PT racers or thinking about racing PT

[FROSTY]

Following on from the discussion about Pro twins . Could I ask for a vote from Pro twins racers or potential PT racers out there.
Question being
If the rules were as outlined below WOULD you race PT?

The second part of the poll this is for existing PT racers
How major would it be for you to convert your bike back to the specs outlined below? Ie would you/could you if the rules changed?

Proposed pro twins rules.
1) NO engine modification allowed,
2)no power commanders or other injection tuning devices No carburetter changes
2) Exhaust system to be factory stock back to but not including muffler.
3) bodywork to be factory available for that make/model or Direct replicas thereof both front and rear.-specifically you CAN use faired SV fairings if your SV was purchased as a naked ditto the ER and Hyusung. also tail fairings could be a one piece allowing with the rear seat as a cast part of it.
4)gearing to remain factory 15/45 not the naked optional 15/44
5) bike not to exceed 75hp
6) brakes to be factory master cylinder/lines and calipers for that model. Pad choice is open.
7) Front suspension to remain in factory FORM internally and externally so allowing spring /oil damping rod changes/mods and emmulators--specifically excluding use of cartredge type aftermarket components.
8) Rear suspension ==A specific range of aftermarket alternatives which are down the bottom end of the price scale.
9) footpegs,hanger brackets,handlebars,levers can be replaced with lower cost alternatives but must closely resemble factory equipment
10) Engine crankcase covers may be replaced with alternatives with crash protection,also crash bungs are permitted.
11) HOPEFULLY -control tyres -as Ive outlined earlier the idea being that every year the tender gets offered to the major brands to be pro twins tyre supplier --they get the sales but in exchange the price is heavilly discounted.
12) front and rear subframes may be replaced provided there is no weight advantage.
13) muffler choice is open provided it passes local track noise restrictions.

[FROSTY]

bumpety bump bump.

[koba]

Its a bit more complex than a simple yes/no for me.

[FROSTY]

Its a bit more complex than a simple yes/no for me.
it always is mate. This is to see just how many potential PT racers there are out there that got put off by how much was involved in building a competative bike. Or maybee its not that But you can only ask

[GSVR]

From the trackdays and meetings I've attended locally theres plenty of SVs being raced and built. Some may find F3 a better class to enter as the two classes are run together and as Paul Buckley showed you will get a better overall result as some fast club racers have decided to run in ProTwin.

Main reason I see for these bikes not showing at the Nationals is the people can race much more cheaply at cub level against people closer to their level of skill and machinery development.

Which brings about another question. If the enteries doubled to the National events would the cost of entry decrease?

[svr]

Some may find F3 a better class to enter as the two classes are run together and as Paul Buckley showed you will get a better overall result as some fast club racers have decided to run in ProTwin.


Paul didn't get on with the standard front end, and had a decent one in the garage (it's cheaper to replace than modify).
In F3 you can go faster for less money, use any old slick tyres lying around, and should get a trophy if you win (unlike last years' PMC PT series, ahem...).
Should have been 650 production...

[Deano]

I don't agree with 3 or 4 - they don't make a lot of difference and not a matter of $$$ either - in fact could save $$ if you can score a second hand fairing off another model. I think braided brake lines should also be allowed.

The rest I could live with.

[FROSTY]

I don't agree with 3 or 4 - they don't make a lot of difference and not a matter of $$$ either - in fact could save $$ if you can score a second hand fairing off another model. I think braided brake lines should also be allowed.

The rest I could live with.
Good onya :clap:

[FROSTY]

folks um If you dont mind -Please don't vote on the pole if you have no interest In PT.

Im just following a line of thought from another thread to encourage more racers or potential racers.

[johnsv650]

just leave the rules as they are, people have spent money on the rules as they are, and they the ones who have raced in the class, why make them spend more or removing parts.........
just get more riders in class .............
and enjoy the eveness of the class

[svracer12]

i agree with you fully john. i have spent alot of time and money to get my pro twin to a compeditive spec and honestly it would cost me thousands in new parts and already purchased parts to convert back to these rules. why should the people that have put in the effort and money be disadvantaged by the people that cant afford it/ cant be arsed? the rules as they are now are fine and a well riden pro twin can be very effective even if it isn't high spec (william montgomery did a 1.42 round ruapuna on an er6 thats only performance mod was a second hand ohlins rear shock). pro twins is a very cheap class to race, people just need to stop worrying about "whos got what" and just ride the wheels off them.

[koba]

People just need to stop worrying about "whos got what" and just ride the wheels off them.


Well said!
This applies to all classes!

[FROSTY]

i agree with you fully john. i have spent alot of time and money to get my pro twin to a compeditive spec and honestly it would cost me thousands in new parts and already purchased parts to convert back to these rules. why should the people that have put in the effort and money be disadvantaged by the people that cant afford it/ cant be arsed? the rules as they are now are fine and a well riden pro twin can be very effective even if it isn't high spec (william montgomery did a 1.42 round ruapuna on an er6 thats only performance mod was a second hand ohlins rear shock). pro twins is a very cheap class to race, people just need to stop worrying about "whos got what" and just ride the wheels off them.
i hear what you are saying. Perhaps you are 100% right but then again what if the reason people HAVENT built PT bikes is because there is too much expense to build em. Then again maybee its just general apathy. I dunno.

[Dom]

i hear what you are saying. Perhaps you are 100% right but then again what if the reason people HAVENT built PT bikes is because there is too much expense to build em. Then again maybee its just general apathy. I dunno.

Sadly racing is always going to be expensive, thats just the way it is. svracer12 was just stating that you can still go really fast without having to build the PT bikes up heaps like Will Montgomery has proven. Some of the fastest PT riders in the country spend alot of their cash(and cash they don't have) doing this and I don't see them asking to get the rules changed to make it cheaper. They are the ones doing it.

[GSVR]

Sadly racing is always going to be expensive, thats just the way it is. svracer12 was just stating that you can still go really fast without having to build the PT bikes up heaps like Will Montgomery has proven. Some of the fastest PT riders in the country spend alot of their cash(and cash they don't have) doing this and I don't see them asking to get the rules changed to make it cheaper. They are the ones doing it.

So Dom what I can't help but notice is very few of the local ProTwin spec bikes entered the national round at their home track. Why do you think this is?

How about down south what percentage of the total number of ProTwin bikes entered the national round at their home track?

[svracer12]

i hear what you are saying. Perhaps you are 100% right but then again what if the reason people HAVENT built PT bikes is because there is too much expense to build em. Then again maybee its just general apathy. I dunno.

I understand what you mean, but people have to know that it is possible to a compeditive national level bike for not alot of money (in the whole scheme of things). my total build cost was:
bike $2000 (written off 2007 sv)
rear shock $500
full yoshi pipe $1600
bodywork $500
front fork internals, rearsets, clipons, crash protection and front sub frame where all home made with some good old fashioned nz diy.
total cost <$5000
so it is possible. this bike won the nz gp at ruapuna with a fastest time of 1.39.6 so it is compeditive against pro twins that have had alot of money thrown at them. this class isnt like f3, the people with the money have a 1 hp advantage not a 10 hp advantage so don't get disheartened by it.

[FROSTY]

Sadly racing is always going to be expensive, thats just the way it is. svracer12 was just stating that you can still go really fast without having to build the PT bikes up heaps like Will Montgomery has proven. Some of the fastest PT riders in the country spend alot of their cash(and cash they don't have) doing this and I don't see them asking to get the rules changed to make it cheaper. They are the ones doing it.
I think that indeed proves a point. Will proved in my opinion EXACTLY that pro twins bikes can be raced without all the money spent.
so why not have ONE class with the money that can be spent severely restriced.

[FROSTY]

I understand what you mean, but people have to know that it is possible to a compeditive national level bike for not alot of money (in the whole scheme of things). my total build cost was:
bike $2000 (written off 2007 sv)
rear shock $500
full yoshi pipe $1600
bodywork $500
front fork internals, rearsets, clipons, crash protection and front sub frame where all home made with some good old fashioned nz diy.
total cost <$5000
so it is possible. this bike won the nz gp at ruapuna with a fastest time of 1.39.6 so it is compeditive against pro twins that have had alot of money thrown at them. this class isnt like f3, the people with the money have a 1 hp advantage not a 10 hp advantage so don't get disheartened by it.
Thanks dude--Im not looking to piss off you guys guys that have gone to the trouble of building and racing existing PT's
Sorry to correct you but The M4 system on my F3 bike was (with jetting) alone worth 4 hp confirmed
-From what you've just posted though it looks like your bike would pretty easilly be converted to the rules proposed

[Dom]

So Dom what I can't help but notice is very few of the local ProTwin spec bikes entered the national round at their home track. Why do you think this is?

How about down south what percentage of the total number of ProTwin bikes entered the national round at their home track?

Yea, pro twin fields at club meetings are awesome and then it seemed only 25% turned up to Nats. I can't see what it has to do with the bike because alot of the bikes at club level are more spec d than some at Nats. Guess only the people that didn't enter Nats can answer that.

[HenryDorsetCase]

Ive thought about this a bit. I used to own an SV650 as a street bike (this was before I started being the slowest, oldest guy at any given trackday on my VFR400).

The things an SV NEEDS more than anything are good tyres, fork rebuild, and a decent shock. $3k give or take.

If you cut the pipe or muffler off (and it does have to be cut) then logically you need to remap the airflow i.e. power commander. since the first time you deck it you will lunch the muffler (its BIG) then you kind of have to budget that as well. say another grand?


Last winter i was seeing well set up PT SV's for around the ten k mark: often they had rego on hold and street bits as well which means it could be put back on the road and recoup some investment that way.

I guess my point is that the current rules allow someone to spend as much as they like, but everybody has to spend something.

[svr]

I understand what you mean, but people have to know that it is possible to a compeditive national level bike for not alot of money (in the whole scheme of things). my total build cost was:
bike $2000 (written off 2007 sv)
rear shock $500
full yoshi pipe $1600
bodywork $500
front fork internals, rearsets, clipons, crash protection and front sub frame where all home made with some good old fashioned nz diy.
total cost <$5000
so it is possible. this bike won the nz gp at ruapuna with a fastest time of 1.39.6 so it is compeditive against pro twins that have had alot of money thrown at them. this class isnt like f3, the people with the money have a 1 hp advantage not a 10 hp advantage so don't get disheartened by it.

Congrats!
But say Sam's bike is 1 sec. better than yours (Terry Fitz told me there's a second in a TTX36 shock by itself) - to win the championship over the season you would have had to consistently out-ride Sam Love, and by a decent margin.
It comes back to this: Performance wise, if you're allowed to do it, you have to.

[Robert Taylor]

Congrats!
But say Sam's bike is 1 sec. better than yours (Terry Fitz told me there's a second in a TTX36 shock by itself) - to win the championship over the season you would have had to consistently out-ride Sam Love, and by a decent margin.
It comes back to this: Performance wise, if you're allowed to do it, you have to.

Sam Love, second hand TTX36. Yes thats possible as well.

