Best engine configuration?

[Whynot]

Well, i have just returned to the 4 cylinder world after spending the last year or so on a V-twin and was thinking about the pros and cons of each ...

So ... what is your favorite engine configuration and why?

[Oakie]

I've often wondered if a parallel twin has any advantages over either a V twin or an inline four. Anyone?

[Blackshear]

Straight six.
No doubt.

[boman]

I have owned and ridden V4 Honda, Inline fours, and my current ride a V-twin. Love the V4 and Inline four for their smoothness. Absolutely love the V-twin for the tourque and the sheer fun in the twisties, IMHO.


:banana::clap::argue:

[peasea]

It depends on the application.

In a naturally aspirated world you can't beat a V8 for towing and a V-twin in the bike world for much the same reason; heavily loaded V-twins take lard-arses and camping gear in their stride. For racing some V-twins perform well in certain areas (like the Britten) whereas straight-fours do better in others (OHC helps both) and even the old British twins can be made to fly but they last about as long as fire crackers. The old pushrod triples had their moments too but seriously, pushrods are less than hi-tech.

Also; if you really want to go fast...... give pistons a miss.

[Insanity_rules]

Ridden lots of different configurations but V-twins are my favourite. Love the torque and the punch out of corners.

[James Deuce]

3 cylinder, direct injection, two stroke turbo-diesel.

[peasea]

3 cylinder, direct injection, two stroke turbo-diesel.

You're drunk again, right?

[EJK]

Straight six.
No doubt.

:sunny:

International Engine of the Year 2008
BMW 3.0-litre Twin-Turbo (135i, 335i, X6)

[peasea]

:sunny:

International Engine of the Year 2008
BMW 3.0-litre Twin-Turbo (135i, 335i, X6)

BMW? Meh!


http://wot.motortrend.com/6260088/auto-news/chevy-restricting-zr1-sales-to-selected-top-dealerships/index.html

[Ocean1]

VVT-I asymmetrical radial triple.

[peasea]

VVT-I asymmetrical radial triple.

No good in a scooter though.

[McDuck]

IL4 because i havnt had anything else

[Blackshear]

BMW? Meh!


http://wot.motortrend.com/6260088/auto-news/chevy-restricting-zr1-sales-to-selected-top-dealerships/index.html

http://people.bath.ac.uk/ccsshb/12cyl/
You can do anything with cubes.

[Ocean1]

No good in a scooter though.

Structurally good shape, hugely flexible and inherently well ballanced. Turn on/off whichever cylinders you need and tune the timing/fueling to suit.

[peasea]

Structurally good shape, hugely flexible and inherently well ballanced. Turn on/off whichever cylinders you need and tune the timing/fueling to suit.

Ok, a big scooter then. A pink one.

[boman]

But then again there is the V-1650 Merlin or the Pratt & Whitney R-1830 Twin Wasp Radial. Both sound absolutely phenomenal at revs.

[peasea]

http://people.bath.ac.uk/ccsshb/12cyl/
You can do anything with cubes.


To a certain degree.
Even Clarkson likes the ZR1.

[EJK]

http://people.bath.ac.uk/ccsshb/12cyl/
You can do anything with cubes.

Shit! So the Caltex ad was actually real!!



Edit:

Even at its most efficient power setting, the big 14 consumes 1,660 gallons of heavy fuel oil per hour
That's just insane...

[Blackshear]

To a certain degree.
Even Clarkson likes the ZR1.

Lol, ja.
Even in his non-entertaining factual way.
Loved when they set off the car alarms though ha ha.


But he rode a scooter. A vespa, even. He cannot be used as rebuttal!


But I wouldn't mind a ZR1 :pinch:
Alongside my RB26DETT S13. :love:
When I get it, anyway.

[EJK]

Alongside my RB26DETT S13. :love:
When I get it, anyway.

Very nice!


Not related but I just found this. Thought I should share
From BMW M5 S85 V10 Engine, another my fav.

[peasea]

Lol, ja.
Even in his non-entertaining factual way.
Loved when they set off the car alarms though ha ha.


But he rode a scooter. A vespa, even. He cannot be used as rebuttal!


But I wouldn't mind a ZR1 :pinch:
Alongside my RB26DETT S13. :love:
When I get it, anyway.

I only used his appraisal coz he's such a cynical cock especially when it comes to US tin. (Or plastic, as the case may be.)

Either way, thank you LOTUS for a primo engine.

What's wrong with a Vespa anyway, it's what all sports bike riders aspire to.

[peasea]

Very nice!


Not related but I just found this. Thought I should share
From BMW M5 S85 V10 Engine, another my fav.

Whoever set up that lot probably went cross-eyed.

Notice there's a bolt missing?

[EJK]

I only used his appraisal coz he's such a cynical cock especially when it comes to US tin. (Or plastic, as the case may be.)

Either way, thank you LOTUS for a primo engine.


The Toyota one? :lol:

[peasea]

The Toyota one? :lol:
No this one; it's water cooled.

[Blackshear]

Very nice!


Not related but I just found this. Thought I should share
From BMW M5 S85 V10 Engine, another my fav.
Holy crap. Imagine the feeling you would have, after finishing up that build. Go to shake out your cloths, and give yourself a pat on th- TINGGGG TING TING. And a bolt is sitting on the ground in front of you.

I only used his appraisal coz he's such a cynical cock especially when it comes to US tin. (Or plastic, as the case may be.)

Either way, thank you LOTUS for a primo engine.

What's wrong with a Vespa anyway, it's what all sports bike riders aspire to.
The boot ha ha.
He's a funny bugger, always watch that show. His snide remarks towards our culture are actually funny!

2ZZ VVTL-i. One supercharged engine sipping on bio I'll never have enough money to own.

