Correct riding position?

[wbks]

I know this is probably a little early for such a slow noob to be pondering but I was just wondering (for next time I'm on a track) the "correct" cornering position according to you racers? I get the general idea that (as told by any racer I ever asked) you are supposed to have your lid out off the side as much as your butt to avoid the twisted riding position and look through the corner. The only opposite example I can think of is Andrew Stroud, but it seems to work for him. But then there is the amount you should hang off... I've read on this site that it's pointless (or at least impractical) to hang off any more than one cheek, but on the other side there is that the more you hang off, the more you can straighten it up and hence get on the gas harder and earlier. Could someone enlighten me on this? Thanks!

[LBD]

Have a look at Mystic13 's public profile...

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/member.php?u=18371

[Two Smoker]

Check out my profile... Racers all have slightly differing styles. Andrew is one extreme of all elbows and knees, but he is also bloody tall! I rotate alot of my body around towards the front. Where Jay Lawrence hangs off like a monkey. If you are a track newbie, focus on track postioning, throttle application, and braking points. Then when comfortable, move onto body positioning and weighting the pegs etc...

[mikeey01]

Have a look at Mystic13 's public profile...

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/member.php?u=18371

That is one impressive pic!

[t3mp0r4ry nzr]

dont worry too much about the technicalities dude, just get out there and ride! the general idea with moving the body to the inside of the corner, is the reduction in bike lean than not hanging off. by all means hang-off, just dont get could up too much in the hows. many guys in motogp and sbk have a style that many would say is plain wrong. this the same as your stroud example.:Punk:

[wbks]

Its a sign of needing to ride more when a thought about your chemistry homework turns into you making a thread about whether your riding position was correct the last time you rode...

[quallman1234]

Its a sign of needing to ride more when a thought about your chemistry homework turns into you making a thread about whether your riding position was correct the last time you rode...

Do what is comfortable. I generally tell people, when you start to scrap things you need to start to hang off.
Do what Two Smoker suggests first.

[discotex]

You're getting rather close to countersteering/wave/what tyres/etc territory here ;)

There's the theoretical optimum then there's plenty of people who manage totally unlikely techniques. Probably depends where you carry your weight and how you setup your suspension/rake/trail/ride height/etc.

Just play around and try to avoid getting way twisted up.

The best place to start is bum on seat, balls of feet on pegs and only move your upper body as per the old "kiss the mirrors" deal. Add the arse slide in later when that is natural.

[t3mp0r4ry nzr]

if you were to ask 100 racers, you may well get 100 different opinions.

dont get get caught up in the detail. even the well meaning advice of riding on balls of feet isnt neccessarily correct - if you were to think of the foot peg as a pivot point, you would get more leverage and strength (thus control) with the arch of your foot on the peg. again, some really good riders ride with the archs on the peg, some with their balls (!?haha) on the peg.

there is not a one-size fits all approach, as commonly mooted on the net.
the racing world is full of "unorthidox" techniques. you could take this to mean that "technique" is not the be-all, end-all.
know what I'm saying?

take an active interest in studying different, good riders by all means, just no need to get caught up in the detail.

The advice of quallman is sound. You cannot go fast on a bike that you are not comfortable on.

[Tony.OK]

Yep I'd have to agree with Temp on this subject..............
For me I started trying the ass off while I was still road riding and it just felt wrong for a long time, then I found it became more natural.
I used to hang off too much just trying to get that 1st knee down experience and it actually slowed me down if anything, trying too hard keeps your concentration on the wrong inputs, ya just gotta feel your way to being comfortable to start with.
Now I'm lucky if I only hang 1 cheek off, and dont conciously put my knee out but it still hits the deck, I also found after watching the SBK's on telly that alot of them hook their outside foot on the peg with their heel, felt odd to start with but now its habit and much more stable for me.
I think with all the track time now available its easier to try different techniques without worrying about everything as you would on the roads. Just try one thing at a time and see how it feels, you'll soon develop your own style:niceone:

[wharfy]

There are almost as many answers to this as there is to which breed makes the best "pig dog" ? (anything with a bit of pit bull in it).
But if you want to see smooth riding and a position that makes the rider look like they are part of the bike, check out photo's of "Flame" .