[FROSTY]

Congrats!
But say Sam's bike is 1 sec. better than yours (Terry Fitz told me there's a second in a TTX36 shock by itself) - to win the championship over the season you would have had to consistently out-ride Sam Love, and by a decent margin.
It comes back to this: Performance wise, if you're allowed to do it, you have to.
I think you 1000% hit the nail on the head.

[oyster]

What a load of rubbish. You do the best with what you have, what you can afford. I had two boys in this championship, if it were a prerequisite that they had top spec bikes , we wouldn't have got to the grid. Both had "B" grade bikes we could afford and the results are measured in how much they enjoyed it and developed as riders.
People need to be reminded of this principle

[codgyoleracer]

The best prepped PT bike in the country ridden by the best PT rider over the national series won the day. Not to hard to work out why that hapened !
IMO there was an argument to discuss the rules when they were originally mooted , but its a little late now and we need to support the class wherever possible from club level right through. Refinement of the rules of course "here & there" is always on the cards, - and isolating and raising key issues may be beneficial. (or not)
The real difference in cost is the level that some compeitors are willing to go to for the detailed preperation of both man and machine. Both of these things takes up a lot of time, effort and money ! , especially if you are an up and coming rider learning your trade.
Cheers all GlenW

[Shaun]

[QUOTE=codgyoleracer;1987961]The best prepped PT bike in the country ridden by the best PT rider over the national series won the day. Not to hard to work out why that hapened !



AGREED


Not to mention the great job he did with the pit presentation for his sponsors as well

[GSVR]

What a load of rubbish. You do the best with what you have, what you can afford. I had two boys in this championship, if it were a prerequisite that they had top spec bikes , we wouldn't have got to the grid. Both had "B" grade bikes we could afford and the results are measured in how much they enjoyed it and developed as riders.
People need to be reminded of this principle

Thanks for that information.Here was me thinking they where on very well prepared bikes and just weren't very good riders.

So if they where riding Sam Loves bike do you think they would have gone any faster? Do you think they may have even had a crack at the championship or where they just along for the ride?

Sorry if this is perceived as a wind up ...

[Shaun]

Thatnks for that information.Here was me thinking they where on very well prepared bikes and just weren't very good riders.

So if they where riding Sam Loves bike do you think they would have gone any faster?




I think Patrick could have gone faster on Sams bike than on his own one, but rode his own CHEAP one ( Built from a wreck) very very well:eek:

But DO NOT think Patrick is ready to be faster tham Sam love just yet!

[GSVR]

I think Patrick could have gone faster on Sams bike than on his own one, but rode his own CHEAP one ( Built from a wreck) very very well:eek:

But DO NOT think Patrick is ready to be faster tham Sam love just yet!


Its a subject I think every rider considers as we all want to be a fast as we can.

At the end of the day you think can I afford to do anything to my bike to make me faster or am I just not riding hard enough. Then theres a bit of a calculation if you percieve your bike to be a bit slow that if you where on the guys bike that finished in front of you would you have been able to beat him. All very subjective and hard to quantify unless all the bikes or riders are considered to be of equal ability or performance.

[Robert Taylor]

What a load of rubbish. You do the best with what you have, what you can afford. I had two boys in this championship, if it were a prerequisite that they had top spec bikes , we wouldn't have got to the grid. Both had "B" grade bikes we could afford and the results are measured in how much they enjoyed it and developed as riders.
People need to be reminded of this principle

110% CORRECT. So nice to hear that not everyone subscribes to the ''politics of envy'' and that you just uncomplainingly get on with what you have.
It wouldnt matter where the goalposts were reset to, there would still be people whinging.

[t3mp0r4ry nzr]

all great points. Personally I think the class is still relatively cheap. Once the bikes are built they have straight forward maintanance schedules and are easy on tyres, also with good resale value.

[svr]

110% CORRECT. So nice to hear that not everyone subscribes to the ''politics of envy'' and that you just uncomplainingly get on with what you have.
It wouldnt matter where the goalposts were reset to, there would still be people whinging.

Now I'm confused - I thought that anyone riding an underspecced `cheap' bike was simply sympomatic of the overwhelming Kiwi predisposition to settle for mediocracy?

[GSVR]

Now I'm confused - I thought that anyone riding an underspecced `cheap' bike was simply sympomatic of the overwhelming Kiwi predisposition to settle for mediocracy?

And I thought the 'Politics of Envy" was about streetstock riders and the fact they can just race without all the hassles of having the correct gizmos fitted.

[Robert Taylor]

Now I'm confused - I thought that anyone riding an underspecced `cheap' bike was simply sympomatic of the overwhelming Kiwi predisposition to settle for mediocracy?

Thats easy, the country at large got rid of the ''Mother of Mediocrity'' last November. No longer do those that aspire to greater things have to be penalised.

[Robert Taylor]

And I thought the 'Politics of Envy" was about streetstock riders and the fact they can just race without all the hassles of having the correct gizmos fitted.

Well theres your calling then so you can stop grizzling.

[GSVR]

Well theres your calling then so you can stop grizzling.

Its actually the final frontier for CKTechnical and Ohlins as its the only market you haven't cracked. You'll have to talk some sense into those MNZ officials that don't know anything about suspension.

[oyster]

A year or two back we conducted a thorough review of the RG 150 to ensure it was safe and suitable for our purpose of introducing and developing young riders. Part of that involved looking at suspension and most critically, it's effect on safety. Robert dyno tested a rear shock, and it came at spot on for our general "one size fit's all" purpose. We also discussed the front end and again, all was fine but with a spec type and volume of fluid which we faithfully use.
Johnny Hepburn (then MNZ) helped out at the track too, "reading" tyre wear etc.
Do you remember helping us with that Rob?

[Robert Taylor]

A year or two back we conducted a thorough review of the RG 150 to ensure it was safe and suitable for our purpose of introducing and developing young riders. Part of that involved looking at suspension and most critically, it's effect on safety. Robert dyno tested a rear shock, and it came at spot on for our general "one size fit's all" purpose. We also discussed the front end and again, all was fine but with a spec type and volume of fluid which we faithfully use.
Johnny Hepburn (then MNZ) helped out at the track too, "reading" tyre wear etc.
Do you remember helping us with that Rob?

Yes I do it was interesting and thankyou for taking the wind out of GSVRs sails!

[GSVR]

A year or two back we conducted a thorough review of the RG 150 to ensure it was safe and suitable for our purpose of introducing and developing young riders. Part of that involved looking at suspension and most critically, it's effect on safety. Robert dyno tested a rear shock, and it came at spot on for our general "one size fit's all" purpose. We also discussed the front end and again, all was fine but with a spec type and volume of fluid which we faithfully use.
Johnny Hepburn (then MNZ) helped out at the track too, "reading" tyre wear etc.
Do you remember helping us with that Rob?

Thanks for that information and Robert for his confirmation.

"one size fits all" is an interesting concept. Sadly it must only work on RG150s.

[cowpoos]

"one size fits all" is an interesting concept. Sadly it must only work on RG150s.
Gary...stop taking comments out of context.

Frosty...stop trying to reinvent the wheel...get a bke and get on with it...2 or 3 horsepower or 10 for that matter isn't your limiting factor on the track...listening to advice people give you and being objective of your own riding would be much more important!!

[FROSTY]

Whose grizzling? Open an honest discussion.
But interesting is that 2 current PT riders would convert back and 8 guys currently not riding or at least not a PT bike would build one.
Poos you know full well I cannot race currently. What I can do is look for a class I believe in to get behind and support.

[Robert Taylor]

Gary...stop taking comments out of context.

Frosty...stop trying to reinvent the wheel...get a bke and get on with it...2 or 3 horsepower or 10 for that matter isn't your limiting factor on the track...listening to advice people give you and being objective of your own riding would be much more important!!

Of course at no time did anyone brutally suggest ''one size fits all''. Its really just an interpretation to either suit ones vanity or an attempt at accruing ''points''. ( GSVRs )Given that these are low powered machines they will not challenge the frame, suspension and tyres in the infinitely greater way that higher powered machines will. And with few exceptions the rider weights wont be challenging.
Gary, your nit picking is ( frankly ) pathetic. So many words, so little that makes sense.
We did a job to clarify whether a nominated replacement shock ( and no not one of mine ) was suitable, without prejudice. End of story.

[Robert Taylor]

Whose grizzling? Open an honest discussion.
But interesting is that 2 current PT riders would convert back and 8 guys currently not riding or at least not a PT bike would build one.
Poos you know full well I cannot race currently. What I can do is look for a class I believe in to get behind and support.

Across the relatively small sampling ( and who are they all? ) its hardly a landslide consensus though Frosty. The bones of the class are sound.

[cowpoos]

Poos you know full well I cannot race currently. What I can do is look for a class I believe in to get behind and support.


Nope...didn't have a clue!!

[svracer12]

But interesting is that 2 current PT riders would convert back and 8 guys currently not riding or at least not a PT bike would build one.
.

yes but 6 said no and 4 said they wouldn't convert. i bet the 2 that said they would probably have bikes that are only set up to the specs in the new rules and don't want to do the rest of the work required. have you thought about the fact that pro twins are running mid to back of the field in f3 and these rules may turn us all into dangerous mobile chicanes for the fast guys.

[FROSTY]

mid to back of the feild? Mobille chicanes?-- I must be seeing different lap times to you then.Im seeing PT guys pretty darn close to the front of F3 class.
And just how much slower do you think a PT bike would be in standard trim?
Given that one KBer on a SV ran consistanlty in the F3 top 10 at national level on a factory engine with good suspenders under him.

[Deano]

All I would need to do is pull the PC off, which gave no more HP anyway, just smoothed out a flat spot. Frosty's rules would only save me a further $500 as I wouldn't be getting the cams dialled in. I'm not too bothered either way really.



yes but 6 said no and 4 said they wouldn't convert. i bet the 2 that said they would probably have bikes that are only set up to the specs in the new rules and don't want to do the rest of the work required. have you thought about the fact that pro twins are running mid to back of the field in f3 and these rules may turn us all into dangerous mobile chicanes for the fast guys.


At VMCC last year, 4 out of top 5 were pro twin bikes, behind GW.

3 pro twins finished top 10 at Paeroa. (3rd, 6th and 7th)

[GSVR]

A year or two back we conducted a thorough review of the RG 150 to ensure it was safe and suitable for our purpose of introducing and developing young riders. Part of that involved looking at suspension and most critically, it's effect on safety. Robert dyno tested a rear shock, and it came at spot on for our general "one size fit's all" purpose. We also discussed the front end and again, all was fine but with a spec type and volume of fluid which we faithfully use.
Johnny Hepburn (then MNZ) helped out at the track too, "reading" tyre wear etc.
Do you remember helping us with that Rob?


Of course at no time did anyone brutally suggest ''one size fits all''. Its really just an interpretation to either suit ones vanity or an attempt at accruing ''points''. ( GSVRs )Given that these are low powered machines they will not challenge the frame, suspension and tyres in the infinitely greater way that higher powered machines will. And with few exceptions the rider weights wont be challenging.
Gary, your nit picking is ( frankly ) pathetic. So many words, so little that makes sense.
We did a job to clarify whether a nominated replacement shock ( and no not one of mine ) was suitable, without prejudice. End of story.

