What would you ask MNZ for?

[FROSTY]

Given the heated discussion raised about Paul S leaving MNZ I wonder what the ROAD racers are expecting or possibly wanting from MNZ.
Also of course what support/assistance those behind the scenes at the various road race clubs around the country expect and hope for.

[Shaun P]

A way to communicate riders thoughts and ideas, with feedback.

[scrivy]

A general concensus of opinion from the riders with a democratic decision being made on the outcome.
From dates, to numbers of rounds, to types of classes present, to rules of classes, to entry fees, to promotion etc, etc.....
(As per http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=96822&page=3)

I have been involved in the NZ racing scene for over 22 years, and have never had any of my ideas or feedback taken onboard by the governing body. So, who are they asking for ideas? How are they making their assumptions on what we the riders want?

Communication is the key. LOTS of it!!
I don't wanna bag MNZ, but crisis time is upon us. Let's learn from the f@ck ups, and power forward under a common theme.

Scrivy

[roadracingoldfart]

A general concensus of opinion from the riders with a democratic decision being made on the outcome.
From dates, to numbers of rounds, to types of classes present, to rules of classes, to entry fees, to promotion etc, etc.....
(As per http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=96822&page=3)

I have been involved in the NZ racing scene for over 22 years, and have never had any of my ideas or feedback taken onboard by the governing body. So, who are they asking for ideas? How are they making their assumptions on what we the riders want?

Communication is the key. LOTS of it!!
I don't wanna bag MNZ, but crisis time is upon us. Let's learn from the f@ck ups, and power forward under a common theme.

Scrivy


I, with that man :first:

[KS34]

Communication is the big one. If I wasn't on kiwibiker I would have no Idea about what has happened regarding Paul Stewart. I'm kissing possible sponsors at the moment, If they get a wiff of this sort of uncertanty within the sport they wont come near me.

[sidecar bob]

Im surprised Scrivy didnt raise this one. A speeding up of the processes. It currently takes many months to process a permit for a meeting & i have heard of permits only being issued a week out from a meeting. It is apparently illegal for a meeting to be advertised until the permit has been issued. If that protocol had been followed, i know of at least 3 or 4 awesome meetings that wouldnt have gone ahead.

[FROSTY]

I for one would like to see coordination between the various bike clubs sorted out. To me its ludicrous that two clubs should hold meetings on the same weekend.
Also some clear division of funds Ie MX support comes from money raised from MX licences Money from road race licences goes to road race events. I know there will be an immediate reaction to that-being that when we applyfor our licences most of us go for an open licence letting us race road,mx or speedway if we choose. That might need some tightening up

[Grey Beard]

Careful what you are suggesting.
There are probably 400- 500 Road Races and 4000 - 5000 Off- Road races (MX- Enduro- etc).

[sidecar bob]

Careful what you are suggesting.
There are probably 400- 500 Road Races and 4000 - 5000 Off- Road races (MX- Enduro- etc).

My thoughts exactly.

[JimO]

i would ask them for xray glasses so i could see through girls clothes :2thumbsup

[boomer]

i would ask them for xray glasses so i could see through girls clothes :2thumbsup

i was thinking more along the lines of a 6ft Swedish blonde chick with perky boobs..??!! but i like your suggestion too !!! :2thumbsup

[Shaun]

$250-00 per week to run the Road Race dept for them!

[sidecar bob]

$250-00 per week to run the Road Race dept for them!

Best idea yet!!

[Shaun]

Best idea yet!!


I could only gauantee 20 hours per week for that though, and that is still BLOODY cheap!

[suzuki mama]

A clear accurate and total picture set of accounts from the Office at the AGM

Not saying theres anything underhand going on but in the format presented who would know?
An explaination as to why we need all these office staff or is it to satisfy the major membership sparc thinks we have

or maybe as a rider and mother of 3 other riders is there a point when all of us who belong to MNZ say Huntly there really is a problem and what is our duly elected Board doing except crisis management

As a rider i really fail to understand why so little is being done for riders and why so much money is being spent propping up an overstaffed and under acheiving office
Lets be honest here it doesnt matter how hard you work if your systems are inefficent.

So this family wants change at MNZ, I would ask MNZ What is the board going to do to improve the way the paid employees are alienating the Industry, the clubs and us the riders

[Grey Beard]

A clear accurate and total picture set of accounts from the Office at the AGM

Not saying theres anything underhand going on but in the format presented who would know?
An explaination as to why we need all these office staff or is it to satisfy the major membership sparc thinks we have

or maybe as a rider and mother of 3 other riders is there a point when all of us who belong to MNZ say Huntly there really is a problem and what is our duly elected Board doing except crisis management

As a rider i really fail to understand why so little is being done for riders and why so much money is being spent propping up an overstaffed and under acheiving office
Lets be honest here it doesnt matter how hard you work if your systems are
inefficent

So this family wants change at MNZ, I would ask MNZ What is the board going to do to improve the way the paid employees are alienating the Industry, the clubs and us the riders

Well Put, Suzuki Mama.

It appears the MNZ Office personal work hard but not smart.

Maybe Paul P should spend less time trying to do the different Commissioner's jobs and spend more time managing the Office, that way more could be achieved

[FROSTY]

Careful what you are suggesting.
There are probably 400- 500 Road Races and 4000 - 5000 Off- Road races (MX- Enduro- etc).
Im hearing you but say at 100 bucks a licence thats $50000 --the question is are we getting that value from MNZ?
Also how many of the enduro guys actually have licences?
Thats another question. How much money is coming in and wheres it going?

[Grey Beard]

Everybody riding Enduros must have a license, it is the guys just trail riding that don't contribute and probably cause the most concern with accidents etc.

I was told a story recently about a trail ride in the Central North Is, which had 1500 competitors but there were also 12 plus collarbones broken.

ACC would have been better off paying the Organisers $10K not to run the event.

Also most "Track Days" have someone carted off in an ambulance.

It is only a matter of time before "Big Brother" (i.e. ACC and the like) start clamping down and then where will we be.

Rising Hard on the roads, dicing with Asian drivers and "Cheesegraters"

Sorry one of my pet subjects:

Back on Thread:

Maybe we should be asking MNZ to look into this before it kicks us all in the arse

[Grey Beard]

Sorry Frosty, missed your main point.

$50,000 are we getting value?

Last year, through the good offices of the CEO and the Board, the Castrol Power 1 Superbike Championships got no direct funding apart from what was already budgeted for through Stewarding etc. Well that is how I understand it.

So the answers is probably NO.

The CEO seems happy to send our money travelling the country, but exactly what is being achieved is questionable.

In Fact does the President and the Board actually ask any questions of our highly paid and travelled EMPLOYEES?????

[scrivy]

In Fact does the President and the Board actually ask any questions of our highly paid and travelled EMPLOYEES?????

And there in lies the problem with MNZ. People may bitch about P.P., but the board are sitting on the sidelines, when they should be instrumental in providing a suitable outcome and direction.
If any other business had board members doing nothing, they would fail outright.

[FROSTY]

Also most "Track Days" have someone carted off in an ambulance.
It is only a matter of time before "Big Brother" (i.e. ACC and the like) start clamping down and then where will we be.
Sorry to quote you perhaps out of context here here mate (its a pet subject of mine) I've been to and run a fair few track days and for that matter open test days. On only ONE occasion was anyone actually taken away at a track day Ive been involved in personally. I think thats bloody good going concidering each event had about 100 attendees. Incidently (not in any way having a go at the person concerned) the chap that did damage himself was a Race rider using the track day as practice for an event coming up.
Im only aware of a total of 5 injury accidents at any track day in the past 5 years.
Im of the belief that anyone wanting to give racing a go should actually attend at least one propperly run track day before venturing out at a full on meeting.

Edit-for GB As a trackday organiser I run an incident log basicly listing all the things that went wrong during the day. just checked back and over last 7 rackdays we used the ambo a total of 6 times -4 of them precautionary only so rider rode back 1 was a minor concussion and one resulted in broken collar bone -again that person was a race rider

[Grey Beard]

No Frosty, you haven't taken it out of context.

Obviously, my source of Information is now questionable.

If there has only been 5 accidents in 5 years, that is far better than the National RR Champs.

I will ask my source to clarify their info.

However my Point still stands, Accident statistics is something MNZ could be looking into for us.

The info on their site is dated 2005

[Ivan]

my recent dealings with the board have not been good but Im going to open something up I normally keep out of these issues

But 5 months Ago Me, Steve Bron + Dennis Simmonson, and Vicky all broke New Zealand land speed records payed our money lodged our forms everything MNZ gaveus the all O.K saying everything was fine and we would be given our records. Still no word have rung them numerous times over the past 5 months been told its awaiting the board to meet to Radacate the Records.

In my opinion its sorry for language Fucken Bullshit we are being cocked around Im atwits end now I spent over 500 bucks that day alone to ride that event broke the records felt proud but am not satisfied that the records still havent been classified as "Official"

So my thing is I would ask MNZ to pull Finger out there arse and actually do what they are there to do.