Vespa... Meeeh. There are better scooters, silly. Like zx-14's, thou's...

[caseye]

I've owned and Ridden paralell twins,a tripleand an inline 4
You can't beat the torque of a V twin and the fun of coming out of a corener throttling on hard, they just pull forever and brakes what are they, wind off and you damn near stop on a dime.

[peasea]

I've owned and Ridden paralell twins,a tripleand an inline 4
You can't beat the torque of a V twin and the fun of coming out of a corener throttling on hard, they just pull forever and brakes what are they, wind off and you damn near stop on a dime.

Engine braking, I like engine braking. (In fact, I need it...)

[Rhino]

Boxer 6 cylinder. Ride a Goldwing for a few days and you will see what I mean.

[mynameis]

Flintstones

[Blatman]

Most votes were either for a V-twin or an inline 4.
But let their powers combine....and we have the mighty V4 !
ooooo.....ahhhh.....

[Motu]

Engine braking, I like engine braking. (In fact, I need it...)

I hate it - it's a motorcycling sin.MotoGP have expended a lot of effort the reduce the effects of engine braking - slipper clutches,computer controlled throttles to lift under shut throttle conditions to reduce engine braking effects.All to replicate a two stroke.

I prefer singles and twins,of any configuration.These days you can have any firing interval you want,engine configuration is just a packaging and marketing ploy.I don't like multis,they just don't spell motorcycle to me.However triples of any sort are extra special.

[gammaguy]

stepped square four cylinder,diagonal firing rotary disc valve induction two stroke.

nothing else comes close:bleh:

[peasea]

I hate it - it's a motorcycling sin.MotoGP have expended a lot of effort the reduce the effects of engine braking - slipper clutches,computer controlled throttles to lift under shut throttle conditions to reduce engine braking effects.All to replicate a two stroke.

I prefer singles and twins,of any configuration.These days you can have any firing interval you want,engine configuration is just a packaging and marketing ploy.I don't like multis,they just don't spell motorcycle to me.However triples of any sort are extra special.


Even those with pushrods?
Nitrous?
Big bore kits?
Stroker cranks?
Ete, etc..........

[peasea]

stepped square four cylinder,diagonal firing rotary disc valve induction two stroke.

nothing else comes close:bleh:

Ok, I give up.
Which bike are they in?

[Madmax]

But then again there is the V-1650 Merlin or the Pratt & Whitney R-1830 Twin Wasp Radial. Both sound absolutely phenomenal at revs.
Pratt & Whitney R-4360 Wasp Major
Napier lion W-12

[Blackshear]

Pratt & Whitney R-4360 Wasp Major
Napier lion W-12

How many hours of correct engine starting experience do you need before attempting to start this behemoth?
Cleaning 56 spark plugs doesn't sound fun.

[nudemetalz]

me?
I like the pushrod 90 degree v-twin...... ;)
No potatoes there.

[Motu]

Even those with pushrods?


Most definitely....and a nice set of pipes to make it purrrr fect.

[peasea]

Most definitely....and a nice set of pipes to make it purrrr fect.

We'll probably finish with a Viking 3-1.
Hmmmmm.

[Dolph]

Well,...I'm only on my first bike and after mucho, mucho research I decided on a V-twin Honda VTR250. I like the torque,...but then again,...I've nothing to really compare it to !! I ilke the engine breaking though,...it's helping me learn to corner :clap:

[Ocean1]

The Toyota one? :lol:


2ZZ VVTL-i. One supercharged engine sipping on bio I'll never have enough money to own.

If you have a close look at a Toyota VVT-I engine you'll notice the word Yamaha cast into the head.

[peasea]

Well,...I'm only on my first bike and after mucho, mucho research I decided on a V-twin Honda VTR250. I like the torque,...but then again,...I've nothing to really compare it to !! I ilke the engine breaking though,...it's helping me learn to corner :clap:

Just use it BEFORE you corner. Letting the clutch out in a hurry (with engine braking actually making a difference) halfway round a corner (especially in the wet) will colour your gruns for sure.

[peasea]

If you have a close look at a Toyota VVT-I engine you'll notice the word Yamaha cast into the head.

Nothing a good grinder won't fix.

[Ixion]

One's enough.
Two's plenty.
Three's luxury.
Four's a car.
More's absurd.

[The Pastor]

absured yes.

I've only ownd IL4's and i dont think i'll go il4 again.

Maybe single or twin. most probably air cooled.

although i'd take anything 2 stroke.

what I would love to ride would be a 6 cylinder 250 or smaller. maybe ever a 125. Oh yeah!

[peasea]

Interesting to see that the V2 is favoured, forget brands, just think about the form.

[Ixion]

I have never been convinced that anyone needs more than one cylinder. For anything. More just means more things to wear out and go wrong. If more power is needed, just make it bigger.

[peasea]

One's enough.
Two's plenty.
Three's luxury.
Four's a car.
More's absurd.

What's a bsurd?

[ducatilover]

absured yes.

I've only ownd IL4's and i dont think i'll go il4 again.

Maybe single or twin. most probably air cooled.

although i'd take anything 2 stroke.

what I would love to ride would be a 6 cylinder 250 or smaller. maybe ever a 125. Oh yeah!

the honda rc162 was a 6 cyl 250

I like v-faurs...alot!:hug:

[R6_kid]

The new crossplane crankshaft R1 sounds like a hoot.

Having ridden a VTR1000 I have to say that torque is nice. But having ridden a GSXR1000 I'd also have to say that all out power puts you in your place. The 675 Stripple was an enjoyable balance of torque and good rev-abilty.

Perhaps the 1050 Speed Triple will be the goer.

