Look what the courier delivered today

[Mom]

I rode my blue lovely to Napier a few weeks ago, and sadly she misbehaved and is currently still there sitting on the naughty chair. Hopefully I will have her back home the weekend after Easter.

Now it has been a while since I got my hands really dirty playing with the innards of a motorcycle, and I have no idea of what acceptable tolerances are, so I went and talked to the mechanic at my local Yamaha dealership, he had no workshop manual and no parts list for my bike, but was really helpful with advice.

Did a bit of a search on the trusty internet and found a couple of forums and asked a few questions, specifically I need to know the minimum specs for the clutch friction plates. Then I set about hunting down a manual for it, there is a great thread on here and I think I visited almost every relevant site without sucess. I was about to give up when I thought to scroll page by page on one site and on about page 13 I found one! Of course I am searching for Yamaha Radian, and this manual is listed with other models ahead of Radian, so the search function did not pick it up.

A quick phone call, and hey presto it was on its way. Now all I need is the bike back, and a few tools and a few spares and I am away!

The minimum for a friction plate is 2.7mm too btw

[The Pastor]

Apparently according to george from motorcycle doctors, you cant use 2nd hand plates, regardless of the plate thickness's.

Not sure why tho.

[Mom]

Apparently according to george from motorcycle doctors, you cant use 2nd hand plates, regardless of the plate thickness's.

Not sure why tho.

No I just want to see if the ones I have are within tolerance or not so I dont replace them when I dont need to. Call it wishful thinking really.

[Ixion]

Pffasaah. Done it countless times. A clutch plate is a clutch plate.

[The Pastor]

pffasaah. Done it countless times. A clutch plate is a clutch plate.
you reckon you can use ones from the wreckers? Do they not have to be kept in oil?

[Ixion]

I've fished out dust covered ones and used them. I think that "kept in oil" thing went out with cork clutches.

If I were a bike shop, I wouldn't but, cos of risk they might be warped or something.

[The Pastor]

i've fished out dust covered ones and used them. I think that "kept in oil" thing went out with cork clutches.

If i were a bike shop, i wouldn't but, cos of risk they might be warped or something.
ok cool, i was going to buy new ones, but sod that! I'll buy 2nd hand ones! I need a specal holder tool and socket thing to undo my clutch tho, damn its tricky.

I'll aslo give george a call and see what he says, he might actually know what hes talking about.

[Squiggles]

I wouldnt mix new and old, could end up rooting the new ones if the olds are no good

[Mom]

ok cool, i was going to buy new ones, but sod that! I'll buy 2nd hand ones! I need a specal holder tool and socket thing to undo my clutch tho, damn its tricky.

I'll aslo give george a call and see what he says, he might actually know what hes talking about.

This Haynes manual shows you how to make the special tool. Easy, peasey, can scan the page showing how if you like.

[Laava]

Don't you just stuff a rag in the primary drive cogs and use a hammer and cold chisel? No? Ohhh,,,,just me then!:no:

[The Pastor]

yeah i think my bike might be a little bit differnt mom :)

but sure, scan away :D

[Ixion]

It is. thoroughly perverted. Typical Honda, all arse end first

[The Pastor]

so many spin-ey bits :(

[Mom]

Don't you just stuff a rag in the primary drive cogs and use a hammer and cold chisel? No? Ohhh,,,,just me then!:no:

Actually...

I may need to borrow that special tool of yours mate, all I need to do is stop the clutch from turning, so I can undo and redo the hold it altogether thingy right? If I need to can I borrow it? I am hunting out my TOOLS at the moment in an-tic-i-pa-tion of this.

[danchop]

man i wouldnt mess with measuring plates the tolerance is too minor,and what a bloody job just to check your plates,if your clutch is slipping or playing up just replace the bloody things and with new ones

[Bonez]

ok cool, i was going to buy new ones, but sod that! I'll buy 2nd hand ones! I need a specal holder tool and socket thing to undo my clutch tho, damn its tricky.

