Thoughts on ABS?

[Renegade]

So ive been looking around and like the look of the newish bandits and sprints (05+).

Im considering an ABS model, ive had experience with ABS in cars and find it a useful emergency tool but i beleive most people dont understand how the ABS systems work and their purpose.

I would like to hear from those that have or have used ABS on bikes and their opinions on how you find it and if you think it is a worth while accessory.

[Hitcher]

I've ridden about three different bikes now with ABS. I don't like it. I find it vague and unresponsive. I think that a good "natural" braking system is more involving of the rider.

Call me old fashioned.

[zzzbang]

dont know if this helps.. but its interesting stuff. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6kO6ltk3a0&feature=channel

[Ixion]

I think it's excellent and very useful. This is after all the 22nd century , bikes need to get with the times

This question has been posed many time sbefore , the discussion always gets trashed when some racer type barges in and says "Race bikes don't use them therefore they are useless". And it's all downhill from there.

[Renegade]

I've ridden about three different bikes now with ABS. I don't like it. I find it vague and unresponsive. I think that a good "natural" braking system is more involving of the rider.

Call me old fashioned.

i wouldnt have thought it woulb be that noticable, i was under the impression that you would only know it was there when the front locked up or attempted to lockup?

[Ixion]

i wouldnt have thought it woulb be that noticable, i was under the impression that you would only know it was there when the front locked up?


That's my experience. Just like any other brakes until lock up point. But it is necessary to distinguish between ABS and linked brakes. Many ABS systems are also linked.

[Renegade]

That's my experience. Just like any other brakes until lock up point. But it is necessary to distinguish between ABS and linked brakes. Many ABS systems are also linked.

just to clarify the linked brakes, that means what ever pedal/lever you use it activates both brakes together? and ABS would work in conjunction with monitoring both brakes from lockup?

[SARGE]

hated the ones on the FJ when i got it .. was the first thing to go

[Blackshear]

RACEBIKES DON'T USE THEM!

Brought to you by:
USD forks
CF everthing
Treadless tyres
Elbowing down
Slipper clutches, and more!

Having never tried an ABS equipped bike, I can only say that logic would deem it superior.

[Ixion]

just to clarify the linked brakes, that means what ever pedal/lever you use it activates both brakes together? and ABS would work in conjunction with monitoring both brakes from lockup?

Yes. Linked brakes , each lever works both front and back, usually on a split arrangement eg front brake lever works all calipers on front brake only some on rear, foot brake the reverse.

Some bikes have linked wothout ABS, some have ABS without linked (my experience), some have both. Most modern ABS have both.

Only time ABS is not good is on gravel, but you can turn it off so I don't see that as a problem

[Renegade]

Yes. Linked brakes , each lever works both front and back, usually on a split arrangement eg front brake lever works all calipers on front brake only some on rear, foot brake the reverse.

Some bikes have linked wothout ABS, some have ABS without linked (my experience), some have both. Most modern ABS have both.

Only time ABS is not good is on gravel, but you can turn it off so I don't see that as a problem

why would it be know good on gravel, it would stop the front locking up in an emergency unless of course if you want lockup for dirt work.

Im thinking that the positive would be not worrying about lockup, just bang the brakes as hard as you like rain or shine and you know what will happen.....it will stop.

[Ixion]

Yes, on gravel a locked wheel is often a good thing, it acts like a snow plow and shoves down through the loose stones to the hard pack underneath, especially on the rear wheel.

And I agree , what I like about ABS is it's one less thing to worry about in an emergency. Which means more headspace free to figure out an escape route.

People say "Oh I can stop more quickly than ABS". Which may be true, on a race track, with a nice clean surface when you are expecting to brake. But it's another matter in heavy traffic on a wet road, with paint, and random oil patches, when someone races out suddenly directly in front of you. Being able just to hit the brakes hard without having to devote attention to the paint/oil/manhole cover etc etc is valuable.

[Anarkist]

I find if you keep your cardio up and burn off the fat you can get away with 100-200 situps every alternating day.

Keep your protein intake up to boost the metabolism and you should be well on your way in 2-3 weeks depending on what state you're at now.

[Renegade]

Yes, on gravel a locked wheel is often a good thing, it acts like a snow plow and shoves down through the loose stones to the hard pack underneath, especially on the rear wheel.