And then there are two strokes to add to the mix! A modern YPVS V4 500 would be a bit of fun alright :shutup::blink::shit:

[Anarkist]

V-Twin sounds sexy as <3

[Pwalo]

I've tried pretty well all configurations (other than a IL6 , and opposed 4s), and I enjoy riding the L twins best of all.

I thinks it's because I'm old and lazy, and I can't hear the IL4s as they scream pass me.

[James Deuce]

The new crossplane crankshaft R1 sounds like a hoot.

Having ridden a VTR1000 I have to say that torque is nice. But having ridden a GSXR1000 I'd also have to say that all out power puts you in your place. The 675 Stripple was an enjoyable balance of torque and good rev-abilty.

Perhaps the 1050 Speed Triple will be the goer.

And then there are two strokes to add to the mix! A modern YPVS V4 500 would be a bit of fun alright :shutup::blink::shit:

The GSXR1000 puts out more torque through a greater percentage of the rev range than the VTR. That is the genius of the K5-K7 engine. V (or) L twins don't make noticeably more torque than their IL4 opponents they just generally make more torque earlier than an IL4 where the IL4 tends to have torque and HP peaks bunched close together. I still think the K5 engine is the best of the lot.

The emissions laws are starting to steal ease of use, that connection between throttle and rear wheel.

HP is a function of Torque and revs not engine layout.

More cylinders equals smaller pistons which equals higher max piston speeds which equals more fuel burnt in a given time which equals more energy sent to the back wheel.

[Patch]

3 cylinder, direct injection, two stroke turbo-diesel.


You're drunk again, right?
The DC locomotive engine is a 2 smoke diesel V10 if I remember correctly


I have never been convinced that anyone needs more than one cylinder. For anything. More just means more things to wear out and go wrong. If more power is needed, just make it bigger.
ooooo, 1000cc big banger



Having owned both an IL4 and the big V-Twin - I still own the twin, you just can't beat its 'presence'. It has soul and character, which I prefer.

Twin for the Win.

[lankyman]

Also; if you really want to go fast...... give pistons a miss.

You mean like this fulla.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48foOHK2tyA

[Pussy]

The DC locomotive engine is a 2 smoke diesel V10 if I remember correctly

Tha DC (rebuilt DA) has a V12 two stroke diesel, and the DBr (rebuilt DB) has the V8 two stroke diesel

[dipshit]

The GSXR1000 puts out more torque through a greater percentage of the rev range than the VTR. That is the genius of the K5-K7 engine. V (or) L twins don't make noticeably more torque than their IL4 opponents they just generally make more torque earlier than an IL4 where the IL4 tends to have torque and HP peaks bunched close together. I still think the K5 engine is the best of the lot.

But you still have to get that power to the ground. A V-twin's slow pulses, particularly when lower in the rpm range, become a big advantage out in the real world of cold wet public roads with lose chip seal etc.

Smooth buzzy il4's that make lots of power higher in their rpm range need extra sticky tyres or its highside city.

[James Deuce]

But you still have to get that power to the ground. A V-twin's slow pulses, particularly when lower in the rpm range, become a big advantage out in the real world of cold wet public roads with lose chip seal etc.

Smooth buzzy il4's that make lots of power higher in their rpm range need extra sticky tyres or its highside city.

The K5-K7 pulls like a school boy from take off. It is easy to spin the back wheel up on the exit of a corner almost irrespective of gear selected and revs indicated. That particular IL4 makes a mockery of the "superiority" of the V/L twin layout having a better connection with the rider. It's so good it makes the bike feel slow.

[Cajun]

i personally don't like v-twin motors, riden a number of bikes with them, vtr, tl, sv, rsvr, air cooled ducatis

I find the motors noisy lumpy clunky, compred to to a il4, which i like.

Personally i think the v4 motors are one of better confiugations, but in turn they are alot more complex to work on in mantainace etc.

[Hitcher]

In my relatively short life as a motorcyclist I have owned three inline-fours, a V-4 and an L-twin. Each had their own character and it's hard to pick a favourite.

Of all of those engine types, the V-4 was competent yet uninspiring when compared to its inline cousins.

Currently I am in love with an L-twin. Who knows where my allegiances will lie in the future.

[Madmax]

How many hours of correct engine starting experience do you need before attempting to start this behemoth?
Cleaning 56 spark plugs doesn't sound fun.

Being a radial engine the lower cylinders can fill with oil
leaked past the rings,
you have to walk the prop through four rotations
feeling for hydraulicking or the rods bend
(you do not want to know how long it takes to change
a rod/crank assembly)
there are about six different starter types
single engine start time is about 1/2 hour
if checking oil etc
:blink:

[dipshit]

The K5-K7 pulls like a school boy from take off. It is easy to spin the back wheel up on the exit of a corner almost irrespective of gear selected and revs indicated.

That's exactly what I am talking about. Easily spinning the back up is a downside. A V-twin could drive a lot better out of a corner with a lot less fuss because of the way they put the power down. It's having the power delivered in pulses rather than a smooth buzz that helps prevent a tyre spinning up.

It's surprising how much you can just wind on the gas, even on wet dodgy roads and they just grip and accelerate. When was the last time you saw a V-twin highside..?? (outside of motogp)

And why do you think the R1 has gone to an uneven firing order..??

[Blackshear]

Being a radial engine the lower cylinders can fill with oil
leaked past the rings,
you have to walk the prop through four rotations
feeling for hydraulicking or the rods bend
(you do not want to know how long it takes to change
a rod/crank assembly)
there are about six different starter types
single engine start time is about 1/2 hour
if checking oil etc
:blink:

:crazy:

I'm guessing the only people that started those things were the team of mechanics that come almost integral to the craft?! Fucked if I'm gonna let some joystick wonder start MY week of hard labor!

[cheshirecat]

straight six was my most exciting, v4 my do anything anytime, panther single most painful, two stroke triple most scary, flat four most sleepy.

