URGENT Advice req re smoking at work.

[cowboyz]

I work outside.

My workplace have decided I am not allowed to smoke during working hours.

It is a public golf course so others can smoke around me during working hours its just I am not allowed to because I am being paid to be there so the area is not smokefree, just me. (being as I am the only empolyee who smokes it only effects me but technically, none of the employees are allowed to smoke in the workplace)

If I am standing in the middle of the 10th tee at 12.25pm I am not allowed to smoke. If I wait 5 mins till 12.30pm I am allowed to smoke.

Is this legal? A way out before tomorrows working day would be mint.



Please???????????? Fucking long day today.....

[Mom]

That sucks mate. Interesting thing is there is the smokefree workplace legislation that says employers have to provide a smokefree workplace, so I guess they are technically and legally allowed to prevent you smoking in the workplace. Bit difficult to make it smoke free though as you work outside and others can smoke around you. Perhaps it is more of an image thing that they are concerned about?

Most of us social lepers are only able to smoke outside at break times, you have been fortunate enough to not have the break restriction on you till now.

Good luck with that, let us know how you get along, buy some nicotine gum or something to see you through if it is a problem.

[MSTRS]

Unless they declare the whole place smoke-free for all, I'm not sure how they can enforce it for just staff. It's not in your employment contract, is it? And you'd have to agree to a new one for that 'rule' to be imposed on you. Obviously this does not apply when/if you are in some enclosed space (clubrooms, implement shed etc)

[FROSTY]

Unless of course its a condition of employment that you dont smoke during working hours

[Nasty]

Unless they declare the whole place smoke-free for all, I'm not sure how they can enforce it for just staff. It's not in your employment contract, is it? And you'd have to agree to a new one for that 'rule' to be imposed on you. Obviously this does not apply when/if you are in some enclosed space (clubrooms, implement shed etc)

Am inclined to agree with Mstrs here ... the place would have to be smokefree to stop all smoking not just staff - that is what was done at hospitals ... staff and patients must leave the grounds at some hospitals in order to smoke - not just staff ... as the grounds are smokefree as well ... that is the only way it could be enforced there.

[cowboyz]

to make it clear, the course is not smoke free. Just the empolyees, and being the only smoker on staff means just me.

There is a HUGE backstory that goes with this that I wont go into but rest assured that this rule is just to pick on me as a backlash for past events.

No it is not a condition of employment that I dont smoke. I smoked before I started working there and have been working there for over 3 years.

I got a notice today that says lots of stuff but it is just this point that has the biggest effect on me that I want a way out of striaght away.

4. Smoking. No smoking during paid working hours. Smoking is permitted during your breaks only.

These rules are not optional but will be adhered to by all staff.

There are 7 rules all together, the others I can argue in time. Working without smoking gets me wound up pretty quick though.

This notice was given to me this morning.

[awayatc]

look at all the money you will save.....

Good time to quit.

[cowboyz]

I have spoken to the smokefree act people and they say they cant be called in to enforce this non-smoking policy as it is a public place and as far as they are concerned I can smoke there. They say you can make a person smokefree but you can make any place (indoor or outdoor) smokefree.

They also warn that I may be dismissed under misconduct under employment relations if I do smoke because I have been told that I am not allowed to but are not sure how that all works.

[hedcase07]

to make it clear, the course is not smoke free. Just the empolyees, and being the only smoker on staff means just me.

There is a HUGE backstory that goes with this that I wont go into but rest assured that this rule is just to pick on me as a backlash for past events.

No it is not a condition of employment that I dont smoke. I smoked before I started working there and have been working there for over 3 years.

I got a notice today that says lots of stuff but it is just this point that has the biggest effect on me that I want a way out of striaght away.

4. Smoking. No smoking during paid working hours. Smoking is permitted during your breaks only.

These rules are not optional but will be adhered to by all staff.

There are 7 rules all together, the others I can argue in time. Working without smoking gets me wound up pretty quick though.

This notice was given to me this morning.

Can you tell me youre employers so i know not to apply for any upcoming vacencies...
I think this is discrimination?

i believe that if you work outdoors or in an open enviroment you are allowed to smoke.
Bad luck..

[cowboyz]

look at all the money you will save.....

Good time to quit.

with all due respect.

Fuck off.

Now is not a good time to tell a smoker that he should give up. I know its bad for me. I know I am going to hell in a handbasket. But when you smoke it makes other people more tolerable.

[Nasty]

That was very clear in your first post that the course is not smoke free. if you read subsequent posts evidence you need to provided as to why others could force a change.

If this is a change of employment there needs to be discussion of the change of conditions of employment, Mom knows more about this part of the law than I do.

Looks like you get a little wound up just thinking about it anyways :(

[HenryDorsetCase]

to make it clear, the course is not smoke free. Just the empolyees, and being the only smoker on staff means just me.

There is a HUGE backstory that goes with this that I wont go into but rest assured that this rule is just to pick on me as a backlash for past events.

No it is not a condition of employment that I dont smoke. I smoked before I started working there and have been working there for over 3 years.

I got a notice today that says lots of stuff but it is just this point that has the biggest effect on me that I want a way out of striaght away.

4. Smoking. No smoking during paid working hours. Smoking is permitted during your breaks only.

These rules are not optional but will be adhered to by all staff.

There are 7 rules all together, the others I can argue in time. Working without smoking gets me wound up pretty quick though.

This notice was given to me this morning.

I have zero sympathy for you. I do not approve of smoking, would not employ a smoker, and would not as an employer tolerate paid "ten minutes every hour" addict breaks.

Having said that, and read your post that you believe that this is a punitive action taken against you by your employer for past perceived transgressions, then my advice to you is: if you are in a union, get them involved. If not, then get an employment advocate or lawyer on the payroll and take it from there.

The "no unilateral variation of employment contract" and " if they ask you to give something up then they should give you something extra" rules would seem to apply.

I wouldnt even take this as a paying gig!

Why not spend the money you would spend on lawyers on a "give up smoking" course? or a hypnosis or whatever.?

edit: Just had a quick look at the Smoke Free Environments Act s5 says:



Smoking in workplaces prohibited

*

(1) An employer must take all reasonably practicable steps to ensure that no person smokes at any time in a workplace that is not—
o

(a) a vehicle in which smoking is permitted under section 5A; or
o

(b) a dedicated smoking room in which smoking is permitted under section 6.

(2) No employee or volunteer may smoke at any time in a workplace that is not a vehicle in which smoking is permitted under section 5A.

Section 5 was substituted, as from 10 December 2004, by section 5 Smoke-free Environments Amendment Act 2003 (2003 No 127).


now notwithstanding that your workplace is a place where the public have access, I'm sure if you look at your employment contract it will define that area as your workplace. that being the case then you are, to put it in a nutshell, fucked

[Madness]

Seems to me like they are introducing rules under employment legislation, rather than the Smoke Free Environments Act. (http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1990/0108/latest/DLM223191.html?search=ts_all%40act%40bill%40regula tion_smoke_resel&sr=1)

There's a few savvy Employment guru's around here, give 'em an hour to get home from work (and to have a smoke)...

[KiwiKat]

Technically your employer cannot change your workplace code of conduct and enforce new rules without it being negotiated with you or your employer representative. In reality most employers do what they want and the "if you don't like it well you know what you can do" attitude prevails.:Pokey: No easy answer with this one, you really have to make the call as to whether you want to push it.

Interesting that research shows that abstinence from smoking may increase your life but abstinence from sex (guys) may decrease it. :bleh:Maybe you need to do more of the other at work instead.

[cowboyz]

That was very clear in your first post that the course is not smoke free. if you read subsequent posts evidence you need to provided as to why others could force a change.
I dont understand what this means?

If this is a change of employment there needs to be discussion of the change of conditions of employment, Mom knows more about this part of the law than I do.
no discussion. showed up to work this morning and got a letter telling me that I am not allowed to smoke. end of story. Told if I do smoke then there will be represcussions (sp?)

Looks like you get a little wound up just thinking about it anyways :(

Yeah, I am wound up about this one. Alot!

[Indiana_Jones]

<img src="http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/wikiality/images/b/ba/Mr_mackey.jpg">

Smoking is bad mmmmkay

-Indy

[cowboyz]

Technically your employer cannot change your workplace code of conduct and enforce new rules without it being negotiated with you or your employer representative.

technically? Is that technically or legally? Surely there must be some black and white answer to if an employer can do this or not.
In reality most employers do what they want and the "if you don't like it well you know what you can do" attitude prevails.:Pokey: No easy answer with this one, you really have to make the call as to whether you want to push it.

.

push it where? What are my legal responsibilities? Have I got any or am I surposed to just go " Oh well, no more smoking then, carry on"

[HenryDorsetCase]

push it where? What are my legal responsibilities? Have I got any or am I surposed to just go " Oh well, no more smoking then, carry on"

Hey it turns out I am retarded.

if in doubt, check the definitions: Your workplace does not qualify as a place to which the SEAct applies:




workplace, in relation to an employer,—

*

(a) means an area that is—
o

(i) an internal area, within or on a building or structure occupied by the employer, usually frequented by employees or volunteers during the course of their employment; or
o

(ii) an internal area, within or on a ship (being a ship to which section 10 applies), an aircraft, or a train, owned, leased, or otherwise operated by the employer, usually frequented by employees or volunteers during the course of their employment; and

*

(b) includes a cafeteria, corridor, lift, lobby, stairwell, toilet, washroom, or other common internal area attached to, forming part of, or used in conjunction with a work place within the meaning of paragraph (a); and

*

(c) includes an internal area within or on a vehicle that—
o

(i) is not an aircraft, a ship, or a train; but
o

(ii) is provided by the employer and normally used by employees or volunteers; and

*

(d) includes an operating taxi; but

*

(e) does not include—
o

(i) a motel, or a bedroom or suite in a hotel; or
o

(ii) a cabin or suite, for the time being assigned to a passenger or passengers, on a ship; or
o

(iii) a sleeping compartment, for the time being assigned to a passenger or passengers, on a train; or
o

(iv) a cabin, for the time being assigned to only one employee or volunteer, or to the master or owner, on a ship; or
o

(v) a sleeping compartment, for the time being assigned to only one employee or volunteer, on a train; or
o

(vi) a prison cell; or
o

(vii) a dwellinghouse occupied by the employer.



so we're in the realm of employment Lor.

so that point about unilateral changes to contract would seem to apply. Sorry to put you crook!

