No License

[vgcspares]

man on brand new 800cc+ black bike dressed in black but with dayglo vest for safety ... and no bike license

wonder what the "lock up all the alchos and she'll be right" brigade will think of that ?

[cowpoos]

man on brand new 800cc+ black bike dressed in black but with dayglo vest for safety ... and no bike license

wonder what the "lock up all the alchos and she'll be right" brigade will think of that ?
so...errr....what you talkin bout willis???

[Burtha]

is you talking about "a friend of yours" ?

[TOTO]

vgcspares must be working for the police department and they must have been "destroying" heavy duty drugs all night by the sound of it.

[klingon]

There are a surprising number (well surprising to me anyway) of people riding around on big bikes, without licences.

Back in the day, licences were issued by local authorities (like the Mt Albert Borough Council for example). In the mid-'80s there was a major restructuring, all those small boroughs ceased to exist, and licence records were lost by the hundreds. So now large numbers of people who used to ride in the '80s or earlier decide they will get a bike, but discover they have to go through the whole process again. They say, "bugger it! I'm not going to get a 250cc bike and a learner's permit!" So they don't. They just buy a big bike and ride it.

I know plenty of people like that, and for every one I know of there must be dozens of others. Not unusual at all.

[sinfull]

When i ended up with the two triples i thought bugger it i'll insure them both fully so i can chuck one at a mate or three who might be into a ride on sommit late model, rather than thumpin round on their Nortons and Trumpies ! To date i have found one out of prolly ten who have a licence, but all still ride !

[MIXONE]

When i ended up with the two triples i thought bugger it i'll insure them both fully so i can chuck one at a mate or three who might be into a ride on sommit late model, rather than thumpin round on their Nortons and Trumpies ! To date i have found one out of prolly ten who have a licence, but all still ride !

I've got my licence so any time you need the battery recharged on the spare bike just yell out.

[Duc]

It wont take long before they are found out... one way or the other.

I have had three licence checks at Check Points this year.

[sinfull]

I've got my licence so any time you need the battery recharged on the spare bike just yell out.

That didn't take ya long lol !
After giving up on them all i committed them both to track (changed one back to road now, to try and trade it, but given up on that now too bloody rougues) Was quite surprized to find the 955 battery started the bike last week after sitting for a couple of months !

[vgcspares]

I think I'm right in saying the cops can only impound a bike if teh rider is found not to have a license or to be disqualified ... maybe that's the ultimate sanction

what had me confused was the dayglo jacket - why worry about being seen if your more likely to cause an accident yourself (cos your skillsbase in zero) ?

and no I'm not with the fuzz

[sunhuntin]

their skills dont have to be nil just cos they have no license. heck, theyve probably got more skills than many l platers out there.

a mate of mine had a harley, and i used to spend hours cleaning it [before i got my own bike] i rode with him on a number of occasions, and he didnt have a license either. but, he was a much better rider than others ive pillioned with who had their full licenses.

[jafar]

man on brand new 800cc+ black bike dressed in black but with dayglo vest for safety ... and no bike license

wonder what the "lock up all the alchos and she'll be right" brigade will think of that ?


I think I'm right in saying the cops can only impound a bike if teh rider is found not to have a license or to be disqualified ... maybe that's the ultimate sanction

what had me confused was the dayglo jacket - why worry about being seen if your more likely to cause an accident yourself (cos your skillsbase in zero) ?

and no I'm not with the fuzz

This thread is useless without pictures:woohoo:

There are lots of people out there without any kind of licence driving or riding every day & have done for years. They don't get stopped & never endanger anyone either. :sweatdrop

[SMOKEU]

It's easy to get away with it, I used to ride my CG125 around all the time with just a 1F and I never got pulled over.

