One Class One Bike

[GSVR]

Here's something that has been kicking around on these threads for a while with F1 riders not getting much riding at the Vic Club rounds as they can't cross enter into any other groups. Only intending this to be a discussion as I won't be making any formal request for changes in how the Vic Club run their meetings as they do very well and you don't change something thats working well without alot of consideration.

The idea is to combine F1 and F2. Dont allow F3 to cross enter into the combined F1 and F2 class and give everyone slighlty longer or one more race per meeting. Cross entering from Post classics into F1 F2 or F3 could also be disscouraged. eg One bike per class.

So everyone gets the same amount of racing unless they own two bikes. The benefits may not be apparent but they will help a meeting to run smoother and cycle faster.

Ultimately it comes down to how many are entered in F1 but its generally full of F2 bikes anyway. Results can be the same way F3 and ProTwin are done. ie class within a class.

[GIXser]

Here's something that has been kicking around on these threads for a while with F1 riders not getting much riding at the Vic Club rounds as they can't cross enter into any other groups. Only intending this to be a discussion as I won't be making any formal request for changes in how the Vic Club run their meetings as they do very well and you don't change something thats working well without alot of consideration.

The idea is to combine F1 and F2. Dont allow F3 to cross enter into the combined F1 and F2 class and give everyone slighlty longer or one more race per meeting. Cross entering from Post classics into F1 F2 or F3 could also be disscouraged. eg One bike per class.

So everyone gets the same amount of racing unless they own two bikes. The benefits may not be apparent but they will help a meeting to run smoother and cycle faster.

Ultimately it comes down to how many are entered in F1 but its generally full of F2 bikes anyway. Results can be the same way F3 and ProTwin are done. ie class within a class.

yep couldnt agree more.. i started a similar thread
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=94460,

can i ask though why you wont request a change ?

[White trash]

yep couldnt agree more.. i started a similar thread
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=94460,

can i ask though why you wont request a change ?
Obviously Garry has his own reasons but I'd imagine one of them to be that he doesn't race, so why should he?

I'm of a similar opinion that if there's only 6 or 7 proper F1 bikes at a meeting, why not lump the F1 and F2 bikes into one race, seperate the points and give em two or three 15 lappers in a day.

Those that fail to qualify in the top 35 go to Clubman class.

As Garry has previously pointed out though, the way VMCC run their meetings is the best there is. I think it would take the support of the majority of F2 and F1 racers to make it happen and they may be a little far into their winter planning to be able to change now.

[Skunk]

"Proper F1"? If a bike in F2 can cross-enter then it is a "proper F1" isn't it? :laugh:

Good ideas WT.

Yeah, I know what you mean... Nothing will happen this year but start the ideas for next year.
How do we encourage more litre bikes to race?
Do we need a new set of rules for "F1"?
How do we keep the costs under control? I've been told that you can run two 600's for the cost of running one 1000. True?

Discuss.

[White trash]

"Proper F1"? If a bike in F2 can cross-enter then it is a "proper F1" isn't it? :laugh:

Good ideas WT.

Yeah, I know what you mean... Nothing will happen this year but start the ideas for next year.
How do we encourage more litre bikes to race?
Do we need a new set of rules for "F1"?
How do we keep the costs under control? I've been told that you can run two 600's for the cost of running one 1000. True?

Discuss.
You know what I mean mate, a 600 is certainly not an F1 machine.

No way could you run two 600s for the same price as a 1000. Unless your thousand was a total pig and ate tyres badly.

I think only allowing F1 bikes to compete in the F1 championship might be a start to encouraging more riders to move onto them. This would have a flow on effect into our National series as well I believe. Let's face it, there's not a lot of motivation for our current 600 Club Racers to change classes, they've got it sweet, why would they?