[tri boy]

They also warn that I may be dismissed under misconduct under employment relations if I do smoke because I have been told that I am not allowed to but are not sure how that all works.


Sounds to me like gutless mangament tactics are being set to work here.
Sneak behind a tree for a quick durry. They need to give you a few warnings IF they catch you.

[gatch]

If this is a silly kind of punishment because of past indiscretions, then tell them to eat a dick.

Then again, if like most people who I know that smoke on the job OUTSIDE OF YOUR BREAK TIMES, then you probably take 5-10 minutes to fuck around with your cancer stick, NOT being productive. If this is the case, boo fuckin hoo.

[twotyred]

sounds illegal to me,judging by your comments about other issues, it seems like they are trying to drive you to leave or give them reason to dismiss you... might be time to look for a better employer.

[cowboyz]

Hey it turns out I am retarded.

if in doubt, check the definitions: Your workplace does not qualify as a place to which the SEAct applies:



so we're in the realm of employment Lor.

so that point about unilateral changes to contract would seem to apply. Sorry to put you crook!



It doesnt seem right. If the AREA was deemed to be smokefree then I would have to grin and bear it. But just making EMPOLYEES smokefree seems a breach of human rights? Even if it was dont with notice then it would still be a breach in my mind.

I am NOT looking for someone to agree with me. I am looking for someone who knows about this stuff to tell me striaght how it is or isnt.

How about this for an example.

If you have a company and decide the carpark is smokefree and make your employees go to the roadside to smoke and then a customer came in and stood in the carpark smoking, is that customer breahing company policy or not?

[Mom]

They also warn that I may be dismissed under misconduct under employment relations if I do smoke because I have been told that I am not allowed to but are not sure how that all works.

What does your employment contract state is considered misconduct? I have not seen an employment contract that lays out the whys and wherefores of smoking on the job, most say that the smokefree workplace act is enforced. This is employment problem not smokefree one IMHO. You hopefully will have signed a contract that lays out some detail of what is expected. Have a look at your company rules to see what is what re somking at work. I am reading this as a bigger picture issue. Fr what ever reason they are clamping down and tightening your workplace rules. Fair practice dictates this should be done with consultation with the employee. Remember those words "fair practise". As a smoker I sympathise with your dillema mate, but really, I would not be taking them on over it. Smoking on breaks only is fair, and the practised norm.



I have zero sympathy for you. I do not approve of smoking, would not employ a smoker, and would not as an employer tolerate paid "ten minutes every hour" addict breaks.


Interesting attitude right there. I, as an employer would not approve a paid 10 min an hour smoke break either, but I sure as shit would not dismiss a smoker as a potential employee either. Heard of discrimination have you?

[cowboyz]

sounds illegal to me,judging by your comments about other issues, it seems like they are trying to drive you to leave or give them reason to dismiss you... might be time to look for a better employer.

I am doing that. it is not a quick process these days though. Not in a position to quit without income.

[Mom]

If you have a company and decide the carpark is smokefree and make your employees go to the roadside to smoke and then a customer came in and stood in the carpark smoking, is that customer breahing company policy or not?


Yes that customer certainly is. There will be notices about the place stating it is a smokefree area, hopefully most smokers will read and abide by the rule. Unfortunately, the customer can not be cesured or indeed sacked for doing it, the employee most certainly can.

[rainman]

Technically your employer cannot change your workplace code of conduct and enforce new rules without it being negotiated with you or your employer representative.

Not so sure about this one. For one thing most employment contracts have a generic clause about "company policy" or the like and as long as it's reasonable they can get away with most, well, reasonable things. Whether banning smoking is reasonable or not? I dunno, depends on how much Cowboyz wants to pay a lawyer to find out, I guess.

For another thing neither "company policy" or "code of conduct" appears in the ERA.

The closest I can find is the Human Rights Act S21 "Prohibited grounds of discrimination"


For the purposes of this Act, the prohibited grounds of discrimination are—
...
(h) Disability, which means—
(i) Physical disability or impairment:
(ii) Physical illness:
(iii) Psychiatric illness:


But then I'm not sure anyone wants to try on defining smoking as a Psychiatric illness... :laugh:

Sorry, son, my vote is "Get some Nicorette, or find a new job".

[cowboyz]

What does your employment contract state is considered misconduct? I have not seen an employment contract that lays out the whys and wherefores of smoking on the job, most say that the smokefree workplace act is enforced. This is employment problem not smokefree one IMHO. You hopefully will have signed a contract that lays out some detail of what is expected. Have a look at your company rules to see what is what re somking at work. I am reading this as a bigger picture issue. Fr what ever reason they are clamping down and tightening your workplace rules. Fair practice dictates this should be done with consultation with the employee. Remember those words "fair practise". As a smoker I sympathise with your dillema mate, but really, I would not be taking them on over it. Smoking on breaks only is fair, and the practised norm.


I can, and have in the past, smoke and continue to drive a mower.

Empolyment contract says nothing about misconduct.

smokefree act does not apply here. because it is a public place they cant make the course smokefree.

they already have got away with an assault with a weapon and although witnessed by the general manager they have found the acused innocent with no action taken. This smokefree policy is a relatitation (sp?) from my laying police charges against a friend of the boss

[Mom]

I can, and have in the past, smoke and continue to drive a mower.

Empolyment contract says nothing about misconduct.

smokefree act does not apply here. because it is a public place they cant make the course smokefree.

they already have got away with an assault with a weapon and although witnessed by the general manager they have found the acused innocent with no action taken. This smokefree policy is a relatitation (sp?) from my laying police charges against a friend of the boss

Like I said "I am reading this as a bigger picture issue" and yep it is. You are essentially employed by a committee? Personalities will be rife and in my experience, no good outcomes are achieved in these situations. Think I will take this off forum for a bit :whistle:

[MSTRS]

Paranoia means you 'think they are out to get you'. Whether they are or not.

They may not be strictly in the right with this change, but if you can't afford to test it, then you're fucked, as others have said.

[cowboyz]

Paranoia means you 'think they are out to get you'. Whether they are or not.

They may not be strictly in the right with this change, but if you can't afford to test it, then you're fucked, as others have said.

yep. thats the bit that sucks.

[Skyryder]

I have spoken to the smokefree act people and they say they cant be called in to enforce this non-smoking policy as it is a public place and as far as they are concerned I can smoke there. They say you can make a person smokefree but you can make any place (indoor or outdoor) smokefree.

They also warn that I may be dismissed under misconduct under employment relations if I do smoke because I have been told that I am not allowed to but are not sure how that all works.

It's a policy thing. Your employer can set a policy that emplees must abide by. If he/she/board etc set a policy of no smoking on the grounds that are controlled by your emplees there is shit all that you can do. It has nothing to do with your contract or the emplyment act. some consultation might have been in order but they do not have to consult emplees to set policy.

You could go and see an employment lawyer if you think that your emplee has a hidden agenda i.e wants to get rid of you. If there has been other emplyoment issues where only yourself has been involved you may be able to argue on those grounds. If however if this has come from your workmates?? and they are a bit pissed off with your smoking I don't think you have a shit show in hell.

From an ex smoker. Might be time for an appraisal of the 'habit.'

Good luck either way.


Skyryder

[rainman]

yep. thats the bit that sucks.

Serious question - can you get by with smoking during breaks plus nicorette? Jobs are pretty hard to find at the moment..

And I'm not being the sanctimonious ex-smoker; I would absolutely encourage you or any other smoker to quit - I've seen the effects of lifelong smoking on people I care about and it ain't pretty - but I do know it's tough to do.

Maybe cutting down for the sake of keeping your job is a good idea, though?

[cowboyz]

ok. thats the word then. If they are legally doing something then I cant complain too much about it. I dont have to like it.

This moves on then. I am allowed to smoke on my breaks. Up to now, we dont actually get breaks and there is no provision for breaks in my contract. Up till now we grab food/drink/smokes on the go and keep working till its done. We have lunch which has been generally accepted as half hour from 1230 till 1. Am I legally entitled to go sit on my arse and have a smoke in my car at 10 and 3? (finish work at 4)

[cowboyz]

Serious question - can you get by with smoking during breaks plus nicorette? Jobs are pretty hard to find at the moment..

And I'm not being the sanctimonious ex-smoker; I would absolutely encourage you or any other smoker to quit - I've seen the effects of lifelong smoking on people I care about and it ain't pretty - but I do know it's tough to do.

Maybe cutting down for the sake of keeping your job is a good idea, though?

fucked if I want this job. I have been trying to give up smoking for years. Being told I am and arent allowed to do something doesnt sit well with me and the more I am told I am not allowed to smoke the more I want one.

Looking for a new job though.

[hospitalfood]

bad day.

I just finished working at a house where I had to go off the property for a smoke ( so a smoke or two at 10am,12.30pm and 3pm ), it was not all that bad, but it still bummed me out a bit. It was at the request of the home owner. Think he did not want it around his kids.

addiction is now recognized as an illness, has been for a while.
back in the bad old days addicts were criminally insane and locked up, now they get expensive treatment. in my opinion a vast improvement as many of them go on to lead productive lives.

I think a good lawyer could argue it for you.

If you think you are getting a raw deal.......?????

my advice would be to follow the rules for now, don't break them. try to build up enough evidence of unfair treatment to fuck them hard in court. and I mean serious pay-out hard !
as an example you can sue them for lack of self esteem.

so, try to find good legal advice, initially you should be ok without a lawyer provided you say nothing to you co-workers or boss, do as your told, and collect evidence.

its a long game but the rewards are worth it.

[MSTRS]

ok. thats the word then. If they are legally doing something then I cant complain too much about it. I dont have to like it.

