Race tyre heat cycles

[Quasievil]

Hi Guys, can anyone tell me about tyre durability for a race tyre, how many heat cycles can they go through before they are fucked, Im currently thinking if it isnt worn out its still good but Im not so sure this is correct.
Can I get some reasonably qualified answers on this please.

cheers

[sinfull]

Subscribes to this thread !

[roogazza]

Hi Guys, can anyone tell me about tyre durability for a race tyre, how many heat cycles can they go through before they are fucked, Im currently thinking if it isnt worn out its still good but Im not so sure this is correct.
Can I get some reasonably qualified answers on this please.

cheers

I run supercorsas on the bandit and have noticed when they've had enough they really stop, I mean , just no grip at all ! But that is usually when the tread had almost gone. There is a gradual decline, but when its over you really notice.
But as far as heat cycles , I do heaps. If that helps at all ? Gaz.

[James Deuce]

Proper race tyres are at their peak for one race. Not meeting or series. One single race. That's why you'll see guys picking up track day tyres from racers for next to nothing. They're better than anything Johnny Trackday has used, but for a 10/10ths racer they're shagged.

[FROSTY]

JD has it in a nutshell. If you're racing for fractions of a second then one race they've lost that last 1/100th of grip.
If you arent finding the limits of the tyres then so their theoretical lifespan increases

[Quasievil]

JD has it in a nutshell. If you're racing for fractions of a second then one race they've lost that last 1/100th of grip.
If you arent finding the limits of the tyres then so their theoretical lifespan increases

Oh thats nice if you have a factory sponsor package but in the real world the question remians, how many heat cycles are they good for ??

[James Deuce]

One. They're only designed to be used once. If you want to use tyres over and over, buy top end sticky road tyres.

[Robert Taylor]

Oh thats nice if you have a factory sponsor package but in the real world the question remians, how many heat cycles are they good for ??


8 to 10 heat cycles maximum. Peter Goddard describes it very well, ''tyres are like cakes'' Dont heat them beyond 75 degrees max on your warmers otherwise you will change their chemical composition. Dont let them cool down too quickly after a race / practice, place the warmers back on them to let them cool down slowly.

[Quasievil]

One. They're only designed to be used once. If you want to use tyres over and over, buy top end sticky road tyres.

Yeah Bro, I do, using Contis at the moment.

[Quasievil]

8 to 10 heat cycles maximum. Peter Goddard describes it very well, ''tyres are like cakes'' Dont heat them beyond 75 degrees max on your warmers otherwise you will change their chemical composition. Dont let them cool down too quickly after a race / practice, place the warmers back on them to let them cool down slowly.


Perfect thanks Au !

Any online data about it ??

[Robert Taylor]

Perfect thanks Au !

Any online data about it ??

Send me an e-mail to my regular e-mail address and Ill send you a little more info.

[johan]

Are heat cycles counted each time you take the warmers off or per day?


My pirelli superbike slicks seem to last forever. Maybe I'm doing something wrong?

[Robert Taylor]

Are heat cycles counted each time you take the warmers off or per day?


My pirelli superbike slicks seem to last forever. Maybe I'm doing something wrong?

Per race was the intent

[johan]

Per race was the intent

cheers Robert!

[Mishy]

Oh thats nice if you have a factory sponsor package but in the real world the question remians, how many heat cycles are they good for ??

6 to 8 is about the sensible limit for good behaviour, anything more than that can end up with poor grip, and worsening predictibility. This relies on the heat up and cool down being well controlled - warmers back on to cool the tyre down slowly. Most 'race ' tyres suck real quickly if you don't look after them, although some are worse behaved than others.
The best behaviour a Race tyre (treaded or not) will ever do is the first hot one straight off warmers. Anything after that is second best, and the fast guys can pick a tyre that has been cycled more than a couple of times.

[TonyB]

Good thread Quasi! I was thinking of starting something similar, but I'll put in my question here.

I've been using 'pre-loved' Pirelli Super Corsa Pro's and such like, purely because they are cheap. Being a budget oriented racer, I can't really justify the expense of warmers, a generator, a spare set of wheels and wets. After my last crash, (lost the front at PotHole, Ruapuna, on cold tyres which had seen better days) I started thinking that maybe semi-slick race tyres weren't the best idea. Given that I have no choice but to use the same tyres in all conditions, hot/cold/wet, maybe I should go for something that offers a good compromise, with a decent tread... like a good street tyre. Anyone care to offer their thoughts on that?