Edit: Sorry, in regards to the rules, I think they're fine but could maybe be changed to exclude under 700cc 4 stroke multis. The good thing about F1 now is there are a few hotrod bikes around (the late Grant Russels Fireblade springs to mind) that do not conform with the current NZSBK rules. It'd be cool to see a few of these machines getting dusted off and used. I mean technically, there's no reason someone with the money can't import a used 500GP machine and race it in F1 at the Actrix series. Shit, I'd pay a gate fee simply to see the thing being ridden. What about the BSL's? Someone must have them locked away, get them out ya wankers!

[Shaun P]

Bump up the cross entry fee and make F1 a prizemoney class? 1st 2nd 3rd :Punk:

[CHOPPA]

"Proper F1"? If a bike in F2 can cross-enter then it is a "proper F1" isn't it? :laugh:

Good ideas WT.

Yeah, I know what you mean... Nothing will happen this year but start the ideas for next year.
How do we encourage more litre bikes to race?
Do we need a new set of rules for "F1"?
How do we keep the costs under control? I've been told that you can run two 600's for the cost of running one 1000. True?

Discuss.

I like the idea of more racing! 600 is exactly the same to run in my experience so no excuses there..

I wanna get a 600 as well...

[Teambwr47]

Run the classes together and try and try to extrapolate the individual class results? .... no thanks, while the best of the 1000s should be ahead of the 600's there will always be a situation where someone gets held up by a semi fast 1000 that blasts the straights to hold up or ruin a 600 battle in the field and effect a championship even.

Why not stop the cross entry altogether and run F1 and F2 races on their own but then have an Open class race for all to enter.

If the F1 class does not have enough entries well sorry tough luck, if you're on a 1000 you'll have to put up with just the Open race.

I've raced at lots of clubs in the UK where they have a 600cc series, Powerbike (over 700cc) and then a Open or Unlimited class race.

Ultimately how far to you go with maintaining a class if the entry numbers drop?

The argument would seem to be that the 1000cc riders want 2 race classes, this would give them the 2 classes if the class numbers are ok.

[Kickaha]

Run the classes together and try and try to extrapolate the individual class results? .... no thanks,

shouldn't be hard to do using transponders

[Teambwr47]

shouldn't be hard to do using transponders

Yeah would be easy to get the results with transponders thats not what i was trying to say....

I was trying to say I'd be more concerned about trying to run a championship with both classes on track in the same race. It will never be a true F2 championship with the mid pace F1 bikes mixed into the field.

As a rider in F2 which is normally over subscribed at the VMCC, i also don't accept why the F2 championship should suffer to accommodate the F1's sorry.

[slowpoke]

I'm of a similar opinion that if there's only 6 or 7 proper F1 bikes at a meeting, why not lump the F1 and F2 bikes into one race, seperate the points and give em two or three 15 lappers in a day.

Those that fail to qualify in the top 35 go to Clubman class.

As Garry has previously pointed out though, the way VMCC run their meetings is the best there is. I think it would take the support of the majority of F2 and F1 racers to make it happen and they may be a little far into their winter planning to be able to change now.

Totally agree with the racing scenario, Mr Trash. The things are so close in lap times there's no reason they can't race together and have 2 races within one. I mean look at the top finishers from last season, 3 of the top 4 finishers were on 600's all season and the 4th (the winner, Mr Sloan) started on a 600 I think.


No reason at all something can't happen this season, we aren't talking major machinery changes just fine tuning the entry rules. The season is still nearly 2 months away.[/COLOR]

How do we encourage more litre bikes to race?

By giving them equal track time, simple.

Do we need a new set of rules for "F1"? Nope

How do we keep the costs under control? I've been told that you can run two 600's for the cost of running one 1000. True?

This is club racing, not the Nationals and people can take it as seriously or as casual as they want. Individuals dictate the costs at this level. If people can afford to run a 600 in 2 classes then costs are not the issue.
Discuss.

I've already approached Vic Club about what I see as major problem with club racing in NZ.