This moves on then. I am allowed to smoke on my breaks. Up to now, we dont actually get breaks and there is no provision for breaks in my contract. Up till now we grab food/drink/smokes on the go and keep working till its done. We have lunch which has been generally accepted as half hour from 1230 till 1. Am I legally entitled to go sit on my arse and have a smoke in my car at 10 and 3? (finish work at 4)

Once upon a time, and this was waaaay before the ECA came into force, I believe that the employer had to grant a 10 min break every 3 hours (or less). And a lunch break somewhere near the middle of an 8 hour shift.

[hospitalfood]

my understanding of breaks is this.....if you are doing an 8 hour day you are allowed 10 mins in the morning and 10 in the afternoon. you are also allowed 5 mins to wash your hands for each break, so 15 mins morning and afternoon. a lunch break is not a paid break so it does not come into it, aside from the fact you are allowed one.

[hospitalfood]

also, the fact that you do not get a break is illegal I think.

[MSTRS]

Hmmmm...if you are expected to work through your break, perhaps you can present your employer with a retrospective invoice for all that time they paid you at $Time instead of $Time-and-a-half...leave your smoking (which is not illegal) alone and you are prepared to drop the claim on umpteen hours X $Half.
Negotiate your way out of this.
Or find another job.

[ynot slow]

The old unionists would turn in their graves,we got an 8 hour day(labour day),which enabled a break every 2 hours funnily called smoko breaks.Seems friggin tough,the act says you can't smoke in company vehicles if employer wants.Old company I worked for had most of the carpet layers smoking,they would roll up anytime and go outside,but smoked in vans which annoyed the boss.Point is/was they couldn't enforce non smoking as the vans were for workers and carpet/vinyl and floor prep guys are scarce.

Sounds like they want you gone come hell or high water,suss out the law as it effects you,fair enough they want non smokers for the clean look of staff,but who cares what the staff look like(percieved with smoke out of mouth) as long as they are doin the job,bloody easy to say give up,but same as saying to others no coffee breaks,or v,red bull drinks.

[CookMySock]

they already have got away with an assault with a weapon and although witnessed by the general manager they have found the acused innocent with no action taken. This smokefree policy is a relatitation (sp?) from my laying police charges against a friend of the bossCoolies, so what you need is something that will fuck them up real good, AND keep you legal so they can't touch you?


I have been trying to give up smoking for years. Being told I am and arent allowed to do something doesnt sit well with me and the more I am told I am not allowed to smoke the more I want one.Yes I see that you feel really pissed off about that.

If they want to get rid of you real baaaaad, how will THEY feel if you just gave up smoking and sit there and smirk at them? I suggest that will really rip their ration pack ay. :blip: THAT will be a really amusing reason to give up smoking.. hehe. :blip: And combined with all the other reasons, it might be just what you need.

Also, you are fully entitled to some support from them while giving up smoking. I suggest you write them a letter, and inform them that you have decided to give up smoking, but you are exceedingly stressed about this, particularly the manner in which it has been foist upon you, and that you need some assistance over the next three weeks, namely, a. more regular breaks, and b. a stress-free workplace and c. add further things needed here.

Make it clear to them it is just for three or four weeks. If they tell you to get bent, then send a copy of their reply to the local newspaper, MP, and anyone else whose fuse you can light over it. They will go down really hard from almost every concievable organisation for declining to assist you in that manner.

Good luck, whatever you decide, and sorry to hear about your tough day.
Steve

[Forest]

No it is not a condition of employment that I dont smoke. I smoked before I started working there and have been working there for over 3 years.

I got a notice today that says lots of stuff but it is just this point that has the biggest effect on me that I want a way out of striaght away.

4. Smoking. No smoking during paid working hours. Smoking is permitted during your breaks only.

These rules are not optional but will be adhered to by all staff.


So you can smoke during your break, but are not allowed to smoke during working hours?

Cry me a river you big baby. That's a standard condition of employment in most workplaces.

[jafar]

Hmmmm...if you are expected to work through your break, perhaps you can present your employer with a retrospective invoice for all that time they paid you at $Time instead of $Time-and-a-half...leave your smoking (which is not illegal) alone and you are prepared to drop the claim on umpteen hours X $Half.
Negotiate your way out of this.
Or find another job.

It is one thing to issue an invoice but often quite another to actually collect on it.:argh:

I suspect the 'employer' in this case is loading the deck so they can have an excuse to fire someone & thereby reduce the wage bill over the coming winter months. Justifiable dismissal goes down so much better with the bean counters than redundancy payments or having the employment court rape them financially for unfair dismissal.:doh:
There are 7 new rules they have introduced, any or all can be used for the purpose of sending some poor unfortunate to the employment scrapheap & saving the bottom line :bleh:

[Monamie]

Bloody hell Lance that sooo sucks big time:Oi:
What are those buggers doing-shame you have to work with/for such petty twots. They obviously don't have enough going on in their lives so have to upset yours-take it as a complement that they find you so interesting :cool:
Don't know what you should do except follow what they want and stick to the rule of breaks every 2 or whatever hours is mandatory.
I would also entertain the idea of working elsewhere as life is hard enough without losers making it harder for us all.
Closing that door opens shite loads of others my dear:banana::2thumbsup:

[cowboyz]

So you can smoke during your break, but are not allowed to smoke during working hours?

Cry me a river you big baby. That's a standard condition of employment in most workplaces.

it is more about the rules changing without notice.

I used to drive a forklift in a factory. smoko break was every 2 hours and it worked fine and I abided by the rules.

I got a job working outside so I could smoke all day to my hearts content. Now the rules have changed without notice. Again, if EVERYONE was stopped smoking I would have less of a problem with it. But having a group of guys smoking around you and your not allowed to gets irritating really fast.

In any case, I will abide by the rules, but will also make sure they do too.

[Oakie]

Just trying to remember all the comments that popped up so far and respond:

Smoking = addiction = disability = implications under the Human Rights Act. This has not yet been tried in court but is arguable.

Smoke break. If they don't want you to stop for a smoke when you are supposed to be working they are quite safe on that one as long as no one else takes a 5 minute break just for a spell during the day. What happens if you say I can smoke and work at the same time I don't know.

Is it 'the look' they are worried about? The image of the greenskeeper with a fag hanging out of his mouth might be what they're not keen on.

Breaks. There has not been anything in legislation defining breaks. They would need to be mentioned in your employment agreement for you to be entitled. Without that you aren't entitled to one as of right although there was legislation floating around pre-election making breaks compulsary. I'm not sure what's happened to that.

Employment Relations Act. I keep thinking of a test often used when employment cases get to court ... "was this an action that a reasonable employer would have taken?"

Personally I think their approach is unreasonable but is probably defendable in law. It would have been nice of them to say why they have made this change and perhaps that is a question that can be asked.

I'd be interested to hear how this proceeds so let us know huh?

[Owl]

(being as I am the only empolyee who smokes it only effects me

You may have an out cowboyz, if this action is directed at you only. Do your employer’s intend to be consistent and stop other staff from smoking?

I have a very reliable source that says you’re not the only worker there that smokes during working hour!!!:yes:

[mynameis]

Leaving all the waffle behind about the past, them not being fair ect..ect..ect.. And the smoke free zone because it does not apply in this case as it isn't a smoke free area.

Alright the correct answer to this is YES they can fully enforce the no smoking during working hour's policy on all employees therefore you're fucked. It is as simple as that.

In terms of breaks, no employers aren't legally obliged to give anyone breaks, including a LUNCH break. The ERA 2000 doesn't state employers have to give a break. However there are suggested guidelines by Labour department.

Look at it this way, which is how "they" (your employer) looks at it:

You're being paid to work and therefore should not be spending half an hour, 1 hour per day smoking, whatever the case is. And if you continuously do so you can be performance managed out, easily, very easily.

Time to quit the fag ;) Anything else just ask.

[cowboyz]

Thats the guts I was looking for. Just time to harden up then.

I was speaking to the dept of labour and as of 1st april it will be law that you are to have a 10 min break every 2 hours worked and a half hour unpaid lunch break if work more than 5.5 hours.

So I got 2 weeks to work until I get a afternoon smoke break.

[mynameis]

Yeap during your breaks you can smoke.

On the flip side of this whole thing you should be happy you have a job !

;) What handicapp are you on ?

[cowboyz]

i am not actually that good a golfer. People think I am cause I hit the ball a long way. I tend to drive about 250-270 and then fuck everything up to end up with bogie. On a good round I get a few birdies but overall I shoot in the mid 80s. My official handicap is only 21 cause I never actually play a full round or competitions.

I can prep a demon green though.

[mynameis]

Mid 80's is good mate ! Have you done the full apprenticeship and are a fully qualified green keeper?

Have you looked at the Auckland market, good money over here is what I hear?? I take it you wouldn't move here :)

[JATZ]

Smoking = addiction = disability = implications under the Human Rights Act. This has not yet been tried in court but is arguable.


Soooo, does this mean I can apply for a sickness benefit ?

Back on topic, tell them to lay off, after all you havn't got long to live

[mikeey01]

I got a notice today that says lots of stuff but it is just this point that has the biggest effect on me that I want a way out of striaght away.

4. Smoking. No smoking during paid working hours. Smoking is permitted during your breaks only.
This notice was given to me this morning.

Ok firstly, do you have a copy of your contract with your employer?
Secondly did it say it was just a "Notice" or does it say something else?

[Gareth51]

In terms of breaks, no employers aren't legally obliged to give anyone breaks, including a LUNCH break. The ERA 2000 doesn't state employers have to give a break. However there are suggested guidelines by Labour department.

.

Very true but just think how many employees you would have if you tried to write that into their contract

[gatch]

How the fuck does smoking count as a disability, WHEN YOU START AND CONTINUE TO POISON YOURSELF BY CHOICE, in the face of common sense and medical science..

[T.W.R]

Are you on an individual employment agreement or a collective agreement?
either way any thing stated in the employment agreement can't be changed or have addition of clauses without agreement of all parties. If it's a collective agreement there has to be a detail on how an existing agreement can be changed.
Going to be a bit of paperwork shuffling for them :lol:

[mynameis]

Lots have mentioned about agreements/contracts ect..ect.. Good thought however you really do need to understand how employment contracts works. (The law can catch you out in many ways) It's not as simple as what's printed black and white on paper.