[vgcspares]

This thread is useless without pictures:woohoo:

There are lots of people out there without any kind of licence driving or riding every day & have done for years. They don't get stopped & never endanger anyone either. :sweatdrop

tend to disagree with you on that one - we get more than the odd claim arising from some dork riding without the skillset

and yes, there is definitely a correlation between not bothering to take the training required to pass a basic license test and skills demonstrated by these lazy cynical useless riders

[Taz]

Just a piece of paper mate (well a plastic card thingy now I hear?)

[davebullet]

I'm about to sit my full license - which does not prove my ability to ride anything greater than a 250cc... yet I can go buy a 2.3L Rocket and ride it legally (and unsafely). There is no sense in that.

[short-circuit]

I'm about to sit my full license - which does not prove my ability to ride anything greater than a 250cc... yet I can go buy a 2.3L Rocket and ride it legally (and unsafely). There is no sense in that.

I'm telling mum on you if you've been riding that 650 of yours. But yeah the Rocket III would be a decent step up bike :niceone:

[Genestho]

man on brand new 800cc+ black bike dressed in black but with dayglo vest for safety ... and no bike license

wonder what the "lock up all the alchos and she'll be right" brigade will think of that ?

Oh my, nice to see B.A.D.D is still in your thoughts...:innocent:

Lol. You are misguided on "the brigade", and you cannot speak on behalf of the "brigade".

Go to my website and have a catchup dude.
It's ok with you, if I encourage awareness of the possible consequences of drinking and then driving, support youth education and find solutions isn't it? Considering I've been directly involved?
I sincerely hope I have't offended you by doing so, I didnt exactly pick the situation, but I don't have to defend my choice of outcome!!!!

I have never said "lockup alchos" and she'll be right, I have also acknowledged there is 70% of other factors that cause crashes and fatalities.

This thread, since you initiated it... and Kb'ers, might benefit from your knowledge in no licensing claims....you never know who you might help.


So I say.... Instead of taking an attempted swipe at people like myself, trying to do good things, that you may - or may not agree with, I'd request you to....

"Show us ya stats" Big Boy :gob: Get to the point of why you started the Thread....

[Swoop]

They say, "bugger it! I'm not going to get a 250cc bike and a learner's permit!" So they don't. They just buy a big bike and ride it.

I know plenty of people like that, and for every one I know of there must be dozens of others. Not unusual at all.
Also, very little chance of being caught unless an accident or a checkpoint appears... once again, a remote chance.

Iwhat had me confused was the dayglo jacket - why worry about being seen?
The best camoflage.
Others do not take any notice of "hi-viz" jackets now, since every man and his dog wear the bloody things.
The best place to hide an elephant is with a bunch of other elephants...

[jafar]

tend to disagree with you on that one - we get more than the odd claim arising from some dork riding without the skillset

and yes, there is definitely a correlation between not bothering to take the training required to pass a basic license test and skills demonstrated by these lazy cynical useless riders

Your talking from an insurance claim point of view and are making the basic mistake of thinking that a licence gives someone a skillset, it doesn't. :Oops:

There are lots of riders out there with no licence that have excellent skills.
Ex moto riders for example , or riders that had licence's before the gibberment changed the rules & who's records have been lost. The skills are there but the bits of paper are not.
Then there are also the ones that have no licence because they lost it, still have the skills they had ( or didn't have ) before.
Some are just plain arrogant & can't be bothered with going to get a licence, others simply can't afford it.:yes:

Then we get the ones that are just too stupid to get a licence ( the ones your talking about ), they are often easy to spot as they wear slipon shoes cos tying the laces is too hard, dirty t-shirts cos a washing machine is difficult to operate & jeans that hang down past their arse crack cos the concept of a belt is beyond them & braces are what you wear on your teeth.

[klingon]

tend to disagree with you on that one - we get more than the odd claim arising from some dork riding without the skillset

and yes, there is definitely a correlation between not bothering to take the training required to pass a basic license test and skills demonstrated by these lazy cynical useless riders

There are (at least) two completely different categories of people riding without licences:

1) Inexperienced, never held a licence, not interested in learning the basic skills

2) Experienced (even if it's a long time ago) had a licence at some point but object to doing it all over again.

