Target those who can pay!

[Clockwork]

This sucks.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/2362100/Target-those-who-can-pay

It shouldn't matter how much it costs to collect them, fines are meant to be a punishment NOT an income gathering exercise.

Or should I say revenue?
"New Zealanders owe $790 million in fines, of which $448m is overdue. Much of the fines came from traffic offences."

[Mikkel]

What a cop out.

Jail, home detention, removing licenses.... what a load of bollocks. Take their stuff and sell it - what remains can be paid off at $10/hour in labour camps. E.g. a coalmine.

It's not fucking difficult, all it takes is the willingness to do something about it.

[James Deuce]

They just need to tap IRD on the shoulder and get it taken out of people's pay. Talk about making a meal out of it.

[=cJ=]

Easy innit, if you break the law, just make sure you display complete, utter comtempt for it and you'll get treated more lightly.

/me is so confused...

[Mully]

That's fucking outrageous.

Take their fucking stuff, take their fucking pay or make them do PD (and chuck the fuckers in jail if they don't).

This is complete bullshit. This wont happen. The public outcry will stop it in it's tracks.

Who's the Minister in charge?? Corrections??

[alanzs]

Is anybody really surprised?

[Dave Lobster]

The public outcry will stop it in it's tracks.


Thanks... I've just spat porridge in my laptop!!

[avgas]

Don't attempt to pay a fine, don't attempt in any way to at least organize something with the govt.
Remove ALL assets - burn notice. Not just ones required to pay fines, ALL.
Should said assets not cover expenses - chain gang.
Whats the point of having a judicial process if there is NO CONSEQUENCE?
Slumdog millionaire indeed.

[CookMySock]

Which reinforces what believe - if you dont want to pay it, then DON'T. Theres fuck all they can do about it.

Steve

[BigG]

So thats why the HP are patrolling the Havelock North Hills eH!:Police:

[Beemer]

It pisses me off too. Why should those who pay up when they are fined have to carry on when they are basically saying that those who don't pay won't be chased? Why don't they start seizing assets? Most of the fine dodgers have flat screen tvs, a car, XBox, etc so start taking that. Or take a percentage of their wages before they get it (like child support but this can be taxpayer support!) or their benefit if that is the only source of income.

Many times you hear of cops giving a person repeated fines for the same offence - riding a pushbike without a helmet, no warrant, no rego, no licence, etc. Instead of repeatedly fining them, if they get caught again and they haven't paid the fine for the first offence, seize their property or force them to undertake some form of community work every weekend (like PD) until they have paid off the debt. If they refuse, then put them in some sort of remand centre for a month - or send them to an army-like facility.

It pisses me off when someone goes up before the court and because they get a jail sentence they have all their fines cancelled. Hell, if we buy a house and pay off 50% of the mortgage the bank doesn't turn around and say "good on you, don't bother paying the rest!" so why should people who owe money to us - the taxpayer - be let off?

[Genestho]

*Chortle* ..."Too Hard"....

I've often wondered why IRD cannot take the fines directly out of pays...

If you refuse to pay, the fines are then converted into community service. The hourly rate, usually more than $100 an hour, makes it attractive to default....

Ridiculous...

[steve_t]

I don't get why they can't just send a letter saying "If you do not pay your fine within 10 working days (or 28 days or whatever) or at least contact us to arrange a payment plan, we will add collection costs to your fine and you will be charge 2.5% interest calculated daily."
This is how the IRD works. This would make all fines cost effective to collect and the purpose of the fine will be fulfilled. How does not enforcing a fine stop the offender from re-offending? I hate that Labour has turned this country so far into socialism that it's nearly a communist country. It's almost better to be without a job! WINZ give people the benefit, food money, money for clothes, washing machines to wash the clothes they've bought with tax dollars, money for their teeth to get fixed, money to help them get cars.
OK, rant rant rant about politics... haha :Offtopic::laugh::laugh:

[slofox]

Un be fucking lievable.....reinforce contempt for the law...yeah. That would work...

