Tyrewarmer ban.

[GSVR]

Shouldn't tyre manufacturers be developing tyres that grip just was well when cold as when hot.
Yeap tyres like that would be awesome for road and track alike
Manufacturers use motoracing to develop and show off products and technologies that eventually make it to the road going vehicles. How many people have tire warmers fitted to their roadbike or car before they go out for a ride or drive.
The use of tyrewarmers is doing nothing for the development of road tyres and the rubber being delevoped has no real world use except for the racetrack.
Not "nothing" as theres alot more to tyre development then just the compound.
If tyrewarmers where banned and tires had to be fitted at ambient temp the tyres developed would instantly be of benefit for roadusers.
Aint that the truth but whats this going to do to F1 racing?
When do you think tyrewarmers may be banned in WSBK for example? It may be sooner than you think!
I can't see it happening until better compounds are developed
When tyrewarmers are banned in Formula 1 how many years later will the same happen in MotoGP or are the two so completely different that the comparsion is irrelevant.
Well if a F1 car loses grip due to cold tyres it might just spin out. If a bike rider loses grip there is a far greater chance of a crash. Its not totally irrelevant and very relevant to road riders that never use tyrewarmers


Well its really got me baffled as to why F1 wants to ban them. Or has it.

[brads]

Shouldn't tyre manufacturers be developing tyres that grip just was well when cold as when hot. Manufacturers use motoracing to develop and show off products and technologies that eventually make it to the road going vehicles. How many people have tire warmers fitted to their roadbike or car before they go out for a ride or drive.

The use of tyrewarmers is doing nothing for the development of road tyres and the rubber being delevoped has no real world use except for the racetrack. If tyrewarmers where banned and tires had to be fitted at ambient temp the tyres developed would instantly be of benefit for roadusers.

When do you think tyrewarmers may be banned in WSBK for example? It may be sooner than you think! When tyrewarmers are banned in Formula 1 how many years later will the same happen in MotoGP or are the two so completely different that the comparsion is irrelevant.

Holy shit dude,you been smoking some weird shit today or what??:doobey::confused:

[FROSTY]

Holy shit dude,you been smoking some weird shit today or what??:doobey::confused:
No man --go back read it slowly he has a good point

[scuzeme]

If "they" developed a tyre like that, it would prolly only last a couple of laps mate, as with everything there is usually a compromise/trade off bewteen performance and longevity.
Lets not forget tyrewarmers save you and i from lowsides and highsides.
Tyres need heat to settle into their optimum operation range.

Respectfully am i ignorant or are you taking the piss? :corn:

[AllanB]

Ah, yep I'll have what he's having please.

Places thumb and forefinger together, lifts hand to mouth and makes a loud inhaling sound .........

Back to reality.

Street tyres. A compromise between warm-up, stick and life. Today we have a fairly wide choice of very good rubber that will excel in two of the three above or rubber that is very good for all three.

Racing Tyres. A compromise between warm-up, stick and life. These are designed for R A C I N G not fatting around the Coro loop, Akaroa GP etc. Lets face it WSB or Moto GP riders don't give a shit about how slowly YOUR road tyres warm up, stick or wear as it is totally irrelevant to their profession.

What you and I get out of the pure race tyre development for these pros is high tech, better street tyres.

Today's tyres are superb. I can only imagine what they will be like in 10 years - possibility Fi-Wi inbuilt heating strips (like underfloor heating) to pre-warm your ride :2thumbsup

[johan]

In my home country it's compulsory to change tyres as winter approaches, or you will get fined.

You always own two sets of rims and tyres.

Normal (summer) tyres just won't give you enough grip in sub zero temperatures.

The same applies the other way around.

Today's tyres can only operate reliably in a narrow temperature bracket.

In this country, they close down roads if there's an inch of snow on it...

I'm sure motogp/wsbk/v8 will help tyre manufactures to understand how their compounds reacts and works in different environments.

[MaxCannon]

While all the guys on fancy pants bikes with flash stuff like radiators and horsepower are moaning about cold tyres at track days the Bandit with it's sport touring rubber has no trouble finding traction.

It's about horses for courses. A tyre that works well for year round use can't offer the same levels of grip as a sticky compound without sacrificing durability.
Any rubber compound (lets not forget rubber is still a natural product) that could offer maximum grip without warmup would likely be unable to disapate the heat generated by hard use and probably wear out far to quickly.

Assuming you could conquer most of the technical hurdles (and you have to wonder why it hasn't been done yet) the end product would likely be too expensive.

The PR2 I have on the front offers good grip when cold but much better grip when warm.
On the track or on the commute to work I have to let the tyres get a bit of heat or else even modest corner can have the front slide or the back spin up.

[xwhatsit]

Holy shit dude,you been smoking some weird shit today or what??:doobey::confused:


If "they" developed a tyre like that, it would prolly only last a couple of laps mate, as with everything there is usually a compromise/trade off bewteen performance and longevity.


Ah, yep I'll have what he's having please.

Places thumb and forefinger together, lifts hand to mouth and makes a loud inhaling sound .........

Back to reality.
You guys need to get his point. The whole point is that with tyre warmers banned in WSBK/MotoGP etc., the manufacturers are forced to develop for that exact compromise we have as street riders. They're forced to aim to get as best possible performance as well as best possible cold traction. The tyre tech isn't there at the moment, you're right -- but that's exactly the reason to go down this route, to spur development to better the tyre technology so we don't have this problem.

[GSVR]

You guys need to get his point. The whole point is that with tyre warmers banned in WSBK/MotoGP etc., the manufacturers are forced to develop for that exact compromise we have as street riders. They're forced to aim to get as best possible performance as well as best possible cold traction. The tyre tech isn't there at the moment, you're right -- but that's exactly the reason to go down this route, to spur development to better the tyre technology so we don't have this problem.

Thanks for that. The reason I put the thread up is there is a bit of action going on over this in F1 were I think tyrewarmers where meant to be banned this year but its been delayed to 2010.

Put: Formula 1 tyre warmer ban into Google and you'll get some info.

The ban has been criticised by some drivers and even Micheal Shumacher.

Bridgestone is annoyed that theres a delay so this indicates they may have something or feel tyrewarmers are hindering the development they want to do.

Dunno but its all interesting.

Bikes have a definate problem on cold tyres and it makes the riders job alot harder and important when you don't use them as the grip is not consistant at the beginning of a race. Sprint races on current tyres would mean the tyres never actually heat up to temp and the pressures would change alot too.