I'll aslo give george a call and see what he says, he might actually know what hes talking about.Screwdriver between the clutch drive cog and gear it's driven with, in gear and broom stick through the rear wheel spoke locks it. You can undo the center nut with a brass punch(or if you are gash a screw driver-last resort really) and hammer.

Friction plates can get glaised and just need a bit of a scuff up. Tis worth replacing the springs(length should at least be checked to see if they're within tolerances) or if you're cheap use some washers to give extra tension.

[The Pastor]

yeah i tired all that, but it wouldnt hold it with the stick through the wheel ... not sure what you mean about the drive cog and gear its driven with...

also tried to drift out the nut - but it was just denting or cutting into the nut rather than turning it.

[Bonez]

yeah i tired all that, but it wouldnt hold it with the stick through the wheel ... not sure what you mean about the drive cog and gear its driven with...

also tried to drift out the nut - but it was just denting or cutting into the nut rather than turning it.There's a gear on the back of the clutch right? This engages in another gear in the housing. You should be able to make a tool to remove the centre nut out of a large socket or thick wall steel tube.

[The Pastor]

I guess so.... I think access to it might be very limited tho the clutch housing bit is very big (where you have to hold it and undo the nut)

[Mom]

man i wouldnt mess with measuring plates the tolerance is too minor,and what a bloody job just to check your plates,if your clutch is slipping or playing up just replace the bloody things and with new ones

yah, I agree, but you know I have to protect my Scottish heritage somehow...LOL. True though, plates are not as expensive as I was expecting. My clutch has no adjustment left, I am lucky to remain stationery with it fully engaged (well the lever pulled hard against the bars, fully adjusted anyway), I need to do some work on it...Yes:

[Bonez]

I guess so.... I think access to it might be very limited tho the clutch housing bit is very big (where you have to hold it and undo the nut)If you put something between these two gears to stop them turning (the method I described above including broom stick) you shouldn't need to hold the housing at all.

[Mom]

Friction plates can get glaised and just need a bit of a scuff up. Tis worth replacing the springs(length should at least be checked to see if they're within tolerances) or if you're cheap use some washers to give extra tension.

See now this is where a girl like me gets confused. I agree with you ,hence my wanting to know the minimum thickness spec for the plates, but I have been told not to worry about the springs. Hmmmmm. Preloading with washers seems a bit ummmmm sneaky. Ever had them fail?

I like your outlook too, my blue lovely is an older kinda of gal, and needs special treatment. She is not the high performance, race tech beast, that some have.

[Bonez]

yah, I agree, but you know I have to protect my Scottish heritage somehow...LOL. True though, plates are not as expensive as I was expecting. My clutch has no adjustment left,Is that at both ends of the cable Mom?

[Bonez]

See now this is where a girl like me gets confused. I agree with you ,hence my wanting to know the minimum thickness spec for the plates, but I have been told not to worry about the springs. Hmmmmm. Preloading with washers seems a bit ummmmm sneaky. Ever had them fail?No, but never had to do it myself. I do believe it's an old scotts remedie though. Arch eh de noo ;) Such canny folk when it comes to spending a few shingles.

[Mom]

Is that at both ends of the cable Mom?

Off the top I will say yes, but to be honest I have not really, closely fiddled with her cables. Probably what I dont like is I cant adjust the clutch to release where I actually like it to be on the lever, and have had to get used to using it where it works. I dont use clutch on upshifts (much) and have been known to not use it downwards from time to time. Last time it was in the shop the job card warned clutch is about fried.

You need to talk to my people...LOL

[Mom]

No, but never had to do it myself. I do believe it's an old scotts remedie though. Arch eh de noo ;) Such canny folk when it comes to spending a few shingles.

LOL..ok but, I dont want this clutch to be any harder to operate that it is now. I have girly hands afterall :baby: and simply dont fancy a work out of ab-king-pro standards for my left hand when I stop and start.

