMENT to get on the track and have fun, develop their riding and do it safely.

No intention of casting doubt as such ( that came out a little wrong and if it sounds rough I duly apologise ) but if someone built a better emulator then go for it. Ive often thought of it but time is too prohibitive.
There are options for everybody in terms of what they wish to budget, what I object to ( in general ) is the culture of envy that still reigns in this country. As opposed to the culture of hard work ad ambition.

[Robert Taylor]

No offence taken mate,I fully agree with you.The class should have been a production class ie:Slip on muffler if you want,Replica of original fibreglass only and sticky tyres.Everything else is added cost for no good reason,Its pretty much how racing was back in the 80s and 90s.Remember that?53 riders in National points races 250 proddy,Good close racing right through the feild and produced some of the best racers to come out of this country.Pro Twins under its current format will NEVER duplicate that.Having said all that I doubt very much either Karl or Sam would have been threatened.Bring back a Production based class where riders can have a competitive bike for $10,000.00 or less and the results will speak for themselves.Furthermore some of the people that get on this website and try and tell us different were there during those golden years and saw it

Yes 250 proddy was great but we dont appear to have any low cost 250s any more that are suitable for racing. Racing with stock damper rod ''wallow sticks'' Youve got to be nuts. Times have moved on and we cannot live in the past.

[Billy]

Yes 250 proddy was great but we dont appear to have any low cost 250s any more that are suitable for racing. Racing with stock damper rod ''wallow sticks'' Youve got to be nuts. Times have moved on and we cannot live in the past.

And yet in another thread you tell us how Karl only changed the springs and made NO damper mods,Its also worth noting at this stage Steve Wood managed to run in the top 3 at the Manfeild round of the nationals last year in F3 on an SV with a standard rear shock achieving laptimes in the 1.13s bracket,The very same meeting Karl Morgan achieved 1.14s on his pro twin machine with the above mentioned front end.The point being if its the same for everybody then the best rider will win and everybody has the same opportunity for a lot less cost.In theory more riders will be eager to give it a go if theyve got as good a bike as the rest without spending $20,000.00 plus

[Robert Taylor]

And yet in another thread you tell us how Karl only changed the springs and made NO damper mods,Its also worth noting at this stage Steve Wood managed to run in the top 3 at the Manfeild round of the nationals last year in F3 on an SV with a standard rear shock achieving laptimes in the 1.13s bracket,The very same meeting Karl Morgan achieved 1.14s on his pro twin machine with the above mentioned front end.The point being if its the same for everybody then the best rider will win and everybody has the same opportunity for a lot less cost.In theory more riders will be eager to give it a go if theyve got as good a bike as the rest without spending $20,000.00 plus

You can believe what makes you comfortable but if you had 2 bikes identical in every way and the same rider, one bike has emulators and the other doesnt. Its a no brainer which one will lap faster and feel more secure. Point of fact nearly every rider is a part timer in NZ and therefore inconsistencies arise compared to proffessional riders who can lap at the same speed every lap. ( And somewhat faster )Thats why you happily cited the above without taking stock of what I have just said.
Suspension is one of the most cost effective mods, fact.

[White trash]

Suspension is one of the most cost effective mods, fact.

And tyres. Let's not forget them little puppies

[FROSTY]

Robert- Ill apologise in advance here if this apears to be a personal attack -IT ISNT
Here exactly is where the whole pro twins debacle began.
People with a commercial interest. or a bike built to F3 spec --(ie thier bike already had PC and hot pipe and emmulators etc) having way too much influence on how the class rules were set up.

It left me with a real sense of deja vu to hear some of the comments made at the first meeting (to discuss class rules) at Ruapuna back in jan 07 The Deja Vu was the beginning of the end for 250 proddie when the nsr250 honda's were allowed gearing changes, Thin end of the wedge it was -next came slicks allowed because a tyre brand was "virtually' a slick anyway and so on it went.
Im only too well aware that yes two stroke 250's did stop coming in new but the class was stuffed up before that happened.
Again I just dont understand why NZ hasn't learned from overseas experiences.

