What's this I spy?

[Maido]

Just browsing MNZ and found this.....


1. Sports Production Classes
501cc – 600cc 4-stroke 4 cylinders maximum
601cc – 675cc 4-stroke 3 cylinders maximum (including 750V twins)
a Number Plate Colours
The background colours and figures for Sports Production
501 - 600 601-675 (incl 750 twins) yellow background and black numbers
PRIVATEERS Cup. Yellow back ground red numbers.
In case of a dispute concerning the legibility of numbers, the decision of the
Technical Steward will be final

3-2a Privateers Cup. Front Forks
The following are the only changes allowed in this class category
Any quality and quantity of oil can be used in the front forks.
Front fork springs and spacers may be fitted.
The height and position of the front fork in relation to the fork crowns is free.
Steering damper may be added or replaced with an after-market damper.

3-4a Privateers Cup. Rear Suspension Unit.
The following is the only change allowed
Rear spring.

3-6a Privateers Cup.
The following are the only changes allowed.
Brake pads

3-14a Privateers Cup. Air box / Air cleaner assembly, as described in the parts book.
No Changes or modifications are allowed ALL items must remain standard.

3-16a Privateers Cup
Fuel Injection System
An after market fuel tuning device may be fitted,

3-18a Privateers Cup.
Cylinder head gasket, Standard OEM gasket must be used.

Privateer Cup
Countershaft sprocket and rear wheel sprockets may be changed for gearing
purpose but to remain standard sprocket width and standard pitch chain must
remain.

3-23a Privateers Cup
The undercutting of the gearbox drive dogs or machining of gears is optional..

3-25a Privateers Cup.
Ignition/Engine Control System.
Spark plugs may be replaced. Igniter unit (Blackbox) must be standard OEM for
that Homologated year model

3-26a Privateers Cup.
Standard headers must remain standard for that year homologated model,
Muffler may be replaced with stainless or Alloy product only.

3-31a Privateers Cup.
The fitment of a Traction Control unit is not permitted unless fitted as standard OEM
manufacture for that year model homologated by MNZ.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
EDIT: should hav put a linky http://www.motorcyclingnz.co.nz/download/Sports_Production_Regulations_Appendix_A_updated_8-4-09600cc%20%20for%20MNZ%20web%20site.pdf

Also, please note that this is in the PROPOSED rules, it isn't official yet.
I am guessing you can choose which class you enter in, I guess it is kinda what Red was talking about, good ideas IMO =P

[Tony.OK]

Crickey...................only F2 though aye.

Wouldn't it be nice if MNZ would get into modern day and do mass emails for any announcements.

Well spotted;)

[Shaun P]

Its weird they dont appear to allow valving changes, the concept is good for an entry class though.

[johnsv650]

great idea, but why not say rear shock open ?
a 600 with standard shock tyres wont last 15 laps.......

[lostinflyz]

first sensible thing ive seen in a while. its basically superstock 600 rules.

most club/track day guys get a couple of meets outta a supercorsa on stock stuff. if your really burning up a tyre spend 2 grand and go supersport racing. i like it. theres the choice to be cheap or go hard out.

only thing i dont like is having to use stock brake lines but hey if you want braided go up.

[k14]

Thats wierd, you can add a power commander (by the looks) but not able to change the rear shock??

[Robert Taylor]

Its weird they dont appear to allow valving changes, the concept is good for an entry class though.

Indeed, springs are about position, DAMPING IS ABOUT CONTROLLING RATE OF CHANGE OF POSITION. These rule proposals show a lack of understanding on that count. For example if I was a 75kg rider on a GSXR600 or R6 Id be noticing straight away that theres an acceleartion squat issue off especially the tightest turns. An uninformed approach would say ''fit a firmer spring'' When in fact for the same $300 that the spring would cost you a few simple internal valving tricks would in fact yield a much better result. FACT. Plus the bike will ride bumps better because it wont be oversprung.
AND, how are they going to police it?

[cs363]

Indeed, springs are about position, DAMPING IS ABOUT CONTROLLING RATE OF CHANGE OF POSITION. These rule proposals show a lack of understanding on that count. For example if I was a 75kg rider on a GSXR600 or R6 Id be noticing straight away that theres an acceleartion squat issue off especially the tightest turns. An uninformed approach would say ''fit a firmer spring'' When in fact for the same $300 that the spring would cost you a few simple internal valving tricks would in fact yield a much better result. FACT. Plus the bike will ride bumps better because it wont be oversprung.
AND, how are they going to police it?

Obviously PP will be approaching you to act as Chief Technical Inspector (Suspension)...... :rofl:

[Teambwr47]

The privateers thing looks to be more of a clubmans type thing running in the main race but still a good idea if encourages more entries i guess.

A true privateer class would be all running the same rules.

I will most certainly run in the main class but part of the rules intrigues me...

Firstly you can change the 'black box'

3-25 Ignition/Engine Control System.
Spark plugs may be replaced.
Igniter control modules may be replaced unit (Blackbox)

This would allow kit ignition.

But then the cheaper part of 'kitting' the bike, the wiring loom to go with kit ignition would seem to be not allowed?

3-16 Wiring Harness.
The standard main wiring harness(s) must remain intact. The only wiring that may
be removed from the motorcycle is the wiring between a component that may be
legally removed and its closest connector. Any electrical component removed must
be able to be reconnected to its original connecter and function normally.
A wiring jack/ harness may be fitted to accommodate an aftermarket fuel tuning
device.

As I'm happy to spend my cash or that of some sponsors in the main class seem strange to allow the kit ecu then ban the cheaper wiring loom to make it function correctly??

[Maido]

As I said in my first post (after edit) these are PROPOSED rules, not concrete rules,

It also says: Please put forward constructive comments with reasons on the following (submit to vicky@mnz.co.nz); your comments will then be forwarded to the Road Race Commissioner Paul Stewart


MNZ have a rule change proceedure which can be found on PDF here:

http://www.mnz.co.nz/download/Competition_Rule_Change_Policy.pdf


Read the proposed rules (there are some for speed attempts and superbike also), and put your constructive comments to the above address.
We know here on this forum FOR A FACT that we are all talk (face it, its true!) so instead of wasting your internet ink here, email your thoughts to MNZ! I have!

[Teambwr47]

Maido,

Missed the 'proposed' bit in your first post mate, I'll be sending my comments regarding the Sport Production 600 main class to MNZ.

[Teambwr47]

first sensible thing ive seen in a while. its basically superstock 600 rules.

most club/track day guys get a couple of meets outta a supercorsa on stock stuff. if your really burning up a tyre spend 2 grand and go supersport racing. i like it. theres the choice to be cheap or go hard out.

only thing i dont like is having to use stock brake lines but hey if you want braided go up.

With respect the Superstock rules are generally accepted to be what the FIM class as Superstock as do ACU in the UK and the proposed privateer rules would be more like some 'Streetstock' classes.

Equally we don't have a 'Supersport' class in NZ as the National 600cc class is effectively more of a Superstock 600 class if you view it in the context of the FIM rules.

[Robert Taylor]

Obviously PP will be approaching you to act as Chief Technical Inspector (Suspension)...... :rofl:

Well, PP needs to approach SOMEONE that abundantly understands chassis / suspension and tyre dynamics because its clear by the proposed ruling that there is VERY LITTLE understanding. What I said previously wasnt neccessarily about spending more money. Consider the following;

1) If you are burning up tyres very often the solution is revalving to achieve better dynamic damping control. Springs will not always fix the problem and it is very very easy to overspring. AND HOW MANY RACERS ARE GOING TO BE PREPARED TO HAVE 2 OR 3 OPTIONAL SPRINGS TO HAND?

2) Crown Kiwi is the major spring supplier in NZ for motorcycle options. I can categorically state that spring options are readily available for the late model 600 / 750 and 1000cc sportsbikes. But we dont stock too many of these because it seems more people will buy a shock. Spring options for ( for example ) naked bikes and other models such as commuter bikes are patchy to non existent. AT NO TIME has anyone from MNZ consulted us about the readily availability of springs, youd think there would be some due diligence on that count.

3) High quality aftermarket shocks such as the product we sell are just not taken straight out of the box and bolted onto a racebike because the internal settings are calibrated for the road! We change the internal settings according to the racing application, rider weight and skill level and type of tyres / brand used. Engine power output is also a big factor in determining valving spec and spring rate. Of course, stock sportsbike shocks have internal damping calibration for road use...........

This is not a sport for cowboys, unfortunately that is how some of the band aid solutions make it look.

[sinfull]

3-25a Privateers Cup.
Ignition/Engine Control System.
Spark plugs may be replaced. Igniter unit (Blackbox) must be standard OEM for
that Homologated year model

P


Firstly you can change the 'black box'

3-25 Ignition/Engine Control System.
Spark plugs may be replaced.
Igniter control modules may be replaced unit (Blackbox)

This would allow kit ignition.



Guess i best go read it for myself !