If there's a simple clause in his contract which states "you will follow all reasonable instructions laid out by the employer" then he can be performance managed out if he continues to smoke during working hours.

There's lots of finer points you can pull out and argue endlessly and quiet frankly meaninglessly, in his case his employer is in a position to enforce what they have decided to.

Look at it from a simple plane perspective without getting to complicated guys: working hours you're meant to be working not taking breaks or smoking and blowing time away regardless of whether you get the job done..ect..ect.. and 101 other excuses people come up with.

At the end of the day his case is simple and he has to follow what has been laid out by his employer and quit smoking during working hours.

When unsure of cases like this take a commonsense approach and 9 out of 10 times you should be able to work out the answer yourself. You can always try and pull out smarty points from the hat but how it works is simple. The question you'd pose in this case is:

Is it reasonable for someone to smoke at work during working hours (for when you're getting paid) ? Answer is NO.

If for some reason he decides to pursue this down the legal track, he doesn't stand a chance.

[Max Preload]

The question you'd pose in this case is:

Is it reasonable for someone to smoke at work during working hours (for when you're getting paid) ? Answer is NO.

Despite being a non-smoker (never have, never will) I have to disagree. As long as it doesn't affect his work performance I'd disagree. If he's smoking while he works, in an area that is not designated smoke-free, it should have absolutely no bearing.

As for no statutory breaks, I find this unbelievable. My brief amount of research on the subject (2 minutes on google) appears to lay the blame at the feet of the 'evil National government' and the 1991 ECA. However, I note that the 'friends of the workers party' Labour didn't much care to reintroduce the award with the 2000 ERA.

Fortunately I'm self-employed, skilled and in demand so I take my breaks when I damned well feel like it. But even before becoming self-employed I made sure I had all the breaks I needed and if anyone had attempted to tell me not to, they'd have been told to get stuffed. I can't believe anyone would agree to working without breaks.

[mynameis]

Despite being a non-smoker (never have, never will) I have to disagree. As long as it doesn't affect his work performance I'd disagree. If he's smoking while he works, in an area that is not designated smoke-free, it should have absolutely no bearing.



It's not about where he smokes, as it's already established that it's not a smoke-free zone so effectively he can smoke pretty much anywhere on the course. (When he's on a break)

Yes that's one way of looking at it which is mostly the employee view point however employers usually have a different view towards it. It's what's deemed reasonable, in his case they obviously think it's not (for whatever reason it is) therefore the call for change.

Like I said you can argue endlessly about it, at the end of the day he has to quit smoking during working hours or there may be negative consequences.

[mynameis]

Despite being a non-smoker (never have, never will) I have to disagree. As long as it doesn't affect his work performance I'd disagree. If he's smoking while he works, in an area that is not designated smoke-free, it should have absolutely no bearing.

As for no statutory breaks, I find this unbelievable. My brief amount of research on the subject (2 minutes on google) appears to lay the blame at the feet of the 'evil National government' and the 1991 ECA. However, I note that the 'friends of the workers party' Labour didn't much care to reintroduce the award with the 2000 ERA.

Fortunately I'm self-employed, skilled and in demand so I take my breaks when I damned well feel like it. But even before becoming self-employed I made sure I had all the breaks I needed and if anyone had attempted to tell me not to, they'd have been told to get stuffed. I can't believe anyone would agree to working without breaks.

Carefully read the question again:

Is it reasonable for someone to smoke at work during working hours (for when you're getting paid) ? Answer is NO.

In his case what is questionable here is "at work" which in this case is his usual place of work, which is the golf course. Although you are permitted to smoke at the course it is definitely not ok to smoke while working. It's pretty simple really. Almost a no brainer.

I'll give you an example, a tour guide is out and about with his group showing people around, would it be ok for him to light a fag while his doing that? NO.

[awayatc]

Interesting that research shows that abstinence from smoking may increase your life but abstinence from sex (guys) may decrease it. :bleh:Maybe you need to do more of the other at work instead.

no need swapping jobs......
just swap buts.....:buggerd:

Wel I could imagine somebody being forced to give up smoking cold turkey (been there)....could suffer-lets say- "bowel issues".....and therefor has to visit the toilet hourly.(not just any old tree....)
Leaving a whiff of evidence shouldn't be to hard.....
Nor finding a medical certificate to back it....

They lose a lot more "productive" time then when you were smoking.......

[cowboyz]

Ok firstly, do you have a copy of your contract with your employer?
Secondly did it say it was just a "Notice" or does it say something else?

it is a memo.


Mid 80's is good mate ! Have you done the full apprenticeship and are a fully qualified green keeper?

Have you looked at the Auckland market, good money over here is what I hear?? I take it you wouldn't move here :)

not a hope in hell. I would get eaten alive up there in the big smoke.



I'll give you an example, a tour guide is out and about with his group showing people around, would it be ok for him to light a fag while his doing that? NO.

that is a good clear example why they have no case to answer over this. Thanks. Off to a smoke-free workday now, (excluding breaks where I will smoke like a train).

[Pascal]

I got a job working outside so I could smoke all day to my hearts content. Now the rules have changed without notice. Again, if EVERYONE was stopped smoking I would have less of a problem with it. But having a group of guys smoking around you and your not allowed to gets irritating really fast.

It does. I'm in the process of giving up at the moment and the guy that sits next to me smokes; so everytime he wanders back in reeking of nicotine I want to lick his face to get at that delicious nectar. I don't care that he has cheek folds and a moustache, I just fucking need nicotine. You know?

At least my employer's not being an asshole about it; they let us smoke if / when we need it.

Anyway, I'm using "The easy way to give up smoking" (Or something like that) It's a damn good book and seems as if it's pointing me in the right direction at least.

If you are tempted to quit, might be worth putting it as a challenge. See which of us manages to actually do it. And of course there'd be a bit of mutual support, encouragement, etc. if you're keen.

If not, no worries and good luck with fighting your employer.

[Max Preload]

Carefully read the question again:

Is it reasonable for someone to smoke at work during working hours (for when you're getting paid) ? Answer is NO.

In his case what is questionable here is "at work" which in this case is his usual place of work, which is the golf course. Although you are permitted to smoke at the course it is definitely not ok to smoke while working. It's pretty simple really. Almost a no brainer.

I'll give you an example, a tour guide is out and about with his group showing people around, would it be ok for him to light a fag while his doing that? NO.

I read and understood the question perfectly well the first time, thanks, but it's your answer I disagree with because you offer no argument, just a simple NO. So, why NO? Does his smoking during work hours affect his work performance? No, I don't see that it does. Does it make him less productive? No, I don't see that it does since he's still working while smoking, not stopping for the duration. Is it illegal to smoke there? No, it isn't. Would you put up with being told you can't have a drink while you're working despite how thirsty you are or you can't use the toilet until your break. I know I wouldn't.

Oh, and he's not a tour guide.

[Swoop]

I was speaking to the dept of labour and as of 1st april it will be law that you are to have a 10 min break every 2 hours worked and a half hour unpaid lunch break if work more than 5.5 hours.

So I got 2 weeks to work until I get a afternoon smoke break.

This has just been released.


Rest and meal breaks
Employees will be entitled to:
· one paid 10-minute rest break if their work period is between two and four hours;

· one paid 10-minute rest break and one unpaid 30-minute meal break if their work period is between four and six hours;

· two paid 10-minute rest breaks and one unpaid 30-minute meal break if their work period is between six and eight hours.

If more than an eight hour period is worked, these requirements automatically extend to cover the additional hours on the same basis.

The timing of rest and meal breaks is flexible and can follow any arrangement agreed between employer and employee.

If an agreement can't be reached, the rest and meal breaks should be spread evenly throughout the work period.

For more information, visit:
www.ers.govt.nz/relationships/breaks.html

[mikeey01]

it is a memo..

Great, that's what I hoped!
Now your contact (I hope you have a copy). Let me know.
Look through for smoking during working hours clause, also if there is a clause that reads something like the following.


Lots have mentioned about agreements/contracts ect..ect.. If there's a simple clause in his contract which states "you will follow all reasonable instructions laid out by the employer" .

This is a hard one to argue when it comes to fair and reasonable instruction, must one understand the inclusion and intent of this in any contract. It cannot be used as a blanket clause in this manner.
The intent of the ERA, it's flavour and fairness to all parties must firstly be applied, to use this as a blanket fix all, or perhaps reasoning to prevent a smoke whilst mowing lawns on a tractor... mmm I would say it would not even last an hour in front of an adjudicator!

I think there has already been a test case, very close to this one, not same but nearly, I haven't found it yet.

[Finn]

I work outside.

My workplace have decided I am not allowed to smoke during working hours.


The answer is very simple my friend and is much better for you and actually tastes delicious.

Introducing Snus. No, it's not chewing tobacco, it pure tobacco in a tiny wee pouch much like a little tea bag that you place under your lip. Rather than stinky, harmful smoke, it slowly releases tobacco into your system.

Think of all the benefits... No more stink. People don't look at you like your're a kiddie fiddler, you can enjoy them at work, in shops, in restaurants and even on planes.

And get this... the are not harmful. The Swedish Government demanded warning labels but the tobacco companies said prove that Snus causes harm and sure we will... end result, no warning label.

So go forth and be free my friend. PM me for supply...

I'm doing some work with our new Government on this...

[Oakie]

How the fuck does smoking count as a disability, WHEN YOU START AND CONTINUE TO POISON YOURSELF BY CHOICE, in the face of common sense and medical science..

'Smoking' is not the disability. 'Addiction' is.

[Oakie]

Are you on an individual employment agreement or a collective agreement?
either way any thing stated in the employment agreement can't be changed or have addition of clauses without agreement of all parties. If it's a collective agreement there has to be a detail on how an existing agreement can be changed.
Going to be a bit of paperwork shuffling for them :lol:

Unless it is something that is demanded by law. If a contract is silent on a subject that is covered by legislation then the legislation is still binding whether or not the contract mentions it.

