$50 emergency locator beacon?

[Radar]

Would you buy an emergency locator beacon on bike trips if it was only $50? Would your group or club get one at the actual cost, $525? What are the pro's and con's?

Reading this thread (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=93009) made me wonder if beacons would be useful. You can see my post, #79, for a reference to Trig Instruments, one distributor in NZ.
The Personal Locator Beacon - PLB - can be seen here on this page (http://www.triginstruments.co.nz/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=873).

AFAIK, when a beacon is activated on land, an ambulance does not immediately get dispatched, but what is important is that the GPS location is registered with emergency services.

What are your thoughts?

[naphazoline]

I reckon ,yeah if they were cheaper.Could come in handy if riding solo in the bush,or some of the remote places around then country.

[YellowDog]

A bit like a life belt on a boat. One of those handy accessories that you are unlikely to ever need however if you are in trouble and out in a remote location, it may well save your life.

Just a thought: If a manufacturer were to tie this in to an anti-theft/recovery tracking device, it would serve two purposes and help to justify a $500+.

[nico]

it probly just another something to forget to take with you. Id be bold saying 90% of bikes on road (speeking road bikes only) would never be to far from something or someone, in saying that thses in the bush are awsome peice of mind in remote back country by your self+dogs great. but for road use i think it's just another thing we dont need some one said it could be built into a anti theft/ alarm GOOD IDEA :niceone: that id consideder

[Jantar]

It is something I do intend to buy once I get back into adventure riding properly.

I had a scare many years ago when riding solo between Lake Mahineragi (near Dunedin) and Alexandra over the Lamermoor and Knobby ranges. I blew the engine on my bike on the return trip only 100 m from where I had parked the ute, and that was in the middle of no-where. It made me think about what would have happened if I had crashed or even just broken down 30 - 80 kms earlier. No-one would have had any idea where I was. An ELB would be a must in those circumstances, but they weren't available back in 1974.

[sunhuntin]

id be likely to buy at either price. the only difference being that at $50, i could buy it NOW, whereas anything else would have to be saved up for. either way, whats $500 compared to your life? its a small price to pay for survival.

id leave it with my bike gear [helmet etc] so that id remember the grab it each day or each time i went on a decent trip.

[CookMySock]

No-one would have had any idea where I was.This is a situation I try and avoid, biking or otherwise. I always tell someone where I am going.
I guess thats not feasible or even desireable with adventure riding - part of the going bush thing.

Remember you have feet though, and if you are smart you will also have a means to survive a night in the open - mandatory IMO. If someone has no warmies, no food and drink, a wrecked bike, AND a wrecked ankle, then they are a dick. Equivalent to going fishing with no radio, flares, lifejackets, and telling no one where they are going.

In answer to Radars question. If went deep-country adventure riding yes I would spend $50 on a beacon. $500, uh, no, unless I was heading unsupported into really deep country in cold weather, and even then I don't think I would go on such a trip alone.

Steve

[FJRider]

So... in all practicalitys, what time delay could be expected from activation, to when the rescue chopper is overhead... ???

[98tls]

Might be helpful at some of the bigger rallys when go back to the tent time youve no fuckin idea what way to go.:doh:

[FJRider]

Remember you have feet though, and if you are smart you will also have a means to survive a night in the open - mandatory IMO. If someone has no warmies, no food and drink, a wrecked bike, AND a wrecked ankle, then they are a dick. Equivalent to going fishing with no radio, flares, lifejackets, and telling no one where they are going.



In my youth, in times often spent on off road motorcycles, when going into back of beyond areas... I often took a tent. Even if not intending to camp in there. It did get used on some occasions...

[Hockenrider]

Another option we were given for back counrty riding and have used instead of a beacon was a satellite radio. Hire cost for three days riding was $40.00and just as small as a beacon to carry .
After speaking with the search and rescue person here in Dunedin the radio is a better tool for motorcyclists in his mind as once connected (connect aerial )
we can tell someone at the other end exactly what our issue is and where we are in the area's that we stated when picking it up .

Room for thought maybe ?

[slofox]

I knew someone (well known person eventually - now deceased) who may well have had a very different life if such a beacon was around at the time. (Was no GPS in them there days.) But in the particular case, yes, it would have saved maybe twelve hours of agony and perhaps mobility as well....

[davereid]

I carry my handheld VHF marine radio with me when hunting, or on my bike miles from nowhere.

Marine repeaters have massive coverage of NZ, even inland, and many are monitored 24 hrs a day, particularly CH16.

Plus rescue helicopter has CH6 and CH16 onboard, so if you can see or hear the chopper you can talk to them.

You could expect up to 100km of range from a handheld if you are at a high point, even with as little as 5 watts.

From a legal point of view, its not really kosher, but if you only used it in an emergency, you are within the law, as you may use any frequency at your disposal if life is at risk.

[mctshirt]

So... in all practicalitys, what time delay could be expected from activation, to when the rescue chopper is overhead... ???

With the old 121.5/243 MHz PLB you were looking at up to 48 hours especially if your line of sight to the satellites is restricted e.g. in a steep sided gully. AFAIK the only difference with the non-GPS 406 Mhz jobbies apart from a different frequency (to reduce false alarms associated with the 121 MHZ PLB's) is they send a unique embedded code that is matched to your registered emergency contact details. The GPS 406 Mhz models also send a GPS co-ordinate acquired from the 30 odd GPS Sats orbiting the earth at any given moment and start at around $700. You will also need at least an emergency blanket for quite possible overnight stays.