[Ozzy27]

.
AND, how are they going to police it?[/QUOTE]

This is always going to be the problem. History has shown that MNZ are piss poor at enforcement of there own rules and as most of the people who are capable of doing this job are directly involved or dont want to be involved any more there will be an even bigger gap between the haves and have nots as it will no longer be as simple as going to Joe (or DR) Bloggs and buying the parts to have the same as eveyone else. You now have to have knowledge and skill to modify parts without being blatant and rest assured you wont be caught unless MNZ is willing to provide money to pay for a skilled person to inspect these bikes. MNZ has shown that money and road racing don't go together from their side.
Also the loss of Paul Stewart is Very Bad for Elite roadracing In NZ

[sinfull]

Well apart from the back shock thing, i like it ! It's gonna level up the field a bit !
A few ppl will be pissed they have to change their headers back to OEM too i guess ! (pleased they added them PROPOSED rules before i got the new bike)

[Robert Taylor]

.
AND, how are they going to police it?

This is always going to be the problem. History has shown that MNZ are piss poor at enforcement of there own rules and as most of the people who are capable of doing this job are directly involved or dont want to be involved any more there will be an even bigger gap between the haves and have nots as it will no longer be as simple as going to Joe (or DR) Bloggs and buying the parts to have the same as eveyone else. You now have to have knowledge and skill to modify parts without being blatant and rest assured you wont be caught unless MNZ is willing to provide money to pay for a skilled person to inspect these bikes. MNZ has shown that money and road racing don't go together from their side.
Also the loss of Paul Stewart is Very Bad for Elite roadracing In NZ[/QUOTE]

Yep! And there are certain shock mods that could be so well disguised that you could only pick it up on a shock dyno. Everyone has got one of those in their workshop!
There is a real danger when rules are decided by amateurs.

[Maido]

Teambwr47, that wasn't aimed at your post, it probably looked that way but it was a general comment so please don't think I was being a cock! haha!

These are all good ideas, that everyone needs to email MNZ on!

Robert, history says that MNZ do not consult you as the leading suspension techy in the country. In my email I will be sure to mention this.

As with Chris's suggestion about stronger (or some at all!) scrutineering.

I myself, as with Teambwr47, will still probably run in the normal class as I enjoy building engines and tuning the bikes I ride myself. I do believe that the bikes should be the same spec in both classes, this too is voiced in my email!

[GSVR]

Personally I can't understand the mentally of cheats as its a bit of a hollow victory.

The way Ozzy and Robert are talking its like its going to be a given that people will cheat and modify their shock. Well will you be making any illegal mods to std gsxr shocks Robert? People could just as easily cheat in other areas too.

Good sportsmen don't cheat so is our sport full of poor sportsmen who have no issue with cheating at every opportunity?

[lostinflyz]

With respect the Superstock rules are generally accepted to be what the FIM class as Superstock as do ACU in the UK and the proposed privateer rules would be more like some 'Streetstock' classes.

Equally we don't have a 'Supersport' class in NZ as the National 600cc class is effectively more of a Superstock 600 class if you view it in the context of the FIM rules.

ay you be right. i mearly refered to the two as supersport and superstock as a way of differentiation. call it 'full on' 600 and privateer or whatever.

while i understand all the arguments i find this to be the first attempt at making a real base class for racing. Its simple bikes, with simple rules. Theres no real mod's or anything else. The way the rules are it encourages more people to try racing and step eventually up to the proper class, join in nationals and feel that can be on a competitive bike at a price people without sponsorship can afford. and i reckon the rules encourage people to move up to 'full on' 600 racing.

And no matter what you do someone will push (break) the rules. its like blood and drug doping in sport. if you want to win and arent you'll do what your happy to get away with. and no matter how hard you try your always chasing your tail,wondering what no trick someones up to.

[Tony.OK]

The SBK rules are closer to 600 it would seem.
No race cams
Stock harness.................which eliminates a race ecu on some brands

Interesting..............

[Robert Taylor]

Personally I can't understand the mentally of cheats as its a bit of a hollow victory.

The way Ozzy and Robert are talking its like its going to be a given that people will cheat and modify their shock. Well will you be making any illegal mods to std gsxr shocks Robert? People could just as easily cheat in other areas too.

Good sportsmen don't cheat so is our sport full of poor sportsmen who have no issue with cheating at every opportunity?


I am making representation to MNZ that competitors should at least be allowed to revalve the shock whilst still retaining the stock piston. That is sensible and I think the reasons I will be putting forward are certainly not hollow.To do nothing would be cheating sensibility.
A very heavy guy that would need a substanial increase in spring rate to achieve the correct sag ratios would end up with a shock with so much spring force that it would overcome the rebound damping in the shock, calibrated to match a much lighter spring. If this wasnt allowable then we would disadvantage that rider.
Given that the shocks are now servicable ( unlike the sealed up pogosicks 30 odd years ago ) it creates a nightmare re enforcement.
While you are so freely delighting in using the word ''cheating'' pause to think how the powers that be have effectively cheated us out of an excellent road race commissioner.

[cs363]

Personally I can't understand the mentally of cheats as its a bit of a hollow victory.

The way Ozzy and Robert are talking its like its going to be a given that people will cheat and modify their shock. Well will you be making any illegal mods to std gsxr shocks Robert? People could just as easily cheat in other areas too.

Good sportsmen don't cheat so is our sport full of poor sportsmen who have no issue with cheating at every opportunity?


Don't be so naive, life is full of poor sportsmen who have no issue with cheating at every opportunity!

Granted, not all will cheat given the opportunity but enough surely will and that is enough to guarantee an unfair series, especially in light of MNZ's history of poor technical scrutineering.

[johnsv650]

maybe theres a new technical inspector for south island planned, maybe a fairer series next year.
but as a chch/usa rider said, to win its about how much you gamble on being caught..........
sad comment i thought, but thats how some professional riders think....

[GSVR]

I am making representation to MNZ that competitors should at least be allowed to revalve the shock whilst still retaining the stock piston. That is sensible and I think the reasons I will be putting forward are certainly not hollow.To do nothing would be cheating sensibility.
A very heavy guy that would need a substanial increase in spring rate to achieve the correct sag ratios would end up with a shock with so much spring force that it would overcome the rebound damping in the shock, calibrated to match a much lighter spring. If this wasnt allowable then we would disadvantage that rider.
Given that the shocks are now servicable ( unlike the sealed up pogosicks 30 odd years ago ) it creates a nightmare re enforcement.
While you are so freely delighting in using the word ''cheating'' pause to think how the powers that be have effectively cheated us out of an excellent road race commissioner.

As witnessed at many trackdays a reasonably good rider can punt around a stock 600 reasonably quickly. The more mods you allow the less appealing the class would be to the the person that wants to race their stock bike.

As long as skilled technicians like yourself don't hijack the class by modifying shocks I doubt there will be many people wanting to pull shocks apart and experiment after all they have to be re-pressurised right?. If they choose to then let them sweat over running a technically illegal bike!

What I personally don't want to see happen is riders that would otherwise be racing Supersport moving into this class and further diluting the present class. This is what has happend in Protwin with the top riders in that class coming from F3. If the bikes are really standard hopefully the class wont appeal as much to the "serious" racer and new blood will feel theres more chance of "having a go" without all the technicalities and expenses of a "premier class" racebike.

[Robert Taylor]

As witnessed at many trackdays a reasonably good rider can punt around a stock 600 reasonably quickly. The more mods you allow the less appealing the class would be to the the person that wants to race their stock bike.

As long as skilled technicians like yourself don't hijack the class by modifying shocks I doubt there will be many people wanting to pull shocks apart and experiment after all they have to be re-pressurised right?. If they choose to then let them sweat over running a technically illegal bike!

What I personally don't want to see happen is riders that would otherwise be racing Supersport moving into this class and further diluting the present class. This is what has happend in Protwin with the top riders in that class coming from F3. If the bikes are really standard hopefully the class wont appeal as much to the "serious" racer and new blood will feel theres more chance of "having a go" without all the technicalities and expenses of a "premier class" racebike.

And the harder they punt them around the more and more they have tyre issues, exactly why some low cost reshimming of the stock piston will be a neccessity.

[GSVR]

And the harder they punt them around the more and more they have tyre issues, exactly why some low cost reshimming of the stock piston will be a neccessity.

If they choose to go to an unsuitable tyre it may chew out very quickly this happens with the best of suspensions. If they choose a harder more robust compound the tyres will last but at the expense of less grip.

In MotoGP they have tyres that are so sticky and grippy they bearly last a lap right?

In Superbikes the bikes slide around alot and this is where the skilled riders come to the fore.

It would not be a bad thing if the bikes had less grip and moved around more infact it would develop bike handling skills in the riders before moving to a really grippy situation where the bike bites back hard.

[Robert Taylor]

If they choose to go to an unsuitable tyre it may chew out very quickly this happens with the best of suspensions. If they choose a harder more robust compound the tyres will last but at the expense of less grip.

In MotoGP they have tyres that are so sticky and grippy they bearly last a lap right?

In Superbikes the bikes slide around alot and this is where the skilled riders come to the fore.

It would not be a bad thing if the bikes had less grip and moved around more infact it would develop bike handling skills in the riders before moving to a really grippy situation where the bike bites back hard.

I can already hear the crashing. Like CS363 said dont be so naive.

