The Britten in F3?

[GSVR]

I'm wondering if John Britten had built his bikes with a displacement of 650cc would they be allowed to race in F3 under the current rulebook?


Also at what point does an engine become the OEM equipment of the bike builder. eg. If someone was to manufacture some new crankcases and use SV650 barrells, gearbox etc whose engine would it be? Fisher in the states make a 650cc bike based on a Hyosung engine if that was to run in F3 would it need to run Hyosungs airbox or Fishers?


Would be nice if people replying quoted the relevant F3 rules to support their views on this. No use spending large amounts of money and time on a bike only to find out its illegal due to some minor technical issue.

[GSVR]

Dr Robert? Anyone?

[White trash]

Don't have a rule book handy. Can't REALLY comment.

Although I was under the impression (and I may be well mistaken) that the engines used in F3 must be originally road bike motors. Hence there's not a shitload of 250 GP bikes out there cleaning up.

[Billy]

Don't have a rule book handy. Can't REALLY comment.

Although I was under the impression (and I may be well mistaken) that the engines used in F3 must be originally road bike motors. Hence there's not a shitload of 250 GP bikes out there cleaning up.

Incorrect there Jimmy,Nowhere does it say roadbased engine,However the rules strictly govern what modifications can be applied too a 250 multi cylinder 2 stroke.Something that definitely needs changing as its 10 years out of date

[White trash]

Shit, where's my rule book!

So you mean as long as you don't modify it, you COULD race a stock Honda RS250 in F3?

[lostinflyz]

Shit, where's my rule book!

So you mean as long as you don't modify it, you COULD race a stock Honda RS250 in F3?

nope rules strikly prohibit non production based 250 two stroke anythings. soo sad.

[White trash]

nope rules strikly prohibit non production based 250 two stroke anythings. soo sad.
Fair enough. It is, afterall, a Formula class and not a GP class.

[lostinflyz]

has a flick through the mnz regs. the f3 rules read

"The Formula 3 Championship class will exist primarily for Production Based machines."

read that how you will. but there is nothing more specfic than that.

so a britten 650 would be included. there is nothing in there to stop someone trying but they would have to at least completly build the motor from scratch and most likely release it as a production bike.

If the fisher crew make a bike based on a hyo 650 itll need the stock airbox and element on it to be legal. No matter how much you try to make it not a hyo motor it still would be unless it had only the bearings outta the motor (for instance)

[GSVR]

has a flick through the mnz regs. the f3 rules read

"The Formula 3 Championship class will exist primarily for Production Based machines."

read that how you will. but there is nothing more specfic than that.



Don't wish to get a pedantic but you have taken half a sentence from the introduction to the rules.

But never the less it does state that this is what the class 'primarily' exisits for which implies that theres some secondary reason for its existence otherwise the word 'solely' would have been used.

I have never understood the rules and can only base my opinion on whats legal on what has been allowed to race in the past and present.

[Billy]

Don't wish to get a pedantic but you have taken half a sentence from the introduction to the rules.

But never the less it does state that this is what the class 'primarily' exisits for which implies that theres some secondary reason for its existence otherwise the word 'solely' would have been used.

I have never understood the rules and can only base my opinion on whats legal on what has been allowed to race in the past and present.

Excellent point made,The formula 3 rules are so fragmented and have new rules added in without the deleting of old rules they are too hard to follow leading to such scenarios as was experienced in this years championship

[lostinflyz]

yep thats the first sentence of the intro. its the only general reference to production based anything.

i think its vauge so that basically motors can come from a wide variety of sources and frames can be from all sorts of places.

but as you say its all rather useless. basically if you build something prototype and it cleans up its likely to get banned in the name of spirit of racing.

[cowpoos]

Fair enough. It is, afterall, a Formula class and not a GP class.
you could stick a cr500 water cooled engine in the chassis and race it!!

[cowpoos]

I'm wondering if John Britten had built his bikes with a displacement of 650cc would they be allowed to race in F3 under the current rulebook?


Also at what point does an engine become the OEM equipment of the bike builder. eg. If someone was to manufacture some new crankcases and use SV650 barrells, gearbox etc whose engine would it be? Fisher in the states make a 650cc bike based on a Hyosung engine if that was to run in F3 would it need to run Hyosungs airbox or Fishers?