[The Chow]

Well you know what nothing surprises me.

Anyway lets bring on some change in direction , the President and Board need to bring the paid employees in to line. The office is famous for delays.

Remember to vote for change in leadership Vote JT for president in the upcoming elections.

Change may even see the situation we find our selves at the moment regarding road racing improve. We need change now!

Speakin to Paul Stewart today , (and remember he is still commissioner until the end of may) , and he said he has had very positive comments about the proposed class changes.(see MNZ website) Shows you a guy who is still giving 100% even though he won't be the commissioner after May. Can we afford to loose such a person?:argh:

[FROSTY]

Incidently I would like to see a clear second step for the young racers that guys like oyster,billy and Aj turbo are training up though the 150ss series.
Theres an old phrase in selling --it says lets "Feed the funnel"
In essence we start with 1000 riders and by the end we might have 50 world classers.
After 150ss theres no clear next step for them to progress to

[scott411]

I would ask for the major race series (the mx nat series and the RR nats series) to have seperate organisers(or even better promotors), i mean not leave it to the comissioners, i do think the job is that important to run those series well that it should not be combined with other jobs

[steveyb]

Incidently I would like to see a clear second step for the young racers that guys like oyster,billy and Aj turbo are training up though the 150ss series.
Theres an old phrase in selling --it says lets "Feed the funnel"
In essence we start with 1000 riders and by the end we might have 50 world classers.
After 150ss theres no clear next step for them to progress to

www.motoacademy.co.nz

[Kevin G]

www.motoacademy.co.nz

125 GP is the next logical progression from street stock. This is a class where you can hone the racecraft skills learnt in streetstock and also learn about chassis set up. This class has produced some of the best (closest) racing of the last few seasons, bikes are cheap (in comparison) and plentiful.

[Ivan]

125 GP is the next logical progression from street stock. This is a class where you can hone the racecraft skills learnt in streetstock and also learn about chassis set up. This class has produced some of the best (closest) racing of the last few seasons, bikes are cheap (in comparison) and plentiful.

I agree 125 really helped me in my step up from 150's into something I mean the power issue slightly richen it up at first for a few rides and then start going leaner i found helped me out to learn the bike.
And really helped me to my progession to SV650 in pro twins alot of riding skills could be brought over from 125 racing.

[suzuki mama]

Has any one received their voting papers yet . last year they were so late as to almost make the whole thing farcical and we were told it wouldnt happen again .!
checking with other club members around both islands and they havnt got anything either
delighted to hear the board are working on a charter convienently just before the AGM, ANY ONE ABLE TO COMMENT IF THEIR CLUB HAS BEEN INVOLVED WITH THIS ,OR IS THIS JUST ANOTHER SNOW JOB GIVE US THE WARM FUZZIES AT agm and make us think they have been working on it all along

[quallman1234]

Incidently I would like to see a clear second step for the young racers that guys like oyster,billy and Aj turbo are training up though the 150ss series.
Theres an old phrase in selling --it says lets "Feed the funnel"
In essence we start with 1000 riders and by the end we might have 50 world classers.
After 150ss theres no clear next step for them to progress to

Maybe your not really aware of it but 125GP is the next clear step, from 150ss, thats exactly where the really quick 150 riders last year and the year before have gone. Its after 125's it gets a bit confusing imo.

F3 isn't much faster, almost downgrading, due to the fact your jumping on communter bikes instead of GP bikes.
F2/F1 is far too expensive atm, for younger riders with no support/even with support. Hopefully things will change with the new rules proposed.

[Ivan]

Maybe your not really aware of it but 125GP is the next clear step, from 150ss, thats exactly where the really quick 150 riders last year and the year before have gone. Its after 125's it gets a bit confusing imo.

F3 isn't much faster, almost downgrading, due to the fact your jumping on communter bikes instead of GP bikes.
F2/F1 is far too expensive atm, for younger riders with no support/even with support. Hopefully things will change with the new rules proposed.

but shit the Formula 3 bikes with a nice suspension system the bikes handle really well and go really well.

f1/f2 are still commuterbikes really to at the endof the day ecause they were once road bikes and have lights etc removed,

I argue tho that saying F3 is Downgrading depends how much you want to put into your bike same as 125's really

[GSVR]

http://www.mnz.co.nz/ceo_newsletter_pp_18.aspx

After reading this newletter I don't think I have to ask as they are already onto it.

I don't subsribe to the belief if your not doing around 1.02 around Puke on a 600 your not on the pace shouldn't be there competing at the nationals.

http://www.mylaps.com/results/showrun.jsp?id=1055735


1 88 Sam Smith 15 15:02.941 59.451 12 172.034
2 G Gareth Jones 15 15:02.955 0.014 59.080 15 173.114
3 1 Dennis Charlett 15 15:05.221 2.280 59.420 6 172.124
4 2 James Smith 15 15:12.251 9.310 1:00.108 5 170.154
5 23 Karl Morgan 15 15:14.095 11.154 1:00.057 13 170.298
6 6 Nick Cole 15 15:15.370 12.429 1:00.184 3 169.939
7 65 Adam Chambers 15 15:24.458 21.517 1:00.474 13 169.124
8 94 Dave Manuell 15 15:24.628 21.687 1:00.979 15 167.723
9 16 Jeremy Holmes 15 15:26.183 23.242 1:00.891 14 167.966
10 28 Brian Wood 15 15:45.832 42.891 1:01.383 6 166.619
11 165 Jamie Rajek 15 15:45.961 43.020 1:01.523 14 166.240
12 712 Shane Tunnicliffe 15 16:03.602 1:00.661 1:03.196 12 161.839
13 808 Marcus Beagley 14 15:06.322 1 Lap 1:03.744 7 160.448
14 158 Phil Endean 14 15:12.108 5.786 1:03.596 13 160.821
15 80 Phil Snowdon 14 15:33.170 26.848 1:05.645 12 155.802
16 79 Greg Percival 14 15:33.359 27.037 1:05.906 5 155.185
17 95 Gah Chan 13 15:06.455 2 Laps 1:07.961 5 150.492
Not classified (65% = 10 Laps)
DNS 515 Jamie Galway 0 --:--:--.--- --:--:--.--- 0 -

Bets on how ling before the suspension supplier or one of his brownnosed followers jumps on here and quotes me. Am I really that interesting that you have to quote every post I make?

[Tony.OK]

Bets on how ling before the suspension supplier or one of his brownnosed followers jumps on here and quotes me. Am I really that interesting that you have to quote every post I make?

"How to win friends and influence people"............................simply come onto KB and call several of NZ's competitive Nationals riders Brown nosers!



:doh:

[Pussy]

I'm not going to quote you, Gary.... but I'd like some insight as to what the hell is eating you?

This question is without malice

[GSVR]

I'm not going to quote you, Gary.... but I'd like some insight as to what the hell is eating you?

This question is without malice

Should I give Robert an opportunity to go back and retract his posts before sending this off?


Hi Paul Pavletich,

Just want to give you a heads up as to whats happening on the Kiwibiker site. I believe there is a campaign operating to silence any posters who support your veiws or don't support Mr Robert Taylors veiws concerning the current proposals. It would be a shame if the current proposals were not dabated fairly and the best outcome for all riders and concerned partys was reached.

Kiwibiker has long been a platform for Mr Taylor to vent his politcal veiws and campigning, as well as promote and advertise his bussiness interests. Now he is using it to publicly undermine you the CEO and MNZ with his posting.

Examples taken directly off very recent posts by Mr Taylor.

"So how well is a shock that is valved to ride the bumps at Pukekohe going to perform at tire shredding Teretonga? Dont say you can just adjust to compensate with the clickers because the response range is not the magic cure all that many mistakenly think it is. This ruling proposal confirms beyond all doubt how little those that draft ( or rather request ) such proposals actually know and will only draw support from the least experienced or those that havent had the benefit of same. This has the CEOs smell all over it."

"Demonstrably certain people within that organisation have no respect for democratic process and common etiquette."

"While you are so freely delighting in using the word ''cheating'' pause to think how the powers that be have effectively cheated us out of an excellent road race commissioner."

"Well, PP needs to approach SOMEONE that abundantly understands chassis / suspension and tyre dynamics because its clear by the proposed ruling that there is VERY LITTLE understanding."

"Yep, and I can tell you for free that MX people are not very happy with the current dictatorship."

"The Labour party, a refuge for queers."


A high proportion of roadracers frequent the site. Some as visitors others as posters. I have noticed prominant figures in the motorcycle world use it as a very good forum for getting ideas and feedback or promoting events, etc. But I consider the use of it for political purposes to be not right.

Regards Garry Hosking.
I'm not MNZ member but am a motorcycle enthusist like yourself.


Perhaps Kiwibiker should start a forum for current MNZ license holders only?

Thanks Pussy it does actually feel good talk about this!

[Kickaha]

Should I give Robert an opportunity to go back and retract his posts before sending this off?
Hi Paul Pavletich,

Just want to give you a heads up as to whats happening on the Kiwibiker site. I believe there is a campaign operating to silence any posters who support your veiws or don't support Mr Robert Taylors veiws concerning the current proposals.

