Help it hurts! Medical mentoring

[paddy]

I had two seemingly unrelated thoughts..

1) I haven't been around here long, and I haven't been riding long, so it can feel like I have little to offer and a lot to take.

2) I want to get in to adventure riding, which by it's very nature can be remote and far from help. What would I want my fellow riders to know that they might not already have picked up in a first-aid course if they were called upon to treat me?

Then it occured to me that perhaps I can take care of both in one hit. So, I am proposing a medical mentoring session. I would provide the venue and the teaching. People could chip in for pizza/drinks.

At this stage I just wanted to gauge interest before I spent time on a curriculum. I also know that there are others with a medical bent that would probably be interested in contributing.

I would propose a Saturday in early May, perhaps from 1000 to 1500 including lunch.

I am envisioning a very interactive format with lots of discussion. These are a few things that I am thinking of off hand:

* Basic first aid revision.
* CPR revision.
* Early information gathering for ambulance staff.
* First aid kits for riding. What to take.
* Motorcycle patterns of injuries.
* Helmet removal (When/Why/How/Practical Practice).
* Splinting (including long bone traction).
* Extended crush injuries (complications post release).
* Working with what is around you.
* Anaphylaxis (early signs, priorities).
* Asthma
* Shock (what it is and what it isn't, treatments)
* Hypothermia (detection, re-warming).
* Hyperthermia/dehydration.
* Helicopter safety.
* Helicopter landing zones.

I am sure there is a lot more, but that gives you and idea of what I was thinking of. At this stage I really want to just gauge interest so hopefully this will be a busy thread.

Who's interested? What would you be interested in covering?

[PirateJafa]

Interested.

[CookMySock]

I'd come along and do a course like that, but I'm four hours ride away. I should anyway, as I occasionally get volunteered as the "medial" person at the pocketbike racing (pilot, diver, 1st aid various.) The ideal would be to get some certificate or unit standard. Are you involved in that industry?

Steve

[Squiggles]

would be there

[Supermac Jr]

I'm in.......

[paddy]

I'd come along and do a course like that, but I'm four hours ride away. I should anyway, as I occasionally get volunteered as the "medial" person at the pocketbike racing (pilot, diver, 1st aid various.) The ideal would be to get some certificate or unit standard. Are you involved in that industry?

Steve


(Hey, I'm a pilot and diver too!)

Here's a bit more on me (although I have bought another bike since then):
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=90028

I'm not an NZQA certified assessor so I couldn't issue a unit standard or a first aid certificate. (And in fact I am not even working in the medical field at the moment; however, I am degree trained as a paramedic.) I wasn't really intending to cover a comprehensive enough list of topics to qualify as a first aid course.

First aid courses tend to be aimed at the lowest common denominator. They aim to simplify situations into steps that can always be followed by anybody. There is some validity in this (for example you don't want someone wondering if they should perform CPR on you - you just want them to do it). My thinking though was more about what I might want someone to think through if they were treating me.

(To give you an example of this, if my femur were sticking through my thigh I would want someone to apply traction to my leg as this would significantly reduce the pain; however, I would want that person to know where to hold and to know not to let go once they have applied traction. There is a perception that if a bone is sticking out - and potentially into the ground - that it shouldn't be reduced; however, the orthopods - orthopaedic surgeons - will debride and clean the wound in theatre and the bone is much more viable if it is protected in the thigh. I wouldn't want to try and have this debate while my femur was poking out - I would want the person to just know. That's where I am coming from.)

I wanted to get into some of the discussion of WHY and WHEN and give the opportunity for questions and debate (a lot of medical practice is not absolute). I guess I was aiming at building on the knowledge that someone might already have from first aid training (although that wouldn't preclude others coming - I just wouldn't want someone to come who had no first aid training and feel like they now didn't need any - having said that, some is better than none). It that respect, I'm reticent to use the word "course". I was probably thinking more along the lines of practical discussion. And lunch. :-)

Hope that answers your questions.

[paddy]

FYI I thinking if we get to about folk interested then it's worthwhile and I'll get planning.

[Crisis management]

Do you mean those little blue HTFU pills aren't the answer?:gob:


I have a few comments..

Thats a shit load to cover in 4 to 5 hours.
I assume you are trained in this, whats your qualifications?
Is there a danger of imparting a bit of knowledge to people that may in fact make them more confident than they should be? Can they do more harm than good?

