Traction feedback device?

[bogan]

Ive been toying with the idea of an electronic training device to help riders learn the limits by displaying the amount of traction being used in any given situation.

What it does is takes sensor data from the bike and works out all the net forces acting on the bike, it also calculates the weight distribution on each wheel. Using the cornering g-force, acceleration/decelleration forces, weight distributions, crest/dip forces, etc, it calculates the percentage of traction currently being used for each wheel and displays the highest one.

The value it uses for this maximum amount of traction is calculated using a number of constants which are programmed into the system, these are programed for each bike it is on. They include weight, rider and bike, tyre profile and friction co-efficient (can be found with two sets of scales).

What it cant do is sense the road conditions, potholes gravel, oil, wet, camber, the rider is responsible to back off if the road is slippery.

The display is currently under review, an LED bargraph is used in the current prototype, which shows the percentage scale in realtime, and records the max percentage used round a corner which it then displays after the corner for rider review. Other suggestions have been to use a beeper, beeps faster the more traction you use, and also to do datalogging in conjunction with GPS data.

The working idea of it is that it provides riders with a measure of the upper limit of traction they have available, (kind of like an intense track day would do, only without the practical experience obviously). For example, if a rider did a quick stop in 70m thinking he was using most of the traction, then put this gismo on the bike and found he could use a lot more, when he next did an emergency stop he could stop in 55m, thus being safer. There would be similar benifits while cornering and accelerating. The bit where this doesnt work is when the road conditions are poor, if he tried getting close to the gizmos idea of traction he would lock up, so the rider is still responsible for noticing porr road conditions and adjusting speeds and stopping force.

There is also the possiblity of a brak test to find the available traction, this would mean the rider rides along and locks up the rear wheel, the gizmo would then examine the deceleration needed and work out the force required to lock it up, and thus calculate the current road friction co-efficient, but again this would still not solve the problem of potholes, gravel spots, and oil slicks, though it would take care of different road quality and wet roads.

Your thoughts on this idea?

[kiwifruit]

Ive been toying with the idea of an electronic training device to help riders learn the limits by displaying the amount of traction being used in any given situation.

Display is (currently) a bargraph and a warning light which fills up as you go faster and faster (and use more and more traction) while cornering.

So far ive got a computer simulation, and a prototype with a limited number of sensors.

The final product would (most likely) consist of a speed sensor on each wheel (like abs systems) a main electronics box to be rigidely mounted to the frame, and the indicator bargraph to be stuck anywhere in view.

Your thoughts on this idea?

Sounds interesting but i can see a few problems, using it as a training device or a guide for riders.... especially new riders. One wouldn't want to be relying on a graph or a set of lights to determine how far one is from "the limit". There are so many variables outide the few inputs you speak of using. Speed and traction are not necessarily inversely proportional.

In saying that, it sounds like a cool idea, copyright it!

[bogan]

opps, i forgot to mention, it measures the cornering lean angle, as well as the g-force generated from going into a dip or over a crest, and also the bikes angle (uphil or downhill). The only major thing it doesnt measure is the road camber

[AllanB]

Sounds like a fun toy. I don't want to bag it but it cannot take into account the most important variables such as road surface (damp spot, cow shit, gravel mid corner etc). Or tyre temp or tyre wear.

Lets face it if you are on a big lean you know about it! :laugh:

Also the last thing I want to be looking at cranked over mid corner is a pretty graphic display. As an example some years ago on a former bike, I mounted one of those little vehicle angle spheres from a 4WD to the top of my instrument cluster.

It was cool.

So cool that one tended to chance a quick look at it mid corner.......suffice to say it did not stay mounted on the bike for long.

Now a Heads up display on my visor...........

Edit - as a instrument you can study after a ride it may be cool - download onto your computer and check out the lean angles.

[kiwifruit]

Sounds like a fun toy. I don't want to bag it but it cannot take into account the most important variables such as road surface (damp spot, cow shit, gravel mid corner etc). Or tyre temp or tyre wear.

Lets face it if you are on a big lean you know about it! :laugh:

Also the last thing I want to be looking at cranked over mid corner is a pretty graphic display. As an example some years ago on a former bike, I mounted one of those little vehicle angle spheres from a 4WD to the top of my instrument cluster.

It was cool.

So cool that one tended to chance a quick look at it mid corner.......suffice to say it did not stay mounted on the bike for long.

Now a Heads up display on my visor...........

Edit - as a instrument you can study after a ride it may be cool - download onto your computer and check out the lean angles.

yeah, wot he says

[cowpoos]

Ive been toying with the idea of an electronicing training device to help riders learn the limits by displaying the amount of traction being used in any given situation.

Display is (currently) a bargraph and a warning light which fills up as you go faster and faster (and use more and more traction) while cornering.

So far ive got a computer simulation, and a prototype with a limited number of sensors.

The final product would (most likely) consist of a speed sensor on each wheel (like abs systems) a main electronics box to be rigidely mounted to the frame, and the indicator bargraph to be stuck anywhere in view.

Your thoughts on this idea?

EDIT :The device measures the cornering lean angle, as well as the g-force generated from going into a dip or over a crest, and also the bikes angle (uphil or downhill). The only major thing it doesnt measure is the road camber
It won't work...there is to much data missing.

[bogan]

yeh i have thort of the whole looking at road during cornering, so it records the max traction usage and displays it for the next 5 secs after the corner.

As for the 4wd things, they measure the direction of net acceleration so would not be suitable for measureing lean angles anyway.