A satphone at $2000 from Telecom (or hire one) is a more useful option than a PLB/EPIRB/ELB and a far better investment in safety although the marine VHF radio as mentioned would be running a close second in an emergency situation.

IMHO the most reliable option remains telling someone where you're going and when you plan to be back.

[Gman71]

If the $50 is to hire a new 406mhs beacon- go for it. But for God's sake don't buy a 121.5 mhz beacon- they are obsolete and nor monitored anymore and there are probbaly people out there trying to flog them off. you will just lie there and wait.....!

and yes, if you are going back of beyond, thay are a great idea, response time could be as little as 1 hour until Mr Whirlybird hovers overhead.

[Radar]

for God's sake don't buy a 121.5 mhz beacon- they are obsolete and nor monitored anymore. you will just lie there and die waiting.....and it is probbaly what you are being offered at $50!

.

Gman71 - the $50 price is hypothetical. I started this thread saying "Would you buy an emergency locator beacon on bike trips if it was only $50?"

You will see from my post 79 on the other thread that I mention, that Trig Instruments (http://www.triginstruments.co.nz/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=873)only stock the new beacons. It would be very unlikely that any distributor would still sell the 121.5 mhz beacons!

What I am trying to find is if price is a barrier. However, from the comments so far, I can see that there is a real advantage to using a VHF Marine or Satellite phone, plus it is unknown how long it would take for the emergency services to be contacted after the beacon is activated.

[Radar]

I carry my handheld VHF marine radio with me when hunting, or on my bike miles from nowhere.

Marine repeaters have massive coverage of NZ, even inland, and many are monitored 24 hrs a day, particularly CH16.

Plus rescue helicopter has CH6 and CH16 onboard, so if you can see or hear the chopper you can talk to them.

You could expect up to 100km of range from a handheld if you are at a high point, even with as little as 5 watts.

From a legal point of view, its not really kosher, but if you only used it in an emergency, you are within the law, as you may use any frequency at your disposal if life is at risk.


Using marine radios seems a good idea, although I would think ham radio VHF repeaters would have greater coverage since they aim for land, not marine locations. As you say, in an emergency situation the 'illegal' use (of not having a license and not using as the license intends) would most likely not be an issue. I held a ham license for over 25 years; it has expired but I will make contact with the NZART regarding repeater coverage with a hand held transceiver.

[Gman71]

Gman71 - the $50 price is hypothetical. I started this thread saying "Would you buy an emergency locator beacon on bike trips if it was only $50?"

It would be very unlikely that any distributor would still sell the 121.5 mhz beacons!




ah gotcha.

wasn't assuming a distributor was selling a 121.5 but some clown will probably be trying to off load one on Tarde me.

Hell, I'd buy a beacon if they were $1500 and I was going back of beyond, let alone $500.


rent one seems like a good compromise

[davereid]

Using marine radios seems a good idea, although I would think ham radio VHF repeaters would have greater coverage since they aim for land, not marine locations. As you say, in an emergency situation the 'illegal' use (of not having a license and not using as the license intends) would most likely not be an issue. I held a ham license for over 25 years; it has expired but I will make contact with the NZART regarding repeater coverage with a hand held transceiver.

Hi Radar, yes I am a "ham", ZL2DR !. The handheld I take is a Yaesu 2m rig which cover all the 2m ham stuff, as well as marine.

You can rent (at modest cost) small H.F. rigs which of course have excellent range. They do require setting up, which can be a bit of a mission as you have to put up a fairly extensive dipole aerial, which can be a trick if you have fallen off yer bike and have 2 broken legs.

PRS is another option and would be completely legal for all users, but there are few repeaters, and they are not monitored 24/7.

I think the VHF marine radio is a good emergency compromise, which most anyone could use.

They are cheap, water resistant, light weight and of course many people already have them.

The key features being that CH16 is monitored 24/7.

Even if you are not in range of a repeater, they are fitted to SAR helicopters, which, once in the air have massive (radio) range.

I guess its a case of being pragmatic. The best item is a new EPIRB, but at $1500 for occasional use it is very expensive, particularly when batteries need to be replaced evry 5 or so years.

A $150 handheld VHF radio would be a much more "budget appropriate" device for most of us !

[Radar]

Hi Radar, yes I am a "ham", ZL2DR !. The handheld I take is a Yaesu 2m rig which cover all the 2m ham stuff, as well as marine.

You can rent (at modest cost) small H.F. rigs which of course have excellent range. They do require setting up, which can be a bit of a mission as you have to put up a fairly extensive dipole aerial, which can be a trick if you have fallen off yer bike and have 2 broken legs.

PRS is another option and would be completely legal for all users, but there are few repeaters, and they are not monitored 24/7.

I think the VHF marine radio is a good emergency compromise, which most anyone could use.

They are cheap, water resistant, light weight and of course many people already have them.

The key features being that CH16 is monitored 24/7.

Even if you are not in range of a repeater, they are fitted to SAR helicopters, which, once in the air have massive (radio) range.

I guess its a case of being pragmatic. The best item is a new EPIRB, but at $1500 for occasional use it is very expensive, particularly when batteries need to be replaced evry 5 or so years.

A $150 handheld VHF radio would be a much more "budget appropriate" device for most of us !

hi dave. fb! wx sunny 24 deg. rig nil bt this internet v gd. wat sa om? 73s de ZL1 / VK3 / N0 / WB0 / WA8 / WN8

Well well, there doesn't seem many of us hams left these days. I must say that Dave Reid sounded familiar and I nearly asked if you were a ham. Were you ever a ZL1 or in the BOP or Waikato?