What evidence do you have to support that veiw?

Did you ever think that maybe rather than a "campaign operating to silence any posters who support your veiws or don't support Mr Robert Taylors veiws concerning the current proposals" that maybe that the majority of people support Robert and agree with what he says?

[cowpoos]

Should I give Robert an opportunity to go back and retract his posts before sending this off?


Hi Paul Pavletich,

Just want to give you a heads up as to whats happening on the Kiwibiker site. I believe there is a campaign operating to silence any posters who support your veiws or don't support Mr Robert Taylors veiws concerning the current proposals. It would be a shame if the current proposals were not dabated fairly and the best outcome for all riders and concerned partys was reached.

Kiwibiker has long been a platform for Mr Taylor to vent his politcal veiws and campigning, as well as promote and advertise his bussiness interests. Now he is using it to publicly undermine you the CEO and MNZ with his posting.

Examples taken directly off very recent posts by Mr Taylor.

"So how well is a shock that is valved to ride the bumps at Pukekohe going to perform at tire shredding Teretonga? Dont say you can just adjust to compensate with the clickers because the response range is not the magic cure all that many mistakenly think it is. This ruling proposal confirms beyond all doubt how little those that draft ( or rather request ) such proposals actually know and will only draw support from the least experienced or those that havent had the benefit of same. This has the CEOs smell all over it."

"Demonstrably certain people within that organisation have no respect for democratic process and common etiquette."

"While you are so freely delighting in using the word ''cheating'' pause to think how the powers that be have effectively cheated us out of an excellent road race commissioner."

"Well, PP needs to approach SOMEONE that abundantly understands chassis / suspension and tyre dynamics because its clear by the proposed ruling that there is VERY LITTLE understanding."

"Yep, and I can tell you for free that MX people are not very happy with the current dictatorship."

"The Labour party, a refuge for queers."


A high proportion of roadracers frequent the site. Some as visitors others as posters. I have noticed prominant figures in the motorcycle world use it as a very good forum for getting ideas and feedback or promoting events, etc. But I consider the use of it for political purposes to be not right.

Regards Garry Hosking.
I'm not MNZ member but am a motorcycle enthusist like yourself.


Perhaps Kiwibiker should start a forum for current MNZ license holders only?

So you have a personal issue with Robert Taylor....is that it?

[Tony.OK]

Seriously man.................WTF?

You've stated that you are not an MNZ member............does that mean you are not a racer? Or intend to be?

You've omitted the many posts from others that race or are in the field of racing that have shared RT's views.
Coming here and looking like a 'tell tale' child because someones views are not shared by you is frankly just plain weird.

I understood some of your questioning but now its just gotten pathetic.
Ignore list for you sorry........................:wavey:

[Robert Taylor]

Heck Im scared!!!Nothing that Paul doesnt already know and Im more than happy to repeat. Im sure he is big enough to take the heat that is coming his way from better people than me.
Funny thing, could still ( albeit briefly )pass the time of day at the MX on the weekend, despite the fact his actions if fully implemented would effectively shaft many aftermarket suppliers and their viability to employ, and that if myself and a whole army got our way hed be ejected from his job.
And seeing as politics were mentioned any motel that sends away Trevor Mallard is a top place I want to stay!!
Ill spare GSVR too much further embarrassment beyond the real drubbing he recieved from several on another thread last night. ''Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned'' ( or suchlike )
But away from small minded pettiness....( including me )
As far as injecting some positive action into road racing Shaun Harris and Peter Fenton have got it right, appoint a fulltime promoter and raise levies to cover it ( or divert otherwise wasteful spending ) And Ive said it before those who are pulling the strings had best repair their relationship with the industry otherwise there will be no industry support. That cannot be allowed to happen.

[Ivan]

Im shocked no pun intended I cant see a point to the pretty straight forward lookings that there is a personal attack on Robert goign on?

Is it really that bad that someone as good as Robert actually gives out free advice on the forums and is only stating what he knows as he does it for a job?

Over seas from whatI have read you would pay to hear information we recieve?

Its really confusing and no posts on KB are going to change my mind Keep it up Robert.

[Wingnut]

I'm not MNZ member but am a motorcycle enthusist like yourself.


Quite an opinion for someone which the actual issues have no direct affect upon. I assumed you actually competed in the 600s. Classic!!!

:laugh:

[suzuki mama]

Robert Taylor ,keep it up ,last time i looked i wasnt part of any grand scheme to run down MNZand the CEO THAT I WAS AWARE OF
IM SIMPLY A RIDER EXPRESSING MY OPINIONS!
I have noted that if you say anything mildly critical of both sooner or later a personal attack will be launched against you.
So fire away because im not afraid to stand up and be counted.Paul P has totally alienated the Industry,lost the road race commisioner ,lost the best team road racing ever has, lost the best media deal in order to employ his mate ,keeps increasing the office staff to what end? interferes in the running of other commisions to the extent commissioners have felt intimidated ,ripped off the industry with his poxy motorcycle show,which incidently only made money because of what Industry charged to attend,and if it was so outstanding a success as we are led to believe why wasnt it run againand has more clubs and riders questioning why they should belong to MNZ THAN EVER BEFORE.
Robert Taylor is a buisnessman with a great love for the sport he lives in the real world.
paul p is a liability ,the president is a liability for allowing this situation to happen Time for a change

[brads]

Hi gary hosking,
Firstly let me introduce myself,Im BROWNNOSE SUPPORTER NUMBER 4.
why do I support Mr Taylor,because unlike you he has our sports best interests at heart,if he has a concern over suspension you would have to be a muppet like yourself not to listen and make changes.
Your continuous bleating about Mr Taylor only being in it for Financial gain is fucking bollocks and well over used.
We have all heard about some major cock ups out of MNZ,Things need to change,SIMPLE.
As for your post dated 22/4/09 at 19.18pm,and heres me thinking that its only kids that go running off to tell on people,GROW UP!!
Brad Selfe
MNZ member.

[budda]

Hi gary hosking,
Firstly let me introduce myself,Im BROWNNOSE SUPPORTER NUMBER 4.
why do I support Mr Taylor,because unlike you he has our sports best interests at heart,if he has a concern over suspension you would have to be a muppet like yourself not to listen and make changes.
Your continuous bleating about Mr Taylor only being in it for Financial gain is fucking bollocks and well over used.
We have all heard about some major cock ups out of MNZ,Things need to change,SIMPLE.
As for your post dated 22/4/09 at 19.18pm,and heres me thinking that its only kids that go running off to tell on people,GROW UP!!
Brad Selfe
MNZ member.

Well SAID Brattley ..... BJT666 FOR PRESIDENT

[slowpoke]

http://www.mnz.co.nz/ceo_newsletter_pp_18.aspx

After reading this newletter I don't think I have to ask as they are already onto it.

I don't subsribe to the belief if your not doing around 1.02 around Puke on a 600 your not on the pace shouldn't be there competing at the nationals.

http://www.mylaps.com/results/showrun.jsp?id=1055735


1 88 Sam Smith 15 15:02.941 59.451 12 172.034
2 G Gareth Jones 15 15:02.955 0.014 59.080 15 173.114
3 1 Dennis Charlett 15 15:05.221 2.280 59.420 6 172.124
4 2 James Smith 15 15:12.251 9.310 1:00.108 5 170.154
5 23 Karl Morgan 15 15:14.095 11.154 1:00.057 13 170.298
6 6 Nick Cole 15 15:15.370 12.429 1:00.184 3 169.939
7 65 Adam Chambers 15 15:24.458 21.517 1:00.474 13 169.124
8 94 Dave Manuell 15 15:24.628 21.687 1:00.979 15 167.723
9 16 Jeremy Holmes 15 15:26.183 23.242 1:00.891 14 167.966
10 28 Brian Wood 15 15:45.832 42.891 1:01.383 6 166.619
11 165 Jamie Rajek 15 15:45.961 43.020 1:01.523 14 166.240
12 712 Shane Tunnicliffe 15 16:03.602 1:00.661 1:03.196 12 161.839
13 808 Marcus Beagley 14 15:06.322 1 Lap 1:03.744 7 160.448
14 158 Phil Endean 14 15:12.108 5.786 1:03.596 13 160.821
15 80 Phil Snowdon 14 15:33.170 26.848 1:05.645 12 155.802
16 79 Greg Percival 14 15:33.359 27.037 1:05.906 5 155.185
17 95 Gah Chan 13 15:06.455 2 Laps 1:07.961 5 150.492
Not classified (65% = 10 Laps)
DNS 515 Jamie Galway 0 --:--:--.--- --:--:--.--- 0 -

Bets on how ling before the suspension supplier or one of his brownnosed followers jumps on here and quotes me. Am I really that interesting that you have to quote every post I make?

Ok, so what you are saying is you want to be able to post without your post being discussed? No one is allowed to quote you? Forget this discussion forum fella, go fire up a blog somewhere so you can spruik to your hearts content without fear of contradiction.