[The Pastor]

fwiw i replaced my springs when my clutch started to slip with heavy duty ones (same idea as the washers i guess) it cost me $30 for a set.

[Mom]

fwiw i replaced my springs when my clutch started to slip with heavy duty ones (same idea as the washers i guess) it cost me $30 for a set.

So how much did that impact on the resistance, when you pulled the clutch lever in? Wonder if I should get this moved to the technical forums?

[Subike]

This is a Yamaha clutch right?
And it is slipping Right?
Are you using friction reducuing engine oil?
Thats your problem ,
if not

there is still visable friction plate fibers, 2.7mm?
You are using the proper oil?
Clutch slips under power?

I had the same problem with my Yamaha XS1100.
Clutch slipped under power, yet there was plenty of friction plate left.

Solution.
Remove the 5 or 6 pressure plate springs, ( depending on model )
Add the washer off of a spark plug under the springs and reassemble.
This will give you a small increase in your pressure plate pressure against the worn clutch plate,
Allowing you to get a good deal more miles out of a seviceable clutch friction plate.
The only difference in operation is a slightly heavier clutch lever.

An alternative, which many bikers have used, is to ad one steel plate to the clutch pack. This will replace the "used" thickness of the friction plates and allow the clutch to grip as per normal and again extend the clutch life.
But requires the purchase of one second hand steel clutch pack disk.

Both of theses solutions I have used with success on my XS11, and the second was still in use after 3 years when I bought and installed a Bartlet performance clutch pack last winter.

Hope this is a little help, and others who have had experiance, please comment

[The Pastor]

So how much did that impact on the resistance, when you pulled the clutch lever in? Wonder if I should get this moved to the technical forums?
it made the lever pull harder, but i like it hard! - it was a temporary fix btw will need the plates replaced soon

[Ixion]

See now this is where a girl like me gets confused. I agree with you ,hence my wanting to know the minimum thickness spec for the plates, but I have been told not to worry about the springs. Hmmmmm. Preloading with washers seems a bit ummmmm sneaky. Ever had them fail?

I like your outlook too, my blue lovely is an older kinda of gal, and needs special treatment. She is not the high performance, race tech beast, that some have.

The washer trick's an old one. Used many a time by many. Will do no harm, may not do much good. Only thing is to make sure that you are not going to coil bind the spring - ie all movement used up and it is a solid thing. That will snap your cable quickish.

But I am puzzled. You speak of worn plates, which would manifest as slippage. But the you say


My clutch has no adjustment left, I am lucky to remain stationery with it fully engaged (well the lever pulled hard against the bars, fully adjusted anyway)


which implies drag. Which is the exact reverse! Is it slipping (bike won't go up hills, engine races, appears to have no power). Or dragging (won't go into gear, hard to get into neutral, creeps forward in first gear with clutch disengaged, gear changes clonk or are hard to make ) ?

You also said that you had to abandon it in Napier. I would not have thought that routine wear would manifest so severely as to make it impossible to limp home. A dragging clutch is a pain, but rideable (you can ride with no clutch at all). A slipping clutch will make for slow progress but gentled along it will get there .
h

[Mom]

but i like it hard! -

I like it hard too really.


The washer trick's an old one. Used many a time by many. Will do no harm, may not do much good. Only thing is to make sure that you are not going to coil bind the spring - ie all movement used up and it is a solid thing. That will snap your cable quickish.

But I am puzzled. You speak of worn plates, which would manifest as slippage. But the you say


which implies drag. Which is the exact reverse! Is it slipping (bike won't go up hills, engine races, appears to have no power). Or dragging (won't go into gear, hard to get into neutral, creeps forward in first gear with clutch disengaged, gear changes clonk or are hard to make ) ?

You also said that you had to abandon it in Napier. I would not have thought that routine wear would manifest so severely as to make it impossible to limp home. A dragging clutch is a pain, but rideable (you can ride with no clutch at all). A slipping clutch will make for slow progress but gentled along it will get there .
h


Ah well you see, it is dragging, using your diagnostic description. It was not left in Napier for the clutch though, It was far naughtier than that...LOL

I have no idea what the plates look like, hence the I am taking it apart to find out when I get it home. Might pick your technical brain when I do :yes:

[Ixion]

I like it hard too really.