[sinfull]

And the harder they punt them around the more and more they have tyre issues, exactly why some low cost reshimming of the stock piston will be a neccessity.


If they choose to go to an unsuitable tyre it may chew out very quickly this happens with the best of suspensions. If they choose a harder more robust compound the tyres will last but at the expense of less grip.

In MotoGP they have tyres that are so sticky and grippy they bearly last a lap right?

In Superbikes the bikes slide around alot and this is where the skilled riders come to the fore.

It would not be a bad thing if the bikes had less grip and moved around more infact it would develop bike handling skills in the riders before moving to a really grippy situation where the bike bites back hard.
I honestly think that shock issue will be amended, if not imediately ! A few chewed up (very expensive) tyres from "privateers" without tyre sponsors will have emails flowing into MNZ !
I don't know if its the bike (Not a F2 bike and obviously not grunty enough) or the i aint going hard enough, but my tyres are lasting a couple of meetings and sure as hell aint chewing out more like wearing out !
Whereas a mate on a gxs600 is nailing tyres like ya wouldn't believe (obvious shock problem)

[Robert Taylor]

I honestly think that shock issue will be amended, if not imediately ! A few chewed up (very expensive) tyres from "privateers" without tyre sponsors will have emails flowing into MNZ !
I don't know if its the bike (Not a F2 bike and obviously not grunty enough) or the i aint going hard enough, but my tyres are lasting a couple of meetings and sure as hell aint chewing out more like wearing out !
Whereas a mate on a gxs600 is nailing tyres like ya wouldn't believe (obvious shock problem)

Thanks for stating that loud and clear!

[GSVR]

I honestly think that shock issue will be amended, if not imediately ! A few chewed up (very expensive) tyres from "privateers" without tyre sponsors will have emails flowing into MNZ !
I don't know if its the bike (Not a F2 bike and obviously not grunty enough) or the i aint going hard enough, but my tyres are lasting a couple of meetings and sure as hell aint chewing out more like wearing out !
Whereas a mate on a gxs600 is nailing tyres like ya wouldn't believe (obvious shock problem)

So Bill what Suspension (Back and Front) do you run , also what brand,type, and compound tyres do you run. Most "serious" racers with superbikes only get a race out of their back tyres !

And your mate on the 600 whats his suspension tyre brand compound setup?

A guy showed up at the last testday at Mafield with new rubber on his GSXR 750 and he had really good suspension but still managed to really mess up his rear tyre? Why do you think this happend?




Thanks for stating that loud and clear!

Gezz Robert talk about quoteing something without all the information!

[sinfull]

Thanks for stating that loud and clear!
Of course the other issue is "how many 600 riders out there who would otherwise be eligable for the Privateers cup" have upgraded shocks ?
Would they say their shock is upgraded and volunteer to revalve it back to OEM ?
If not, does that make them a cheat or just not stupid ?
Would they make you tear down your shock, so as to mic all the shims if you won in the privateers cup ?
Would be so much, less expensive and easier to police (like at a glance), to just amend it to a revalved stock shock allowed, but no after market !
If a privateer cant afford to revalve a shock how is he paying for tyres ?
If i were nailing a tyre a meeting and couldn't resolve it with a spring, i would drop out of the Privateer cup (tui) and revalve to save my tyres !
Now that i've got to the point of wanting a new tyre per meeting it's hard to sell tyres second hand if they're sheared to buggery !
Spose i should find an email address for MNZ and send it there rather than here !

[svs]

Apart from the rear shock issue it doesn't seem so bad. I can say first hand that a poorly set up shock can destroy a rear tyre - and you don't notice this untill you start going a bit faster.

What's cheaper over a season? $1500 on a decent shock setup, or rear tyres lasting 10 laps at $500 a pop? (plus extra crash money)

And I imagine they'll also have restrictions about how many tyres you can use in a weekend which would mean if your suspension isn't set up correctly you'll end up with toasted tyres before the last race starts.

Also what about

3-23a Privateers Cup
The undercutting of the gearbox drive dogs or machining of gears is optional..

I know this is my lack of knowledge, but why is machining of gears still considered necessary? Some modern bikes already come with undercut gears and in the game of controlling costs - why not just keep the gearbox standard.

[sinfull]

So Bill what Suspension (Back and Front) do you run , also what brand,type, and compound tyres do you run. Most "serious" racers with superbikes only get a race out of their back tyres !

And your mate on the 600 whats his suspension tyre brand compound setup?

A guy showed up at the last testday at Mafield with new rubber on his GSXR 750 and he had really good suspension but still managed to really mess up his rear tyre? Why do you think this happend?





Gezz Robert talk about quoteing something without all the information!
The 1050 is totally stock and when i did the set up i had a near perfect 30mm rider and 8 static sag (lucky aye)
Running racetecs k1 k2 and after doing qual. and race 1 felt it letting go a few times in race 2 total of 15 laps !
Mates 600, we tried to do a set up at a bernard track day and it was totally up the shit !
To get the correct rider sag we lost all static, so told him to change the spring rate ! (yet to do that, but the 600 spring was obviously for a skinny bloke) Have to wonder that if he does the spring whether the valving would work correctly as Robert said mate, ya have to wonder !
I've learnt a little about comp and rebound valving of late and know the triumph is still lacking, but i'm getting away with it !
Wonder if it will be the same when i get an F2 bike !

Have to argue that the guy on the 750 aint come to terms with the science of suspension yet and his settings were all up the shit !

[GSVR]

The 1050 is totally stock and when i did the set up i had a near perfect 30mm rider and 8 static sag (lucky aye)
Running racetecs k1 k2 and after doing qual. and race 1 felt it letting go a few times in race 2 total of 15 laps !
Mates 600, we tried to do a set up at a bernard track day and it was totally up the shit !
To get the correct rider sag we lost all static, so told him to change the spring rate ! (yet to do that, but the 600 spring was obviously for a skinny bloke) Have to wonder that if he does the spring whether the valving would work correctly as Robert said mate, ya have to wonder !
I've learnt a little about comp and rebound valving of late and know the triumph is still lacking, but i'm getting away with it !
Wonder if it will be the same when i get an F2 bike !

Have to argue that the guy on the 750 aint come to terms with the science of suspension yet and his settings were all up the shit !

So your running "stock suspension" Thanks for that. When you actually start riding fast you'll need new fork internals and a TTX :bash: Not that I would know as I "Go Slow Very Readilly" You can go alot faster but you have shown that stock suspension doesn't always chew tyres out in "15 laps"

The guy on the 750 chewed his rear tyre out most probably becuase the track was cold and he had a fairly soft tyre. Could have been suspension settings but track temp soft tyre more likely. If he had waited till later in the day when the temp raised before going out he may not have had an issue.

The guy with the 600 seems to have other issues with his suspension as well as maybe tyre pressures and compound. You can't just say its becuase he didn't have Ohlins,WP or Penske his bike was wearing tyres. Was he a fast rider who had done many trackdays?

Another thing is the forks on some/most 600s need just as much work as the back so is the Privateers class going to allow the right "expensive" internals to be fitted?

The most significant factor in tyrewear is horsepower. More power transmitted more tyre wear for any given tyre.

Tyre wear is minimal on Streetstock then Protwin, Supersport, and Superbike with the most. The best place for rules for a stock bike with a few cheap mods would have been ProTwin with control street tyres.


SVS the primary reason for undercutting gearboxes is to repair rounded dogs and stop them jumping out of gear right? When undercut the gearbox shifting can become slicker.

[brads]

Crikey,all this talk and we havent seen the proposed SBK rules yet,thats going to be interesting,trust me.remember to contact MNZ with your concerns about rule changes.

[Tony.OK]

Crikey,all this talk and we havent seen the proposed SBK rules yet,thats going to be interesting,trust me.remember to contact MNZ with your concerns about rule changes.

They're there too.......
http://www.mnz.co.nz/Proposed_Rule_Changes.aspx#road

Stock valves
Stock cams
Stock harness

Minimal engine work allowed

Be interesting where that takes the HP game...

And if that applies to bikes upto 5 yrs old.......doe's that disqualify the current bikes? Ed better get on the ph mate!

[sinfull]

So your running "stock suspension" Thanks for that. When you actually start riding fast you'll need new fork internals and a TTX :bash: Not that I would know as I "Go Slow Very Readilly" You can go alot faster but you have shown that stock suspension doesn't always chew tyres out in "15 laps"

The guy on the 750 chewed his rear tyre out most probably becuase the track was cold and he had a fairly soft tyre. Could have been suspension settings but track temp soft tyre more likely. If he had waited till later in the day when the temp raised before going out he may not have had an issue.

The guy with the 600 seems to have other issues with his suspension as well as maybe tyre pressures and compound. You can't just say its becuase he didn't have Ohlins,WP or Penske his bike was wearing tyres. Was he a fast rider who had done many trackdays?

Another thing is the forks on some/most 600s need just as much work as the back so is the Privateers class going to allow the right "expensive" internals to be fitted?

The most significant factor in tyrewear is horsepower. More power transmitted more tyre wear for any given tyre.

Tyre wear is minimal on Streetstock then Protwin, Supersport, and Superbike with the most. The best place for rules for a stock bike with a few cheap mods would have been ProTwin with control street tyres.