[Cajun]

That's exactly what I am talking about. Easily spinning the back up is a downside. A V-twin could drive a lot better out of a corner with a lot less fuss because of the way they put the power down. It's having the power delivered in pulses rather than a smooth buzz that helps prevent a tyre spinning up.

It's surprising how much you can just wind on the gas, even on wet dodgy roads and they just grip and accelerate. When was the last time you saw a V-twin highside..?? (outside of motogp)

And why do you think the R1 has gone to an uneven firing order..??

i have seen a v-twin high side, vtr1000f.
Its all the traction control that is in that right hand, that depends if it spins up or not.

Why would ducati put Traction control on the 1098R/1198S/R etc if it did not spin up and such.

[ducatilover]

That's exactly what I am talking about. Easily spinning the back up is a downside. A V-twin could drive a lot better out of a corner with a lot less fuss because of the way they put the power down. It's having the power delivered in pulses rather than a smooth buzz that helps prevent a tyre spinning up.

It's surprising how much you can just wind on the gas, even on wet dodgy roads and they just grip and accelerate. When was the last time you saw a V-twin highside..?? (outside of motogp)

And why do you think the R1 has gone to an uneven firing order..??

Don't you mean apart from a tl thou....
Mind you they do have a sight..<_<....handling problem on the early ones.
I highsided a vtwin. nothing to do with wheel spin though:shutup:

[dipshit]

Why would ducati put Traction control on the 1098R/1198S/R etc if it did not spin up and such.

Higher up in the rev range the advantage is reduced. More of a problem when racing than on the roads.

[Laava]

I'm not a person to have favourites, but I love the feel of a V twin!

[James Deuce]

That's exactly what I am talking about. Easily spinning the back up is a downside. A V-twin could drive a lot better out of a corner with a lot less fuss because of the way they put the power down. It's having the power delivered in pulses rather than a smooth buzz that helps prevent a tyre spinning up.

It's surprising how much you can just wind on the gas, even on wet dodgy roads and they just grip and accelerate. When was the last time you saw a V-twin highside..?? (outside of motogp)

And why do you think the R1 has gone to an uneven firing order..??

I'm talking about the torque comparisons that people go on about between V/L twins and IL4s and the fact that K5-K7 engine is incredibly easy to manage with throttle control alone. It is incredibly easy to NOT spin the back up as well. I was talking about the connection to the rider rather than the rider being surprised by power he/she didn't asked for. Normally if I spin a rear up I'm going flying soon. Not so on the K5-&'s I've been lucky enough to try,

I've no doubt the crossplane crank in the R1 will be easier on tyres, but I'm not convinced that rideability will be any better than the old R1. I liked the old R1's distinct steps in power delivery myself.

[bladerider97]

Why have pistons at all.

[Sully60]

H-24 Napier Sabre (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/69/Napier_Sabre01.jpg/800px-Napier_Sabre01.jpg), built with the same ethos as most of my bucket engines, more power, stuff reliability!

Now I just have to hide the fact it's 36.54 litres too big to be legal:shifty:


It's interesting what you say about the K5/6 GSXR motor Jim, everybody reckons the later models feel soft and 'doughy' compared to that one. THe bike magazine article a couple of years ago shed some light on the differences in part throttle power figures. The K5 had up to 20 more HP at 40% throttle through most of the rev range:shit:

[Kflasher]

Tried the V-twin 748, but did not like the characteristics and did tend to ride in a gear lower than required just to keep it spinning.
But does have the pull to suck the skin off a rice pudding which I liked.

[jim.cox]

Large capacity air cooled V twin

Keep it simple

[more_fasterer]

Bike: V4

Cage: V12

[Mikkel]

Two of these (http://www.wvi.com/~sr71webmaster/J58AB.jpg) would be a hoot.

[slofox]

Sound has a lot to do with my penchant for the V-Twin config...love that burning snarl as they crank up through the revs....oh, and on the over-run as well....

[BarBender]

Longitudinal 60 degree VTwin

[peasea]

You mean like this fulla.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48foOHK2tyA

I was actually thinking more along the lines of rockets and jets but yeah, I can see where you're coming from.

[peasea]

Two of these (http://www.wvi.com/~sr71webmaster/J58AB.jpg) would be a hoot.

In a vee configuration. That'd be a right, royal chucklefest.

[nudemetalz]

The sound of this makes your hair stand on end !!!!!!

yeah !!!!!!!

Oops, it's all about best engine config, but hey....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAYcqSTVBY4

[BMWST?]

The K5-K7 pulls like a school boy from take off. It is easy to spin the back wheel up on the exit of a corner almost irrespective of gear selected and revs indicated. That particular IL4 makes a mockery of the "superiority" of the V/L twin layout having a better connection with the rider. It's so good it makes the bike feel slow.

but thats not very user freindly is it?

[BMWST?]

Having had 4s twins,2s single,4s il4(several)4s single,4s triple,v twin,flat 4 4. the best compromise between the tourqey early throttle opening V twin,and the smooth il4s(both across and inline) is a TRIPLE.It was a relatively modern incarnation though.I have ridden V4s (very nice) and two stroke square fours(very exciting),and IL6(also very exciting).So a triple for me!

[James Deuce]

but thats not very user freindly is it?

I made a subsequent post about that. You may want to read it.