Note that at the BEARS winter series, I do 1 practice, 6 races, and maybe an 'all in'....8 heat cycles...

Funnily enough, I went to speak to a tyre guy about it, and he was thinking the exact same thing after struggling with Super Corsa Pros in the cold and wet recently. The theory is- they are designed to work well when cold, and in the wet, and when its hot. They'll never have the ultimate grip of a specialist race tyre for any given condition, but they'll be close, and given the heat cycle factor, may perform better than a well used race tyre anyway.

[Quasievil]

Good thread Quasi! I was thinking of starting something similar, but I'll put in my question here.

I've been using 'pre-loved' Pirelli Super Corsa Pro's and such like, purely because they are cheap. Being a budget oriented racer, I can't really justify the expense of warmers, a generator, a spare set of wheels and wets. After my last crash, (lost the front at PotHole, Ruapuna, on cold tyres which had seen better days) I started thinking that maybe semi-slick race tyres weren't the best idea. Given that I have no choice but to use the same tyres in all conditions, hot/cold/wet, maybe I should go for something that offers a good compromise, with a decent tread... like a good street tyre. Anyone care to offer their thoughts on that?

Note that at the BEARS winter series, I do 1 practice, 6 races, and maybe an 'all in'....8 heat cycles...

Funnily enough, I went to speak to a tyre guy about it, and he was thinking the exact same thing after struggling with Super Corsa Pros in the cold and wet recently. The theory is- they are designed to work well when cold, and in the wet, and when its hot. They'll never have the ultimate grip of a specialist race tyre for any given condition, but they'll be close, and given the heat cycle factor, may perform better than a well used race tyre anyway.

Hiya Dude, I went through that process last year in that I wanted to have one tyre to do it all, I went with the Continental Race attack on the front and a street attack (race) on the rear, they should have done the lot however the tyre as awesome as it is in the dry was simply not up to it in the wet at race pace
End result is I went and got some wets and race slicks in the dry. I cant see one tyre doing it all sadly

[TonyB]

Hiya Dude, I went through that process last year in that I wanted to have one tyre to do it all, I went with the Continental Race attack on the front and a street attack (race) on the rear, they should have done the lot however the tyre as awesome as it is in the dry was simply not up to it in the wet at race pace
End result is I went and got some wets and race slicks in the dry. I cant see one tyre doing it all sadly Yep totally agree. Its just that I have been trying to make Race Techs or Super Corsa Pros do it all. So if I can only have one set of tyres, maybe I'd be better off with something a little less focussed and with more tread and ability to cope with the cold.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Tyre warmers should be banned for Motards far as I'm concerned.

They're fucking dirtbikes, and should be a cheap class to race. Having to have warmers to be competitive simply adds to the cost. Leave tyre warmers to the tar babies. I've never used them...and you can still scoot along at a good pace and have fun.

[Patch]

Tyre warmers should be banned for Motards far as I'm concerned.
that's just asking for trouble at the first corner :weird: - not to mention it will fuck your tyre life

can you not read??

[Quasievil]

Tyre warmers should be banned for Motards far as I'm concerned.

They're fucking dirtbikes, and should be a cheap class to race. Having to have warmers to be competitive simply adds to the cost. Leave tyre warmers to the tar babies. I've never used them...and you can still scoot along at a good pace and have fun.

yeah but its for sale mate, trade it for $8500 ish and sell me a nice GSXR and we have a deal !

I hear you on the tyre warmers bro, I do use them however

[Crasherfromwayback]

that's just asking for trouble at the first corner :weird: - not to mention it will fuck your tyre life

can you not read??

Is that right? Odd...I've been road racing dirtbikes for over 20 years and have never had any issues running towards the front without them. Hell...I've even won a few races. And fuck your tyre life? Really? How so mate? Yes I can read by the way. Thing is...if you're not using tyre warmers and you don't cook them...tyres actually last quite well mate. That much I do know.