I'm fucked if I know what your problem is with RT but given that he has received inumerable totally unprompted testimonials from road riders and racers of every calibre and your supporters are conspiculously absent the words "tall poppy" spring to mind. Thanks for your continued efforts to undermine one of the very few world class resources we have in NZ, on behalf of all racers we really appreciate it it.....NOT! Your efforts do nothing but cause aggravation to many whilst distracting from genuine discussion.

Forgetting RT for the moment and getting back to your linked newsletter, my own limited experience tells me that improved aftermarket suspension, just like tyre warmers, will pay for itself very quickly in tyre savings alone. That's right, the short term financial pain gives a long term financial gain, meaning racing is cheaper in the long run. They aren't "luxuries", or "bling", or "unnecessary", they are genuine cost saving options. I don't know this because I've been told it, or read it in a magazine, I know it because I experienced it. I'm a fairly inexperienced late starter at this mug's game and for me to know this but not have our hierarchy comprehend the same basic tenet is quite frankly scary and indicative of how far out of touch they are. Of course if you have had experience to the contrary then I'd like to hear about it.

You can keep Paul Pav and co, GSVR. He may still be quick for the odd lap or three but with that one newsletter he has shown me he doesn't know dick about racing modern bikes on modern tyres or how to engage related industry's. And how does he explain the bulging Club grids where MNZ has little influence versus the paucity of riders at the MNZ co-ordinated National level? Or how does he explain that someone is willing to ride a 600 or F3/Pro-Twin bike in 2 classes (doubling their running costs), at a club event but is unwilling to race one class at their local National event? When was the last time he attended a Vic Club event? It can't have been any time recently because the difference between it and a National round couldn't be more striking. Duck and weave, head in sand, arse covering, however you put it, he's laying the blame anywhere but where it should be.

[Shaun]

http://www.mnz.co.nz/ceo_newsletter_pp_18.aspx

After reading this newletter I don't think I have to ask as they are already onto it.

I don't subsribe to the belief if your not doing around 1.02 around Puke on a 600 your not on the pace shouldn't be there competing at the nationals.

http://www.mylaps.com/results/showrun.jsp?id=1055735


1 88 Sam Smith 15 15:02.941 59.451 12 172.034
2 G Gareth Jones 15 15:02.955 0.014 59.080 15 173.114
3 1 Dennis Charlett 15 15:05.221 2.280 59.420 6 172.124
4 2 James Smith 15 15:12.251 9.310 1:00.108 5 170.154
5 23 Karl Morgan 15 15:14.095 11.154 1:00.057 13 170.298
6 6 Nick Cole 15 15:15.370 12.429 1:00.184 3 169.939
7 65 Adam Chambers 15 15:24.458 21.517 1:00.474 13 169.124
8 94 Dave Manuell 15 15:24.628 21.687 1:00.979 15 167.723
9 16 Jeremy Holmes 15 15:26.183 23.242 1:00.891 14 167.966
10 28 Brian Wood 15 15:45.832 42.891 1:01.383 6 166.619
11 165 Jamie Rajek 15 15:45.961 43.020 1:01.523 14 166.240
12 712 Shane Tunnicliffe 15 16:03.602 1:00.661 1:03.196 12 161.839
13 808 Marcus Beagley 14 15:06.322 1 Lap 1:03.744 7 160.448
14 158 Phil Endean 14 15:12.108 5.786 1:03.596 13 160.821
15 80 Phil Snowdon 14 15:33.170 26.848 1:05.645 12 155.802
16 79 Greg Percival 14 15:33.359 27.037 1:05.906 5 155.185
17 95 Gah Chan 13 15:06.455 2 Laps 1:07.961 5 150.492
Not classified (65% = 10 Laps)
DNS 515 Jamie Galway 0 --:--:--.--- --:--:--.--- 0 -

Bets on how ling before the suspension supplier or one of his brownnosed followers jumps on here and quotes me. Am I really that interesting that you have to quote every post I make?




I might just get asked to leave the site again, but you realy are a dick Gary!

I have worked with you directly before remember, and I know exactaully how you act and what type of person yu are, GO away bro.:yawn:

[eelracing]

Good on ya Gary keep it up mate.But you are flogging a dead horse with this lot.But in the interest of open debate you got balls for injecting some much needed counter arguement to this issue.

As i understand it MNZ is proposing a "Privateers Class" and the reason for this is to grow the sport by keeping costs to a minimum and to encourage youth back into the fold.

You superbike and supersport riders still get to keep your class...so whats the problem?Take a look around you at the Nats,there aint many of ya.

Step out of your little world and look at the big picture and lets get this sport back where it belongs by encouraging more participation by making it more affordable.

And yes i am loosely quoting MNZ CEO Paul Pavs newsletter in the latest Motorcycle Trader.I don't know the man personally but i do agree with his remarks regarding roadracings future.I suggest if you have a problem with what he's trying to achieve then put your hand up and put yourself forward for the job.

[GSVR]

I might just get asked to leave the site again, but you realy are a dick Gary!

I have worked with you directly before remember, and I know exactaully how you act and what type of person yu are, GO away bro.:yawn:

So this was a bad idea? Or is it only bad when MNZ suggests it?

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=83753 Post 16 people

Originally Posted by Shaun
Fork Springs and oil Change only in the front end!
Rear spring for rider weight
All using the same brand Shock- As they come direct from the Factory STD!

Another point I raised twice in this thread to our resident suspension guru (and it was ignored) was what happens in an endurance event when two riders of different weight share the same bike? Do they revalve or swap shocks at rider changeovers?

I have never worked with you directly sorry Shaun I was a customer once when I brought a GSXR complete front end off you years ago.

When did you get asked to leave the site thats news to me?

Only reason I can see for experienced fast riders to be against this is they want the rules to suit them so its easier to burgle the class. They should really just keep racing as they have done and (hopefully) look forward to lots of new blood coming into the class at national level.

[Robert Taylor]

Good on ya Gary keep it up mate.But you are flogging a dead horse with this lot.But in the interest of open debate you got balls for injecting some much needed counter arguement to this issue.

As i understand it MNZ is proposing a "Privateers Class" and the reason for this is to grow the sport by keeping costs to a minimum and to encourage youth back into the fold.

You superbike and supersport riders still get to keep your class...so whats the problem?Take a look around you at the Nats,there aint many of ya.

Step out of your little world and look at the big picture and lets get this sport back where it belongs by encouraging more participation by making it more affordable.

And yes i am loosely quoting MNZ CEO Paul Pavs newsletter in the latest Motorcycle Trader.I don't know the man personally but i do agree with his remarks regarding roadracings future.I suggest if you have a problem with what he's trying to achieve then put your hand up and put yourself forward for the job.

So therefore you are completely ignoring the sound technical reasons that have been put forward rationalising why allowing spring changes only to rear shocks doesnt cure squat / pitch control issues.....

But dont listen to me, we only get to sort out such issues on a daily basis.

No-one is arguing about sound reasons for reducing costs!

This thread has also been a real study in how people can kick their toys out of the cot, very shameful.

[steveyb]

IMHO there is actually only a very limited return to be gained by focussing efforts to 'bring youth back into the sport' or however it might have been written, in the Supersport and Superbike areas of the sport.
These classes are not, and should not be where the youth and new riders are.
Don't get me wrong, the Privateers Cup is a good idea, virtually everyone else in the world has an equivalent, but in the end, it still only converts the converted into converts.

If we are really, and I mean really, interested in generating new interest and attracting new cohorts of riders and racers into roadracing then we must look towards the MX model.

The provision of youth only classes where young riders ride against only other young riders on suitable machines and from where they 'graduate' into bigger bikes and senior classes is the only real way in which new people will join our sport in any real and sustainable way.

There is a real perception in the MX paddock (and this is from Tony Rees who is intimately bound to both sides) that Roadracing is too dangerous for little Johnny or Jeanie. Part of this perception is real when they might be thrust into a race with experienced adults. But part of this perception is unfounded when we look at the injury ratios. So we must overcome this. If the sport can attract just 5-10% of the junior MX riders (or anyone else for that matter) who are just 'a bit over it' each year, then we will grow sustainably.

Yes of course people will come and go from the bigger bike classes, but only in small numbers and in a totally unsustainable way. Indeed, much of the reason that they will come and then go again is precisely because they did not start at the beginning, but jumped in halfway along, on an SS600 or SBK bike and it either hurt them or their wallets too much.

The model is already playing out in the South Is with the Motorcycling Canterbury youth initiative. VMCC/Moto Academy NZ and other interested parties (e.g. Maarty VB (is that Victoria Bitter??) Billy) are attempting to emulate this jointly and separatly in the lower North Is.

We do have the Bucket racing scene, but at present the transfer over seems only limited and some riders do get 'stuck' (for want of a better word) there.