[aahsv]

Interestingly Engine config differentiates the newly released top superbikes models vying for buyers this year:

Ducati 1198 - V-twin
KTM RC8r - L-twin
GSXr1000 - inline 4
Yam R1 - cross-plane inline 4
Aprilia RSV4 - V4

:drool:

[vifferman]

I DON'T KNOW!!:blank:
I haven't ridden every engine configuration, and I bet there's probably not many (if any) here that have.
I've ridden singles and parallel twins in four-stroke and two-smoke, a two-smoke triple, and various v-twins and v-fours in four stroke.
One bike I didn't like was the 1100 BMW boxer-twin; I thought it would be similar to a v-twin, but it wasn't. It felt like riding a misshapen bike with a factory below the gastank, busily churning away, but seemingly whatever activity it was engaged in (making cans of soup? Sewing flour sacks? Who knows? :confused:) had little relation to twisting the throttle, nor to my progress up the road.

What's best?
Best for what? :confused:

I currently like my V4 - it has adequate power for what I want to do, and probably a lot more'n I need. But of course, I'd still like more (torque, rather than HP).
When I first got the VFR, I thought it had a huge hole in the power delivery. It produces about the same number of horsies as the VTR it replaced, but at a few higher revs. However (but!) the VTR produced a wodge of torque starting at ~3k rpm, whereas the VFR's torque lump is a few thousand rpm higher, and is much flatter. The nett result is the VFR felt like it had a hole (which it doesn't).
But (however!) the VFR is a nicer bike to ride, all round. Feels like a much better quality 'piece of kit'.

I still miss the v-twin's character - it's lazy to ride (when you want to, you can short-shift everywhere), not as smooth as the V4 (which in turn is not as smooth but also not as buzzy as an IL4), and as others have said, the flat drone is a nice sound.
But so is the rasp of a triple, or the boom of a big single with a megaphone, or the howl of a six....

Nothing is "best", except maybe for a particular role or niche.
Thank goodness for that!

[pritch]

And why do you think the R1 has gone to an uneven firing order..??

Because it's a marketing gimmick.

You may not agree,but realistically that's what it is. :whistle:

[jono035]

EJK:

Is it just me or is that BMW engine in the picture you attached missing the valves from the head that is laid out on the right hand side?

[dipshit]

Because it's a marketing gimmick.

You may not agree,but realistically that's what it is.

You're right, i don't agree. Radially mounted brake calipers are more of a marketing gimmick than something that will help to get the power to the ground.

[pritch]

something that will help to get the power to the ground.

That's why the M1 has a cross plane crank. The R1 has it as a marketing gimmick. Albeit a good one.

[avgas]

Nothing like 1 piston going around a crank moving EVERYTHING
Plus its more natural - if ANYTHING is wrong with the engine you can still feel it. It amazes me the morons that drive/ride around with 1 cylinder off by a few degrees and they cant tell.
If only they made them past 100kW!!!!!???!!!!

[avgas]

You're right, i don't agree. Radially mounted brake calipers are more of a marketing gimmick than something that will help to get the power to the ground.
As someone who has some experience with the old R1 motor i can tell you why its not a gimmick nor does it affect performance.
The old IL4 block made a gentle rocking at the lights when you had a lumpy idle. The whole bike, very gently would rock left and right (i am talking super gentle - very hard to notice). Changing the firing order fixed it.
Beside its not the first time - shit Harley had that a VERY LONG TIME AGO.
Biggest gimmick i have seen was those bloody air rams - never go directly to airbox.

[EJK]

EJK:

Is it just me or is that BMW engine in the picture you attached missing the valves from the head that is laid out on the right hand side?

You are right. Good find :msn-wink:

[doc]

I'd buy this tomorrow, if it was available. Utter simplicity.

[rocketman1]

I have owned most.
The big V twin in my opinion is the best.
They can be a bit lumpy around town, in traffic but thats when you should ride a scooter or a pushbike, in any case.
They have a sort of SOUL that the other don't have.
Dont get me wrong I love riding the GSXR as well but through all the speed and smoothness it offers
I have no doubt that as far as reliability, power, efficiency and smooth rocket like power down to 1st gear crawling in traffic an in line 4 is hard to beat.
But its just not a V twin.
As another said there are a lot of motors as good as a V8, but you just cant beat their soul... hard to put into words

[Taz]

My bike has none of your listed options so had to click other....

[Madmax]

:crazy:

I'm guessing the only people that started those things were the team of mechanics that come almost integral to the craft?! Fucked if I'm gonna let some joystick wonder start MY week of hard labor!
I met one dude who new the engine number even witch aircraft it was in
(it gets that bad you can remember part numbers at times)
The old Napier Engines have been rebuild so many times no one knows
witch bits belong to witch
Have a look at some pics there are always a bunch of guys looking at the
engines (wonder why)

:devil2:

[Whynot]

I met one dude who new the engine number even witch aircraft it was in
(it gets that bad you can remember part numbers at times)
The old Napier Engines have been rebuild so many times no one knows
witch bits belong to witch
Have a look at some pics there are always a bunch of guys looking at the
engines (wonder why)

:devil2:

witch aircraft?
you talking about the broom?

[Madmax]

witch aircraft?
you talking about the broom?
QUOTE=Whynot;2020820]witch aircraft?
you talking about the broom?[/QUOTE]
http://www.enginehistory.org/P&W/R-4360/R-4360History.pdf
will this do
shit i think motoguzzi 120 degrie twin was cool
:devil2:

[BMWST?]

I made a subsequent post about that. You may want to read it.

i did,thanks

[warewolf]

Hmmm owned single, parallel twin, inline four, parallel twin, inline triple, inline triple, inline triple, single, single, single, single, single... (those last 5 being dirt bikes of various types). Ridden boxer twins, vee twins, L twins, vee fours, more inline fours, more parallel twins, lots more inline triples & singles. They all do the job at hand with the differentiating factors being personal preference and/or external influences (eg dirt bikes are still almost exclusively singles).

While all you folks are debating whether the V2 is better than the IL4, I would point out that the IL3 is the best of both worlds. :jerry:

But hey, one man's best is another man's belly laugh. Even if you could agree criteria, there'd still be more than one right answer for that scenario.