Now like I said...they're fucking dirtbikes. If you get them a lil sideways so fucking what? Why add to the expense when without warmers etc...it's a lot more affordable?

By the way...waaay back when I raced 250 proddie and 883's...we weren't allowed warmers. Didn't cause any more accidents as we rode to the avail tyre grip...and they lasted probably better than tyres that've had warmers used.

[TonyB]

By the way...waaay back when I raced 250 proddie and 883's...we weren't allowed warmers. Didn't cause any more accidents as we rode to the avail tyre grip...

Good point. I believe my recent off happened because I had been using warmers, the day cooled down, we got called up to the dummy grid and sat there for some time, then did a warmup lap and sat on the grid for ages, and by the time I got going my tyres were getting cold. I rocked into the second corner used to the grip from hot tyres, and it wasn't there...

[sugilite]

I have raced on 2nd hand slicks for what seems forever. Different brands respond differently in regards to how they respond to multiple heat cycles. My findings are, Dunlops will go off say 10 to 15% after the first heat cycle then will stay consistent right down to the bottom of the wear dots. Pirellis lose up to say 20% of their initial grip after the 1st heat cycle and degrade further with each heat cycle. Metzlers are similar with extra poor side grip thrown in. Michilins are similar to dunlops, but when they let go, there is very little warning, where as dunlops will slide progressively and consistently.

One trick to reduce heat cycles is to simply put the tyre warmers on at the start of the day, and put them straight back on after each race, and hey presto...one heat cycle per race day. This is all for club racing folks.

Hope this info helps :yes:

[ajturbo]

i'm struggling to work out, why the big Q would need to even ask this question....

because... does he go fast enough to even warm up his tires??

(time for AJ to hide)

[Mishy]

. Thing is...if you're not using tyre warmers and you don't cook them...tyres actually last quite well mate. That much I do know.


By the way...waaay back when I raced 250 proddie and 883's...we weren't allowed warmers. Didn't cause any more accidents as we rode to the avail tyre grip...and they lasted probably better than tyres that've had warmers used.

Mate, things are a little different with tyre compounding now than they were 10 or 15 years ago !
For the sake of clarity - modern race compond tyres get eaten to death by rapid heat up or cool down. Not to mention the damage done to the surface of the tyre by being thrashed when below the lower limit of the designed operating temperature corridor. That's why all manufacturers list their race specific treaded tyres as "tyre warmer required"
The biggest advantage to running warmers (beyong that leery 1st turn on cold race tyres) is the lack of full heat cycles that damage the tyre, and also the gentle cool down once you switch the warmers off when they're still on the bike (we all do that, right ?)
If you run tyres like a Continental Race Street, then it's no problem, necause the are ver flexible when cold, and warm up quickly, but anything that is a compound marked race specific tyre simply has to have warmers to get the best performance and life out of them.
If you have super sticky tyres, do yourself a favour and get the best life and behaviour out of them by sticking the warmers on EVERY TIME YOU CAN ! Now repeat that 100 times so you don't forget :clap:

[ajturbo]

Yep totally agree. Its just that I have been trying to make Race Techs or Super Corsa Pros do it all. So if I can only have one set of tyres, maybe I'd be better off with something a little less focussed and with more tread and ability to cope with the cold.
why?
does it snow on race day or something???

[Mishy]

Yep totally agree. Its just that I have been trying to make Race Techs or Super Corsa Pros do it all. So if I can only have one set of tyres, maybe I'd be better off with something a little less focussed and with more tread and ability to cope with the cold.

That's a pretty good plan really :)
The winter stuff can be kinda tough on real sticky tyres, so picking something a bit more road orientated, and a bit more flexible for the cold times makes good sense. They would tend to give more predictable behavior, more resistance to tearing, and quicker warmup on a cold track.
Then you could go for the stickier stuff when summer comes back :headbang:

[Crasherfromwayback]