To start with any position where the bike is between you and the track is pretty good :)

[Sparrowhawk]

Have a look at Mystic13 's public profile...

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/member.php?u=18371

That is awesome! Did Mystic stay on the bike after that?



There's the theoretical optimum then there's plenty of people who manage totally unlikely techniques. Probably depends where you carry your weight and how you setup your suspension/rake/trail/ride height/etc.


I've been wondering for a while, what exactly IS Rake & Trail??

[Two Smoker]

dont get get caught up in the detail. even the well meaning advice of riding on balls of feet isnt neccessarily correct - if you were to think of the foot peg as a pivot point, you would get more leverage and strength (thus control) with the arch of your foot on the peg. again, some really good riders ride with the archs on the peg, some with their balls (!?haha) on the peg.

Wrong. Youre not leaning far enough over if you have both arches on the peg and you get better wieght and force by using your ball on the inside peg due to body postion.

Basic racing position step by step. Just before or during braking move you arse off the seat towards the side you will be leaning to. Push down on the pegs with your feet during braking. Keep your arms slightly bent at all times. Move your inside ball onto the peg. Keep your outside foot, arch on the peg. Weight this inside foot to aid in turn in. Use your knee to gauge lean, and once you know your angle, lift your knee slightly (you dont want to put alot of weight on your knee). As you exit the corner weight the outside peg to aid in righting the bike and traction.

But before you do all this you will save more time just on braking points, track postioning, lines and throttle application.

[FROSTY]

A bit of advice I got from an old racer years ago. Do what feels comfortable to YOU.
TS in hs last sentence hit nail on head . Basicly theres other stuff way more important to worry about.

ACTUALLY --NAHH FUGGIT for RIGHT NOW don't worry about any of that shit. Go out go round and round and have fun.
You will leant more in 10 minutes out there maybee following a lines bike than you will in 10 years on the internet.

[Morcs]

my profile pic is pretty good too.

[t3mp0r4ry nzr]

Wrong. Youre not leaning far enough over if you have both arches on the peg and you get better wieght and force by using your ball on the inside peg due to body postion.

so troy baylis is wrong too?

[Two Smoker]

so troy baylis is wrong too?

Nup, troy is right... Sorry you are wrong...
http://www.motorcyclenews.com/upload/212792/images/Troy-Bayliss.jpg

Looks like his toe is on the peg to me?

[Shaun P]

Wrong. Youre not leaning far enough over if you have both arches on the peg and you get better wieght and force by using your ball on the inside peg due to body postion.

Basic racing position step by step. Just before or during braking move you arse off the seat towards the side you will be leaning to. Push down on the pegs with your feet during braking. Keep your arms slightly bent at all times. Move your inside ball onto the peg. Keep your outside foot, arch on the peg. Weight this inside foot to aid in turn in. Use your knee to gauge lean, and once you know your angle, lift your knee slightly (you dont want to put alot of weight on your knee). As you exit the corner weight the outside peg to aid in righting the bike and traction.

But before you do all this you will save more time just on braking points, track postioning, lines and throttle application.

Good point

[t3mp0r4ry nzr]

Nup, troy is right... Sorry you are wrong...
http://www.motorcyclenews.com/upload/212792/images/Troy-Bayliss.jpg

Looks like his toe is on the peg to me?

Troy often is dragging toes on right handers from trailing the back brake and when he does this he has his arch of foot on the inside peg. you can also have you arch on the inside peg and lift the inside of your foot to get stick your knee out.

ANYWAY, this proves my point perfectly. it is all subjective and there is no one way of doing it. so asking for advice on how to do it is counter contructive as the difference of opinion is varied.