[Madmax]

QUOTE=Whynot;2020820]witch aircraft?
you talking about the broom?
http://www.enginehistory.org/P&W/R-4360/R-4360History.pdf
will this do
shit i think motoguzzi 120 degrie twin was cool
:devil2:[/QUOTE]
the first cyl was just about in line have the frame
the other was behind the rides arse
(i think i will give up on this game!!! wake me up when the two stroke
tripples a natural place in in life)
:devil2:

[Mikkel]

Hmmm owned single, parallel twin, inline four, parallel twin, inline triple, inline triple, inline triple, single, single, single, single, single... (those last 5 being dirt bikes of various types). Ridden boxer twins, vee twins, L twins, more inline fours, more parallel twins, lots more inline triples & singles. They all do the job at hand with the differentiating factors being personal preference and/or external influences (eg dirt bikes are still almost exclusively singles).

While all you folks are debating whether the V2 is better than the IL4, I would point out that the IL3 is the best of both worlds. :jerry:

But hey, one man's best is another man's belly laugh. Even if you could agree criteria, there'd still be more than one right answer for that scenario.

Seriously mate, with a post that sensible you don't belong here! :nono:

For the record, I suspect you might be right though.

[James Deuce]

Four stroke triples leave me cold. They sound weird, thay have none of the bottom of a well setup 4, none of the mid-range of decent twin of any config and run out of steam like a single at the top. Compared to either a 4 or twin of the same capacity of course.

Triumph have managed to make the 1050 sound like a late 70s Daihatsu Charade.

Again, I reserve the right to own my own opinion.

[Mikkel]

Again, I reserve the right to own my own opinion.

Everyone has the right to their own opinion, and in this case I am sure most wouldn't try to take it off you...

The Daytona 675 seems a very very competitive machine indeed and the wail they make coming down the straight is quite magnificient (IMO ofc).

As I have understood it there is a certain volumetric range within which each cylinder works best (resonances and shit) and so the number of cylinders depends, ultimately, upon what torque-to-power characteristic you desire versus the total displacement of the engine.

[crash harry]

IL6. As in the CBX1000. Nothing sounds more beautiful than that.

Or a 2-stroke twin-crank rotary-valve square 4 (RG500 FTW!)

[dipshit]

IL6. As in the CBX1000. Nothing sounds more beautiful than that.

Just because it sounds nice..???

How about all that weight that is spread east west..??

That's another advantage of a V-twin. Engine weight is narrow and inherently helps bike design for better left right transitions.

[James Deuce]

Just because it sounds nice..???

How about all that weight that is spread east west..??

That's another advantage of a V-twin. Engine weight is narrow and inherently helps bike design for better left right transitions.

Yeah, but it's long which affects layout, wheelbase and ergonomics. Want a comfortable longitudinal 90 degree V-Twin? Welcome to a rearward weight bias. Want a sporty L-Twin? I hope you're built like a 60kg pole vaulting Gorilla, because that's the only shape with the required athleticism to mount the tall seat AND be completely comfortable.

There's compromise in everything.

There are no bad bikes, just inflexible minds and broken bodies.

[dipshit]

There's compromise in everything.

Of course everything is full of trade-offs with one thing or another. Being good in one area can mean being bad in another area. This is why designers talk about inherent design weaknesses or strengths.

Good left right transitions is a biggie for motorcycles. Quite often the limiting factor for a rider through a chicane or a quick secession of corners is how quickly they can pick up and drop-down a bike from right to left. Not cornering clearance or traction, but how quickly they can change from one direction to another.

[Ocean1]

As I have understood it there is a certain volumetric range within which each cylinder works best (resonances and shit) and so the number of cylinders depends, ultimately, upon what torque-to-power characteristic you desire versus the total displacement of the engine.

There's a whole shitload of scale related variables where resonance and shit can/should be optomised. The Chevy 327 was developed in response to research indicating ideal cylinder volume for gas flow efficiency was around 670cc per pot. Different bore/stroke ratios and porting/fuelling arangements change that, by how much is open to debate. Better resourced debates than this one.


Yeah, but it's long which affects layout, wheelbase and ergonomics. Want a comfortable longitudinal 90 degree V-Twin? Welcome to a rearward weight bias. Want a sporty L-Twin? I hope you're built like a 60kg pole vaulting Gorilla, because that's the only shape with the required athleticism to mount the tall seat AND be completely comfortable.

There's compromise in everything.

There are no bad bikes, just inflexible minds and broken bodies.

You never did have a play on my 12R, did you dude?





Argumentitive shortarse bastard.

[Fatjim]

Yeah, but it's long which affects layout, wheelbase and ergonomics. Want a comfortable longitudinal 90 degree V-Twin? Welcome to a rearward weight bias. Want a sporty L-Twin? I hope you're built like a 60kg pole vaulting Gorilla, because that's the only shape with the required athleticism to mount the tall seat AND be completely comfortable.

There's compromise in everything.

There are no bad bikes, just inflexible minds and broken bodies.

Actually the Aprilia areboth roomy and handle reasonably well. Although with me on them they certainly are rearward biased.

[Fatjim]

This is were I think the competition restrictions on engine sizes have had a negative impact. Many engine configs can't "be all you can be" because they have been restricted. For example, the 1litre restriction in SB. Until last year the V2 was badly disadvantaged, and guess what. All the Jappers went to 4's. Great bikes the firestorm and tls (we won't mention the SV) are dead and buried because there's less incentive to develop them. The Jappers, would truely have made some awesome street bikes if they didn't have superbike classes to worry about.

If WSBK was an open class in terms of displacement I think we'd see better street bikes, not JUST the push for high siding jappers that we've had for the last 8 years.