Mate, things are a little different with tyre compounding now than they were 10 or 15 years ago !
For the sake of clarity - modern race compond tyres get eaten to death by rapid heat up or cool down. Not to mention the damage done to the surface of the tyre by being thrashed when below the lower limit of the designed operating temperature corridor. That's why all manufacturers list their race specific treaded tyres as "tyre warmer required"
The biggest advantage to running warmers (beyong that leery 1st turn on cold race tyres) is the lack of full heat cycles that damage the tyre, and also the gentle cool down once you switch the warmers off when they're still on the bike (we all do that, right ?)
If you run tyres like a Continental Race Street, then it's no problem, necause the are ver flexible when cold, and warm up quickly, but anything that is a compound marked race specific tyre simply has to have warmers to get the best performance and life out of them.
If you have super sticky tyres, do yourself a favour and get the best life and behaviour out of them by sticking the warmers on EVERY TIME YOU CAN ! Now repeat that 100 times so you don't forget :clap:

Oooooohhh...I can feel the love! While I appreciate the fact that you feel the need to tell me I'm both old... and out of touch...I feel the need to tell you that I think you're full of shit.

You see...tyres have always been built to run best at the correct temp. It's just that we haven't always had that technology avail to us to keep them there...here in lil old NZ.

So we made do. Always have. You're a mummy's boy. Always will be. There was a guy by the name of Mike Webb...he raced TZ Yamaha's here in NZ. He beat up on the other guys and gals racing 250 two strokes here. He was fucking good. He never used tyre warmers when the 250 Gp racers in Europe had them. He's now highly thought of in the GP world. Shit...he may even be the tech inpsector!

So to say that tyres can't be used cold...or close to cold...is G A Fucking Y.

I used Yokohama 'U' Softs' for qualifying at the 250 proddie support races at manfield when the world superbikes were here. Were they supposed to be used with heaters? Yep. Still made it happen without them.

Too many people get too fucked in the head over things they think they need...but could do well without.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Good point. I believe my recent off happened because I had been using warmers, the day cooled down, we got called up to the dummy grid and sat there for some time, then did a warmup lap and sat on the grid for ages, and by the time I got going my tyres were getting cold. I rocked into the second corner used to the grip from hot tyres, and it wasn't there...

There are waaaaay too many people here...and in road racing in general...that think they need warmers...Ohlins...pit boards and sponsors to go fast.

Fuck off.

[Quasievil]

i'm struggling to work out, why the big Q would need to even ask this question....

because... does he go fast enough to even warm up his tires??

(time for AJ to hide)

Oh Funny guy eh ........you will keep till saturday

[Mishy]

hj
Oooooohhh...I can feel the love! While I appreciate the fact that you feel the need to tell me I'm both old... and out of touch...I feel the need to tell you that I think you're full of shit.
.

Yes, well I expected that. You do bite Pete :)

You can bluster all you like big fellah, and i'm old enough to know (and respect) Mike Webb thankyou.
You seem to take this personally, it's not - just a simple point of fact regarding the undeniable difference between the tyres you remember, and tyres that are built now.
While you may be (have been) quite happy to use anything in any condition, many people out there would be well advised to take sensible advice on how they use their tyres, and how to get the best out of them.
Many many test's by ourselves, and our friends in Europe have shown this to be true, and the compound designers i talk with regularely back this up.

I raced most of my time (like you) without warmers, and well remember punting 125's and 250's around on cold skittery slicks. The world changed when I got warmers for the first time, and tyres started to last better.
Good for the confidence,and good for the pocket - fun fun fun !!! :scooter:

All that, and not a single expletive :yes:

[Crasherfromwayback]

hj

Yes, well I expected that. You do bite Pete :)


I raced most of my time (like you) without warmers, and well remember punting 125's and 250's around on cold skittery slicks. The world changed when I got warmers for the first time, and tyres started to last better.
Good for the confidence,and good for the pocket - fun fun fun !!! :scooter:

All that, and not a single expletive :yes:

That's because as old as I am...I've still got my own teeth!

I like that post...although I reckon it'd be way better with some nasty words.

I mean...if you had a great race...that'd sound ok. BUT...if you had a fucking fantastic race...that'd sound far better (to me anyway).

My point is not really about tyre warmers and modern tyres anyway...because believe it of not...I'm still in touch with what's going on. It's more that I think for motards...it's all good without them. They're smelly old dirtbikes after all.

[Mishy]

That's because as old as I am...I've still got my own teeth!

I like that post...although I reckon it'd be way better with some nasty words.

I mean...if you had a great race...that'd sound ok. BUT...if you had a fucking fantastic race...that'd sound far better (to me anyway).