Ah well you see, it is dragging, using your diagnostic description. It was not left in Napier for the clutch though, It was far naughtier than that...LOL

I have no idea what the plates look like, hence the I am taking it apart to find out when I get it home. Might pick your technical brain when I do :yes:

Dragging, check for worn release mechanism (often overlooked). Make sure no one has left the little ball out. Bent pushrod. Warped plates (friction and plain) . Worn gearbox bearings. Worn thrust bearing. Badly worn basket. Bent spring posts. Check that all washers and spacers are there, in the right places, the right way round (yes, there usually is a right and wrong way) and not overly warn. Check the brass bush usually to be found in the centre of the basket.

More severe derangements can manifest as clutch drag - bent or twisted crankshaft, bent gearbox main shaft , even a twisted frame. But these are very rare.

[Mom]

Dragging, check for worn release mechanism (often overlooked). Make sure no one has left the little ball out. Bent pushrod. Warped plates (friction and plain) . Worn gearbox bearings. Worn thrust bearing. Badly worn basket. Bent spring posts. Check that all washers and spacers are there, in the right places, the right way round (yes, there usually is a right and wrong way) and not overly warn. Check the brass bush usually to be found in the centre of the basket.

More severe derangements can manifest as clutch drag - bent or twisted crankshaft, bent gearbox main shaft , even a twisted frame. But these are very rare.

Thank you, I talked to the nice man at the dealers and he suggested the basket might be the problem, I am really looking forward to getting it to bits so I can check. At least now I have the exploded diagrams, and know the tolerances that I need to check for. Should be interesting. I am not considering the engine innards as a culprit at this stage *fingers crossed* and all that.

[zzzbang]

ok cool, i was going to buy new ones, but sod that! I'll buy 2nd hand ones! I need a specal holder tool and socket thing to undo my clutch tho, damn its tricky.

I'll aslo give george a call and see what he says, he might actually know what hes talking about.

You can always use a tyre lever to hold it from moving while undoing the bolt... but the last time i saw that technique being used the clutch needed some repairing :clap:

[Patch]

ffs - Use a rattle gun to undo the clutch basket retaining nut - no need for a clutch tool

The pics are for a different machine, but the procedure is basicly the same. It will at least give you some idea of what things look like.

Pic 1: 12 = pressure plate
21 = retaining nut
6,7,8 = fibre friction plate,
9,10,11 = clutch plate
4 = inner clutch basket (small one)
3 = outter clutch basket (big one)
Pic 2: a reversible homemade clutch tool
pic 3: outer clutch basket, inner clutch basket held by the retaining nut
pic 4: basket and plates
pic 5: torquing the pressure plate (check to see if your bike has the same torque values)


If you re-use the original clutch pack - remember to re-install all the plates in the same order as you disassembled them.
You can perform this job with the bike on its sidestand without draining the oil.

[munterk6]

I had a dragging clutch problem on a 88 GSXR750J recently, replaced friction plates, steel plates, clutch hub, and clutch basket all with brand new genuine parts(US$657) and the bloody thing still dragged!! Ended up selling it...you would think with a brand new clutch it would behave like a brand new clutch? NAH!!!!:angry2:

[barty5]

ok cool, i was going to buy new ones, but sod that! I'll buy 2nd hand ones! I need a specal holder tool and socket thing to undo my clutch tho, damn its tricky.

I'll aslo give george a call and see what he says, he might actually know what hes talking about.

when your at the wreckers get an xtra steel plate for the clutch and weld a long bolt to each side to act as handles this will hold clutch special tool made.