[Biggles08]

You guys need to get his point. The whole point is that with tyre warmers banned in WSBK/MotoGP etc., the manufacturers are forced to develop for that exact compromise we have as street riders. They're forced to aim to get as best possible performance as well as best possible cold traction. The tyre tech isn't there at the moment, you're right -- but that's exactly the reason to go down this route, to spur development to better the tyre technology so we don't have this problem.


wrong xwhatsit....these tires you speak of are already availiable....they are called street tires! Tire=warmers much to most peoples miss-understanding are not ONLY for heating the rubber for sticking, they are EQUALY to prevent heat cycles destroying the natural polymers in the rubber. Basically, polymers are a long string of molecules that give the rubber a natural flexibility which is ideal as a substance used for traction (like weed is ideal for smoking). This 'string of molecules' rapidly gets broken down through constant rapid heating and cooling.

So....to maintain the tires NATURAL flexibility tirewarmers are used to maintain a temperature rather than "heat" them....they preserve the life of the tire. As has already been said, street riders don't jump off their bikes and wrap their tires up nice and cozy to do this so they must use a rubber compound more durable and hardy to this abuse...that is why there is so many types of tires availiable for different riding styles...heat resistant types = low grip values whereas fast heating/sticky = low wear life BUT great grip. What you are asking from tire manufacturers is to go against nature and make rubber a super solution to every riding type...this is like asking redbull to give you wingssssssssss....its not physically possible :cool:

[scumdog]

How many people have tire warmers fitted to their roadbike or car before they go out for a ride or drive.

.

How many of the above head out on the road and ride/drive at 85%+ of their vehicles capabilities though? (And straight after they ride/drive off)

[Wingnut]

How many of the above head out on the road and ride/drive at 85%+ of their vehicles capabilities though? (And straight after they ride/drive off)

Good point too.

Not to mention that all this development cost will no doubt be passed on to the consumers. There is always going to be a few differences between track and road technology. Its hardly comparing apples with apples is it?

All the same it would be nice to see them develop a tyre that operates just as well cold as it does hot but not at the expence of rider safety. A rule such as this would have to be introduced only once a valid replacement to the status que has been already developed so as not to comprimise safety.

Food for thought though

[GSVR]

So....to maintain the tires NATURAL flexibility tirewarmers are used to maintain a temperature rather than "heat" them....they preserve the life of the tire. As has already been said, street riders don't jump off their bikes and wrap their tires up nice and cozy to do this so they must use a rubber compound more durable and hardy to this abuse...that is why there is so many types of tires availiable for different riding styles...heat resistant types = low grip values whereas fast heating/sticky = low wear life BUT great grip. What you are asking from tire manufacturers is to go against nature and make rubber a super solution to every riding type...this is like asking redbull to give you wingssssssssss....its not physically possible :cool:

You may have heard about how the New Dunlop race tyres are very resistant to heat cycling so maybe its not so hard to achieve.

Also do you think theres alot of difference between Pirelli Supercorsa Street compound and the series of compounds on the Supercorsa Pro tyres?

Many guys have been using racetyres on the street for years and are more than happy with the performance. Whats up with that?

[GSVR]

Good point too.

Not to mention that all this development cost will no doubt be passed on to the consumers. There is always going to be a few differences between track and road technology. Its hardly comparing apples with apples is it?

All the same it would be nice to see them develop a tyre that operates just as well cold as it does hot but not at the expence of rider safety. A rule such as this would have to be introduced only once a valid replacement to the status que has been already developed so as not to comprimise safety.

Food for thought though

I think possibly Bridgestone wants this to happen so they can reduce development costs. They must spend huge amounts developing tyre compounds that are only of use for a very small percentage of total production ie The racetrack. And its probably funded by road user tyre sales.

[Biggles08]

You may have heard about how the New Dunlop race tyres are very resistant to heat cycling so maybe its not so hard to achieve.

Also do you think theres alot of difference between Pirelli Supercorsa Street compound and the series of compounds on the Supercorsa Pro tyres?

Many guys have been using racetyres on the street for years and are more than happy with the performance. Whats up with that?

a lot of factors are relevant as to why certain tires perform one way or another BUT there is always a trade off. I havent heard about the D's being more resistant to heat cycles but still it would only be resistant...not proof. Latex is a natural compound which demonstrates certain characteristics....as long as they are using this for the base they will always have these natural characteristics to work with. Maybe a complete synythetic compound may be the answer for the future?

[Biggles08]

I think possibly Bridgestone wants this to happen so they can reduce development costs. They must spend huge amounts developing tyre compounds that are only of use for a very small percentage of total production ie The racetrack. And its probably funded by road user tyre sales.

Or maybe they want to 'dumb' down the tire development so they can keep up :clap:

[GSVR]

How many of the above head out on the road and ride/drive at 85%+ of their vehicles capabilities though? (And straight after they ride/drive off)

Some interesting points as regard to road safety in this.

Do you think there would be less pedestrians injured if cars where able to pull up within a shorter distance due to better tyres that didn't skid as early or worked better when cold? Or would there just be more nose to tail accidents?

Or is it just drivers don't have the skills to drive to the conditions or responsablity obey speed restrictions.

[sinfull]

Mehhhh i don't know if id be keen !

[GSVR]

Or maybe they want to 'dumb' down the tire development so they can keep up :clap:

They don't have any competition as they are a sole supplier aren't they? Just like Pirelli in WSBK.

[Biggles08]

Or is it just drivers don't have the skills to drive to the conditions or responsablity obey speed restrictions.

This is by far the bigger percentage!

[Biggles08]

They don't have any competition as they are a sole supplier aren't they? Just like Pirelli in WSBK.

ahhh true....sorry thought we were talking bikes again....it was tongue in cheek anyway ;-)

[neil_cb125t]

No one is going to purchase tyres for a ford laser, that will only last 2000ks but will stop if someone jumps out in front of them.

Warmers are a tyres comprimise - all tyres will work better when warm. just like oil - they can make a product that works well when cold - but it will always have to work when HOT

Riders don't have to wait for tyres to get to temp if you make tyres that grip straight out of the bat then the first 5 laps will be fast as and then high sides and low sides after 10-15 laps when a GP bike or superbike lays the power down.

there are tyres out there that don't require warmers - they are wets.
ride on those when its not wet enough - they last 6 laps max on my 400!! then your stepping out everywhere - screwing your tyre in the process. costing you MORE $$$$

F1 is where money needs to go - people go there to have the highest end gear - fastest bike - best brakes etc. if you wanna race in the highest formula in NZ then STEP UP.