Hopefully something will come of it and we'll have a truly aspirational series that steers our brightest and best onto the biggest baddest machines rather than stalling them in the half way house that is 600's. Our sport will benefit overall as a spectacle for spectators, sponsors and TV alike.

Yes, Vic Club run a great series but there's no reason it can't be better still. The longer we leave it the worse it will get as the few remaining Superbike riders get the shits with it and go to other classes. Some may see that as a good thing but it will be a sad day for our sport when Superbikes disappear.

[GSVR]

Yeah would be easy to get the results with transponders thats not what i was trying to say....

I was trying to say I'd be more concerned about trying to run a championship with both classes on track in the same race. It will never be a true F2 championship with the mid pace F1 bikes mixed into the field.

As a rider in F2 which is normally over subscribed at the VMCC, i also don't accept why the F2 championship should suffer to accommodate the F1's sorry.

Well just looking at last years VMCC Superbike results 600s came 2nd 3rd and 4th overall. Theres no doubt in my mind if Craig Sheriffs had done the winter series on a 600 he would have won it. So if anything it gives 2 people riding Superbikes a shot a podium..

No different ot having backmarkers decide a race. Its the guy that knows how to overtake, outbreak, etc that deserves the result. And its gotta be good for gaining race skills.

[Racey Rider]

F1 'B' grade?

In the same races as F1, allow a 'B' grade of riders on 1000cc bikes 5 years or older. (the bikes, not the riders). Separtate points. Give more riders a feel for the class, on cheaper bikes.
and when they are ready... Riders will step up to the top grade.

Just a thought.

Racey.

[White trash]

It will never be a true F2 championship with the mid pace F1 bikes mixed into the field.

So what? It's not a true F1 championship with 600s in the mix. I don't believe having two seperate classes on track is that much of an issue. A mid pack 1000 is no different from a mid pack 600. You can either get by the guy, or you can't. It's the same for everybody.


As a rider in F2 which is normally over subscribed at the VMCC, i also don't accept why the F2 championship should suffer to accommodate the F1's sorry.

It wont suffer at all I don't think. How many rounds last year were riders turned away from the grid in the F2 class? None I can remember.

[Shaun P]

Its been said before but I think the answer would be to run a simple grading system eg A and B in F1 and F2 - kept seperate, that would give the slower pace riders something to ride for eg 1st 'B' grade and boost numbers accordingly. Wouldnt be a safety issue in 6 lap races, also the open race is a good idea because it gives the faster more commited riders more track time

[slowpoke]

Run the classes together and try and try to extrapolate the individual class results? .... no thanks, while the best of the 1000s should be ahead of the 600's there will always be a situation where someone gets held up by a semi fast 1000 that blasts the straights to hold up or ruin a 600 battle in the field and effect a championship even.

Why not stop the cross entry altogether and run F1 and F2 races on their own but then have an Open class race for all to enter.

If the F1 class does not have enough entries well sorry tough luck, if you're on a 1000 you'll have to put up with just the Open race.

I've raced at lots of clubs in the UK where they have a 600cc series, Powerbike (over 700cc) and then a Open or Unlimited class race.

Ultimately how far to you go with maintaining a class if the entry numbers drop?

The argument would seem to be that the 1000cc riders want 2 race classes, this would give them the 2 classes if the class numbers are ok.


As a rider in F2 which is normally over subscribed at the VMCC, i also don't accept why the F2 championship should suffer to accommodate the F1's sorry.

Hmmm, it doesn't seem fair to run a class into the ground by giving it half the track time, then when people have understandably moved to other classes use the excuse that there aren't any entrants to let it die.

There are simple solutions that would enable everyone to get an equitable amount of track time. As a result 600's wouldn't be oversubscribed and F1 would flourish. As for combining the two classes and tangling each other up, this is club racing at the arse end of the world after all, we aren't racing for $$$ or contracts. There will always be the Nationals for those who want to take things super seriously.

This is a win win situation for everyone if it's handled right.

[j-lo69]

wat about peoplr that wana run a 600 n 1000??

