Engine oil analysis

[Mystic13]

Re: Engine oil analysis.

I want to get my engine oil analysed. I know this stuff is readily available for diesels etc. Is there someone around who would be good to go to to address this specifically for motorcycles.

I'm wondering if the standard analysis for specific elements would be okay. Or do we have engine linings etc that they wouldn't do detection for.

I thought about throwing this in the racing forum because I guess someone may be using analysis on an ongoing basis.

So can you recommend anyone for motorcycle engine oil analysis.


Cheers

[Warr]

SKF Bearings have a division that does this. Give your local shop a call :)

[CookMySock]

My Dad has a colour machine if thats any help. He's pretty good with the divining stick too. Fuck he might even be able to put the oil back to good-as-new!

Steve

[Blackbird]

If you repeatedly use a particular brand of oil, that oil manufacturer may help you for a small fee. When I was technical maintenance manager with Carter Holt Harvey, Mobil (our principal lubricant supplier) carried out spectographic wear debris analysis for both rotating process plant and our automotive fleet. We sent samples on a more or less fixed interval and they would send back statistics of the debris in parts per million by broad chemical composition. Molybdenum would indicate pinion wear, copper/lead for bushings and plain bearings etc and we would graph trends as a guide to preventive maintenance. We did have the advantage of knowing what was inside the equipment though!

However, if your interval between oil changes is going to be fairly short (e.g racing), the use of wear debris analysis is questionable. I'd suggest that you look up the NZ websites of the major lubricant suppliers for a technical contact and ask for more detailed advice. I've been retired for a while so I can't suggest any personal contacts in Mobil any more.

Cheers,

Geoff

[HungusMaximist]

Interesting, generally speaking, if I was a normal commuter and an occasional weekend warriror on my bike, would I even need to worry about analysing my oil?

Be good to know what goes on but in what cases would you need to start analysing your oil?

[Mystic13]

You might want to analyse it if you think that the engine is not right and you're concerned that it's dying. I'm guessing it'll be cheaper than pulling the engine to pieces and also cheaper in terms of planning a re-build.

I don't know how possible all of that is and I'll no doubt find out soon enough. As someone mentioned above oil analysis is already used to determine if machines or trucks need servicing.

Of course in most instances I'd think you'd be tracking trends. The beauty of course is the type of material found tells you where it came from.

That's the theory as best as I can tell at the moment. The reason for a motorcycle engine oil analysing person is that they'll be able to make more sense of the data for my oil. I hope.

[Kickaha]

Goughs do it, pm Buddha#81 and he will tell you how to go about it

[Warr]

PM Quazi ... he is an Oil Man :)

[Quasievil]

We sell Kits for oil analysis for many customers, mostly Transport and industrial, about $400 for a kit of ten, we register your machine you get a bar coded label in the kit for each sample, you then take a sample and send in to us for a test (done in Melbourne) we do about 300 a day, you get back all soughts of figures relating to levels of metals and Oxidisation etc, which is all good but often meaningless unless you have a specific set of informations to relate it to, the normal way is to monitor carefully looking at the metals contents at first then after a few sample results you get a bit of a standard to measure against, so for example if one of the test lines shows a marked increase in a particular area then you may have cause for concern.
We (MOBIL) generally list a Attention mark next to a concern (a raised activity) but its for you to figure out what it means.

There is many many factors that can upset the system and not all relating to your machine, ie enviromental impacts can increase certain oil trats being measured, its not a easy way to assess a engines issues, but another tool to be used along with others, collected information then used as a indicator of machines condition.

Not a one stop simple solution mate.

[Motu]

I think there is only one lab in NZ doing oil analysis,in Wellington....those who say they do probably send them there....or to Aust as Quasi does.I know the old Dominion rerefinery used to do them (been in the lab) but they are long gone.A bit pointless for racing as the oil isn't in for long (or shouldn't be),it's mainly used for engines doing long running...trucks,plant machinery (mines etc) trains,ships etc.Most diesel oils these days are good for over 70,000km OCI,but you don't just run them for that long without having a look.

[LBD]

Re: Engine oil analysis.

I want to get my engine oil analysed. I know this stuff is readily available for diesels etc. Is there someone around who would be good to go to to address this specifically for motorcycles.

I'm wondering if the standard analysis for specific elements would be okay. Or do we have engine linings etc that they wouldn't do detection for.

Cheers


OIL ANALYSIS is a great tool for condition monitoring oil compartments. However there is one particular proviso...To get value you trend 2 or more results over time and one sample does not a trend make. Taking one sample in isolation is only of value if you think something is wrong, and by that stage cutting open the oil filter and inspecting the contents will tell you pretty much the same thing.

What to do? If you wish to be a fastidious owner and sample oil then you will want the most accurate results possible, so....

