Name 'the' cafe racer?

[Big Dave]

Just writing a bit and I need to cite an example.

Q: What is 'the' archetypal Cafe Racer Motorcycle?


My answer would be Manx Norton. Yours?



(archetypal |ˌärk(i)ˈtīpəl|
adjective
very typical of a certain kind of person or thing : the archetypal country doctor.
• recurrent as a symbol or motif in literature, art, or mythology )

[Taz]

Mine. No really mine.

Was it ever legal to ride a Manx Norton to a cafe??

[Big Dave]

Hmmm - I'm a Triumph guy - So what Norton do I mean then - big mutha 500 single.

[HenryDorsetCase]

Just writing a bit and I need to cite an example.

Q: What is 'the' archetypal Cafe Racer Motorcycle?


My answer would be Manx Norton. Yours?



(archetypal |ˌärk(i)ˈtīpəl|
adjective
very typical of a certain kind of person or thing : the archetypal country doctor.
• recurrent as a symbol or motif in literature, art, or mythology )

I disagree because the Norton Manx was a production bike, and to me, the cafe racer motorcycle has connotations of "home built" or "special" or custom"

the archetypal one would be the Triton. or a Tribsa, but my favourite and one of the coolest bikes I ahve ever seen in my life is that Norvin I saw in Melbourne that day. God I loved that bike.

That cafe racer style bike (lowered, performance modified, single seat with bumstop, rearsets, ace bars or clipons, big single headlight) today can be almost anything: a Honda CB750, a Yamaha XS650, an SR500, etc.

[Taz]

- I'm a Triumph guy -.

A very curable illness.:wacko:

[Big Dave]

Next test bike

[HenryDorsetCase]

Hmmm - I'm a Triumph guy - So what Norton do I mean then - big mutha 500 single.

ES2?

10 chars...

[Big Dave]

That cafe racer style bike (lowered, performance modified, single seat with bumstop, rearsets, ace bars or clipons, big single headlight) today can be almost anything: a Honda CB750, a Yamaha XS650, an SR500, etc.

Blah blah blah - Name the ONE.

I want it for an analogy - The... is not a ....

[slofox]

How about the Norton International - road legal manx...slightly detuned but still went like hell...

[HenryDorsetCase]

Blah blah blah - Name the ONE.

I want it for an analogy - The... is not a ....

NORVIN


http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=84763&highlight=Norvin

[MSTRS]

Was there ever just one that stood out above all others?
http://images.google.co.nz/images?gbv=2&ndsp=20&hl=en&q=old+school+cafe+racer&start=0&sa=N

[Mystic13]

It's about now that Big Dave regrets asking the question. lol.

[Big Dave]

Was there ever just one that stood out above all others?
http://images.google.co.nz/images?gbv=2&ndsp=20&hl=en&q=old+school+cafe+racer&start=0&sa=N

Every status has a symbol.

[Big Dave]

It's about now that Big Dave regrets asking the question. lol.

I don't regret the question - just the answers :-)

If two people say the same thing I'll call it a quorum!

[jamiey]

Triumph 500 Daytona gotta be my fave

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_7gYNb3GSh4M/RtBod2b8UXI/AAAAAAAABqI/7bpt61d7fxQ/s400/triumph.jpg

[koba]

As a young'n who wasn't there and doesn't know alot about it I would say a Goldstar.
I associate Manx Nortons more with proper track racing.

Yes, I know Goldies did that too but its just the mental link im talking about.

[BMWST?]

as a production bike the Honda cb400 f.....

[hospitalfood]

1949 on the A20 saw a few Ariel Red Hunters. Also 500 triumphs.
I would check what you can find through UK Classic Bike Mag.
Maybe a search on Joe's ( Johnsons ) Cafe

[Big Dave]

It's only for a throw away line.

More 'first one that comes into your head'.

[hospitalfood]

Wiki says Triton.

[Taz]

If I had to be serious (Dammit) I also would rate the Gold star right up there.