[jaymzw]

I don't get why they can't just send a letter saying "If you do not pay your fine within 10 working days (or 28 days or whatever) or at least contact us to arrange a payment plan, we will add collection costs to your fine and you will be charge 2.5% interest calculated daily."


Because this wont work, who gives a fuck if you get more added to your fines. You aren't going to pay them because there is no punishment or incentive for these crims.

I know someone who had emphasis on 'had' 11,000 dollars in fines after constantly getting done for no wof, no reg, no 'l plate',no full licensed passenger, outside lisence time to drive etc. It adds up bloody quickly he was again emphasis on 'was' an idiot but has now paid it all off after years at $50 a week. This was voluntary. But not everyone is like this, some people can't be forced because they don't care. The system needs to be changed before anything else.

At the end of the day it comes down to 'do the crime, then do the time or pay the fine'

[davereid]

I've often wondered why IRD cannot take the fines directly out of pays...

They sort of do. When I was an employer I would get letters from IRD demanding I deducted fines from employees wages, and pay them like I paid the employees PAYE.

Of course as soon as I did so, the worker had virtually no pay - cerainly no more than the dole. So he stopped coming to work. So I stopped paying him and etc etc.

Interestingly, these letters all gave me a minimum figure below which I was not allowed to deduct fines.

This is the same on the dole, the allowable collection rate is tiny - a few cents a week maximum. The dole is already defined as the minimum survivable rate, and a "civilised" government has signed all sorts of conventions that don't allow it to force people into "poverty".

The problem is that you can't get money out of a stone. If there is no money there you are stuffed.

You can't enforce PD or community service, cos if you dont go you just get err fined.

And it costs almost $2k a week to lock someone up, so exactly how do you deal with minor offences ?.

Maybe we just have too many bloody laws.

Ya can't ride a push bike without a helmet, walk the dog without a lead, have a beer on the beach or call an idiot an idiot if he's is in a minority ethnic group.

[peasea]

Easy innit, if you break the law, just make sure you display complete, utter comtempt for it and you'll get treated more lightly..

Works for me.

Actually it doesn't, got a 200 buck fine the other day, bugger. However, it's the only one outstanding (well, it's not THAT outstanding, but it's ok) and I'll pay up coz I don't want a hairy-arsed bailiff knocking on my door looking to uplift my stereo or worse.

IRD should be involved with every fine handed down.

[peasea]

[QUOTE=T.G.W;2044140]

I've often wondered why IRD cannot take the fines directly out of pays...

QUOTE]


They are doing just that to a mate of mine right now. Lucky they didn't take his stuff I say. Just pay the fuckers and it all goes away.

[Ocean1]

The policy has a familiar feel to it...

Ah, yes, they do the same with every form of taxation, harvest the high yeild targets.

Anyone still of the opinion that traffic fines aren't about revenue?





Didn't think so...

[CookMySock]

Not all of these fine defaulters are asshole scum-sucking cunts (hehe). There have been a few KBers who were recently set up for misdemeanors they had no part in, and in this case (and maybe some others) there is a good case for telling the gubbermint to ram the fine up its' bum. It's a bit like fighting in public - it's illegal, and no one really approves of it, but the time does come when one has to stand up for ones' self, and then its time to work the loopholes (or come out swinging.)

Steve

[kiwifruit]

Not all of these fine defaulters are asshole scum-sucking cunts (hehe). There have been a few KBers who were recently set up for misdemeanors they had no part in, and in this case (and maybe some others) there is a good case for telling the gubbermint to ram the fine up its' bum. It's a bit like fighting in public - it's illegal, and no one really approves of it, but the time does come when one has to stand up for ones' self, and then its time to work the loopholes (or come out swinging.)

Steve

<img src="http://thesportshernia.typepad.com/blog/images/2007/06/18/derek_lee_chris_young_3.jpg">

[Grahameeboy]

Seems the solution is to stop fines then...would be cheaper for the Govt and the Public...every one is a winner...solved

[Mom]

People with unpaid fines do get their fines in lumps deducted from their wages, this can only happen when the legal process has been followed by whoever wants the money, Ministry of Justice or whoever. An order is granted in court and then if, and only if they can identify the person that owes the money and identify their employer does a demand for deduction from wages take place. This all costs, not so much money mind...time. It costs time.