My point is not really about tyre warmers and modern tyres anyway...because believe it of not...I'm still in touch with what's going on. It's more that I think for motards...it's all good without them. They're smelly old dirtbikes after all.

A bit like the big bad wolf . . . . . . . . . . :devil2:

And yes, the fucken awesome races are FAR more momorable that the pretty good ones. Sometimes (for me) facts get in the way of being real interesting !

As far as Motards go, I agree that there are some fundamental differences between them and road racers. The "smelly old dirt bikes" just weren't designed for that tarmac stuff, and they stress the carcases and compounds differently due to the lack of weight, horsepower, and suspension loading. This makes things a little different (ask Pete Sayle) for the motards, but the fundamentals still apply to tyre behaviour.
My biggest question would be why so many peolpe choose tyres for Motards that are designed for something different, and will struggle to work with the dirt bike on the tarmac.
My belief is that a good choice would be a tyre that has a more supple carcase, and more flexible compound - more hyper sport road than genuine race. Most race tyres are designed for 600's, superbikes, or 250GP bikes, and they have a carcase made from rayon rather than the weaker nylon carcases of the road tyres.
Having said that, i think that whatever your choice, correct use of warmers will almost certainly help with every aspect of tyre behaviour, but that you could choose your tyres wisely if you don't have warmers, and still get great grip, easy warmup, and good life - even if outright grip is slightly reduced.
It's all about understanding how these things work.
One day i'll write a "novel" on it - that'll really bore the shit out of you !

[Crasherfromwayback]

A bit like the big bad wolf . . . . . . . . . . :devil2:
One day i'll write a "novel" on it - that'll really bore the shit out of you !

Funnily enough...most of my mates call me Ren. You know...the foul mouthed lil Chihuahua. It's a fair call.

What you've said 'bout tyres is not in the slightest bit boring. Whilst I often hurl abuse and insults...it's normally because I'm looking for reactions and answers. Informed answers I like.

If you do write said novel...please include full page colour pictures of nude chickies and don't forget the profanities.

[Mishy]

If you do write said novel...please include full page colour pictures of nude chickies and don't forget the profanities.

perhaps you could tell where to find these pictures . . . . . . . . :innocent:

[Crasherfromwayback]

perhaps you could tell where to find these pictures . . . . . . . . :innocent:

Hopefully the memory stick in ya camera.

[Quasievil]

Fuck you two are talking crap.

"Dirty old dirt bikes" WTF!!! my Motard (and half the field) are probably more advanced technically that half the sportsbikes racing, as far as mine goes its a factory built KTM 525SMR (smr = super moto racer)ie it ain't a dirty old dirtbike its a highly engineered Motard built for Tarmac and some off road dirt sections.

Tyre warmers despite ya ravings offer an advantage so why the hell wouldnt we use them? suggesting we shouldnt on the basis of "they are dirty ole dirt bikes" is simply stupid frankly $250 bucks for an advantage is a cheap advantage.

lastly there is limited options for Motard tyres available, you can buy some specific Metzler drifts or import some, thats about it, most guys go with a sportsbike slick and they work fine for NZ style of racing. I have used Continental race attacks, Pirelli Slicks and currently on Pirelli Dragons, they all work fine and as a racer I will use any tyre I fucking like as long as it does the job well enough.

[ajturbo]

Fuck you two are talking crap.

"Dirty old dirt bikes" WTF!!! my Motard (and half the field) are probably more advanced technically that half the sportsbikes racing, as far as mine goes its a factory built KTM 525SMR (smr = super moto racer)ie it ain't a dirty old dirtbike its a highly engineered Motard built for Tarmac and some off road dirt sections.

Tyre warmers despite ya ravings offer an advantage so why the hell wouldnt we use them? suggesting we shouldnt on the basis of "they are dirty ole dirt bikes" is simply stupid frankly $250 bucks for an advantage is a cheap advantage.

lastly there is limited options for Motard tyres available, you can buy some specific Metzler drifts or import some, thats about it, most guys go with a sportsbike slick and they work fine for NZ style of racing. I have used Continental race attacks, Pirelli Slicks and currently on Pirelli Dragons, they all work fine and as a racer I will use any tyre I fucking like as long as it does the job well enough.
hahahah... i think they were just winding you up there matey...

hope your bring the oil this time!!!