"The Gold Star was the definitive "Café Racer" of the 1960's and became an icon in Europe and the United States. Walker tells the story of what happened when BSA, who was somewhat embarrassed by the rebellious crowd who popularized the bike, announced that production of that model was ending. The bike was so popular that BSA's U.S. dealer network promptly refused to stock any of the other BSA models unless the Gold Star was included in the product mix!"

[Big Dave]

BSA Gold Star sums it up nicely.

Draft:

yanked and now being rewritten

----------

Thank you linesmen - thank you ball boys.

[Ixion]

I agree the Manx was a "real" racer, not a cafe racer. I hink the "cafe" part has to indicate something that looked like a 60s racer, was pretty fast , but not not in the same league as a real TT machine.

Which rules out the Clubmans models. My vote would go to the Rickman Metisse models, or any of the Triton/Tribsa/Norvin home jobs.

But if the criteria be relaxed to allow Clubman models, then the Gold Star or Velo Thruxton.

[Morcs]

Yamaha SRX-6! :D :p

[Bonez]

Has to have "Ace" bars...............

[Skyryder]

Just writing a bit and I need to cite an example.

Q: What is 'the' archetypal Cafe Racer Motorcycle?


My answer would be Manx Norton. Yours?



(archetypal |ˌärk(i)ˈtīpəl|
adjective
very typical of a certain kind of person or thing : the archetypal country doctor.
• recurrent as a symbol or motif in literature, art, or mythology )

AJS 7R.

Some others

Honda Norton Vincent

[xwhatsit]

Apart from the Vincent, the other two are a bit porky, aren't they?

The `Boy Racer' was more of a clubman, no?

Surely it can't have more than two cylinders :D Fairings are right out. Megaphone(s) and a single seat.

[Sidewinder]

my gsxr600 down at robbet harris, cant get mor cafe or racer!

[Motu]

Cafe's were never a NZ thing....more of a Pommy thing.I had a full Cafe Triton in 1973 - wideline Featherbed and T110 engine and gearbox,racing tank and seat,central oil tank swept back pipes with shorty Dunstalls,clip ons...the whole 9 yards.

Everyone who saw it said WTF?

Until I disapeared in the corners.

[xwhatsit]

How'd you reach the bars, Paul? Sit on the tank like a dirt bike -- but then how did you reach the rearsets?

:D

[paturoa]

First that popped into my noggin was the duc 750gt.

http://www.ducati.com/heritage/anni70/750gt/750gt.jhtml

But now when I look at it I'm confused. Was there an SS version with a cafe race tiny headlight fairing???

[AllanB]

BSA Gold Star sums it up nicely.

Draft:

yanked and now being rewritten

----------

Thank you linesmen - thank you ball boys.

NOOOOOOOOOO

It cannot be a production ride - the whole cafe thing started with stripping down a stock bike to make it faster in the jukebox race.

PS - that Guzzi has some style - take a holesaw to the arse end of the pipes Dave......:shifty:

[Big Dave]

Has to be British for me - all the pics I have of Rockers V Mods have Gold Stars prominent amongst the trouble makers. Good enough!

[Motu]

How'd you reach the bars, Paul? Sit on the tank like a dirt bike -- but then how did you reach the rearsets?

:D

Seemed a good fit at the time - looks like I could even ride it with my eyes closed.

<img src="http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/973/scan0016l.jpg"/>

[Paul in NZ]

Has to be British for me - all the pics I have of Rockers V Mods have Gold Stars prominent amongst the trouble makers. Good enough!

But the horrible reality was... They were rare and expensive so seldom seen outside a cafe. The majority of cafe racers were horrible oily wrecks based on whatever could be found stashed in a hedge. There was not the money about to build what we see now through rose coloured glasses.

If you want the definative 'cafe racer' it is NOT a bike built in the cafe style but a bike that was the aspirational item for riders when the cafes were operational and that means early 60's.

Gold Stars (why not)
Tritons
T110's
Velo's...
RE 250 (super 5)

BUT - most people thought Vincents we over complicated evil handling piles of munt suitable for country gents and mole buggery experts - people picked em up for a song really.

The 'proper cafe racers' were often 250's or worse, oily horrible mobile disaster areas - it was not until things picked up in the late 60's and early 70's that 'nice' bikes started being built...