SVS the primary reason for undercutting gearboxes is to repair rounded dogs and stop them jumping out of gear right? When undercut the gearbox shifting can become slicker.

Sorry for the delay, site was down so i went and swaped exhausts !
Not arguing with ya re leaving things stock as possible, i like the idea but 50% of the guys that would want to do privateers would already have internals done, how ya gonna police it !
Dallas is getting quicker daily and (on my present bike) i aint gonna hold him to 2nd for much longer ! We are both still around 6 seconds off F2 pace (be mid field now going by PMCC R3 times) whats gonna happen when he gets up to pace on that 600 (wont take long) it aint rocket science that if he don't change his tyre every start, the tyres aint gonna keep him upright !
Privateer = going it alone without finacial support Correct ? Means ya scavaging tyres half the time aye ! I'd love to be using the tyres i bought second hand, but i'm scared to cause my comp and rebound clickers do diddly squat as far as adjustment go, its either full in or full out to notice any change !
Already stated that we tried to set up sags for him and it really is way up the shit for his wieght, So it will need seeing to !
Whats wrong with allowing revalving ? It's a well known fact that 90% of stock suspension is very basic and the minute you take that bike off the road and onto a track it dosen't cut the mustard (once you get up to pace) and it will stop any shit fights when one racer says, well the winners shock and forks must be revalved ! I want to protest ! Who does it cost then ? (To tear the shock and forks out and have it checked) the winner, who busted his arse trying to win ! Only to have to pay out coin to have it proven it aint !

[Tony.OK]

Just read the other SBK update for 2010

Theres a Prod SBK class in there
No engine work
Slipon exhaust only
PC3 allowed
Susp same as SBK
Dot tyres to be used, W rated
Stock intake and velocity stacks

Even my bikes got too much on it for that:whistle:

[Maido]

Apart from the rear shock issue it doesn't seem so bad. I can say first hand that a poorly set up shock can destroy a rear tyre - and you don't notice this untill you start going a bit faster.

What's cheaper over a season? $1500 on a decent shock setup, or rear tyres lasting 10 laps at $500 a pop? (plus extra crash money)

And I imagine they'll also have restrictions about how many tyres you can use in a weekend which would mean if your suspension isn't set up correctly you'll end up with toasted tyres before the last race starts.

Also what about


I know this is my lack of knowledge, but why is machining of gears still considered necessary? Some modern bikes already come with undercut gears and in the game of controlling costs - why not just keep the gearbox standard.

I run my gearbox std now, I know for a fact that some brands are prone to slipping or not engaging correctly, this is due to the design of the gear dogs. Basically you are creating a slight angle like a dovetail joint to allow the gears to engage correctly. This isn't exactly a performance enhancement, but also a saftey thing. (hitting a false neutral with someone slipstreamaing isn't good)

Mishy summed it up in another thread:

Originally Posted by Mishy
I'm totally in favour of undercutting the dogs in the grearbox, and it's just a way of making sure that you don't have a failure on the track- like a bike that jumps out of gear. Indexing is also important , so I think It's a good idea to do both any time you have the bike apart. We run a 600 SP bike, and won't even hit the track without undercutting and indexing the gearbox first. The undercutting makes the dogs in the gearbox drag the gears together, rather than let them slide apart, while indexng ensures that all the dogs contact at the same time. We had some "issues" with a Kawasaki gearbox, and I had to do this by hand with a dremel (at midnight on a race weekend - gutted !). The stock box was so bad that my effort was closer than some of the other gears in the box. It's not uncommon for the original gears to be a mile off, and having very little undercut makes them shift into 1st real clean and smooth (nice on a road bike), but it's not good if you want a race gearbox to last - you need undercut for that.
Cam sprockets? I'm not so sure I agree with the rule on that, but then I don't make the rules . . . . . .

[Shaun P]

The 1050 is totally stock and when i did the set up i had a near perfect 30mm rider and 8 static sag (lucky aye)
Running racetecs k1 k2 and after doing qual. and race 1 felt it letting go a few times in race 2 total of 15 laps !
Mates 600, we tried to do a set up at a bernard track day and it was totally up the shit !
To get the correct rider sag we lost all static, so told him to change the spring rate ! (yet to do that, but the 600 spring was obviously for a skinny bloke) Have to wonder that if he does the spring whether the valving would work correctly as Robert said mate, ya have to wonder !
I've learnt a little about comp and rebound valving of late and know the triumph is still lacking, but i'm getting away with it !
Wonder if it will be the same when i get an F2 bike !

Have to argue that the guy on the 750 aint come to terms with the science of suspension yet and his settings were all up the shit !


The other thing that can happen is when you put a harder spring in a standard oem shock it can over heat and fade quite rapidly.

[Shaun P]

Just read the other SBK update for 2010

Theres a Prod SBK class in there
No engine work
Slipon exhaust only
PC3 allowed
Susp same as SBK
Dot tyres to be used, W rated
Stock intake and velocity stacks

Even my bikes got too much on it for that:whistle:

Its getting interesting now!

[Tony.OK]

Its getting interesting now!

Isn't it...................I don't know what to do with my bike now:oi-grr:

Keep all my suspension and update to a stock 08/09 Blade and go Prod SBK?

[svs]

SVS the primary reason for undercutting gearboxes is to repair rounded dogs and stop them jumping out of gear right? When undercut the gearbox shifting can become slicker.

Yep. I know the reason - but is it actually required on modern bikes? We're talking about keeping the engine as stock as possible - why not the gearbox?

Or is the rule there just to allow repairs?

[Robert Taylor]

So Bill what Suspension (Back and Front) do you run , also what brand,type, and compound tyres do you run. Most "serious" racers with superbikes only get a race out of their back tyres !

And your mate on the 600 whats his suspension tyre brand compound setup?

A guy showed up at the last testday at Mafield with new rubber on his GSXR 750 and he had really good suspension but still managed to really mess up his rear tyre? Why do you think this happend?





Gezz Robert talk about quoteing something without all the information!

I dont have screeds of time like you appear to have.

[Danger Dave]

Just read the other SBK update for 2010

Theres a Prod SBK class in there
No engine work
Slipon exhaust only
PC3 allowed
Susp same as SBK
Dot tyres to be used, W rated
Stock intake and velocity stacks

Even my bikes got too much on it for that:whistle:

i like all these proposed changes except the exhaust mod, i think that should be open

[Robert Taylor]

Sorry for the delay, site was down so i went and swaped exhausts !
Not arguing with ya re leaving things stock as possible, i like the idea but 50% of the guys that would want to do privateers would already have internals done, how ya gonna police it !
Dallas is getting quicker daily and (on my present bike) i aint gonna hold him to 2nd for much longer ! We are both still around 6 seconds off F2 pace (be mid field now going by PMCC R3 times) whats gonna happen when he gets up to pace on that 600 (wont take long) it aint rocket science that if he don't change his tyre every start, the tyres aint gonna keep him upright !
Privateer = going it alone without finacial support Correct ? Means ya scavaging tyres half the time aye ! I'd love to be using the tyres i bought second hand, but i'm scared to cause my comp and rebound clickers do diddly squat as far as adjustment go, its either full in or full out to notice any change !
Already stated that we tried to set up sags for him and it really is way up the shit for his wieght, So it will need seeing to !
Whats wrong with allowing revalving ? It's a well known fact that 90% of stock suspension is very basic and the minute you take that bike off the road and onto a track it dosen't cut the mustard (once you get up to pace) and it will stop any shit fights when one racer says, well the winners shock and forks must be revalved ! I want to protest ! Who does it cost then ? (To tear the shock and forks out and have it checked) the winner, who busted his arse trying to win ! Only to have to pay out coin to have it proven it aint !

Exactly re revalving and it would minimise the amount of scutineering required. Stock shocks are far more likely to burn up tyres because more so they are set for road use. Undeniable fact. If you dont spend a little money on them on the number 1 issue then you are going to spend more money elsewhere ( tyres ) Undeniable fact.
Facts that just about everyone who has posted on this thread accept.
Another point, stock shocks do not have a spec card, in order to record the standard spec of each shock a new one for every make and model likely to be raced would have to be pulled apart and all of the settings / valving etc measured. Who pays for that?

[svs]

I run my gearbox std now, I know for a fact that some brands are prone to slipping or not engaging correctly, this is due to the design of the gear dogs. Basically you are creating a slight angle like a dovetail joint to allow the gears to engage correctly. This isn't exactly a performance enhancement, but also a saftey thing. (hitting a false neutral with someone slipstreamaing isn't good)

Mishy summed it up in another thread:

cool, thanks. That is what i was after

[Robert Taylor]

So your running "stock suspension" Thanks for that. When you actually start riding fast you'll need new fork internals and a TTX :bash: Not that I would know as I "Go Slow Very Readilly" You can go alot faster but you have shown that stock suspension doesn't always chew tyres out in "15 laps"

The guy on the 750 chewed his rear tyre out most probably becuase the track was cold and he had a fairly soft tyre. Could have been suspension settings but track temp soft tyre more likely. If he had waited till later in the day when the temp raised before going out he may not have had an issue.