With all these controls coming into the PREMIUM class it will turn into another production class.

it seems that the class with the least rules is F3!!

[AllanB]

Nah I did not miss his point - I just thought about it before replying.

A motorcycle road tyre that works equally well from cold as it does at normal temperature. Considering tyres are global you are looking at a air temp of between say 0 to say 38 degrees..........something has to give on that perfect tyre.

As for tyre warmers and racing - WTF is the point of banning them at the top level - it's not cost, do they want more spills in the first 3-4 laps to bring some excitement to the sport?

F1 constantly mucks around with the rules to the point that it is absolutely boring.

WSB racing is tight and exciting and on a control tyre - why remove tyre warmers?

[GSVR]

Nah I did not miss his point - I just thought about it before replying.

A motorcycle road tyre that works equally well from cold as it does at normal temperature. Considering tyres are global you are looking at a air temp of between say 0 to say 38 degrees..........something has to give on that perfect tyre.

As for tyre warmers and racing - WTF is the point of banning them at the top level - it's not cost, do they want more spills in the first 3-4 laps to bring some excitement to the sport?

F1 constantly mucks around with the rules to the point that it is absolutely boring.

WSB racing is tight and exciting and on a control tyre - why remove tyre warmers?

So what do you think is driving Bridgestones desire for no tyrewarmers? Its certainly not to please the teams and drivers.

[AllanB]

So what do you think is driving Bridgestones desire for no tyrewarmers? Its certainly not to please the teams and drivers.

I admit to being totally blank on this one - the only thing I can think of is that Bridgestone has actually invented the 'ideal' race tyre - one that does stick from cold and survive the entire race.

I have a small hat prepared in the event I need to eat it (it's chocolate) :drool:

Maybe they have taken the multi compound tyre concept to a new level. As well as different compounds from centre to side, actually have a different external layer of soft rubber that sticks well from cold, then wears off after say 5 laps.

[GSVR]

I admit to being totally blank on this one - the only thing I can think of is that Bridgestone has actually invented the 'ideal' race tyre - one that does stick from cold and survive the entire race.

I have a small hat prepared in the event I need to eat it (it's chocolate) :drool:

Maybe they have taken the multi compound tyre concept to a new level. As well as different compounds from centre to side, actually have a different external layer of soft rubber that sticks well from cold, then wears off after say 5 laps.

Im not even sure its Bridgestone that are behind it. Maybe it is considered that by making the drivers start on ambient temperature tyres it will require more skill from the driver to adapt to the changing conditions. Alot of talk has been made of the fact that technology is winning races and the drivers role is not as significant as it could be. Perhaps the intention was to give driver skill and adaptablity more influence in the outcome of races.

Just knocking around ideas.

Would the lack of tyrewarmers make the racing any less appealing to the spectators. Why are the drivers upset. From what I gather its safety because of the difference between a car leaving the pits on cold tyres and someone whos already up to speed.

[The Pastor]

in the motogp, i think they should use any technology available to them at the time, its a showcase of what people can make/do.

wsbk, they should ride bikes as you buy them off the floor, no mods allowed :D

[puddy]

In my home country it's compulsory to change tyres as winter approaches, or you will get fined.

You always own two sets of rims and tyres.

Normal (summer) tyres just won't give you enough grip in sub zero temperatures.

The same applies the other way around.

Today's tyres can only operate reliably in a narrow temperature bracket.

In this country, they close down roads if there's an inch of snow on it...

I'm sure motogp/wsbk/v8 will help tyre manufactures to understand how their compounds reacts and works in different environments.

I don't remember Welly being that cold! Windy .. Yes! Horizontal rain in winter ...YES! :rolleyes:

[puddy]

Shouldn't tyre manufacturers be developing tyres that grip just was well when cold as when hot. Manufacturers use motoracing to develop and show off products and technologies that eventually make it to the road going vehicles. How many people have tire warmers fitted to their roadbike or car before they go out for a ride or drive.

The use of tyrewarmers is doing nothing for the development of road tyres and the rubber being delevoped has no real world use except for the racetrack. If tyrewarmers where banned and tires had to be fitted at ambient temp the tyres developed would instantly be of benefit for roadusers.

When do you think tyrewarmers may be banned in WSBK for example? It may be sooner than you think! When tyrewarmers are banned in Formula 1 how many years later will the same happen in MotoGP or are the two so completely different that the comparsion is irrelevant.
Yeah! And worse still is all the noise that the generators make! AT race meeting, sure fine, but now every second bloke at a trackday has them and it's really hard for old fellas like myself to have a bit of a lie-down between sessions with all that racket!:rolleyes:

[wharfy]

I don't remember Welly being that cold! Windy .. Yes! Horizontal rain in winter ...YES! :rolleyes:

Snow on the Rimutaka hill several times most winters :)

[Sully60]

Mehhhh i don't know if id be keen !

Chur bro! Can you get them in 30 profile?

[steveyb]

By the way, no tyre manufacturers use natural rubber (latex) any more.
All tyres are manufactured with styrene butadiene polymers and other synthetic polymers.

[aff-man]

Tyre development has reached the stage where actually race slicks need tyre warmers where as road tyres don't.

There is quite a bit difference between a performance "race" road tyre and a slick. I used to run racetechs (yeh I know) and had a k1 front and a k2 rear and then went on the track with a k0 front and a k1 rear. I thought shit they were suuuuuuper sticky and inspired confidence but then ran slicks (admitidly without warmers) and so though they were garbage... for the first 3 laps then as they got up to heat I couldn't believe the amount of extra grip (especially when the bike was well over).

So yeh I get what you're saying but I still think there is a massive deference between a super performance road/race tyre and a race slick that you need to be able to go 100% from the word go (especially in NZ where the races can be 6 lappers and so are basically a sprint to the finish)

[scuzeme]

.....there are tyres out there that don't require warmers - they are wets.
ride on those when its not wet enough - they last 6 laps max on my 400!! then your stepping out everywhere - screwing your tyre in the process. costing you MORE $$$$.....