I realise it would be far more effective if it could see road hazards like gravel etc, but it is unrealisitc to try and sense these. The rider is responsible to realise if its wet, he should only use half the available traction

The idea behind it is the rider is able to learn the limit of traction on normal corners, so will have a better understanding of the bikes limits during emergency situations, such as avoiding hazards like oil slicks or gravel spots.

@Cowpoos, would you mind elaborating on the data it is missing?

[CookMySock]

You could build a device, so that it watched how you were cornering, and if you gave it a fright it could stand the bike up for you - thereby saving you the bother. That would be easy to build, and you could have it err on the side of "safety" (sic).

Steve

[AllanB]

You could build a device, so that it watched how you were cornering, and if you gave it a fright it could stand the bike up for you - thereby saving you the bother. That would be easy to build, and you could have it err on the side of "safety" (sic).
Steve

Thats a piss take right Steve?

A computer that halfway around a corner decides you are hammering it over to far and stands you up, stands you up into the path of a oncoming 4WD.

Ah I'd say NO to that.

[CookMySock]

Thats a piss take right Steve?Damn, I'm busted!

edit: LOL our mate cowshit took my "good idea" literally (abusive red red - again.) Of course, I take this as a compliment - you never can tell if I am serious or not. Haha.

Steve

[BMWST?]

a device that measures lateral acceleration is al that is required....lean angle is directly proportional to lateral forces.This way would be no more limited than the original..

[bogan]

a device that measures lateral acceleration is al that is required....lean angle is directly proportional to lateral forces.This way would be no more limited than the original..

this is correct for crude modeling (and is where the prototype system is currently up to), but it does not take into account speed, rider weight distribution, or incline changes, the final system i propose does.

[CookMySock]

Three-axis Accelerometers are cheap and simple to use.

http://www.evilmadscientist.com/article.php/ADXL330

Steve

[cowpoos]

It won't work...there is to much data missing.



@Cowpoos, would you mind elaborating on the data it is missing?

yep...read below


Damn, I'm busted!

edit: LOL our mate cowshit took my "good idea" literally (abusive red red - again.) Of course, I take this as a compliment - you never can tell if I am serious or not. Haha.

Steve

Doubt it...being a dumb arse...you had no thought of consequence's when you opened your mouth [typed...whatever] and then realised how stupid you were a posted this rubbish!! you are a almighty cock...and a rather daft one!!


a device that measures lateral acceleration is al that is required....lean angle is directly proportional to lateral forces.This way would be no more limited than the original..

What is not prepotional is avalible grip...there are differences between every single type of bike...the amount of available grip available and second mechanical grip created..and then tyre's...every one is different...and not to mention different rolling diameters at different speeds...

Then...there is the human factor...different riders balance different bikes in different ways...you have differing riding styles, which can create more grip that others...timid riders are stiff on a bike...and lessen grip because of...bad throttle control will alter grip massively...

You will have to be one mean physicist,with a lot of technical knowledge a world class suspension tech on speed dial, every manufactures spec's [the true ones no the brochure ones], be in the tyre manufactures back pocket and have incredible physic ability aswell.

I think that if a product could be made to do this...it would be a great 'Tool' but with so much data that is almost imposible to input into your model...you are on a hiding to nothing....

Great concept though :)

[FLYMO]

maybe some training wheels that lock in position so when u get home ya can measure the angle u have been on and go wow
then again they would be heavy and chrome for most harleys

[smoky]

yeh i have thort of the whole looking at road during cornering, so it records the max traction usage and displays it for the next 5 secs after the corner.
That will work for the first corner coming out of Whangamata, one corner after the next, then what


The idea behind it is the rider is able to learn the limit of traction on normal corners, so will have a better understanding of the bikes limits during emergency situations, such as avoiding hazards like oil slicks or gravel spots.

For a beginner, by the time your 'thingy' tells them they've hit oil or ice they'll already have lost it and on their way to falling off
They shouldn't learn to ride by some kind of meter telling them how far to lean? they'll never get the feeling for the bike and the road.
And when do they stop looking 'thru the corner' or concentrating on riding to look at it.
For the rest of us - we'll all go out and try to get it to light up to its max all the time - and fall off by pushing too hard or watching it to see what it's doing instead the road ahead.

It just sounds like a distraction

I had a car with rear wheel drive, as you lost traction to the rear wheels the computer transferred up to 40% of the torque to the front wheels. Had a meter to show you what was going on - I just loved flooring it on a corner and watching the meter go off and getting the 4 wheels hard out loosing traction - cool fun
It didn't result in me driving safer :second:

[bogan]

yep...read below



Doubt it...being a dumb arse...you had no thought of consequence's when you opened your mouth [typed...whatever] and then realised how stupid you were a posted this rubbish!! you are a almighty cock...and a rather daft one!!



What is not prepotional is avalible grip...there are differences between every single type of bike...the amount of available grip available and second mechanical grip created..and then tyre's...every one is different...and not to mention different rolling diameters at different speeds...

Then...there is the human factor...different riders balance different bikes in different ways...you have differing riding styles, which can create more grip that others...timid riders are stiff on a bike...and lessen grip because of...bad throttle control will alter grip massively...

You will have to be one mean physicist,with a lot of technical knowledge a world class suspension tech on speed dial, every manufactures spec's [the true ones no the brochure ones], be in the tyre manufactures back pocket and have incredible physic ability aswell.

I think that if a product could be made to do this...it would be a great 'Tool' but with so much data that is almost imposible to input into your model...you are on a hiding to nothing....