The guy with the 600 seems to have other issues with his suspension as well as maybe tyre pressures and compound. You can't just say its becuase he didn't have Ohlins,WP or Penske his bike was wearing tyres. Was he a fast rider who had done many trackdays?

Another thing is the forks on some/most 600s need just as much work as the back so is the Privateers class going to allow the right "expensive" internals to be fitted?

The most significant factor in tyrewear is horsepower. More power transmitted more tyre wear for any given tyre.

Tyre wear is minimal on Streetstock then Protwin, Supersport, and Superbike with the most. The best place for rules for a stock bike with a few cheap mods would have been ProTwin with control street tyres.


SVS the primary reason for undercutting gearboxes is to repair rounded dogs and stop them jumping out of gear right? When undercut the gearbox shifting can become slicker.

Mate, a chip on both shoulders equals well balanced! Make the bikes slow and fit wooden tyres. That may be a template for racing in Cuba but I dont yet think our living standards are that low.
Most racers actually want to go faster and thrive on good setup and inhabit a world thats a little different to you. Evidence the posts.

[Shaun P]

i like all these proposed changes except the exhaust mod, i think that should be open

8-24 Exhaust system manufacture optional. May be four into one or a two into one system.

8-24a NZ PCM
Exhaust system, Slip on muffler only, standard header must be retained although pollution mechanisms may be removed. Only a stainless or Alloy muffler may be used.

Its actually a big cost saving and theres nothing wrong with std type headers either, there is still the option for full exhaust in Production Superbike rules. They look to be well thought out rules, but as for running class together with slicks vs road race tyres is questionable.

[svs]

3-26a Privateers Cup.
Standard headers must remain standard for that year homologated model,
Muffler may be replaced with stainless or Alloy product only.

Only other constructive comment I have is what about catalytic converters?

Would these have to remain in place, or could they replaced by a short length of pipe?

I think rule needs clarification as it falls between the headers and the muffler, and if it can be removed, then people will remove it as it saves a load of weight.

Now to put all these into an email to vicki@mnz

[Shaun P]

Only other constructive comment I have is what about catalytic converters?

Would these have to remain in place, or could they replaced by a short length of pipe?

I think rule needs clarification as it falls between the headers and the muffler, and if it can be removed, then people will remove it as it saves a load of weight.

Now to put all these into an email to vicki@mnz

That is for 600's although the 1000's is worded better

8-24a NZ PCM
Exhaust system, Slip on muffler only, standard header must be retained although pollution mechanisms may be removed. Only a stainless or Alloy muffler may be used.

[Robert Taylor]

8-24 Exhaust system manufacture optional. May be four into one or a two into one system.

8-24a NZ PCM
Exhaust system, Slip on muffler only, standard header must be retained although pollution mechanisms may be removed. Only a stainless or Alloy muffler may be used.

Its actually a big cost saving and theres nothing wrong with std type headers either, there is still the option for full exhaust in Production Superbike rules. They look to be well thought out rules, but as for running class together with slicks vs road race tyres is questionable.

A lot of lapping would be done with the inevitable extra hazard element. Safety should NEVER be compromised.
The Superbike races at Paeroa were an extreme example of a backmarker problem. I make no apology to the rider involved, there was a ''streetfighter'' bike in the Superbike field that on at least one occassion when he was lapped was a clear danger to the riders that first lapped him. I watched this and it was very lucky there wasnt an incident that could have bought down Craig and / or Gareth. When there is a big discrepancy between speed and skill we have major safety issues.

[brads]

If they choose to go to an unsuitable tyre it may chew out very quickly this happens with the best of suspensions. If they choose a harder more robust compound the tyres will last but at the expense of less grip.

In MotoGP they have tyres that are so sticky and grippy they bearly last a lap right?

In Superbikes the bikes slide around alot and this is where the skilled riders come to the fore.

It would not be a bad thing if the bikes had less grip and moved around more infact it would develop bike handling skills in the riders before moving to a really grippy situation where the bike bites back hard.

Mate,youve got so much to say about tyres and suapension thats its clear youve missed your calling!
The Ohlins and Bridgestone technicions could sure use your halp in Moto GP and SBK,you might even be able to show them how to do things on the cheap.
Why dont you forward them your CV??

[GSVR]

Sorry for the delay, site was down so i went and swaped exhausts !
Not arguing with ya re leaving things stock as possible, i like the idea but 50% of the guys that would want to do privateers would already have internals done, how ya gonna police it !

These are guys that do the Nationals your talking about? Club racing will still be F2 rules for some time I'm picking.

Dallas is getting quicker daily and (on my present bike) i aint gonna hold him to 2nd for much longer ! We are both still around 6 seconds off F2 pace (be mid field now going by PMCC R3 times) whats gonna happen when he gets up to pace on that 600 (wont take long) it aint rocket science that if he don't change his tyre every start, the tyres aint gonna keep him upright !
Privateer = going it alone without finacial support Correct ?

Privateer is someone without Factory backing. ie Suzuki, Yamaha ,Truimph etc don't supply a works bike and spare engines and parts


Means ya scavaging tyres half the time aye ! I'd love to be using the tyres i bought second hand, but i'm scared to cause my comp and rebound clickers do diddly squat as far as adjustment go, its either full in or full out to notice any change !

So is the bike better with them wound full in or full out? Serious question

Already stated that we tried to set up sags for him and it really is way up the shit for his wieght, So it will need seeing to !
Whats wrong with allowing revalving ?

Well when you take revalving to its logical extreme you end up getting your shock revalved for track your racing on. Move to a different track and you may have to revalve again. Change the spring and you may have to revalve again. Wet meeting a revalved shock with softer spring might work better. Do you really want to do all this work every meeting to set your bike up like the top guns will if they run in this class. Keeping it simple will discourage class burglars as they wont have as many tricks to get more speed than the novices.




It's a well known fact that 90% of stock suspension is very basic and the minute you take that bike off the road and onto a track it dosen't cut the mustard (once you get up to pace) and it will stop any shit fights when one racer says, well the winners shock and forks must be revalved ! I want to protest ! Who does it cost then ? (To tear the shock and forks out and have it checked) the winner, who busted his arse trying to win ! Only to have to pay out coin to have it proven it aint !

You should check up on the protest process. In the past motors have been pulled apart and the bikes owner gets it back in bits and a replacement head gasket. Usually making a modification illegal is enough deterent for all but the stupid. Some racers havent even read the rules they buy a bike and assume its legal. As I have said previously only suspension techs can really revalve as you need parts replaced and orifices machined and have to recharge the shock etc. So if they don't perform illegal work we will all be ok. Would you consider revalving your own shock?


If the Privateer class did alllow almost no mods then bikes would be going slower. We all want to go as fast as possible right so whats the point of a privateer class? TIC

[brads]

If the Privateer class did alllow almost no mods then bikes would be going slower. We all want to go as fast as possible right so whats the point of a privateer class? TIC

So with the proposed privateer rules,how many guys do you think will/can be riding them to there limit?
As Ive said somewhere on here before under these rules you can be within 2/3 seconds a lap of the leaders,Even closer if you no what your doing, if your 6/10 seconds off you maybe shoud be thinking of another class.

[GSVR]

So with the proposed privateer rules,how many guys do you think will/can be riding them to there limit?
As Ive said somewhere on here before under these rules you can be within 2/3 seconds a lap of the leaders,Even closer if you no what your doing, if your 6/10 seconds off you maybe shoud be thinking of another class.

I think that if you going to be lapped at the nationals you should pull off the track. Seen a few race outcomes lately influenced by backmarkers.

If you where 6 seconds off the pace your going to be lapped at the most important part of the race for the people battling for the win.

So why not make the privateers cup for anyone without factory backing and have no rule changes?

[GSVR]

Just read the other SBK update for 2010

Theres a Prod SBK class in there
No engine work
Slipon exhaust only
PC3 allowed
Susp same as SBK
Dot tyres to be used, W rated
Stock intake and velocity stacks

Even my bikes got too much on it for that:whistle:

These rules seem perfect for this class. Wouldn't change anything here.

Edit: Maybe the Dot tyres for Slicks. Market to get tyres off top SBK riders and they wear better than stuff with tread.

[sinfull]

If the Privateer class did alllow almost no mods then bikes would be going slower. We all want to go as fast as possible right so whats the point of a privateer class? TIC
So if i wanted to enter the nats as a privateer this year i have to make a decision then aye !
whether to upgrade my suspension and headers and loom and and and awww fuck it i'm back to needing two fucking bikes lol, one for club racing and one for the nationals
Flag the privateers cup then, chances of me winnin anything is next to farrrk all, so i'll just be making my bike go as fast as i can make it go, while trying hard to keep rubber side down ! So that will prolly include suspension, exhaust, and whatever else i feel like changing !
If i manage to get my times down to the point where i wont be lapped in the nats i might just do that too !

[brads]

9 bikes on the grid this year,who knows next year? I think its a good idea to get people into(lets hope it works) the SBK class without spending a shitload of money that would be wasted anyway.