[Quasievil]

hahahah... i think they were just winding you up there matey...

hope your bring the oil this time!!!

lol Yeah I know that dude, just adding some fuel for further discussion.

What oil ? I aint racing anyway tomorrow, Im there tho

[ajturbo]

lol Yeah I know that dude, just adding some fuel for further discussion.

What oil ? I aint racing anyway tomorrow, Im there tho
now i know YOUR going to be there... i wont be:spanking:

sorry matey, would love to catch up over a beer, but it just not a good time this week.....

hope to see you at manfeild?

racing your DIRT bike?

[Quasievil]

hope to see you at manfeild?

racing your DIRT bike?

lol dont you freckin start Buell rider!!

Will be at Manfield not intending to race yet tho

[Crasherfromwayback]

Fuck you two are talking crap.

"Dirty old dirt bikes" WTF!!! my Motard (and half the field) are probably more advanced technically that half the sportsbikes racing, as far as mine goes its a factory built KTM 525SMR (smr = super moto racer)ie it ain't a dirty old dirtbike its a highly engineered Motard built for Tarmac and some off road dirt sections.


Me? Never! Hasn't your poxy old KTM still got a carb? Jesus...even my garden variety dirty old dirt bike is injected! Might even buy some 17" rims for it. Don't think I'll bother with the tyre warmers though.

Did you see how dirty all the bikes were at Taupo Sat? Disgusting.

P:bleh:

[Robert Taylor]

Mate, things are a little different with tyre compounding now than they were 10 or 15 years ago !
For the sake of clarity - modern race compond tyres get eaten to death by rapid heat up or cool down. Not to mention the damage done to the surface of the tyre by being thrashed when below the lower limit of the designed operating temperature corridor. That's why all manufacturers list their race specific treaded tyres as "tyre warmer required"
The biggest advantage to running warmers (beyong that leery 1st turn on cold race tyres) is the lack of full heat cycles that damage the tyre, and also the gentle cool down once you switch the warmers off when they're still on the bike (we all do that, right ?)
If you run tyres like a Continental Race Street, then it's no problem, necause the are ver flexible when cold, and warm up quickly, but anything that is a compound marked race specific tyre simply has to have warmers to get the best performance and life out of them.
If you have super sticky tyres, do yourself a favour and get the best life and behaviour out of them by sticking the warmers on EVERY TIME YOU CAN ! Now repeat that 100 times so you don't forget :clap:

EXACTLY,and this is the 21st century although I note some people ( including one or two in high places) struggle with that fact. Peter Goddard was very interesting on the subject of tyre heat cycles, tyre warmers and also preheating the rear shocks on cold days. As approx 80 attendees of his recent suspension seminars will attest!
In most walks of life everything now seems to operate within finer margins, that is no different with motorcycle road racing. If motard riders want to use tyre warmers let em!

[Crasherfromwayback]

. If motard riders want to use tyre warmers let em!

I don't think it's about letting them if they want to...it's about (in my eyes) trying to keep costs down if you want to be competitive in what should be (once again in my eyes) a cheap class to race in.

You wanna run tyre warmers,shock warmers...have brolly dollies and pit boards...sweet as. Go and play with the big boys and girls. On road racing bikes.

[Robert Taylor]

There are waaaaay too many people here...and in road racing in general...that think they need warmers...Ohlins...pit boards and sponsors to go fast.

Fuck off.

Heck that puts Mike Webb off your christmas card list then. As his bike tuner during his years on TZ250s in NZ I can attest to the fact that he was using Ohlins rear shocks and we built some huge pitboards for him. He was also at one time sponsored by Mens Warehouse, a clothing company. His preparation was also impeccable.
With all respect to Mike he wasnt naturally talented but worked really hard at it, had good machinery and aftermarket parts and worked also at attracting sponsors. That is so detestable!!!!!!!!!!!!! ( It might pay to be a little more in command of the facts or at least pick an example of a very talented rider on very average machinery )

[Crasherfromwayback]