I would suggest that the older buell rider with the reflective vest is highly likely to fall into the second category.

And remember, it's perfectly legal to ride a 49cc scooter with no licence and no warrant! :gob:

[Mikkel]

Well, not having a license means you can't get insurance for starters. I have my own strong opinion on the matter of riding without insurance...

Also, the cops aren't likely to impound your bike just because you haven't got the correct license - not the first time they pull you over at least. Second time, who knows? Would seem unreasonable not to impound someone who didn't have the license in the first place if you're willing to impound someone who's been a little bit naughty but actually has the endorsement.

[vgcspares]

this thread has (or at least had) got naff all to do with insurance, claims, drink driving or anything else but the complete idiocy of admitting you don't have the skills (which the person concerned did) having already gone out and bought a brand new bike bike

the one track record brigade jumped in as I knew they would but where is everyone coming from who thinks the above is defensible from any grown up standpoint ?

and while statistically its hard to prove that having a bit of plastic makes you a better rider, it might be worth remembering the oft mentioned belief that those in the car fraternity who didn't take any training and bought their licenses can't on average drive as well as those that did .. or is that just too much like common sense

[Headbanger]

The difference between a wanker and a non-wanker is not whether or not they have a little piece of plastic from the Government.

Was this person being a wanker?, if not then wtf has it got to do with you if he chooses to ride?

[sunhuntin]

actually, theres plenty of wankers around that do have the bit of paper as well. look at all the scooter chicks wearing next to nothing, yet hold a license.

but i fully agree on your second point... unless someones acting like a cock, whats the problem?

[McJim]

Your talking from an insurance claim point of view and are making the basic mistake of thinking that a licence gives someone a skillset, it doesn't. :Oops:

There are lots of riders out there with no licence that have excellent skills.
Ex moto riders for example , or riders that had licence's before the gibberment changed the rules & who's records have been lost. The skills are there but the bits of paper are not.
Then there are also the ones that have no licence because they lost it, still have the skills they had ( or didn't have ) before.
Some are just plain arrogant & can't be bothered with going to get a licence, others simply can't afford it.:yes:

Then we get the ones that are just too stupid to get a licence ( the ones your talking about ), they are often easy to spot as they wear slipon shoes cos tying the laces is too hard, dirty t-shirts cos a washing machine is difficult to operate & jeans that hang down past their arse crack cos the concept of a belt is beyond them & braces are what you wear on your teeth.

You forgot people like me with a full licence and zero skillz - I only got it coz the NZ gubbernmint is to generous to make it difficult to pass the full licence test.

I would never have got a bike licence back in blighty. I'm a complete fuckwit and would get completely owned by the likes of Carver and Skidmark. They are the true biker gods.

[_STAIN_]

Just a piece of paper mate (well a plastic card thingy now I hear?)

yip and I have never known a bike to be any slower without one

[Blackshear]

My neighbour has ahd his Harley for maybe 3 years now. Asked to borrow my bike for an hour to sit his full.
'Just don't wring her cold neck or break her.'

Found 3 12 packs of bourbon on my doorstep the next morning.

I still wonder what made him take his full after that long without one.

[Gummie]

Had a couple of guys wanting a trailer today. Worked out one had either learners or restricted. He had sold his 250 and has bought a 750.
His comments on this was along the lines of that the cops cant catch a bike.
Early 20s and they think that because they have a bigger bike they will just out run the cops and they have the experience to do this.:gob:
I would put my opinion on this.

[Genestho]

Originally Posted by vgcspares
man on brand new 800cc+ black bike dressed in black but with dayglo vest for safety ... and no bike license

wonder what the "lock up all the alchos and she'll be right" brigade will think of that ?



"the one track record brigade jumped in as I knew they would"

Oh I see...... Interesting, well, knock me down with a feather...I hear you should never feed the trolls :bash:

I don't know what your problem is, with my organisation mate.
I'm not bothered if you disagree.;)

FYI.
Here's a little headsup.....usually people chitchat using a polite and respectful manner, as we humans are quite capable of, regardless of what you believe in.
Don't waste my time with your bollocks dude.
It's completely unnessacary. Life is short. Is that common sense?
I'm done...As you were....