[discotex]

I've been wondering for a while, what exactly IS Rake & Trail??

Best explanation I could find within 49.7 seconds.

http://www.sportrider.com/tech/146_0310_art/index.html

[Mishy]

I think i would agree with most of the ground covered in this thread.
One point i want to make is to help you avoid a classic newby mistake.
Whan you do mess with hanging off (and you should, it's fun) make sure you move your body weight WITH YOUR FEET ! most guys and girls trying to hang off for the first time try to move themselves around by pulling on the 'bars to get themselves moved from one side to the other. It creates instability because you make a whole bunch of steering inputs while you are doing it, and it upsets the bike.
Sit wherever is comfortable, keep your elbows low, and move with your feet - the balls of your feet :)

[johan]

When you hang off guys, do you have most of the weight on the seat, or using the legs to support you self?

Did that question make sense?

I find myself supporting me with the legs. I'm not sure that's a good thing to do. For one thing, it takes energy.

[Benk]

When you hang off guys, do you have most of the weight on the seat, or using the legs to support you self?

Did that question make sense?

I find myself supporting me with the legs. I'm not sure that's a good thing to do. For one thing, it takes energy.

Yes, lowers your center of gravity, not that Im an expert. It also helps with smoothing out the transition between corners I find. But yes, the legs get tired.

[Two Smoker]

When you hang off guys, do you have most of the weight on the seat, or using the legs to support you self?

Did that question make sense?

I find myself supporting me with the legs. I'm not sure that's a good thing to do. For one thing, it takes energy.

Racing bikes is tough work! Thats right though. Most of your weight is on the inside peg. The only time you sit on the seat is on the smooth straights. Bumpy straights and you should be weighting the pegs to use your legs as extra 'suspension'

[Shaun P]

I think i would agree with most of the ground covered in this thread.
One point i want to make is to help you avoid a classic newby mistake.
Whan you do mess with hanging off (and you should, it's fun) make sure you move your body weight WITH YOUR FEET ! most guys and girls trying to hang off for the first time try to move themselves around by pulling on the 'bars to get themselves moved from one side to the other. It creates instability because you make a whole bunch of steering inputs while you are doing it, and it upsets the bike.
Sit wherever is comfortable, keep your elbows low, and move with your feet - the balls of your feet :)

Yep and another good point I found for stability when moving is to keep 1 knee in contact with the fuel tank at all times during transition eg hanging off to the left and wanting to move back upright or to the right - bring your left knee firmly to the tank then move body weight.

[johan]

Racing bikes is tough work! Thats right though. Most of your weight is on the inside peg. The only time you sit on the seat is on the smooth straights. Bumpy straights and you should be weighting the pegs to use your legs as extra 'suspension'

It felt quite natural for me so I've continued doing it. I've found weighting the pegs also helps recover when the rear steps out.

I now need to remember to relax more on the bars. I find myself quite holding on too much mid corner.

[Sully60]

Have a look at Mystic13 's public profile...

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/member.php?u=18371

That guy's riding like a turkey!



Gobble gobble.


if you were to ask 100 racers, you may well get 100 different opinions.

dont get get caught up in the detail. even the well meaning advice of riding on balls of feet isnt neccessarily correct - if you were to think of the foot peg as a pivot point, you would get more leverage and strength (thus control) with the arch of your foot on the peg. again, some really good riders ride with the archs on the peg, some with their balls (!?haha) on the peg.



Keep your inside foot like that and your boot expensenses will get rather large, rather quickly! Moving your feet is a big part of cornering rhythm. The Two stroker man is on to it, do all your moving befor you hit the brakes and intiate turn in.



The best place to start is bum on seat, balls of feet on pegs and only move your upper body as per the old "kiss the mirrors" deal. Add the arse slide in later when that is natural.