2 years ago before I smacked myself around at Taupo I was passionately pushing this exact same barrow.

pro twins rules.
1) NO engine modification allowed,
2)no power commanders or other injection tuning devices
2) Exhaust system to be factory stock back to but not including muffler.
3) bodywork to be factory available for that make/model or Direct replicas thereof both front and rear.-specifically you CAN use faired SV fairings if your SV was purchased as a naked ditto the ER and Hyusung. also tail fairings could be a one piece allowing with the rear seat as a cast part of it.
4)gearing to remain factory 15/45 not the naked optional 15/44
5) bike not to exceed 75hp
6) brakes to be factory master cylinder/lines and calipers for that model. Pad choice is open.
7) Front suspension to remain in factory FORM internally and externally so allowing spring /oil damping rod changes/mods and emmulators--specifically excluding use of cartredge type aftermarket components.
8) Rear suspension -Here the jurys out. --ILL explain why.
My initial reaction is -The rear should remain factory stock
Then I was reminded that theres some really neat stuff can be done inside even the factory ER or SV shock to improve its performance dramatically.Invisible to the outside world but dramatic in effect.
So my thinking now is to allow a specific range of aftermarket alternatives which are down the bottom end of the price scale.
I thought about a $$ limit but that might mean some smartalec could buy a second hand really trick shock from a yank or pom mini twins racer and we're back to square 1--ie --OHH well if he's allowed it then why can't I buy a new one etc etc.
9) footpegs,hanger brackets,handlebars can be replaced with lower cost alternatives but must closely resemble factory equipment
10) Engine crankcase covers may be replaced with alternatives with crash protection,also crash bungs are permitted.
11) HOPEFULLY -control tyres -as Ive outlined earlier the idea being that every year the tender gets offered to the major brands to be pro twins tyre supplier --they get the sales but in exchange the price is heavilly discounted.
12) front and rear subframes may be replaced provided there is no weight advantage.

[Billy]

You can believe what makes you comfortable but if you had 2 bikes identical in every way and the same rider, one bike has emulators and the other doesnt. Its a no brainer which one will lap faster and feel more secure. Point of fact nearly every rider is a part timer in NZ and therefore inconsistencies arise compared to proffessional riders who can lap at the same speed every lap. ( And somewhat faster )Thats why you happily cited the above without taking stock of what I have just said.
Suspension is one of the most cost effective mods, fact.

Nobody has said a bike with emulators would not handle any better or make the tyres last longer.What is being stated is We need a low cost production based class to run at National level and Pro Twins should have been it.The fact is I know of 4 riders who were keen to do Pro Twins until they saw the rules and another three who have built bikes to suit the rules and had no budget left to compete with at club level let alone National.Fact,If racing stays as expensive as it presently there will be less and less people interested in attempting it at National level.What is being applied now is NOT working and if we continue to do what we are doing,We will always have what weve got.

[White trash]

Some very good debate going on here indeed.

The fact is, however, that the rules as they currently stand will never be tightened further to bring them back to closer to stock bikes. It would mean that the current field of bikes are effectively illeagal and eligible for only F3, where they're far from competitive.

I'm not convinced that the rules are wrong either. I mean a mate bought Karls championship winning bike from 08 for 11K I think. That's fucken cheap really for a bike that can run at the front all day. Once purchased, the running costs are comparitively cheap. I mean, tyres last for ever, servicing is sweet FA, and you'll have a hell of alot of fun.

[FROSTY]

The fact is, however, that the rules as they currently stand will never be tightened further to bring them back to closer to stock bikes. It would mean that the current field of bikes are effectively illeagal and eligible for only F3, where they're far from competitive.
I dont agree dude. In most cases taking a current PT bike and making it fit the rules I outlined wouldnt be a major cost at all or they could go down the F3 route
Actually that raises the other bugbear.Two classes on track same time and the top PT bikes are up there lapping at the top ten lap times for F3 and looking like F3 bikes to the outside world.
Surely the look and feel of PT needs to be different to F3

[Billy]

Some very good debate going on here indeed.