[White trash]

wat about peoplr that wana run a 600 n 1000??
Actually, hadn't thought of that. Good point.

[HDTboy]

Nicko was doing hust that a couple of years ago, as was Craig Shirrifs

[FROSTY]

What would happen if rather than following the class rules for nationals if a simple a.b,c .d and e class were run?
If its about races and time on track hold 5 classes decided by qualifying times.

[White trash]

That's exactly how Tim Gibbes Suzuki Central series used to be run. Good numbers too.

For some reason it only ran for a couple of winters. Paid prize money also.

[slowpoke]

What would happen if rather than following the class rules for nationals if a simple a.b,c .d and e class were run?
If its about races and time on track hold 5 classes decided by qualifying times.

I don't know that it's applicable across the board and the speed differential between different bikes still needs to be considered. The problem seems to be a fairly specific one to F1's and 600's so I reckon including other classes is over complicating it.

The grading system ran in Western Australia when I was over there and seemed to run quite well. Even if you weren't at the pointy end you had something to race/aim for, even if it was just making the next grade. There was certainly no shortage of numbers!

[cowpoos]

there's no reason someone with the money can't import a used 500GP machine and race it in F1 at the Actrix series. Shit, I'd pay a gate fee simply to see the thing being ridden.
or build one?? Rgv 250 + Rgv250 = ???? theres a 3 cyclinder 750 two stroke floating around some where ain't there?

[White trash]

RGVs and the like are actually too wide. Imagine a paralel twin with the cylinders split and one laid forward. That would make it wider than a four cylinder inline.

[cowpoos]

wat about peoplr that wana run a 600 n 1000??
they could save money and have one or the other...or they could run both...and still have the same amount of track time as everyone else :) simple aye....

[cowpoos]

RGVs and the like are actually too wide. Imagine a paralel twin with the cylinders split and one laid forward. That would make it wider than a four cylinder inline.
roger.......cr500 + cr 500 ???

[DEATH_INC.]

The cross entry problem is easy, if you wanna run 2 classes, you pay twice. Full entry fee for each class. That'll cut the numbers back. I did always like the idea of a combined class with more laps though......maybe you could start them a half lap apart to stop a bit of the interfering from the different paces? Grid up and start the thous, then grid up the 600's and when the thous get to a certain point send them off. Should work....
Oh yeh, and more relaxed rules for older bikes maybe....my old dino with a turbo on it will still only be as fast as ed's rocket....maybe...and how about ZX14's and stuff?

[steveyb]

Bear in mind that VMCC runs Superbike and Supersport classes under the old Fomula 1 and Formula 2 rules precisely to encourage all those riders out there with F1 and F2 bikes to enter.

How many actually do?

NO MORE RACES CAN BE INCLUDED INTO THE VMCC PROGRAMME. There is simply NO MORE TIME!!

So a solution needs to be found within the current structure that encourages more F1 riders to turn up.

Only SP600 riders really get extra track time. No other riders can realistically cross enter.

Perhaps we should run the SBK and SP600 together in the same races, make them a bit longer and separate the points afterwards.

The issue of bikes getting in the way is there, but ultimately it is club racing and really, how often is it going to happen?

Not only would this make track time a bit more equitable, it will cut down on running costs for riders (as SP600 will get a bit less tracktime than previously), but it will also free up more time in the programme for extending other race lengths.

Graded or bracket racing has its pros and its cons.

At circuits like Manfeild it is not too bad, as long as the time brackets are close enough. But at circuits like Puke and Taupo it will be quite a different story. With the plethora of different machines we have now some major speed differentials in straight lines can be anticipated and the possibility of dangerous situations being created is high.
If such a situation can be anticipated and then it is created, then this can be regarded and criminal negligence if something bad happens. Anyone want that?

We had graded racing for many years at Baypark Tauranga Motorcycle Club and at Suzuki Central RR Series and even at AMCC, but we have all moved away from it for good reasons.