Another part of the puzzle that is sorely missing is the provision of machines and infrastructures to riders who have the cash, but lack the remainder of the support that it takes to run bikes. I really think that most of the people posting here are a bit older and have totally forgotten how daunting it must look to a 15-18 yr old who is not from a racing family to get into the sport. He/she is dying to give a whirl but they don't have a bike, leathers, car, tools, trailer, spare parts, knowledge etc etc etc. But they have saved up some money or can get it from Mum and Dad and have the time, the energy and the enthusiasm to really learn something.

I plead with you older guys again, scale back your own racing, buy one or two 125GP bikes, Streetstock bikes or Pro-Twin bikes and find young riders from Buckets or Streetstock or your own neighbourhoods who can give you $5k or so over a year and run them on the bikes.

It is extremely rewarding, way less risky than racing (afterall you are the breadwinner now), and is the primary way we will grow the sport.

I also think that we still hold onto the anachronistic arguement that says "I had to do it the hard way, so you/they can too, bugger them".

To that I say, Valentino Rossi and Casey Stoner, and in another breath, "FFS get over it".

Thanks for listening (well, reading), again.

Steve

[Robert Taylor]

So this was a bad idea? Or is it only bad when MNZ suggests it?

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=83753 Post 16 people

Originally Posted by Shaun
Fork Springs and oil Change only in the front end!
Rear spring for rider weight
All using the same brand Shock- As they come direct from the Factory STD!

Another point I raised twice in this thread to our resident suspension guru (and it was ignored) was what happens in an endurance event when two riders of different weight share the same bike? Do they revalve or swap shocks at rider changeovers?

I have never worked with you directly sorry Shaun I was a customer once when I brought a GSXR complete front end off you years ago.

When did you get asked to leave the site thats news to me?

Only reason I can see for experienced fast riders to be against this is they want the rules to suit them so its easier to burgle the class. They should really just keep racing as they have done and (hopefully) look forward to lots of new blood coming into the class at national level.

This is getting totally pathetic, its easy to understand that Shaun was neither agreeing or disagreeing with the technical whys and wherefores. I am guessing that he may not agree with some of my content and if so we can agree to disagree gracefully. A lesson can be learnt from that.
Some of your questions are not worth answering because frankly you have a habit of twisting things, that is one reason why so may people are peeved with you. Demonstrably.
He was referring to the demeanour of your posts and actions.

[oyster]

Steve
100% right, nearly every word written. Does that make two of us in the whole of NZ? Come the rest of ya, do you agree or not. That the chances of a NZ producing future interbnational racers lies with youth development, and THAT ALONE. The days of 17 year old Aaron Slights rocking up to a club meeting for their first Road Race experience and progressing on to world fame are long gone.
If you don't believe that, get your head out of the sand and look at countries that are successful, and in our own country, with ANY sport you wish to name and it all begins with structured youth development.

Steve, you'll be pleased to know it's school holidays so we're out training 11 to 14 year olds tomorrow at Ruapuna, the "new take" of about 10 so far this year.
We're just setting the dates for the FOURTH running of the Sportzfotoz Cup. The only Junior age/experience restricted road racing series over 9 races/3 circuits in NZ.

[Robert Taylor]

Steve
100% right, nearly every word written. Does that make two of us in the whole of NZ? Come the rest of ya, do you agree or not. That the chances of a NZ producing future interbnational racers lies with youth development, and THAT ALONE. The days of 17 year old Aaron Slights rocking up to a club meeting for their first Road Race experience and progressing on to world fame are long gone.
If you don't believe that, get your head out of the sand and look at countries that are successful, and in our own country, with ANY sport you wish to name and it all begins with structured youth development.

Steve, you'll be pleased to know it's school holidays so we're out training 11 to 14 year olds tomorrow at Ruapuna, the "new take" of about 10 so far this year.
We're just setting the dates for the FOURTH running of the Sportzfotoz Cup. The only Junior age/experience restricted road racing series over 9 races/3 circuits in NZ.

Absolutely 100% agree, a great post by Steve, makes sense.

[suzuki mama]

Well SAID Brattley ..... BJT666 FOR PRESIDENT

Jim Tuckerman gets my vote ,you may not always agree with him but he gets the job done, hes been involved in many sports saw his name on a jetsprint programme on Sky recently,always on radio giving accurate race day accounts unlike some who cant tell diffrence between white and chequred flags, i hear hes not a member of the pp fan club ,saw on another website hes posting why hes standing tonight.
Has an excellent relationship with the Industry im told and Sponsors .
one things for sure the sport would run on a more cohesive structure if he was around,:rockon:

[Maarty]

IMHO there is actually only a very limited return to be gained by focussing efforts to 'bring youth back into the sport' or however it might have been written, in the Supersport and Superbike areas of the sport.
These classes are not, and should not be where the youth and new riders are.
Don't get me wrong, the Privateers Cup is a good idea, virtually everyone else in the world has an equivalent, but in the end, it still only converts the converted into converts.

If we are really, and I mean really, interested in generating new interest and attracting new cohorts of riders and racers into roadracing then we must look towards the MX model.

The provision of youth only classes where young riders ride against only other young riders on suitable machines and from where they 'graduate' into bigger bikes and senior classes is the only real way in which new people will join our sport in any real and sustainable way.

There is a real perception in the MX paddock (and this is from Tony Rees who is intimately bound to both sides) that Roadracing is too dangerous for little Johnny or Jeanie. Part of this perception is real when they might be thrust into a race with experienced adults. But part of this perception is unfounded when we look at the injury ratios. So we must overcome this. If the sport can attract just 5-10% of the junior MX riders (or anyone else for that matter) who are just 'a bit over it' each year, then we will grow sustainably.

Yes of course people will come and go from the bigger bike classes, but only in small numbers and in a totally unsustainable way. Indeed, much of the reason that they will come and then go again is precisely because they did not start at the beginning, but jumped in halfway along, on an SS600 or SBK bike and it either hurt them or their wallets too much.

The model is already playing out in the South Is with the Motorcycling Canterbury youth initiative. VMCC/Moto Academy NZ and other interested parties (e.g. Billy) are attempting to emulate this jointly and separatly in the lower North Is.

We do have the Bucket racing scene, but at present the transfer over is only limited and some riders simply get 'stuck' (for want of a better word) there.

Another part of the puzzle that is sorely missing is the provision of machines and infrastructures to riders who have the cash, but lack the remainder of the support that it takes to run bikes. I really think that most of the people posting here are a bit older and have totally forgotten how daunting it must look to a 15-18 yr old who is not from a racing family to get into the sport. He/she is dying to give a whirl but they don't have a bike, leathers, car, tools, trailer, spare parts, knowledge etc etc etc. But they have saved up some money or can get it from Mum and Dad and have the time, the energy and the enthusiasm to really learn something.

I plead with you older guys again, scale back your own racing, buy one or two 125GP bikes, Streetstock bikes or Pro-Twin bikes and find young riders from Buckets or Streetstock or your own neighbourhoods who can give you $5k or so over a year and run them on the bikes.

It is extremely rewarding, way less risky than racing (afterall you are the breadwinner now), and is the primary way we will grow the sport.

I also think that we still hold onto the anachronistic arguement that says "I had to do it the hard way, so you/they can too, bugger them".

To that I say, Valentino Rossi and Casey Stoner, and in another breath, "FFS get over it".

Thanks for listening (well, reading), again.

Steve
Thats a good idea Steve!, I might just try that!

[steveyb]

Thats a good idea Steve!, I might just try that!

Nah, it'll never take!! :yes:

[Maarty]

Nah, it'll never take!! :yes:

Ya reckon!

Watch this space buddy, I think you may just be on to something there stevey boy, now, where can I find a boy to ride my TZ138 and another to ride my TZ 130?

[steveyb]

I guess in the main part the one thing I am keenest on seeing is the creation of more race teams and more development teams that take on young riders and offer them all the infrastructure for the exchange of currency.

I think actually that the need for youth development programmes is self evident and that if the people in the sport don't see that, then the sport is doomed and no effort will save it.

The performance based teams (Bernard, Triple R, Honda, etc) are fantastic, but they are that, Performance based and as such aimed at the leading riders, or the nearly leading riders who with a good team become leading riders.

In fact we had the perfect example of this over the past two years with Jimmy Smith from Chch. It is again self evident and stated himself, that without the team structure and environment he would have had to walk away from the sport and we and he would never have gotten to see what he could really do.

But what if Jimmy had been able to start out in a team like that? Would we have seen him become as good as he has gotten 5, 10 years earlier? I believe so.

I reiterate, put yourself in Joes shoes when 14 yr old Johnny or Jeannie says he/she wants to have a go at being Casey Stoner (even though that should not be encouraged as Stoner is actually not a very nice person, someone that should not be emulated. That is direct from the horses mouth, from two people I know who have spent time with him) but Joe has no idea about bikes or anything. But Joe has $10k he is willing to spend over a year or two or more. Where does he go? Who does he see?

If there were teams into which he could buy a seat that advertised the fact in local media then he would know straight away and we would be able to capture Joe, Joe Mum (cos now she sees that Johnny is being tutored and is riding an appropriate bike against similar riders) and Johnny, who might just be another Rossi, you just never know.