A VHF marine xcvr does seem good. Only $150? Is that second hand? How about this one (http://www.dse.co.nz/dse.shop/49bef9020168c19e2743c0a87f3b06f2/Product/View/D9039), at $228, 1 and 5 watt.

I still think marine VHF would not be as good as 2m ham, but a license is needed to purchase a new transceiver although Tardme is an option I guess.

Beacons do not cost $1500, or maybe you are referring to a special kind. I rang Trig Instruments (see link further above) and the tech there said the $530 unit would be the best (price) option for land.

[Radar]

This afternoon I spoke with the office manager at Life Flight (http://www.lifeflight.org.nz/contact_us.php) (includes Westpac Air Ambulance Rescue), who was helpful in answering my questions (as far as she could). She will try to get someone who is in the 'search and rescue department' to answer more specific questions of what would be helpful at the time of an accident or medical emergency. When I receive more information from the experts in the field, I will report back here.

[davereid]

This afternoon I spoke with the office manager at Life Flight (http://www.lifeflight.org.nz/contact_us.php) (includes Westpac Air Ambulance Rescue), who was helpful in answering my questions (as far as she could). She will try to get someone who is in the 'search and rescue department' to answer more specific questions of what would be helpful at the time of an accident or medical emergency. When I receive more information from the experts in the field, I will report back here.

I help out (as infrequently as I can manage) at SAR here in Levin. I am sure you will be given the excellent advice to purchase the EPIRB you linked to, as it is good value at $550.

Even if they privately thought it was a good idea, SAR would never recommend carrying marine VHF into inland areas, so your advice I am sure will (quite correctly) be an ebirb.

Nonetheless, if you are not going to purchase or rent an ebirb or HF radio, and you already have a VHF marine radio, throwing it in your bag may not be a bad idea.

Particularly if the contact people who will be calling SAR on your behalf know you have it, and that you will be "on-air" if overdue 5 mins either side of the hour on CH16.

The radio you linked is a good choice. With a budget pack of AA batteries, it gives you tons of reserve, and it cannot be made obsolete by the manufacturer changing battery packs.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

P.S..... What do I think an EPIRB is worth ? Not $550 anyway. You can buy a PRS handheld operating in a similar frequency band, with lot of flash features like CTCSS, quiet tones, etc for $60. And of course, it also has a receiver with all the same features !

A basic coded EBIRB should realistically cost about $100 and work on inexpensive batteries like AA cells. IMHO (as a professional electronics engineer) there is no reason for EPIRBS to cost more - they really don't have any flash technology justifying a higher price.

[Howie]

Are emergency beacons useful for motorcyclists?

I answered yes even at $550.00:

I think yes they are a useful tool for Biking. So are a lot of other things, and like a lot of other people I have a budget to live within. So it becomes another nice to have item on my wish list.
In saying that it is all about risk management, someone usualy knows roughly what area I am riding in, and I don't tend to do real off road riding on my own.

[Radar]

...Nonetheless, if you are not going to purchase or rent an ebirb or HF radio, and you already have a VHF marine radio, throwing it in your bag may not be a bad idea.


... You can buy a PRS handheld operating in a similar frequency band, with lot of flash features like CTCSS, quiet tones, etc for $60. And of course, it also has a receiver with all the same features !


What is the coverage of PRS repeaters? I tried several googles and found nothing. AFAIK CB radio is not as popular these days, probably due to cell phones. If CB (emergency channel) is not monitored then it would not be worthwhile.

Regarding VHF Marine, I have anticipated the official response to go for a beacon instead (due to legal issues / regulations of recommending marine radio for land use). What I would like to know from the emergency-rescue services is what a typical delay would be from when the beacon is activated to the time local emergency services are alerted.

[CookMySock]

Carrying a UHF CB is almost useless, unless you have a line-of-sight repeater, or nearly line-of-sight, and its a $200 radio not a $35 one. We had a pair of cheapies in the bush, and they were completely useless after about 200 meters.

Marine VHF is not a dumb idea. Even though you are not authorised to be using it under such circumstances, there is no way they will ignore an emergency call from you. Also you need a quality radio with a high gain external antenna, or else you are severely hampered.

2M amatuer radio will be good, if you have a license to use it. The hard part will be finding which is the local repeater channel, and then getting someone to answer your call.

HF (amatuer or otherwise) radio will be awesome, provided you have a license for it, and know how to use it, and how to find someone to talk to, and provided you don't hook it up for fun and blabber on it all evening!

What we really need, is a tiny low-power (1 watt) PSK31 Beacon simultaneously transmitting on 7 and 3.5 MHz, broadcasting a continuous help message and a GPS location, on a set frequency. It needs to be no bigger than a pack of smokes, with a little pull out antenna a few metres long. That little unit will instantly get a distress signal and position out for a thousand mile radius, day or night. Maybe if there are automated stations that scan for them and alert the authorities.

Interesting.
Steve

[mujambee]

What I would like to know from the emergency-rescue services is what a typical delay would be from when the beacon is activated to the time local emergency services are alerted.

See here: Australian Maritime Safety Authority (http://beacons.amsa.gov.au/activation.asp)

I've also found this in the news: Woman rescued in 4,500-mile alert (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/north_east/7599683.stm)

Your $525 is with or without a GPS? The cheaper I could find over here was $1016 (415€) w/o a GPS and $1640 (655€) with GPS included.