Great concept though :)

yeh, those issue are definetely the main ones, however the grip factor is able to be measured quite simply with a two axis force guage, so can be measured for whatever tyres are on there. Though it will change slightly as the tyres wear, riders would be encourages to ride with a decent safety factor, going at 99% of the traction is just asking for trouble!

for the suspension bit, the rider is expected to evaluate the road surface ans slow down accordingly if there is bumps in the corner, i beleive i have the expertise to pull the modeling of this off (currently engineering phd student at massey), and it is encouraging to hear that you think it would be a great tool if i do!

[CookMySock]

you are a almighty cock...and a rather daft one!!LMAO!!!


maybe some training wheels that lock in position so when u get home ya can measure the angle u have been onhehe, put them on cowshits' mouth perhaps, before his mother slaps him. :jerry:

Steve

[bogan]

That will work for the first corner coming out of Whangamata, one corner after the next, then what


For a beginner, by the time your 'thingy' tells them they've hit oil or ice they'll already have lost it and on their way to falling off
They shouldn't learn to ride by some kind of meter telling them how far to lean? they'll never get the feeling for the bike and the road.
And when do they stop looking 'thru the corner' or concentrating on riding to look at it.
For the rest of us - we'll all go out and try to get it to light up to its max all the time - and fall off by pushing too hard or watching it to see what it's doing instead the road ahead.

It just sounds like a distraction

I had a car with rear wheel drive, as you lost traction to the rear wheels the computer transferred up to 40% of the torque to the front wheels. Had a meter to show you what was going on - I just loved flooring it on a corner and watching the meter go off and getting the 4 wheels hard out loosing traction - cool fun
It didn't result in me driving safer :second:

hmm, i had not considered people misusing it. my thingy is not sposed to tell people if theres oil on the road, they have eyes for that! I think that begineer riders will still get a feel for the road with the system, as they will still feel all the bikes movements and get "feel" from the road surface.

[LBD]

What is not prepotional is avalible grip...there are differences between every single type of bike...the amount of available grip available and second mechanical grip created..and then tyre's...every one is different...and not to mention different rolling diameters at different speeds...

Then...there is the human factor...different riders balance different bikes in different ways...you have differing riding styles, which can create more grip that others...timid riders are stiff on a bike...and lessen grip because of...bad throttle control will alter grip massively...
I think that if a product could be made to do this...it would be a great 'Tool' but with so much data that is almost imposible to input into your model...you are on a hiding to nothing....

Great concept though :)

What he says, plus....

It seems the concept is only allowing for rear wheel traction, nothing for the front.

And from BMWST.... "a device that measures lateral acceleration is all that is required....Lean angle is directly proportional to lateral forces."

Cornering is a balance between gravity and lateral forces so any forces measured would still be acting down through the centerline of the bike and it would be difficult to seperate the differing forces into their component vectors

[cowpoos]

yeh, those issue are definetely the main ones, however the grip factor is able to be measured quite simply with a two axis force guage, so can be measured for whatever tyres are on there.

Tyres with different side wall profiles increase the speed of the engine as the the bike is lent over more aswell...which at the time might alter the centrifugal force at the time.



for the suspension bit, the rider is expected to evaluate the road surface ans slow down accordingly if there is bumps in the corner,

I think you grossly underestimate the suspension factor...

[BMWST?]

this is correct for crude modeling (and is where the prototype system is currently up to), but it does not take into account speed, rider weight distribution, or incline changes, the final system i propose does.

the lateral forces measured will be directly related to speed and rate of turn.they are inexticably linked

[bogan]

think its getting a bit off topic, the tech specs dont really need discussing, ive done significant research and am fairly sure that i can make this thing, the finer points such as sidewall radius/suspension action do not need to be sensed, as they can be approximated. This post is about whether there would be enough demand for this sort of device for me to continue developing it, as the next stage gets quite expensive.

[cowpoos]

think its getting a bit off topic, the tech specs dont really need discussing, ive done significant research and am fairly sure that i can make this thing, the finer points such as sidewall radius/suspension action do not need to be sensed, as they can be approximated. This post is about whether there would be enough demand for this sort of device for me to continue developing it, as the next stage gets quite expensive.
I would like some more info on how you will approximate the finer points..what factors and how they would be over come..if it were as simple as you believe it is..I would be impressed if you could produce this device..and it were 90% + functional...as I would expect it to be thought of by motorbike racing techs already.

Besides that...the use of the device would be a good indicator of changes to bike set up for racers...so not just releying on laptime...as you could potentially download different grip levels reached on different corners of a race track...and immensly help technicians set up a bike...and a rider realise his/her potiential..

[YellowDog]

95% of the time this will be of no value however you could use it to give yourself that ability to make it completely useless.

This would be a great device for new riders and may lead to less accidents.

[LBD]

think its getting a bit off topic, the tech specs dont really need discussing, ive done significant research and am fairly sure that i can make this thing, the finer points such as sidewall radius/suspension action do not need to be sensed, as they can be approximated. This post is about whether there would be enough demand for this sort of device for me to continue developing it, as the next stage gets quite expensive.


This is not getting off topic, if you want peoples informed opinion, then you need to allow for that opinion to be educated and intellengent. At this stage, while I agree with the concept, when you make comments like "As they can be approximated" then my opinion sways toward there being to much guess work to may this concept workable...

You need to go from being "Fairly Sure" to 100% positive you can make this work or IMO you will be in for a lot of heartache.

[bogan]

I would like some more info on how you will approximate the finer points..what factors and how they would be over come..if it were as simple as you believe it is..I would be impressed if you could produce this device..and it were 90% + functional...as I would expect it to be thought of by motorbike racing techs already.