[short-circuit]

Originally Posted by vgcspares
man on brand new 800cc+ black bike dressed in black but with dayglo vest for safety ... and no bike license

wonder what the "lock up all the alchos and she'll be right" brigade will think of that ?



"the one track record brigade jumped in as I knew they would"

Oh I see...... Interesting, well, knock me down with a feather...I hear you should never feed the trolls :bash:

I don't know what your problem is, with my organisation mate.
I'm not bothered if you disagree.;)

FYI.
Here's a little headsup.....usually people chitchat using a polite and respectful manner, as we humans are quite capable of, regardless of what you believe in.
Don't waste my time with your bollocks dude.
It's completely unnessacary. Life is short. Is that common sense?
I'm done...As you were....

Are you alright there Love?

[Genestho]

Are you alright there Love?

Never been better my friend ;)

[tri boy]

look at all the scooter chicks wearing next to nothing,

I used to,but kanny kept slapping me.:spanking:
Still look when I can though.;)

[sunhuntin]

I used to,but kanny kept slapping me.:spanking:
Still look when I can though.;)

lmfao... you shoulda hung around my bp when i was there... 3pm, monday to friday. ill never forget the girl who came in early sunday morning wearing a singlet, pj bottoms and fluffy red elmo slippers. and it was the middle of bloody winter :cold:

[Taz]

and fluffy red elmo slippers. and it was the middle of bloody winter :cold:

Mmmmmm Elmo slippers......:love:

[scrivy]

Well I'm a munter with no commonsense, have a licence, and I support the 'brigade'....
I'm doomed now...............

[carver]

You forgot people like me with a full licence and zero skillz - I only got it coz the NZ gubbernmint is to generous to make it difficult to pass the full licence test.

I would never have got a bike licence back in blighty. I'm a complete fuckwit and would get completely owned by the likes of Carver and Skidmark. They are the true biker gods.

thanks you, we are now in our rightfull place

[MaxB]

Don't know if the following translates directly but it is close enough.

A mate of mine is a builder and he bought a jap import mini truck. While on a job he knocked over a wall of the house opposite the job site. It all got a bit heated and the cops showed up. Turns out they had no record of him having the correct licence and the truck was over the weight for a car licence.

To cut things short he got reamed 'cos there were a few things wrong with the truck as well.

I guess if you ride without a licence sooner or later you will get into a situation where you gonna get fucked over whether you can ride or not.

[Patch]

blah blah blah


Are you alright there Love?
think someone needs a bit more than a cuddle . . . .

[MarkH]

Don't know if the following translates directly but it is close enough.

A mate of mine is a builder and he bought a jap import mini truck. While on a job he knocked over a wall of the house opposite the job site. It all got a bit heated and the cops showed up. Turns out they had no record of him having the correct licence and the truck was over the weight for a car licence.

To cut things short he got reamed 'cos there were a few things wrong with the truck as well.

I guess if you ride without a licence sooner or later you will get into a situation where you gonna get fucked over whether you can ride or not.

Yeah, get your license in case you knock a wall over one day! Er, was that what the message was?

But yeah, no license is fine until you get pulled over for something and the copper says "license!" and you say "ummmm" and it all goes downhill from there.

[Genestho]

Er, sorry Patch you're really not my type....

However :sunny: Congrats on being the first, in my time at KB to make it into my ignore bin! :first:

Vgspares, if you had bothered to ask what I thought of the message you're trying to send, using courtesy

Here's what I would've answered..

According to Motorcycling stats over at Transport.govt.nz ... (http://www.transport.govt.nz/assets/NewPDFs/Motorcycle-Crash-Factsheet.pdf)
In 2003 - 2007 23% of Motorcyclist Fatalities involved alcohol/drugs

3% of Motorcycle Fatalities were unlicensed......

