Police radars - testing?

[dpex]

Does anyone know the real rules regarding the testing and certification of the radar sets used by the cops?

Who tests the units and how often?

Are the units then supplied with some form of certification? If yes then who has that? The cop, or the testing facility?

Naturally, we know two on this site who do, but I suspect they'll be slow in coming forward with the goss.

Also, does anyone know how these units are calibrated? By that I mean, can they be calibrated to cease detection at a specific distance, and is that specific distance determinable by adjusting the unit?

If yes, how and how often is this function tested?

Further, one thread here (earlier this year) suggested the radar units were capable of detecting a vehicle 'behind' the leading vehicle. Is this true or just another Star-Trek fantasy?

Does anyone know where I could obtain the specifications (performance and operation) on the radar units used in NZ?

I ask all this because I think I've been unfairly nicked. I don't mind copping a fair nick, but the various circumstances surrounding this one seemed extremely shonky; which were...

The cop was parked on the left hand side of the road, some 700 M ahead.

His car was facing away from me. He was sitting in his car at the time he claimed he detected me. Thus he could have 'seen' me only through his rear-view mirror....700 M away.

The zone into which I entered changes from 100Kph to 70 Kph.

A large NZ Post truck had been dogging my arse for the previous ten Ks. He was about 100M behind me when I entered the 70K zone, so he was still in the 100K zone.

The truck is huge compared to me and my bike. So which of the two would the radar unit have detected?

But then there's the 'where was I' when detected? Was I actually inside the 70K zone or not?

And how could a cop, sitting 700 M ahead, looking at me in his rear view mirror have determined where I was at the time of the alleged infringement?

He hit his 'Gotcha' lights within seconds of me passing the 70K sign, and at no time, from his view, could I have been between him and the sign. So how could he determine I was actually inside the zone?

That's why I asked if these dinguses can be set for a specific distance for detection.

[Blackshear]

I haven't got much info brah, but, prepare for the shitstorm and impending 'SEARCH' function telling off!:girlfight:
I, however, will be reading with earnest.

[bully]

i too will be interested. damb pig passed me on a double yellow line today, rules of there own.

[_Shrek_]

Further, one thread here (earlier this year) suggested the radar units were capable of detecting a vehicle 'behind' the leading vehicle. Is this true or just another Star-Trek fantasy?

The truck is huge compared to me and my bike. So which of the two would the radar unit have detected?

But then there's the 'where was I' when detected? Was I actually inside the 70K zone or not?

And how could a cop, sitting 700 M ahead, looking at me in his rear view mirror have determined where I was at the time of the alleged infringement?

He hit his 'Gotcha' lights within seconds of me passing the 70K sign, and at no time, from his view, could I have been between him and the sign. So how could he determine I was actually inside the zone?

The new radars show cop speed if they are moving, the biggest & the fastest,

he would have been sitting at the 700m mark & waited & know'n when you were in the 70k area

& i'm pretty sure the new radars can detect out to 2km

[stevedg]

if you write to the NZ Police Infringement Bureau requesting the 'operators Manual and Module', 'Maintenance record' of the device and 'certificate of accuracy' for the device they will post it to you. The Manual and Module makes interesting reading and pretty much explains how to use them to avoid 'making mistakes', although I know from personal experience they or the operator is not infalable! It's proving that they made a mistake that's the problem!

[CookMySock]

Who tests the units and how often? hey have their own internal calibration department. The units are classified as calibrated scientific instruments, so their accuracy is not challengable in court.


Are the units then supplied with some form of certification? If yes then who has that? The cop, or the testing facility?Yes, the unit has a certification with it.


Also, does anyone know how these units are calibrated? By that I mean, can they be calibrated to cease detection at a specific distance, and is that specific distance determinable by adjusting the unit?The units have no concept of distance, only size of reflection. Small reflection for bikes, large one for trucks.


Further, one thread here (earlier this year) suggested the radar units were capable of detecting a vehicle 'behind' the leading vehicle. Is this true or just another Star-Trek fantasy?They can detect the largest target, and the fastest target.