Would be nice if people replying quoted the relevant F3 rules to support their views on this. No use spending large amounts of money and time on a bike only to find out its illegal due to some minor technical issue.
I think the rules are pretty open...but there are some definate point regarding ex gp type bikes and two strokes...but there is a heck of alot of freedom for inovative design...which doesn't need to be costly if your a handy engineer and pretty good at physics/maths...

[Mystic13]

Excellent point made,The formula 3 rules are so fragmented and have new rules added in without the deleting of old rules they are too hard to follow leading to such scenarios as was experienced in this years championship

And that would be?

There was an appeal about something that meant they couldn't finalise the results. What was that about?

I was wondering whether the Ozzy450 would be allowed to stay because you know there will be more and would MNZ be happy about this. Is it a production 450. Nope. But it's just such a neat idea.

Can someone fill in the blanks seeing as I missed the news.

[GSVR]

I'm wondering if John Britten had built his bikes with a displacement of 650cc would they be allowed to race in F3 under the current rulebook?

I'll add two more questions for people that would like this one simiplified.


Can you build your own engine under the current rulebook in F3?

Can you build your own frame under the current rulebook in F3?

[Billy]

And that would be?

There was an appeal about something that meant they couldn't finalise the results. What was that about?

I was wondering whether the Ozzy450 would be allowed to stay because you know there will be more and would MNZ be happy about this. Is it a production 450. Nope. But it's just such a neat idea.

Can someone fill in the blanks seeing as I missed the news.

It had nothing too do with ozzys bike,It was about the SVs.Dont want to comment further until the appeal has been heard

[Billy]

I'm wondering if John Britten had built his bikes with a displacement of 650cc would they be allowed to race in F3 under the current rulebook?

I'll add two more questions for people that would like this one simiplified.


Can you build your own engine under the current rulebook in F3?

Can you build your own frame under the current rulebook in F3?

Yes you can in both cases but only if your not using a multicylinder 2 stroke engine.Thats the way it should be as its the only class left in NZ where you can do this sort of stuff,The only thing that really neds changing is the relaxing of restrictions for multi cylinder 2 strokes and possibly now that the front runners are going faster the inception of 250 GP bikes

[vtec]

What if someone makes a revolutionary new multi cylinder 4stroke prototype engine. Of say 400cc's. I've read the rules, and as has been commented, there's heaps of gaps in the rules. The only way to find out what you are allowed is to try it and see if they amend the rules to ban it. I think twins are allowed up to 750cc's. I don't think the rules say anything about them having to be production engines.

[Kickaha]

The only thing that really neds changing is the relaxing of restrictions for multi cylinder 2 strokes and possibly now that the front runners are going faster the inception of 250 GP bikes

Any good rider on a good 250GP bike would smoke any F3 bike

[FROSTY]

The F3 rules were made up about 20 years ago and as billy said have been ammended so many times you need to really search to find them all.
My take on it is --if you have a single or a multi cylinder 4 stroke you can only displace 450cc other wise its all but open slather.
But if you are on a twin it can displace 650cc if a multi valve,750 if a twin valve.
You must retain factory-unmodified. fuelling/airbox/air filter.
So if you imported the Hyo as a Fisher then you need to retain the factory fisher stuff.
Precedent on the 650 twin front is in my view clearly set by the cagiva raptor 650. Like the Fisher they use a doner engine--SV650 but they are tweaked to get a couple more HP

[Billy]

Any good rider on a good 250GP bike would smoke any F3 bike

Yip,I agree with you 100%,But with the inception of the Ozzy 450 and development with the SVs they are getting closer and the Ozzy is still in the early stages of development.Theres also a rule written that if a bike becomes too dominant it will be removed from the class.Which also answers Vtecs question

[FROSTY]

Yip,I agree with you 100%,But with the inception of the Ozzy 450 and development with the SVs they are getting closer and the Ozzy is still in the early stages of development.Theres also a rule written that if a bike becomes too dominant it will be removed from the class.Which also answers Vtecs question
A specific bike or the desighn?--Im thinkin there might be a few ozzi specials soon

[svr]

Basically, `formula three' is actually three sets of rules:
First, there are the original `proper' formula 3 rules ie. displacement, numbers of cylinders and valves, etc. Anything goes within the formula - build away.
Second, 250 production-based motorcycles have been added, with their own (overly restrictive) rules.
Third, 650 production-based motorcycles have been added, with their own rules.
The second and third sets of rules were written with specific production motorcycles in mind.
Simple aye?