[bully]

suss out your work mates, who cares who doesnt. some non smokers wouldnt care. and whos gunna know if your on the other side of the course. just keep an eye out for ass holes. if your with others smoking, the public, join in, if a ass hole comes over, throw it on the ground say, it wasnt me prove it.
just be sly about it.
like some one else said, you get a lot of warnings first, so no biggie,.
good luck.

[mynameis]

I read and understood the question perfectly well the first time, thanks, but it's your answer I disagree with because you offer no argument, just a simple NO. So, why NO? Does his smoking during work hours affect his work performance? No, I don't see that it does.

Does it make him less productive? No, I don't see that it does since he's still working while smoking, not stopping for the duration. Is it illegal to smoke there? No, it isn't. Would you put up with being told you can't have a drink while you're working despite how thirsty you are or you can't use the toilet until your break. I know I wouldn't.

Oh, and he's not a tour guide.

Mate like I said before this case is SO SIMPLE it's a no brainer and if you really can't see through it I don't know what else to say.

You're comparing the basic necessities like drink and toilet breaks to smoking. You must be kidding yourself.

Yes I haven't reasoned things out because I think most people would be able to work simple things out themselves but you have drawn a few conclusions very quickly. How do you know it doesn't affect his performance??

When I say most people would be able to work simple reasons out themselves, here's one for you to think about:

Is it safe to smoke a cigarette while operating a machine (mower) which has petrol and if he accidentally drops it in the wrong place, a few small things can go wrong.

And there's probably some other good reasons why his employer is implementing it, which I don't have time to get into.

Like I said before it's a pretty simple case and any sensible employee will take measures (irrespective of how addicted you are to smoking - been there done that) to follow a simple guideline.

It would be silly for anyone to argue endlessly and run the risk of losing your job. I am happy I have a job in this current economic situation.

[TerminalAddict]

as swoop has already mentioned, rest breaks are now law.
10 min break every 2 hours, and a minimum 30 min break every 4 hours

The change to non-smoking policy, is a policy change, not a unilateral contract change, unless smoking is specifically mentioned in your contract.

Start claiming your rights to breaks.

Go through the 7 "rules" and see if they relate directly to clauses in your contract, if they do, then you have recourse, and this is negotiable and cannot be unilateral.

I'm a smoker, and every now and then get complaints like "you smokers are always going outside". I point out that we (the smokers) smoke at 10am, 3pm, and whenever the fuck we want in our lunch break, if other in the organisation chose not to have a morning or afternoon break that is their choice, but not mine .. I take my breaks.

also, As already mentioned, the smokefree laws can only be enforceable if the entire place is declared smoke free, public place or not, an owner has a right to declare their place of employment completely smokefree. Most hospital grounds, for instance, are 100% smokefree now, even outside ... no smoking on the grounds anywhere.

you are entitled to get off your mower at your legally entitled break times, and smoke anywhere outside, although if you suspect this will create a fight, don't smoke on the mower, as vehicles can be specifically identified a "work places" .. the fact that they are outside, and don't have a cabin doesn't matter .. it's a vehicle.

If this is directly targeted at you, as you suspect, then start documenting things. You may be looking at constructive dismissal, and therefore an exit package ... have a years salary in the bank, is just as good as having a years employment.

Don't be afraid to use the words "personal grievance".
Just because you use the words, doesn't mean you have to actually use the method. Often the use of the words has a remarkable effect on the situation.

Consider what it is the employer is trying to achieve. Put yourself in their shoes for a day, and truly examine what their motivation is. Doing this will allow you to build a much stronger case, and will often reveal some "aces" that you can store up your sleeve when you hit the negotiating table.

Take your time, you have time on your side. you generally have 90 days to respond to anything an employer does. ... go home have a beer or 3, sleep a couple of nights, then respond, otherwise you will get emotionally involved and cock it up.

TA.

[HenryDorsetCase]

Interesting attitude right there. I, as an employer would not approve a paid 10 min an hour smoke break either, but I sure as shit would not dismiss a smoker as a potential employee either. Heard of discrimination have you?

Yes I have as it happens. I acknowledge that my libertarian tendencies would seem to be at odds with this. I acknowledge that is contradictory. Lets put it down to me watching my mother die of lung cancer aged 42 when I was 17. It kind of put me off smoking somewhat. My employees, my call.

[TerminalAddict]

.... My employees, my call.

just don't get caught saying that out loud ... :whistle:

[cowboyz]

This has just been released.


[B]Rest and meal breaks
www.ers.govt.nz/relationships/breaks.html

that is all good but doesnt come into effect till 1 april. 2 weeks away.


Great, that's what I hoped!
Now your contact (I hope you have a copy). Let me know.
Look through for smoking during working hours clause, also if there is a clause that reads something like the following.



This is a hard one to argue when it comes to fair and reasonable instruction, must one understand the inclusion and intent of this in any contract. It cannot be used as a blanket clause in this manner.
The intent of the ERA, it's flavour and fairness to all parties must firstly be applied, to use this as a blanket fix all, or perhaps reasoning to prevent a smoke whilst mowing lawns on a tractor... mmm I would say it would not even last an hour in front of an adjudicator!

I think there has already been a test case, very close to this one, not same but nearly, I haven't found it yet.

There is not but there is a clause that says I will abide by club policies and they have the right to change to policies at will.


suss out your work mates, who cares who doesnt. good luck.
Unfortunately, I am the only one who smokes. there are 3 of us and 1 of the others assaulted me (which started all this and the manager is sticking up for him including denying the assualt and taking no action against him after an "internal"investigation. The other guy is so far up the others arse that I cant figure out where one ends and the other starts.


as swoop has already mentioned, rest breaks are now law.
10 min break every 2 hours, and a minimum 30 min break every 4 hours

The change to non-smoking policy, is a policy change, not a unilateral contract change, unless smoking is specifically mentioned in your contract.

Start claiming your rights to breaks.

Go through the 7 "rules" and see if they relate directly to clauses in your contract, if they do, then you have recourse, and this is negotiable and cannot be unilateral.

TA.

As above, that law doesnt come in for 2 weeks. And there is a clause in my contract that says they can set policy whenever they want.

Oh, and rest assured, I am looking for another job. Its not easy though.

[Max Preload]

Unless it is something that is demanded by law. If a contract is silent on a subject that is covered by legislation then the legislation is still binding whether or not the contract mentions it.

And the policy that the OP's employer is attempting to implement is not demanded by law.


Mate like I said before this case is SO SIMPLE it's a no brainer and if you really can't see through it I don't know what else to say.

I see. So you're actually only trying to simplify a complex issue, not actually think about and address all aspects of the situation. Righto!


You're comparing the basic necessities like drink and toilet breaks to smoking. You must be kidding yourself.

I think it is you who is kidding himself. It's pretty evident from the addiction aspect that, to a smoker, nicotine is a neccessity.


Yes I haven't reasoned things out because I think most people would be able to work simple things out themselves but you have drawn a few conclusions very quickly. How do you know it doesn't affect his performance??

How do you know it does? Give us an example of how it would impede his work performance in this vocation. It isn't mind altering like alcohol or dope so he isn't going to be mentally or physically impaired. Either his performance in his job is adequate or it is not and since there has been no mention of any performance concerns raised which are in any way attributable to smoking, we can safely assume his smoking does not impact on his performance. It seems you're seeing things that simply are not there for the sake of your purely speculative argument.


When I say most people would be able to work simple reasons out themselves, here's one for you to think about:

Is it safe to smoke a cigarette while operating a machine (mower) which has petrol and if he accidentally drops it in the wrong place, a few small things can go wrong.

Yes, quite safe. Do you actually realise how hard petrol is to ignite? And considering the proximity of mower petrol tanks to the plug lead which can jump to adjacent metal parts providing a spark of sufficient temperature to actually ignite petrol, the risk posed by someone smoking in such a well ventilated environment as a mower is commonly used is considerably lower risk. However, I'm sure he doesn't spend all day, every day, around flammable liquids or vapours so your point is... well, once again, speculative at best.


And there's probably some other good reasons why his employer is implementing it, which I don't have time to get into.

Translation: you're weak and not prepared to stand up for yourself and your rights so you do whatever you're told regardless. You have my sympathy. It's terrible to live on your knees.


Like I said before it's a pretty simple case and any sensible employee will take measures (irrespective of how addicted you are to smoking - been there done that) to follow a simple guideline.

It's not a simple case at all, unless perhaps you are yourself somewhat simple and can only see one small PoV.


It would be silly for anyone to argue endlessly and run the risk of losing your job. I am happy I have a job in this current economic situation.

Well, if you feel the need to suck up to tyrants to allay your own personal security fears, feel free to do so at your own peril. Don't expect everyone else to blindly follow your "Yes, Sir" attitude though.

[3umph]

I for one would not hire another smoker... the last one I hired took advantage of a lot of my time rolling ciggs and smoking them...

not while I was around as he only did that in his breaks which I did not have a problem with, but as soon as I had to shoot out then he would instantly roll up and head out for a smoke... and that could be many times a day... wasting my time... it does not sound like much time but add it up over a week and that's quite a bit of time and money wasted on the employers side...

I also had a no smoking in my vehicle and when out onsite working but that was not adhered to as I got quite a bit of feedback from customers regarding it...

As an employer you want what you do portrayed by your employees as good as you can and having a smoke hanging out of ones mouth is not a good look especially for being in a public place... also the non smoking patrons/customers should not have to put up with it happening around them either...
As an employer what the difference between someone having a smoke or a non smoker having a coffee when they feel like it out of the normal breaks???

I'm not anti smoking as I don't really give a shit if you want to ruin your health and over the years had heaps of secondary smoke in my lungs... my wife's a smoker so I have to put up with it but she respects me and others when it come to her smoking...

If there are other problems at your work as you say then I suggest another job would be on the cards... and if it is that bad you may need to get advice about a personal grievance against your employer (dam did I say that)...

I can see why your employer does not want you to smoke during work hours but I think that is only a small part of your problem at your workplace

[cowboyz]

I have only been greenkeeping for 3-4 years. Before that I was sharemilking a dairy herd. I hired this non-smoker once and he was useless. Couldnt get the hang of anything, always late, got tired easily, never had a spare smoke in his pocket when I run out............