So how did the SV650 standard shock shape up on the "dyno" assuming of course you knew what you where looking for. Also who performed any real world tests on tyre wear etc.

Politics of Deception. Just like the controlling costs thread me thinks...

I agree the bones of the class are sound but it could have been alot more accessable if the costs of setting up a competitive bike where reduced.

Only way to prove the point I'm making about tyre wear on the SV650 is to grab two bikes one with good aftermarket suspension and one standard and fit the same tyres/pressure etc and do a full days hard riding on them swapping the riders around each session.

[Robert Taylor]

So how did the SV650 standard shock shape up on the "dyno" assuming of course you knew what you where looking for. Also who performed any real world tests on tyre wear etc.

Politics of Deception. Just like the controlling costs thread me thinks...

I agree the bones of the class are sound but it could have been alot more accessable if the costs of setting up a competitive bike where reduced.

Only way to prove the point I'm making about tyre wear on the SV650 is to grab two bikes one with good aftermarket suspension and one standard and fit the same tyres/pressure etc and do a full days hard riding on them swapping the riders around each session.

Give it a rest for gods sake. Youre like a stuck record playing like one of those annoying TV ads.

The FACT is SV650s are commuter bikes and were never intended for racing and that is why in standard form on the racetrack they are a wobbly jelly, especially from the front end. Even the aftermarket shocks out of the box ( such as my beloved Swedish product ) are valved and sprung for commuter use. Also certain componentry in the engines fails with some regularity when you extract high HP numbers. Just ask Glen and Terry...

Politics of deception.....well that proved a point loud and clear. A whole load of people visted Sams pit that hadnt done so the whole season and we had a few questions from an MNZ official. It was an even ''better'' result considering Sam won the weekend. But the improvement actually came from the other end of the bike. Had the electronics been hooked up ( very possible ) it would have been totally legal because no telemetry was involved. Those that felt most threatened by our elaborate deception certainly didnt enjoy the possibility of the goalposts being moved. How dare engineers keep building better mousetraps!!!

If you were doing tyre testing stock against aftermarket the bike fitted with the good suspension would have to lap as slow as that with oem for it to be a semi conclusive test. But hey make a further twist on words if you so wish.

Buckets.....

[GSVR]

If you were doing tyre testing stock against aftermarket the bike fitted with the good suspension would have to lap as slow as that with oem for it to be a semi conclusive test. But hey make a further twist on words if you so wish.


I and here was me thinking you where a clever guy.

Please explain the logic behind the above statement. If both bikes are ridden as hard as they can and the tyre wear checked against each other this would provide a much closer result of how they would perform against each other (re tyre wear) during a race meeting.

Or are you saying the only advantage the bike with good suspension would have is faster laptimes?

Thanks for the other comments too. Had a bit of a laugh.

[Robert Taylor]

I and here was me thinking you where a clever guy.

Please explain the logic behind the above statement. If both bikes are ridden as hard as they can and the tyre wear checked against each other this would provide a much closer result of how they would perform against each other (re tyre wear) during a race meeting.

Or are you saying the only advantage the bike with good suspension would have is faster laptimes?

Thanks for the other comments too. Had a bit of a laugh.

Twist twist twist ad infinitum
Go away and actually think about it, if you cannot work it out then Im not wasting my time further.
You are in a deep hole so why on earth do you keep digging...................

[GSVR]

The FACT is SV650s are commuter bikes and were never intended for racing and that is why in standard form on the racetrack they are a wobbly jelly, especially from the front end. Even the aftermarket shocks out of the box ( such as my beloved Swedish product ) are valved and sprung for commuter use. Also certain componentry in the engines fails with some regularity when you extract high HP numbers. Just ask Glen and Terry...


The FACT is Glen and Terry dont race Protwin bikes and the SV650 engine has proven itself to be very well made and reliable when left in standard spec.

All engines fail when you take them too far past the manufacters spec in the quest for more power..

[GSVR]

Twist twist twist ad infinitum
Go away and actually think about it, if you cannot work it out then Im not wasting my time further.
You are in a deep hole so why on earth do you keep digging...................

Anyone that doesn't agree with Robert Taylor must be wrong....

[Robert Taylor]

Anyone that doesn't agree with Robert Taylor must be wrong....

Its well known that when people are boxed into a corner with a failing argument they then resort to stupid worn out cliches that you have just quoted. Give up before theres more egg on your face.
Where I have been wrong Ive apologised, fact.

[Robert Taylor]

The FACT is Glen and Terry dont race Protwin bikes and the SV650 engine has proven itself to be very well made and reliable when left in standard spec.

All engines fail when you take them too far past the manufacters spec in the quest for more power..

Yes and yes

[GSVR]

Twist twist twist ad infinitum
Go away and actually think about it, if you cannot work it out then Im not wasting my time further.
You are in a deep hole so why on earth do you keep digging...................


Its well known that when people are boxed into a corner with a failing argument they then resort to stupid worn out cliches that you have just quoted. Give up before theres more egg on your face.
Where I have been wrong Ive apologised, fact.

No comment required here just read back over the thread people!

[Shaun]

Its well known that when people are boxed into a corner with a failing argument they then resort to stupid worn out cliches that you have just quoted. Give up before theres more egg on your face.
Where I have been wrong Ive apologised, fact.




No they don't wanker:Offtopic: O- and I heard you do that once:done:




PS MODS, Robert Knows I am joking

[Rcktfsh]

I and here was me thinking you where a clever guy.

Please explain the logic behind the above statement. If both bikes are ridden as hard as they can and the tyre wear checked against each other this would provide a much closer result of how they would perform against each other (re tyre wear) during a race meeting.

Or are you saying the only advantage the bike with good suspension would have is faster laptimes?

Thanks for the other comments too. Had a bit of a laugh.

What part of this are you struggling to understand GSVR, to measure the difference in tyre wear between stock /aftermarket you need a baseline, assuming lap times are quicker with the aftermarket suspension (hardly a huge leap of faith) that would mean lapping at the stock suspension speed to measure realitive tyre wear, hardly rocket science.

[GSVR]

What part of this are you struggling to understand GSVR, to measure the difference in tyre wear between stock /aftermarket you need a baseline, assuming lap times are quicker with the aftermarket suspension (hardly a huge leap of faith) that would mean lapping at the stock suspension speed to measure realitive tyre wear, hardly rocket science.

Wrong. Both bikes just have to complete the same amount of laps at their respective race pace.

Are you saying to measure the tyrewear on a Superbike vs Supersport over a 6 lap race you would have the Superbike lap at the same speed as the supersport. Come on get serious.

[Dom]

Wrong. Both bikes just have to complete the same amount of laps at their respective race pace.

That means there could be no accurate comparison because you have just changed more than one variable.

[Tony.OK]

Wrong. Both bikes just have to complete the same amount of laps at their respective race pace.

Are you saying to measure the tyrewear on a Superbike vs Supersport over a 6 lap race you would have the Superbike lap at the same speed as the supersport. Come on get serious.

Having two bikes doing different things is like comparing apples with peaches.

If one bike is going faster then the tyres are having to work harder, theres a huge difference in forces when taking different speeds into account.
The only way to have a controlled experiment is to have both bikes doing exactly the same thing, and only changing the suspension. The stock bike being the control and the Ohlins equipped bike being the test. Then the only checking to do is with tyre wear for any given amount of laps.

[GSVR]

That means there could be no accurate comparison because you have just changed more than one variable.

Make it real simple Dom. When people talk about tyrewear they measure it in how far they can travel not how fast they get there!

In the case of Protwin if everyone is going slower to complete the race distance then so be it. The reduced tyrewear may be because they are going slower.

I didn't think the class was about making the fastest SV650 possible!

[GSVR]

Having two bikes doing different things is like comparing apples with peaches.

If one bike is going faster then the tyres are having to work harder, theres a huge difference in forces when taking different speeds into account.
The only way to have a controlled experiment is to have both bikes doing exactly the same thing, and only changing the suspension. The stock bike being the control and the Ohlins equipped bike being the test. Then the only checking to do is with tyre wear for any given amount of laps.

Both bikes are doing exactly the same thing completing the same distance as fast as they are capable.

Yeah one gets there alot faster but eats tyres!

[Shaun]

Make it real simple Dom. When people talk about tyrewear they measure it in how far they can travel not how fast they get there!

In the case of Protwin if everyone is going slower to complete the race distance then so be it. The reduced tyrewear may be because they are going slower.

I didn't think the class was about making the fastest SV650 possible!




Try www.dictionary.com if you are having problems with english dude:headbang:

[Shaun]

Both bikes are doing exactly the same thing completing the same distance as fast as they are capable.

Yeah one gets there alot faster but eats tyres!


Yes it does, due to the after market suspension allowing it to be ridden faster.

But if you do want a TRUE tyre test, the bike/s must do the same amount of laps at the same pace to make the test real

[Tony.OK]

Both bikes are doing exactly the same thing completing the same distance as fast as they are capable.

Yeah one gets there alot faster but eats tyres!

That would make it a suspension test rather than a tyre wear test though.

[Shaun]

That would make it a suspension test rather than a tyre wear test though.


I see you have used the Dictionary Tony

[Tony.OK]

I see you have used the Dictionary Tony

Hahaa for years I've been reading it upside down.................one day someone turned it over and now life makes much more sence:doh:

Ok i'm :Offtopic:

Back to regular programming:niceone:

[Robert Taylor]

Give up guys this guy cant tell when he is wrong, even though your arguments are on the money.
As best I can recall most racers want to go faster.
Shaun, if I was blessed with maori blood you could call me a Whanker!!!!

[Shaun]

Shaun, if I was blessed with maori blood you could call me a Whanker!!!!



Bugger that, you would just end up with a special grant to make your buisness bigger and pay less tax:sunny:

[GSVR]

Give up guys this guy cant tell when he is wrong, even though your arguments are on the money.
As best I can recall most racers want to go faster.
Shaun, if I was blessed with maori blood you could call me a Whanker!!!!

Easy to go faster in Protwin yeah just fit better suspension. It will save on tyrewear too! Or possibly even tire wear, tyre-wear, or even tyre whare.

Thanks Sean you going for Hitchers job?

[FROSTY]

Guys Im not looking to start a fight here.
Every suggestion/rule is there in the effort to reduce costs or attract corperate sponsorship.
The reducing of costs thing is self explainatory. EG a full race system is $1400/ a muffler is $250-400 if you choose to replace it.
The corperate sponsorship thing is The tyres. Ie if they use a control tyre then part of that is a cheaper price for tyres.
But also if the bikes look like bikes joe blogs off the street can buy then perhps Suzuki and co might look to sponsor the class.