[GSVR]

So if i wanted to enter the nats as a privateer this year i have to make a decision then aye !
whether to upgrade my suspension and headers and loom and and and awww fuck it i'm back to needing two fucking bikes lol, one for club racing and one for the nationals
Flag the privateers cup then, chances of me winnin anything is next to farrrk all, so i'll just be making my bike go as fast as i can make it go, while trying hard to keep rubber side down ! So that will prolly include suspension, exhaust, and whatever else i feel like changing !
If i manage to get my times down to the point where i wont be lapped in the nats i might just do that too !

The class that would suit you fine is Red Fentons proposed naked bike class. It has suspension mods but sounds like a great class for anyone with a naked bike.

If you don't do any other major meeting go and do the Sound of Thunder. Just ask a few people who have done it. They all rave about it.

[sinfull]

The class that would suit you fine is Red proposed naked bike class. It has suspension mods but sounds like a great class for anyone with a naked bike.

If you don't do any other major meeting go and do the Sound of Thunder. Just ask a few people who have done it. They all rave about it.
Sound of thunder would have been great and i'm dissapointed i couldn't get down there this year but its one meeting lol If the Idea of Reds for the nakeds class dont go ahead soon, i may as well buy a harley !
Mate, i've already made the decision to trade the 1050 into an F2 bike and chase the guys i've been pitting against before they get to far ahead of me !
It's sitting here in full road trim now, couple of minor touches and i'm off to visit the bike shops to see what deal i can come out with !

[sidecar bob]

This whole tyre wear/suspension argument has got me fucked.
The LCR sidecar guys with their 8 grands worth of trick shit that they are forever pissing around with use aprox one rear tyre per race.
We've got about ten bucks worth of old crap, brand name i cant even remember that are about 19 years old. We never touch them & our rear tyres last two meetings, and we kick their arses.
Whats up with that?

[Robert Taylor]

Well its clear from Go Slowers incessant ramblings that if you know anything about suspension you should pretty much be burnt at the stake. How dare a handful of people lift the game in suspension understanding over the last few years! How dare these people help us keep pace with technology developments happening in the rest of the first world!
What a dull grey world it would be if everything was dumbed down.
If the proposed suspension ruling in all its stupidity goes through it will get kind of interesting at the Teretonga round of the Nationals. But then I dont recall those that support such a rule frequenting that circuit and being familiar with the severe tyre degradation issue it ALWAYS throws up. It then doesnt take a rocket scientist to work out that high quality aftermarket shocks are ( aside from the performance and stability of performance benefits ) also designed to be recalibrated a whole lot quicker than oem units.
Perhaps in Go Slowers boring little world all the circuits should be made exactly the same as well, because the different challenges they throw up are just too hard and too unfair.

[Ivan]

Its a great Idea to have so close to standered so you can try it out race on the cheap and say next year I wanna go into SBK or 600 whatever and then spend the money but I agree Valving should be alowed rather than just springs.

[Robert Taylor]

This whole tyre wear/suspension argument has got me fucked.
The LCR sidecar guys with their 8 grands worth of trick shit that they are forever pissing around with use aprox one rear tyre per race.
We've got about ten bucks worth of old crap, brand name i cant even remember that are about 19 years old. We never touch them & our rear tyres last two meetings, and we kick their arses.
Whats up with that?

Perhaps you are a better sidecar racer and if you were on their outfit youd lap faster than them? The biological element can vary greatly.
And compared to motorcycles sidecars have rather a lot more surface contact area to perform the duty.

[sidecar bob]

Perhaps you are a better sidecar racer and if you were on their outfit youd lap faster than them? The biological element can vary greatly.
And compared to motorcycles sidecars have rather a lot more surface contact area to perform the duty.

I am aware, as are all other sidecar competitors, that if my rider was punting the latest european weapon he would be untouchable. Thats why we avoid them.

[Tony.OK]

They look to be well thought out rules, but as for running class together with slicks vs road race tyres is questionable.


A lot of lapping would be done with the inevitable extra hazard element. Safety should NEVER be compromised.
The Superbike races at Paeroa were an extreme example of a backmarker problem. I make no apology to the rider involved, there was a ''streetfighter'' bike in the Superbike field that on at least one occassion when he was lapped was a clear danger to the riders that first lapped him. I watched this and it was very lucky there wasnt an incident that could have bought down Craig and / or Gareth. When there is a big discrepancy between speed and skill we have major safety issues.


These rules seem perfect for this class. Wouldn't change anything here.

Edit: Maybe the Dot tyres for Slicks. Market to get tyres off top SBK riders and they wear better than stuff with tread.

Whats the problem with road race tyres? I've had no probs using them so far, and I'm not mid-back of the pack. Same compounds with tread aren't they?

As for lapping well thats where organisers will have to start using the 115% rule.................shit at PMCC rnd 3 four of us were doing 1:35's or better and there was a dude doin 2:00 laps, I for one got stuck not knowing which way he was gonna go...............its all about realising where you should be not where you want to be.

I'm all set to get my red numbers, I wish I hadn't just sold some parts:crazy:

[GSVR]

Whats the problem with road race tyres? I've had no probs using them so far, and I'm not mid-back of the pack. Same compounds with tread aren't they?

As for lapping well thats where organisers will have to start using the 115% rule.................shit at PMCC rnd 3 four of us were doing 1:35's or better and there was a dude doin 2:00 laps, I for one got stuck not knowing which way he was gonna go...............its all about realising where you should be not where you want to be.

I'm all set to get my red numbers, I wish I hadn't just sold some parts:crazy:

Nothing wrong with DOT approved tyres. They have got alot better for the wear from the groove edges now they are laying the grooves almost parallel to the rotation of the tyre. The older patterns used to scollop out where as a slick has no edges to wear from. I was also looking at it from the aspect of low budget riders purchasing slightly used slicks from the elite superbike riders that fit new rubber often.

The lapping of slower bikes is IMO one of the biggest safety issues especailly when theres a group of lead riders. Can't really do much about it club racing with cross entering. Its up to the passing riders to have regard for others safety.

Youll have a good chance of doing well without the huge costs of chasing more power.

[Grey Beard]

Great ideas people, but the question I would ask is:

Are you just letting off steam here on this site or is all these comments being forwarded to the people who have asked for input prior to making changes.

What makes you sure that MNZ are monitoring what is being said.
We know the CEO is, because he has had goes at posters in the past, but whether anyone else is, is questionable

How many of you have passed your thoughts onto MNZ, because if you don't, they will do what they think, rather than what you want.

So have your say on here, but also send your thoughts to vicky@mnz.co.nz so she can forward them to the rules committee.

The same applies to VOTING, If you don't Vote in the MNZ Elections, don't complain later

[JayRacer37]

Indeed, springs are about position, DAMPING IS ABOUT CONTROLLING RATE OF CHANGE OF POSITION. These rule proposals show a lack of understanding on that count. For example if I was a 75kg rider on a GSXR600 or R6 Id be noticing straight away that theres an acceleartion squat issue off especially the tightest turns. An uninformed approach would say ''fit a firmer spring'' When in fact for the same $300 that the spring would cost you a few simple internal valving tricks would in fact yield a much better result. FACT. Plus the bike will ride bumps better because it wont be oversprung.
AND, how are they going to police it?

Yup, I'm a phat phuk, so I guess I can't be a "privateer"...then i'm gunna have to be a factory rider!!! :2thumbsup

I thought we were all 'privateers' in NZ?

[Maido]

Yup, I'm a phat phuk, so I guess I can't be a "privateer"...then i'm gunna have to be a factory rider!!! :2thumbsup

I thought we were all 'privateers' in NZ?

Lols, I was talking to BB earlier today, He was wondering who the factory teams were in the 600 class, I tend to agree. I am by no means a factory rider, but I would go in the "factory" class as I like playing with shiny stuff on my bike.

[GSVR]

Yup, I'm a phat phuk, so I guess I can't be a "privateer"...then i'm gunna have to be a factory rider!!! :2thumbsup

I thought we were all 'privateers' in NZ?

Yeap I told you you where looking bigger a year or so ago! Lay off the pies! So hows the injuries are you almost ready to rock and roll again?

Perhaps a compromise to this situation would be to let phat phuckers and skinny shits get there shocks revalved and then at the first round of the nationals have them marked in a way (paint seal etc) that no further fiddling could be done without application to MNZ.

Heard a few opinions at the CD trackday today. Some for some against the proposed rules.

[The Chow]

Ok

What is being proposed is only what riders have been bleating about all season. We can't go racing because etc etc etc.

Now the way I see it , it could have something like:

Class 1:
Superbikes: As Is
Superstock: Standard everything , except suspension which would be the same as with Superbikes. Treaded DOT tyres . No distributor backed or assisted bikes including no defferred payment schemes through dealers). Capacity same as superbikes.

Class 2:
600SP: No distributor assisted/backed bikes (this includes deferred payment schemes through dealers etc).

Class 3:
650 Pro-Twin As is

Class 4:
Formula 3:
As is except open it to 250 Grand Prix Machines. Times are now a lot closer than previous. (personally I would ride a 250GP any time rather than 4 stroke converted road bike).