Think about it.

As another side point. Even in all the arguments and shitfighting that has been going on my empolyers and their lawyer have spouted on about how I am a skilled valued member of the staff. If his mate, (my boss) hadnt hit me then all this wouldnt have be an issue cause this is a direct result of that. It even says so at the top of the memo.

[Nasty]

I have only been greenkeeping for 3-4 years. Before that I was sharemilking a dairy herd. I hired this non-smoker once and he was useless. Couldnt get the hang of anything, always late, got tired easily, never had a spare smoke in his pocket when I run out............

Think about it.

As another side point. Even in all the arguments and shitfighting that has been going on my empolyers and their lawyer have spouted on about how I am a skilled valued member of the staff. If his mate, (my boss) hadnt hit me then all this wouldnt have be an issue cause this is a direct result of that. It even says so at the top of the memo.

So how long they been trying to get rid of you ... cos that is what it sounds like. If that is the case, then employment law should stand on your side - e.g. constructed dismissal - personal grievance .. whatever you like to call it.

[Max Preload]

If his mate, (my boss) hadnt hit me then all this wouldnt have be an issue cause this is a direct result of that. It even says so at the top of the memo.

Say what now? :confused:

[mynameis]

Haha you've really confirmed to me and the participants of this thread what I had been thinking. I've come across a few Cowboys who think they know it all but in all reality they know next to nothing about Employment Law/HR issues.

I see. So you're actually only trying to simplify a complex issue, not actually think about and address all aspects of the situation. Righto!

The reason why I am trying to simplify it for him is because he is a Green Keeper not an HR person and most people tend to go all complex in situations like this and their analysis most times aren't accurate and irrelevant, like we are seeing right now.

I think it is you who is kidding himself. It's pretty evident from the addiction aspect that, to a smoker, nicotine is a neccessity.

Employers aren't there to provide for someone's nicotine addiction, again it's simple you're getting paid to work not smoke cigarettes.

How do you know it does? Give us an example of how it would impede his work performance in this vocation. It isn't mind altering like alcohol or dope so he isn't going to be mentally or physically impaired. Either his performance in his job is adequate or it is not and since there has been no mention of any performance concerns raised which are in any way attributable to smoking, we can safely assume his smoking does not impact on his performance. It seems you're seeing things that simply are not there for the sake of your purely speculative argument.

I thought most intelligent people would be able to figure this out but for your sake I will give you a simple obvious/no brainer example. He is a Green Keeper at a Golf Course, a practical labour job which requires the use of both his hands, mow the green, operate machinery ect..ect..

If he smokes 2 cigarettes an hour, 5 mins each then he has wasted 10 mins per hour so in an 8 hour day that equates to 1 hour 20 mins of employers time during which he is getting paid and is suppose to be working not smoking.

If A doesn't stack up you don't safely assume B is right, so it's not a speculative argument but assuming smoking doesn't affect his work is.

Yes, quite safe. Do you actually realise how hard petrol is to ignite? And considering the proximity of mower petrol tanks to the plug lead which can jump to adjacent metal parts providing a spark of sufficient temperature to actually ignite petrol, the risk posed by someone smoking in such a well ventilated environment as a mower is commonly used is considerably lower risk. However, I'm sure he doesn't spend all day, every day, around flammable liquids or vapours so your point is... well, once again, speculative at best.

Haha again very laughable mate if you say it is quite safe to smoke cigarettes and operate machinery. Certainly isn't a common practise in this and most developed countries for obvious reasons but some people can and will act smart and try to prove otherwise.

Translation: you're weak and not prepared to stand up for yourself and your rights so you do whatever you're told regardless. You have my sympathy. It's terrible to live on your knees.

Wrong translation again it's not your right to smoke at work during working hours. Not sure what world you're still in. But what I can say is if you have that silly attitude at work (in his case) you will get shot down very quickly and easily. If anything he'll shoot himself in the foot if he listens to your advice.

It's not a simple case at all, unless perhaps you are yourself somewhat simple and can only see one small PoV.

It really is as simple as no smoking during working hours mate, but some people won't get it.

Well, if you feel the need to suck up to tyrants to allay your own personal security fears, feel free to do so at your own peril. Don't expect everyone else to blindly follow your "Yes, Sir" attitude though.

A filthy, silly, rebellious and stupid attitude to simple things doesn't take you far, long term. If someone carries on they'll soon find themselves saying "The world isn't fair, everyone's against me". And referring to your employer as Tyrants...well need I say more.

So to sum things up you're saying it perfectly fine for him to smoke at work during working hours and that his Employers (Golf Club's) employment lawyer who they have engaged is wrong and so are the rest of the posters on this thread.

Peace, Bless :D I take my hat off at your intelligence and advice.

[Skyryder]

I think you need to consult and employment lawyer. Don't go with a consultant.

They may be cheaper but in the long run it may cost you more. emplyment policy can not be made by your immediate boss. it must come from the organisation. Basicly if there are no minutes on this you may be able to go for a PG. If you can make a connection with the alleged assault and the so called policy change you may be able to get something from this.

Bottomline you need to figure out if you still want to keep working for this company or not.

Your solicitor will be able to estabilsh if the police carried out a proper investigation of your alledged assault.

Keep ya mouth shut and go see a solicitor or some free legal help.


Skyryder

[cowboyz]

Bottomline you need to figure out if you still want to keep working for this company or not.
Skyryder

I think my wife/kids/mortgage/bank have decided for me that I am to keep working until I get another job.

I am in limbo at the moment, doing nothing.

Was avoiding people at 3.55pm this arvo cause I hadnt had a break or a smoke since 1 and was feeling a little twitchy. In 2 weeks I WILL be stopping at 3 for a smoke.

[cowboyz]

I thought most intelligent people would be able to figure this out but for your sake I will give you a simple obvious/no brainer example. He is a Green Keeper at a Golf Course, a practical labour job which requires the use of both his hands, mow the green, operate machinery ect..ect..

If he smokes 2 cigarettes an hour, 5 mins each then he has wasted 10 mins per hour so in an 8 hour day that equates to 1 hour 20 mins of employers time during which he is getting paid and is suppose to be working not smoking.


actually. you have much more control over the mowers if you drive with one hand. I am not taking the piss either. Everyone drives one handed. Funny enough, even though I am right handed I drive left handed. The reason for this is that it is much much easier to drive in a striaght line if you are driving one handed. So y right hand doesnt do fuckall all day anyhow.

[The Pastor]

wah wah wah your a dirty smoker.

Give me a break, the man can smoke if he wants to, take your anti smoking bullshit and piss off.


In your situation I dont think they are allowed to ban your smoking - but they have. I would not smoke, as you dont want to get fired. Abide by the new policy and look for a new job.

[Scouse]

to make it clear, the course is not smoke free. Just the empolyees, and being the only smoker on staff means just me.

There is a HUGE backstory that goes with this that I wont go into but rest assured that this rule is just to pick on me as a backlash for past events.

No it is not a condition of employment that I dont smoke. I smoked before I started working there and have been working there for over 3 years.

I got a notice today that says lots of stuff but it is just this point that has the biggest effect on me that I want a way out of striaght away.

4. Smoking. No smoking during paid working hours. Smoking is permitted during your breaks only.

These rules are not optional but will be adhered to by all staff.

There are 7 rules all together, the others I can argue in time. Working without smoking gets me wound up pretty quick though.

This notice was given to me this morning.I see nothing wrong with these rules. I usually don't take smokers on when I hire new staff as most take the piss by having ciggie breaks outside there normal rostered tea and meal breaks. This causes problems with non smoking staff as the see the smokers having extra un-rostered breaks.

[SixPackBack]

Fuck my heart bleeds custard for you bro'...after burying two friends, seeing my dad have a heart attack ALL from smoking I kinda think your work place is doing you a HUGE favour. Unfortunately your addiction to the evil weed is clouding your judgement so pervasively you fail to see what a golden opportunity hey have presented you.....you know like:

Not dying at a young age.[that's a good one]
Keeping your looks. [smoking and crack addiction share a similar effect on a persons attractiveness]
Getting and keeping a decent erection. [even young ex smokers like myself know the effects!]
Not smelling like the mouth of a camel.
Saving a shit load of money.

I could go on but you get the message......lose the hate, realise your employer is giving you a golden opportunity and wisen up-get rid of the habit

[cowboyz]

Fuck my heart bleeds custard for you bro'...after burying two friends, seeing my dad have a heart attack ALL from smoking I kinda think your work place is doing you a HUGE favour. Unfortunately your addiction to the evil weed is clouding your judgement so pervasively you fail to see what a golden opportunity hey have presented you.....you know like:

Not dying at a young age.[that's a good one]too late for that!
Keeping your looks. [smoking and crack addiction share a similar effect on a persons attractiveness]and that
Getting and keeping a decent erection. [even young ex smokers like myself know the effects!]hold on, just got to consult my wife, she is a woman so complains about alot but dont recall that falling into the arguments........
Not smelling like the mouth of a camel.camels dont smell that bad.
Saving a shit load of money.
I dont think it would save me any money. I would just spend it on other shit like porn and hookers. In fact, smoking is helping me keep my marriage together cause my wife is not very happy about me hiring hookers.
I could go on but you get the message......lose the hate, realise your employer is giving you a golden opportunity and wisen up-get rid of the habit

I have lost a few friends to bikes on the road. Sell your bike now to save heartache for your friends.

[piston broke]

being a smoker of 30yrs,and havin one now as i type,i say get over it.
if you can't do 2-3hrs without a smoke, you're a winna.
p.s i'm damn near a chain smoker,but if my livelyhood depends on it,and it has,a few hrs is fuk all.
get over it.it is what it is.And it won't do you any harm.
don't give them any excuse to lay you off before you are ready to go.
handle the jandle.

[cowboyz]

while I agree that if this is legal and they can do it then I will suck it up and live with it, my original question was if it was legal cause it would piss me off to find out in a years time that I was within my rights to fight this clause.