Anyhow, all that is being discussed here (beacons, radio,...) needs your intervention. What if you have gone down and lay inconscious just behind those bushes so no one will see you from the road?

[Kerosene cowboy]

could come in handy if in middle of nowhere

[mujambee]

What we really need, is a tiny low-power (1 watt) PSK31 Beacon simultaneously transmitting on 7 and 3.5 MHz, broadcasting a continuous help message and a GPS location, on a set frequency. It needs to be no bigger than a pack of smokes, with a little pull out antenna a few metres long. That little unit will instantly get a distress signal and position out for a thousand mile radius, day or night. Maybe if there are automated stations that scan for them and alert the authorities.


Is that a proposal or there exists something similar to that?

That (and this thread (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=94253)) has sparked a new idea: What about a bike2bike alert system?

Each bike could be fitted with a small unit. It usually is on receive mode, listening into a fixed frequency. If it receives an emergency signal it starts a warning (maybe horn and lights flash), so it's rider knows someone is in trouble nearby.
The emergency call could be started manually or automatically if the bike is down.

That would help find a lost biker by other bikers around.


Obviously this would require a lot of develoment and a lot of licensing and a lot of cooperation and a lot of money and ....

[mctshirt]

Anyhow, all that is being discussed here (beacons, radio,...) needs your intervention. What if you have gone down and lay inconscious just behind those bushes so no one will see you from the road?

Ride with a buddy or tell someone where you're going and when you will be back - not very hi-tech but most effective

From an old 121 MHz PLB instruction book:
GEOGRAPHICAL VISIBILITY AREAS 121.5/243 MHz
BEACONS BY COSPAS-SARSAT LUTs
The visibility area from existing LUTs already covers most
countries and surrounding waters in the northern hemisphere as
well as South America and Australasia (see diagram).
Planned extensions to the system will further increase the area.
Depending on the distress position and the satellite overflight path, the
Mini Res-Q-Sat EPIRB activated within 900 km of the Australian coast
should be detected by the COSPAS-SARSAT satellite system within 6
hours of activation. This time lapse will reduce to 3 hours or less, the
closer the position is to the coastline, where Mini Res-Q-Sat, the
satellite and LUT are more likely to be in mutual visibility.

Which is around the time given on Aussie Maritime Safety Authority site:
NOTE: Polar-orbiting satellites over-fly the Australian region on average every 90 minutes but passes may be anywhere from minutes to 5 hours apart. To improve response times, ensure distress beacons are registered and inform emergency contacts of trip details.

You have to get lucky to get a helicopter leaving moments after you push the button and IIRC without the GPS system the first satellite past can only give a position within 15-20 square kilometres. The next satellite past 90 minutes later narrows down the position and then the next one although aircraft are fitted with receivers so you might get lucky.

PLB's aren't useless but they aren't magic either.

[sunhuntin]

Ride with a buddy or tell someone where you're going and when you will be back - not very hi-tech but most effective

thats generally what i do when travelling, and thats accompanied by ph calls home at the end of each day. during that call, i give the folks an estimate of where im heading the next day. they know i tend to stick to the main roads, which is a bonus. they also know that if i dont phone at the end of the day, or early the next morning at the very latest, theres something wrong. a few times there has been a bit of worry when ive been late getting in and considered it too late to call, so left it till the next morning. but that doesnt happen too often.

but a beacon like whats being suggested is something i would carry just for peace of mind. i do like the idea of something that activates a passing bike, but some roads dont get much bike traffic, so thered need to be a back up to that.

[LittleJohn]

I work in the marine industry, travelling far and on rough seas. Every ship in our fleet as several EPIRB's on them as well as some SART's. The old 121.5 mhz EPIRB's are no longer so make sure you don't get a second hand one of these. They are going to stop the constant checking on this frequency soon (so I've been told). Also the new EPIRB's can pin-point your position down to a few km's or less.

Not sure about the EPIRB's you are talking about in question but the marine ones have to be registered with your details and boat name, call sign etc... This is a free service, just means that if your EPIRB is activated the first thing they do is try and contact you to discover if it was set off by accident. If no response then they start the SAR mission.

Marine VHF is a good idea as it is land based as well to pick-up on a lot of the lakes used around NZ. If you contacted Maritime NZ they can supply you with a list of all the different frequencies around NZ and there coverage. As some have mentioned there is CH16 for emergency (life threatening) but there are other channels, some local, to provide help and assistance. You can also let them know your route and timeframe. Also don't forget that there are certain protocols for use with radios. To obtain a VHF licence (marine anyway) is relatively simple. They give you a book, you study it and then go and sit a simple test.... easy as that.

Both EPIRB's and VHF radios have there uses and good/bad points. The safest thing to do is ride with others and let people know your route and timeframe.

As for the question, if I was adventure riding or riding solo a bit then yes I would get one at what-ever cost, as for a $50 option, would probably get one just to be on the safe side.

[Radar]

See here: Australian Maritime Safety Authority (http://beacons.amsa.gov.au/activation.asp)

I've also found this in the news: Woman rescued in 4,500-mile alert (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/north_east/7599683.stm)

Your $525 is with or without a GPS? The cheaper I could find over here was $1016 (415€) w/o a GPS and $1640 (655€) with GPS included.


Anyhow, all that is being discussed here (beacons, radio,...) needs your intervention. What if you have gone down and lay inconscious just behind those bushes so no one will see you from the road?