And I agree , what I like about ABS is it's one less thing to worry about in an emergency. Which means more headspace free to figure out an escape route.

People say "Oh I can stop more quickly than ABS". Which may be true, on a race track, with a nice clean surface when you are expecting to brake. But it's another matter in heavy traffic on a wet road, with paint, and random oil patches, when someone races out suddenly directly in front of you. Being able just to hit the brakes hard without having to devote attention to the paint/oil/manhole cover etc etc is valuable.

yes, it was a contributing factor to my crash 3yrs ago, car u-turn, beach side road with light sprinkle of sand blown on th road from the beach that wasnt visible until it was to late.

hence why im looking at ABS, now its more common on lower priced bikes.

[Motu]

I've never ridden a bike with ABS - but they are crap.So are Harleys,I read it on the internet.

[Squiggles]

dont know if this helps.. but its interesting stuff. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6kO6ltk3a0&feature=channel

I was fine with it up till the "Apply the rear in the wet and the front will activate (and stop accordingly)" part...

Not keen on that, by all means stop me looking the rear but dont fuck with me fronts, could have an interesting effect on trail braking...

[Renegade]

I find if you keep your cardio up and burn off the fat you can get away with 100-200 situps every alternating day.

Keep your protein intake up to boost the metabolism and you should be well on your way in 2-3 weeks depending on what state you're at now.

ive only ever seen four of the six, and that was a mission i soon tired of = bye bye four.

[Renegade]

I was fine with it up till the "Apply the rear in the wet and the front will activate (and stop accordingly)" part...

Not keen on that, by all means stop me looking the rear but dont fuck with me fronts, could have an interesting effect on trail braking...

yeah i wasnt to keen on that idea either, almost like a traction control system allowing either wheelto turn according to traction.

good vid

[Mort]

I saw Aaron Slight do a brake test at the recent HRC dat at Taupo - he cam flying in to the pits and nailed the brakes - there was a small chirp from the tyre and it just stopped...very quickly. It looks awesome and having ridden the non ABS bike which has awesome brakes, this must be a fantastic system. despite not being a fan of combined brake systems I would buy this one.

[The Baron]

I find that ABS works well on bigger road bikes and have had no problem with it. I would buy a bike with ABS again. I ride one with ABS and one without.

[Devil]

I saw Aaron Slight do a brake test at the recent HRC dat at Taupo - he cam flying in to the pits and nailed the brakes - there was a small chirp from the tyre and it just stopped...very quickly. It looks awesome and having ridden the non ABS bike which has awesome brakes, this must be a fantastic system. despite not being a fan of combined brake systems I would buy this one.

Yer, that new Honda system is supposed to be fantastic, but is quite different to how the existing systems work. The honda stuff is completely brake by wire with the ECU dealing with the braking forces. TWO mag has a great write up about it. Next gen ABS for bikes and it's available now on the '09 CBR's.

[snuffles]

Ridden the Bandit with ABS for the past year....the only problem it gives me is on my gravel drive way...... on the road is a sresponsive as other normal brakes, just takes a little to get used to th erelease it does when you break heavily.

You know , when you lock up on this sucker it locks release locks etc.

Still happy with it though.

[ital916]

I've always wanted abs but could never get rid of the spare tire....as for abs braking, could come in handy in the wet, I wouldnt rely on it though in case it failed. Still gotta know how to brake properly.

[vifferman]

I was fine with it up till the "Apply the rear in the wet and the front will activate (and stop accordingly)" part...

Not keen on that, by all means stop me looking the rear but dont fuck with me fronts, could have an interesting effect on trail braking...
Nup.
Can still trail brake with either the rear pedal or the front lever, or both.
It's not like Microsoft, that says, "Trust us - we know what you want better'n you do; leave it to us", and takes away all control AND completely ballses things up. The DCBS takes a week or two to get used to, but once you do get used to it, it's great! On my VFR, when you brake with the pedal, it operates two pistons on the rear brake caliper, and one in the front. A proprtioning valve (like on a car) sorts out the pressure. When you brake with the front, two pistons on each side operate, and a lever on the left fork tube operates a valve that operates the middle piston in the rear. When you use both, all pistons operate.
The nett result is you can use the rear brake to stop reasonably quickly on slippery surfaces like gravel or wet slippery roads, or brake with just the front and get some braking from the rear too, or both, and stop pretty quickly.
Downsides are not the operation, but the added complexity, a little extra weight, and a lot of extra time and care when bleeding the system.