[pete376403]

Manx, 7R (and big bro G50) don't count - they did the "racer" part ok, but not the "cafe" part
My definition of a true cafe-racer would be pre-unit Triumph motor in wideline Featherbed frame, Dunstall decibel silencers on swept back pipes, rear sets and Ace bars. twin Amal monoblocs with bell mouths, Alloy guards that constantly cracked through vibration. AM4 brake linings with "cooling rings" (which may or may not have done anything)attached to the drums . Smiths chronometric speedo and tacho. Stuff like that.

[Motu]

Apart from the front brake,you just described the bike in my photo.I sometimes used flat bars,and even higher bars if I wanted to do a trip.

It was 100lb lighter than a Triumph and good fun for a young fulla....glad I got it out of my system early.I took that bike down to the frame rails before it spat me off.

[Skyryder]

The origins of the cafe racer were the Brit bikes. They were 'chopped' to resemble the Isle of Mann and TT racers of the day. The cafe racers pronunced Kaff were a hodg podge of oily smokers. Once the Kaff was pronounced as cafe as in the French pronunceation the style of bike became a bit more sophisticated. To me the shift shifted from the Brits to continental Euro bikes mid 70's and on.


Skyryder

[xwhatsit]

The 'proper cafe racers' were often 250's or worse, oily horrible mobile disaster areas - it was not until things picked up in the late 60's and early 70's that 'nice' bikes started being built...
Mint! So you're saying I don't have to do too much more work on my bike before I can start calling it a cafe racer? :D

It sounds (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showpost.php?p=1986616&postcount=16) like one now at least. I overdid it on the Goldie over-run twitter though -- might just check those header/port gaskets again :eek:

[popelli]

I could never understand the rationale behind fitting the triumph engine in the norton frame to build a triton, both bsa and norton built better engines

for my own part I'm collecting parts to build a featherbed special

to date I have collected:

slimline frame
62 Ironhead Motor
metal profile forks (aka rickman)
alloy tank
concial rear hub
laverda twin leading shoe front hub
alloy rims

and the logical name for a Harley Davidson Norton hybrid

[T.W.R]

Pic 1 : serious end of the cafe' racer spectrum : Kennedy Lyster Special = Norton 650ss engine in Lyster frame total weight 300lb

Pic 2 : speaks for itself :msn-wink:

[Skyryder]

Apart from the Vincent, the other two are a bit porky, aren't they?

The `Boy Racer' was more of a clubman, no?

Surely it can't have more than two cylinders :D Fairings are right out. Megaphone(s) and a single seat.


Porky?? Tut tut. I thought the Honda looked.........sharpish.

[rasty]

DB 34 Gold Star in clubmans trim. The one that started it all.

[T.W.R]

for my own part I'm collecting parts to build a featherbed special

to date I have collected:

slimline frame
62 Ironhead Motor
metal profile forks (aka rickman)
alloy tank
concial rear hub
laverda twin leading shoe front hub
alloy rims

and the logical name for a Harley Davidson Norton hybrid

been done :rolleyes:

[pritch]

Q: What is 'the' archetypal Cafe Racer Motorcycle?


My answer would be Manx Norton. Yours?



Ummm as somebody may have said the Manx was a racer and was never road legal, no lights, would have had to be bump started etc etc. In the 1940s (?) there was the International which was a Manx engine in a road bike but as someone has said, while desirable it was production so doesn't really qualify.

The Norvin gets a mention which is nice but for me the most elegant and effective cafe racer would be the Triton, a Bonnie engine in a Norton frame.

Probably the most popular conversion back in the day...

[Brian d marge]

Pic 1 : serious end of the cafe' racer spectrum : Kennedy Lyster Special = Norton 650ss engine in Lyster frame total weight 300lb

Pic 2 : speaks for itself :msn-wink: now I know where all my old bike mags have gone .... YOU ave em ...

Thankfully I didnt throw out my collection of easy riders or Iron horse .... nice young ladies in there , there was ......:eek:

Stephen

[twotyred]

no such animal

[T.W.R]

now I know where all my old bike mags have gone .... YOU ave em ...