Graded licencing on the other hand, I believe to be a neccesity now.

[koba]

What would happen if rather than following the class rules for nationals if a simple a.b,c .d and e class were run?
If its about races and time on track hold 5 classes decided by qualifying times.

I quite vividly remember Derek Hill answering that question, his reply went somthing like this:
"Na, bad Idea, we have tried doing that all before and I was fast enough to be mixed in with much faster bikes on the 400. The speed differential is just too great, it is scary and dangerous. It is speed differential that kills on racetracks"

It freaks the fuck out of me everytime I think of that.

[neil_cb125t]

I believe that the cross entering between F1-F2-F3 shoud not be allowed, this is also supported by what derek said and the 115% rule - if bikes cant keep up it woud be too dangerous. i used to enter my RG150 into F3 until i got collected by a F3 bike lapping me.

they did this whole one class for 600 and F1 at wangas 2 years ago - suddenly you have nebies to the 600 class against fire breathers. and only 40 bikes can fit on the grid - if this class was created people who don't come in under 115% DONT GET TO RIDE AT ALL!!

Cross entering Posties and F3 SHOULD be allowed, people like myself looked for a 1989 bike to do just that!! run 2 classes - also with the dominance of these newly modified machines ( SV's and triples ) the original F3 bikes or 250 2 smokes and the 400 multis now really only compete in posties.

[svs]

wat about peoplr that wana run a 600 n 1000??


Harden up. concentrate on running one bike properly.

That's half the problem in NZ, with rules flexible enough to allow all comers to run what they brung. Good in that it encourages people on the track, but bad that everyone then whinges that its not fair and xxx bike is too quick/ too slow/ not competitive.




Cross entering Posties and F3 SHOULD be allowed, people like myself looked for a 1989 bike to do just that!! run 2 classes.

so no else else should be allowed to cross enter? just you? :bleh:

To be honest I think the one bike/one class rule has it's merits. F1 and F2 could be run simultaneously with split grid if the numbers in F1 weren't high enough to justify their own race. However F1/superbikes is still the 'premier' class and do you really want to combine it? There was a big stink (from the riders) about the combined formula wanganui class - has that attitude changed?

[White trash]

My issue with that at Wangas wasn't that they'd combined it so much, rather theyd split the Motards and replaced one road race class with an extra Chook chaser (no offence Quasi) class.

[scracha]

The idea is to combine F1 and F2. Dont allow F3 to cross enter into the combined F1 and F2 class and give everyone slighlty longer or one more race per meeting. Cross entering from Post classics into F1 F2 or F3 could also be disscouraged. eg One bike per class.

Why the hell should talented guys like Sam Smith, Jarred Wintel, Glen Williams and Mr Sketchy not be allowed into the combined F1/F2.....they're faster than 3/4 of the field? Why should fast posties guys not be allowed? Are we all to suffer more costs (buy purchasing two bikes) to compensate for the $hitty state of F1? The "correct" bike already gets preference (bumped up the list) for it's main class so everyone gets a race. If someone's on a litre bike and can't get into the top 35 then they should be in clubmans or do more track tays. Good F2 / post classics riders shouldn't suffer.

And I'm not biased, I'm running two bikes this year.

[GSVR]

Why the hell should talented guys like Sam Smith, Jarred Wintel, Glen Williams and Mr Sketchy not be allowed into the combined F1/F2.....they're faster than 3/4 of the field? Why should fast posties guys not be allowed? Are we all to suffer more costs (buy purchasing two bikes) to compensate for the $hitty state of F1? The "correct" bike already gets preference (bumped up the list) for it's main class so everyone gets a race. If someone's on a litre bike and can't get into the top 35 then they should be in clubmans or do more track tays. Good F2 / post classics riders shouldn't suffer.

And I'm not biased, I'm running two bikes this year.

Be interesting to see just what level of entries are received for this years winter series.