The $525 beacon does have GPS - it would have to give a location otherwise the beacon would only emit a signal that an aircraft could home in on. The more expensive Trig Instruments beacon has a better GPS and is used at sea. The tech I spoke with said the $525 beacon would be OK for land use - the more expensive unit would not have an advantage (something to do with finding the beacon north which may be impossible on land).

So what if we lay knocked out hidden in bushes, alone? Clearly we would be crapped out big time. This happened to a woman last year in our area on the Rimutaka's, a mountain road. Her car went off the steep side into the bush. She was conscious but could not move and did not have a cellphone (may not have worked anyway over the side). She was rescued the next day - I think a family member carefully walked the road and noticed marks indicating an accident.

However, when alone, crashed in the bush where passing motorists would not see us, it is not a given that we would be knocked out. We could be conscious but unable to walk or crawl for help, passing motorists may not hear our screams, and there may be no cell phone coverage. In this case it would be sure nice to have a personal beacon.

Most of us know how easy it is to make a error going around a curve, swing wide and go off the road. Scuba divers, trampers / hikers know that going alone is dangerous, but we motorcyclists don't give it a thought since there is usually other traffic on the road that would see our accident happen, or there would be barriers preventing us going in to the bushes.

It is all about risk management, similar to insurance. How many of us wear protective clothing, boots, helmets, and do up our car seat belts? Surely over 99% of us do so, but it sure was not like this a generation ago. I see a time when back, chest and knee protectors will be worn by many more of us, along with ear plugs.

Back to the main topic: The poll on this thread indicates that about 3/4 of us would get an emergency beacon, if the price is right. But it is not certain whether a beacon would actually be useful, or more useful than a hand held radio transceiver. What the poll does seem to indicate is that most of us are concerned about having an emergency in a remote area with no cell phone coverage, and getting help quickly. Flat tyres we can deal with but serious injury is another matter.

$530 is a lot to spend on something that would probably be / hopefully be never used. But a motorcycle club could afford it, or several friends who go dirt biking in remote areas could get one.

From mujambee's link:

A distress beacon with an encoded (GPS) location is usually detected by the RCC and located within minutes. Distress beacons that do not have the capability to provide an encoded position also provide an initial alert to the RCC within minutes, but there will be no associated position. If emergency contacts are aware of trip details or trip details have been submitted online, search operations can be commenced much sooner. If the RCC has to rely on Polar-orbiting satellites to determine the location of a beacon, the time to gain an accurate position may take longer thereby delaying search operations.

NOTE: Polar-orbiting satellites over-fly the Australian region on average every 90 minutes but passes may be anywhere from minutes to 5 hours apart. To improve response times, ensure distress beacons are registered and inform emergency contacts of trip details.

I will ring Trig Instruments again to clarify how the $530 beacon provides location; from memory I believe it relies on satellites as mentioned above so there could be a long delay which would negate the whole point of getting help quickly (quicker than finding cellphone reception or a landline and figuring out how to describe the exact location of the accident).

[Radar]

Marine VHF is a good idea as it is land based as well to pick-up on a lot of the lakes used around NZ. If you contacted Maritime NZ they can supply you with a list of all the different frequencies around NZ and there coverage.

From a Google search, I found a map of maritime radio coverage. See attached photo.

Aside from areas near Invercargill and Whangarei, the only inland Maritime Radio repeater is for Lake Taupo and maybe the Rotorua lakes - but these are HF, not VHF or UHF that are used with hand held units.

If I was a boatie and had a maritime hand held transceiver, I would take it while biking, otherwise I would think that there would be many areas where it would not work (such as inland Wairarapa).

Let's remember also that you need a license, requiring an exam (simple but a cost and hassle), and getting it for land use would not be entirely legit.

[Radar]

Ride with a buddy or tell someone where you're going and when you will be back - not very hi-tech but most effective



Yes, this is true. Going with at least one other person is the key - they will get help.

If you ride alone and leave your route and schedule, it may not be so useful. Your route may be several hundred km's - it would not be effective to search the entire route.

[CookMySock]

Is that a proposal or there exists something similar to that?No, and no. I just pulled it out of thin air right then. Do you like it? ;)


That (and this thread (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=94253)) has sparked a new idea: What about a bike2bike alert system?

Each bike could be fitted with a small unit. It usually is on receive mode, listening into a fixed frequency. If it receives an emergency signal it starts a warning (maybe horn and lights flash), so it's rider knows someone is in trouble nearby.
The emergency call could be started manually or automatically if the bike is down.Naw I think that is overkill. All we really NEED is a cheap GPS-based beacon that works every time. As soon as you leave it on receive mode, then you have battery life to worry about. As a safety device, we must be able to pull its antenna out, and poke its button, and it goes and stays going for the next six hours at least.



Obviously this would require a lot of develoment and a lot of licensing and a lot of cooperation and a lot of money and ....Naw it just needs one person to make one and use it, and GPL the design and make a project website for it. Everything will snowball after that. Even if it was on the amatuer 80 and 40m bands (provided it was located in a sensible manner) I think the hams would not care - in fact, I would say that they would join in with us in the monitoring of it.

Ideally though, it would need to be monitored properly, but thats just software and a receiver.


Steve

[Jantar]

A few things that have come up in this thread:

The old 121.5 monitoring by satellite has already been discontinued on Feb 1st trhis year. Some aircraft still monitor this frequency as an international distress frequency, but even if they did hear a tone they would have no idea where to look. Do not even consider one of these older beacons.

The new beacons are available with GPS at a good price, and that price is continuing to fall.