Besides that...the use of the device would be a good indicator of changes to bike set up for racers...so not just releying on laptime...as you could potentially download different grip levels reached on different corners of a race track...and immensly help technicians set up a bike...and a rider realise his/her potiential..

by 90% functional, i assume you mean accuracy of +-10%, i think i could achieve this. For race applications +-10% is far too inaccurate, 1% is too inaccurate so i do not think it is feasable to develope a this system to the level required for racing.

as for the finer points you ask about, there are heaps and heaps of these, and i would have to outline the whole system on a public forum (i do want to make some cash form this idea if possible :P) to explain it to you, and those without a good grasp of physics probly wouldnt get it anyway.

[bogan]

This is not getting off topic, if you want peoples informed opinion, then you need to allow for that opinion to be educated and intellengent. At this stage, while I agree with the concept, when you make comments like "As they can be approximated" then my opinion sways toward there being to much guess work to may this concept workable...

You need to go from being "Fairly Sure" to 100% positive you can make this work or IMO you will be in for a lot of heartache.

im sure everyone can grasp the idea of what the device is supposed to do, if i cannot make it to that quality i would never release it, as it would do more damage than good. So people can make an opinion on this ideal device say a traction accuracy (of either wheel) of +-10%

the difference between fairly sure and 100% sure, is the difference between going to do, and have done.

[Usarka]

Don't sell it in the states!

Too many variables.

Apart from the condition of the road, tyres, surface contamination etc, there's also the issue of throttle, lean and brake control. Ham fisted inputs to either provide less traction than smooth ones.

What does 50% traction mean? If a 50% reading assumes a slow smooth opening of the throttle, it'd be quite easy to loose it at an 80% reading.

[LBD]

im sure everyone can grasp the idea of what the device is supposed to do, if i cannot make it to that quality i would never release it, as it would do more damage than good. So people can make an opinion on this ideal device say a traction accuracy (of either wheel) of +-10%

the difference between fairly sure and 100% sure, is the difference between going to do, and have done.

Mate IMO you are on very dangerous ground with this as good as the idea may be. Say I have one of your devices and are cornering 9% from the egde, but within the +_10%. I notice your gadget is telling me I can corner harder so I push it that extra 10% and have an off, are you prepared for the legalities that would follow?

"to explain it to you, and those without a good grasp of physics probly wouldnt get it anyway."
Yup we are all a pack of dumb arses here, so you didn't really want our opinions then?

[cowpoos]

by 90% functional, i assume you mean accuracy of +-10%, i think i could achieve this. For race applications +-10% is far too inaccurate, 1% is too inaccurate so i do not think it is feasable to develope a this system to the level required for racing.

as for the finer points you ask about, there are heaps and heaps of these, and i would have to outline the whole system on a public forum (i do want to make some cash form this idea if possible :P) to explain it to you, and those without a good grasp of physics probly wouldnt get it anyway.

1% is to inaccurate for a new rider....10% is fine for a racer...they usually have skills :) and it would be used as a gauge...aslong as it was reading consistantly...I'll give you an example...to get best use out of tyres your rear should have some slip...ie: 104-110% of traction otherwise heated dry rubber is not cleaned off the tyre, to allow moist, malleable
fresh rubber to be used.

If your device could measure in those parameters...then the rider could fish for different lines...and techs for different settings to allow the rider to make much better use of a tyre over race distance..

[bogan]

Mate IMO you are on very dangerous ground with this as good as the idea may be. Say I have one of your devices and are cornering 9% from the egde, but within the +_10%. I notice your gadget is telling me I can corner harder so I push it that extra 10% and have an off, are you prepared for the legalities that would follow?

"to explain it to you, and those without a good grasp of physics probly wouldnt get it anyway."
Yup we are all a pack of dumb arses here, so you didn't really want our opinions then?

actually, if i find the thing is 10% off, 90% of traction used, gets scaled to 100% of traction used, problem solved.

and what i meant was i want you opinion on the application of the idea, rather than the implementation.

@Usarka, i make the assumtion that a rider will start off not too hamfisted, and get more and more hamfisted as they push the limits, this system will apply that to the traction used, a ham fisted exit may use 90% of the traction, so next time (int theory) they will know not to ham it up even further

[cowpoos]

as for the finer points you ask about, there are heaps and heaps of these, and i would have to outline the whole system on a public forum (i do want to make some cash form this idea if possible :P) to explain it to you, and those without a good grasp of physics probly wouldnt get it anyway.

I believe...that if you don't explain the finer point...we can't give you rebuttal or positive feedback...


And I still think...you a seriously underestimating the amount of forces involved..I know your a physics student...but the amount of different forces involved in a motorcycle are huge...they are a very dynamic critter [machine]....especially the suspension!

BTW...is it sensing on both wheels??

[CookMySock]

Cornering is a balance between gravity and lateral forces so any forces measured would still be acting down through the centerline of the bike and it would be difficult to seperate the differing forces into their component vectorsAgreed. In fact, like an aircraft in a balanced turn, the only force remaining should be vertical with respect to the motorcycle, the z accelerometer plane, which should increase steadily as the angle of lean increases and the suspension compresses. The x accelerometer plane should show a tilt in, and then return to zero, and accelerometer y plane should show any power or braking applied.

Perhaps the x curve as the rider tilts in, could be examined afterwards to see how smooth it was, or maybe the device itself might sneer at the rider on occasion just to smoothen things out just a little more - a bit like a coach just asking a little more smoothness every now and then. Maybe all the curves could be examined in this fashion, and a "rider trainer" mode could be implemented.