[Robert Taylor]

Guys Im not looking to start a fight here.
Every suggestion/rule is there in the effort to reduce costs or attract corperate sponsorship.
The reducing of costs thing is self explainatory. EG a full race system is $1400/ a muffler is $250-400 if you choose to replace it.
The corperate sponsorship thing is The tyres. Ie if they use a control tyre then part of that is a cheaper price for tyres.
But also if the bikes look like bikes joe blogs off the street can buy then perhps Suzuki and co might look to sponsor the class.

Exactly! To be frank I dont fancy the chances of sponsorship when retrenchment of existing is happening.

[FROSTY]

Exactly! To be frank I dont fancy the chances of sponsorship when retrenchment of existing is happening.
Robert heres a tricky one for you. the question has 2 parts
1) In YOUR opinion would the "commuter" Ohlins shock you refer to be good enough to improve the handling on a SV to raceable condition.
2) How much would that shock cost in TODAYS money
Ditto the front end
Or in other words in TODAYS financial world How much MINIMUM using your gear to get a SV to what you feel is a safe to race condition. -Based on it being a brand new bike with stock suspenders.

[cowpoos]

Make it real simple Dom. When people talk about tyrewear they measure it in how far they can travel not how fast they get there!

In the case of Protwin if everyone is going slower to complete the race distance then so be it. The reduced tyrewear may be because they are going slower.

I didn't think the class was about making the fastest SV650 possible!
How many Pheasents could a pheasent plucker pluck if a pheasent plucker could pluck pheasents?????

[GSVR]

How many Pheasents could a pheasent plucker pluck if a pheasent plucker could pluck pheasents?????

Try www.dictionary.com if you are having problems with english dude

Pheasants

Too many variables can't figure it out!

[Robert Taylor]

Robert heres a tricky one for you. the question has 2 parts
1) In YOUR opinion would the "commuter" Ohlins shock you refer to be good enough to improve the handling on a SV to raceable condition.
2) How much would that shock cost in TODAYS money
Ditto the front end
Or in other words in TODAYS financial world How much MINIMUM using your gear to get a SV to what you feel is a safe to race condition. -Based on it being a brand new bike with stock suspenders.

1 ) No, but then every shock we send out is individualised to the customer and application, at no extra cost

2) Thats between me and the customer, there are many parasites who frequent forums and we are into quality, not a price war. ( we dont subscribe to redshed mentality and the quality issues such mentality creates )

3) Absolutely do the forks first with suitable springs and emulators, and I mean brass emulators that dont flog out and with proper rate pop off springs and low speed bypass.
Rear shock that is longer so it changes the trail figure so the bike will steer half properly and place more weight onto the front. Properly arranged fade free damping that actually delivers dynamic ride height / squat control.

But hey this is all ground that has been covered before for Pro Twins and its a done deal. The world financial crisis should not in itself be justification to lower the ( effective ) safety standards of race classes

[Robert Taylor]

How many Pheasents could a pheasent plucker pluck if a pheasent plucker could pluck pheasents?????

I knew what you meant............eight peasant pheasant pluckers pleasantly plucking pheasants.

[t3mp0r4ry nzr]

:argue:.........:yawn:

[FROSTY]

GOSH DARN IT Robert Stop talking in riddles.
It isn't about Red shed mentality its about ok a safe suspension package could be built for X$
Realisticly from what I can tell a reasonable Penske ,WP or Ohlins should be about the same cost to a customer.

[GSVR]

GOSH DARN IT Robert Stop talking in riddles.
It isn't about Red shed mentality its about ok a safe suspension package could be built for X$
Realisticly from what I can tell a reasonable Penske ,WP or Ohlins should be about the same cost to a customer.

In all fairest to Robert Frosty I think it was you who posted on here that the Standard SV650 suspension was unsafe ! But I noted that no club has banned anyone that turns up and races a standard bike yet!

As far as the cost of getting a championship winning bike goes Sam has made no secret about what work he does and money he has spent and neither would Geoff Booth.

Next year the TTX36 will probably be dominant like it is now but I don't think the serious guys will still be using the racetech emulators as better stuff is in the pipework.

[svr]

In all fairest to Robert Frosty I think it was you who posted on here that the Standard SV650 suspension was unsafe ! But I noted that no club has banned anyone that turns up and races a standard bike yet!


Now that suspension, brakes, chassis etc are better racers crash as much as ever. Actually the crashes are worse than ever due to higher corner speeds.
600 production bikes of 20 yrs ago didn't crash as badly or as often as modern 600ss, (as far as I can remember...)
Not saying old rubbish is preferable, just trying to demonstrate a logical point that justifying expensive modifications on the grounds of `safety' is a weak position.

[codgyoleracer]

Part Quote from SVR: "Not saying old rubbish is preferable, just trying to demonstrate a logical point that justifying expensive modifications on the grounds of `safety' is a weak position"


I tend to agree

[Robert Taylor]

In all fairest to Robert Frosty I think it was you who posted on here that the Standard SV650 suspension was unsafe ! But I noted that no club has banned anyone that turns up and races a standard bike yet!

As far as the cost of getting a championship winning bike goes Sam has made no secret about what work he does and money he has spent and neither would Geoff Booth.

Next year the TTX36 will probably be dominant like it is now but I don't think the serious guys will still be using the racetech emulators as better stuff is in the pipework.

The rules are very clear that emulators are allowed and nothing such as cartridges are allowed. Unless you have an inside running with MNZ to change the rules your statement has no basis in fact. If you are referring to the cheap copies I can cite very serious shortcomings, we have analysed these with a very open mind and the action and longevity is less than impressive. We had a guy on the Race Tech course last year who having the cheek of the devil told Paul Thede directly he had bought a set and wasnt happy with how they worked, and how do I get them to work? Paul answered with the contempt it deserved. If there are other products in the pipework they will have to be okayed by MNZ first.

A word about Sam, we sold him a TTX36 we traded and re-spec'd to suit SV650, the end price was well under standard new price. Furthermore we traded his ''standard'' Ohlins shock . Thats ''rampant capitalism'' actually helping people! On that front better stuff is always in the pipeline.

[Robert Taylor]

Part Quote from SVR: "Not saying old rubbish is preferable, just trying to demonstrate a logical point that justifying expensive modifications on the grounds of `safety' is a weak position"


I tend to agree

Ok, lets say somehow the stock shock was able to be modied to work as well as your TTX in terms of laptimes. It would undoubtedly fade within a handful of laps and turn to jelly, greatly increasing the chance of crashing. Its also about stability of performance. I will answer SVRs take on this subject tonight because apples arent being always compared with apples and people have to move with the times.

[Shaun]

Ok, lets say somehow the stock shock was able to be modied to work as well as your TTX in terms of laptimes. It would undoubtedly fade within a handful of laps and turn to jelly, greatly increasing the chance of crashing. Its also about stability of performance. I will answer SVRs take on this subject tonight because apples arent being always compared with apples and people have to move with the times.



Are we all going to have to book 8 hours to read your reply Rob

[svr]

Are we all going to have to book 8 hours to read your reply Rob

Although generally over the word limit, I'm generally impressed with the sheer quality of RT's homework, particularly how he manages to elevate `mere' suspension discussions to new discursive levels, partly by bringing multidisciplinary evidence from hitherto unrelated fields including (but not limited to) Political Economy, Philosophy and Anthropology. Taken as a whole RT's Kiwi Biker `Magnum Opus' to date parrallels that of several formidable 17-19thC theologans who doggedly defended the (irrational) belief in God by producing the most beautiful and extensive tomes of Reason yet written!
Given that RT perhaps has a similar scale battle with this matter I look forward to reading another chapter of intellectual gymnastics tomorrow! :niceone:

[Robert Taylor]

Are we all going to have to book 8 hours to read your reply Rob

No, slightly shorter than ''War and Peace'' !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[cowpoos]

No, slightly shorter than ''War and Peace'' !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Do you listen to Leighton Smith on Newstalk ZB ???

[Robert Taylor]

GOSH DARN IT Robert Stop talking in riddles.
It isn't about Red shed mentality its about ok a safe suspension package could be built for X$
Realisticly from what I can tell a reasonable Penske ,WP or Ohlins should be about the same cost to a customer.

Frosty, no intention to talk in riddles as such. We do come across ''redshed mentality'' on a frequent basis, ''The Warehouse has created many negatives and one perception is that quality and performance can be purchased at very low prices. That would be wonderful but for the most part it is simply not true.
In answer to the ( in fact ) small number of site ''bleaters'' ( sorry couldnt think of a less abrasive word ) its fair to clarify that the SV650 and ER6 etc are a whole lot less stable than they should be because they pitch forward violently in the front end under hard braking. On race tracks that is generally known to happen a few times every lap. The front end is always the first thing that should be modified on such bikes. If you do nothing else do the front end!!!
When I enquired to Ohlins sometime ago if they had a spec for the SV650 shocks for racing Anders Andersson replied to me ''they are commuter bikes'' Painfully true. As I have mentioned in other threads / posts the shock needs to be longer to afford more ground clearance, swingarm anti squat angle and to head towards a slightly better trail figure in front etc. If you want to go faster and with a lot more composure you have to fit a better shock. Irrefutable fact. To that end I must thank Glen Williams ( yes I know GSVR that he races in F3 ) for initially pushing the envelope further by requesting that we custom build a TTX36. Glen you are a dirty filthy capitalist!!!!!! But then by implication so are around another 8 or more riders that have requested ''Glen Williams'' replicas.
I imagine that Ohlins / WP / Penske are all similiar in price given comparing apples for apples specification levels. If anything though the US sourced shocks ( Penske ) have risen in price moreso as our dollar has weakened more so against $US than the European currencies. A case in point is that Race Tech are now making shocks, these are low volume production compared to the biggest player ( Ohlins ) so unit component prices and assembly costs are quite high. The shock they build for SV650 at a spec level to compete with TTX36 is around US$1699. Factor in exchange rate freight and gst and you have a shock thats around $4000 !!!!! There are similiar percentage disparities at lower spec levels.
In the end event it is as much about backup, something that seriously has to be accounted for.
I am usually quite guarded because ( for want of a better term ) there are a lot of industry parasites out there...''I can do it cheaper'' the real negative of the free market is that its just too easy for any Joe Bloggs to source product overseas and become an importer. The reality almost always is that they become a jack of all trades and master of none. Low capital base, no proper infrastructure and training, little or no product knowledge. NO BACKUP AND EXCELLENT SERVICE BORNE OF FULL PRODUCT KNOWLEDGE. I apologise to everyone that is doing it properly and those that have the proper investment and full commitment to do so and for the long haul.

[Robert Taylor]

Do you listen to Leighton Smith on Newstalk ZB ???

No but I hear that he is agreeably tory. I do occassionaly watch Parliament TV. New ministers such as Paula Bennett rock!

[Robert Taylor]

Now that suspension, brakes, chassis etc are better racers crash as much as ever. Actually the crashes are worse than ever due to higher corner speeds.
600 production bikes of 20 yrs ago didn't crash as badly or as often as modern 600ss, (as far as I can remember...)
Not saying old rubbish is preferable, just trying to demonstrate a logical point that justifying expensive modifications on the grounds of `safety' is a weak position.