The new E-DCBS+ABS system supposedly doesn't add much weight at all, and in practice is so transparent that the testers didn't know it was fitted until they were told. There's no pulsing of the lever as the ABS cycles, as it uses a pump operated by the levers.

[Sully60]

.So are Harleys,I read it on the internet.

Then it must be true!
My suspicions have been confirmed.<_<

[BM-GS]

I've used the 1999 version of BMW's ABS and have the following comments:

You have to brake "correctly" to get it to work properly; ie you have to use front and back together. In the dry, in a staight line one brake will do, but ifyou go over a damp patch or white line, the brake will be let off to allow the wheel to rotate, then the brake comes on again, actually increasing your braking distance and giving you the shits as you seem to accelerate towards the object you're trying to avoid. This system was quite simple in that each brake was independently ABS'd, so I had to adjust to it. Playing around on a very tar-snaked road in the wet, I could just slam on both anchors and stop dead. This took a bit of getting used to (in my head) but wasn't a fair test of the typical panic-stop situation - when I'd grab the front first out of habit, and then go for the back, by which time the front had been let go and the brakes were all off until the ABS and I put them on. But that's a reflection on my poor technique - when used as designed, they're most effective.

Newer high-end systems, like the new Honda one may feel a bit different to the older ones as they balance front & rear depending on all kinds of things (wheel speed, vehicle speed, lever pressure, balance between front & rear, acceleration this way & that, etc) to apply maximum stop when you ask it to, regardless of what levers you're pushing & pulling.

As the afore-mentioned TWO article says (if it's the one I think it is) it's about time bike makers added this type of thing to bikes, or else we'll be legislated away as our crash stats are so bad compared to cars (thanks to cars having had ABS, seatbelts, airbags & crumple zones not made of flesh & bone for decades. I reckon a big cannon mounted to the front of most bikes could help to redress that, though.

[shafty]

The linked ABS on my ST1300 literally saved my life while on the maiden voyage from picking the bike up from Langlands. Picture wet dark road, pissing down. Lowlife scum in cage pulled out of the forest in 100km/hour area directly into my path. Missed him by less than a metre. Without ABS I believe I would have still been travelling many metres further before stopping.

Test rode the R1150R for BRM years ago - featuring Tele Lever and linked ABS, ie no front dive at all. The Guy from BMW said, take it on a quiet road, check that theres no one behind you (!) and hit the front brakes full noise at 150 km/hr. This is NOT a natural thing to do. The result was astounding - totally drama free. As if someone had pushed the freeze frame on a DVD.

[Renegade]

I've used the 1999 version of BMW's ABS and have the following comments:

You have to brake "correctly" to get it to work properly; ie you have to use front and back together. In the dry, in a staight line one brake will do, but ifyou go over a damp patch or white line, the brake will be let off to allow the wheel to rotate, then the brake comes on again, actually increasing your braking distance and giving you the shits as you seem to accelerate towards the object you're trying to avoid. .

yes braking distances may increase, but the idea is you can steer around the hazard without losing the front in heavy braking due to lockup

[Renegade]

The linked ABS on my ST1300 literally saved my life while on the maiden voyage from picking the bike up from Langlands. Picture wet dark road, pissing down. Lowlife scum in cage pulled out of the forest in 100km/hour area directly into my path. Missed him by less than a metre. Without ABS I believe I would have still been travelling many metres further before stopping.

Test rode the R1150R for BRM years ago - featuring Tele Lever and linked ABS, ie no front dive at all. The Guy from BMW said, take it on a quiet road, check that theres no one behind you (!) and hit the front brakes full noise at 150 km/hr. This is NOT a natural thing to do. The result was astounding - totally drama free. As if someone had pushed the freeze frame on a DVD.

yip. thats what im talking about, saving ya skin through the technology

[Mystic13]

ABS

On Gravel

The reason ABS is an issue on gravel is that the system is checking the rotation speed of the front and rear wheels. On gravel the wheels can stop rotating faster and this wrecks havoc with the ABS algorithms and folks report having no brakes for long periods going down hill or when trying to stop. The ABS thinks the bike is sliding or has lost traction and releases brakes to regain traction. Dual purpose bikes with ABS sometimes have an ABS on/off switch to deal to this problem. That is ABS will never work so switch it off when off road or on gravel.