Past 2 days I have not smoked during working hours. Find I chain smoke during lunch though.

[SixPackBack]

I have lost a few friends to bikes on the road. Sell your bike now to save heartache for your friends.

...........Addicts are masters at justifying poor life choices-turning the conversation around etc.......make some excuses to drop the habit bro':Punk:

[cowboyz]

oh, ok. I going to give up smoking now. Thanks. I feel much better already

[piston broke]

while I agree that if this is legal and they can do it then I will suck it up and live with it, my original question was if it was legal cause it would piss me off to find out in a years time that I was within my rights to fight this clause.

Past 2 days I have not smoked during working hours. Find I chain smoke during lunch though.

you're onto it,but don't worry about in a years time.
yep i do the same when i can't smoke all day,2 smokes at smoko's and 3 at lunch.
it's not all bad,just keep busy,and think of the $ you ARE saving.
it's all good,you just have to think of it that way.
best of luck to you.
just think how happy your lady will be not lickin an ashtray.

just give up,there ain't no good that comes of smokin.
own your destiny

[cowboyz]

my lady smokes 3 fold what I do!

Well alot more than that cause I am a non smoker now.

Smoke free for 7 mins and counting!

[reofix]

Give it the fuck away!!!!

[Nasty]

It seems really strange that everyone is so focused on the smoking .. and not really noticed that your boss hit you .. or the other things and hints in here ... is that what you said he hit you??? ...

It sounds like they are building a case to get rid of you in a very sly manner hence earlier post on constructed dismissal ... then again I may not have read that and made it up ... if so that's cool .. I been smokefree for 8 years and counting ... but I used the patches to quit.

[reofix]

chances are you are a fuck up on wheels... why would a boss want to lose a hardworking profitable employee... no sense to that

[cowboyz]

It seems really strange that everyone is so focused on the smoking .. and not really noticed that your boss hit you .. or the other things and hints in here ... is that what you said he hit you??? ...

It sounds like they are building a case to get rid of you in a very sly manner hence earlier post on constructed dismissal ... then again I may not have read that and made it up ... if so that's cool .. I been smokefree for 8 years and counting ... but I used the patches to quit.

what I find strange is everyone is concentrating on the smokng itself rather than the question at hand (which has been answered by a couple) that it is a priniciple of restrictive rights rather than the smoking.

and yes and no. It was my manager that hit me and the boss covered it up and claimed no fault for my manager because they are claiming that I assaulted him with grass seed which I deny but anyhow, apparently if all is believed to be true, I threw grass seed at my manager and he whacked me round the back of the legs with a rake and that is ok. I was off work for 9 days on medical leave and then suspended on pay for 3 weeks till they got their story sorted out and they found that I was hit with a rake but lack of evidence to support that I threw grass seed at my manager so no action will be taken to either party.

Now they are being a pain in the arse.

So yeah, there is a bakground story and I do feel like I have been unfairly treated but until I find another job there is fuckall I can do about it.

[piston broke]

my lady smokes 3 fold what I do!

Well alot more than that cause I am a non smoker now.

Smoke free for 7 mins and counting!

good man,
you know you can do it.
i'm here if you need some support.
best of luck

[reofix]

shortland street replay ... get over it!!

[cowboyz]

chances are you are a fuck up on wheels... why would a boss want to lose a hardworking profitable employee... no sense to that

hmmmm.

I am very good at my job.

I have been working with grass for a very long time.

Unfortunately I have pissed them off because I laid police charges against my manager and that didnt get well recieved (no shit sherlock)
They wont fire me. They would be right up a creek if they do because even in the findings of their internal investigation that found I was assaulted but not enough to warrent action against the accused they say that I am very god at my job. (it actually says we are both very good at our jobs)

[cowboyz]

shortland street replay ... get over it!!

feel free to pop down anytime you want and I will give you a wrap with a spare rake I got lying round and see how you fucking like it.

fuck off muppet.

[piston broke]

well,time to shake the dude's hand and walk away.
till you have a new job at least

[reofix]

probably laying charges against your boss sort of ruled you out of employee of the month... just a guess

[Oakie]

probably laying charges against your boss sort of ruled you out of employee of the month... just a guess

Just like having a boss hit him with a rake probably means he won't be nominating them for this year's 'Best Workplace' awards.

Interesting. A fella left our employ recently 'just' for sending threatening texts to a workmate. No actual assault took place. Perspective.

[Owl]

Just like having a boss hit him with a rake probably means he won't be nominating them for this year's 'Best Workplace' awards.

Interesting. A fella left our employ recently 'just' for sending threatening texts to a workmate. No actual assault took place. Perspective.

We had an employee dismissed after he was assaulted by a co-worker. Boss has a habit of being a moron, only this time it cost him several grand. I don’t think I was very popular either when I laughed like fuck at hearing the outcome.:rolleyes:

[reofix]

a couple of k is cheap to get rid of a retard in your operation... happily pay many times that in the right circumstances... bad employees are very expensive pieces of crap to have around

[3umph]

bad employees are very expensive pieces of crap to have around

thats for real

[mynameis]

while I agree that if this is legal and they can do it then I will suck it up and live with it, my original question was if it was legal cause it would piss me off to find out in a years time that I was within my rights to fight this clause.

Past 2 days I have not smoked during working hours. Find I chain smoke during lunch though.







what I find strange is everyone is concentrating on the smokng itself rather than the question at hand (which has been answered by a couple) that it is a priniciple of restrictive rights rather than the smoking.



Alright Pal, there's been a lot of rubbish on this thread. Leaving behind all the malarkey, contracts, employment/human rights, employment law, past issues ect ect..deal with what you have on hand at the moment.

Rest assured the advice given previously by myself is correct (given the info you have supplied). So without getting too complicated with all of the above here's how you need to view it:

Your employer has given a simple instruction that you are not to smoke during working hours however if you smoke during your breaks that's totally fine.

So your working hours is the time you are getting PAID to do your job and it's actually the employer's time as well, as they are paying you to be there to do something.

Therefore they can and have the right to dictate what you will be doing during these paid hours and what you WON'T be doing (instructions to carry out your duty reasonably) which in this case in your employer's opinion is without a fag in your mouth during working hours. Whether you're a Green Keeper or a CEO it doesn't matter, every employee at the end of the day is accountable.

Hope that helps, anything else fire away :)

[BMWST?]

I was off work for 9 days on medical leave and then

medical leave?Doctors certificate?What does it say about (cause) of injury.Is it equitable(or reasonable force) to strike someone with a rake,vs throw grass seed.That is NOT reasonable

[Kemet]

to make it clear, the course is not smoke free. Just the empolyees, and being the only smoker on staff means just me.

There is a HUGE backstory that goes with this that I wont go into but rest assured that this rule is just to pick on me as a backlash for past events.



This notice was given to me this morning.


Just like having a boss hit him with a rake probably means he won't be nominating them for this year's 'Best Workplace' awards.

Interesting. A fella left our employ recently 'just' for sending threatening texts to a workmate. No actual assault took place. Perspective.

Aggravated (??) assault. As long as the receiver felt that the threats would be carried out, that the guy would do what he said he would do in the texts, it counts.


hmmmm.

I am very good at my job.

I have been working with grass for a very long time.

Unfortunately I have pissed them off because I laid police charges against my manager and that didnt get well recieved (no shit sherlock)
They wont fire me. They would be right up a creek if they do because even in the findings of their internal investigation that found I was assaulted but not enough to warrent action against the accused they say that I am very god at my job. (it actually says we are both very good at our jobs)

No actual assault my arse!! Assault is assault. If a guy can get taken to court for flicking his childs' ear ... well nuff said!!

When they don't have grounds to fire you without it being unfair dismissal it always comes down to them saying "they are both good at their jobs" crap.

As Nasty said earlier... it's sounding more and more like Constructive Dismissal. Been there before myself but was too young and didn't have the balls to stand up for myself and left even though it meant going on the dole.


In my current job at Port Otago we have two unions available. I, personally am in the Maritime Union. In each of my last two jobs I was given an opportunity to join a union. At Cadbury's it is the Service and Food Workers Union (SFWU) and they are damn good. At BP we had EPMU available. I don't know if you qualify, but I think your best bet if you aren't in a union already (sorry haven't read all the posts on this thread to see if you are as the thread has gotten quite sizable...), would be to try the EPMU. Here is a link to their "Guide to Rights" (http://www.epmu.org.nz/guide-to-rights/) page.

In the meantime, I hope for your sanity, as much as anything else, you a quietly looking for another job so that when you walk out of this one, you have another to walk into (which is likely, no disrespect to you, but I hope you wouldn't stay in a job causing you as much stress as this one is - not worth shortening your life [further???:confused:]).

As a side.. I don't smoke and do get a little bummed at times when the other guys at work, that do smoke, bugger off for one out the back when it aint break time. Other times I just go with them figuring as long as I'm upwind I may as well have a break with 'em. Fairs, fair. Same perks for everyone smoker or not. None of them have complained when I hang with them, whether it's because they don't mind or just don't wanna get in the shit with the boss,:doh: I don't know.... or care....

[Owl]

a couple of k is cheap to get rid of a retard in your operation... happily pay many times that in the right circumstances... bad employees are very expensive pieces of crap to have around

You know nothing other than the very basics I posted. So as you know fuck all about it, do as cowboyz suggested!!!

[MSTRS]

As Nasty said earlier... it's sounding more and more like Constructive Dismissal.

Actually, she said (twice) Constructed Dismissal. Typo? Or a subtle, but important, difference?
I read her to mean that the grounds for dismissal were planned and manufactured, that CB' is being set-up to put himself in the gun.

[Beemer]

Most employers would not be happy with their workers popping out for a smoke every 30 minutes or so (as several women I worked with used to do) as it is during work time, not their breaks. I'm sorry, but if they don't allow you to down tools and make a coffee every time you feel like it, why should smoking be any different?

If they have changed your conditions of employment due to something in the past then get that addressed, but I do get tired of smokers expecting special treatment, which is what you appear to be asking for. Just because you work somewhere that allows smoking in public areas doesn't mean you should be allowed to smoke when you feel like it.