Im a little older than you ( DAMMIT! ) and can remember lots of crashing. The reality is that modern frames and tyres feed a LOT more load into the suspension and its an arguable point that suspension has not kept pace to the same degree.
Why do commuter bikes never intended for the racetrack ( eg SV650, ER6 etc ) come with damper rod forks that is technology that dates back around to approximately the 50s? The answer is simple LOW COST, LOW COST, LOW COST. Put them on the track in standard form and they are a wobbly jelly, even many road riders complain about this issue. That there are some people out there who advocate making no changes to the front defies belief

[Robert Taylor]

Although generally over the word limit, I'm generally impressed with the sheer quality of RT's homework, particularly how he manages to elevate `mere' suspension discussions to new discursive levels, partly by bringing multidisciplinary evidence from hitherto unrelated fields including (but not limited to) Political Economy, Philosophy and Anthropology. Taken as a whole RT's Kiwi Biker `Magnum Opus' to date parrallels that of several formidable 17-19thC theologans who doggedly defended the (irrational) belief in God by producing the most beautiful and extensive tomes of Reason yet written!
Given that RT perhaps has a similar scale battle with this matter I look forward to reading another chapter of intellectual gymnastics tomorrow! :niceone:

Im dissappointed that you didnt mention that in the face of a couple of regular posters with a somewhat argumentative disposition that I usually manage to reply with polite or semi polite restraint... But I am happy to doggedly defend a fully rational belief in conservative politics!
And happy to entertain!

[Robert Taylor]

22 voters thus far, 12 for status quo. This is a small sampling and to that end it would be interesting to know how many ProTwin riders have not frequented this forum. I.e is there a silent majority? I am saying this not to spurn another argument as such, I am saying that this may be the reality, given also that those with the most to say is a very small sampling and some ( including myself ) neither ride or are likely to ride ProTwins.

[Rob Taylor]

What about letting 2 Valve 750s in to pt as well (max 75hp)or is that getting too hard.That would be Ducati for us ;)

[slowpoke]

In answer to the ( in fact ) small number of site ''bleaters'' ( sorry couldnt think of a less abrasive word ) its fair to clarify that the SV650 and ER6 etc are a whole lot less stable than they should be because they pitch forward violently in the front end under hard braking. On race tracks that is generally known to happen a few times every lap. The front end is always the first thing that should be modified on such bikes. If you do nothing else do the front end!!!


Haha, aint' that the truth, Robert. Deano kindly let me pit in his tent at Paeroa and I had to move his PT SV650, jaysus the front end might as well have had a couple of door closers for forks. With just a rear pit stand in place it would make an excellent rocking horse for the kiddies! Deano has got some serious skills getting the speed he does outta that thing.

Thinking about it now it actually felt just like my CBR after I blew a fork seal at Wanganui. It pushed like a mongrel on corner exit, was unstable under brakes and/or over the slightest road irregularity whilst cornering. It's not unrideable but it's fuggin' unpleasant and does nothing for your confidence.

[cowpoos]

No but I hear that he is agreeably tory. I do occassionaly watch Parliament TV. New ministers such as Paula Bennett rock!

Oh dear...you should!!! and even Micheal Laws on radio live as a good second best...

turn the radio to 1053AM or 1278AM in the mornings from 8:30am...makes for great listening til 12pm while you work.

Rememebr how I told you to join this site [something you may regret...but you got hooked] I was right wasn't I??

[slowpoke]

Rememebr how I told you to join this site [something you may regret...but you got hooked] I was right wasn't I??

It's like a crack habit mate, just 'cos you can't stop doesn't mean you are actually enjoying it!

[cowpoos]

It's like a crack habit mate, just 'cos you can't stop doesn't mean you are actually enjoying it!

Oh...sort of like marrage then??? :done:

[Mishy]

But I am happy to doggedly defend a fully rational belief in conservative politics!
And happy to entertain!

Ummm, rational and conservative in the same sentence ? That's a bit like forward thinking and flat earth being used together . . . . . . . . .

[Robert Taylor]

Oh...sort of like marrage then??? :done:

Yeah you can short circuit all the miserable years of marriage....just find a woman you dont like and buy her a house.

The forum can be rewarding but also often ''oh dear'' its that proffessional wind up merchant again, or is he really so impaired, etc

[Robert Taylor]

Ummm, rational and conservative in the same sentence ? That's a bit like forward thinking and flat earth being used together . . . . . . . . .

Yep, even have got friends like you that subscribe to misguided socialism!

[Robert Taylor]

What about letting 2 Valve 750s in to pt as well (max 75hp)or is that getting too hard.That would be Ducati for us ;)

Why not and as we are effectively talking about Bears why have all this talk about extra classes when you could incorporate the elite bears classes into the Nationals?

[Rcktfsh]

But I am happy to doggedly defend a fully rational belief in conservative politics!
And happy to entertain!

and yet (according to documentation signed by none less than helen and proudly displayed on your wall) you have lifetime membership to the labour party comrade?

[GSVR]

If all else fails you could just take the tread off topic in a vain attempt to bury the posts that people that don't live on here might have a chance of reading....

[FROSTY]

---And another sponsor ups and walks out the door.

[GSVR]

The rules are very clear that emulators are allowed and nothing such as cartridges are allowed. Unless you have an inside running with MNZ to change the rules your statement has no basis in fact. If you are referring to the cheap copies I can cite very serious shortcomings, we have analysed these with a very open mind and the action and longevity is less than impressive. We had a guy on the Race Tech course last year who having the cheek of the devil told Paul Thede directly he had bought a set and wasnt happy with how they worked, and how do I get them to work? Paul answered with the contempt it deserved. If there are other products in the pipework they will have to be okayed by MNZ first.

A word about Sam, we sold him a TTX36 we traded and re-spec'd to suit SV650, the end price was well under standard new price. Furthermore we traded his ''standard'' Ohlins shock . Thats ''rampant capitalism'' actually helping people! On that front better stuff is always in the pipeline.

Quote rulebook:

6. Modifications Allowed
a. The front fork inner (slide pipe stanchion) and the outer (outer stanchion) must
remain as per the original manufacturers OEM parts for that homologated model.
Damper Rods, fitment of emulators, springs and valving may be changed for
suspension timing purposes.
Complete cartridge replacement with non-OEM parts is not permitted.
Quality and quantity of oil in forks.
The height and position of the front fork in relation to the top yoke (fork crown) is
free.


Seems there plenty of room to experiment for any budding suspension tech. To my mind the whole emulator thing has created way more problems than it has fixed. People are purchasing bikes with the emulators removed but the fork tubes drilled etc.

Did Oyster get his emulators approved?

You know as well as others the limitations of the Racetech emulators. It was only going to be a matter of time before people started looking for better 'emulator' solutions.

Sam got a good deal on a TTX36 good on him!

[Robert Taylor]

If all else fails you could just take the tread off topic in a vain attempt to bury the posts that people that don't live on here might have a chance of reading....

ON TOPIC. I note that most if not all of the road racers I kick around with have no inclination to Go Slow and Very Readily embrace new settings and techniques to go faster. Or conversely they very much do not subscribe to GoingSlowVeryReadily. (you may abbreviate that to capitals ) If you have sponsors they usually want to see commitment and performance. There are those that contribute something and those that grizzle, I prefer the former category.

[GSVR]

Ok, lets say somehow the stock shock was able to be modied to work as well as your TTX in terms of laptimes. It would undoubtedly fade within a handful of laps and turn to jelly, greatly increasing the chance of crashing. Its also about stability of performance. I will answer SVRs take on this subject tonight because apples arent being always compared with apples and people have to move with the times.

I ask why the stock shock has to produce as good a lap times as the TTX? As long as everyones got the same same shock things will be alot closer.

Conditions change on the track all the time. When it rains more people fall off. Its all about learning to ride to the conditions. If your suspension isn't state of the art you just end up riding it to its limitations like everything else on the bike.

Maybe SVs should get slipper clutches fitted as well! In the interests of safety of course!

[Robert Taylor]

and yet (according to documentation signed by none less than helen and proudly displayed on your wall) you have lifetime membership to the labour party comrade?

OFF TOPIC...after 9 dark years of messing with NZ ''it'' is off to the United Nations where ''it'' can feel comfotable with ''its'' communist friends and spread ''its'' poison further. Good riddance to the ugly bitch! In line with her socialist roots it is to be hoped she has compassion for her fellow man and actually give away some of her fortune, as is readily done by our new Priminister.
Hopefully now I have diverted attention and satisfied petty small mindedness.

[Robert Taylor]

I ask why the stock shock has to produce as good a lap times as the TTX? As long as everyones got the same same shock things will be alot closer.

Conditions change on the track all the time. When it rains more people fall off. Its all about learning to ride to the conditions. If your suspension isn't state of the art you just end up riding it to its limitations like everything else on the bike.

Maybe SVs should get slipper clutches fitted as well! In the interests of safety of course!

Sorry Gary its not worth arguing with you and as ever you just keep digging a bigger hole for yourself. Give it up.l

[GSVR]

ON TOPIC. I note that most if not all of the road racers I kick around with have no inclination to Go Slow and Very Readily embrace new settings and techniques to go faster. Or conversely they very much do not subscribe to GoingSlowVeryReadily. (you may abbreviate that to capitals ) If you have sponsors they usually want to see commitment and performance. There are those that contribute something and those that grizzle, I prefer the former category.

I'm all for classes that go to the best avalaible technology but I'm also aware you need other classes that are accessable to riders that want to compete at a lower level.

I sometimes wonder if some people are in the sport for the love of it or the possiblity of financial return.

[Shaun]

I ask why the stock shock has to produce as good a lap times as the TTX? As long as everyones got the same same shock things will be alot closer.

Conditions change on the track all the time. When it rains more people fall off. Its all about learning to ride to the conditions. If your suspension isn't state of the art you just end up riding it to its limitations like everything else on the bike.

Maybe SVs should get slipper clutches fitted as well! In the interests of safety of course!

Or maybe the ones that have them in there bikes NOW should remove them:girlfight:

[Shaun]

Yep, even have got friends like you that subscribe to misguided socialism!




Go on then, name them:Punk:

[GSVR]

Sorry Gary its not worth arguing with you and as ever you just keep digging a bigger hole for yourself. Give it up.l

OK I will but only on here as its far more effective disscussing this shit at the track to people that are actually affected by it.

[Shaun]

OK I will but only on here as its far more effective disscussing this shit at the track to people that are actually affected by it.


Are you a racer your self or a team helper?

[Robert Taylor]

Go on then, name them:Punk:

On here at quick recollection yourself, Mishy and Rcktfish. All misguided on that score but likable!

[Shaun]

On here at quick recollection yourself, Mishy and Rcktfish. All misguided on that score but likable!



Misguided? Me? why?

[GSVR]

Are you a racer your self or a team helper?

I was a spectator but only really used to go to watch Stroudy race.

[Shaun]

I was a spectator but only really used to go to watch Stroudy race.


Obviously a true race fan then. I as just wondering as I am NOT really sure what it is that you either do, or Do not agree with.