The final product would (most likely) consist of a speed sensor on each wheel (like abs systems) a main electronics box to be rigidely mounted to the frame, and the indicator bargraph to be stuck anywhere in view.If you did this, you could take the differential of each wheels' speed, and develop a basic traction auditing system. You would see quite a sharp spike in the differential if either wheel took a microscopic loss of traction. In fact, the smaller the slide, the larger the differential spike.

Even further, if you too the difference of the front differential and the rear differential and wound the gain up a bit, you might end up with some interesting data - probably a squiggly little erratic line, but if the rider had a little "oops" it would be very revealing to check the graph later on, as that squiggly little line may just have a nasty big snatch in it, indicating that said "oops" was a little to close for comfort. This could perhaps be used to light an idiot light on the panel (to remain lit for some hours) to warn said idiot that both wheels WHERE IN FACT doing completely different things just *then*. You might call this idiot light a "DONT DO THAT AGAIN, SON" light. :shifty:


The device measures the cornering lean angle, as well as the g-force generated from going into a dip or over a crest, and also the bikes angle (uphil or downhill). The poll relates to the ideal realisation of the device, which would give a reliable measure of traction used, with the only exceptions being road surface and camber, which the rider is expected to see and adjust speed accordinglyIf you have a front and rear accelerometer, you might be able to predict under what circumstances the bike will misbehave badly, such as entering a bad tank slapper, and again illuminate said idiot light should they have just got thiiiiiiiiis close to provoking one. "DONT DO THAT AGAIN, SON" :shifty:

Yeah it could be a fun gadget, and I think it would increase safety. Sure, many racers have all this crap programmed into their brain, and they live on the bleeding edge of the slightest nuance of it, but we mere motals could do with a :nono: light on the dash.

disclaimer: don't rely on my maths. :confused:

Steve

[bogan]

1% is to inaccurate for a new rider....

how many new riders do you know that ride to within 1% of the limit?

For the racing applications, probably parts could be used but i think a differernt design (though using same principals) would be far better for them

[cowpoos]

how many new riders do you know that ride to within 1% of the limit?

For the racing applications, probably parts could be used but i think a differernt design (though using same principals) would be far better for them
In all honesty...I can see its use in racing....I don't see it for newbies.

I have seen newbies fall off at speeds so slow...physics wouldn;t be able to under stand it...They should stick with looking ahead and learning to feel the bike below them...not something telling them how much throttle to dial on..thats something that should be learnt from feel...not a device!! thats how skills are created!

[bogan]

I believe...that if you don't explain the finer point...we can't give you rebuttal or positive feedback...


And I still think...you a seriously underestimating the amount of forces involved..I know your a physics student...but the amount of different forces involved in a motorcycle are huge...they are a very dynamic critter [machine]....especially the suspension!

BTW...is it sensing on both wheels??

im not after a technical rebutal, rather one on the idea of the system, which so far im feeling is positive (after filtering out all the tech misgivings)

i realise the suspension does a lot of work, but its design is to keep the tyres providing an even amount of force to the ground at all times. In real world situations this force is not even of course but oscilates around the even value, but when a higher force is applied to the ground a higher amount of traction is also obtained, meaning the effect is largely (though not completely of course) negated.

[HDTboy]

I think it would be more of a gimmick than useful. Most learner riders aren't going to out-corner the traction limits of their tyres, and should be looking at where they want to go rather than a guage

[bogan]

Agreed. In fact, like an aircraft in a balanced turn, the only force remaining should be vertical with respect to the motorcycle, the z accelerometer plane, which should increase steadily as the angle of lean increases and the suspension compresses. The x accelerometer plane should show a tilt in, and then return to zero, and accelerometer y plane should show any power or braking applied.
...
disclaimer: don't rely on my maths. :confused:

Steve

thanks steve, yeh your reasoning there is sound, though it is possible to very accurately measure the cornering g-force of a leaned vehichle, that was the first problem i overcome for this project, the prototype for this part has been tested and results are good

[cowpoos]

Agreed. In fact, like an aircraft in a balanced turn, the only force remaining should be vertical with respect to the motorcycle, the z accelerometer plane, which should increase steadily as the angle of lean increases and the suspension compresses. The x accelerometer plane should show a tilt in, and then return to zero, and accelerometer y plane should show any power or braking applied

you will be missing a whole bunch of forces that a bike produces!!

[bogan]

I think it would be more of a gimmick than useful. Most learner riders aren't going to out-corner the traction limits of their tyres, and should be looking at where they want to go rather than a guage

Yeh i realise this, but sometimes it would be nice to know how much more force can be applied, my first off was an oil slick evasion at a yellow light, locked the front up before the slick as i didnt know how quickly i could actually stop, i think if id had one if these i would not have had a lock up

[CookMySock]

I have seen newbies fall off at speeds so slow...physics wouldn;t be able to under stand it...You underestimate what modern digital signal processing can sense.


They [newbies] should stick with looking ahead and learning to feel the bike below them...not something telling them how much throttle to dial on..thats something that should be learnt from feel...not a device!! thats how skills are created!But that is the hard part for newbies. Racers have that forever stamped on their brain, but newbies are completely feeling in the dark - they have no feel for, and no concept whatsoever of how far they can push it, and whether that little headshake or front-end slide they just had was safely ignorable, or whether it nearly took their life, or whether that little almost-jump they took nearly irretrievably tucked their suspension or not. A box that frowned and glared at them would be just the business.