ABS on a surface that does not have a consistent co-efficient of friction is always going to be a problem. So that means sand would still be a problem.

ABS In General

ABS on bikes has generally been getting better with systems up till recently reporting some serious faults. Google is your friend for specific bike makes but Honda sounds pretty good.

BMW is a disaster. There have been reports of a number of crashes as a result of the ABS on the BMW F800. When braking for a stop and not even braking hard, on a dry road, in a straightline.... so no chance of having an issue. If you hit a bump or dip the size of a catseye once in a while you lose ALL brakes, both front and rear, and this stays gone for up to two car lengths.

Guys have ditched there bikes, found ways to disable the ABS and still today BMW has a policy of deny, deny, deny on a bike that can kill a rider.

I consider it will only be a matter of time before this BMW ABS on the F800 kills a rider. The fact that there are already reported crashes and numerous near misses is of serious concern.

All reports I've heard on the Honda have been good. I don't know which system the Triumph use but BMW uses a Bosch system and I can't recall the model but can find it if you want to know.




ABS kicks in when you jam on the anchors hard and you get the pulsed feel as the brakes are applied and released. In the 2 1/4 years I've had ABS it has never activated except in two circumstances;

1/ when I want to demonstrate how it works.

2/ To fail. I've had 8 failures. Of these one was a near miss where I shot into a round-a-bout because all the brakes had been released and shot behind a Jeep Cherokee. Seconds earlier I'd have been talking to it's grill.

BMW have designed a new system for the F800R with an adjustment for dealing with bumps but have chosen to make no fix available to the F800 S and ST.

Personally now with my experience I'd be very wary of ABS and either wait till it gets better, or do a thorough search for a particular model or look for a bike where it can be switched. I would never ever, ever, ever buy a BMW with ABS.


Hope this helps.

[pritch]

When ABS first came out the local Police were quite agitated. Their concern was that there would be no skidmarks to measure following an accident??? That an accident may not have actually eventuated due to the ABS was a possibility that hadn't occurred to them at that point.

A demonstration was organised by the local BMW dealer. The rider, then of Callender Motorcycles - now of Experience BMW, told me that he had to brake very, very hard to get the ABS to function from speed. Far harder than most riders would ever brake. Hard enough in fact to receive favourable comments from very impressed members of the Police.

In an emergency situation most riders don't brake anywhere near as hard as is actually possible. ABS let's anyone brake as hard as they can pull the lever.

ABS saves lives.

I have experienced ABS operation in a heavy vehicle but not on a bike. Unfortunately the ABS equipped VFR is one of the many models in the Honda range that Bluewing don't import into this country.

[FROSTY]

For me the jurys out. Ive owned bikes with abs and with linked brakes.
On the bike with linked brakes I liked just using the back brake to slow down. It really suited the style of bike.
On the bikes with ABS I don't recall ever actually ever experiencing the ABS doing its thing.
In theory ABS is a fantastic concept for road use where surfaces are less than predictable.
MY negative on it is that Ive dealt with enough ABS issues in cages to know it aint a cheap fix.

[Ixion]

ABS

..



BMW is a disaster. There have been reports of a number of crashes as a result of the ABS on the BMW F800. When braking for a stop and not even braking hard, on a dry road, in a straightline.... so no chance of having an issue. If you hit a bump or dip the size of a catseye once in a while you lose ALL brakes, both front and rear, and this stays gone for up to two car lengths.

Guys have ditched there bikes, found ways to disable the ABS and still today BMW has a policy of deny, deny, deny on a bike that can kill a rider.

I consider it will only be a matter of time before this BMW ABS on the F800 kills a rider. The fact that there are already reported crashes and numerous near misses is of serious concern.

All reports I've heard on the Honda have been good. I don't know which system the Triumph use but BMW uses a Bosch system and I can't recall the model but can find it if you want to know.