[Ivan]

Ok heres me a budget racer and I have no problems with the current rules so I said no to changing my bike from these rules. I enjoy the fact of learning how to make a "Big" bike go faster in the corners etc so that when I do go up to a 'BIG" bike I will be able to transfer some of my existing knowledge over not learn it when I step up.

The current rules I think are great no need to Dumb the class down us young riders need to learn these bike setup skills at some point

[svr]

OK, put it away chaps.
The discussion was whether or not PTs require expensive modification on the grounds of safety, which really hasn't been answered at all (that was your homework, RT - disappointing)
I've ridden, trackdayed & raced my sv (and won club races) in various states of modification. I also raced it `bog' standard not long after I bought it, and what struck me was how accessible the (admittedly low) limits of the bike were and how `uncrashable' it felt (relatively speaking).
In terms of safety-improving modifications I'd say the following should be allowed:
1. tyres. Actually the standard me-z4's were `safe' at their limit but i won't go there...
2. steering damper - mainly for street circuits and pukekohe, or once the forks are firmed up...
3. Ground clearance improvements (footpegs, muffler, or shorter dog-bones, or longer shock?)
4. Stiffer fork springs with optional oil / levels. The standard forks bottom on the brakes and lock the tyre in a straight line.

That would pretty much do it for me. The standard brakes aren't `dangerous' at all, and the standard shock doesn't wind up and spit you off or anything ridiculous. Andrew Bretherton could ride at consistently `safe' 1.15 m pace at Manfield on a standard sv back in '99 so I don't really see what the big problem is? Someone please enlighten me. I've had three near-highsides on my bike - two were caused by excessive engine braking and one by the rear shock settings (non-standard)
(Nb/ I haven't ridden an er-6 so cannot comment. )

[svr]

The current rules I think are great no need to Dumb the class down us young riders need to learn these bike setup skills at some point

NZs best racers learnt on production bikes where they learnt at a young age how to ride a bike at its limit. They learnt setup later.

[codgyoleracer]

OK, put it away chaps.
The discussion was whether or not PTs require expensive modification on the grounds of safety, which really hasn't been answered at all (that was your homework, RT - disappointing)
I've ridden, trackdayed & raced my sv (and won club races) in various states of modification. I also raced it `bog' standard not long after I bought it, and what struck me was how accessible the (admittedly low) limits of the bike were and how `uncrashable' it felt (relatively speaking).
In terms of safety-improving modifications I'd say the following should be allowed:
1. tyres. Actually the standard me-z4's were `safe' at their limit but i won't go there...
2. steering damper - mainly for street circuits and pukekohe, or once the forks are firmed up...
3. Ground clearance improvements (footpegs, muffler, or shorter dog-bones, or longer shock?)
4. Stiffer fork springs with optional oil / levels. The standard forks bottom on the brakes and lock the tyre in a straight line.

That would pretty much do it for me. The standard brakes aren't `dangerous' at all, and the standard shock doesn't wind up and spit you off or anything ridiculous. Andrew Bretherton could ride at consistently `safe' 1.15 m pace at Manfield on a standard sv back in '99 so I don't really see what the big problem is? Someone please enlighten me. I've had three near-highsides on my bike - two were caused by excessive engine braking and one by the rear shock settings (non-standard)
(Nb/ I haven't ridden an er-6 so cannot comment. )

They missed the boat on creating a "street-stock" type "mid class" like this upon the original concept. (of course this assumes that this is what they (MNZ) wanted in the first place ?). IMO A bike in the above form can be enjoyably raced (albiet at a slower outright pace than a well set up unit with all the good gear). Some of the best/most fun racing i have done has been on buckets - which are gutless poor handling devices at best (mostly , no offence bucket guys !) - however it has indeed been some of the closest & most fun times i have had on a motorbike.
With the adoption of a true treaded road sports tyre (all the major brand make them), this will negate the need for wets, wheels , discs etc etc the costs would / could indeed be reduced substantially. A consideration for no spare bikes & one engine only per race meeting mite also be worth considering "if" a class like this was to be considered.
My gut feeling is that this would indeed get more bums on seats & probably attract the right type of bums also I.E new blood, young blood. Old & experienced campaigners tend to prefer a more up-spec class than this & would tend to stay away - as they do in 150ss.

On the flip side, the current pro-twin class is not excessivly expensive & as the boys down south showed - you can compete on a much lower budget with some ingenuity & riding skills.

It pretty much comes back to "what did the author of the class originally target the Pro-Twins at" - He/she/they , may well be sitting back & thinking they got it bang on correct as it is.

[Rob Taylor]

This thread is not really off topic.The topic is about trying to make a class more affordable.Pt at the moment allows 4 valve 650cc. F3 allows the same & also 2 valve 750.,..so why not allow the 2 valve 750 into pt...Come on guys its all about getting motorcycle racing more affordable for Joe average..Frosty is on the right track...Remember im a sponsor not a rider.The cheaper the class the more bikes we can sponsor,non Jap that is for us !!!!I feel that minor suspension modes must be allowed to make certain bikes safe or at the least make bike A as safe as bike B. Yes its bloody hard to police as is F2 & F3 ,IE performance engine mods....Lets all put our heads together on this rather than knocking heads:hug:

[codgyoleracer]

This thread is not really off topic.The topic is about trying to make a class more affordable.Pt at the moment allows 4 valve 650cc. F3 allows the same & also 2 valve 750.,..so why not allow the 2 valve 750 into pt...Come on guys its all about getting motorcycle racing more affordable for Joe average..Frosty is on the right track...Remember im a sponsor not a rider.The cheaper the class the more bikes we can sponsor,non Jap that is for us !!!!I feel that minor suspension modes must be allowed to make certain bikes safe or at the least make bike A as safe as bike B. Yes its bloody hard to police as is F2 & F3 ,IE performance engine mods....Lets all put our heads together on this rather than knocking heads:hug:

Just put your idea forward to MNZ for consideration at the AGM Rob - thats the way to find out. (although a stock 750ss/696m would likely get spanked).
Glen

[slowpoke]

Just out of curiousity: when was the last time a bike was thoroughly tech inspected via a full or partial strip down?

It seems to me that you could basically do what you like anyway, as long as things looked standard externally and you weren't too stupid about exploiting an advantage........ (rushes off to wash mouth out....)

[FROSTY]

Just put your idea forward to MNZ for consideration at the AGM Rob - thats the way to find out. (although a stock 750ss/696m would likely get spanked).
Glen
heheehe Glen-- power wise yes but the sneaky bugger knows the factory suspenders on the ducks are heaps better than on er/sv/gt650's

Im actually looking at it from the point of view of a potential CLASS sponsor.
I can't take the time out myself to race so I was looking for a class to subsidise.

[FROSTY]

Just out of curiousity: when was the last time a bike was thoroughly tech inspected via a full or partial strip down?

It seems to me that you could basically do what you like anyway, as long as things looked standard externally and you weren't too stupid about exploiting an advantage........ (rushes off to wash mouth out....)
ER actually dude thats one of the points I was making. Limit the HP to 75 to stop hot cams etc. Well actually NO it wont stop em but itll make em pointless.

[svr]

ER actually dude thats one of the points I was making. Limit the HP to 75 to stop hot cams etc. Well actually NO it wont stop em but itll make em pointless.

75 is a big number! If any pt out there was making 75 it should be pulled down fer sure. It wouldn't like pump gas for a start.
70 sounds about right for a good one.

[t3mp0r4ry nzr]

heheehe Glen-- power wise yes but the sneaky bugger knows the factory suspenders on the ducks are heaps better than on er/sv/gt650's

Im actually looking at it from the point of view of a potential CLASS sponsor.
I can't take the time out myself to race so I was looking for a class to subsidise.

With respect FROSTY, how would a change in class rulings impact on your stake as an investor in the class?

[slowpoke]

ER actually dude thats one of the points I was making. Limit the HP to 75 to stop hot cams etc. Well actually NO it wont stop em but itll make em pointless.

As simple as it sounds it's a logistical nightmare:
Do MNZ buy a dyno and have to transport it all over the country? Who pays for it? Who runs it? Is that 75hp at a cold wet Invercargill (sea level) or a hot dry Taupo (altitude)?

Dyno's are notoriously fickle devices and the more dyno's you have involved the more variation you'll get, and the variations aren't small.

Just line 'em up and let 'em get on with it, the cream will still rise to the top.

[Robert Taylor]

I'm all for classes that go to the best avalaible technology but I'm also aware you need other classes that are accessable to riders that want to compete at a lower level.

I sometimes wonder if some people are in the sport for the love of it or the possiblity of financial return.

Yes and we have those classes.

Financial return is a fact of life for any supplier and what you very very conveniently overlook is that many suppliers who are active in the sport provide a LOT of time out of goodwill. If I personally wanted to earn lots of money I certainly wouldnt be doing what I am doing. Therefore I must like what I am doing, certainly I do get satisfaction out of helping people, very often for no return whatsoever.

Your inference was pathetic and had no basis in fact.

[Robert Taylor]

NZs best racers learnt on production bikes where they learnt at a young age how to ride a bike at its limit. They learnt setup later.

Dear god give it a rest, a couple of decades back there wasnt universally s so many external adjustment options nor any real suspension setup infrastructure and overall level of understanding. Now there is and people have moved with the times. So your statement is actually nonsensical. I would also respectfully suggest that there is not as much support as you may think for your views on turning the clock back.
Ive lost count of the number of SV650s we have fitted emulators and springs to for normal road use / occassional track day. The improvement when done properly is substanial, FACT.
As a related subject to the clique who subscribe to the ''cheapest is best mentality'' We further analysed today a set of those nasty Thai emulator rip offs. I wanted to confirm the standard fitted poppett spring rate. When I started compressing it in stages to measure the rate against my load cell the spring didnt return back to its full length and settled at about 60% of that. You may as well give these to your wife for a set of earrings! Further to that it is very easy to see that the service life will be very short. The main spring sits on top of the emulator and rubs against it, constantly. Its not going to take very long before the thin hard coating wears through to parent softer alloy and then the wear rate will accelerate rapidly, dispersing chards of allopy through the forks. Inevitably that gets embedded in the main fork bushings, junking them. Any engineer worth his salt will see this.
The joy that you have in paying a lower price ( for what are pieces of junk ) lasts only a short time and is long outlived by the frustration in realising you have been fitted.

[gav]

I was a spectator but only really used to go to watch Stroudy race.
Was? You know Stroudy has still been racing? Guess you'll be following the V8 Supercars soon then? :msn-wink:

[GSVR]

Yes and we have those classes.

Financial return is a fact of life for any supplier and what you very very conveniently overlook is that many suppliers who are active in the sport provide a LOT of time out of goodwill. If I personally wanted to earn lots of money I certainly wouldnt be doing what I am doing. Therefore I must like what I am doing, certainly I do get satisfaction out of helping people, very often for no return whatsoever.

Your inference was pathetic and had no basis in fact.

You seem aggitated. Are you sure inference was directed at you? What about the tyre guys they keep selling these tyres that only last a few laps?