The fact is, however, that the rules as they currently stand will never be tightened further to bring them back to closer to stock bikes. It would mean that the current field of bikes are effectively illeagal and eligible for only F3, where they're far from competitive.

I'm not convinced that the rules are wrong either. I mean a mate bought Karls championship winning bike from 08 for 11K I think. That's fucken cheap really for a bike that can run at the front all day. Once purchased, the running costs are comparitively cheap. I mean, tyres last for ever, servicing is sweet FA, and you'll have a hell of alot of fun.

Yip,The top paragraph is 100% correct,However where the rules as they are falter is in the fact ,There will always be someone like Sam who will want to win so much ,He will go that extra mile and spend every cent he earns to maximise his chances of winning and if it costs him $25,000.00 then so be it and that is offputting to a huge amount of competitors and so they stick with their 20yr old 400 and stay club racing instead of moving up.Having said all that it doesnt necessarily mean Im right,I just see that whats happening now is not working and Ive seen what does

[FROSTY]

wonder what would happen if someone started a "class within a class"
Summat like -PT proddy.
Two ways it could go--either further water down the tallent pool or get PT back on track
As they say --proof of the puddings in the eating. Unless Im very much mistaken not too many eating the PT pudding as it stands

[Robert Taylor]

Robert- Ill apologise in advance here if this apears to be a personal attack -IT ISNT
Here exactly is where the whole pro twins debacle began.
People with a commercial interest. or a bike built to F3 spec --(ie thier bike already had PC and hot pipe and emmulators etc) having way too much influence on how the class rules were set up.

It left me with a real sense of deja vu to hear some of the comments made at the first meeting (to discuss class rules) at Ruapuna back in jan 07 The Deja Vu was the beginning of the end for 250 proddie when the nsr250 honda's were allowed gearing changes, Thin end of the wedge it was -next came slicks allowed because a tyre brand was "virtually' a slick anyway and so on it went.
Im only too well aware that yes two stroke 250's did stop coming in new but the class was stuffed up before that happened.
Again I just dont understand why NZ hasn't learned from overseas experiences.

2 years ago before I smacked myself around at Taupo I was passionately pushing this exact same barrow.

pro twins rules.
1) NO engine modification allowed,
2)no power commanders or other injection tuning devices
2) Exhaust system to be factory stock back to but not including muffler.
3) bodywork to be factory available for that make/model or fibreglass replicas thereof -specifically you CAN use faired SV fairings if your SV was purchased as a naked ditto the ER and Hyusung.
4)gearing to remain factory 15/45 not the naked optional 15/44
5) bike not to exceed 75hp
6) brakes to be factory master cylinder/lines and calipers for that model. Pad choice is open.
7) Front suspension to remain in factory FORM internally and externally so allowing spring /oil damping rod changes/mods and emmulators--specifically excluding use of cartredge type aftermarket components.
8) Rear suspension -Here the jurys out. --ILL explain why.
My initial reaction is -The rear should remain factory stock
Then I was reminded that theres some really neat stuff can be done inside even the factory ER or SV shock to improve its performance dramatically.Invisible to the outside world but dramatic in effect.
So my thinking now is to allow a specific range of aftermarket alternatives which are down the bottom end of the price scale.
I thought about a $$ limit but that might mean some smartalec could buy a second hand really trick shock from a yank or pom mini twins racer and we're back to square 1--ie --OHH well if he's allowed it then why can't I buy a new one etc etc.
9) footpegs,hanger brackets,handlebars can be replaced with lower cost alternatives but must closely resemble factory equipment
10) Engine crankcase covers may be replaced with alternatives with crash protection,also crash bungs are permitted.
11) HOPEFULLY -control tyres -as Ive outlined earlier the idea being that every year the tender gets offered to the major brands to be pro twins tyre supplier --they get the sales but in exchange the price is heavilly discounted.
12) front and rear subframes may be replaced provided there is no weight advantage.