Thankfully I didnt throw out my collection of easy riders or Iron horse .... nice young ladies in there , there was ......:eek:

Stephen

:whistle: just got one or two stashed away :niceone:

[Motu]

I could never understand the rationale behind fitting the triumph engine in the norton frame to build a triton, both bsa and norton built better engines

The Triumph was more ''tunable'' by backyard wannabes.While the Norton may have been a better engine,getting the bits to make it go faster was more difficult.There were so many Triumph bits around that it was fairly easy to bring an old T'Bird up to Bonnie specs.

My Triton wasn't built as a Cafe racer,it was built by Mathew McCahon (RIP 2007) as a beach racer - there being no Classic movement back then,old racers were retired to the beach.A subsequent owner made it into a street bike.Old uncompetitive race bikes were a cheap way to pick up an exotic hybrid back then - I had the Triton,then a Rickman as road bikes,next an old roadracing sidecar became a bike to hoon around the streets on.The classic movement stopped these things being sold for a pitance to uncaring youth like me.

[Paul in NZ]

The story (as told to me) was more complicated than that re tritons... remembering people in the UK had been assembling all sorts of weird harold specials for yonks so a triton persay was no more special than anything else but....

Dave Degens etc won an edurance race on one and somehow it just caught peoples imagination that here was a fairly simple bike that looked the bizzo that could be made at home. Magazines published articles on how to do it along with templates for engine plates etc.

Set that into an enviroment where new bikes were in relative short supply but there were a few old wrecks about and specials made sense. The advent of HP and the improvement in the economy made better (new) bikes more easily attainable and it made less sense...

One other factor (unproven) was the popular formula junior car class. These were 500cc bike engines in small open wheelers. The engine to have was a 500cc manx Norton but Nortons would not sell you a bare engine for a car so... There were a few Manx chassis about needing engines.. (note - a top class Triton has a pukka Manx chassis, it's still a feathbed frame but very different). The trick was to make it look like a racer hence the swept back headers and all the rest...

This is useful

http://www.ace-cafe-london.com/History.aspx

Look at the bikes in the pictures in period compared to the modern versions....

[Motu]

One other factor (unproven) was the popular formula junior car class. These were 500cc bike engines in small open wheelers. The engine to have was a 500cc manx Norton but Nortons would not sell you a bare engine for a car so... There were a few Manx chassis about needing engines.. (note - a top class Triton has a pukka Manx chassis, it's still a feathbed frame but very different). The trick was to make it look like a racer hence the swept back headers and all the rest...


Just like in the '80's when there were an excess of YZ125's minus engine.....they went into karts.It was just a pity the YZ had a right hand chain.

I remember Len Perry showing me a brand new,never used featherbed frame ($80,he was always overpricing a bargain).There were a lot of Triumph engines that went in TQ midgets too - but no one want a Triumph minus engine.

[Brian d marge]

F,,, me ..That brought back a few memories ...I used to do the Chelsea bridge run ..on my Ducati single ,,, ,,, ' fully worked ' ...cept for rake, it was a nice bike ,,, ( the bacon sandwiches were crap on C/bridge dont know why we went there ,,, possibly becuase of the embankment , you could open things out a bit )


Stephen

[LBD]

Blah blah blah - Name the ONE.

I want it for an analogy - The... is not a ....

The one that always and still comes to my mind was/is the Rickman Honda 750 from the mid 70s.

Used to see a couple in Canterbury, one in particular with a gold fairing matching the gold Honda tank that I spotted at Ruapuna on the track a couple of times. It never came anywhere that I recall because the rider was a bit of a beginner, may even have be asian... if my memory serves me right.

Can any one else recall this?

Anyhow I liked the bike enough to recall it 30 years on so it must get my vote for a quintesential Cafe Racer....

[Madmax]

seally 750

[Forest]

I quite like the Ducati SS models of the late 70s.

To my mind, they are still the ultimate 'factory' cafe racers.

[xwhatsit]

Fairing. V-twin. worngA!