The cop was parked on the left hand side of the road, some 700 M ahead.

His car was facing away from me. He was sitting in his car at the time he claimed he detected me. Thus he could have 'seen' me only through his rear-view mirror....700 M away.Yes the microwave unit will detect you at that distance.



A large NZ Post truck had been dogging my arse for the previous ten Ks. He was about 100M behind me when I entered the 70K zone, so he was still in the 100K zone.

The truck is huge compared to me and my bike. So which of the two would the radar unit have detected? This is the good bit. You have a logical case here. The microwave unit cannot tell him which target is which. It will register the strongest reflection, and also the fastest target.

If it registered the truck as the primary target, then it cannot detect you unless you are going faster than the truck. This is unlikely, since you were closer to the 70k zone than he.

If it registered YOU as the primary target, then it stands to reason that there MUST be a faster secondary target registered, since he was outside the 70k area, and you were inside it.

It is impossible to tell who was the primary target, since you are closer but much smaller, and he further away, but provided a much much larger reflective surface to the transmitted microwave signal. In this case, it is perfectly feasible for the microwave unit to actually repeatedly exchange lock between both you and the truck.

I would be asking the officer in court, "was I the primary target or the secondary target?" If he said "primary", I would ask how he could tell the difference between a larger further away object, and a smaller closer one. You will get a blank stare from him, and a raised eyebrow from the judge. If he said "seconday", then I would be asking him how it was possible you were travelling faster than the truck following you, and how would that be logical since you were inside the 70k limit and he outside it.

Either way, pretty much he is screwed IMO.


And how could a cop, sitting 700 M ahead, looking at me in his rear view mirror have determined where I was at the time of the alleged infringement?They do it for a living.


He hit his 'Gotcha' lights within seconds of me passing the 70K sign, and at no time, from his view, could I have been between him and the sign. So how could he determine I was actually inside the zone?That gives him away too. That suggests he put little or no thought into the nick.


That's why I asked if these dinguses can be set for a specific distance for detection.No they cant. They are doppler units only. They don't have any concept of distance.

All IMO, AIUI, YMMV.

Steve

[gatch]

i too will be interested. damb pig passed me on a double yellow line today, rules of there own.

He could have been going somewhere important ?

Interesting though, I heard a while back that when there is 2 vehicles that are really close together you can't without some doubt, distinguish between the 2 vehicles with the radar..

Maybe I didn't quite get the full details ?

[marty]

DB's got it in one. his advice and knowledge of the workings and limitations of the Stalker DSR is pretty much bang on.

[bully]

what interests me is can he get done if the cop car wasnt facing toward him but both going the same direction, alltho the cop was still. im not sure he can unless he had a handheld laser facing out the rear window?
db??

[MaxB]

Agree with the SEARCH comments.

Most radar units in this country are supplied by Stalker

http://www.stalkerradar.com/

AFAIK the calibrations are carried out by ESR, a crown research institute. Police are issued a set of operating guidlines and are trained in the use of the units. Units are stickered with the date of calibration and the expiry. The particular details are not available to the general public. You can get disclosed information if you are defending a charge.

The essential problem you have is that to win in court you have to have documentary evidence that the unit was inappropratley operated or the officer made a mistake. For that you will need witnesses that can be trusted. Also expert witnesses cost $200/hr, so for that you will need to be pretty sure of your position or have deep pockets.

If you don't have witnesses prepared to go to the bitter end then it is probably better to wear the ticket and move on.

If it comes down to the cops word versus yours, the court will tend to believe the cop.

[bully]

He could have been going somewhere important ?...

without making a issue, he didnt have any lights on, shouldnt he if it was that important? isnt that what they are for? if he doesnt put lights on isnt he just another road user, passing on a double yellow is dangerous no matter who you are. it cost me 30 points and $130. hence, rules of there own. correct me if im wrong.

[rebel]

How fast did you/the truck get done for?

[jimbo600]

Also as per their general instructions they're not to issue infringements within 200m of a speed change.