It is there for the ones that want to pay (well not want to exactly, but you know what I mean) steps are taken and a process entered into to pay off fines, bit like HP for the naughty. Get another fine and add it to the tab basically.

What gets me about this particular slant on collecting fines outstanding is they are going to actively chase down the ones that have the means to pay. Everyone has the means to pay if they are earning. Even the beneficiaries can afford to pay, they have money coming in, I cant say earning eh. Seems they wont be chasing the dead beats for money though, just the workers.

Dont pay your fines and get away with it seems to be ok, if you leave NZ, or actually dont give a shit.

I dont have any fines outstanding at the moment, my last one was a decent one for parking illegally in the main street here ($45! Robbing wankers, specially as they painted over the almost non existent yellow lines in white a few weeks later!) so this one does not affect me.

If I was in the position I would be pushing for a law change to bring back this wanker, and make him pay!



The biggest fine dodger is Reece William Rosvall, a former Lower Hutt car dealer, who owes $1.8m after being convicted in 1996 for his role in a customs fraud involving 1000 Japanese cars. He now works at a car yard in Australia. He faces arrest if he returns to New Zealand, but cannot be extradited for owing fines.

$1.8M!!! Get him back and get him paying!

[Genestho]

They sort of do. When I was an employer I would get letters from IRD demanding I deducted fines from employees wages, and pay them like I paid the employees PAYE.

Of course as soon as I did so, the worker had virtually no pay - cerainly no more than the dole. So he stopped coming to work. So I stopped paying him and etc etc.


Ahhhh ok! Thanks Dave!!

Hard to, re; no laws...
I scratch my head in disbelief over this one though...only because of the "big picture" message it sends..

Not all fine collectors are lowlifes, I understand some motivations, being the "principal" of not paying, due to beliefs of the "revenue collection" system, or the stand up and be counted types...

Still.... like it or not, supposedly there are enforced consequences for our actions when breaking a law.
How is it we've come to enforcing consequences upon the easy targets, in exchange for letting the "too hard" targets go?
Why are the fines allowed to accumulate, with seemingly no consequence?

It's B.S!
And it would appear, a direct reflection of what is wrong with the "System"

If you look at the same system, the bigger picture...

Accumulate as many criminal convictions you like, chuck it on the tab....lowlifes wriggle out of the consequences while the good buggers, the community - continue to pay.

What's next!!!!?

Actually don't tell me, I might go sit next to the Poli's and join them with my head in the sand ....
(Yea right!:bleh:)

[MotoGirl]

I know a young, unemployed guy whose mother just died and left him with over $45,000 in cash. There's at least another $100,000 coming his way once he receives the inheritance that his mother was to receive from her mother...

This guy owes something stupid like $27,000 in fines (all driving-related) and he just doesn't want to pay them. He is so determined not to pay them that he's volunteering to do time in jail. He figures that a few months out is life is nothing if it means his fines get written off.

[steve_t]

I know a young, unemployed guy whose mother just died and left him with over $45,000 in cash. There's at least another $100,000 coming his way once he receives the inheritance that his mother was to receive from her mother...

This guy owes something stupid like $27,000 in fines (all driving-related) and he just doesn't want to pay them. He is so determined not to pay them that he's volunteering to do time in jail. He figures that a few months out is life is nothing if it means his fines get written off.

What a frickin loser! I hope the inmates give him a 'bum & cake party'. I hear the current inmates bring the cake :laugh::laugh::laugh:

[LBD]

The Government is to focus on collecting fines from those most likely to pay rather than hounding hard-core fine defaulters. The Justice Ministry says collecting debts from defaulters who never pay their fines is expensive and it is too hard to recover the money....

This is govt encouraged anarchy. IMO

[Usarka]

The problem is that you can't get money out of a stone. If there is no money there you are stuffed.