Suspension is but a small part in the science of speed!

[Robert Taylor]

You seem aggitated. Are you sure inference was directed at you? What about the tyre guys they keep selling these tyres that only last a few laps?

Dont insult my intelligence please, I know exactly what you were up to as does every other sane person reading this thread. Yes I am agitated and Im picking you are getting off on it. PATHETIC.

During the VMCC winter series Dennis and I help a lot of people with suspension set up and advice, anyone who asks and it matters not what suspension is fitted. No charge. It is not an inconsiderable cost for us to attend such meetings and the returns happen if we sell something. SO WHAT THE BLOODY HELL IS WRONG WITH THAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!??????????

If people choose to purchase tyres for max grip that last only a few laps then that is their call. You clearly choose otherwise, that is again your call. if people want to turn up in the latest HSV Commodore wearing designer gear that is again their call, they may just have earned it the hard way.

[brads]

You seem aggitated. Are you sure inference was directed at you? What about the tyre guys they keep selling these tyres that only last a few laps?

Suspension is but a small part in the science of speed!

Please feel free to bugger off anytime you like.

[Deano]

This thread is not really off topic.The topic is about trying to make a class more affordable.Pt at the moment allows 4 valve 650cc. F3 allows the same & also 2 valve 750.,..so why not allow the 2 valve 750 into pt...Come on guys its all about getting motorcycle racing more affordable for Joe average..


How would a Cagiva Raptor go ? Honest question - I know F.A about them.

[GSVR]

How would a Cagiva Raptor go ? Honest question - I know F.A about them.

They would have to be homolagated by MNZ. As long as they don't have any fancy fork internals or other bits. I can't see it being a problem.

[Tony.OK]

Are you a racer your self or a team helper?


I was a spectator but only really used to go to watch Stroudy race.

So as a spectator have you ever been on track pushing as hard as you can to be passed by a better set up bike?
First thing most would do is go find out why it was better, then decide if thats where you want to be going with your racing. At some point you will find the bikes limits, and maybe still be wanting to go faster, that to most means some money needs to be spent.

I think the biggest issue seems to be from 2 different perspectives.
1: A serious racer dedicated to trying to win no matter the cost
2: A hobbie racer just having fun out there amongst it

Unfortunately there isn't a viable way of separating the two, so there will always be those that feel its not fair.
:done:

[slowpoke]

So as a spectator have you ever been on track pushing as hard as you can to be passed by a better set up bike?
First thing most would do is go find out why it was better, then decide if thats where you want to be going with your racing. At some point you will find the bikes limits, and maybe still be wanting to go faster, that to most means some money needs to be spent.

I think the biggest issue seems to be from 2 different perspectives.
1: A serious racer dedicated to trying to win no matter the cost
2: A hobbie racer just having fun out there amongst it

Unfortunately there isn't a viable way of separating the two, so there will always be those that feel its not fair.
:done:

Egg-fuggin-zactly!!! 10 pages into it and you've hit the nail on the noggin' fella!

All we need now is MNZ to perform a psych and financial evaluation on each propsective racer and tell us which class we can race in. Righto, SS150's it is then....

[Tony.OK]

Egg-fuggin-zactly!!! 10 pages into it and you've hit the nail on the noggin' fella!

All we need now is MNZ to perform a psych and financial evaluation on each propsective racer and tell us which class we can race in. Righto, SS150's it is then....

Nah you'll be sweet in F3 mate:Pokey::msn-wink:

Shit if they do a financial evaluation I'd end up a spectator leaning over the pit wall:niceone:

[Robert Taylor]

Egg-fuggin-zactly!!! 10 pages into it and you've hit the nail on the noggin' fella!

All we need now is MNZ to perform a psych and financial evaluation on each propsective racer and tell us which class we can race in. Righto, SS150's it is then....

I saw Dom racing an MZ250 at Sound of Thunder. I think it was so slow it wasnt able to pitch the forks forward under hard braking, solves that issue. He had fun, racing another MZ250. We had fun watching, it was a similiar pace to cricket.
I think youd maybe be able to forego the safety gear and just wear a bicycle helmet and sunnies. Wear lycra for slipstreaming through the two stroke mist. Bug spatter that can ruin fork seals would no longer be a problem because the closing speed wouldnt exceed maybe 2km/h and if a squadron of bugs landed on the bike they may be able to assist in a little extra forward propulsion.
Clever guys those Czechs. Ive built a TTX36 for a Hyosung, how about one for your MZ Dom?

[GSVR]

So as a spectator have you ever been on track pushing as hard as you can to be passed by a better set up bike?
First thing most would do is go find out why it was better, then decide if thats where you want to be going with your racing. At some point you will find the bikes limits, and maybe still be wanting to go faster, that to most means some money needs to be spent.

I think the biggest issue seems to be from 2 different perspectives.
1: A serious racer dedicated to trying to win no matter the cost
2: A hobbie racer just having fun out there amongst it

Unfortunately there isn't a viable way of separating the two, so there will always be those that feel its not fair.
:done:

Dead right and its seems there are plenty of hobby (club) racers but the racing at National level is very thin. Club racers are even reluctant to enter the national round at their home track. Top national level racers don't often race at club level and then only for testing purposes.

The forum is a good place to knock around ideas. I don't race and don't ever intend to. So what are my motives? I want to see the class flourish as it could provide close and exciting racing for riders and spectators alike.

Watching one rider win every race by a long margin is just plain boring.

If someone asks me what it takes to build and race a competitive ProTwin bike I have to be honest. Its not cheap. But its ok if you just want to be a hobby racer and not race competitively.

[Tony.OK]

I want to see the class flourish as it could provide close and exciting racing for riders and spectators alike.



Agreed.................that could be said about each class nearly, I'm in F1 and can't afford to be up the front even if I thought could be with a better bike, but I don't expect the rules to change because of that.
Every class from SS150 or buckets up will have people that find it expensive, it really comes down to which class you'd like to be in rather than which class you can afford.

[johnsv650]

we were going to put the ttx in the mz but it didnt fit, okay then a 400 ducati bit it still didnt fit, i guessed it would be worth 5 seconds a lap and be worth about 3 mz's

[gav]

we were going to put the ttx in the mz but it didnt fit, okay then a 400 ducati bit it still didnt fit, i guessed it would be worth 5 seconds a lap and be worth about 3 mz's
lol, how did that $100 R6 shock go in the Ducati 600?

[Robert Taylor]

we were going to put the ttx in the mz but it didnt fit, okay then a 400 ducati bit it still didnt fit, i guessed it would be worth 5 seconds a lap and be worth about 3 mz's

John I forgot you need 2 for the MZ so that equates to 10 seconds per lap!!

[Rob Taylor]

Ok,so are we getting anywhere here????:bash: Frosty

[FROSTY]

How would a Cagiva Raptor go ? Honest question - I know F.A about them.
SHHHHH---they are a nice bit of kit out of the factory.--a bit fragile in certain areas and the seat height is waay down

[FROSTY]

75 is a big number! If any pt out there was making 75 it should be pulled down fer sure. It wouldn't like pump gas for a start.
70 sounds about right for a good one.
sorry mate but 72-73 out of the box -run in for a SV
The reason for 75 is to allow a reasonable variation to suit height above sea dyno variation etc.

[GSVR]

we were going to put the ttx in the mz but it didnt fit, okay then a 400 ducati bit it still didnt fit, i guessed it would be worth 5 seconds a lap and be worth about 3 mz's


John I forgot you need 2 for the MZ so that equates to 10 seconds per lap!!

So that would equate to 6 MZs then! Hell you could forget the shocks and start your own Production class. But then everyone in it would be going 10 secs a lap too slow.

[codgyoleracer]

[QUOTE=Tony.OK
Every class from SS150 or buckets up will have people that find it expensive, it really comes down to which class you'd like to be in rather than which class you can afford.[/QUOTE]

Theres some good advice in their for you young guys:

1) Commit to a budget figure that you are willing to spend or arraange with sponsors.
2) Ride in a class that allows you to spend the allocated budget most effectivley & most likely to get you good results.

If you dont have the budget but want to run in a class that requires more money/time then expect to do maybe as not as well as some of the guys that do have the budget organised. (unless you have talent for Africa of course -which can counterbalance lack of funds)

There is a class structure or "pecking order" in New Zealand , - at the top of the list is Superbike & somehwere in the middle is PT. I can definatly relate to wanting to be a part of the next class up the ladder - but to be part of it the fact is that 9 times out of 10 you need to spend the money to build a potential class winning bike no matter which one you are in.

Maybe the problem with this thread is that some are seeing the PT class being so close in build costs as the F3 class ?, - I can assure you that if someone went out there & built an F3 bike to the ultimate limit of the rules it would cost an arm and a leg (& probably a left testicle as well)

So this codgyole bugger says "do the budget first - then choose the class that suits" If you choose to build bike for a class that is less specificed than a competitor might for the same class - then expect to be relying on having more talent to get around the track quicker than the other fella.

Hope that makes sense ?????
Glen

[Robert Taylor]

Theres some good advice in their for you young guys:

1) Commit to a budget figure that you are willing to spend or arraange with sponsors.
2) Ride in a class that allows you to spend the allocated budget most effectivley & most likely to get you good results.

If you dont have the budget but want to run in a class that requires more money/time then expect to do maybe as not as well as some of the guys that do have the budget organised. (unless you have talent for Africa of course -which can counterbalance lack of funds)

There is a class structure or "pecking order" in New Zealand , - at the top of the list is Superbike & somehwere in the middle is PT. I can definatly relate to wanting to be a part of the next class up the ladder - but to be part of it the fact is that 9 times out of 10 you need to spend the money to build a potential class winning bike no matter which one you are in.

Maybe the problem with this thread is that some are seeing the PT class being so close in build costs as the F3 class ?, - I can assure you that if someone went out there & built an F3 bike to the ultimate limit of the rules it would cost an arm and a leg (& probably a left testicle as well)

So this codgyole bugger says "do the budget first - then choose the class that suits" If you choose to build bike for a class that is less specificed than a competitor might for the same class - then expect to be relying on having more talent to get around the track quicker than the other fella.

Hope that makes sense ?????
Glen

Glen, that makes a whole load of sense and in fact states the obvious.

[svr]

sorry mate but 72-73 out of the box -run in for a SV

Whatever. Someones dyno needs fixing.

[GSVR]

Maybe the problem with this thread is that some are seeing the PT class being so close in build costs as the F3 class

I would say build costs are about the same or even cheaper for F3. It only gets expensive in F3 if you want to run at the pointy end at National level or completely dominate at club level.

F3 at club level you can buy an old bike for as little as 2G and race. Whats the cheapest SV racebike sell for. I know I sold my old one 6.5G with spares. 10G for something reasonable but I doubt you'd get spare rims and wets with it.

Would be interesting to see what Sam wants for his bike.

[GSVR]

Whatever. Someones dyno needs fixing.

The dyno test only needs to be comparative. It would be very easy to spot if one bike is making excessive power.