[Defiant]

Okay just a fast reply to this one, Cops do have to fill out a log book for equipment operation check etc this includes the filling out of the certification log book prior to using the unit every time they start the day or take over from a previous shift. You have the right to be shown the speed and these log books before they can issue the ticket. They do have guidelines of operation that i can tell you for sure that some do not do consistantly. If you get booked ask to see the vehicle log book and see the speed on the unit.

Look at it this way, would you pay a painter for a job on your bike that wasnt painted properly? Nope cause the jobs not done right. Same thing, they have a job to do BUT they also have proceedures to do it right. I have gotten off plently tickets cause the cop just thought he'd fill it out later. But then i have also asked and been shown the correct logs and cert, I happily paid the ticket.

BEAR IN MIND THIS DOESNT APPLY TO THE HAND HELD LASER> your screwed in that case.


(Yep and i do expect to get flack from this post....)

[MarkH]

He could have been going somewhere important ?

Maybe he just heard on his police radio that there was a good special going at the donut shop?


Interesting though, I heard a while back that when there is 2 vehicles that are really close together you can't without some doubt, distinguish between the 2 vehicles with the radar..

That would be true with the standard radar, but watch out for cops with the laser guns - they can target a specific vehicle and get a speed reading.

Also watch out for the fixed camera sites, they can tell which lane the speeding car is in, so if you go over the strips in the road side by side with another car and you are going faster, they can send YOU the ticket. This happened to me once, I saw the flash, but there was a car beside mine, I thought they wouldn't know which one was going faster, that was how I learnt that the radar based cameras can't tell, but the fixed site ones can. Of course if I had been on a bike then they would only have a picture of the front of the bike and no number plate.

[Rcktfsh]

if you write to the NZ Police Infringement Bureau requesting the 'operators Manual and Module', 'Maintenance record' of the device and 'certificate of accuracy' for the device they will post it to you. The Manual and Module makes interesting reading and pretty much explains how to use them to avoid 'making mistakes', although I know from personal experience they or the operator is not infalable! It's proving that they made a mistake that's the problem!

don't forget to ask for certification certificate for the operator, also make your request persuant to the Officail Information Act 1982.

[fishb8nz]

That if you avoid the in-road wiring by riding between lanes, you don't trigger the speed gun?
If, and the camera is on the opposite side of the road, your'e going faster than the vehicle in the overtaking lane - can you be photographed properly if your covered by the other vehicle?

[MarkH]

If, and the camera is on the opposite side of the road, your'e going faster than the vehicle in the overtaking lane - can you be photographed properly if your covered by the other vehicle?

Can you? Well it seems obvious to me that the answer is maybe. When the camera snaps the picture it needs to have your number plate in view - if another vehicle blocks the cameras view of your number plate then you wont get a ticket.

But with radar based speed cameras (the ones operated from a van) if there are 2 vehicles in the shot they have no way of knowing for sure which one was speeding, therefore no ticket issued.

[CookMySock]

if you avoid the in-road wiring by riding between lanes, you don't trigger the speed gun?For red lights? I do not know. But if ride into the plain view of a microwave unit, you are screwed.


If, and the camera is on the opposite side of the road, your'e going faster than the vehicle in the overtaking lane - can you be photographed properly if your covered by the other vehicle?I do not know if speed cameras have the same primary+secondary targetting system of the mobile units.

If you are partially or fully visually obscured by ONE (only!) other vehicle, it is possible to provide a valid higher-speed secondary target via reflections, but of course it is not possible for a camera device to reliably photograph you.

If the above scenario was presented as evidence in a court of law by a very experienced officer by using a modern vehicle-mounted microwave unit, then I would not like your chances of producing a rational argument to counter his. :(

Basically, if you are speeding nearby, the microwave unit will see you. It is up to the operator after that.

Steve

[Patrick]

DB's got it in one. his advice and knowledge of the workings and limitations of the Stalker DSR is pretty much bang on.

Gotta agree for a change... usually DB's "advice" is dodgy at best, but on this one, can't fault it really. Well done, thant man.


what interests me is can he get done if the cop car wasnt facing toward him but both going the same direction, alltho the cop was still. im not sure he can unless he had a handheld laser facing out the rear window?
db??