Thats all the pessimism over but I think it will depend a lot on the base level of knowledge of your trainees and it may be better to teach:




ABC's
CPR
Controlling blood loss
Recovery position
Getting professional assistance!!!

More than this and I'm not sure of the effectiveness of the training. However, I think it's a great offer and everyone should know how to treat basic medical issues as you never know when it will happen.

Edit!!!!!
I see you have already answered most of these comments so disregard the bits you feel the need to.

[forkoil]

Yep, sounds very worthwhile

[paddy]

Thats a shit load to cover in 4 to 5 hours.
I assume you are trained in this, whats your qualifications?
Is there a danger of imparting a bit of knowledge to people that may in fact make them more confident than they should be? Can they do more harm than good?

Thats all the pessimism over but I think it will depend a lot on the base level of knowledge of your trainees and it may be better to teach:

ABC's
CPR
Controlling blood loss
Recovery position
Getting professional assistance!!!

More than this and I'm not sure of the effectiveness of the training. However, I think it's a great offer and everyone should know how to treat basic medical issues as you never know when it will happen.

I think I probably did answer most of this, but I agree - a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing. I am definitely not thinking this would be a woe-go approach. I would be assuming that people knew things like the recovery position, blood loss, etcetera. I definitely don't want to make people over confident (I'll have enough of that for all of us) but I do notice the questions like helmet removal do tend to come up regularly (not just in this forum).

[Owl]

Yeah, fantastic idea paddy!:clap:

[paddy]

I'd come along and do a course like that, but I'm four hours ride away. I should anyway, as I occasionally get volunteered as the "medial" person at the pocketbike racing (pilot, diver, 1st aid various.) The ideal would be to get some certificate or unit standard. Are you involved in that industry?


It occurs to me, that at your level of involvement, what you probably want to do is get yourself on a PHEC (yes it is pronounced how you think) course. I don't know who would offer Pre-Hospital Emergency Care in your area; however, I would start by checking with St. John as they will definitely be offering the qualification to their staff. That would give you a level of knowledge above a standard First Aid course and an NZQA unit standard. You would be trained to a level that is equivalent to the typical "community services" or "events" folk that St. John has standing around at events.

[BOGAR]

I have done first aid for a long time (still not great at it as i have never used it) but I would be interested in the aspect of (specific) motorcycle related injuries. What to look for, most likely areas of injury and best way to maintain the person until proper help arrives. Things like stabilize the head, not remove the helmet unless.... but be able to tell other people not to either and back it up with a good reason.
I wont be pulling anyones leg to stop the bone sticking out as I know I can't do that well enough but will try and keep the person as comfortable as possible while help is on the way.
Is this the level you will be in-parting your knowledge of, or is it a bit more advanced?

[insane1]

im in this should be worth it never know when you might just need to know how to do this stuff.:scooter:

[klingon]

YES! Absolutely!

I would cancel anything else I had planned for the day just to be there!

If you're concerned that people might (mistakenly) treat this as a substitute for a first aid course, then you could:

a) Insist that everyone who attends holds a basic first aid cert (or one that has expired within some specified short period of time)
and/or
b) Run this day directly after an actual first aid course - for example two consecutive Saturdays.

Personally I did the basic first aid course run by St Johns years ago. I have always intended to do it again, but was put off by my experience the first time. Basically the person running it treated us like we were in kindergarten and either refused to answer or didn't know the answers to any questions that were even marginally outside the scope of the course.

I ended up very frustrated about the whole thing and wondered if there was anything out there that was aimed at responsible adults.

In this case, I would happily do the basic first aid course in the knowledge that I would soon be able to ask my questions/have a discussion with a group of people who were genuinely interested in the subject!

PLEASE go ahead with this plan!

[paddy]

@BOGAR
I will impart knowledge at whatever level people want it really. I wasn't really planning a "course" per-se, but rather more of a facilitated and guided discussion with a topic plan. That's how I settled on the term mentoring. The is no point in me teaching stuff that is going to go right over peoples heads. :-) I spent three years training....we're talking about a four or five hour session. So don't worry, you wouldn't be lost.

[paddy]

@KLINGON
It sounds like my concept was aimed at you. :-) I don't want to exclude people who have no first-aid cert - I think that would reduce the numbers a lot and I think those people can still benefit. I just want to be clear that it doesn't REPLACE one.

Edit:
Just re-read your post - I probably can't provide the "responsible adult" bit. :-) But I know what you mean. I was there once.

