Buggered seal or just need a clean?

[stevewederell]

Right so my newest problem is with my front brakes, specifically the inner right piston(s).

I have a CB600 Hornet and the inner pad seems to be wearing very very fast. When I replaced the pads last year this particular set of pistons was quite hard to push back in to get the pad out. Didn’t think anything of it and cleaned as much as I could without removing and cleaning the whole calliper and brake system.

What I’m wondering is if I should remove the callipers and pull everything apart and clean her out (which I haven’t done before but happy to give it a nudge) or if the seals are probably fucked in which I’ll have to do the above, replace whatever needs to go and throw yet another set of pads on board.

Any thoughts and tips wanted, so feel free to get the gay Honda bashing out of the way first


Cheers
Steve

[FJRider]

A good clean of the front brake system is always a good idea, if there are possible problems. New seals also helps remove possible problems. And narrows the search area if the problem still exists.The piston on ONE side suggests the other is sticking...or line to that piston is blocked. A good starting point.

Gay honda bashing... as if I would do that.... :whistle:

[stevewederell]

So, am I best to pull the calliper(s) off and pull them apart or just try and do what I can with it attached? I'm thinking I should whip the buggers off...

[FROSTY]

Without wanting to raise the ire of the mechanical purists on here. Id have a crack at giving the pistons,pins and slides on the offending caliper a good clean up and lube then see how things go.
by lube of course I mean with a water based lube on the brake pistons or anywhere intended to touch brake fluid.
Theres a bunch of threads about this subject.
its not something I suggest tackling first time on your own. Id have someone who knows what theyre doing show you how first

[FJRider]

Or pay someone to do it....

[stevewederell]

Without wanting to raise the ire of the mechanical purists on here. Id have a crack at giving the pistons,pins and slides on the offending caliper a good clean up and lube then see how things go.
by lube of course I mean with a water based lube on the brake pistons or anywhere intended to touch brake fluid.
Theres a bunch of threads about this subject.
its not something I suggest tackling first time on your own. Id have someone who knows what theyre doing show you how first

Quite keen to tackle this over the easter weekend. Thought I'd just take my time.

I have some Bel-Ray lube of some sort but I doubt it's water based (can't be arsed getting off the couch to check). So lube better that brake fluid? Should I try and take the seals out to clean in there and how do I do it without damaging them, or is it so simple I'll answer my own question when I get in there?

I'll have another wee search on cleaning and dismantling them, see what I can find.

[Taz]

Nothing difficult about it. calipers are very simple. should only take a half hour a side. Brake fluid is fine for lubing seals for reassembly. Can blow pistons out with compressed air but be careful as they'll take off if you dont use a block of wood or similar in the caliper,

[FROSTY]

Quite keen to tackle this over the easter weekend. Thought I'd just take my time.

I have some Bel-Ray lube of some sort but I doubt it's water based (can't be arsed getting off the couch to check). So lube better that brake fluid?
NO NO NO--dont go near em with that stuff or the next thing youll be saying is --How come my brakes dont work. brake fluid yes any other oil based lube NO
Should I try and take the seals out to clean in there and how do I do it without damaging them, or is it so simple I'll answer my own question when I get in there?
dude I wouldn't go that far. Like as not the pistons are covered in crap. WATER and soap are great for a bike of its age -wash the crud off till you have a nice shiney chrome surface again. That may very well be all you need to do.

I'll have another wee search on cleaning and dismantling them, see what I can find.
sorry if I sound pedantic

[stevewederell]

Not at all, pedantic is great, less chance of me screwing it up.

I've got lots of nice clean sterile tools I can (borrow) from the lab for cleaning little bits. Brake cleaner spray con o stuff too.

My plan - Pull the caliper off, pads out, open caliper up, spit the pistons out (although I don't have compressed air), rub a dub dub clean and polish, lube, pistons back in, caliper back together, back on bike - then no more problems ever again...<_<

[Taz]

Not at all, pedantic is great, less chance of me screwing it up.

I've got lots of nice clean sterile tools I can (borrow) from the lab for cleaning little bits. Brake cleaner spray con o stuff too.