Now as to how they work: Once activated they send out a signal which is picked up by an orbiting satellite. These satellites pass over on average once every 3 hours, but as someone has already said, that isn't every 3 hours and the time can vary. If your ELB has a GPS then the location is sent to the satellite and your location is known to SAR within seconds of the satellite detecting your signal.

If your ELB does not have GPS then on the first pass a message goes to SAR saying that a signal has been received within 200 NM of the track of the satellite. From the time of first detection to loss of signal the approximate distance from the satellite track is known, but not to which side of the track. A second pass 3 hours later will narrow the search field down to a much closer area, and a third pass will bring the search down to within a few kms of the site. So anywhere from 6 to 9 hours after activation SAR know where to start looking. Having a GPS enabled beacon saves all that initial time.

[Radar]

Useful links:

Beacons
http://beacons.org.nz/

Rent a beacon
http://beacons.org.nz/rent-a-beacon.aspx

Mountain Safety
http://mountainsafety.org.nz/

How beacons work. Where to buy or rent beacons.
http://www.mountainsafety.org.nz/assets/images/radio_communications_2005.pdf


Q's and A's
http://beacons.org.nz/QA.aspx

What are the different types of beacons?

EPIRB’s - Emergency Position Indicating Radio Beacons are distress beacons designed for maritime environments. These devices are designed to float in water.

PLB’s - Personal Locator Beacons are designed for personal use, mainly by bushwalkers, cross-country vehicle clubs, mountaineers and other adventurers on land. They’re also used in gliders. They're small and lightweight, and designed to fit into pockets. They are manually operated.


[EDIT - $498 beacon deleted - US dollars!]
-----------

Found this comment on a NZ tramping site:

Regarding evac within a few hours, vs having to wait till the evening to get a message out and wait till the next day for evac, there are plenty of possible injuries where this time could mean the difference between surviving (or surviving with faculties intact) and not. - Chris. (doctor in my spare time.)

[mujambee]

Do you like it? ;)

Yes :)


As soon as you leave it on receive mode, then you have battery life to worry about.

It would run on the bike's power.


Naw it just needs one person to make one and use it, and GPL the design and make a project website for it. Everything will snowball after that. Even if it was on the amatuer 80 and 40m bands (provided it was located in a sensible manner) I think the hams would not care - in fact, I would say that they would join in with us in the monitoring of it.

If it's light enough you could probably get trekkers, cyclists, hunters, fishers and all other "wildlife" into it.

I think I'm going to get deeper into this, may lead to something usefull after all.



$498 Beacon with GPS
http://www.aviationsafety.co.nz/personal.htm


Did you notice those are US$ ?


Does anyone know if you can purchase those things in one coutry and use them on other? If price difference is that big I'm probably getting one or two when I'm there next summer (winter).

[Radar]

Did you notice those are US$ ?

Does anyone know if you can purchase those things in one coutry and use them on other? If price difference is that big I'm probably getting one or two when I'm there next summer (winter).

No - crap, now its too expensive. I assumed that since it was a NZ site they would have NZ gear. Back to Trig Instruments...

Other NZ sites have warned not to use beacons from other countries - not sure why though.

[Radar]

Another option we were given for back counrty riding and have used instead of a beacon was a satellite radio. Hire cost for three days riding was $40.00and just as small as a beacon to carry .
After speaking with the search and rescue person here in Dunedin the radio is a better tool for motorcyclists in his mind as once connected (connect aerial )
we can tell someone at the other end exactly what our issue is and where we are in the area's that we stated when picking it up .

Room for thought maybe ?

A satellite phone seems the best option, but the most expensive.

Telecom satellite phones HERE (http://www.telecom.co.nz/content/0,8748,205273-201928,00.html).
From the Telecom page:
Callers pay normal calling charges to a Telecom mobile.
Cost for phone is $2000 plus GST.
Monthly access: $30 - the 111 emergency number is free to use but I guess you still would need to set up a plan...?

Conclusion: Way too expensive to purchase.

[CookMySock]

It would run on the bike's power.

If it's light enough you could probably get trekkers, cyclists, hunters, fishers and all other "wildlife" into it.Agreed, but I think it needs to be fully portable. It does not need all that power from a motorcycle battery, and also trampers probably will not be carrying a motorcycle battery with them hehehe.

A PSK31 transmitter is a tiny thing, and because it is so narrow bandwidth it can communicate large distances with very small output power. So it has a GPS receiver, microcontroller, PSK31 transmitter on 3.5 and 7 MHz (or elsewhere), one-shot long-life lithium battery, pull out antenna, all packed in a box the size of a pack of smokes, and it needs to very tough, reliable, and fully waterproof.

The HF transmitter(s) need a DDS chip so it is frequency agile. The microcontroller needs GPL firmware and a USB connector, so users or user groups can reprogram it from their home PC. Mountaineering clubs can task up a few dozen of them at once, or hams can run it on 40M. Others can run the unit continuously as a GPS tracker ala APRS.

edit: google keywords: psk31 beacon dds-60
edit: http://www.ringolake.com/pic_proj/PSK31/pic_psk31.html
edit: http://www.ussc.com/~turner/psk_transmitter.html

Steve

[jim.cox]

Other NZ sites have warned not to use beacons from other countries - not sure why though.

The Beacons have a serial number that is tied to the country of issue

That way when a signal is received they know where to start looking for who owns it...

While I dont want one, the GME units with gps as sold by Trig do look good, and the price is reasonable

[Radar]

Spot Satellite Messenger (http://www.findmespot.com/australianewzealand/index3.php) gives text messenging anywhere. The cost is $115 USD per year, so this could be a good option for clubs.