[WarrenW]

The protest was about the airbox snorkel from what I inderstand, the rules were written in the days where there were only carburated SV's and now there are fuel injected ones. The result was a mismatch of what was a production motorcycle when the rules were written and what is currently available off the shop floor. All ok, points stood. Case closed.

[codgyoleracer]

My interpretation would be that a "Britten 650" could run if built, - but may find itself out in the cold the following year if to many competitors moan about it. (assuming that it dominated, - wheras if it didnt , - everything would be just fine......... :-) )

[GSVR]

Ok then... What if Buckley Systems had made the BSL a 250cc.
Would this be allowed to race in F3 under the current rules if not why not.

For this lets also assume it was never raced in 250GP.

Hypothetical quesions but only way to find out how others see these rules.

[lostinflyz]

the rules specifically outlaw ANY non production 250 2 stroke bits (well engine and frame ect.)

[GSVR]

the rules specifically outlaw ANY non production 250 2 stroke bits (well engine and frame ect.)

Yeah but the way I read those rules they only apply to:

"Specifications for up to 250cc production based twostrokes"

And the BSL is not a production based 250cc twostroke. And in this case woudn't be a 250GP bike either.

It would be a 250cc twostroke hybrid.

[lostinflyz]

Yeah but the way I read those rules they only apply to:

"Specifications for up to 250cc production based twostrokes"

And the BSL is not a production based 250cc twostroke. And in this case woudn't be a 250GP bike either.

It would be a 250cc twostroke hybrid.

theres some mad rule book flicking going on today

rule 5:

All two stroke multi-cylinder machines must comply with these rules. The machine must be based
on a volume production motorcycle that is road legal in New Zealand.

but the next sentence:

No homologation is
necessary however the Road Race Commission or Technical Steward shall have the power to rule
whether or not a machine is eligible

all the subsequent rules also state that the parts must be from the road going motorcycle.



So the rules don't specify only non gp parts and bikes but must be proddy. overall i think if you got your self a non-proddy 250 2 smoker you'd find an aweful lot of non helpful people about.

[GSVR]

Well if you dissregard the introduction paragraph ... whats the point in it being there?


What about these for F3 rules:

Singles any displacement and modifications
Up to 650 watercooled twins any modifications
Up to 500cc Multis any modifications
Up to 900cc Aircooled twins 2 valve any modifications
Up to 750 Aircooled twins any modifications
250GP bikes (possibly have a pre 2000 rule) any modifications

No other rules except general machinery saftey rules and pump gas only.

I'm sure this would leave no gray areas and the fewer rules there are the harder it is to cheat intentionally or otherwise!!!!

[t3mp0r4ry nzr]

Well if you dissregard the introduction paragraph ... whats the point in it being there?


What about these for F3 rules:

Singles any displacement and modifications
Up to 650 watercooled twins any modifications
Up to 500cc Multis any modifications
Up to 900cc Aircooled twins 2 valve any modifications
Up to 750 Aircooled twins any modifications
250GP bikes (possibly have a pre 2000 rule) any modifications

No other rules except general machinery saftey rules and pump gas only.

I'm sure this would leave no gray areas and the fewer rules there are the harder it is to cheat intentionally or otherwise!!!!

an interesting hyperthetical scenario. Out of interest, what is the model you had in mind to fit into the 900cc air-cooled twin class?

[GSVR]

an interesting hyperthetical scenario. Out of interest, what is the model you had in mind to fit into the 900cc air-cooled twin class?

There are a few Ducati 900ss s about and they could run in the class but would not be that competitve on the tighter tracks.

[t3mp0r4ry nzr]

yes, the classes you suggest could make for very interesting racing, as a well riden bike from any of the suggested classes could be in contention:sunny:

[lostinflyz]

Well if you dissregard the introduction paragraph ... whats the point in it being there?


What about these for F3 rules:

Singles any displacement and modifications
Up to 650 watercooled twins any modifications
Up to 500cc Multis any modifications
Up to 900cc Aircooled twins 2 valve any modifications
Up to 750 Aircooled twins any modifications
250GP bikes (possibly have a pre 2000 rule) any modifications

No other rules except general machinery saftey rules and pump gas only.