Yep. Front or rear antenna; both capable of stationary, moving or same lane modes, heading toward or away from you (front or rear).


without making a issue, he didnt have any lights on, shouldnt he if it was that important? isnt that what they are for? if he doesnt put lights on isnt he just another road user, passing on a double yellow is dangerous no matter who you are. it cost me 30 points and $130. hence, rules of there own. correct me if im wrong.

Depends if he wants to scare off the burglar or rapist or robber or whatever, by announcing his imminent arrival... I prefer to catch my crooks in the act, not scare em off. Its easier that way.


Also as per their general instructions they're not to issue infringements within 200m of a speed change.

Kind of... only if coming into a slower zone from a higher speed zone. If going from a slower zone into a faster zone, can ping ya right up to the sign.


...filling out of the certification log book prior to using the unit every time they start the day or take over from a previous shift. You have the right to be shown the speed and these log books before they can issue the ticket. ..... If you get booked ask to see the vehicle log book and see the speed on the unit.

1. It is a "daily" calibration. Not a shift change calibration.
2. You don't have the right to be shown the log book at the time, but I would, every time, to remove the claim "you filled it out after the event." If you ask to see now, to show it was filled out prior to use, any refusal would be seen as dodgy in a judges eyes, I would guess. It is a reasonable request. You definitely have the right to be shown the speed... if it is locked on....

I have gotten off plently tickets cause the cop just thought he'd fill it out later.

and fair enough too... The daily tests are to be done "before" using the device.

But then i have also asked and been shown the correct logs and cert, I happily paid the ticket.

BEAR IN MIND THIS DOESNT APPLY TO THE HAND HELD LASER> your screwed in that case.

(Yep and i do expect to get flack from this post....)

Hand held lasers also have a daily log book, to be completed before use.

What flack are you expecting?

[Patrick]

Does anyone know the real rules regarding the testing and certification of the radar sets used by the cops?

Who tests the units and how often?

ESR in an air conditioned controlled environment, yearly.

Are the units then supplied with some form of certification? If yes then who has that? The cop, or the testing facility?

The station where the cop is from usually has the cert, and the Infringement Bureau have copies of all certs. The certificates of accuracy are not normally carried in the cars.

Naturally, we know two on this site who do, but I suspect they'll be slow in coming forward with the goss.

????????????

Also, does anyone know how these units are calibrated? By that I mean, can they be calibrated to cease detection at a specific distance, and is that specific distance determinable by adjusting the unit?

DB answered this and much of the following, up to 2 KM away you can be picked up at.... and see above... controlled environment etc...

If yes, how and how often is this function tested?

Further, one thread here (earlier this year) suggested the radar units were capable of detecting a vehicle 'behind' the leading vehicle. Is this true or just another Star-Trek fantasy?

Does anyone know where I could obtain the specifications (performance and operation) on the radar units used in NZ?

I ask all this because I think I've been unfairly nicked. I don't mind copping a fair nick, but the various circumstances surrounding this one seemed extremely shonky; which were...

The cop was parked on the left hand side of the road, some 700 M ahead.

His car was facing away from me. He was sitting in his car at the time he claimed he detected me. Thus he could have 'seen' me only through his rear-view mirror....700 M away.

The zone into which I entered changes from 100Kph to 70 Kph.

A large NZ Post truck had been dogging my arse for the previous ten Ks. He was about 100M behind me when I entered the 70K zone, so he was still in the 100K zone.

The truck is huge compared to me and my bike. So which of the two would the radar unit have detected?

But then there's the 'where was I' when detected? Was I actually inside the 70K zone or not?

And how could a cop, sitting 700 M ahead, looking at me in his rear view mirror have determined where I was at the time of the alleged infringement?

He hit his 'Gotcha' lights within seconds of me passing the 70K sign, and at no time, from his view, could I have been between him and the sign. So how could he determine I was actually inside the zone?

That's why I asked if these dinguses can be set for a specific distance for detection.