Steve

[cowpoos]

i realise the suspension does a lot of work, but its design is to keep the tyres providing an even amount of force to the ground at all times. In real world situations this force is not even of course but oscilates around the even value, but when a higher force is applied to the ground a higher amount of traction is also obtained, meaning the effect is largely (though not completely of course) negated.

No...thats not just what suspension does...and add to that chassis geometry.
I does alot lot more...there are 500 page books avalible which will outline a fair bit of the info...but not all.

[cowpoos]

You underestimate what modern digital signal processing can sense.

You are probally right




But that is the hard part for newbies. Racers have that forever stamped on their brain, but newbies are completely feeling in the dark - they have no feel for, and no concept whatsoever of how far they can push it, and whether that little headshake or front-end slide they just had was safely ignorable, or whether it nearly took their life, or whether that little almost-jump they took nearly irretrievably tucked their suspension or not. A box that frowned and glared at them would be just the business.


Steve

I would like to reply to this properly...but it would take levels of motivation I don't have right now...I might tomorrow.

But generally...its around fear...and instinct. and how you use it...and it can be taught...with out huge amounts of drama and hassle!

[HDTboy]

hmm, i had not considered people misusing it. my thingy is not sposed to tell people if theres oil on the road, they have eyes for that!


my first off was an oil slick evasion at a yellow light, locked the front up before the slick as i didnt know how quickly i could actually stop,
By your own admission the system is useless.
ABS is already a factory option, and prevents tucking the front.

Not trying to rain on your parade, but I don't see the benefit

[CookMySock]

Say I have one of your devices and are cornering 9% from the egde, but within the +_10%. I notice your gadget is telling me I can corner harder so I push it that extra 10% and have an off, are you prepared for the legalities that would follow?Naw. If that was true, then motorcycles would come with warning labels "do not lean over - might fall!"


to explain it to you, and those without a good grasp of physics probly wouldnt get it anyway." Lets hear your maths and physics.


Yeh i realise this, but sometimes it would be nice to know how much more force can be applied, my first off was an oil slick evasion at a yellow light, locked the front up before the slick as i didnt know how quickly i could actually stop, i think if id had one if these i would not have had a lock upIf you were into the oil slick, nothing will save you there. ABS will help, but you are in the hands of the gods now.


But generally...its around fear...and instinct. and how you use it...and it can be taught...with out huge amounts of drama and hassle!For the trainer, yes. I had one idiot try to teach me paragliding, and it was abundantly clear he knew everything about paragliding, and fuck all about how to teach. According to him, it was all about how you hold your tongue, and he was completely incapable of making a concise description of anything, and he used 100% of his ability to do any demonstration, which of course only proved that us newbies might as well give up right now.

I think such a device has merit. I think it would need to be smart though - it would have to reevaluate itself constantly. The maths in the DSP would have to smart enough to detect the bikes' wriggle from wet road conditions, cold tyres, etc etc. But yeah I can't tell the difference between a harmless tyre squirm and what could develop into a dangerous slide, so bring it on.



Steve

[Starky307]

Ride by feel, not by instruments.

[bogan]

No...thats not just what suspension does...and add to that chassis geometry.
I does alot lot more...there are 500 page books avalible which will outline a fair bit of the info...but not all.

Im going to have to disagree with you there, suspension IS about providing a uniform force and grip to the road surface, that is the summary, the 500+ page books just go into detail about how this is done

[cowpoos]

Im going to have to disagree with you there, suspension IS about providing a uniform force and grip to the road surface, that is the summary, the 500+ page books just go into detail about how this is done
well...you are very very wrong.

[bogan]

well...you are very very wrong.

care to elaborate what the purpose of suspension is then?

[CookMySock]

care to elaborate what the purpose of suspension is then?You will get nowhere with that.

Build the doo-dad and lets see it. If it's going to have elaborate DSP software, consider making it GPL - you will get some high-end maths and science people get on board with it I am sure. I'm always keen to see another little black box that can think.

Steve

[bogan]

yeh still plan on building it, but dont think theres enuf intrest atm to put it on high priority, gotta finish my electric bike and other projects first

[Shaun P]

Probably a better application would be to have a lean angle data logger paired with a gps data logger so you can review the data afterwards, you wouldnt be able to look at it at max lean angle etc

[Shaun P]

unless you had a HUD haha

[LBD]

Naw. If that was true, then motorcycles would come with warning labels "do not lean over - might fall!"

Lets hear your maths and physics.



Bikes dont tell you that you are X % from the traction limit, you can corner X % harder before you have an accident....

"to explain it to you, and those without a good grasp of physics probly wouldnt get it anyway." is Bogans statement...

[cowpoos]

care to elaborate what the purpose of suspension is then?

Have a wee ponder about...what happens with the rear end of a bike...its job is not just to absorb bumbs but also to deliver traction...so

take a wheel...stick it on a lever [a flexible one]...add a hinge...110nm or torque...gearing to manipulate the torque...breaks in that torques loading [gear changes]...weight changes...differeing amounts of torque provided...and then ad bumps....oh...then forward to rear pitching via braking...momentuim...centrifical forces...changing weight distribution...friction...etc etc

and use your vast physics knowledge...and think about it. we could ad more forces too...

If you come back to me and tell me I'm wrong again. You are obviously in the wrong field of expertise.