My plan - Pull the caliper off, pads out, open caliper up, spit the pistons out (although I don't have compressed air), rub a dub dub clean and polish, lube, pistons back in, caliper back together, back on bike - then no more problems ever again...<_<

Cool plan......

[LBD]

Gay honda bashing... as if I would do that.... :whistle:

Of course you wouldn't,...that would be the pot calling the kettle black.:lol:

Mate unless you are 100% confident, remove them from the bike and take them to the proffesionals, your front brake is the last thing you want to fail.

If confident then the advice above is pretty good. Check for pitting, corrosion, groves, gouges or other wear in the bores and where the seals fit on the pistons. Fit new seals and dust seals and by the sound of it a new set of pads.

Good luck

[mujambee]

If you feel confident with it, there is something much simpler you can do and see what happens; I do it everytime I change the pads.

Simply unfasten the calipers from the bike, but dont remove the hose. With the caliper in your hand, hold the pistons in one side and gently press the brake lever so the pistons in the other side get out of their housings. When you have enough of the piston out, you can simply pull it out, clean it and put it back again.

An alternative to stevewederell's water and soap, I use one of those rotary wire brushes (don't know the name in english). Sounds like it will destroy it, but I was told by a professional and it works fine. And it's fast. I mean this thing (http://www.fecin.es/imagen/cepillo_cablecillo.jpg)

[stevewederell]

Right, have pads sorted and I'll grab some more fluid while I'm there. Is it obvious if the seals are bung? Looking for cracks, splits, scratches???

[Taz]

I personally would replace the seals.

[Max Preload]

Strip the calipers and clean the grooves where the dust seals sit. It's also a common problem where knuckleheads have been liberally spraying brakeclean everywhere, which is harmful to the rubber components. Clean calipers only with hot soapy water.

[stevewederell]

Struck my first wee issue. I don't have a star shaped driver (like a six pointed phillips). This means till I get one, the callipers are staying assembled.

Today I've only managed to clean the four brake pins, they were caked in brake dust which seems to have been cooked on. I attacked this with 400 grit sandpaper and autosol and now they're looking sharp and feel smooth, rather than rough cardboard!

It's right now I wish I had an air compressor too, might be a wee easter gift to myself:niceone:

[FJRider]

Defitely sounds like a dam good clean was overdue... but new seals are still a good idea...

[stevewederell]

Which was first though, chicken or the egg?

Was it dirty/buggered which caused pad to wear excessively, or has wear made it stick and then wear more...?

Oh, also sheared the drive change thing from my socket set clean in half:angry2:

[stevewederell]

Well only managed to clean down one caliper today. If I can get a good deal tomorrow I'll nab an air compressor and some more tools tomorrow and pull them totally apart.

[FJRider]

Simple quick jobs... eh !!!

[FJRider]

Which was first though, chicken or the egg?

Was it dirty/buggered which caused pad to wear excessively, or has wear made it stick and then wear more...


As with all motorcycle "issues"... no direct cause may be proved... but merely factors in the result...

[FROSTY]

Like your ollution to the piston back problem :Punk:

[stevewederell]

Like your sollution to the piston back problem :Punk:

Just got to work with what you've got eh? Hey thanks for all your help to Frosty, very much appreciated.:2thumbsup

Today I need to do LH calliper and check the right, still seems to be sticking a little. Once I'm happy with all that I'll throw new fluid in, bleed bleed bleed, new pads and hope for the best.

If I can't seem to stop the sticking I'll buy a compressor and driver and take her totally apart. Hope I don't need to do that though.

[FROSTY]

Just got to work with what you've got eh? Hey thanks for all your help to Frosty, very much appreciated.:2thumbsup

Today I need to do LH calliper and check the right, still seems to be sticking a little. Once I'm happy with all that I'll throw new fluid in, bleed bleed bleed, new pads and hope for the best.

If I can't seem to stop the sticking I'll buy a compressor and driver and take her totally apart. Hope I don't need to do that though.
you might want to focus on the one sticky piston -pump it further out and get it all shiney again

[FJRider]

you might want to focus on the one sticky piston -pump it further out and get it all shiney again

what he said...

[stevewederell]

Autosol good or bad for pistons?