Heck that puts Mike Webb off your christmas card list then. As his bike tuner during his years on TZ250s in NZ I can attest to the fact that he was using Ohlins rear shocks and we built some huge pitboards for him. He was also at one time sponsored by Mens Warehouse, a clothing company. His preparation was also impeccable.
With all respect to Mike he wasnt naturally talented but worked really hard at it, had good machinery and aftermarket parts and worked also at attracting sponsors. That is so detestable!!!!!!!!!!!!! ( It might pay to be a little more in command of the facts or at least pick an example of a very talented rider on very average machinery )

Ummmm....errrr...right. Think you've missed the message Robert. When I said Mike was racing (and winning NZ championships WITHOUT TYRE WARMERS)...He was. The post regarding others thinking they need tyre warmers...pit boards and sponsorship I can't recall saying Mike didn't have or use those. I could be wrong...but I can't be arsed to go back and check. I'm sure you'll quote me if that's what I said.

So then..the tyre warmer debate. '05' wasn't THAT long ago was it? So I'm not decades or generations out of touch. But in '05' I was able to run at the front in a motard race (Wanganui) against bikes with half as much again engine as I had without tyre warmers. So I can back up my argument with fact. Had a stock shock in there too. Think the reason I ended up eating hospital food for five days was that I forgot my fucking pit board.

[Robert Taylor]

Ummmm....errrr...right. Think you've missed the message Robert. When I said Mike was racing (and winning NZ championships WITHOUT TYRE WARMERS)...He was. The post regarding others thinking they need tyre warmers...pit boards and sponsorship I can't recall saying Mike didn't have or use those. I could be wrong...but I can't be arsed to go back and check. I'm sure you'll quote me if that's what I said.

So then..the tyre warmer debate. '05' wasn't THAT long ago was it? So I'm not decades or generations out of touch. But in '05' I was able to run at the front in a motard race (Wanganui) against bikes with half as much again engine as I had without tyre warmers. So I can back up my argument with fact. Had a stock shock in there too. Think the reason I ended up eating hospital food for five days was that I forgot my fucking pit board.

No I understand the message and its intent perfectly.
You have ( thankyou ) now quoted your own example of a talented rider being able to run at the front without ''aids'' on a stock bike. Imagine if there was a rider of exactly the same talent as you on that same day with the same bike but he had further ''aids''. I.e tyre warmers, pit board and very well sorted suspension ( not neccessarily Ohlins ). Id lay money on whod be at the front. Funnily enough a ''everything should be stock'' guy from MNZ delighted in telling me that a certain European rider was able to run at the front in the first 250 race at last years Taupo MX international, he crashed too and ended up in hospital.
Tyre warmers have often been academic at Wanganui because of the often extended time you are left languishing at the dummy grid, unless you are prepared to cart up stands, warmers and generators.

[R1madness]

For the people that like to use race comp tires on the street.

I have been usin Pirelli and Dunlop ex race tyres on my road bikes for years. They work just fine and dont suffer the "heat cycle" problems that most people seem to be hung up about. In fact on the street it is hard to get them up to full temp unless you are going mental. I get about 3500km from a rear and more from a front but i change them as a pair (because thats how i buy them). You need to keep them at the correct pressures (softer than you think) to get the best out of them but they feel a little vague when cold. They are ok in the wet as long as you have a smooth riding style. I have even ridden home from the BRASS MONKEY RALLY in the SNOW 2 up on a set o super corsas on my old R1. It was ok even tho they closed the road while we were on it....
They dont really work out cheaper than good new road tyres (in terms of $ pre km) but the confidence level they provide when pumping along your fav road is fantastic.
Negative points to remember are
They are more prone to puntures. You really need to keep an eye on the pressures. The last 2 mm of tread will disapear without warning. They feel funny when cold.

Hand cut slicks are a different story......

[svr]

For the people that like to use race comp tires on the street.

They dont really work out cheaper than good new road tyres (in terms of $ pre km) but the confidence level they provide when pumping along your fav road is fantastic.
Negative points to remember are
They are more prone to puntures. You really need to keep an eye on the pressures. The last 2 mm of tread will disapear without warning. They feel funny when cold.

Hand cut slicks are a different story......

Race tyres on the road - why would you use them?
You're right in saying that in the dry they aren't terrible (although you have to be mindful of their temperatures). But they are crap with standing water.
On the road you'd be much better off with sporting road tyres that would be operating within their design parameters.