Bang on, you simply carnt get a tyre that has 100% optimum effectivenes in all conditions, in other words you will either get a good cold tyre, (compounds designed for wets at this point of time) but these will fail or be severly degraded when the tyre overheats or you can have a great super grippy compound that just isnt gunna cut it for the first couple of laps in a race situation, the technology needed to create a rubber polymer would need to come straight out of a sci fi novel, it would literally need to transmute itself to become a tyre for all seasons....not gunna happen....i too will put a hat aside covered in butter and jam, if i am proved incorrect :dodge:

[hayd3n]

dual compound

[Robert Taylor]

Well all Ive got to say about it is lets ban shock warmers as well, anything that costs money because the world is full of dirty filthy capitalists. Lets make the world boring to a template of what Erich Honecker was achieving in East Germany..............................

[scuzeme]

dual compound

Dual compound tyres usually have a harder wearing compound towards the centre of the tyre and softer grippier compounds towards the outer edge.
Even "dual compound" tyres need to be warmed up to the correct operating temperature for optimal performance can be achieved.
If they could have come up with a compound that is near 100% optimal throughout the entire temperature range they would have, they would be making millions right now.

They havent becuase the technology isnt there.

[GSVR]

Well all Ive got to say about it is lets ban shock warmers as well, anything that costs money because the world is full of dirty filthy capitalists. Lets make the world boring to a template of what Erich Honecker was achieving in East Germany..............................

Do they use shock warmers in F1?

Freudian Slip . I'm sure you meant tyrewarmers but it does indicate whats on your mind I guess.

The threads gone off topic a bit and no ones attemped to answer my original questions.

I'm all for tyrewarmers for certain classes. But banning them in others and the use of a street rubber (sorry Steve very loose wording) control tyre would add diversity.

Motoracing should appeal to capitalists/socialists/communists etc alike. I would rather be in pit full of socialists as I'm sure the atmoshere would be alot more pleasant. I think you might as well as a pit full of capitalists would be really hard work. Capitalism only seems to work when theres non-capitalists about.

Possibly Bridgestone is upset because their product is always covered up by tyre blankets so they are losing all that advertising. Capitalists. Who knows.

[NZsarge]

Get to the track Gary, don't forget to take your tyre warmers... Good day for it.

[R1madness]

Tyre warmers are for sissys. We never had them until a few years ago and to be honest turn 1 had much less carnage then than it does now..... People think that if they have warmers on they can go 100% from the flag drop. Its just not true, you still need to give the tires a little time to "tack up" after sitting on the grid and start line...
But if you really want a set buy them off me and i will give you a good price..

[Sully60]

Do they use shock warmers in F1?

Freudian Slip . I'm sure you meant tyrewarmers but it does indicate whats on your mind I guess.




He meant what he typed (http://www.reactivesuspension.com/images/accessoriesthumb6.jpg), I don't think Robert's the kind of guy to make Freudian slips.

[Yow Ling]

Motoracing should appeal to capitalists/socialists/communists etc alike. I would rather be in pit full of socialists as I'm sure the atmoshere would be alot more pleasant. I think you might as well as a pit full of capitalists would be really hard work. Capitalism only seems to work when theres non-capitalists about.

Possibly Bridgestone is upset because their product is always covered up by tyre blankets so they are losing all that advertising. Capitalists. Who knows.

Problem is the pit is full of people that are expected to win, you seem to think its all about getting along. ITS ALL ABOUT WINNING. tahts it nothing else. Racing isnt about developing techy little gizmos to make you feel better , its about selling bikes, what wins on Sunday sells on Monday .

[Robert Taylor]

He meant what he typed (http://www.reactivesuspension.com/images/accessoriesthumb6.jpg), I don't think Robert's the kind of guy to make Freudian slips.

Thanks for that, I meant exactly what I typed. Its all about chemistry and physics, at the moment there is no technology for making a race specific tyre that works at all temperatures. Similarly a shock that operates best at 60 degrees celsius is going to be lethargic on a cold frosty Taupo morning when its starting temperature is at ambient.
And heck why do we have multigrade oils? Its also very fortunate that we have capitalism to fund ongoing development.

[Pussy]

I reckon those that want tyre warmers and decent suspension banned..... should look at road racing pushbikes

[Swoop]

How many of the above head out on the road and ride/drive at 85%+ of their vehicles capabilities though? (And straight after they ride/drive off)
I believe our very own skidmark did just that. Then we had the "I've just binned" thread.

[lostinflyz]

Do they use shock warmers in F1?

Freudian Slip . I'm sure you meant tyrewarmers but it does indicate whats on your mind I guess.

The threads gone off topic a bit and no ones attemped to answer my original questions.

I'm all for tyrewarmers for certain classes. But banning them in others and the use of a street rubber (sorry Steve very loose wording) control tyre would add diversity.

Motoracing should appeal to capitalists/socialists/communists etc alike. I would rather be in pit full of socialists as I'm sure the atmoshere would be alot more pleasant. I think you might as well as a pit full of capitalists would be really hard work. Capitalism only seems to work when theres non-capitalists about.

Possibly Bridgestone is upset because their product is always covered up by tyre blankets so they are losing all that advertising. Capitalists. Who knows.

god knows what the use in F1. just an example, they have to pre heat the engine oil before starting the engine as the assembled tolerances and thermal expansion make the engine fundamentaly siezed at standard temperatures.

so should we ban anything that doesn't allow you to rock up at 9am and go ape shit in your f1 car.

bridgestone wanted no warmers because they had been attempting to develop the new slick tyres for no warmers, and didn't like people saying they weren't good enough. i know it was stopped because cars on green (new, cold) tyres would be verrrry slow and the speed differential is not good.

comments like this are what killed off demonic and kick arse race bikes. 250gp maybe meaningless to the road but 2 supersport champs do no better.

[GSVR]

Thanks for that, I meant exactly what I typed. Its all about chemistry and physics, at the moment there is no technology for making a race specific tyre that works at all temperatures. Similarly a shock that operates best at 60 degrees celsius is going to be lethargic on a cold frosty Taupo morning when its starting temperature is at ambient.
And heck why do we have multigrade oils? Its also very fortunate that we have capitalism to fund ongoing development.


I think we have discussed this all before with fork warmers and the fact that forks will operate at ambient temp. So everyones out in the shed now changing their fork oil for the winter series.

Personally I think the writing will be on the wall when the Vic Club bans the use of heated handgrips for their series.

Why not have heated rims that keep the tyres warm for slow riders like myself?
Must say the tyre wamers I had on today worked a treat except the grip level seemed less the more I rode as the tyres cooled down.