In Chch it is easy(ish). In the NI it still takes insider knowledge of some kind. And the default will be to go to the MX track and do that instead, cos Johnny can race against Jeannie and all the other 14yr olds.

So we need to break into that cycle.

As we see from Pete, they are gearing up their full youth programme for the 4th year. Maybe in the NI we can start climbing the ladder to the same place this year?

The only point of any substance on which Pete and I disagree, is the length of time spent by riders on Streetstock bikes in the SI programme. But I fully recognise the financial and resource contraints that slow riders going to 125GP (and of course they are not right for every rider). So we gracefully agree to disagree on that one and just get on with it.

Moto Academy NZ and VMCC are actively trying to get some resources in place for 2009, but it is not an easy or rapid process, so y'all will just have to watch this space.

Thanks for reading..... again.

Steve

[Robert Taylor]

Jim Tuckerman gets my vote ,you may not always agree with him but he gets the job done, hes been involved in many sports saw his name on a jetsprint programme on Sky recently,always on radio giving accurate race day accounts unlike some who cant tell diffrence between white and chequred flags, i hear hes not a member of the pp fan club ,saw on another website hes posting why hes standing tonight.
Has an excellent relationship with the Industry im told and Sponsors .
one things for sure the sport would run on a more cohesive structure if he was around,:rockon:

100% SPOT ON. He would for starters pull the reins in on the CEO and remind him in no uncertain terms that there is a broken relationship to rebuild with the industry and many members alike. It may already be too late for the CEO to rekindle any trust that many may have previously had in him.
Yes, Jim does indeed get on well with the industry and riders alike. It would be a bumpy ride for a start but a puppet he most certainly wouldnt be.
It is VERY important that MNZ members are not apathetic, every vote counts.

[steveyb]

Ya reckon!

Watch this space buddy, I think you may just be on to something there stevey boy, now, where can I find a boy to ride my TZ138 and another to ride my TZ 130?

138 and 130???
Damn, and here I was telling everyone that it was the turbo and NOx making them go so fast.
Shows what the $#@%* I know.:bash:

[Robert Taylor]

Im going to pander to an indignant remark about not answering questions even though to most the answer is bleeding obvious;

ENDURANCE RACING RIDER STATS DISPARITY

1)If the team manger had the luxury of choice he would prefer to choose riders that are fast, keep it on the road and are as close as possible in height and weight, also riding style. Therefore ( and all respect to these guys ) you are hardly likely to see Sam Love and Sloan Frost teamed up.

2) There obviously is going to have to be a setting compromise not only in chassis / suspension but footpegs / handlebars / seat pads etc. Both riders have to be happy with the compromise and that also has to be balanced out how its going to impact on tyre degradation / wear etc.

Solo riders wont have the same constraints so they can hone their settings more for best possible laptime. thats what its about isnt it?

Doubtless there are more reasons. Ho flipping hum...

[slowpoke]

Good on ya Gary keep it up mate.But you are flogging a dead horse with this lot.But in the interest of open debate you got balls for injecting some much needed counter arguement to this issue.

Yup, I'm happy to consider counter arguments from knowledgeable people who understand the ins and outs of racing and modify my views accordingly. But, given that some incredibly well credentialled racers and mechanical types have blown holes in most of his theories and attacks it's hardly suprising the "horse" is headed for the glue factory.

As I understand it MNZ is proposing a "Privateers Class" and the reason for this is to grow the sport by keeping costs to a minimum and to encourage youth back into the fold.

As I understand it MNZ were not the ones to propose this class so you shouldn't be laying the credit at their feet. Mores the pity, they should have been far more proactive in recognising the growing problems in our sport and we'd all be a bit happier with their performance.

You superbike and supersport riders still get to keep your class...so whats the problem?Take a look around you at the Nats,there aint many of ya.

The "problem" is that Superbike riders are second class citizens when it comes to track time, hence the small Superbike numbers. They get half the action nearly all other classes receive thanks to our cross entry rules. Consider the cost of a basic R1 racer vs the cost of a basic R6 racer then look at that cost spread over the number of laps you get in a couple of seasons it's hardly suprising most people opt for the R6. How is Naked Bike or a Privateer Cup addressing this?

Step out of your little world and look at the big picture and lets get this sport back where it belongs by encouraging more participation by making it more affordable.

Take your own advice and look at more than the issue of affordability. As above, you can make Superbikes as cheap as you like but without equivalent track time people are still going to avoid them like the plague.

Go to a Vic Club meeting and you'll see there is absolutely no problem with participation levels (apart from genuine Superbikes), with oversubscribed grids.....at club level. Most riders race two classes so how do you explain the so called problem of "affordability" if they are prepared to double their running costs? Seriously, explain that to me.

Contrast the above club events with the the obvious problems at the Nationals level. Given that cheap racing is already available in the Nationals class with Pro Twins and the grids are still small the problem would NOT appear to be strictly cost based but something to do with the way MNZ is running the Nationals series and promoting (tui ad) our sport in general.

One off street meets are chockers with entries, Scrivy's one off Taupo Spectacular is truly spectacular, yet MNZ have alienated riders to the point where they won't even turn up for a one off appearance at their local Nats round. Everything points to an MNZ problem, it's more than just about making it as cheap as possible.

And yes i am loosely quoting MNZ CEO Paul Pavs newsletter in the latest Motorcycle Trader.I don't know the man personally but i do agree with his remarks regarding roadracings future.I suggest if you have a problem with what he's trying to achieve then put your hand up and put yourself forward for the job.

It's about more than just agreeing with one person's "vision". Do they have a credible plan to actually create it? Are they capable of carrying out that plan? Will they engage other people and the M/C industry in general to grow the vision or will they alienate people as they go? Are they flexible or rigid in their thinking? Will they accept constructive criticism to improve the plan? How have they performed previously?

Personally I'm not seeing too many favourable responses when applying these questions to current MNZ management.

[slowpoke]

So, what would I ask MNZ for?

1: Fix the cross entry rules such that all riders get a fair return on their investment

2: Have MNZ management publicise their attendance at a series of club meetings to experience the grass roots climate and concerns.

3: Start their own discussion/information forum on the MNZ website, with no monikers or false names to hide behind.

4: Liase with Oz Organisers to give the winner (or first Kiwi home, eh Robbie?) and first privateer home in Supersport/Superbike classes entries into the Oz MotoGP or WSBK support races. It's not that expensive to ship a bike and a bit of gear over the ditch. Give the people something to actually race for and get excited about rather than just the overdraft they have accumulated.

[eelracing]

So therefore you are completely ignoring the sound technical reasons that have been put forward rationalising why allowing spring changes only to rear shocks doesnt cure squat / pitch control issues...


Not ignoring but just don't think it relevant to a true production series that pits riders against each other on identical bikes they can buy off of the shop floor or even 3 or 4 years old bikes.It may even encourage clubmens and F3 riders who don't wanna spend 20 + grand to be competitive in F3 (altho i do like the idea of the 3 cylinder gixxer).

At the end of the day the "squat/pitch control issues" are going to be a factor for all so he/she who has/learns the better race craft is gonna be the best coz they are the best.Not because he/she has the biggest cheque book.

And maybe then (here's the kicker)they might have the confidence and the backing to step up to the supersport class.Which is got to be good for you and the sport in the long run.

[eelracing]

So therefore you are completely ignoring the sound technical reasons that have been put forward rationalising why allowing spring changes only to rear shocks doesnt cure squat / pitch control issues...


Not ignoring but just don't think it relevant to a true production series that pits riders against each other on identical bikes they can buy off of the shop floor or even 3 or 4 years old bikes.It may even encourage clubmens and F3 riders who don't wanna spend 20 + grand to be competitive in F3 (altho i do like the idea of the 3 cylinder gixxer).

At the end of the day the "squat/pitch control issues" are going to be a factor for all so he/she who has/learns the better race craft is gonna be the best coz they are the best.Not because he/she has the biggest cheque book.

And maybe then (here's the kicker)they might have the confidence and the backing to step up to the supersport class.Which is got to be good for you and the sport in the long run.

[quallman1234]

but shit the Formula 3 bikes with a nice suspension system the bikes handle really well and go really well.

f1/f2 are still commuterbikes really to at the endof the day ecause they were once road bikes and have lights etc removed,

I argue tho that saying F3 is Downgrading depends how much you want to put into your bike same as 125's really

125 > Protwin is pretty much the same, except sloppy chassis etc. I just don't like it.
125 > F3 could be a different story, but buggering round with bikes, aint really what up and comers should be doing. Ofc, you don't always have to bugger round with bikes in F3.

Just my oppion.

[slowpoke]

....... he/she who has/learns the better race craft is gonna be the best coz they are the best.Not because he/she has the biggest cheque book.


More likely they just weigh 65kg's and no-one else is allowed to tune the suspension for their weight. If you aren't a jockey you might as well not turn up.