[pritch]

For example, the 1litre restriction in SB.

That restriction seems somewhat flexible, allowing as it does the 1198 Ducati.

Then there is the 675 Triumph in the 600cc Supersports class.

The more the merrier?

[James Deuce]

There's a whole shitload of scale related variables where resonance and shit can/should be optomised. The Chevy 327 was developed in response to research indicating ideal cylinder volume for gas flow efficiency was around 670cc per pot. Different bore/stroke ratios and porting/fuelling arangements change that, by how much is open to debate. Better resourced debates than this one.



You never did have a play on my 12R, did you dude?





Argumentitive shortarse bastard.

No, but I have played with a variety of 9 and 12 S models. 45 degree V-Twin FTW!

[James Deuce]

Actually the Aprilia areboth roomy and handle reasonably well. Although with me on them they certainly are rearward biased.

60 Degree isn't it?

[James Deuce]

This is were I think the competition restrictions on engine sizes have had a negative impact. Many engine configs can't "be all you can be" because they have been restricted. For example, the 1litre restriction in SB. Until last year the V2 was badly disadvantaged, and guess what. All the Jappers went to 4's. Great bikes the firestorm and tls (we won't mention the SV) are dead and buried because there's less incentive to develop them. The Jappers, would truely have made some awesome street bikes if they didn't have superbike classes to worry about.

If WSBK was an open class in terms of displacement I think we'd see better street bikes, not JUST the push for high siding jappers that we've had for the last 8 years.


Dead right. We need to take the focus off the capacity of a petrol fired engine and replace it with a focus on limiting how many Mega Joules a bike can consume during a race. That would open things up significantly on both the motive power and energy source. Say 6-700 MJ for the top class, 400 for tier 2 and and 200 for the tiddlers.

You'd get electric bikes, fuel cell, hydrogen, diesel, bioethanol, and of course petrol. Makes racing look like it's trying to help out on the CO2 emissions front as well.

Can you imagine the SMART entry pissing off into the distance for the first half a dozen laps and then having to turn the wick down for the rest of the race to conserve batteries, vs a 2 litre petrol V5 Honda with a max rev limit of 1500rpm? Vw with a turbo diesel triple of 1.3 litres, and the Apple and Pear growers board with a bio-ethanol powered 800cc V4?

[Sully60]

No, but I have played with a variety of 9 and 12 S models. 45 degree V-Twin FTW!

"Although JD enjoyed the company of twins the thought of a 'rocking couple' was just one step too far".

[dipshit]

I made a subsequent post about that. You may want to read it.

But you were saying that you can control when it spins up and the amount of spinning with throttle control.

What if it didn't spin up at all and your throttle now controlled how much you accelerated out of a corner rather than using the throttle to control wheel spin.

Like we all know when riding a reasonably powerful il4 around on wet city streets, that if you wind on too much throttle you can play spinning fishtails down the street.

Try that on a V-twin and you will more than likely end up accelerating very fast down the street instead of spinning up.

Yes..?

[Beeza]

One-lungers. Singles.

Best sound, good low and midrange torque. Power you can actually use, and not just read about or watch on TV and brag about in the pub.

[James Deuce]

But you were saying that you can control when it spins up and the amount of spinning with throttle control.

What if it didn't spin up at all and your throttle now controlled how much you accelerated out of a corner rather than using the throttle to control wheel spin.

Like we all know when riding a reasonably powerful il4 around on wet city streets, that if you wind on too much throttle you can play spinning fishtails down the street.

Try that on a V-twin and you will more than likely end up accelerating very fast down the street instead of spinning up.

Yes..?

You're thinking waaay too hard. You make throttle control sound random and like grip is out of the scope of the understanding of the rider.

[Motu]

Throttle control shouldn't ever come into the equation - the throttle goes to the stop,and then rider control takes over.

[dipshit]

You're thinking waaay too hard. You make throttle control sound random and like grip is out of the scope of the understanding of the rider.

No, i'm talking about how a bike hooks up and puts the power to the ground.

I remember F3 guys when GSX-R400's were popular taking out one plug and racing on 3 cylinders when it was pissing down at Levels once. They were able to go faster in the wet like that because they ended up with better traction instead of the silky smooth power delivery spinning up.

And sometimes it is out of the scope of the rider..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LShY-dIns8g

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9zNUPDmnz4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=092x6rr5lPw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtofbxmlv8Y

[Ocean1]

No, but I have played with a variety of 9 and 12 S models. 45 degree V-Twin FTW!

Interested in a mild trundle Sunday?


This is were I think the competition restrictions on engine sizes have had a negative impact.

Yup, they make what sells. Pity about the idiots who believe what they see ont' telly saturday arvo might make a good road bike. Or that there's any functional relationship between that and what they see on the showroom floor.


Dead right. We need to take the focus off the capacity of a petrol fired engine and replace it with a focus on limiting how many Mega Joules a bike can consume during a race.

Meh. I tried suggesting sealed fuel cells to some of the racing dudes, that that should be the only restriction. Weren't impressed, phrases like chequebook engineering abounded. Still, reckon a completely open class would be an eye opener for the conservatists.

[James Deuce]

Interested in a mild trundle Sunday?



I don't have a bike. Silly thing fell down in the wind when I wasn't looking.

[Ocean1]

I don't have a bike. Silly thing fell down in the wind when I wasn't looking.

I have two machines here gathering dust and somewhat in need of a run, take your pick.

[Grahameeboy]

Interesting that V Twins still more popular despite the R1's, Gixxers etc...

[Motu]

DESPITE? Because of maybe?

[mikeey01]

Triumph have managed to make the 1050 sound like a late 70s Daihatsu Charade.

lol :rofl: :niceone:

[caseye]

That Norton wankel engined bike does take some getting used to, but what a sound. V Twins still rule.