[cowpoos]

I think we have discussed this all before with fork warmers and the fact that forks will operate at ambient temp. So everyones out in the shed now changing their fork oil for the winter series.

Personally I think the writing will be on the wall when the Vic Club bans the use of heated handgrips for their series.

Why not have heated rims that keep the tyres warm for slow riders like myself?
Must say the tyre wamers I had on today worked a treat except the grip level seemed less the more I rode as the tyres cooled down.
Personally Gary...I want to know what your trying to acvhieve with all these daft threads lately?? you seem very anti about the improvments in motorcycle technology?? and the Jist I'm getting from you is that you would rather us all be riding honda ct90's completely stock!!

and in all honesty...most of us are racing for the thrill...battling your skills of mind[race craft,setup knowledge,concentration, anilitical ability,etc], body [balance,co-ordination,fitness,perception,etc], soul [drive, heart, afinity for other racers,desire for improvement, DEDICATION ie: working 5 jobs to have what you need]...and being able to be 'THAT PERSON' that on the day has the package to be the fastest person,consistantly at that track in his/hers class...and those people just do what it takes!!

people want to go faster than anyone else...not dumb shit down!!

and one thing I know for certian...whinging doesn't make you faster!!

So whats the deal Gary?? what is really your issuse lately?? because every thread you have started seem to have some under lining meaning...that seems to be just an afront to some Issuse you seem to have. so spit it out!!

[Robert Taylor]

Personally Gary...I want to know what your trying to acvhieve with all these daft threads lately?? you seem very anti about the improvments in motorcycle technology?? and the Jist I'm getting from you is that you would rather us all be riding honda ct90's completely stock!!

and in all honesty...most of us are racing for the thrill...battling your skills of mind[race craft,setup knowledge,concentration, anilitical ability,etc], body [balance,co-ordination,fitness,perception,etc], soul [drive, heart, afinity for other racers,desire for improvement, DEDICATION ie: working 5 jobs to have what you need]...and being able to be 'THAT PERSON' that on the day has the package to be the fastest person,consistantly at that track in his/hers class...and those people just do what it takes!!

people want to go faster than anyone else...not dumb shit down!!

and one thing I know for certian...whinging doesn't make you faster!!

So whats the deal Gary?? what is really your issuse lately?? because every thread you have started seem to have some under lining meaning...that seems to be just an afront to some Issuse you seem to have. so spit it out!!

Yeah its definitely headshake material isnt it Poos!
Id be worried for the sake of sanity if willy warmers were banned, in their absence there would be yet more people typing abject nonsense with their one free hand.

[Shaun]

Yeah its definitely headshake material isnt it Poos!
Id be worried for the sake of sanity if willy warmers were banned, in their absence there would be yet more people typing abject nonsense with their one free hand.
__________________


That was actually funny Robert:gob:

[sinfull]

Yeah its definitely headshake material isnt it Poos!
Id be worried for the sake of sanity if willy warmers were banned, in their absence there would be yet more people typing abject nonsense with their one free hand.
Oi don't even suggest that !! I don't perform well in the cold at all !
Cheers
Willy

[GSVR]

Oi don't even suggest that !! I don't perform well in the cold at all !
Cheers
Willy

Hope your've ordered a shockwarmer for the upcoming winter series. Or your pogo stick will be slow and lethargic.

[j-lo69]

I reckon those that want tyre warmers and decent suspension banned..... should look at road racing pushbikes

good on ya. i fully agree. tyre warmers are needed in nz for the tyres we use. most racers cn get a set of race tyres for the same as street. but why would a racer buy a set of tyres so they can go slower an risk alot more because of the lack of grip. not many people find sliping an sliding around the track alday a good day....... ok some do:yes: a good street tyre is still designed to run at a lower temp than a race so by racing them will only shag them faster, less grip, less fun, cost you more.

[cowpoos]

Hope your've ordered a shockwarmer for the upcoming winter series. Or your pogo stick will be slow and lethargic.
are you going to answer my question Gary??

[GSVR]

Shouldn't tyre manufacturers be developing tyres that grip just was well when cold as when hot. Manufacturers use motoracing to develop and show off products and technologies that eventually make it to the road going vehicles. How many people have tire warmers fitted to their roadbike or car before they go out for a ride or drive.

The use of tyrewarmers is doing nothing for the development of road tyres and the rubber being delevoped has no real world use except for the racetrack. If tyrewarmers where banned and tires had to be fitted at ambient temp the tyres developed would instantly be of benefit for roadusers.

When do you think tyrewarmers may be banned in WSBK for example? It may be sooner than you think! When tyrewarmers are banned in Formula 1 how many years later will the same happen in MotoGP or are the two so completely different that the comparsion is irrelevant.

This is what the threads about. Just because the Right Mr Taylor wants to jump on every thread I start to push his barrow and post crap doesn't mean I have to respond. Same goes for you Poos piss off and start your own thread. Don't expect me to answer your questions if you haven't even read the thread and attempted to answer its questions.
As I've said before if you think a thread is "daft" don't post on it and it will die a natural death.

F1 was interesting again in the wet with a Redbull 1 2.

[svr]

I reckon those that want tyre warmers and decent suspension banned..... should look at road racing pushbikes

I do that too, and can tell you that pushbike racing has all sorts of technical rules and bans to keep it `about the rider' - which really where Garry is coming from and to my mind an entirely valid `ridercentrist' position to take - at least as valid as its opposite - the technocentrist position. Like every ideological slant however every case should still be evaluated on merit.
Not sure how many people posting here raced pre and post tyre-warmers but I'd say that overall from a riders viewpoint I think tyre warmers are (generally) worth the expense, hassle (and maybe event the constant generator noise that has ruined the pit atmosphere). But a ban may suit specific classes e.g. the mooted nakedbike class or pro-twins?

[GSVR]

I do that too, and can tell you that pushbike racing has all sorts of technical rules and bans to keep it `about the rider' - which really where Garry is coming from and to my mind an entirely valid `ridercentrist' position to take - at least as valid as its opposite - the technocentrist position. Like every ideological slant however every case should still be evaluated on merit.
Not sure how many people posting here raced pre and post tyre-warmers but I'd say that overall from a riders viewpoint I think tyre warmers are (generally) worth the expense, hassle (and maybe event the constant generator noise that has ruined the pit atmosphere). But a ban may suit specific classes e.g. the mooted nakedbike class or pro-twins?