[paddy]

Another couple of topic ideas (if people contribute what they would like I'll go through the forum and aggregate them all at some point):

Making a road scene safe (as possible at least).
Using your eyes (what can I actually see).

[HungusMaximist]

Yea bro, I am up.

I wanna learn millitary grade stuff!

[paddy]

I wanna learn millitary grade stuff!

Great, we could practice IO access on you:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEOLm2e6ovc :-)

[Toot Toot]

Hi Paddy.
Couple of Q's .. Where were you a paramedic and how long ago?
I may appear at the back of the class if I'm not working on the day.

[Anarkist]

I'm very keen, I have always been interested in doing something like this.

Please PM me once you have details sorted!

[paddy]

Hi Paddy.
Couple of Q's .. Where were you a paramedic and how long ago?
I may appear at the back of the class if I'm not working on the day.

I'll start with you first question first - I was never employed as a full-time paid paramedic (although that term is a bit loose as it has no legal definition in New Zealand and therefore no associated scope of practice). I do however have around 1500-1600 hours of clinical experience spread between metropolitan ambulance work, rural ambulance work, hospital emergency department work, and hospital theatre work. (If you were to take 1600 hours and spread it across a normal 4x4 roster that equates to around a year of clinical experience + obviously 3 years of degree training.)

As to you second question/statement - it sounds like you might have some medical training yourself. It which case please do feel welcome to come, but don't think you will get away with sitting quietly at the back as I a VERY sure that you will have valuable input. :-)

Again, I am loathe to use the terminology "class" that you employed. I am envisaging a facilitated discussion forum.

[Sharry]

That would be great, I keep doing St johns courses but have never had to use them.
As I am spending more time on the road I would like to be more aware of bike related injury and responses, including some 'what not to do's'.

Cheers mate

[kasper]

Count me in.

--kasper

[<Rhino>]

What people need to understand is that Paddy is offeing to share his knowledge and experience with people so that they might feel a little more comfortable when the shit hits the fan, shit it might even save somones life or even prevent someone else from driving through a scene and killing somone! As he's stated, its not a course - no money is changing hands and theres not a qualification at the end. Gee sounds exactly like what happens when you see/go to a mentor!

I think what your doing is great Paddy - don't let the nay sayers bother you, seems they have nothing better to do and of course they all no better!

For anyone wanting to go then go, support the guy and you may learn somthing. :rockon:

[FJRider]

Yea bro, I am up.

I wanna learn millitary grade stuff!

I spent quite a few years in the military... with personal experience in being "attended" by army medics... basic ...keep you alive stuff... THEY (usually) have radio contact, with doctors if needed. AND CHOPPERS.


Knowing what to do, what to look for, is better than doing nothing.... knowing nothing. The more people that do know... the better... :niceone:

[Toot Toot]

full-time paid paramedic (although that term is a bit loose as it has no legal definition in New Zealand and therefore no associated scope of practice).
No legal definition, you are correct but that is changing with Paramedic registration looming closer, much the same as Registered Nurses. Paramedic is a lay term loosely used to describe anyone working as an Ambulance Officer on an Ambulance in a recognised service. Within the service it is used to desribe a particular scope of practice.


As to you second question/statement - it sounds like you might have some medical training yourself.
Perhaps you missed your calling as a detective?


Again, I am loathe to use the terminology "class" that you employed. I am envisaging a facilitated discussion forum.
Symantecs!

[Weta]

Yeah I'd be keen sounds like a great idea especially being focused on possible bike injuries. I've been in a few situations were a lot of people have stood around not doing a lot or arguing amongst each other over best course of action while some poor prick lies there entangled (or not).
so yes do it.

[Griffin]

I'll start with you first question first - I was never employed as a full-time paid paramedic (although that term is a bit loose as it has no legal definition in New Zealand and therefore no associated scope of practice). I do however have around 1500-1600 hours of clinical experience spread between metropolitan ambulance work, rural ambulance work, hospital emergency department work, and hospital theatre work. (If you were to take 1600 hours and spread it across a normal 4x4 roster that equates to around a year of clinical experience + obviously 3 years of degree training.)


Just to expand a little on Toot Toots question, where did you do your Paramedic Training (one assumes it was done in conjunction with an Ambulance Service provider as you state you have clinical experience). And just to satisfy ones curiosity... why did you not go on from the degree program to follow a career in an industry you obviously have an interst in?