1) Try to drain and change oil at the same interval every time give or take.
1A) try to use the same oil every time.
2) You will need to know the KM's of the last oil change so you know how many Km's on this oil sample (How much work the oil and engine has done)
3) record how much oil you add during the oil drain interval.(Adding oil diluets the sample, especially if in 3 oil change periods you are agging 2 or 3 times as much as you are now)(Oil consumption should then be included on the report you receive from the lab)
4) Collect a good Sample....Go for a ride and warm the engine (Other wise much of the partical contaminate will have settled out of the oil. Clean around the sump drain thoroughly (You dont want a result contaminated with cow shit or asphalt.) Drain the oil and catch a sample mid flow (Not start or end)

Analyzing the sample....what to get done. Elemental analysis and particle count. Why both? Elemental analysis will generall only give results for >5 micron particles. A particale count will will break down the number and size of the particles.

Between the two of those over 2 or more results you will start to build up a good wear profile of your engine.

What else? FTIR testing is often included at the lab and checks the condition of the oil it self, the additive package, oxidation nitration coolant contamination etc.

Where to go in NZ? I have used GGH(Goughs) and Cat for many years also have used Mobil and Wear Check as well as an independant ferrography service.

Value for money and mainly for convenience sake in NZ, the product from GGH would be my selection. From the Cat store you can buy a sample kit, complete with postage, analyzing and reporting built in. Tomorrow I will have the NZ$ cost and will post this.

And if you want to get really sexy, when you have two or more results in the system, you can request a log in to Oil Commander and look at your oil samples, then you can do clever things like Graph and break down wear counts per KM etc.

There is a start for you, feel free to ask any further questions on the subject.

As a parting shot....the new oil you put in your engine is not clean. It will have a high particle count out of the bottle. Sample that and see. Cure? filter new oil through a 3 or 4 micron absolute filter before putting it in your bike.

[Mystic13]

Thanks LBD. That's a huge amount of info. So it looks like I'll need a minimum of 2 samples. I'm about to drop one out now. So I need to do the next one at the same km's.

I can feel the motor deteriorating and know that the manufacturer world wide was initially replacing these motors and subsequently rebuilding them with a fair few done before 50,000km's. The feel of this motor at 40k is much worse than 30k. Unfortunately the manufacturer has a policy of deny, deny, deny. Even in the phase of patently obvious faults in my experience to date. Then when they get approval to fix they'll stand their and tell you yes it was bad and definitely needed doing. It's like dealing with a 5 Year old. They seem to think if they stick their heads in the sand then there are no problems.

I'm just heading in for another fight and I thought this may be a cheaper option than getting the motor pulled down, visually inspected and parts measured. Because sadly even though they've replaced and rebuilt dozens of motors with the same characteristics as my engine they are denying there is anything wrong with the motor and the deterioration in vibes is stated as completely normal. They also stand there and say they know of no engines being rebuilt or replaced. Really the funniest people to deal with.

A rider can go in the day before with a problem. You go in the next day and they will tell you they have never heard of it and no one else has mentioned it to them. Personally I think they believe in fairies and magical fairy dust as well.

So am I out of luck and in for the strip down. Or should I get a sample done anyway. And I guess have a look in the filter as well?

Cheers.

[LBD]

Thanks LBD. That's a huge amount of info. So it looks like I'll need a minimum of 2 samples. I'm about to drop one out now. So I need to do the next one at the same km's.

I can feel the motor deteriorating and know that the manufacturer world wide was initially replacing these motors and subsequently rebuilding them with a fair few done before 50,000km's. The feel of this motor at 40k is much worse than 30k. Unfortunately the manufacturer has a policy of deny, deny, deny. Even in the phase of patently obvious faults in my experience to date. Then when they get approval to fix they'll stand their and tell you yes it was bad and definitely needed doing. It's like dealing with a 5 Year old. They seem to think if they stick their heads in the sand then there are no problems.

I'm just heading in for another fight and I thought this may be a cheaper option than getting the motor pulled down, visually inspected and parts measured. Because sadly even though they've replaced and rebuilt dozens of motors with the same characteristics as my engine they are denying there is anything wrong with the motor and the deterioration in vibes is stated as completely normal. They also stand there and say they know of no engines being rebuilt or replaced. Really the funniest people to deal with.

A rider can go in the day before with a problem. You go in the next day and they will tell you they have never heard of it and no one else has mentioned it to them. Personally I think they believe in fairies and magical fairy dust as well.

So am I out of luck and in for the strip down. Or should I get a sample done anyway. And I guess have a look in the filter as well?

Cheers.

I just recieved an e-mail back from GGH, $40 complete.

Shortly I will know if I I have a contact name for you....

Cheers

[Mystic13]

Hi LBD

Thanks for the PM and name. It's worth the test just to see what it's like.


Cheers.