ABS kicks in when you jam on the anchors hard and you get the pulsed feel as the brakes are applied and released. In the 2 1/4 years I've had ABS it has never activated except in two circumstances;

1/ when I want to demonstrate how it works.

2/ To fail. I've had 8 failures. Of these one was a near miss where I shot into a round-a-bout because all the brakes had been released and shot behind a Jeep Cherokee. Seconds earlier I'd have been talking to it's grill.

BMW have designed a new system for the F800R with an adjustment for dealing with bumps but have chosen to make no fix available to the F800 S and ST.

Personally now with my experience I'd be very wary of ABS and either wait till it gets better, or do a thorough search for a particular model or look for a bike where it can be switched. I would never ever, ever, ever buy a BMW with ABS.


Hope this helps.

Absolutely no issues at all on a BMW K series. Very seldom had it activate but when it did it was good. No failures at all . If you let the battery go flat the ABS will disable itself , brakes work completely normally, just no ABS. You just have to reset it with a paperclip. I can turn it off in gravel.

I'd trust it completely.

[Renegade]

ABS

On Gravel

The reason ABS is an issue on gravel is that the system is checking the rotation speed of the front and rear wheels. On gravel the wheels can stop rotating faster and this wrecks havoc with the ABS algorithms and folks report having no brakes for long periods going down hill or when trying to stop. The ABS thinks the bike is sliding or has lost traction and releases brakes to regain traction. Dual purpose bikes with ABS sometimes have an ABS on/off switch to deal to this problem. That is ABS will never work so switch it off when off road or on gravel.

ABS on a surface that does not have a consistent co-efficient of friction is always going to be a problem. So that means sand would still be a problem.

ABS In General

ABS on bikes has generally been getting better with systems up till recently reporting some serious faults. Google is your friend for specific bike makes but Honda sounds pretty good.

BMW is a disaster. There have been reports of a number of crashes as a result of the ABS on the BMW F800. When braking for a stop and not even braking hard, on a dry road, in a straightline.... so no chance of having an issue. If you hit a bump or dip the size of a catseye once in a while you lose ALL brakes, both front and rear, and this stays gone for up to two car lengths.

Guys have ditched there bikes, found ways to disable the ABS and still today BMW has a policy of deny, deny, deny on a bike that can kill a rider.

I consider it will only be a matter of time before this BMW ABS on the F800 kills a rider. The fact that there are already reported crashes and numerous near misses is of serious concern.

All reports I've heard on the Honda have been good. I don't know which system the Triumph use but BMW uses a Bosch system and I can't recall the model but can find it if you want to know.




ABS kicks in when you jam on the anchors hard and you get the pulsed feel as the brakes are applied and released. In the 2 1/4 years I've had ABS it has never activated except in two circumstances;

1/ when I want to demonstrate how it works.

2/ To fail. I've had 8 failures. Of these one was a near miss where I shot into a round-a-bout because all the brakes had been released and shot behind a Jeep Cherokee. Seconds earlier I'd have been talking to it's grill.

BMW have designed a new system for the F800R with an adjustment for dealing with bumps but have chosen to make no fix available to the F800 S and ST.

Personally now with my experience I'd be very wary of ABS and either wait till it gets better, or do a thorough search for a particular model or look for a bike where it can be switched. I would never ever, ever, ever buy a BMW with ABS.


Hope this helps.

good post, clearly BMW have had a few issues but would it be a fair call to say they would be one of the first to fit bikes with ABS?? if so teething probs should be accepted but id expect it to be sorted by now,

any suzuki bandit owners out there with ABS stories?

[Weta]

There's an interesting article in the March Rapid where Andrew Pitt tests 09 CBR1000rr with ABS, as a racer he was very sceptical but by test end thought they were fantastic. Initial test was from tarmac into a gravel area at 100ks, grab the brake hard and see what happens. He couldn't lock it up, said there was a faint 'pulse' or on off feel but negligible. Sounds like theyre improving all the time.

[yachtie10]

Ive got the 1250 ABS bandit
Only done 2300 k so far but all good no issues
Have panic braked and hauled up fast no issues, to be honest havnt noticed any difference from my old bandit
I have done lots of checking on Bandit forums and havnt seen any issues with ABS

Cheap upgrade worth having IMHO

[munterk6]

ABS?? I would love abs...but unfortunately the passage of time and an unhealthy diet with no exercise at all ever, has made certain I have a keg.

seriously tho, isn't ABS brakes for people that have no idea how to use brakes effectively with feel and skill? :oi-grr:

[BMWST?]