Are you allowed tyre warmers in Streetstock? I'm all for them in Superbike and Supersport

[Str8 Jacket]

Are you allowed tyre warmers in Streetstock?

I gather you are talking Streetstock 150?
If so then VMCC supplementary rules do not allow us to use tyre warmers, however down south they are allowed too. I dont actually care either way... Dunlop TT's FTW!

[svr]

and in all honesty...most of us are racing for the thrill...battling your skills of mind[race craft,setup knowledge,concentration, anilitical ability,etc], body [balance,co-ordination,fitness,perception,etc], soul [drive, heart, afinity for other racers,desire for improvement, DEDICATION ie: working 5 jobs to have what you need]...and being able to be 'THAT PERSON' that on the day has the package to be the fastest person,consistantly at that track in his/hers class...and those people just do what it takes!!

people want to go faster than anyone else...not dumb shit down!!

and one thing I know for certian...whinging doesn't make you faster!!

So whats the deal Gary?? what is really your issuse lately?? because every thread you have started seem to have some under lining meaning...that seems to be just an afront to some Issuse you seem to have. so spit it out!!

So, say, running, as a sport, would be enhanced if everyone was allowed titanium spring shoe technology that required 5 jobs to purchase and maintain and a squad of technicians to service? No-one would take it up until 35 yrs old, the talent and level would be mediocre, the handful of people who had sacrificed education, travel, families education etc., to do it (& the spring technicians/salesmen) would declare that it was `worth it'. Sound like a sport we know?

[Kevin G]

I gather you are talking Streetstock 150?
If so then VMCC supplementary rules do not allow us to use tyre warmers, however down south they are allowed too. I dont actually care either way... Dunlop TT's FTW!

Tyre warmers are banned in streetstock class according to the MNZ rules for streetstock. They are not used "down south".

I remember when tyre warmers were just a dream of most NZ racers, (wind back the clock) in 250 proddie it was a test of bravery (or skill) who could go the fastest on cold rubber, it certainly added another element to racing but usually ended up in massive pile ups with pepole pushing too hard on cold rubber.

They are available and inexpensive and if it makes racing safer then why ditch them?

[Benk]

They are available and inexpensive and if it makes racing safer then why ditch them?

Dont be bloody stupid. What the hell would we mass debate (fucking clever I know) about on KB.

He who moots the most points wins!

:wari:

[Str8 Jacket]

Tyre warmers are banned in streetstock class according to the MNZ rules for streetstock. They are not used "down south".



Interesting, not what we have been told.... did the rules change this year or something cause I am pretty sure that tyre warmers were allowed for streetstock's by MNZ however supplementary rules from (VMCC) disallowed this. The reason I say that there was ALOT of confusion around tyre warmers and streetstock bikes last year in Vic Club and this is what I was told by a few people.

I am OK with being wrong though... :yes:

[cowpoos]

This is what the threads about. Just because the Right Mr Taylor wants to jump on every thread I start to push his barrow and post crap doesn't mean I have to respond. Same goes for you Poos piss off and start your own thread. Don't expect me to answer your questions if you haven't even read the thread and attempted to answer its questions.
As I've said before if you think a thread is "daft" don't post on it and it will die a natural death.


Yes I did read your thread...and my questioning was direct...because I'm not a beating around the bush type of person. and in all honesty its obvious by not responding that I have hit a nerve.
and in all honesty maybe you are right...maybe I should ignore your petty little games that you have been playing of late on here. But the thing is...people who don't understand or lack the knowledge in the area's you have been discussing will easily be lead astray by your postings...
aswell as I and many many people on here find your constant attacks on Robert Taylor and others in the industry, totally distasteful and pathetic...it speaks volumes about Roberts character that he persists with educating people [and trying tirelessly in your case] on this website, despite constant attacks on his intentions, character and credentials...honestly Gary if Craig Shirriffs showed you a line around a corner...would you question the need to ride that line, compared with the line that a 100 other riders with no credentials at all were using??
You just wouldn't...then why hammer Roberts expertise all the time?
I can understand you taking the Piss out of his sense of humour at times..winding him up about his political views..but the help he gives to all in this forum is appreciated and warmly received by the majority..he is a expert in his field...and I would far rather a Expert sold me a suspension unit than a salesman with a big mouth, thats full of big promises and nothing else.

So stop making a dick of yourself.

next point...my original post was genuine. I am really curious to know why your challenging years of expertise in motorcycle technology??
If your planning to come up with an innovative idea in some area...knock yourself out!!
But the Jist of what you keep talking about...always relates back to dumbing down motor racing?? seriously...if we wanted to step backwards we would just go race classics wouldn't we???



So, say, running, as a sport, would be enhanced if everyone was allowed titanium spring shoe technology that required 5 jobs to purchase and maintain and a squad of technicians to service? No-one would take it up until 35 yrs old, the talent and level would be mediocre, the handful of people who had sacrificed education, travel, families education etc., to do it (& the spring technicians/salesmen) would declare that it was `worth it'. Sound like a sport we know?

interesting analogy...hmmm
Problem with our sport isn't really numbers...club grids are full all the time.
Problem is fulling the superbike grid at national level..maybe a few more in the other classes won't hurt either...but they weren't really an issue.

back to your analogy...motorsport is expensive...you might just have to get over it!! race what ever ya want...in what ever class ya fit in...if you want,desire to win...you will work out a way to get better equipment.

[Tony.OK]

So, say, running, as a sport, would be enhanced if everyone was allowed titanium spring shoe technology that required 5 jobs to purchase and maintain and a squad of technicians to service? No-one would take it up until 35 yrs old, the talent and level would be mediocre, the handful of people who had sacrificed education, travel, families education etc., to do it (& the spring technicians/salesmen) would declare that it was `worth it'. Sound like a sport we know?

I hardly think the price of warmers is going to have people working 5 jobs, they are relatively cheap now, no more than a set of tyres.
And for the sake of piece of mind in traction of the line, a set can save major costs in repairs............................and taking it up at 35 and being mediocre........well that just hurt my feelings:crybaby:

There was a very good article a while back in the pommy Superbike mag about tyre warmers, they tested them on road bikes before a normal street ride on normal street tyres.
Turned out that they ran hotter for the 1st 2 kms then the tyres cooled down to their nominal operating temp, and when no warmers were used the tyres reached the same nominal temp in 2km or so.
So for anything less than spirited road riding there was no need for them really.
I'd say that if the big companies could come up with something they would, you've only got to go back 10 years to see the difference in technology..................eg: they now add silica to tyres, a definate feed down from MotoGP etc.
I would be guessing the scientists are probably already searching for what you ask for Gary, just for a bike theres alot more at stake than a car on cold tyres spinning out.