[TonyB]

That's a pretty good plan really :)
The winter stuff can be kinda tough on real sticky tyres, so picking something a bit more road orientated, and a bit more flexible for the cold times makes good sense. They would tend to give more predictable behavior, more resistance to tearing, and quicker warmup on a cold track.
Then you could go for the stickier stuff when summer comes back :headbang: It all sounds logical to me. Lets hope its right because I just fitted a set of sticky road tyres to my race bike. Paying retail for tyres is....painful. I ended up chosing the tyre based on recomendations from people I trust, and comments I have heard from people about how well they grip in the cold and wet. I got pilot Powers- 2CT dual compound for the front and a standard one for the back because there wasn't an option.

I also went back to the 4.5 inch rear wheel and a 160/60 tyre (which is why I couldn't get the 2CT). This is standard for my bike. I had fitted a 5.5" wheel so I could use second hand 180/55's. One possible downside of changing back is that the radius to the outside of the Michellin 160/60 is about 8mm less than the Pirrelli 180/55- so my gearing will now be lower and the rear of the bike will be 8mm lower.....knowing me I wont even notice ;)

Anyone wondering why the hell I did this...I hope I'm right. Just remember I use one set of tyres in ALL situations. With some of the all day winter race meetings here, it can be pretty cold for practice and the first race- it was 2°C for practice at one meeting I did last year. A couple of weeks ago a days racing was held in pouring rain and sleet with the temp never bettering 4°C. I don't think any of the tyre manufacturers are designing race rubber for situations like that...

[R1madness]

But they are crap with standing water.
.

actually they are quite good in the wet. Several of the top racers have used a treaded tire on a damp to wet track with great sucess when a wet would be chewed up and a slick too greasy.

[svr]

actually they are quite good in the wet. Several of the top racers have used a treaded tire on a damp to wet track with great sucess when a wet would be chewed up and a slick too greasy.

Thanks for the correction!

[Robert Taylor]

It all sounds logical to me. Lets hope its right because I just fitted a set of sticky road tyres to my race bike. Paying retail for tyres is....painful. I ended up chosing the tyre based on recomendations from people I trust, and comments I have heard from people about how well they grip in the cold and wet. I got pilot Powers- 2CT dual compound for the front and a standard one for the back because there wasn't an option.

I also went back to the 4.5 inch rear wheel and a 160/60 tyre (which is why I couldn't get the 2CT). This is standard for my bike. I had fitted a 5.5" wheel so I could use second hand 180/55's. One possible downside of changing back is that the radius to the outside of the Michellin 160/60 is about 8mm less than the Pirrelli 180/55- so my gearing will now be lower and the rear of the bike will be 8mm lower.....knowing me I wont even notice ;)

Anyone wondering why the hell I did this...I hope I'm right. Just remember I use one set of tyres in ALL situations. With some of the all day winter race meetings here, it can be pretty cold for practice and the first race- it was 2°C for practice at one meeting I did last year. A couple of weeks ago a days racing was held in pouring rain and sleet with the temp never bettering 4°C. I don't think any of the tyre manufacturers are designing race rubber for situations like that...

The fact we race in such temperatures is something I am painfully aware of and its probably a fair assumption to make that we more often race in colder temps than in Europe and North America. Their winters are of course relatively fierce so they just shut down over the winter months.
So we experience more cold shear issues and some of the solutions are in fact counterintuitive. Like for example firmer springing and damping calibration to ''walk'' the tyres more to generate heat. Along with harder compound tyres.

[TonyB]

I'm Hijacking the thread again....
well its early days yet, but I did the first race meeting on the street tyres today. (As an aside, after 3 months off following a decent crash I was nervous as all hell...)

Anyway, so far I'm pretty stoked with my humble Pilot Powers. We were racing on the Ruapuna B track (1.3km I think), it got to 8°C and was overcast and dry. If the tyres were still very slightly warm before heading out (maybe 20°C), I was happy to get my knee down during the warmup lap. I have never done that with race tyres unless they were off the warmers.

They only slid a couple of times, but when they did it was very easy to deal with. I honestly thought there was more grip available than I used to get in similar situations with Pirrelli race tyres. So far so good!