The officers notes on the back of his copy of the ticket might give a better picture of "tracking." It might be the truck at 100 he pinged, not you at 70. hard to say without being there. Primary/nearest/fastest vehicles play the part, as mentioned. Maybe he only had one reading of 100kmph (truck) and thought it was you..?

[CookMySock]

what interests me is can he get done if the cop car wasnt facing toward him but both going the same direction, alltho the cop was still. im not sure he can unless he had a handheld laser facing out the rear window?
db??Sorry bud, I missed your question directly to me. Yeah the radar unit can nick you from the front or from behind the patrol, whether he is moving or stationery. He doesn't need to use the laser gun to do this, and its legal too.


It might be the truck at 100 he pinged, not you at 70. hard to say without being there. It will hard to tell even if you were there.

Here is a good demo of the limitations of doppler radar. A clean and clear tone indicates one target is being tracked. An additional tone indicates a second target, and so on. When there is more than two targets, some o them inside a speed limited area and some outside it, its just completely impossible to say which is which. Some of the "tones" in the following video aren't tones at all - they are just a mush of noise and the targets going past the patrol car aren't seperated at all. That the machine can even pull a target out of that hash is a marvel of modern electronics, but for an officer to put you in court with it - well he better be a scientist, coz his story will need a thesis to support it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7V12C2n7M08&feature=related

Dpex, go see the station manager and tell him what you now know. Put on your droopy lip and I think he will be shaking your hand and telling you not to worry about it by the time you are out of there.

Steve

[bully]

don't forget to ask for certification certificate for the operator, also make your request persuant to the Officail Information Act 1982.

ok, i was told the police man needs a licence to operate a hawlk radar, is it actually a certificate.
i asked one guy if he had it and got quite upset about it, must of hit a nerve, he then said oh no you wernt doing 120 in a 70 you were doing 80.

so is it a good idea to see the speed on his radar, what i do usually any way. and ask to see his log book for the radar and also his operator certification certificate.??
if lets say he hadnt filled out his log book or somthing, because im allowed to see it if i ask, can i also take a photo of it from my ph??

[CookMySock]

ok, i was told the police man needs a licence to operate a hawlk radar, is it actually a certificate.
i asked one guy if he had it and got quite upset about it, must of hit a nerve, he then said oh no you wernt doing 120 in a 70 you were doing 80.haha, that is classic! I found one cop double-parking his patrol car outside the post-office years ago - parked blocking the entire lane, and I marched right up to him and said "you can't do that - whats ur officer number" - and he got real ropey real quick "have a go mate - just you have a go!" so I was like, yep I'll be into that.. LOL what a dick.


so is it a good idea to see the speed on his radar, what i do usually any way. and ask to see his log book for the radar and also his operator certification certificate.?? if lets say he hadnt filled out his log book or somthing, because im allowed to see it if i ask, can i also take a photo of it from my ph??Yeah all that is a good idea. You are allowed to take a photo of anything you like - its not against the law. You can even take a picture of him if you like. :niceone:

Steve

[Patrick]

It will hard to tell even if you were there.

Nope. Piece of piss actually (if you know what you are doing.....) If you can't tell the difference between a fast moving truck and a slow moving bike, there is something wrong. If yuo can, then........


so is it a good idea to see the speed on his radar, what i do usually any way. and ask to see his log book for the radar and also his operator certification certificate.??
if lets say he hadnt filled out his log book or somthing, because im allowed to see it if i ask, can i also take a photo of it from my ph??

Personally, no worries about a photo, "nothing to hide, nothing to worry about." They dont carry the certs in the car though.


"have a go mate - just you have a go!" so I was like, yep I'll be into that.. LOL what a dick.

Riiiiiigggghhhhtt.....

You'd be into that? Yep... what a dick all right.....

[Patrick]

Gotta agree for a change... usually DB's "advice" is dodgy at best, but on this one, can't fault it really. Well done, that man.


Hit a nerve DB?

Red for this????

Your record speaks for itself. Most of your "advice" is "dangerous" at best and should be taken International.

Your post over this one was spot on.... for a change.... twas a compliment. Guess you're not used to that.............................................. ..