[Forest]

Fairing. V-twin. worngA!

You're quite right.

Cafe racers are simply wannabes and look-alikes.

The 750SS and 900SS were the real thing.

[Motu]

No,you are still wrong.The ducati was a wannabe - it was a production copy of a home built Cafe racer.Same as the Superglide was the first production chopper.The factories copy what is out in the real world to cash in on a trend.

You can't buy a Cafe racer,or a chopper - you build them.

[Taz]

Like mine.......

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v204/AJAdams/P1010732.jpg

[popelli]

You can't buy a Cafe racer,or a chopper - you build them.

best cross Rickman and Dresda off the list then

[Motu]

I would put Rickman in the hand built category.While a Ducati may be built by hand,I wouldn't class it as hand built.

[Paul in NZ]

This might help paint the picture..

http://www.flickr.com/photos/30096576@N05/sets/72157613288461253/show

[Big Dave]

One of my friends had an 860. The other had a 900.

Rebuilt by hand every third weekend in their case.

Rod actually Chopped the 860. Extended forks, ape hangers - the works.
He used to ride with AMF Harleys and hosed them.

[98tls]

One of my friends had an 860. The other had a 900.

Rebuilt by hand every third weekend in their case.

Rod actually Chopped the 860. Extended forks, ape hangers - the works.
He used to ride with AMF Harleys and hosed them. Dave havent read all the posts but if as i think your talking bevels why would someone have to rebuild an 860 every 3rd weekend?

[Big Dave]

Dave havent read all the posts but if as i think your talking bevels why would someone have to rebuild an 860 every 3rd weekend?

It kept breaking down. Dunno why - I went riding.

[98tls]

It kept breaking down. Dunno why - I went riding.

Fair call,seems odd as back in the day many mates had 860s combined with a few riding 750GTs,both capable of big miles and extremely robust.I often chuckle at the many posts on many forums re bevel drive unreliability.

[Big Dave]

Fair call,seems odd as back in the day many mates had 860s combined with a few riding 750GTs,both capable of big miles and extremely robust.I often chuckle at the many posts on many forums re bevel drive unreliability.


If I think about it it may have been electrical. Or he was painting it, or having something chromed, or hopping it up - or fixing it.

I was busy destroying a SR500.

[98tls]

If I think about it it may have been electrical. Or he was painting it, or having something chromed, or hopping it up - or fixing it.

I was busy destroying a SR500. Ahh yes,no doubt having the time of ya life,not to mention owning one i can still remember the first time i saw one.:doh:Jesus i wish i could see a new bike these days and still feel the same way,still no doubt thats all part of it and am glad that young buggers today can look at the latest n greatest and feel the same........i hope.

[Big Dave]

Actually - I went back there this afternoon.

[98tls]

Actually - I went back there this afternoon. Nice i guess,sadly thats all.

[Taz]

Actually - I went back there this afternoon.

Should have used a pic of a V7 sport as thats what the new bike is styled after.

[Big Dave]

Should have used a pic of a V7 sport as thats what the new bike is styled after.


Not according to their press releases.
--------
The New Moto Guzzi V7 Classic
With the V7 Classic, Moto Guzzi kills two birds with one stone: First, it celebrates the 40th birthday of the first Italian Maxi Motorcycle created by Giulio Cesare Carcano and second, it gives its response to the ever-increasing demand for classic, sophisticated, retro-design machines.

The V7 Classic is a sort of hybrid of the various V7s. Some of it comes from the luxurious Special like its chrome and decorations and some from the Sport from which it takes its tank.

Other components that are symbols of a different era, complete the picture like the spoked wheels, the cigar shaped silencers and the flat quilted saddle. These components commemorate a style that exemplifies one of the best examples of Italian design from the 60s and 70s using modern-day technology and engineering techniques.
-----------------

Does look more like that sport though.

[Taz]

Does look more like that sport though.

I think that's because they wanted it to sell :msn-wink:

[Big Dave]

But it has got other things from the special too - the vents on the side covers and the 'thruxton' pipes.

[Oscar]

4skins and Aggo had the right idea...