A question

[Ivan]

If built could you run a rotary engine in buckets at all if you worked it out to be the equivilent of 100cc?

[nudemetalz]

be bloody small cylinders.....:rofl:

[Skunk]

Wankel....

[pete376403]

would be a tiny rotary if the formula comparing rotary / reciprotating still applies - eg a 13B (1.3 litre) Mazda was considered to be equivalent to a 3 litre or thereabouts piston engine . Lots here http://www.drivingsports.com/site/2008/12/rotary-vs-piston-engine-equivalency/

[Pumba]

The rotary wankle engine is just a four stroke engine in a different configuration (someone correct me if I am wrong here)

Therefore as long as it fit into the class rules with its capacity calculated as per the following MNZ rule:


Rule 10-15-2 (http://www.motorcyclingnz.co.nz/download/Chapter_10_Motorcycles_Technical.pdf)
Rotary combustion (Wankel Patent): Capacity of one working chamber in cubic centimetres, multiplied by number of rotors, multiplied by two.

Couldnt see any issues

[koba]

I have thought one of these would be interesting, but you couldn't use it for buckets because its a competition engine that is too big.

Does the 250 count under the new proposed 125GP rules though...?
The dyno graph looks very favorable but the gearing situation could prove interesting.

[avgas]

hmmm it used to be 1300cc rotary vs 3L+ 4 strokes
so that would make it what 50cc rotary? Yes it could be done, yes you would have to replace the engine each race.
Nothing against rotaries - truth be told if you made a massive one it would be super reliable.

[koba]

The rotary wankle engine is just a four stroke engine in a different configuration (someone correct me if I am wrong here)

Therefore as long as it fit into the class rules with its capacity calculated as per the following MNZ rule:



Couldnt see any issues

Ahh, true that would screw the 250 in 125GP then.
Shame, It only weighs 15 kg too...

[speights_bud]

If built could you run a rotary engine in buckets at all if you worked it out to be the equivilent of 100cc?

i remember reading in an older version of the MNZ rules that it was ok so long as the CC rating complied

[CookMySock]

I have thought one of these would be interesting, but you couldn't use it for buckets because its a competition engine that is too big.
Theres a sachs wankel lawn mower engine that is emphatically not a competition engine. :laugh:

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/SearchResults.aspx?searchString=sachs+rotary

I have seen one of these peripheral ported.

Steve

[koba]

Theres a sachs wankel lawn mower engine that is emphatically not a competition engine. :laugh:

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/SearchResults.aspx?searchString=sachs+rotary

I have seen one of these peripheral ported.

Steve

Interesting!

Jeeze thats some crazy $!

[F5 Dave]

[sigh] from the rules; "Engines must be derived from non-competition motorcycles. . ."

ok Ivan, what non-competition motorcycle uses a rotisserie engine?:zzzz:

I think that precludes lawnmowers,
even if it is stretching the word 'rotary'.

[CookMySock]

I think that precludes lawnmowers,
even if it is stretching the word 'rotary'.Yup. Fear my ohlins-equipped briggs and stratton bucket, with its' industrial vee-belt drive. I'll even bring the rotary-tiller attachment to help get your winter garden in good shape.

Will an 8hp motor spook the farmyard too much? If not, why not allow the sachs just for amusement sake? It will be a feat of engineering just getting a gearbox attached to it, and then comes the mods to get 13,000rpm out of it. Much fun to be had there. If it gets outlawed later on coz its too fast, then it will go down in history as such, much like the skylines did in V8 motor racing - now legends, along with the people who built them.

Steve

[nudemetalz]

mmmm,.....rotary racer.... :drool:
Just listen to how quickly it revs,....I see that 8hp Sachs engine with potential.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDngDlIuyIE

[Ivan]

[sigh] from the rules; "Engines must be derived from non-competition motorcycles. . ."

ok Ivan, what non-competition motorcycle uses a rotisserie engine?:zzzz:

I think that precludes lawnmowers,
even if it is stretching the word 'rotary'.

It was a thought I was thinking of cause my mates got a 13b and I was looking at it and thought hmm if you made your own would it be aloud in buckets.

[F5 Dave]

I'm sure it would be very loud.

Making a complete engine would be seriously cool, but hardly based on a road going bike. There has been a uniflow made, but it wasn't legal.

Have you looked at a 13b, or even a 12a? Or more importantly, tried to move one? They weight like a million kilos! They really aren't as clever as people make out.

Beside you can't even build a bucket,- how would you be able to build a complete non conventional engine in a smaller scale to existing rotarys?

c'mon, even that goes beyond Ivan dreaming:zzzz::zzzz::zzzz:

[nudemetalz]

Point of interest, why would that Sachs lawn mower engine not be legal (capacity notwithstanding) ?
It's not a race engine (I don't think).

[F5 Dave]

To quote both the rulebook & myself. . .

[sigh] from the rules; "Engines must be derived from non-competition motorcycles. . ."
.

Again using common sense we'd probably let it run until is became over competitive. The rules are fairly clear, but there are already classes for racing lawnmowers over in the states if you are that desperate to. What is wrong that people can't just go out & buy a bike? What next? Racing appliances? Food-processors vs breadknives?

[nudemetalz]

ha ha ha... :cool:
Racing food processor.....hmmm.....possibility....

[Patch]

ohhh bucket racing - not for the faint hearted

[Yow Ling]

What next? Racing appliances?

Some less kind peeps have said that about FXR150's in the past

[Ivan]

I'm sure it would be very loud.