[bogan]

Have a wee ponder about...what happens with the rear end of a bike...its job is not just to absorb bumbs but also to deliver traction...so

take a wheel...stick it on a lever [a flexible one]...add a hinge...110nm or torque...gearing to manipulate the torque...breaks in that torques loading [gear changes]...weight changes...differeing amounts of torque provided...and then ad bumps....oh...then forward to rear pitching via braking...momentuim...centrifical forces...changing weight distribution...friction...etc etc

and use your vast physics knowledge...and think about it. we could ad more forces too...

If you come back to me and tell me I'm wrong again. You are obviously in the wrong field of expertise.

youre not wrong again, just continuing to be wrong!!

yeh all that shit happens with torques and forces and whatnot, thats blindingly obvious, but you gotta understand that all that is designed to do one thing. It all contributes to a system that aims to provide a uniform amount of force to the raods surface, which generates a uniform amount of grip

[cowpoos]

youre not wrong again, just continuing to be wrong!!

yeh all that shit happens with torques and forces and whatnot, thats blindingly obvious, but you gotta understand that all that is designed to do one thing. It all contributes to a system that aims to provide a uniform amount of force to the raods surface, which generates a uniform amount of grip
jesus.....but it doesn't provide a uniform force...it can't...and it doesn't.

[bogan]

jesus.....but it doesn't provide a uniform force...it can't...and it doesn't.

look mate, unless you have even a skerrick of evidence to back up your statements, please refrain from offering technical advice to those who do know about this sort of thing

[T bone]

I'm going with starky on this, ride by feel, isn't that what riding is all about??? being pure unassited riding, no gadgets no traction control, no abs & the other BS. Your own brain can process these things better than any electronic aid. I'm not bagging your idea, but I'm still a learner rider, & if I'm mid-corner leant over there is no way I'm looking down to check if there is a light on!!! I'm too busy looking down the road for the next corner.
Personally I think you'd be better off developing a decent datalogging system with a gps. that you can download after your ride/race & look at all your inputs eg suspenion travel,steering angle, throttle input, brake pressure front/back, wheel speed, engine speed, lean angle, acceleration. even look at rider heart rate to see where you get stressed out the most.
Just my opinion though

[bogan]

I'm going with starky on this, ride by feel, isn't that what riding is all about??? being pure unassited riding, no gadgets no traction control, no abs & the other BS. Your own brain can process these things better than any electronic aid. I'm not bagging your idea, but I'm still a learner rider, & if I'm mid-corner leant over there is no way I'm looking down to check if there is a light on!!! I'm too busy looking down the road for the next corner.
Personally I think you'd be better off developing a decent datalogging system with a gps. that you can download after your ride/race & look at all your inputs eg suspenion travel,steering angle, throttle input, brake pressure front/back, wheel speed, engine speed, lean angle, acceleration. even look at rider heart rate to see where you get stressed out the most.
Just my opinion though

yeh i hear what you are saying, but there are many riders (mostly begininers) whos feel of how much harder they can push the bike is wrong, either going to hard (and falling off) or not realising they can go a bit harder (and freezing up and drifting off line or hitting obstacle etc). A little gizmo that informs the rider (after you go round a corner) of how much grip he was actually using imo would be very useful, also datalogging will be very easy to add in for those who want it.

[LBD]

look mate, unless you have even a skerrick of evidence to back up your statements, please refrain from offering technical advice to those who do know about this sort of thing

So your a physics student huh? Guess that makes you an expert....

There is a wealth of knowledge and information available on this website that you could tap into to assist with your project but you seem set on alienating all those with the knowledge, experience and intellengence best able to assist...Cloudy thinking on a clear day IMO.

[bogan]

i dont claim to be an expert, but someone who tells me im wrong and offers no explanation is just not helping.

And the purpose of this post was not to nitpick all the tech details, just to figure out whether such a device would be useful, if so then i would do all the hardout physics modelling research, if not ill give up, and if itd be somewhere in between useful and useless then ill just make it and test it as i go probly

[LBD]

Concept has some merit, but I would not want one, as I said and voted earlier.

I and many others fail to see how you could make it work with all the variables however, you are of the opinion you can, so good luck there.

My suggestion would be to patent the idea/concept then come back to those on this thread, (and others in the industry), who have offered questions and serious technical feed back, and get into a technical discussion on the matter

[mujambee]

Even if it was possible to build something like that (which I belive it is not), I can't see much use for it. A learner will always ride too far from the limits to need something like that; and when you are nearing the limits, you are far to busy to watch a gauge.




Even further, if you too the difference of the front differential and the rear differential and wound the gain up a bit, you might end up with some interesting data - probably a squiggly little erratic line, but if the rider had a little "oops" it would be very revealing to check the graph later on, as that squiggly little line may just have a nasty big snatch in it, indicating that said "oops" was a little to close for comfort. This could perhaps be used to light an idiot light on the panel (to remain lit for some hours) to warn said idiot that both wheels WHERE IN FACT doing completely different things just *then*. You might call this idiot light a "DONT DO THAT AGAIN, SON" light. :shifty:


That's what ABS and TCS have been doing for decades, nothing new there.


Your own brain can process these things better than any electronic aid.

And has much more info than any electronic device can gather.


look mate, unless you have even a skerrick of evidence to back up your statements, please refrain from offering technical advice to those who do know about this sort of thing


i dont claim to be an expert,

Yes you do

[mujambee]

Concept has some merit, but I would not want one, as I said and voted earlier.

I and many others fail to see how you could make it work with all the variables however, you are of the opinion you can, so good luck there.

My suggestion would be to patent the idea/concept then come back to those on this thread, (and others in the industry), who have offered questions and serious technical feed back, and get into a technical discussion on the matter

Really sensible, mostly agree.