If you worked in an office or some other enclosed work space where smoking was not allowed, you'd have to get used to only smoking in your breaks. It looks to me like you're surrounded by people smoking in their leisure time and want to join them, which is not your employer's problem.

[3umph]

Most employers would not be happy with their workers popping out for a smoke every 30 minutes or so (as several women I worked with used to do) as it is during work time, not their breaks. I'm sorry, but if they don't allow you to down tools and make a coffee every time you feel like it, why should smoking be any different?

If they have changed your conditions of employment due to something in the past then get that addressed, but I do get tired of smokers expecting special treatment, which is what you appear to be asking for. Just because you work somewhere that allows smoking in public areas doesn't mean you should be allowed to smoke when you feel like it.

If you worked in an office or some other enclosed work space where smoking was not allowed, you'd have to get used to only smoking in your breaks. It looks to me like you're surrounded by people smoking in their leisure time and want to join them, which is not your employer's problem.

Well said:niceone:

[cowboyz]

Most employers would not be happy with their workers popping out for a smoke every 30 minutes or so (as several women I worked with used to do) as it is during work time, not their breaks. I'm sorry, but if they don't allow you to down tools and make a coffee every time you feel like it, why should smoking be any different?
because if I go have a coffee (which I dont actually drink) I do have to down tools and spend 15-30 mins not working.
If I have a smoke it takes 15 seconds to pick one out of my pocket and light it and I carry on working. There is a difference in the ammoount of work that gets down.

As a side point. It has kinda worked out a little counter-productive for them because now (and moreso in 2 weeks) I will be going to sit on my arse and have a smoke at my smoke breaks. Before I would just work through and grab a coke and store it on the mower and carry on working while smoking and drinking my coke.

If they have changed your conditions of employment due to something in the past then get that addressed, but I do get tired of smokers expecting special treatment, which is what you appear to be asking for. Just because you work somewhere that allows smoking in public areas doesn't mean you should be allowed to smoke when you feel like it.
again. as above. When it has no actual effect on the work either way and moreso a negative effect by making me stop working to smoke it doesnt make good sense to ban smoking for the sake of banning smoking. But they have so I take my 10 mins in the morning and half an hour at lunch and smoke. In 2 weeks I will be taking another 10 mins in the afternoon. Thats the hardest part of my day at the moment is working all afternoon without a smoke.
If you worked in an office or some other enclosed work space where smoking was not allowed, you'd have to get used to only smoking in your breaks. It looks to me like you're surrounded by people smoking in their leisure time and want to join them, which is not your employer's problem.

errr, there is a reason why I decided to work in a career that is outdoors. For 20 years I have been able to have a smoke whenever I feel like it. At 1 minutes notice I have now been told that I cant smoke whenever I feel like it. I might point out that for the last 3 days I have abided by the rules. If I knew they could demand anything at will I wouldn't have got a job earning $13/hr! I might as well have gone and worked in a factory for alot more.

[BiK3RChiK]

I think your employer is being unreasonable, Cowboyz. That said, since you are in this little pickle already, for coping mechanisms, have you tried chewing gum and listening to your fav music on an mp3 player whilst working? or are these things 'prohibited' too?

All the best working it out, eh..

[cowboyz]

i actually wear radio earmuffs (which are my own). They wouldnt dare banning those. The others all wear them too and the shit would hit the fan in a big way if they did that.

[Jerms]

But when you smoke it makes other people more tolerable.

With all due respect...maybe when you don't smoke, it makes you more tolerable to other people...stir stir...:dodge:

[Kemet]

Actually, she said (twice) Constructed Dismissal. Typo? Or a subtle, but important, difference?
I read her to mean that the grounds for dismissal were planned and manufactured, that CB' is being set-up to put himself in the gun.

Yeah... forgot to quote so I used the spelling I knew it by....

Might have to google it after I post this to see who's right:dodge: and/or if there are two different definitions to know it by which. I'm thinking we mean the same thing though.... :hug:

Cowboyz:

Firstly... Found out what EPMU stands for so that wasn't a great recommendation from me as to who to join. Stands for Engineering, Printing & Manufacturing Union. Somehow I don't think you would fit in this category still they may be able to point you in the right direction (unlike me......)

With regard to your comment about working through your break and just grabbing a drink/bite and fag to have as you go. May not be a good idea to mention if you take 'action' on the boss.

Even though you are choosing to work through your break is irrelevant. You are required by employment regulations to have a 15min break or breaks depending how long your shift is. Funny thing is that that you are NOT allowed to not have them. You can get in trouble as well as your boss.

At least I'm pretty sure that's how it works. If I find the reference will post it.

[Kemet]

found definition.....:doh:

Google link (http://www.google.co.nz/search?q=constructed+dismissal&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a)

to go by the number of results I'd say that would make a case for me being wrong on the spelling

Shock!! Horror!! Don't know how that happened!! I'm always right!!!!!!:whistle:

Department of Labour Link (http://www.ers.govt.nz/audienceinfo/employees.html\) for the employee section so we can all look up what ever we want to....

[<Rhino>]

I think your biggest problem is that you see this as public property as you state "its a public place" several times. Its not a public place nor public property, its a golf course so it must be owned by a club or board or some such thing - therefore they have the right to refuse entry to members of the public should they so desire and enforce rules or conduct on said property to you under your employment contract.

If they are not stopping you from smoking on breaks then I think they are well within their rights to do what they are doing - I think you may just have been lucky [like a perk] to have been aloud to smoke in the past - now their just enforcing the rules.

[cowboyz]

If they made the whole *place* smoke free. fine. But making me smokefree? Not so good. Surely there is a history (code of practice?? what you call it) that has to be acknowledged. In any case, I am not taking them to task over it. I actually enjoy smoking more now that I cant smokoe whenever I like. I have something to look forward to in my day.

I made it through the week without incident so thats something.

got told today they are also planning on introducing random drug testing.

Might have to go have a chat to a lawyer me thinks. I have huge human rights issues with this one.

[cowboyz]

Oh, and it is a public park, owned by the council. We cant stop people walking their dogs right through the middle of the golf course.

[mynameis]

If they made the whole *place* smoke free. fine. But making me smokefree? Not so good. Surely there is a history (code of practice?? what you call it) that has to be acknowledged. In any case, I am not taking them to task over it. I actually enjoy smoking more now that I cant smokoe whenever I like. I have something to look forward to in my day.

I made it through the week without incident so thats something.

got told today they are also planning on introducing random drug testing.

Might have to go have a chat to a lawyer me thinks. I have huge human rights issues with this one.

Good on ya !!


Oh, and it is a public park, owned by the council. We cant stop people walking their dogs right through the middle of the golf course.

Isn't that blady annoying !

[cowboyz]

Good on ya !!



Isn't that blady annoying !

yes it is! Spent half hour today picking dog shit out of a bunker.

That fucks you off. And I didnt get to have a smoke afterwards to console myself.

Its not all glamour!!

[nadroj]

I'll have one for ya!!!

Go get some of those lolly smokes & leave one in your mouth while working & see if you get a reaction....

[mynameis]

yes it is! Spent half hour today picking dog shit out of a bunker.

That fucks you off. And I didnt get to have a smoke afterwards to console myself.

Its not all glamour!!

Haha lol hang in there fella, remember if you spit the dummy you'll be the only loser. Good on you for making it this far. Another 2 weeks you'll be sweet. Don't give up without a fight, until you find a new job. Well done !!

[Oakie]

got told today they are also planning on introducing random drug testing.
.

This is paraphrased from an article I read. I've put a couple opf important points in bold

"You can introduce a policy of drug testing as a pre-employment check or if the employer has a 'reasonable suspicion' an employee is attending work under the influence of drugs and this has caused an accident or a 'near miss'. Random drug testing is harder. It can only be introduced for staff who work in 'safety sensitive areas'. Usually this means there must be a close connection between performing the duties of the particular employee's job under the influence of drugs/alcohol and operational safety. (Think driving a tractor towing a gang-mower possibly?.)

If you do want to introduce drug testing then you need employee consent to do so.

You need to include the right to drug test in each employee's employment agreement (or in a policy that the employment agreement says the employee must comply with).

If the employee refuses to consent to random drug testing, this may be grounds for disciplinary action against the employee but you cannot force the employee to undergo drug testing. Even if you decide not to introduce a drug testing policy, you can introduce a drug and alcohol policy that could help prevent people attending work under the influence of drugs/alcohol.

For example, your policy could state that drugs or alcohol are not permitted on your premises. Also, that employees are not permitted to attend work under the influence of drugs or alcohol and disciplinary action, including dismissal, might result if they do so. If you want to introduce a drug testing policy, the policy should explain the reasons for the policy, when testing will be carried out, the procedure for consent to testing, the consequences of refusing consent, the type of testing (breath/urine/blood) and the possibility of medical review of test results.

It is really important to note that your rights depend on the sort of work you are doing. 'Stoned in charge or a gang-mower or chainsaw' may justify drug testing but 'stoned in charge of a rake' may not.

[SixPackBack]

If they made the whole *place* smoke free. fine. But making me smokefree? Not so good. Surely there is a history (code of practice?? what you call it) that has to be acknowledged. In any case, I am not taking them to task over it. I actually enjoy smoking more now that I cant smokoe whenever I like. I have something to look forward to in my day.

I made it through the week without incident so thats something.

got told today they are also planning on introducing random drug testing.

Might have to go have a chat to a lawyer me thinks. I have huge human rights issues with this one.

Nicotine and drugs??..........time to clean-up the life style cowboyz.

[cowboyz]

I'll have one for ya!!!

Go get some of those lolly smokes & leave one in your mouth while working & see if you get a reaction....

Fuck that guy is hot!. I think I might be gay.



Nicotine and drugs??..........time to clean-up the life style cowboyz.

Hmmmm.. Actually, I barely even drink. I dont do drugs. Dont allow them in or around my home or lifestyle. But I object to the inferrance that I need to be drug tested. I guarentee I will past every drug/alcohol test. Thats not the point. The point is the idea that they can implement any policy because they said so.