Making a complete engine would be seriously cool, but hardly based on a road going bike. There has been a uniflow made, but it wasn't legal.

Have you looked at a 13b, or even a 12a? Or more importantly, tried to move one? They weight like a million kilos! They really aren't as clever as people make out.

Beside you can't even build a bucket,- how would you be able to build a complete non conventional engine in a smaller scale to existing rotarys?

c'mon, even that goes beyond Ivan dreaming:zzzz::zzzz::zzzz:


12a pfffft 13B all the way PP Brap Brap Braping down the road in a low as RX3 chassis:2thumbsup

I wasnt saying Im going to make one I was just asking

[F5 Dave]

It's sad what amuses children these days. So you think so crapbox from the 70s with running gear designed in the 60s, is cool once the crude suspension is disabled?

Buy a car & stop troubling us. You're on the wrong forum.:zzzz:

[nudemetalz]

I remember going out to the Slipway and the car guys were still there. That bloody Beemer 320i with a rotary doing a huge burnout....what some people like ay...though, I think I did a burnout on Lady P there once......

Back on topic,...rotaries just aren't in the same game as even 2 strokes for development in this day and age. If they were you would see them even on small (bucket) bikes, wouldn't you.
Look at all of the major hassle Norton had with the F1 roadbike, Suzuki with their RE-5, need I go on.

So, personally, as cool as it would be to have a rotary-powered commuter- based bucket, it ain't going to happen.

Develop the 2 strokes 100cc like these YZF-R125's and CBR-150s are. That's what we need.

[Skunk]

How do you measure displacement of a turbine? I have an idea....

[F5 Dave]

Oh please God let this thread die. . .

[Sully60]

Oh please God let this thread die. . .
Not before you elucidate this term:


over competitive

[Fooman]

How do you measure displacement of a turbine? I have an idea....

Turbines are generally rated on power output. Having said that, power output is pretty much a function of the mass flow rate of the turbine/fuel type/efficiency. E.g. a 120 MW simple cycle "E" class gas turbine (35% efficiency) has a mass flow rate of ~150 kg/s of combustion gases.

Well, you did ask...

Cheers,
FM

[Skunk]

Turbines are generally rated on power output. Having said that, power output is pretty much a function of the mass flow rate of the turbine/fuel type/efficiency. E.g. a 120 MW simple cycle "E" class gas turbine (35% efficiency) has a mass flow rate of ~150 kg/s of combustion gases.

Well, you did ask...

Cheers,
FM
Yeah, I know. Though you could argue they have a combustion chamber but where it starts and finishes would be open to dispute.

[nudemetalz]

Jay Leno has a Turbine bike. It's road-based....shall I go on or will I risk a molotov-cocktail thrown through my lounge window from F5 Dave..... :dodge: :lol:

[sharknet]

be bloody small cylinders.....:rofl:

I think he meant rotary, not radial...

[sharknet]

To quote both the rulebook & myself. . .


Again using common sense we'd probably let it run until is became over competitive. The rules are fairly clear, but there are already classes for racing lawnmowers over in the states if you are that desperate to. What is wrong that people can't just go out & buy a bike? What next? Racing appliances? Food-processors vs breadknives?

They race belt sanders...

[Sully60]

I think he meant rotary, not radial...

That's' what I thought but Nudey is correct though not in the sense that Ivan was on about.
You'll find that type of early radial engine had the crank solidly mounted to the airframe and the prop mounted effectively mounted to the crankcase, so the whole engine spins around the crank rather than the conventional method. Engine speed was controlled via ignition cut.

Imagine if that technology took off in buckets!:whistle:

[marty]

Yeah, I know. Though you could argue they have a combustion chamber but where it starts and finishes would be open to dispute.

the combustion chamber area is simple to measure in a gas turbine. from inlet to power turbine inlet i would suspect. beauty of a gas turbine is that it doesn't really lose HP with altitude, as you can just keep stuffing fuel into it until it melts

[marty]

Jay Leno has a Turbine bike. It's road-based....shall I go on or will I risk a molotov-cocktail thrown through my lounge window from F5 Dave..... :dodge: :lol:

it's a helicopter engine.

[nudemetalz]

it's a helicopter engine.

Bell JetRanger engine I think at that too - Y2K bike...bloody long and ugly !!!


That's' what I thought but Nudey is correct though not in the sense that Ivan was on about.
You'll find that type of early radial engine had the crank solidly mounted to the airframe and the prop mounted effectively mounted to the crankcase, so the whole engine spins around the crank rather than the conventional method. Engine speed was controlled via ignition cut.

Imagine if that technology took off in buckets!:whistle:


Had terrible torque reaction too because of that. I thought the Guzzi was bad but the old Sopwith Camels that were powered by them were really fast rolling one way and not so the other.

[Sully60]

JetRanger engine I think at that too - Y2K bike...bloody long and ugly !!!

And bloody good at melting plastic car bumpers at the lights!

[avgas]

F&P Gentle Annie racer should be on the cards i'll say

[Sully60]

F&P Gentle Annie racer should be on the cards i'll say

Maybe something (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31DDUN5YuML._SL500_AA280_.jpg) else for the female bucket racers?

[speights_bud]

we recondition rotor housings at work if anyone here cares, i've spent a few hours watching the surface grinder run back and forth :sleep:

[sharknet]

we recondition rotor housings at work if anyone here cares, i've spent a few hours watching the surface grinder run back and forth :sleep:


You need a hobby..