No offence taken whatsoever, you have some very valid points. A word about shock prices, like everything imported ( and that includes oem, check out oem shock prices, why would you? ) pricing has gone up significantly because our exchange rate has gone west.
$1300 ( as per your example figure ) would about get you a new single tube emulsion shock that very much turns into a milkshake after several laps on the bumpiest courses. There are cheap shocks on the market ( I will sensibly resist naming them ) but at the risk of being vilified they do little better than fill the gap between centres.
I have been following with interest the new Race Tech shocks, undoubtedly they work pretty well as Paul Thede is a clever guy. But they are low volume compared to the likes of what other quality manufacturers such as Ohlins and WP can spit out. Their fully adjustable race shock ( they do one for SV650 ) would on current exchange rates cost a purchaser about $3400 plus freight, clearance charges and gst. So at todays exchange rates they are very much a non starter. Its also a bit of a wake up call for me because over the years I have custom built many shocks and havent charged the true time.
What is also often overlooked ( and Frosty you in effect eluded to it ) is that there is a very strong second hand market for quality shocks, as Ohlins make up the numbers more so they filter through second hand. The number of competitors who have been able to purchase good secondhand shocks is a significant number.

[FROSTY]

Actually suspension is the one area Im not so passionate to pursue.
Im confident there will be a means available to cap the spending there.
Im more concerned about all the other stuff deemed "essential" for PT bikes.
Im sorry again for sounding like an old scratched record but why not dig out the 250 proddy rules and run PT by those rules--the old origonal rules not the watered down version.

[svr]

Unfortunately, I think ProTwins has missed the boat.
Forget the technical arguments, and here the comparison with 250 proddy (of the golden years) is entirely valid - the class should APPEAR to prospective riders in quite a specific way, i.e. that you can buy a bike that requires minimal prep and cost but is as good as anybody elses.
When I started roadracing in 1990 250 production was that class. The bikes weren't perfect to ride, and people cheated , but it attracted, produced (and retained) lots of good racers. Racers didn't require a `team' around them, they just wanted to race and have a crack at the established guns.
In terms of that formula, 650 production would be acceptable, and closer to 250 production than pro-twins. I agree however that you can't turn back the clock, and the best currently available producton technology should be taken advantage of, so 600 production would be the logical class.
What we need right now is full grids, right?

[oyster]

Robert, thanks for your understanding of my situation. Much appreciated. You know what I'm working on: "Safe Fun Fair" and bums on seats. For now and the future.

Read how Wayne describes my son's bike. Lost cost and effective. It's not unique, there are quite a few PT in the south built just the same way.
Young Will montgomery, 16 and still at school. Spends $1800 at Turners auctions for an ER6. With a bit of help straightens it, buys a rear shock, gets a muffler made by a neighbor and off he goes with his savings to do the south island national rounds. Learns heaps, and a final reward, a '42 around Ruapuna on a low powered (about 8hp down) bike. Is that not success?
What is everyone moaning about? While all are saying it can't be done, isn't it actually BEING DONE by Will and co?

The rules are pretty good. With my son's bike, I sure am glad they allow suspension upgrades. It's saving us HEAPS of money,(it keeps those fabulous Continentals LIKE NEW) plus the bike is safer, AND it allows him to learn about setup, an absolutely essential stepping stone before he goes (if he goes) to 600SP.

The only tricky bit with the rules is part about homologated parts. This means if you have an "N" model you're stuck with all the basic parts for THAT MODEL only. So you can't fit later brakes, earlier wheels (for your wets) etc etc. I think this needs a look at. But CAREFULLY otherwise it'll become a chequebook race everytime a new model comes out with improved this and that etc.