Class 5:
250 Pro-Twin Run along the same lines as 650 Pro-Twin but with more restrictions. Open only to 250 4 stroke 250 Twins , like ZXR250 and Hysosung 250.

Class 6:
Ultralightweight:
125cc Single Cylinder 2 Strokes
250cc Single Cylinder 4 Strokes

Class 7:
Sidecars - As is.:Playnice:

[The Chow]

Hey Jay

I hear your dad has left Darbi's? And your bike and gear is being sold? sounds a good deal with all the stuff that goes with it.

[Robert Taylor]

Yeap I told you you where looking bigger a year or so ago! Lay off the pies! So hows the injuries are you almost ready to rock and roll again?

Perhaps a compromise to this situation would be to let phat phuckers and skinny shits get there shocks revalved and then at the first round of the nationals have them marked in a way (paint seal etc) that no further fiddling could be done without application to MNZ.

Heard a few opinions at the CD trackday today. Some for some against the proposed rules.

And pray tell how many of those people had a deep understanding of chassis / suspension / tyre interaction ???????????
Very often the rules are made / voted on by people with not enough understanding, FACT.

[Robert Taylor]

Great ideas people, but the question I would ask is:

Are you just letting off steam here on this site or is all these comments being forwarded to the people who have asked for input prior to making changes.

What makes you sure that MNZ are monitoring what is being said.
We know the CEO is, because he has had goes at posters in the past, but whether anyone else is, is questionable

How many of you have passed your thoughts onto MNZ, because if you don't, they will do what they think, rather than what you want.

So have your say on here, but also send your thoughts to vicky@mnz.co.nz so she can forward them to the rules committee.

The same applies to VOTING, If you don't Vote in the MNZ Elections, don't complain later

Yes, apparently its rubbish according to the said person.

[Robert Taylor]

Yeap I told you you where looking bigger a year or so ago! Lay off the pies! So hows the injuries are you almost ready to rock and roll again?

Perhaps a compromise to this situation would be to let phat phuckers and skinny shits get there shocks revalved and then at the first round of the nationals have them marked in a way (paint seal etc) that no further fiddling could be done without application to MNZ.

Heard a few opinions at the CD trackday today. Some for some against the proposed rules.

If every single race was on the same circuit with the same conditions then yes the same internal spec would suffice. But such a proposal is naive to the reality of nowadays such bikes are sensitive to different circuits. This is not 1970. an age of flimsy frames, wooden tyres, no power and no suspension.

[JayRacer37]

Hey Jay

I hear your dad has left Darbi's? And your bike and gear is being sold? sounds a good deal with all the stuff that goes with it.

Yeah,

Bike as I last raced it with ALL the kit (tyre warmers, spare wheels...everything but the van to take it to the track!) is for sale, check out the trading section of KB for the ad. Dad has moved on, not sure what he is going to do now, no doubt he will pop up somewhere.

[JayRacer37]

Yeap I told you you where looking bigger a year or so ago! Lay off the pies! So hows the injuries are you almost ready to rock and roll again?


I looked bigger cos a year ago I had my last growth spurt - I went from being a weedy kid to quite a bit taller and broader (SHOULDERS-not just gut...). Since the injury I have put on weight as I havn't done any training. Getting better but still not allowed to race, am looking at getting a road bike to at least have some bike time soon though. :woohoo:

[GSVR]

I looked bigger cos a year ago I had my last growth spurt - I went from being a weedy kid to quite a bit taller and broader (SHOULDERS-not just gut...). Since the injury I have put on weight as I havn't done any training. Getting better but still not allowed to race, am looking at getting a road bike to at least have some bike time soon though. :woohoo:

Sounded like a really nasty accident. Good to hear your getting better. The Yamaha is probably the best of the 600s at the moment so this would be a great deal for anyone in the market for a supersport racebike.

[svr]

And pray tell how many of those people had a deep understanding of chassis / suspension / tyre interaction ???????????
Very often the rules are made / voted on by people with not enough understanding, FACT.

They're called `riders', Robert.

[Robert Taylor]

They're called `riders', Robert.

That is simplistic to the reality and you know what I was trying to say. There are riders who have a good understanding re the whole chassis / suspension and tyre interaction thing. There are inevitably many newer riders ( and I in no way say this in a derisory way ) that dont understand the dynamics and therefore their 2 cents worth is much less ''accurate''. That is similiar to saying youd rather have the qualified and experienced guy work on your valuable equipment rather than the raw apprentice.

[svr]

There are inevitably many newer riders ( and I in no way say this in a derisory way ) that dont understand the dynamics and therefore their 2 cents worth is much less ''accurate''

Its not a perfect system!

[Robert Taylor]

Great ideas people, but the question I would ask is:

Are you just letting off steam here on this site or is all these comments being forwarded to the people who have asked for input prior to making changes.

What makes you sure that MNZ are monitoring what is being said.
We know the CEO is, because he has had goes at posters in the past, but whether anyone else is, is questionable

How many of you have passed your thoughts onto MNZ, because if you don't, they will do what they think, rather than what you want.

So have your say on here, but also send your thoughts to vicky@mnz.co.nz so she can forward them to the rules committee.

The same applies to VOTING, If you don't Vote in the MNZ Elections, don't complain later

The position of MNZ President is a no brainer, vote for Jim Tuckerman. He is a feet on the ground type of guy who puts a lot of effort into helping run the road race series. He is there beavering away, how often do you evidence the encumbent being at the coalface of meetings?
If Jim gets elected he will also pull the reins in of a runaway horse and restore democracy and reasoned decision making within that organisation.

[cs363]

The position of MNZ President is a no brainer.

Sorry.....was that deliberate??? :rofl:

[cowpoos]

And pray tell how many of those people had a deep understanding of chassis / suspension / tyre interaction ???????????
Very often the rules are made / voted on by people with not enough understanding, FACT.


Yes, apparently its rubbish according to the said person.


If every single race was on the same circuit with the same conditions then yes the same internal spec would suffice. But such a proposal is naive to the reality of nowadays such bikes are sensitive to different circuits. This is not 1970. an age of flimsy frames, wooden tyres, no power and no suspension.

there is a function to quote multiple people in one post...

On the persons post you want to quote, there is a link called 'multi' click that and then carry on reading thread...if you see another post worthy of attention...click multi again...and so forth...and once you have decided to have you opinion...click quote on one of the said posts...and it will quote them all in the one hit :)

Clever aye!!

[Pussy]

there is a function to quote multiple people in one post...

On the persons post you want to quote, there is a link called 'multi' click that and then carry on reading thread...if you see another post worthy of attention...click multi again...and so forth...and once you have decided to have you opinion...click quote on one of the said posts...and it will quote them all in the one hit :)

Clever aye!!

Poos, IT geek!

Actually, thanks for that, I didn't have a clue how that worked either!!

[cowpoos]

Poos, IT geek!

Actually, thanks for that, I didn't have a clue how that worked either!!
well...at times...Robert does abit of passionate posting...and it can take up near a half a page...so thought I would forward an efficient way of replying..and as he is a great lover of efficient [and very functional] engineering...I though he may see the advantages of my suggestion :)

[Pussy]

well...at times...Robert does abit of passionate posting...and it can take up near a half a page...so thought I would forward an efficient way of replying..and as he is a great lover of efficient [and very functional] engineering...I though he may see the advantages of my suggestion :)

I concur, Dr Poos!

[DVS 69]

Far what a mean read up ive read from the front page and i just hope that any mods i get done dont ruin my chances to run in f2 or what ever. I do like the fact ive got sinfull wondering what he can do to hold me out abit longer :2thumbsup. Being the person being talked about in sum of the posts i dont really know what to say ......... I been riding 16 years never owned a car, ive probibly been doing trackdays etc for the last 5 or 6 years. Wanting to get faster and getting faster is a ongoing thing and the peg is always moving, im at the stage now where i do want sum good gear eg suspention. Having spoken to lots and lots of racers and ex racers they say the biggest improvement you can make is suspention ??!! Im confused

[sinfull]

I do like the fact ive got sinfull wondering what he can do to hold me out abit longer :2thumbsup. Ba doom tchish !
<table style="width:auto;"><tr><td><a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/IfP0VGufGkwLYNIYS-GbpA?feat=embedwebsite"><img src="http://lh5.ggpht.com/_3nZ66-Z8vBs/ScF8bdMmx4I/AAAAAAAABs4/xDeEmE5cqJ8/s144/Daytona-675-INTERMOT.jpg" /></a></td></tr><tr><td style="font-family:arial,sans-serif; font-size:11px; text-align:right">From <a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/sinfullbastard/BikesToBeHad?feat=embedwebsite">Bikes to be had</a></td></tr></table>


Im confused

So am i mate ! Not sure if these privateer rules will be for all F2, ie: the club racing as well yet, or if its just for the nationals ! Sounds like it's just the nationals but watching and waiting !