+1
And if you can add some arse latter then bonus!:devil2:

And an important thing about getting this to work is to make sure you relax the outside arm to allow your upper body to move across the centre line of the bike. People who's riding devlopment has been done mainly on road and race bikes seem to do this quite naturally where as dirt oriented riders more adept at the 'pushdown' cornering method will find it a little odd at first.

You'll see from some of the profile pics the outside arm is actually touching the tank, this is what you need to aim for, probably a litle hard on an ol' skool type bike like yo bucket with a skinny tank but you'll feel the benefits of it, not only to get your body position right but allows you to feel whats going on whilst making serious steering inputs with the inside arm.

[cowpoos]

Wrong. Youre not leaning far enough over if you have both arches on the peg and you get better wieght and force by using your ball on the inside peg due to body postion.

Basic racing position step by step. Just before or during braking move you arse off the seat towards the side you will be leaning to. Push down on the pegs with your feet during braking. Keep your arms slightly bent at all times. Move your inside ball onto the peg. Keep your outside foot, arch on the peg. Weight this inside foot to aid in turn in. Use your knee to gauge lean, and once you know your angle, lift your knee slightly (you dont want to put alot of weight on your knee). As you exit the corner weight the outside peg to aid in righting the bike and traction.

But before you do all this you will save more time just on braking points, track postioning, lines and throttle application.

Nah....I think you will find that you are wrong...go have a look at a heap of photos of riders feet...top guys especially.

and tell me...how the hell do you change gear or use the rear brake while your leaned over??? it actually doesn't make sense...if you are having a issue getting you weight further over...I suggest you move your pegs up...I can't see how you can even be that stable if a bike starts to let go with only the balls of your feet on the pegs?????? weird....anyway...what ever works for ya!!

[cowpoos]

Nah....I think you will find that you are wrong...go have a look at a heap of photos of riders feet...top guys especially.

and tell me...how the hell do you change gear or use the rear brake while your leaned over??? it actually doesn't make sense...if you are having a issue getting you weight further over...I suggest you move your pegs up...I can't see how you can even be that stable if a bike starts to let go with only the balls of your feet on the pegs?????? weird....anyway...what ever works for ya!!
Well after have a dam good nosey at some photos...I will conceed there are some guys that do use the balls of their feet.[not the majority ] but most don't...so maybe its a personal prefference type thing....but still...how the hell do you use the rear brake and change gear??? and all the moving about must be making corners far busier than they need to be!!!!

[t3mp0r4ry nzr]

I need to qualify my statements RE: arch on pegs. I was alluding that the foot weighting the peg should, from a physics point of view, be better with the arch than ball/toes. In a turn, the inside peg isnt being weighted so you can move the foot up and out of the way, if you arent using the foot controls. The outside peg, is the most critical.

But this also depends on your personal dimensions. Those with short legs and who hang off heaps, will use their tippy toes on the outside peg because their legs are having to reach. This looks down-right dangerous to me, as there can be little leverage on the peg from the quads/glutes (how much power can you get out of your calfs!!). BUT some are fast with this method ie, Tony Elias.

Also, RE: elbows on tank. Ben spies is elbows up, same as Andrew Pitt (ex world supersport champ), Setton from OZ. They are all fast and dont rest elbows on the tank. The theory is that high elbows makes the handle bars a pivot point, which, according to the theory will increase steering inputs ie, make bars shake ets. But go ride a dirt bike with low elbows. It'll throw you off in 5 minutes!

Hence my comments as there is no one, generic best method. There are ideals, from a physics point of view, but in reality many different styles can be effective.

In this regard, no-one is wrong or right. YOu should do whats comfortable.

[discotex]

I need to qualify my statements RE: arch on pegs. I was alluding that the foot weighting the peg should, from a physics point of view, be better with the arch than ball/toes.

Physics isn't the issue. Biology is. Our legs are designed to produce the most force from the ball of the foot. That's how we run/walk/jump/etc. It makes your natural suspension an extension of the bike's suspension.