[paddy]

Just to expand a little on Toot Toots question, where did you do your Paramedic Training (one assumes it was done in conjunction with an Ambulance Service provider as you state you have clinical experience). And just to satisfy ones curiosity... why did you not go on from the degree program to follow a career in an industry you obviously have an interst in?

I'm a bit pressed for time, but I will try and quickly answer your questions:

1) Auckland University of Technology (BHSc Paramedic - I had to withdraw from my final paper which essentially means that I am 144 hours of clinical experience and one mannequin assessment short of the degree. I have however passed the Viva Voce if that means anything to you.)

2) In addition to the clinical experience of the degree program, I was also a VAO at Warkworth station (where we tend to have a lot of RTCs).

3) A whole variety of reasons, but here are the main ones: I didn't want to work for St. John, personality conflicts, and the large paycut that would ensue.

[paddy]

Well, I think that there was definitely enough interest out there. I will starting making some arrangements. I will be shooting for sometime in May. I'll keep you all posted right here.

[klingon]

Well, I think that there was definitely enough interest out there. I will starting making some arrangements. I will be shooting for sometime in May. I'll keep you all posted right here.

Thanks Paddy. Looking forward to it already.

[Metalor]

I'd be keen.

[dpex]

I had two seemingly unrelated thoughts..

1) I haven't been around here long, and I haven't been riding long, so it can feel like I have little to offer and a lot to take.

2) I want to get in to adventure riding, which by it's very nature can be remote and far from help. What would I want my fellow riders to know that they might not already have picked up in a first-aid course if they were called upon to treat me?

Then it occured to me that perhaps I can take care of both in one hit. So, I am proposing a medical mentoring session. I would provide the venue and the teaching. People could chip in for pizza/drinks.

At this stage I just wanted to gauge interest before I spent time on a curriculum. I also know that there are others with a medical bent that would probably be interested in contributing.

I would propose a Saturday in early May, perhaps from 1000 to 1500 including lunch.

I am envisioning a very interactive format with lots of discussion. These are a few things that I am thinking of off hand:

* Basic first aid revision.
* CPR revision.
* Early information gathering for ambulance staff.
* First aid kits for riding. What to take.
* Motorcycle patterns of injuries.
* Helmet removal (When/Why/How/Practical Practice).
* Splinting (including long bone traction).
* Extended crush injuries (complications post release).
* Working with what is around you.
* Anaphylaxis (early signs, priorities).
* Asthma
* Shock (what it is and what it isn't, treatments)
* Hypothermia (detection, re-warming).
* Hyperthermia/dehydration.
* Helicopter safety.
* Helicopter landing zones.

I am sure there is a lot more, but that gives you and idea of what I was thinking of. At this stage I really want to just gauge interest so hopefully this will be a busy thread.

Who's interested? What would you be interested in covering?

Looks like a fab idea, except you probably need to include the 'How' on performing a trachyotomy, using only shards of broken mirror and hydraulic hose, and eye-poking to establish if the nearly departed is actually the dearly departed.

But seriously, I'd be keen to do the bits you listed. Are you a quack, or semi-quack?

[paddy]

Looks like a fab idea, except you probably need to include the 'How' on performing a trachyotomy, using only shards of broken mirror and hydraulic hose, and eye-poking to establish if the nearly departed is actually the dearly departed.

But seriously, I'd be keen to do the bits you listed. Are you a quack, or semi-quack?

That's brilliant. I hadn't really thought about that. "Locate the cricoid cartilage and insert mirror. Once the incision is large enough, simply insert you hydraulic hose. If you are unable to find any hydraulic hose, fuel hose may suffice in a pinch." Fantastic.

We could cover off electro-cautery with the spark plug, wound cleaning with petrol, MAST with your spare innertube.... and I'm sure you could intubate with a tyre iron and well, some hydraulic tubing. :-)

I'm probably best described as semi-quack in that I'm not currently practising.

[kasper]

Just bringing this back to the fore front.

Has this happened yet? if not when will it be on?

--kat

[Bounce001]

Great idea - saw it on the calendar. Would love to come along but the Classic Bike racing is at Pukekohe that weekend so am unable to attend. Will there be another one?

[The Everlasting]

Was just reading this thread and thinking it was a good idea,but then saw the dates...

Is it still going to happen? I'm keen.

[NewRob]

Sounds great, would like to come for this...as said before...As i read the post and trying to find the location....please give location and time. Will try my best to make time for this.Thanks.