Thanks to the Fielding Riders (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?p=1997078#post1997078) group for posting about this.

[mujambee]

Spot Satellite Messenger (http://www.findmespot.com/australianewzealand/index3.php) gives text messenging anywhere. The cost is $115 USD per year, so this could be a good option for clubs.

Thanks to the Fielding Riders (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?p=1997078#post1997078) group for posting about this.

Don't like the suscription and all. You shouldn't depend on a private company for this kind of service. And with the 406 beacons at 500 NZ$, youll pay for 3 years and get lifetime (*cough*) service.

[Radar]

Don't like the suscription and all. You shouldn't depend on a private company for this kind of service. And with the 406 beacons at 500 NZ$, youll pay for 3 years and get lifetime (*cough*) service.

I don't like a subscription charge either, but the Spot Messenger gives two way communication. The problem with a Personal Locator Beacon is the emergency services (or your friends and family who are alerted) will not know what is wrong, what type of rescue / medical attention is needed, or if it is a false alert - all this can take precious time to sort out.

[mujambee]

I don't like a subscription charge either, but the Spot Messenger gives two way communication. The problem with a Personal Locator Beacon is the emergency services (or your friends and family who are alerted) will not know what is wrong, what type of rescue / medical attention is needed, or if it is a false alert - all this can take precious time to sort out.

That is a good point on the Spot system.

Anyhow, when I was in ambulances we usually didn't pay much attention to what was reported, and prepared for the worst possible situation. Most people don't know how to report an accident and tell you "He has a broken arm", and the poor guy may be bleeding inside. It's safer to take always the basic precautions and sort it out on site.

[Radar]

That is a good point on the Spot system.

Anyhow, when I was in ambulances we usually didn't pay much attention to what was reported, and prepared for the worst possible situation. Most people don't know how to report an accident and tell you "He has a broken arm", and the poor guy may be bleeding inside. It's safer to take always the basic precautions and sort it out on site.

If a locator beacon that is registered to a motorcyclist goes off, will an ambulance or rescue helicopter be sent? I doubt it, at least not for a long while. If a motorcyclist has internal bleeding or other serious injury, they will need medical attention ASAP. It is not like a yacht at sea or a lost tramper in the mountains - these people may not be able to make it to safety but will not need immediate medical help. The problem I see with beacons is that help may not be sent for a long time.

[Jantar]

.... The problem I see with beacons is that help may not be sent for a long time.
When an ELB is activated help is sent immediately it is detected by the satelite. The only delay is waiting for the satelite to pass over which is on average every 3 hours. An ELB should not be activated unless it IS an emergency (ie an accident in a remote area). The SAR people would be rather upset to send a helicopter to a road site for a flat tyre.

[mujambee]

When an ELB is activated help is sent immediately it is detected by the satelite. The only delay is waiting for the satelite to pass over which is on average every 3 hours. An ELB should not be activated unless it IS an emergency (ie an accident in a remote area). The SAR people would be rather upset to send a helicopter to a road site for a flat tyre.

The "satellite pass" wait happens only if your beacon has no GPS attached and you have not declared a route, so they need to triangulate your position.


Something that may be worth learning is: what rescue team will they send you?


Been doing a bit of research here and found out that, in my usual riding area, they have a "granted" 60 minutes to reach any point of the area with a rescue group (including any spot, not limited to roads) and 90 minutes to give medical assistance. That will probably take much less time if you are on a road.

So unless you can talk to them they are likely to send someone to "have a look". Here those people are specialists coming from a semi-military police force; but have only first aid training, no doctor there.

[Radar]

Spot Satellite Messenger (http://www.findmespot.com/australianewzealand/index3.php) gives text messenging anywhere. The cost is $115 USD per year, so this could be a good option for clubs.



There is a thread on Stromtrooper forum (http://www.stromtrooper.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33799)about the Spot Messenger. Many interesting comments about Spot, and PLB's. The general consensus is that Spot is worth it, and everyone agrees that either a Spot or PLB is necessary when traveling solo in remote areas. Most comments are from the USA but there is one from Australia.

See also this review (http://www.stromtrooper.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33799) on the GPS Magazine site. There are mixed comments. Spot may work better down here in the Southern Hemisphere, e.g. this comment: I have been using a SPOT unit for the past 7 weeks travelling South to North of Australia, and return. I was testing SPOT for usability, reliability and effectiveness and i must say I had no issues whatsoever using it dash mounted. When checking progress on Google, I found SPOT to have recorded when and where I was very accurately. Maybe Globalstar doesn't have the same problem in the southern hemisphere. SPOT works, I like it.

On Sunday I will be on a ride with someone who has a Spot Messenger; they will enter my email address into the unit so when I get back home I can see how effective it has been.

[Hitcher]

Can I vote again? I thought this was about emergency locator bacon.

[mujambee]

There is a thread on Stromtrooper forum (http://www.stromtrooper.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33799)about the Spot Messenger. Many interesting comments about Spot, and PLB's. The general consensus is that Spot is worth it, and everyone agrees that either a Spot or PLB is necessary when traveling solo in remote areas. Most comments are from the USA but there is one from Australia.

See also this review (http://www.stromtrooper.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33799) on the GPS Magazine site. There are mixed comments. Spot may work better down here in the Southern Hemisphere, e.g. this comment: I have been using a SPOT unit for the past 7 weeks travelling South to North of Australia, and return. I was testing SPOT for usability, reliability and effectiveness and i must say I had no issues whatsoever using it dash mounted. When checking progress on Google, I found SPOT to have recorded when and where I was very accurately. Maybe Globalstar doesn't have the same problem in the southern hemisphere. SPOT works, I like it.