[Robert Taylor]

Not ignoring but just don't think it relevant to a true production series that pits riders against each other on identical bikes they can buy off of the shop floor or even 3 or 4 years old bikes.It may even encourage clubmens and F3 riders who don't wanna spend 20 + grand to be competitive in F3 (altho i do like the idea of the 3 cylinder gixxer).

At the end of the day the "squat/pitch control issues" are going to be a factor for all so he/she who has/learns the better race craft is gonna be the best coz they are the best.Not because he/she has the biggest cheque book.

And maybe then (here's the kicker)they might have the confidence and the backing to step up to the supersport class.Which is got to be good for you and the sport in the long run.

So going on from there its irrelevant that those well known pitch / squat control issues are the major contibutor in destroying tyres quickly, EXTREMELY quickly at circuits like Teretonga. ???????????????????
Heck, we get ordinary everyday track day riders coming to us all the time seeking solutions to their squat / understeer and tyre issues.
Bear in mind that that 3 clinder Gixxer has a $4500 rear Indy car shock in it, are you going to vilify Chris for ''chequebook racing''?
There are certain technical issues ( such as recalibration of damping ) that just have to be addressed, thereby actually saving the cost of changing tyres too readily, but alas just like the head in the sand at the top there are none so blind as those that cannot see.

[FROSTY]

Steveyb and Oyster. You guys are out there actually DOING it. So from that point of view its hard to argue with you. Guess Im waay down there kinda lighting a tiny little flame of interest that you guys fan into a decent fire in their bellys.
But Guys I'm not sure 125 gp is the next step.
Im not saying NO ITS NOT Im just not convinced. Mainly because of the one size doesn't fit all issue with a 125.

[Shorty_925]

Wouldnt motards be a great entry to getting kids into road racing? I know it isnt 'proper' road racing, but more of a future with bikes around than what buckets are, and less cost if little johnny throws a race bike down the road. And if they dont like it, they can always sell the wheels and go back to mx. People seem to like them and the classes pull large feilds at street races.

[steveyb]

Steveyb and Oyster. You guys are out there actually DOING it. So from that point of view its hard to argue with you. Guess Im waay down there kinda lighting a tiny little flame of interest that you guys fan into a decent fire in their bellys.
But Guys I'm not sure 125 gp is the next step.
Im not saying NO ITS NOT Im just not convinced. Mainly because of the one size doesn't fit all issue with a 125.

No, you are right they are not for everyone.
But almost anyone can actually ride one and ride one fast.
Clearly to be champion there is an optimal size range.
But hey, I can still punt one around in some sort of not totally embarassing manner at 90kg dry!
I recall Owen Wilson (OB) at over 6' tall going really fast on an old RS125, and the new ones are a bit bigger.

But if we are discussing youth development and we are thinking about riders who want to be champions, then if they are not the appropriate size for the sport then how can they ever be champions. In the end there just has to be horses for courses. Would we consider putting a jockey in the front row of a scrum? Would we consider putting a front rower in a basketball team? No, so champion road racers will fit within a narrow range of sizes also. And don't throw Choppa and Stroudy at me. Stroudy is slim and lean and wasn't always as tall as he is now. Choppa is fast, but isn't a roadrace champ yet. Compare all the other SS600 and SBK riders and you will see that they are all quite similar is stature.

So in NZ to cater for riders who perhaps can't or do not want to race 125 we recently created Pro-Twin.

You know, in every country in the world that has any current currency in roadracing, the premier class for youth and racer development is 125GP (with the new 250 4 stroke bikes slowly taking their place). Have a good look around: Italy, France, Spain, Japan, USA, UK, Australia, Germany, Hungary, Czech. They all have very strong and competitive 125GP racing.

Countries that aspire to the top levels such as; New Zealand, Canada, South Africa, etc do not have really strong 125GP racing but persist with 600 and 650 roadbikes.

But, I will defer to the great Kiwi 'we know better and will do it our own way' school of thought.

Enjoy

[fossil]

No Frosty, you haven't taken it out of context.

Obviously, my source of Information is now questionable.

If there has only been 5 accidents in 5 years, that is far better than the National RR Champs.

I will ask my source to clarify their info.

However my Point still stands, Accident statistics is something MNZ could be looking into for us.

The info on their site is dated 2005

The figures are available direct from the following link. They relate to all sports.

Of particular note is that of motorcycling, I have asked ACC and they confirm that these figures only relate to non road accident/injury claims @ $7.22m.

Trail biking and motocross are further down the page and classed separately @ $8.17m

http://www.acc.co.nz/about-acc/statistics/acc-injury-statistics-2008/20-sport-claims/IS0800367

[Robert Taylor]

125 is a totally unPC class it discriminates against against overweight people and taking into account NZ is at the beginning of an obestity problem I can't see it catering for the new generation of obess kids.

Enjoy

Sorry Steve hope you understand this is just a piss take.

Now for something serious:

I always knew people had to have some serious issues to ride a Motard and now Ive found out what they are. "Pitch and Squat"

We definately don't want any "Pitching and Squating" going on in Supersport either. Next thing riders will want to be able to put their leg out.

Twister you are at it again, not content to take your shame gracefully you continue to act like a sad little man.
Frankly I care no longer if I get nailed for this....of course motards are going to pitch and squat because theres lots more travel to account for it you moron. You need to seek help for your permanent chip on your shoulder, big time.
For the record I dont mind Motards and if its a way of getting more people to cross over from MX then its all good. They have an interesting set of dynamics going on, especially compensating for trail figures that are not ideal for road race, and pro squat going on in the rear if they are lowered lots.

[GSVR]

Twister you are at it again, not content to take your shame gracefully you continue to act like a sad little man.
Frankly I care no longer if I get nailed for this....of course motards are going to pitch and squat because theres lots more travel to account for it you moron. You need to seek help for your permanent chip on your shoulder, big time.
For the record I dont mind Motards and if its a way of getting more people to cross over from MX then its all good. They have an interesting set of dynamics going on, especially compensating for trail figures that are not ideal for road race, and pro squat going on in the rear if they are lowered lots.

2008 Aprilia 550 SXV Rake angle: 25.2° Trail: 104 mm.
SV650 Rake 24.8 degrees Trail 100mm
GSX600 Katana Rake 24 degrees Trail 96mm
K9GSXR1000 Rake 23.8 Trail 98.3mm
2008 KTM Superduke R Rake 22.7 Trail 94mm
2007 KTM 660 SMC Rake 27.0 Trail 99mm

Whats that about trail figures? Whats a good set of rake and trail figures for a 600 racebike? I know how to measure it but its not something I've seen people measuring at the track!

[cs363]

Twister you are at it again, not content to take your shame gracefully you continue to act like a sad little man.
Frankly I care no longer if I get nailed for this....of course motards are going to pitch and squat because theres lots more travel to account for it you moron. You need to seek help for your permanent chip on your shoulder, big time.
For the record I dont mind Motards and if its a way of getting more people to cross over from MX then its all good. They have an interesting set of dynamics going on, especially compensating for trail figures that are not ideal for road race, and pro squat going on in the rear if they are lowered lots.


I don't mind Motards but I don't think they should be racing as road race bikes, I'd love to see more (some?) proper Motard tracks set up - the one they have at X Games is absolutely awesome!

I'm not sure what the problem is between GSVR and you, as most of your arguments seem very sound - is there more to this than meets the eye? Everything you suggest is black it seems he comes out and says it absolutely, categorically white...
He's not some failed suspension tuner that you've put out of business or something is he? Maybe the previous Ohlins importer perhaps??
C'mon....spill....


:corn:

[Robert Taylor]

2008 Aprilia 550 SXV Rake angle: 25.2° Trail: 104 mm.
SV650 Rake 24.8 degrees Trail 100mm
GSX600 Katana Rake 24 degrees Trail 96mm
K9GSXR1000 Rake 23.8 Trail 98.3mm
2008 KTM Superduke R Rake 22.7 Trail 94mm
2007 KTM 660 SMC Rake 27.0 Trail 99mm

Whats that about trail figures? Whats a good set of rake and trail figures for a 600 racebike? I know how to measure it but its not something I've seen people measuring at the track!

You would have learnt those figures had you been invited to the Peter Goddard seminars we ran. But a) I didnt think youd be prepared to pay for such a seminar because I very much get the vibe that EVERYTHING should be cheap, and b ) I didnt wish to see the pain on Peters face.
As it was we had a great bunch of peole at all the seminars, I even invited the CEO of MNZ who although a polar opposite was very cordial.
Someone else might like to elaborate on those figures.

[cowpoos]

Someone else might like to elaborate on those figures.

I'll make it a lil easy...but use copy paste :)

Rake and trail are terms often used when discussing sportbike handling. Manufacturers sometimes highly tout these numbers in their brochures, and we often refer to them in testing. Trail especially affects how a bike feels, and can determine its stability, steering quickness, and in general, a large portion of the bike's handling characteristics.

Rake is the angle of the steering head with respect to a vertical axis. Trail is the horizontal distance from the front axle to where a line drawn through the steering axis meets the ground.