[stevewederell]

Well lets hope it's not bad.

Decided not to pull calliper fully apart. Both callipers and all pistons nicely cleaned up, pins all shiny again, new pads in, brakes bled. Time for a beer.

I thought I had cleaned the pistons, then I used the autosol - now they sparkle, in a manly way of course!!

Did have a wee issue with my bleeding hose falling off and fluid pooling at bottom of tire:gob:, nearly shat when I noticed:angry2:. Wasn't there for long but cleaned up and I'll just hope for the best on that one.:bash:

No time to ride the brakes in, hopefully tomorrow before a wee ride the the CHCH crazies.

Pic of the piston after autosol, far better.

[FJRider]

Autosol good or bad for pistons?

Autosol is an abrasive, as long as it is all removed with a clean cloth... all should be well..... A bit of soap and water on that tyre where brake fluid touched...

[stevewederell]

Well brake lever is a lot more "solid" now, no real movement sideways from pads but they all slide up and down a little when pushed.

Another dumb newbie question, do the top (most forward) two pistons push against the pads more than the bottom two? I noticed this when I was pumping them out to clean them. It was the same for both callipers also, so I assumed it was normal.

Incredible day, must get out on the bike rather than fixing her:woohoo:

[Taz]

Well done. Mechanics is simple really. You just have to think a little.

[stevewederell]

Too true Anthrax (I like the band and the bug).

Bad news is that just had another wee play and look. Noticed what I think is soiled brake fluid around the piston (right caliper, top inside one). From that I have thought fuck it and packed up. Not sure if I'm right but I have assumed that this means that the seal is rooted?!

I don't have any in my back pocket so this will have to wait till Monday/Tuesday before I can check out prices around town. Then I'll have to decide if I should tackle putting them in or take the calipers to the shop for them to do. I know I'd prefer to do them myself, just something new to learn.

At least now I know (I think) what the problem is, shit that I can't go riding now though:bye:

[Taz]

shit that I can't go riding now though:bye:

Bah! course you can!! And you'll ride faster, after all brakes only slow you down! :yes:

[Max Preload]

...do the top (most forward) two pistons push against the pads more than the bottom two? I noticed this when I was pumping them out to clean them. It was the same for both callipers also, so I assumed it was normal.

No. Just depends which has the least stiction.

[stevewederell]

Anyone in Christchurch know where I can get complete new set of seals at a reasonable price?

I need to get a frame number for Hampton crew but he thought they may be ~$15 each, which means 2 callipers, four pistons, two seals grand total of 16 seals:crybaby:

I guess i could just do the one, but it seems dumb not to have them all the same

[Taz]

Just phone them with the frame number then he'll be able to give you a price that's not a guess.

[stevewederell]

Right then - Looks like it will be ~$20 for each PAIR of the top seals and ~$25 for each pair of the bottom ones. Down side is that all tops ones are in stock but only 3 on the bottom ones are.

So my new plan, try and pull all pistons out tonight and clean the bits that are still dirty ready for tomorrow when parts arrive. New bits in, except for one set and hope for the best.

Any extra tips more than welcome...

[vifferman]

I have two (2) tips:
Be patient.
Don't force anything.
Wear gloves that are resistant to brake fluid. That stuff is not good for you.




Alright - three (3) tips. :rolleyes:

[FROSTY]

Right then - Looks like it will be ~$20 for each PAIR of the top seals and ~$25 for each pair of the bottom ones. Down side is that all tops ones are in stock but only 3 on the bottom ones are.

So my new plan, try and pull all pistons out tonight and clean the bits that are still dirty ready for tomorrow when parts arrive. New bits in, except for one set and hope for the best.

Any extra tips more than welcome...
what happened that you need seals??

[stevewederell]

Bad news is that just had another wee play and look. Noticed what I think is soiled brake fluid around the piston (right caliper, top inside one). From that I have thought fuck it and packed up. Not sure if I'm right but I have assumed that this means that the seal is rooted?!


Hey Frosty, see above. Looks like just one seal, but i think maybe it's best to do full set - over the top?

[Squiggles]

Do it once and properly

[stevewederell]

Struck one wee prob after I got the calipers off (that bit I'd done before and is well easy). Tried to use my fancy new star shaped screw driver to undo the caliper, too tight! Maybe they've been loctited in place...