Jarrod Wintle is talented just not sure if its on the track. Sketchy already has a 600. Glen to my knowlege isn't
doing much riding this winter. Sam Smith may want to turn up and try out the handlebar shock adjuster gizmo again.

Someone that might be put out by this idea is a racer with a 600 and 1000 as they would have to choose which one they wanted to ride if the classes where run together!

Most guys cross enter for the extra practice and sometimes don't even ride in their second class.

[slowpoke]

Why the hell should talented guys like Sam Smith, Jarred Wintel, Glen Williams and Mr Sketchy not be allowed into the combined F1/F2.....they're faster than 3/4 of the field? Why should fast posties guys not be allowed? Are we all to suffer more costs (buy purchasing two bikes) to compensate for the $hitty state of F1? The "correct" bike already gets preference (bumped up the list) for it's main class so everyone gets a race. If someone's on a litre bike and can't get into the top 35 then they should be in clubmans or do more track tays. Good F2 / post classics riders shouldn't suffer.

And I'm not biased, I'm running two bikes this year.

I'd agree with you if the cross entry rules had resulted from the sad state of F1 but poor F1 entries are a result of the cross entry rules, not the other way 'round.

If F1 had equal track time compared to other classes then it would be in a far healthier state and there'd be a more equitable split of F1 and F2 bikes. The benefits are obvious, with another tightly contested club class adding to the show for sponsors and spectators.

As it is now a talented young rider starts in SS150 say, moves into Pro Twins, then to 600's......and stalls. It's bad enough that the likes of Hayden Fitzgerald and Sam Smith need to go overseas to get a high level of competiton but it's gonna be even worse if you have to go overseas just to race a Superbike.

Take a good look at Stroudie, Craig Shirriffs and Ray Clee because racers of their class are on the endangered species list and soon to become extinct if things keep on as they are. If you think it's tough getting a good crowd to a meeting, or TV coverage now, just wait until Superbikes are run into the ground.

But all is not doom and gloom, there are simple solutions, it just takes a few reasonable people to sit down and tweak things a bit. It doesn't need much and everyone will benefit either directly or indirectly.

[scracha]

If F1 had equal track time compared to other classes then it would be in a far healthier state and there'd be a more

Possibly. The combining F1 and F2 makes more sense (racing for different points tho') but excluding bikes merely cos they're also in F3 or posties isn't right. AFAIK at the VMCC every bike has a "main" class so as you're on an F2 or F1 bike and qualify fast enough as not to be dangerous then you're not gonna be bumped down the list by the likes of Sam Smith if his "main" class is F3.


One bike, one class ain't gonna reduce costs for anyone nor help F1 in any way.

[cowpoos]

Only SP600 riders really get extra track time. No other riders can realistically cross enter.


thought there were a few F3 guys x entering regularly... and the motards used to.

But I think running f2+f1 together would be a great step forward...f1 race's are already like that...no one complains apart for the f1 riders who want to x enter into f2...which is really fair enough!!!


people who don't come in under 115% DONT GET TO RIDE AT ALL!!



thats right...doesn't matter whos in the feild..F1 or F2...if its mixed or what ever..so if your too slow...your TOO DANGEROUS!!! and thats tough shit...the majority of riders safty is much more important that one persons fun...thats also why we have scrutineering also..amoung other safty initives.

[slowpoke]

Only SP600 riders really get extra track time. No other riders can realistically cross enter.


As Mr Poos has mentioned:

F3 or Pro Twin fulla's jump into F2,
Post Classic Senior jump into F1,
Post Classic Junior jump into F2,
Motards can jump into F3 (depending on riding style)
Depending on the meet there's also cross entering into BEAR's.
The Sales team even cross enter from Post classic into Motards on that amazing XR mutant.

Some people even cough up the $10 just have extra time on track during another qualifying session. The last VMCC round in 2008, my first in F1, I was sweating bullets 'cos I had no idea how I'd go on the new bike and their were 41 entries for the class. Only 35 fronted on the grid though.