[Kevin G]

Interesting, not what we have been told.... did the rules change this year or something cause I am pretty sure that tyre warmers were allowed for streetstock's by MNZ however supplementary rules from (VMCC) disallowed this. The reason I say that there was ALOT of confusion around tyre warmers and streetstock bikes last year in Vic Club and this is what I was told by a few people.

I am OK with being wrong though... :yes:

Just as well....rule 22-12-10 paragraph 3

http://www.motorcyclingnz.co.nz/download/Chapter_22_Road_Racing.pdf

[GSVR]

and in all honesty...most of us are racing for the thrill...battling your skills of mind[race craft,setup knowledge,concentration, anilitical ability,etc], body [balance,co-ordination,fitness,perception,etc], soul [drive, heart, afinity for other racers,desire for improvement, DEDICATION ie: working 5 jobs to have what you need]...and being able to be 'THAT PERSON' that on the day has the package to be the fastest person,consistantly at that track in his/hers class...and those people just do what it takes!!



Thats really funny. Just for Tony Ok. I wonder if Cowpoos had tyrewarmers when he cartwheeled his bike in the scrub session 3 years ago. I don't think he's ever recovered from that one!

[GSVR]

Just as well....rule 22-12-10 paragraph 3

http://www.motorcyclingnz.co.nz/download/Chapter_22_Road_Racing.pdf

Well that explains all the Streetstock carnage into turn one.

[Billy]

Well that explains all the Streetstock carnage into turn one.

Where and when???

[GSVR]

Where and when???

Sarcasm is not whats its cracked up to be. Streetstocks are not fast enough to need warm tyres and you can't squeeze the brakes hard enough to lock the front up. Plus the riders are better at coping with slides.

[Sully60]

Sarcasm is not whats its cracked up to be. Streetstocks are not fast enough to need warm tyres and you can't squeeze the brakes hard enough to lock the front up. Plus the riders are better at coping with slides.

Raced a lot of streetstock have ya?
Cold wet mornings at the old Taupo track were fun I can tell you!

[GSVR]

Raced a lot of streetstock have ya?
Cold wet mornings at the old Taupo track were fun I can tell you!

Had a couple of Suzuki X5's does that count?

So do you think possibly letting Streetstocks run wets and tyrewarmers would be a positive move for the sport? Maybe just for winter racing.

[Str8 Jacket]

Just as well....rule 22-12-10 paragraph 3

http://www.motorcyclingnz.co.nz/download/Chapter_22_Road_Racing.pdf

lol! Anyway, I do believe my original point was that we dont use tyre warmers at VMCC and dont need to. ;)

[svr]

honestly Gary if Craig Shirriffs showed you a line around a corner...would you question the need to ride that line, compared with the line that a 100 other riders with no credentials at all were using??
You just wouldn't...then why hammer Roberts expertise all the time?


Actually RTs technical expertise is never `hammered' - or even questioned - on this website. On the contrary it is gratefully appreciated - even by those who disagree with his ideological slant on motorcycle racing.

[Sully60]

Had a couple of Suzuki X5's does that count?

So do you think possibly letting Streetstocks run wets and tyrewarmers would be a positive move for the sport? Maybe just for winter racing.

No I don't, I was just questioning your experience of racing streetstock.

I learned my basic craft racing 150s but the then very strict rules limited my knowledge. No suspension adjustment, no gearing changes, control tyres and stock everything (not quite like today;)) meant that after two seasons I felt the need to move on. That's fine it is an entry level class.
Are you inferreing that all classes should be so confined and therefore limit the potential for development both for the rider and machine?

[svr]

Cold wet mornings at the old Taupo track were fun I can tell you!

Frosty mid-winter mornings were good too. No qualifying either so the `warmup' lap was a race for pole position which required skill, experience and large stones.
A lost `art' that - riders have been dumbed down by tyre warmer and lap timer technology :rockon:.

[Kevin G]

Had a couple of Suzuki X5's does that count?

So do you think possibly letting Streetstocks run wets and tyrewarmers would be a positive move for the sport? Maybe just for winter racing.

Hi.
Actually they can already use full race wets.

[Str8 Jacket]

Hi.
Actually they can already use full race wets.

AHHH, that's what I was actually thinking about, DUH!! VMCC do not allow the use of wets in Streetstock! But you guy's can! :wari:

[GSVR]

No I don't, I was just questioning your experience of racing streetstock.

I learned my basic craft racing 150s but the then very strict rules limited my knowledge. No suspension adjustment, no gearing changes, control tyres and stock everything (not quite like today;)) meant that after two seasons I felt the need to move on. That's fine it is an entry level class.
Are you inferreing that all classes should be so confined and therefore limit the potential for development both for the rider and machine?

Everyone thats done a trackday on their roadbike should have an appreciation of what streetstocks about. Its a great class. Some move on to 125GP after getting the basics others F3 etc.

Winter racing throws up many challenges to riders. Having looked at the level of preparation for ProTwin riders for example there are only a handful that are fully equiped with everything the rules allow. The most common thing I see is guys that don't have a spare set of rims with wets. So if it rains they are going to be very much off the pace.

If the class was run with nominated control street tyres this would drop the cost of being fully equiped by over $2000 dollars at current market values for rims and wet weather tyres. Can you see what I'm getting at?

The cost of running a streetstock is minimal but when a young rider moves up they have limited options if they want to be competitive within the class they choose. Its not about shafting the the tyre suppliers or suspension people as they will always have a market in the more serious level of competition classes. Its about having more classes that appeal to up and coming riders that wont appeal to more experienced riders that would drop down a class not becuase its cheaper but because its less competitive and easier to win.

[Str8 Jacket]

The cost of running a streetstock is minimal but when a young rider moves up they have limited options if they want to be competitive within the class they choose.

Well, I am not young but I have every intention of moving to pro-twins next year for that reason. I am hoping that the rules are not changed too much to allow me to afford it. I like the thought of riding against a rider not the money. Not that I am dissing those that are that commited to racing, I respect that everyone wants different things from racing! :yes:

Oh yeah, just in case you missed it, we cannot use wets at VMCC race days in SS but it causes no huge issues TBH...