45% of all Motorcycling fatalities involved travelling too fast for the conditions, or alcohol/drugs

These are not stats I personally look at, I'm just trying to assist you to illustrate your point...

I apologise to the BADD supporters, I'm afraid I don't take a knock to the people I represent, or my organisation lightly:Oops::innocent:

[Metalor]

Hang on, what happened to the non-liscenced people being fuckwits? I'm confused.

I don't give a shit, if they have an accident or get caught, they have to deal it. As long as they're not hurting anyone in the process who really cares?

[sparky.scott]

if they have an accident or get caught, they have to deal it. As long as they're not hurting anyone in the process who really cares?

I completly agree with this as im buying a bigger bike myself in a couple weeks :wari: (7 months away from being able to get my full:whocares:)

[short-circuit]

I completly agree with this as im buying a bigger bike myself in a couple weeks :wari: (7 months away from being able to get my full:whocares:)

Meatalor cared very much when he got done. Had a real cry. See:
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=97745

[Metalor]

Of course I cared that I got done, it affected me!

[Headbanger]

Hang on, what happened to the non-liscenced people being fuckwits? I'm confused.

I don't give a shit, if they have an accident or get caught, they have to deal it. As long as they're not hurting anyone in the process who really cares?

As far as I'm concerned its up to the person involved to judge if the risk is worth it, I'm not a cop, I don't care. Kind of pathetic to rage against the cops for doing their job if you do get get caught.

[MaxB]

snip

Here's what I would've answered..

According to Motorcycling stats over at Transport.govt.nz ... (http://www.transport.govt.nz/assets/NewPDFs/Motorcycle-Crash-Factsheet.pdf)
In 2003 - 2007 23% of Motorcyclist Fatalities involved alcohol/drugs

3% of Motorcycle Fatalities were unlicensed......

45% of all Motorcycling fatalities involved travelling too fast for the conditions, or alcohol/drugs



There are a few holes in the stats in those reports. The Govt. has very selective vision esp. the previous one. The problem is the conclusions drawn from the figures are not obtained from an impartial source. The unlicensed category does not included lapsed learners or car licence holders riding etc. That is a 'wrong licence class'.

The stats also do not include 'illegal' riders that crash and flee the scene. It seems like the non/wrong licenced have fewer accidents. It is more likely that these go unreported.

The other thing is that the LTSA deliberatley mislead the public into thinking that 'too fast for the conditions' means 'exceeding the posted limit', where like all other western countries less than 10% of fatalities are from users over the speed limit and yet a huge amount of resources are devoted to stopping speeders.

If what happens in other places would happen here then a zero drink drive limit and compulsory driver training would be the 2 acts proven to reduce casualties. But maybe too many MPs are too fond of the grog for that to happen.

[Genestho]

snip

There are a few holes in the stats in those reports. The Govt. has very selective vision esp. the previous one. The problem is the conclusions drawn from the figures are not obtained from an impartial source. The unlicensed category does not included lapsed learners or car licence holders riding etc. That is a 'wrong licence class'.

The stats also do not include 'illegal' riders that crash and flee the scene. It seems like the non/wrong licenced have fewer accidents. It is more likely that these go unreported.

The other thing is that the LTSA deliberatley mislead the public into thinking that 'too fast for the conditions' means 'exceeding the posted limit', where like all other western countries less than 10% of fatalities are from users over the speed limit and yet a huge amount of resources are devoted to stopping speeders.

If what happens in other places would happen here then a zero drink drive limit and compulsory driver training would be the 2 acts proven to reduce casualties. But maybe too many MPs are too fond of the grog for that to happen.

Thanks MaxB, I don't doubt for a second what you're saying there!
I've found any stats can be manipulated to say what "you" want them to say...
I just plucked those off to try to assist vgcspares, and out of personal interest...

I think I have asked about before, as to whether there is independantly analised data out there - which seems common sense, that there should be.
Until then I guess if interested request info under Official information Act 1982. Or use what is available.