ABS?? I would love abs...but unfortunately the passage of time and an unhealthy diet with no exercise at all ever, has made certain I have a keg.

seriously tho, isn't ABS brakes for people that have no idea how to use brakes effectively with feel and skill? :oi-grr:

you could argue that but in a real panic situation in unfavourable conditions it could be the difference between an accident or not.In a real panic situation you will lock up the rear,maybe even the front if the surface is slippery.

[Ixion]

seriously tho, isn't ABS brakes for people that have no idea how to use brakes effectively with feel and skill? :oi-grr:

Yes. I've only been riding for half a century. I don't know how to use brakes effectively with skill and feel to do a 10 10ths emergency stop , unexpectedly, on a oily wet road, in the pouring rain, at night, well adorned with white paint, and a metal man hole cover, when boi-racer has raced up in the lane beside me, lost it on the curve and now is spinning round in front of me, having already clipped two cars who are also losing it . Oh, and the only escape route, IF I can identify it quickly enough will take me across the gravel verge.

But I'm sure you would be able to pull a full force emergency stop, without risking locking the wheel, and still have headspace to identify that little corridor round the wrecked cars onto the gravel. And ease off at exactly the right moment when you hit the gravel. Us lesser mortals need all the help we can get.

OH, and BTW, that's the real world.

[Slyer]

I've always wanted abs but could never get rid of the spare tire....as for abs braking, could come in handy in the wet, I wouldnt rely on it though in case it failed. Still gotta know how to brake properly.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redundant_acronym_syndrome

[Renegade]

seriously tho, isn't ABS brakes for people that have no idea how to use brakes effectively with feel and skill? :oi-grr:

nope, it was designed to enable you to brake and steer a car at the same time without lockup, cos if it locks you cant steer, try it in ya car

[Sully60]

nope, it was designed to enable you to brake and steer a car at the same time without lockup, cos if it locks you cant steer, try it in ya car

It was actually designed to stop heavy supersonic bombers on landing. Everything good comes from warplanes!

[Renegade]

It was actually designed to stop heavy supersonic bombers on landing. Everything good comes from warplanes!

thats cool :first:

[dipshit]

Yes. I've only been riding for half a century. I don't know how to use brakes effectively with skill and feel to do a 10 10ths emergency stop...

But you haven't got a photo of yourself doing a track day! How could you possibly be as skilled and as amazingly talented..???

[dipshit]

seriously tho, isn't ABS brakes for people that have no idea how to use brakes effectively with feel and skill?


You mean like all the 'legions in their own lunchtimes' types around here that have a photo of themselves doing a track day and say things like... "all the braking is done with the front, i never touch the back brake"

The reality is they aren't as shit hot as they think they are.

A good linked ABS like Honda's new system will significantly improve their braking abilitys.

[xwhatsit]

You mean like all the 'legions in their own lunchtimes' types around here that have a photo of themselves doing a track day and say things like... "all the braking is done with the front, i never touch the back brake"
Don't forget the Yoshimura decals on their leathers!

[pritch]

'legions in their own lunchtimes'

Golly! There must be even more of them than I thought... :whistle:

[YellowDog]

Well I do ride a bike with ABS. It was not my choice, but a condition from my wife as part of the new bike deal thing (I had to buy her a rabbit).

I have ridden quite a few bikes and always like to think that my experience and ability with feeling the brakes means that I have my own inbuilt ABS.

I have only felt ABS kick in on a couple of occasions. Once was on gravel, which was still very good as it brought the bike to a standstill without skidding and the other was after a mistake I made whilst riding a little too quickly in the wet when something unexpectedly occured. In both situations I believe that I could have rescued the situation myself. I would say that I now use my back brake a great deal more and whereas before I would always have been concerned about rear wheel lock up now, I am now a lot more confident.

I am sure there will be other situations arrise for which ABS will be a life saver. I suspect that future developments will include traction/stability ABS combinations.

Unless a bike has a bad/dangerous ABS system, ABS has to be a good safety feature to be considered by all.