[svr]

I respect that everyone wants different things from racing! :yes:


Aint that the truth. We should all probably chant that 5 times before posting!

[Str8 Jacket]

Aint that the truth. We should all probably chant that 5 times before posting!

Or just toke... ;)

[cowpoos]

Everyone thats done a trackday on their roadbike should have an appreciation of what streetstocks about.



what...that I can screw a brand new tyre in one session on a bog stock gsxr750??? because all the bike wants to do is wheelspin???

you can't be serious??




Having looked at the level of preparation for ProTwin riders The most common thing I see is guys that don't have a spare set of rims with wets. So if it rains they are going to be very much off the pace.



So just like everyone else in every other class who doesn't have spare rims...we change our tyres.




If the class was run with nominated control street tyres this would drop the cost of being fully equiped by over $2000 dollars at current market values for rims and wet weather tyres. Can you see what I'm getting at?

No I don't get you...not at all...you don't need spare rims?? set of tyre levers = $40

and if you want to run road tyres go for your life...but slicks and supersport tyres cost pretty much the same...and road tyres can't handle track riding..they over heat and just become unpredictable.





A lost `art' that - riders have been dumbed down by tyre warmer and lap timer technology :rockon:.

I'd rather not rip up a new or good tyre...I would rather people were allowed to spend $600 on a set of tyre warmers that will save a massive cost in tyres over many years.

I put a canyon in the right side [manfield] of a brand new SC2 [hard compound] slick in the first session of the day [supersport qualifying] at a race meeting...because I put the wets on the night before...I changed them over in the morning because the weather cleared off...rear tyre didn't make it on the warmers. which was in all honesty partly my fault..as it was a bit damp...and I did have a bit of a play lighting up the rear out of a few corners because it was fun. but had it been racing...I would have killed it much much faster. and riders are not dumbed down by any stretch of the imagination...look at power to weight ratios change on machines over the years...

and to be frank...has either of you raced a powerful bike??? and no a sv650 is not powerful...its almost a scooter these days!

[svr]

and riders are not dumbed down by any stretch of the imagination...look at power to weight ratios change on machines over the years...


I was (obviously I thought) just being facetious to make a point

[cowpoos]

I was (obviously I thought) just being facetious to make a point
hmmm...fair enough. lol

[svr]

and to be frank...has either of you raced a powerful bike??? and no a sv650 is not powerful...its almost a scooter these days!

And jeez my scooter nearly goes around racetracks as fast as your incredibly powerful bike! :woohoo:

[GSVR]

The way I see the tyre situation is NZ is a top rider or team will come to an arrangement with a supplier to get heavily discounted tyres. The supplier would see this as a good investment as they get good exposure and when others see the brand having success on the track tend to buy that product. This is good for the top riders but the privateer without connections pays full retail so his operational costs for the season is far greater.

Perhaps a smarter/fairer way would be for MNZ to strike a deal with a supplier to sponsor a raceclass and supply every racer in that class with discounted control tyres. EG "The Pirelli ProTwins". This would mean the supplier gets its logo all over the bikes as well as other items like advertising in race programs.

The same could happen with a suspension supplier to offer the same shock or support package to every racer in a class. I can't see this happenning anytime soon as the sport probably needs a bit of restructuring and building up as there is alot of uncertainty and low confidence at the moment.

I'm sure the tyre people have prefernces on what they would want to promote etc so it would be interesting to see what they think of this idea.

For everyones information this is not my idea but I thought it sounded quite reasonable.



and to be frank...has either of you raced a powerful bike??? and no a sv650 is not powerful...its almost a scooter these days!

Powerful bikes with Shinkos!

You were close on the SV650 its not a Scooter its a Commuter. The oracle told me.
But thats a good thing as they are very easy on tyres. Piece of piss to ride even in standard form and can be improved out of sight by spending sweet FA

[GSVR]

And jeez my scooter nearly goes around racetracks as fast as your incredibly powerful bike! :woohoo:

WTF is Poos faster than you?

[Sully60]

If the class was run with nominated control street tyres this would drop the cost of being fully equiped by over $2000 dollars at current market values for rims and wet weather tyres. Can you see what I'm getting at?



So banning tyre warmers helps how?
I get the point of making the whole gig cheaper for those of us who don't earn 100k+ a year but I don't see how banning warmers contributes to this.
They're a one off cost, they apply to more than one class of machine so can be used throughout an entire racing career and they allow a set of tyres (at least on lower horsepower categories as you refer to) to last a lot longer, therefore reducing costs.

What am I missing here?:crazy:

[GSVR]

So banning tyre warmers helps how?
I get the point of making the whole gig cheaper for those of us who don't earn 100k+ a year but I don't see how banning warmers contributes to this.
They're a one off cost, they apply to more than one class of machine so can be used throughout an entire racing career and they allow a set of tyres (at least on lower horsepower categories as you refer to) to last a lot longer, therefore reducing costs.

What am I missing here?:crazy:

Yeap go back to Post #1. The thread was started about the banning of Tyrewarmers in F1 MotoGP and WSBK. I've even added some of my own answers as everyone wanted to talk about the current situation in NZ .

Read through and you will see it wasn't me who took the thread onto this path. It was just intended to be a discussion on current trends and how they might effect top level motorcycle racing and when.

[Robert Taylor]

Frosty mid-winter mornings were good too. No qualifying either so the `warmup' lap was a race for pole position which required skill, experience and large stones.
A lost `art' that - riders have been dumbed down by tyre warmer and lap timer technology :rockon:.

That is complete and utter bollocks. They are going faster beacuse they can go faster straight away.
My point about shockwarmers was also about the shock being up to temperature ( approx 60 degrees celsius ) so that the rear end wasnt lethargic for the first 2, 3 or 4 laps. Thats called thinking about it in a way thats going to make you faster. In a similiar vein front forks run at ambient or even slightly below so we find an oil that has very stable and responsive flow characteristics from 0 degrees celsius upwards. That happens to have been Ohlins oil because they make thousands of snowmobile shocks so are therefore very attentive to low temp flow characteristics. But I would say that because Im biased..
BTW I dont sell shock warmers and I havent found one yet that is as effective as it should be.
In NZ V8s I know of at least one team that pre-refigerates its shocks because the things overheat so readily.
You cannot over-regulate people coming up with inventive solutions

[svr]

hmmm...fair enough. lol

Not bollocks, funny.