Have a look here (http://www.gpsmagazine.com/comments/000419.php#comments). Most posters there are pissed with spot.

One comment there: I had the unfortunate occasion to use the 911 feature when I assisted a few folks involved in a 5th wheel trailer accident. Emergency services were not promptly, if ever, notified by SPOT.

SPOT uses the GPS network to get a position (takes up to 20min), and the Globalstar network to transmit messages, but it has only uplink, which means that you don't really know if your message went through. Anyhow, that's the same with EPIRBS, so no big deal there.

The Globalstar satellites work better in the southern hemisphere, I've even read that some of their northern birds are already dead; and it looks like they are using a dying network.

I've found this website (http://www.gsmworld.com/roaming/gsminfo/index.shtml), with coverage maps for lots of networks, including the Globalstar one (there is a Satellite link before the country names).



On Sunday I will be on a ride with someone who has a Spot Messenger; they will enter my email address into the unit so when I get back home I can see how effective it has been.

Will you have online tracking? It may be interesting to track you realtime from the other side of the world :)



Can I vote again? I thought this was about emergency locator bacon.

¿Uh? This is about emergency locator beacons, isn't it?

[Radar]

Will you have online tracking? It may be interesting to track you realtime from the other side of the world :)


Not sure. If there is online tracking I will let you know.

Yes I did see the negative comments about Spot - and also noted that they were in the N hemisphere. I will certainly question the rider that has Spot on Sunday (hopefully they are not also a salesperson for Spot so I can get an honest review).

[mujambee]

On Sunday I will be on a ride with someone who has a Spot Messenger; they will enter my email address into the unit so when I get back home I can see how effective it has been.

So, could you try it?

[Jantar]

The "satellite pass" wait happens only if your beacon has no GPS attached and you have not declared a route, so they need to triangulate your position.
.....

I don't know just how your ELBs communicate in spain without a satelite to communicate with, but here in NZ we don't have nationwide cellphone coverage, and even GPS equiped ELBs still need the appropriate satelite. With a GPS equiped unit it just requires a single pass, with a non GPS equiped unit it requires at least 2 passes.

If I was to set off a beacon on my property (1 km from a road) I could expect a helicopter overhead aproximately 90 minutes after the satelite pass. If it was set off on a road then an ambulance and police would be dispatched by road.

[Radar]

So, could you try it?

The rider who was supposed to have the Spot Messenger was on the ride but I forgot completely about it - too much fun riding and chatting with everyone! She told me something about Google and email but I was busy taking pics & vids with my ear plugs in, and I could not figure what she was talking about. In any case, I did not receive the emails from along the route like she said would happen.

[CookMySock]

Have a look here (http://www.gpsmagazine.com/comments/000419.php#comments). Most posters there are pissed with spot.

One comment there: I had the unfortunate occasion to use the 911 feature when I assisted a few folks involved in a 5th wheel trailer accident. Emergency services were not promptly, if ever, notified by SPOT.Theres a huge amount of opinion stated as fact in that gpsmagazine article.

There isn't really a satellite available cheaply for this purpose, which is probably why there are few or no useable products on the market. I dunno why they don't look at an HF solution - it would be much much cheaper than a satellite based one.

Steve

[mujambee]

I don't know just how your ELBs communicate in spain without a satelite to communicate with, but here in NZ we don't have nationwide cellphone coverage, and even GPS equiped ELBs still need the appropriate satelite. With a GPS equiped unit it just requires a single pass, with a non GPS equiped unit it requires at least 2 passes.

It has nothing to do with the country you are in, it is how the comsat-sarsat system works. See here (http://www.cospas-sarsat.org), there is a "Description" menu which tells you how it works.

The trick is that, even if you don't have a GPS enabled beacon, your distress signal will be picked up by a GEOSAR and relayed inmediately. If you have declared a route, emergency teams can be dispatched along that route even without an exact fix. That may be much faster than waiting for the 3 or 6 hour pass.


The rider who was supposed to have the Spot Messenger was on the ride but I forgot completely about it - too much fun riding and chatting with everyone! She told me something about Google and email but I was busy taking pics & vids with my ear plugs in, and I could not figure what she was talking about. In any case, I did not receive the emails from along the route like she said would happen.

:oi-grr:


Theres a huge amount of opinion stated as fact in that gpsmagazine article.

Too true. Looks to me like most problems come from the fact that the unit has only four buttons and four leds. A display telling you what's happening would have been a good addition. Some people say that battery life was a must in the design of the SPOT and that led to that poor design, including a cheap low-power GPS processor that needs a lot of time to pick up.


There isn't really a satellite available cheaply for this purpose, which is probably why there are few or no useable products on the market.

Spot is a subsidiary of Globalstar (which is the owner of the satellites).

[davereid]

I dunno why they don't look at an HF solution - it would be much much cheaper than a satellite based one.

It's because H.F. requires large antennas to radiate energy efficiently.

The 3.5 Mhz beacon you discussed needs an aerial. If you chose a half wave dipole it would be 40 metres long. Even a 1/4 antenna would be 20 metres long, and it would work poorly wihout a groundplane.

You can of course use a non-resonant antenna, but you will get very poor effective radiation.

At 406 MHz a 6" antenna works well, hence the trend for higher frequencies.