You can't enforce PD or community service, cos if you dont go you just get err fined.

And it costs almost $2k a week to lock someone up, so exactly how do you deal with minor offences ?.


http://www.enemyforces.net/firearms/glock17_3.jpg

[SMOKEU]

You can't seize anyone's assets if the don't have any to begin with...

[Usarka]

You can't seize anyone's assets if the don't have any to begin with...

Ummm, most of them were traffic fines. Did the bones-of-their-arse poor souls break the law in rental cars????

[LBD]

Ummm, most of them were traffic fines. Did the bones-of-their-arse poor souls break the law in rental cars????

If I recall correctly the rental car firms can deduct fines from your credit card....

[Usarka]

If I recall correctly the rental car firms can deduct fines from your credit card....

lol my point was people can't say it's hard to seize assets when the offenders are driving around in a *car* that they are also using to accrue said fines.

Can't pay up? Bye bye wheels....

[LBD]

lol my point was people can't say it's hard to seize assets when the offenders are driving around in a *car* that they are also using to accrue said fines.

Can't pay up? Bye bye wheels....

Agreed, it is the habitual offenders/non payers that need to be targeted not the one offs who have not paid yet....

[ghost]

Is anybody really surprised?


No.

....Still no.

[MSTRS]

lol my point was people can't say it's hard to seize assets when the offenders are driving around in a *car* that they are also using to accrue said fines.

Can't pay up? Bye bye wheels....

What makes you think that said wheels are actually worth anything? And apart from depriving some loser of transport for as long as it takes him/her to grab another $100 POS, I can't see what effect it would have. And then there's the whole "who is the registered owner" thing. The court's time is more than the value to be extracted...

[Clockwork]

... The court's time is more than the value to be extracted...

But thats the problem... its not supposed to be about the money and shouldn't matter what the cost, the penalty must be paid and collection priority should be given to those with the most (number and/or amount) of unpaid fines.

[Usarka]

What makes you think that said wheels are actually worth anything? And apart from depriving some loser of transport for as long as it takes him/her to grab another $100 POS, I can't see what effect it would have. And then there's the whole "who is the registered owner" thing. The court's time is more than the value to be extracted...

Yeah you're right, it's too hard and costly. Just let them get away with it....

[MSTRS]

But thats the problem... its not supposed to be about the money and shouldn't matter what the cost, the penalty must be paid and collection priority should be given to those with the most (number and/or amount) of unpaid fines.


Yeah you're right, it's too hard and costly. Just let them get away with it....

Yea yea I know.
Perhaps if 'costs of collecting/disposing of car(s)' could simply be added to the total as would subtracting the value realised from said car...I think they call that 'Revolving Credit'

[Ocean1]

What makes you think that said wheels are actually worth anything?...


But thats the problem... its not supposed to be about the money...

Correct. The function of a penalty is supposed to be deterrence, the fact they’re giving up on the hard cases simply demonstrates that the focus is on revenue.


And then there's the whole "who is the registered owner" thing...

So what, either they stole it, (more charges) or they borrowed it from someone who was prepared to aid & abet etc, (again, more charges). Crush the fuckers.

[James Deuce]

If the mechanism to remove fines from someone's pay already exists, and IRD can decide that I'm going to pay them $700+ a fortnight for Student Loan payments that they decided that I owed them after an audit, and my employer didn't tell me that was going to happen and apparently doesn't have to, why are they tip-toeing around fines defaulters?

Just take the money. All of their pay/dole until they have it paid back. Too bad if they can't pay for their rent, GE Finance loans and weed. To quote every bastard adult in the universe: "They should have thought of that before they did the crime."

[Dave Lobster]

If the mechanism to remove fines from someone's pay already exists, and IRD can decide that I'm going to pay them $700+ a fortnight for Student Loan payments that they decided that I owed them after an audit, and my employer didn't tell me that was going to happen and apparently doesn't have to, why are they tip-toeing around fines defaulters?


Because politicians need a nice big cup of harden the fuck up.