I'm sure this would leave no gray areas and the fewer rules there are the harder it is to cheat intentionally or otherwise!!!!

like it. id change a few

450 multi's as now. - Logic - stop overbored new 600's or sleeved and cranked 4's that would dominate too heavy

aircooled twins free reign

250GP bikes are out. At least for a while. But for 250 only motor need be proddy based say crank case and barrels from a recognized proddy motor. frame forks, carbs anything else free reign.

200cc and below 2 smokes free reign.


Do that and id be keen as pig shit to have a play.

FYI: the intro paragraph kinda seems to explain the logic (or attempted at it) of the rules rather than define eveything too the tooth.

[GSVR]

Giving Aircooled Twins a free reign would make Malcom Bell with his NCR MILLONA 1000 very happy.

The intro paragraph you talk of is Rule5 correct? Very thing else in 5 is a subrule of this main rule so it must only apply to Twostroke 250 Proddy bikes.

[FROSTY]

what about singles?

[svr]

The original F3 rules were perfect - people (& MNZ) have seen whats winning and reacted by changing the rules to suit. Eg; Er, SVs are winning - lets give 400s more capacity! But now that we have a decent (= modern) 450 out there winning, we need to allow 250gp and 900 twins in etc..??

And wait till destroked 600s get out there.

It's not really the rules per se, its what is done within them that has defined the class.

[lostinflyz]

singles are free reign currently i think. 4 stroke that is.

under my reign all single 2 strokes are in as well.

id be nice to see a variety of bikes out there some with speed, others in corners or brakes.

im imagining a field of overbored 125gp type things competing against a super hot SV like glens, 250 2 smoker proddy engines in gp frames, a buell xb12, duc 900SS in a 999 frame and a couple of 450's. the options are limitless. 100 hp yank tanks up against lightweight gp -esk machines. that would be a class worth watching. gets me all hot and bothered to be honest.

[GSVR]

The original F3 rules were perfect - people (& MNZ) have seen whats winning and reacted by changing the rules to suit. Eg; Er, SVs are winning - lets give 400s more capacity! But now that we have a decent (= modern) 450 out there winning, we need to allow 250gp and 900 twins in etc..??

And wait till destroked 600s get out there.

It's not really the rules per se, its what is done within them that has defined the class.

Everyone seems to agree the current rules are hard to interpret. All my suggestion here is to make them as simple as possible and include as many bikes as possible with similar performance. I can't see anyone being that competitive on an 900ss except for at Puke maybe. Same with an older 250GP. But at least the guys that own these bikes will have a class they can race in and be near the pace.

Next year there may be some big surprises as the 450 Ozzy bikes and others appear. Unless the rules change before then of course.

[gav]

Well if you dissregard the introduction paragraph ... whats the point in it being there?


What about these for F3 rules:

Singles any displacement and modifications
Up to 650 watercooled twins any modifications
Up to 500cc Multis any modifications
Up to 900cc Aircooled twins 2 valve any modifications
Up to 750 Aircooled twins any modifications
250GP bikes (possibly have a pre 2000 rule) any modifications

No other rules except general machinery saftey rules and pump gas only.

I'm sure this would leave no gray areas and the fewer rules there are the harder it is to cheat intentionally or otherwise!!!!

Rather than revamp the old F3 rules, the above looks similiar to the old F2 rules, maybe reintroduce F2 as a class?

[GSVR]

Rather than revamp the old F3 rules, the above looks similiar to the old F2 rules, maybe reintroduce F2 as a class?

What do you mean "reintroduce F2" vic club runs F1 and F2 every year!

[oyster]

MNZ have had no F1 and F2 rules for over 10 years in the rulebook.
Some will remember the fuss getting the Britten to race as there was no class for it except at BEARS meetings which had supp regs. allowing it.
I think that's how it eventually got on the track to race in Production Superbike
The Vic Club run Superbike and Supersport which they explain is "typically F1/F2 rules" So where would you find these rules today?

[svr]

Rather than revamp the old F3 rules, the above looks similiar to the old F2 rules, maybe reintroduce F2 as a class?

Excellent point! A 600cc air-cooled twin (and a 750) has won the F2 national championship. So the new F3 rules should allow 900cc?
F3 is (was?) an international formula - why deviate so much when the principles of internal combustion haven't?