Trail can be calculated from triple-clamp offset (0), tire radius (R) and rake (ø). Changing any of these three variables will alter trail, but each also has other-and sometimes unfavorable-effects.


Rake is defined as the angle of the steering head with respect to a line drawn perpendicular to the ground . A smaller angle, or less rake, is sometimes referred to as being steeper, and production sportbikes are currently in the neighborhood of 23 degrees of rake.

Trail is the horizontal measurement from the front axle to the point at which a line drawn through the steering head intersects the ground . Current sportbikes have 90-95mm of trail.

While the two dimensions are interrelated, trail is the number that mostly changes the steering feel of a motorcycle. Trail gives a motorcycle stability because of the self-centering effect caused by the front wheel being behind (or trailing) the steering axis. Too little trail, and this self-centering effect is decreased to the point of instability. Too much trail, and the effect is so great that steering becomes heavy. There is a lot more to trail than this (and for more detail, you can refer to the resources listed here), but these are the basics for the purposes of this discussion.

At first glance, most sportbikes appear to have a set rake and trail that cannot be changed, but that is not necessarily the case. Given a motorcycle's basic dimensions, we can calculate trail as follows

(equation 1)
Trail=RSinø-0/cosø
R=tire radius
0=triple-clamp offset
ø=rake


Raising or lowering the front end of your motorcycle puts more or less weight on the front end. However, the handling change due solely to the change in weight bias is negligible.

As an example, a bike with a front tire having a circumference of 1890mm, a 23-degree rake and 27mm of offset will have 98.5mm of trail. Note that in the range of variables we are dealing with, using a tire with a smaller radius, increasing offset or decreasing rake can decrease trail. On most stock sportbikes, you cannot change two of the three variables (tire diameter and offset) without resorting to modifications, but the third variable, rake, we can change slightly by raising or lowering the fork tubes in the triple clamps.

An expert-level roadracer can notice a change in the order of 1mm in trail, and working equation 1 backward, we can calculate the change in rake required as just less than 0.2 degrees. Using an approximation based on the arc length from the rear axle to the steering head, we can further calculate that a fork-height change of just 4mm is enough to effect this angle change.


You can measure rake angle by using an inclinometer, available at hardware stores.





Many riders refer to fork height or rear-ride height change as "putting more (or less) weight on the front end," but we can calculate the change in weight bias brought about by this 4mm change.

A typical sportbike and rider combination weighing 600 pounds has approximately a 50/50 weight bias, with its center of gravity (CG) at a height 1_2 of its 1400mm wheelbase (figure 3). Front-end weight is calculated as:

Wf=Wt(L-x)/L
Wf=front-end weight
Wt=total weight
x=distance from front axle to CG
L=wheelbase

Offset is the perpendicular distance from the steering axis to a line drawn between the two fork tube centers.

In this case, the bike's weight is evenly distributed, with 300 pounds on each wheel. Raising the fork tubes in the triple clamp and changing rake by 0.2 degrees will move the CG forward by approximately 3.5mm (you can use trigonometry to calculate this), resulting in a front-end weight of 301.5 pounds. This is practically insignificant compared to the change in trail resulting from the adjustment-you would have far more of an effect on weight bias by simply moving your body a little bit forward.

Raising or lowering the front end of your bike changes much more than just rake and trail, however. It also changes the angle of the swingarm, which can play a big part in handling, especially on more powerful bikes. We will cover more rear-end geometry in a later issue, but you should know that adjustments in trail are by far the most apparent change a rider will feel when raising/lowering the bike's front end.

Adjustable triple clamps allow you to vary offset in increments. This is the preferred method for changing trail, as it affects other handling variables the least.

Tire diameter is one of the other variables affecting geometry, and we can calculate the change in trail resulting in a switch between two brands of tires. In our last tire test ("DOT Race Tire Test," Feb. '03), the tallest front tire was the Michelin Pilot Race 2, at 1910mm in circumference. The smallest tire was the Metzeler Racetec/Pirelli Supercorsa, at 1878mm. We always measure tire circumference and change ride heights to make the overall chassis attitude (and rake) the same , and in this case, the fork tube height would need to be changed by 5mm just to level the chassis.

Even taking that into account, however, the change in trail due only to the change in tire size is 2mm. Add in the different tire's profile (that changes trail at various lean angles), and you can see why adjusting only to keep the bike's attitude the same when changing tire brands is sometimes not enough.

The last way we can adjust trail is by changing the triple-clamp offset, and you will see that racebikes often have this adjustment. In this case, a 1mm change makes approximately the same change in trail (but opposite-more offset gives less trail, and vice versa) with very little effect on ride height and rake angle.

Resources

Motorcycle Handling and Chassis Design: The Art and Science
Tony Foale
www.tonyfoale.com

The Racing Motorcycle: A Technical Guide For Constructors
John Bradley
www.eurospares.com

[FROSTY]

No, you are right they are not for everyone.
But almost anyone can actually ride one and ride one fast.
You know, in every country in the world that has any current currency in roadracing, the premier class for youth and racer development is 125GP .
What does a mid pack 125 cost to buy and what does it cost to run for a season?
Please dont take this as negative guys I don't know and I DO want to know. (er actually mr 13 wants to know)

[GSVR]

What does a mid pack 125 cost to buy and what does it cost to run for a season?
Please dont take this as negative guys I don't know and I DO want to know. (er actually mr 13 wants to know)

Did you see the bikes GP Honda where going to import. Brand spanking 125GP bikes. I talked to a a 125 rider about this and he told me that you can get really good bikes second hand from Austrailia that come with heaps of performance parts. Apparenlty its very competitive over there and people are upgradeing often so the secondhand maket is a buyers market.

Can anyone here confirm this?

[Billy]

Did you see the bikes GP Honda where going to import. Brand spanking 125GP bikes. I talked to a a 125 rider about this and he told me that you can get really good bikes second hand from Austrailia that come with heaps of performance parts. Apparenlty its very competitive over there and people are upgradeing often so the secondhand maket is a buyers market.

Can anyone here confirm this?

I can confirm GP Honda were not importing these bikes,they were available to anybody through Blue Wing and were part of a cancelled order.To the best of my knowlege they were sold through another dealer

[Billy]

What does a mid pack 125 cost to buy and what does it cost to run for a season?
Please dont take this as negative guys I don't know and I DO want to know. (er actually mr 13 wants to know)

Er trying to run before walking can only end 1 way Frosty.Im sure thats not the advice Peter Jones would have given you

[FROSTY]

Er trying to run before walking can only end 1 way Frosty.Im sure thats not the advice Peter Jones would have given you
No billy me ol chinwa. no way I wanna do that -slowly gently catchee monkey me
Kinda thinking it would be fun in a couple of years if the old fulla (me) and the young fulla (him) were racing in the same class. Im still 72kg so i might fit a 125 and be able to roundee round slowly on it.

[Kevin G]

What does a mid pack 125 cost to buy and what does it cost to run for a season?
Please dont take this as negative guys I don't know and I DO want to know. (er actually mr 13 wants to know)

A good bike might cost $8,000 ish and for that you would have a bike pretty much capable of winning in the right hands.
For a learning year you can use 2nd hand tyres and probably allow $ 500 a round and your done. This is the budget end of the class but a bike capable of winning. Like anything you can spend whatever you like,depends on the depth of the pockets. The budget this year to win the championship was $1100 per round excluding travel and accomodation etc.
With this we have good used parts (pistons) and tyres to burn up in the off season.
If you want to talk about it call me on 021379030.
Kevin Goddard

[FROSTY]

Thanks Kevin. --couple of years away yet mate
but compared to anything else but an old 400 F3 bike is bloody cheap racing. AND unlike anything cept buckets you could probably put the bike on the back of a family sedan saving travel expenses

[oyster]

Best advice to young Mr 13. Tell mum and dad to book a heap of cheap fares to the South Island for Streetstock. Motorcycling Canterbury will support him with a bike, $15 membership, $15 entries training, tons of tracktime (some events 7 times on the track), school holiday coaching etc etc etc.....
Heaps (about 30) of his PEERS to race, have fun with and learn from.
And a true junior championship, the Sportzfotoz Cup.
If he needs support to show this is good economic sense compared to the NI scene, talk to young Alex from Ngatea who did just this last year. As a family, they have no regrets.
Once Streetstock is mastered, then and only then consider a 125GP My boy was 13 when he got on a 125, but he had 38 logbook entries, all roadracing!!! And once he got underway on a 125, he went quite well, but we realised he only had the BARE MINIMUM skill/experience to do justice to the outstanding capabilites of a true GP bike. These cost a lot to run, and it doesn't make sense to use an expensive platform like this to just learn how to ride a bike. As I've described, this money is better spent travelling and maximising racing time/experience

[FROSTY]

OYSTER--Have I told you how much I HATE you :Pokey::Pokey:
You couldnt hide that post couldya ??
now I got a 13 year old hassling me
But that aside could ya please e mail me the dates concerned so mr 13 can look for flights n stuff.
By the way I need your address to send that parcel to.
Head n barrel n powervalve etc.