New plan v783 - Buy, borrow an air compressor tomorrow night. Blast (gently) those puppies out, old seals out, clean clean clean, rinse out, dry, brake fluid in, new seals in, pistons back in, on to the next pair...then, surely then all will be fine??

Will have to leave one of the lower pairs of seals in until new ones arrive from Japan.

Really need this sorted so I can get back on the road, more importantly to the track on Saturday!:headbang:

[stevewederell]

Right, have seals will party!!!

First two out and discovered that the "upper and lower" seals, are in fact the other way around...:mad:, if I hadn't stopped and thought about it and just tried to jammy them in, who knows what would have happened.

Can't say I'm enjoying this anymore, but at least I'm learning not to trust any fucker and to check and recheck things.

Anyhoo, back to it;)

[Taz]

:drinkup::corn::beer::banana::apint:

[stevewederell]

:drinkup::corn::beer::banana::apint:

LOL - thanks for the boost mate...

On to 2nd caliper. Of the two that I need to get out, I can only get one out. :girlfight:

Thinking that even though I don't have four complete sets, i should replace three, but also open and clean the fourth. I mean I don't really need :zzzz:

[stevewederell]

:beer::2thumbsup

Job done!

Finally managed to get that pesky piston out!!

Home today and back on went the calipers, new pads in, old fluid out, new fluid in, bleed bleed bleed, am I done yet?? Bleed some more. Was getting well worried, seemed to take forever for pistons to engage, thought i had really fucked it somehow!

Anyway, the only small prob now is the pair of pistons I wasn't able to sort out, is sticking very slightly. Thought I might throw old pad in, it's almost new anyway, till I am able to replace that pair of seals.

Thanks to all that have helped with my little mission, and anyone on chch that is looking to do this, don't ask me for help cos I'm well over fucking brakes for a while!:crazy:

[Taz]

Ah but you have the deep satisfaction of having done the job yourself and not having to pay the local honda shop to let their ham fisted minimum wage apprentice do a half hearted half arsed job (because he really doesn't give two hoots about your bike) and then charge you the price of new calipers......

[imdying]

Yeah, CBC will have them for about $5 each... just replace the 8 main seals, the other 8 dust seals don't do a lot, you could even leave them out.

[stevewederell]

Yeah, CBC will have them for about $5 each... just replace the 8 main seals, the other 8 dust seals don't do a lot, you could even leave them out.

Already have them ordered and I'd like to keep it all kosher What's CBC anyway?

All seems good but still a little soft, think i need to bleed them more...job for tomorrow

[stevewederell]

:done:

Last set of seals arrived, took two days before I could be bothered getting off my ass to sort it though. One tip for anyone who has one small thing left to do...write down which part needs done. Couldn't remember if I had the inner or outer set to...I did eventually sort it, what a retard!!

Anyhoo, the things I learned from the other three pairs made this fix easier and faster:yes:

Let's hope that's all I need to do for my brakes for now:whistle:

[Katman]

While the seals are out you need to get inside the grooves that they seat in with a sharp probe and scrape away any crap that has built up in them. It is this crap that forces the seals harder on the pistons which can cause the pads to bind.

[stevewederell]

Yeah that's some weird shit in there. I scrubbed with some toothbrushes initially. then attacked it with a little metal probe. Don't want to have to go in there again.

Still not convinced that things are all sorted. some of the pads will hapilly move up and down when bike is at rest, and sometimes they're quite solid or hard to move. Perhaps I have too much brake fluid in master cylinder..?

[Katman]

Yeah that's some weird shit in there. I scrubbed with some toothbrushes initially. then attacked it with a little metal probe. Don't want to have to go in there again.

Still not convinced that things are all sorted. some of the pads will hapilly move up and down when bike is at rest, and sometimes they're quite solid or hard to move. Perhaps I have too much brake fluid in master cylinder..?

You should try to get every bit of that crud out of the grooves.

Another thing to consider is that there is a tiny (read very tiny) hole in the master cylinder bore that works as a bleed hole. If it is blocked the pistons will not be able to retract.