I have been informed there is availabilty of the "raw" data....which may, or may not make the information available a little clearer..
But again, as you say, not impartial perhaps.

MaxB. I'm intrigued as to what you consider, to be an impartial source...just out of interest...how would we get an impartial representation of the stats, in your opinion...?

[Subike]

Subjective post

Man with a full licence rides down the road with the attitude
" I have a licence, I can do what I want till I get caught, its just a fine"
So he rides at a speed just over the limit,
is not over cautious because he is insured,
can give the finger at others because he is licenced,
rides where the fuck he wants, when ever he wants ,
with the attitude he obtained the day he got his licence.
But because this man is "Licenced" he MUST b a safe rider!

Man without a licence rides down the road with the attitude
" I dont have a licence, I will be very carefull what I do"
So he rides at a speed just over the limit.
Is very cautious cause he dont have insurance,
Is polite and friendly to other road users,
Puts up with idiot drivers and never causes road rage,
Plans his rides to be sure he does not attract undue attention,
Has an attitue of" Be aware all the time of speed, traffic, other road users etc"
But because this man has NO licence, he MUST be a dangerous road user.

make your own assumptions

[MarkH]

Man with a full licence rides down the road with the attitude
" I have a licence, I can do what I want till I get caught, its just a fine"
So he rides at a speed just over the limit,
is not over cautious because he is insured,
can give the finger at others because he is licenced,
rides where the fuck he wants, when ever he wants ,
with the attitude he obtained the day he got his licence.
But because this man is "Licenced" he MUST b a safe rider!

Man without a licence rides down the road with the attitude
" I dont have a licence, I will be very carefull what I do"
So he rides at a speed just over the limit.
Is very cautious cause he dont have insurance,
Is polite and friendly to other road users,
Puts up with idiot drivers and never causes road rage,
Plans his rides to be sure he does not attract undue attention,
Has an attitue of" Be aware all the time of speed, traffic, other road users etc"
But because this man has NO licence, he MUST be a dangerous road user.

It sounds a bit too stressful to be like the 2nd man, I think overall I would prefer to be the first man to be totally honest. I like being able to ride where & when I want. I like that I can give people the finger, even if I don't generally decide to do so. The insurance is a nice safety net, though I still ride with some caution because I don't want to be hurt/killed.

So, am I a safe rider? Well I have a full license so *shrug*. I guess I am safer than some inexperienced riders and less safe than some with much more experience than me.

[Big Dave]

Pain of getting shit - licence, wof, insurance - together = small inconvenience.

Pain of shit hitting fan if circumstance conspire against = large snowball.

There is an age where this becomes self evident. It's called maturity.

[Sky-hi]

Just a piece of paper mate

a piece of paper that makes your insurance valid.

[dpex]

There are a surprising number (well surprising to me anyway) of people riding around on big bikes, without licences.

Back in the day, licences were issued by local authorities (like the Mt Albert Borough Council for example). In the mid-'80s there was a major restructuring, all those small boroughs ceased to exist, and licence records were lost by the hundreds. So now large numbers of people who used to ride in the '80s or earlier decide they will get a bike, but discover they have to go through the whole process again. They say, "bugger it! I'm not going to get a 250cc bike and a learner's permit!" So they don't. They just buy a big bike and ride it.

I know plenty of people like that, and for every one I know of there must be dozens of others. Not unusual at all.


The answer to the prob is simple. Call LTNZ. Tell them when and where you got your licence and respectfully ask them to find it. They'll give you a case-number which you produce to the next cop who pulls you over.

The liability is all theirs (LTNZ). Their records are a shambles due to the various changes in licence type over the years and, no doubt, INCIS.

That some local authority or local MOT unit's records have been lost is not your issue.

Your licence is like the Treaty Of Waitangi. It was writ and therefore it holds good to this day and beyond.

I'm in exactly this space at the moment and I will fight to my last breath to have the authorities return my motorbike and semi-trailer licences. Both of which appear to have never existed.