I'm sure Robert Taylor used to have a dyno and even ran an add in Motorcycle Marketplace years ago showing the difference between a modded 250 Proddy bike and a stock one! Right Robert?

[slowpoke]

Theres some good advice in their for you young guys:

1) Commit to a budget figure that you are willing to spend or arraange with sponsors.
2) Ride in a class that allows you to spend the allocated budget most effectivley & most likely to get you good results.

If you dont have the budget but want to run in a class that requires more money/time then expect to do maybe as not as well as some of the guys that do have the budget organised. (unless you have talent for Africa of course -which can counterbalance lack of funds)

There is a class structure or "pecking order" in New Zealand , - at the top of the list is Superbike & somehwere in the middle is PT. I can definatly relate to wanting to be a part of the next class up the ladder - but to be part of it the fact is that 9 times out of 10 you need to spend the money to build a potential class winning bike no matter which one you are in.

Maybe the problem with this thread is that some are seeing the PT class being so close in build costs as the F3 class ?, - I can assure you that if someone went out there & built an F3 bike to the ultimate limit of the rules it would cost an arm and a leg (& probably a left testicle as well)

So this codgyole bugger says "do the budget first - then choose the class that suits" If you choose to build bike for a class that is less specificed than a competitor might for the same class - then expect to be relying on having more talent to get around the track quicker than the other fella.

Hope that makes sense ?????
Glen

Makes perfect sense mate.

Just like buying a house you have to be honest with yourself and buy/build something which suits your budget. Why alter the rules of a certain class to suit a certain budget when classes already exist to suit virtually any budget?

[svr]

Makes perfect sense mate.

Just like buying a house you have to be honest with yourself and buy/build something which suits your budget. Why alter the rules of a certain class to suit a certain budget when classes already exist to suit virtually any budget?

Except....
Motorcycle racing aint house buying. It's not based on reason, need, budget, risk assessment, cold utilitarian calculations of any type really (if it were, no one would even take part).
It's far closer to an obsession or addiction from a behavioural or psychological viewpoint, particularly for young racers.
If the average 18-20yr old apprentice can't `afford' rent and car payment - how the hell can he rationally `budget' as suggested above for a competitive bike, new tyres, decent van, `unforceeables', etc., etc.
Basically it requires bankrolling from a signicant other, or huge (=long term) debt for one seasons racing at the pointy end.

[wharfy]

Except....
Motorcycle racing aint house buying. It's not based on reason, need, budget, risk assessment, cold utilitarian calculations of any type really (if it were, no one would even take part).
It's far closer to an obsession or addiction from a behavioural or psychological viewpoint, particularly for young racers.
If the average 18-20yr old apprentice can't `afford' rent and car payment - how the hell can he rationally `budget' as suggested above for a competitive bike, new tyres, decent van, `unforceeables', etc., etc.
Basically it requires bankrolling from a signicant other, or huge (=long term) debt for one seasons racing at the pointy end.

I agree motorcycle racing is not about what is sensible :)
But an apprentice can budget and go racing, they might have to start in streetstock but that's what streetstock is for. He or she will have to give up or greatly reduce some of their other past times (drink,drugs,street bikes, girls/boys) That is what budgeting is "living within your means"

Visit link below to see how it is done.

http://www.skachillracing.co.nz/about.php

Of course I DON'T do that, one of the few advantages of being an old bugger !!!

[Shaun]

As with any thing in life, where this is a will, there IS a way

Bleating on the internet will never fix a thing

[Dom]

I saw Dom racing an MZ250 at Sound of Thunder. I think it was so slow it wasnt able to pitch the forks forward under hard braking, solves that issue. He had fun, racing another MZ250. We had fun watching, it was a similiar pace to cricket.
I think youd maybe be able to forego the safety gear and just wear a bicycle helmet and sunnies. Wear lycra for slipstreaming through the two stroke mist. Bug spatter that can ruin fork seals would no longer be a problem because the closing speed wouldnt exceed maybe 2km/h and if a squadron of bugs landed on the bike they may be able to assist in a little extra forward propulsion.
Clever guys those Czechs. Ive built a TTX36 for a Hyosung, how about one for your MZ Dom?

Yeah, sounds like a good idea. Just put two TTX shocks in the post, I'll send ya the address. Even, better why don't you throw in some of those Ohlins gas forks too.

Might be a little impratical, would be like having suspension worth 9 million on a NZ superbike but I'm up for it with the full support of CKT. I could be your development rider for MZ ohlins suspension, I'm sure there is a huge untouched market out there waiting.

[Ivan]

right I vouch for Roberts post earlier about helping with other brands regardless.

Dennis set my brothers 125 up for him running Showa Suspension and didnt say put Ohlins in etc he just helped my brother as best he could.

Right Racing is expensive deal with it if your commited youl find a way

[svr]

Right Racing is expensive deal with it if your commited youl find a way

Yes, and the 5 in protwin this year prove that

[svracer12]

If the average 18-20yr old apprentice can't `afford' rent and car payment - how the hell can he rationally `budget' as suggested above for a competitive bike, new tyres, decent van, `unforceeables', etc., etc.
.

i can and do and know at least 10 others that do too

[Ivan]

Yes, and the 5 in protwin this year prove that

all class numbers were down not just pro twins.

And Im not an apprentice Im a factory worker sounds like a dead meats job but I have a 4000 dollar car im paying off rent racing student loan also I have money going into another account to get me over seas racing to

[Robert Taylor]

The dyno test only needs to be comparative. It would be very easy to spot if one bike is making excessive power.

I'm sure Robert Taylor used to have a dyno and even ran an add in Motorcycle Marketplace years ago showing the difference between a modded 250 Proddy bike and a stock one! Right Robert?

I possibly did run such an ad. I never did any motor work on 250 production bikes but do remember dynoing a whole load of them at Wanganui. I also recall one that had a very strong engine, it was clearly illegal. That may have been the run I used as a comparison.

[Robert Taylor]

If the elite classes of Bears could be assimilated into The Nationals rounds and people that do VMCC etc could be enticed to do the Nationals then part if not all of the issue is solved. As I reacll there were up to 50 bikes on the grid for F1 at Sound Of Thunder. Collectively there are a lot of bikes out there and many have had a lot of money spent on them. That in itself makes a mockery of the ''it must be cheaper'' mindset. The bikes are there , its about enticing them to do the Nationals, or at minimum for those that dont wish to travel between Islands entice them to do the Island rounds. Have a South Island champion, North Island and then NZ champion, just mathematics.

[svr]

Dear god give it a rest, a couple of decades back there wasnt universally s so many external adjustment options nor any real suspension setup infrastructure and overall level of understanding. Now there is and people have moved with the times. So your statement is actually nonsensical. I would also respectfully suggest that there is not as much support as you may think for your views on turning the clock back.


Actually Crafar, Stroud and Slight all moved directly from production bikes to superbikes, and luckily for them, knew how to ride already.
Racers have certainly moved with the times - we all see those that are 5 sec off the pace are fiddling like hell with clickers and spending megabucks on suspension - do you ever suggest - out of proffessional duty if nothing else - that they are wasting their money?
Surrounding yourself with the handful of currently active racers that believe money is no barrier to particpation in this `sport' may skew your sample on this one. Maybe you should survey the thousands of talented riders who simply can no longer afford to ride in a recognised class before calling me nonsensical.
With this thread Frosty was musing on how to make this class DOable for RACERS. Basically its a question about racer motivation - how the hell are you qualified to make any comment on that?

[Robert Taylor]

Actually Crafar, Stroud and Slight all moved directly from production bikes to superbikes, and luckily for them, knew how to ride already.
Racers have certainly moved with the times - we all see those that are 5 sec off the pace are fiddling like hell with clickers and spending megabucks on suspension - do you ever suggest - out of proffessional duty if nothing else - that they are wasting their money?
Surrounding yourself with the handful of currently active racers that believe money is no barrier to particpation in this `sport' may skew your sample on this one. Maybe you should survey the thousands of talented riders who simply can no longer afford to ride in a recognised class before calling me nonsensical.
With this thread Frosty was musing on how to make this class DOable for RACERS. Basically its a question about racer motivation - how the hell are you qualified to make any comment on that?

FYI We have LOTS of customers that are definitely not so flush financially and we almost always find ways of giving them bang for buck. The good Swedish product is not all that we do.
For every customer that we have that is off the pace ( myriad reasons for that and your comment was emotive ) we have lots that are on the pace.
Thousands? Name them.
There are LOTS of racers out there with motivation, its just an issue of motivating more of them to do the Nationals. As you put it so bluntly ''how in the hell am I qualified'' Well yes in helping many people to understand bike set up principles that must in a small way help motivation.
In case some of us hadnt noticed there is also a recession going on and that must have impacted on numbers. But that shouldnt be justification in itself for messing with the rules again. In any event why dont you count up how many ''motivated'' people of the thousands you have suggested have actually posted on this thread in support of your stance? The poll result thus far also hardly concurs.

[slowpoke]

Actually Crafar, Stroud and Slight all moved directly from production bikes to superbikes, and luckily for them, knew how to ride already.

Isn't a superbike just a modified production bike? It's alogical step, not a leap of faith.
Racers have certainly moved with the times - we all see those that are 5 sec off the pace are fiddling like hell with clickers and spending megabucks on suspension - do you ever suggest - out of proffessional duty if nothing else - that they are wasting their money?

Being a relatively new 5 sec off the pace racer I'm keen to learn as much as I can. I do that by changing gearing and fiddling like hell. I'm learning heaps, getting faster, and bought a well used bike with top quality suspension so it would be competitive for several seasons and I wouldn't need to upgrade at a later date as I progressed up the learning curve. I'm in it for the long haul so to buy a cheaper lower spec bike is a false economy in my book. Wasted money? The bike cost a fraction of what it cost to build new and I'm having a ball, so no.
Surrounding yourself with the handful of currently active racers that believe money is no barrier to particpation in this `sport' may skew your sample on this one. Maybe you should survey the thousands of talented riders who simply can no longer afford to ride in a recognised class before calling me nonsensical.

Instead of "handful" of racers you should have written "all" mate. Robert helps anyone and everyone (race or road for that matter) who's motivated enough to ask a question, no matter how simple or complex. In my dealings with him he's usually been able to offer a variety of solutions to suit a variety of budgets. Money no object? Haha, I've only ever put two sets of brand new tyres on my race bike in the 2 dozen or so track or race days I've done. I'd take Robert's perspective of all current racers over your perspective of wannabe racers as being more accurate. Are you saying those "thousands" of racers can't find the cash to race an SS150, or pre89 Junior bike, or tape up the lights on their road bike? Get real fella, there's a class to suit every budget so if people wanna race they will. I did my first few race meetings on my road bike so whats stopping other people doing the same? Determination is just as important off track as on.
With this thread Frosty was musing on how to make this class DOable for RACERS. Basically its a question about racer motivation - how the hell are you qualified to make any comment on that?

Seeing as he associates with a wide spectrum of racers on a daily basis, and volounteers a huge amount of his time to help racers out, I'd say his comments are entirely relevant.