[wharfy]

Ba doom tchish !
<table style="width:auto;"><tr><td><a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/IfP0VGufGkwLYNIYS-GbpA?feat=embedwebsite"><img src="http://lh5.ggpht.com/_3nZ66-Z8vBs/ScF8bdMmx4I/AAAAAAAABs4/xDeEmE5cqJ8/s144/Daytona-675-INTERMOT.jpg" /></a></td></tr><tr><td style="font-family:arial,sans-serif; font-size:11px; text-align:right">From <a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/sinfullbastard/BikesToBeHad?feat=embedwebsite">Bikes to be had</a></td></tr></table>



So am i mate ! Not sure if these privateer rules will be for all F2, ie: the club racing as well yet, or if its just for the nationals ! Sounds like it's just the nationals but watching and waiting !

My understanding is they will be a NATIONAL class run in conjunction with 600SP/F2/F1.
Clubs have not changed anything as far as I know. Also they are still "proposed" at this stage are they not ?

[wharfy]

Far what a mean read up ive read from the front page and i just hope that any mods i get done dont ruin my chances to run in f2 or what ever. I do like the fact ive got sinfull wondering what he can do to hold me out abit longer :2thumbsup. Being the person being talked about in sum of the posts i dont really know what to say ......... I been riding 16 years never owned a car, ive probibly been doing trackdays etc for the last 5 or 6 years. Wanting to get faster and getting faster is a ongoing thing and the peg is always moving, im at the stage now where i do want sum good gear eg suspention. Having spoken to lots and lots of racers and ex racers they say the biggest improvement you can make is suspention ??!! Im confused

Depends on your baseline. I got an Ohlins shock and RaceTech sping & valve kit on my Hornet and it transformed the bike. But the original shock & forks where bargain bin items and were pretty much crap.
My Daytona 675 on the other hand has got standard suspension and is way better than the Hornet - even after the mods to the Hornet suspension.

Admittedly I am not pushing it hard (yet :) ) but the standard stuff is not shit. Of course if I fancied my chances of taking out a National title I probably would not be using a Daytona (its about 20+ HP down on the other 600 class bikes)

[svs]

Admittedly I am not pushing it hard (yet :) ) but the standard stuff is not shit. Of course if I fancied my chances of taking out a National title I probably would not be using a Daytona (its about 20+ HP down on the other 600 class bikes)

rubbish :innocent: it's a few hp down, but has more torque out of corners. may loose a little at the end of a long straight.

Look at results from ruapuna this year, then look at sound of thunder results - a certain jamie galway lapped faster on his older 675 than his '08 R6.

My R6 is putting out similar hp at rear wheel to Nick O's 675's.

If i could trade the R6 for a 675 I would

[Robert Taylor]

rubbish :innocent: it's a few hp down, but has more torque out of corners. may loose a little at the end of a long straight.

Look at results from ruapuna this year, then look at sound of thunder results - a certain jamie galway lapped faster on his older 675 than his '08 R6.

My R6 is putting out similar hp at rear wheel to Nick O's 675's.

If i could trade the R6 for a 675 I would

I like Triumph 675s, great torquey motor and a whole heap nicer to ride than an R6. If I still had a hankering to ride motorcycles Id buy a 675, no contest.
With all respect to Jamie there were periods during the Nationals when he just wasnt on his game and I think that also may have coincided with the Ruapuna round, I think he may have been carrying an injury.Irrespective he wasnt up to speed at that round.
When comparing apples with apples the ''biological component'' ( the rider ) can vary greatly, more so in a country where ALL the racers are part timers, so they are not finely honed and consistently fast as is a full time rider at the top of his game.
Within the bounds of our 600 rules it appears that the R6 is actually a faster racebike, but the only way of conclusively proving that would be to have examples of each fully setup and the same rider. Same tracks, same day. In WSS600 the Triumph has had flashes of brilliance but the results just arent there. Engine, suspension, reliability issues, who knows.
Im still amazed that the naked offshoot has been accorded ''bike of the year'' in one of the publications. Much like the faired version its okay on smooth roads but get it on bumpy roads that cause longer suspension stroke movements and you find out very quickly how over-aggressive the rear linkage ratio is. Chiropractor material.
Dan Ornsbys 675 was most consistently the fastest example around Ruapuna at SOT, not in top speed / grunt but overall.

[wharfy]

rubbish :innocent: it's a few hp down, but has more torque out of corners. may loose a little at the end of a long straight.

Look at results from ruapuna this year, then look at sound of thunder results - a certain jamie galway lapped faster on his older 675 than his '08 R6.

My R6 is putting out similar hp at rear wheel to Nick O's 675's.

If i could trade the R6 for a 675 I would

I was at SOT this year and indeed the 675's DOMINATED well not mine ( I was the slowest 675 rider there :) )
Daniel Ormsby on the other hand won every race he entered but his lap times were several seconds of of the pace of the Nationals 600 class. I don't know if Daniel Ormsby was racing a 675 at the Nationals but he qualified 7th was 8th in both races. My only mod is a Harris pipe and on Mr Harris's dyno it is 114 at the rear wheel. (as opposed to 104 standard)

The Galway 675 has had a LOT of money spent on it, I have no idea what HP it is at the treads though.

I would of course be VERY interested to see rear wheel HP figures for the top 10 600's
and naturally would love to see a whole bunch of 675's racing.
One of the reasons I got one was because of the torque so when I cock up a corner and am coming out in the wrong gear it won't be quite so obvious :)
The other is that I can race in heaps of classes B.E.A.R.s 600sp/F2 and even F1 if I was REALLY keen :)

But I still don't see anyone campaigning them for the National series.

[Maido]

I will post my 600's HP graph if you want (it is at work, so can't get it till monday), you will be supprised how much they don't have compared to what you think they might have.

[Robert Taylor]

I will post my 600's HP graph if you want (it is at work, so can't get it till monday), you will be supprised how much they don't have compared to what you think they might have.

Of course, dynos are only comparitors, no two are the same and you can get widely disparit figures from one end of the country to the other. It wouldnt matter if the measurement unit was bananas, as long as you were using the same dyno.
You can also amp up the figures by placing the air intake temp sensor in a hot place like behind a radiator. Detectable by the correction factors.

SAE = big value units, lower end number

Japanese DIN = lower value units, bigger end number.

Where was it measured? At the crank, at the output sprocket, at the final driven sprocket or off a drum driven by the rear wheel? Slippage? ETC....

Pamphlet horsepower = great for sales

Pub horsepower = ''mines bigger than yours mentality''

Incidentally Dans bike at the SOT was demonstrably not fast in a straight line ( stock motor ) but he made up for all of that and some in braking and corner speed ( Swedish suspension at both ends ) Horsepower is not everything but it does usually help.

For my money Id love to see someone like Craig Shirriffs on a fully worked 675 or 1198.

[Mishy]

Good sportsmen don't cheat so is our sport full of poor sportsmen who have no issue with cheating at every opportunity?

Go back to the bad old days of 250 production for your answers. Lots of people keep pushing the "real production bikes like we used to have" button, and the truth is that cheating was RAMPANT 10 or 15 years ago in most production classes, and it's actually FAIRER now. I've seen faxes (misdirected ones) from prominent production racers giving instructions on how to fit F3 ignitions to RGV250's, and how to jet for the same ignition, and what to do to the pipes. Cheating is as old as bike racing is, and many of your heroes did it too.
One thing is true - the more you try to regulate, the more scope there is for a clever "interpretation" of the rules.

[Mishy]

I would of course be VERY interested to see rear wheel HP figures for the top 10 600's [/I][/B].

Well, i can tell you that Our R6 (Jay's bike) made 126 banana's on one dyno, and 117 on the one i normally use. And that's where the problem is - thay all measure differently. We refer to the output as "banana's" because they are only relevant to the individual dyno the measurement was taken on, so if you don't know which dyno i use, you will have no idea whether 117 banana's is good or bad.
Whatever the number, they are all FREAKING fast ! and the Jap bikes rule peak horsepower ! :2thumbsup

[wharfy]

Well, i can tell you that Our R6 (Jay's bike) made 126 banana's on one dyno, and 117 on the one i normally use. And that's where the problem is - thay all measure differently. We refer to the output as "banana's" because they are only relevant to the individual dyno the measurement was taken on, so if you don't know which dyno i use, you will have no idea whether 117 banana's is good or bad.
Whatever the number, they are all FREAKING fast ! and the Jap bikes rule peak horsepower ! :2thumbsup

Hey what Dyno showed 126 - I want to use that one !!!

The one that showed the 675 at 114 HP is the same one I had the Hornet on last year and it showed 107 HP. I could not resist hanging about to see what the next couple of bikes made, a Speed triple and a late model Moto Guzzi 1100 sports, both were in the low 90 HP range so I felt quite smug :)

[GSVR]

Well, i can tell you that Our R6 (Jay's bike) made 126 banana's on one dyno, and 117 on the one i normally use. And that's where the problem is - thay all measure differently. We refer to the output as "banana's" because they are only relevant to the individual dyno the measurement was taken on, so if you don't know which dyno i use, you will have no idea whether 117 banana's is good or bad.
Whatever the number, they are all FREAKING fast ! and the Jap bikes rule peak horsepower ! :2thumbsup

I think the dynos days may limited as a tuning tool. They don't take alot of things into account like the ram air effect most modern sportsbikes exploite. They aren't accurate although Triple Rs one must be more comparatively accurate than most.

GPS based logging systems and Motec like ECUs are the way forward here I think.