[Mom]

I had a dragging clutch problem on a 88 GSXR750J recently, replaced friction plates, steel plates, clutch hub, and clutch basket all with brand new genuine parts(US$657) and the bloody thing still dragged!! Ended up selling it...you would think with a brand new clutch it would behave like a brand new clutch? NAH!!!!:angry2:

Why then did it keep dragging?

Hey and Patch, thanks for your post, only one very slight problem, I dont have a rattle gun, I will be doing it the hard way I am afraid.

[Patch]

only one very slight problem, I dont have a rattle gun,
put some lippy on, batter your eyelids and ask your local tyre shop to undo it. Just take your own socket with ya - doubt they'll have the right size.

Or jusk ask someone here, I have the gear, but your miles away. :niceone:

[Mom]

put some lippy on, batter your eyelids and ask your local tyre shop to undo it. Just take your own socket with ya - doubt they'll have the right size.

Or jusk ask someone here, I have the gear, but your miles away. :niceone:

Good thinking batman, lippy and eyelashes should do the trick.:sunny:

[Ixion]

Why then did it keep dragging?

Hey and Patch, thanks for your post, only one very slight problem, I dont have a rattle gun, I will be doing it the hard way I am afraid.

Sing out if you want me to drop by with compressor and rattle gun

I forgot one not uncommon cause of clutch drag: Someone trying to compensate for a worn, slipping clutch by putting washers under the springs. or using incorrect (longer) springs.

[Mom]

Sing out if you want me to drop by with compressor and rattle gun

I forgot one not uncommon cause of clutch drag: Someone trying to compensate for a worn, slipping clutch by putting washers under the springs. or using incorrect (longer) springs.

I have the compressor :yes:

Yeah, the proof of this one will be in the taking of it apart I think. Will whistle out when I get the bike back home. Thanks Ixion.

[MSTRS]

Why then did it keep dragging?

Hey and Patch, thanks for your post, only one very slight problem, I dont have a rattle gun, I will be doing it the hard way I am afraid.

A clutch will drag (trying to creep forward when in gear with the clutch lever pulled in...or hard to get into neutral) if the plates are not releasing properly. Only 2 ways this can happen...1/. At least 1 steel plate and it's fibre mate are sticking together (warp?) or 2/. The mechanism that presses on the pressure plate is not fully depressing the pp (worn faces or incorrect cable adjustment).

Clutch plates below thickness will result in a slipping clutch (engines revs faster without the bike moving faster). Clutch springs below length will do the same. So will glazed plates. As will an incorrect oil.

Good score on the manual. It will be invaluable. You do know that Frosty is the XJ expert? Apparently.

[Patch]

Would pay to measure the clutch cable, depending on its age, it may have stretched some. Worn pushrods, don't help either.


On a side note, unless you plan to change the bearing under the clutch baskets - there is no need to take them off i.e. no need for the rattle gun, unless Yamaha has a different configuration to Suzuki. Just a thought.

[Mom]

Would pay to measure the clutch cable, depending on its age, it may have stretched some. Worn pushrods, don't help either.


On a side note, unless you plan to change the bearing under the clutch baskets - there is no need to take them off i.e. no need for the rattle gun, unless Yamaha has a different configuration to Suzuki. Just a thought.

Now you see, there is smart advice, thank you. As far as the cable goes, I will be replacing it anyway as I suspect it is original.

[dpex]

ok cool, i was going to buy new ones, but sod that! I'll buy 2nd hand ones! I need a specal holder tool and socket thing to undo my clutch tho, damn its tricky.

I'll aslo give george a call and see what he says, he might actually know what hes talking about.

RM. I watched, somewhat fascinated, as my Yami Dealer foreman, Gavin Veltmyer, took apart his clutch (on A KTM), btween races at Taupo. He used some long nuts to hold the whole edifice in place till he'd released the set of 'holding' nuts. Then he backed off the tricky nuts and, bingo, the clutch came apart without various parts spanging all over the place, as you'd expect the springs to cause.


If all else fails, give Gav a call at Henderson Yamaha. He's a thoroughly decent and helpful fellow, despite the fact he's a Motard madman!