I guess I'm a bit luckier than most, as regards my bike licence. I can still remember the name of the MOT cop who tested me and handed it out. And guess what? The guy still works the AK Motorway patrol.

But even I didn't have that I'd still fight to the death. A one-man hikoi, maybe. But my licences to do all manner of things, from fishing to riding, are my own Treaties with the authorities, and no bastard is going to defraud me of any of them simply because some grey-faced worm employed by the politbureau screwed up.

[lankyman]

man on brand new 800cc+ black bike dressed in black but with dayglo vest for safety ... and no bike license

wonder what the "lock up all the alchos and she'll be right" brigade will think of that ?

Were you wasted when you posted this thread?

[dpex]

Subjective post

Man with a full licence rides down the road with the attitude
" I have a licence, I can do what I want till I get caught, its just a fine"
So he rides at a speed just over the limit,
is not over cautious because he is insured,
can give the finger at others because he is licenced,
rides where the fuck he wants, when ever he wants ,
with the attitude he obtained the day he got his licence.
But because this man is "Licenced" he MUST b a safe rider!

Man without a licence rides down the road with the attitude
" I dont have a licence, I will be very carefull what I do"
So he rides at a speed just over the limit.
Is very cautious cause he dont have insurance,
Is polite and friendly to other road users,
Puts up with idiot drivers and never causes road rage,
Plans his rides to be sure he does not attract undue attention,
Has an attitue of" Be aware all the time of speed, traffic, other road users etc"
But because this man has NO licence, he MUST be a dangerous road user.

make your own assumptions


I think you are absolutely correct. Nobody in his right mind...except maybe a Harly rider....is going to set him/herself up for the big fall.

Consider the penalties. 1. No licence. 2. No L plate. 3. Getting busted for 111Kph in a 100Kph means you get busted for doing 41Kph over 'your' limit. That's 28 days on the bus plus the loss of bike, plus the fine, plus, plus, plus.

So which rider will take greater care? The one with bugger all to lose but a few hundred bucks or he/she who could lose big-time?

Oddly, at some level, the LTNZ should encourage non-licenced riders to ride on account of they will be way more attentive than a number of licenced riders.

Funny cunundrum, eh?

[MaxB]

Thanks MaxB, I don't doubt for a second what you're saying there!
I've found any stats can be manipulated to say what "you" want them to say...
I just plucked those off to try to assist vgcspares, and out of personal interest...

I think I have asked about before, as to whether there is independantly analised data out there - which seems common sense, that there should be.
Until then I guess if interested request info under Official information Act 1982. Or use what is available.

I have been informed there is availabilty of the "raw" data....which may, or may not make the information available a little clearer..
But again, as you say, not impartial perhaps.

MaxB. I'm intrigued as to what you consider, to be an impartial source...just out of interest...how would we get an impartial representation of the stats, in your opinion...?

Hi TGW

I think we can trust the raw numbers that are in the references of the LTSA web page eg total number of riders, accidents and fatalities. These are obtained by Govt statisticians.

The problem arises when you try to assign categories to the data. This is where the figures can be manipulated by the LTSA. As you say the stats can tell us anything we want to hear.

Statistics NZ are the most trusted statistical body in the country but they do not cover direct motoring stats. That is done by the LTSA. There was a time when SNZ was all powerful but under the last Govt. the wings were clipped so much they are a shadow of their former selves.

The nearest thing we have is an organisation like the AA and from time to time they do challenge the Govt. view. Sometimes Consumer go after the Govt. on motoring issues. But they do not commission research AFAIK.

Overseas there are organisations like the US Center for Automotive Research and the UKs MIRA which are paid for by levies on carmakers. They can be called upon to pass comment on their Govt. plans and offer another point of view.

Commissioned research and analysis undertaken by a Crown Research Institute (for example) can cost up to $200/hr. So that makes it unlikely we would get much impartial analysis done on anything unless you know someone with deep pockets.