Following your argument it would be best to ride with your heels on the pegs. Actually I think that'd be better than the arches for force as it would at least isolate your quads properly.

But totally agree that aside from theory doing whatever works for the individual is paramount.

[JJ58]

Check out this dude (#6). He's only just turned 17 and is on his 3rd year as a factory rider.......... NZ seems old skool in terms of riding position.......... He can teach us a thing or two.... But then critics say Doohan had a really bad riding position too.

http://mcracing.sasktelwebhosting.com/Rnd7SB4.jpg

I've only seen two riders in NZ with the more modern style, and neither of them was on a SB or 600.

[Tim 39]

I know this is probably a little early for such a slow noob to be pondering but I was just wondering (for next time I'm on a track) the "correct" cornering position according to you racers? I get the general idea that (as told by any racer I ever asked) you are supposed to have your lid out off the side as much as your butt to avoid the twisted riding position and look through the corner. The only opposite example I can think of is Andrew Stroud, but it seems to work for him. But then there is the amount you should hang off... I've read on this site that it's pointless (or at least impractical) to hang off any more than one cheek, but on the other side there is that the more you hang off, the more you can straighten it up and hence get on the gas harder and earlier. Could someone enlighten me on this? Thanks!

My honest answer to that, is that there is no right and wrong riding position. Try all of the different ways you've seen and see which feels best for you and your riding style. The whole learning thing is trial and error so take the opportunity in practice sessions or watever, to giv things a try

[wbks]

Check out this dude (#6). He's only just turned 17 and is on his 3rd year as a factory rider.......... NZ seems old skool in terms of riding position.......... He can teach us a thing or two.... But then critics say Doohan had a really bad riding position too.

http://mcracing.sasktelwebhosting.com/Rnd7SB4.jpg

I've only seen two riders in NZ with the more modern style, and neither of them was on a SB or 600.How do you define the "modern" style, then? Head right down and off the side with the boot/knee/elbow scraping as apposed to knee down and head up by the windshield?

[discotex]

Check out this dude (#6).

http://mcracing.sasktelwebhosting.com/Rnd7SB4.jpg


That is a cracking photo. Exactly the body position I aspire to. When I get it right it feels totally natural. Especially on high speed corners.

[Two Smoker]

I love how there are so many experts on KB... I have NEVER seen a photo with a Racer with his inside foot, arch on the peg... The outside foot is always arch on the peg.

Everyone go out to their bikes, put it on stands, and see if it is easier to move your weight from the inside back to centre on the ball of your foot or arch...

And those with an arguement "what about using the rear brake?" Well most top guys run a thumb rear brake.

Physics of weighting the pegs? ride in a straight line and take your hands off the bars, then weight the pegs. See what happens? Thats right, what ever peg you put weight on the bike turns towards. Still want to argue? Ill happily meet you at any race track in NZ and beat you.

[scracha]

I've only seen two riders in NZ with the more modern style, and neither of them was on a SB or 600.
Oh cool...my style is officially "modern" :gob: Shame I'm shite at racing tho.

[wbks]

I love how there are so many experts on KB... I have NEVER seen a photo with a Racer with his inside foot, arch on the peg... The outside foot is always arch on the peg.

Everyone go out to their bikes, put it on stands, and see if it is easier to move your weight from the inside back to centre on the ball of your foot or arch...

And those with an arguement "what about using the rear brake?" Well most top guys run a thumb rear brake.

Physics of weighting the pegs? ride in a straight line and take your hands off the bars, then weight the pegs. See what happens? Thats right, what ever peg you put weight on the bike turns towards. Still want to argue? Ill happily meet you at any race track in NZ and beat you.Calm down bud...

[Wingnut]

And the "Gayest Thread of the Year" Award goes to...................

[brads]

And the "Gayest Thread of the Year" Award goes to...................

Damm right there mate,as Tim said,do what ever feels right!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Two Smoker]

Calm down bud...

I reckon... lol