[H00dz]

Now I'm a solid Inline four type of guy, but theres no doubting the truly rude sound a V twin give off.....

[Forest]

It depends on the application.
Also; if you really want to go fast...... give pistons a miss.

If I ever win the lottery, I will go out and order one of these:

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/gxc07mL4ao4&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/gxc07mL4ao4&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

[peasea]

If I ever win the lottery, I will go out and order one of these:

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/gxc07mL4ao4&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/gxc07mL4ao4&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

My point exactly.........

[cheshirecat]

Then there is this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7yVqos4yKA)

Bit tempermental in the tuning department apparently.
They were working on a 50cc 4 stroke triple before pulling out.

[red675]

Well, I have just returned to the 4 cylinder world after spending the last year or so on a V-twin and was thinking about the pros and cons of each ...

So ... what is your favorite engine configuration and why?
your v-twin boys will spend their lives defending their purchase decision of Italian exotica but then they have to given the prices (and the absurdity of banging their heads against the rest of the world's wall performance-wise)

your 4 cylinder boys have learnt nothing since 1969 when the Honda CB750 took on the world and lost in all terms except reliability (handling and power of the BSA Rocket 3 was heaps better)

and then there was the 4 cyclinder Z1 - widow-maker didn't they call it ? the first in a long line of jap fours that went better in straight lines

so you have the sixes (CBX and Z1300) which my mechanics professor described as "nonsense" (he wasn't quite right but they were a tad impractical so he wasn't totally off the mark) or triples - doh

[McJim]

I prefer a twin because of the early delivery of useable torque. I bought my Ducati because it is cheaper to buy and maintain than a Hyosung 650. Japanese bikes were too exotic for me with lots of valves, injection, computer gadgets and stuff that would be great on the race track but impractical for day to day riding.

In my opinion about 90% of riders today have far more bike than they can handle. We aren't all Valentino Rossi or Casey Stoner so why do we have to have the latest greatest crotch rocket with a gazillion ponies under our arses?

I get around fine with only 53hp. (and a sackful of torque :devil2:)

[LBD]

I prefer a twin because of the early delivery of useable torque.


That and for me it is the desmo valve action as a good engineering solution to excellent valve control

[McJim]

That and for me it is the desmo valve action as a good engineering solution to excellent valve control

Or you could eliminate valve float by making the valves smaller and having more of them...y'know - more moving parts = more that can go wrong = less reliability :rofl: A bit like Jappas!

[warewolf]

Four stroke triples leave me cold. They sound weird, thay have none of the bottom of a well setup 4, none of the mid-range of decent twin of any config and run out of steam like a single at the top. Compared to either a 4 or twin of the same capacity of course.You're a hard man to please, Jimbo.

And you've been sniffin' too much high-octane go-juice...

[caseye]

The V TWINS are winning, as always. :motu:

[Mikkel]

Dead right. We need to take the focus off the capacity of a petrol fired engine and replace it with a focus on limiting how many Mega Joules a bike can consume during a race. That would open things up significantly on both the motive power and energy source. Say 6-700 MJ for the top class, 400 for tier 2 and and 200 for the tiddlers.

But then it becomes a fight on aerodynamics instead. If you go twice as fast it'll require four times the energy to cover the same distance - due to wind resistance.


I prefer a twin because of the early delivery of useable torque. I bought my Ducati because it is cheaper to buy and maintain than a Hyosung 650. Japanese bikes were too exotic for me with lots of valves, injection, computer gadgets and stuff that would be great on the race track but impractical for day to day riding.

...

I get around fine with only 53hp. (and a sackful of torque :devil2:)

Why not a thumper then? 53 hps is about what I get at the wheel for my 610 ccm single-cylinder motard. It crashes better than the Ducati, it's better on gravel and it's made in Italy too. Oh, and it has the added benefit of expanding your pain threshold on longer rides - unless you stand up all the time of course.

[98tls]

But then it becomes a fight on aerodynamics instead. If you go twice as fast it'll require four times the energy to cover the same distance - due to wind resistance.



Why not a thumper then? 53 hps is about what I get at the wheel for my 610 ccm single-cylinder motard. It crashes better than the Ducati, it's better on gravel and it's made in Italy too. Oh, and it has the added benefit of expanding your pain threshold on longer rides - unless you stand up all the time of course. The second last time i saw you you could hardly stand up at all.:innocent:

[Mikkel]

The second last time i saw you you could hardly stand up at all.:innocent:

I'm amazed you were actually able to use your eyes at all at that point :p

[LBD]

Or you could eliminate valve float by making the valves smaller and having more of them...y'know - more moving parts = more that can go wrong = less reliability :rofl: A bit like Jappas!

Desmo vales can still open quicker, stay open longer and then close quicker irrespective of the size and weight of a convential valve....

[Madmax]

I met one dude who new the engine number even witch aircraft it was in
(it gets that bad you can remember part numbers at times)
The old Napier Engines have been rebuild so many times no one knows
witch bits belong to witch
Have a look at some pics there are always a bunch of guys looking at the
engines (wonder why)

:devil2:
just for those interested this is a wright 3350
the PRTs and stuff have been blanked off
but still sounds good
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2d4HQ8ZM_2k
they sound a bit different with the PRTs (3 of them,read turbo chargers/power recovery turbines)
on
maybe a small version for a bike would be cool
i know some model makers who could make one

Max
:innocent:

[Toaster]

I love the in-line four for sheer power but I must say I loved even more the torque and rumble of the big v-twin.

Oh and hi from the violence in Thailand too... its bloody crazy over here. One of the nuttiest places to ride a motorcycle in Bangkok, next to Rome.

Time to go find a beach and drink beer.