However, next time you come across an innovative idea don't patent it. Just develop it. If you patent it and then spend 15 years on its development (and believe me, that's what would take you to develop something like this), you have 5 years left to get the benefit of it. Next time keep it to yourself, develop it in secret and patent it only when you have it fully develped and working. Then youll have your 20 years ahead to get the money.

[Hoon]

And the purpose of this post was not to nitpick all the tech details, just to figure out whether such a device would be useful, if so then i would do all the hardout physics modelling research, if not ill give up, and if itd be somewhere in between useful and useless then ill just make it and test it as i go probly

Yes it will be useful. Don't listen to the knockers - they are just trying to apply practical experience to theoretical knowledge which is like talking two different languages so it's only natural to resist. I know enough but not too much about both to know that grip is just a force acting against a friction (the contact patch) and that all the variables (lean, speed, bumps, dips, accel/decel) can be simplified into a vector if your model is accurate enough. If you can measure that force on the contact patch (or deduce it somehow) then theres no need to measure EVERY SINGLE VARIABLE that contributes to it - just like weighing a box instead of adding up the weights of every item inside it.

I realise that there will be some degree of error and limitations with your solution but these will only improve with more development - you gotta start somewhere!

One suggestion I would make is ditch the visual indicator and go for something audible like beeps that get closer together as you approach the limit. It'd be cool to know how braking, accelerating, weaving and throwing your weight around affects the grip available.

[CookMySock]

That's what ABS and TCS have been doing for decades, nothing new there.No. ABS and TCS are designed to watch when a wheel has skidded (past tense) and take action to unlock it, or otherwise stabilise the vehicle. A black box such as in question, can go further than that and predict just how close on the curve we came to a disaster.

In the end, "lean angle" is unimportant. My understanding is, many of not most bikes will lean right over until they scrape things, and the newbie should not really be concerned with his bike losing traction except for in slippery conditions.

There is little or no point beeping or flashing a bright warning light at the rider in the middle of some "oopsie".. that is only going to distract and alarm him right when he should be remaining cool and probably taking little or no "preventative" action at all.. But it would be useful after getting a fright, to look down at the display to discover it either smiling sweetly or glaring alarmingly at you - just like some mentor that actually DID have the knowledge to analyse your little slip-and-slide and categorize it for you - that I would buy - then I can just ride until it snarled at me, and then slow down a bit. :whistle:

Steve

[bogan]

claiming to know about something is not the same as claiming to be an expert.

thanks hoon and steve, thats exactly the idea im going for. Beeps are a good idea, though may have to increase the volume with speed or something to overcome wind noise.

Though it is important to listen to the knockers as well, as they are also target market, and some have brought up good points:
such as the misuse of the device by trying to push it right up to, or over the limits
or people relying on it to much and not developing a feel for the bike/road. Although i think these would not apply to a significant portion of riders, they still need to be taken into account.

[ducatilover]

I'll tell you what mate, you can test it on my bike. I like shiny gadgets, although I may choose to ignore it for a while so I don't base my riding on it untill a good amount of data is acquired :cool: I think it is a great idea, even to tell somebody they are too violent with the throttle and/or brakes. I would not give it 1% accuracy even if that was possible, based purely on the belief that a silly new rider would be chasing to get the lights maxed out.:weep:

[Maki]

A total and utter waste of time. A mate totaled his bike by slipping on a manhole cover. A gizmo like that would have done nothing to help. How about gravel on the road, painted lines, diesel spills, water, etc. etc. etc...?

In fact a gizmo like that would be a very bad idea because it would give new bikers the idea that they have a lot of available grip, much more than they thought. Then when the day comes that they encounter a surface that provides less grip than what they are used to they will end up on their bum with a broken bike because they slipped and the gizmo did nothing to warn them...

[bogan]

I'll tell you what mate, you can test it on my bike. I like shiny gadgets, although I may choose to ignore it for a while so I don't base my riding on it untill a good amount of data is acquired :cool: I think it is a great idea, even to tell somebody they are too violent with the throttle and/or brakes. I would not give it 1% accuracy even if that was possible, based purely on the belief that a silly new rider would be chasing to get the lights maxed out.:weep:

thanks man, ill keep that in mind for when ive done sufficient testing on my own bike.


A total and utter waste of time. A mate totaled his bike by slipping on a manhole cover. A gizmo like that would have done nothing to help. How about gravel on the road, painted lines, diesel spills, water, etc. etc. etc...?

In fact a gizmo like that would be a very bad idea because it would give new bikers the idea that they have a lot of available grip, much more than they thought. Then when the day comes that they encounter a surface that provides less grip than what they are used to they will end up on their bum with a broken bike because they slipped and the gizmo did nothing to warn them...

as stated before, the rider is responsible for avoiding bad road surfaces and obstacles, but by knowing how much traction is actually available the rider is better equiped for a quick evasion manuover. It is designed to be a training device, rather than a warning device.

[Maki]

as stated before, the rider is responsible for avoiding bad road surfaces and obstacles, but by knowing how much traction is actually available the rider is better equiped for a quick evasion manuover. It is designed to be a training device, rather than a warning device.

The point I was trying to make is that the device HAS NO WAY OF KNOWING how much traction is actually available. It depends on a number of factors and interaction between these factors. Off the top of my head I can mention, apart from water, diesel, gravel, melted asphalt, etc...

Tyre temperature.

Tyre condition

Road temperature

Road surface type

Road surface condition

Humidity

wind

Interaction between the above.

I am afraid the device would train the rider to become overconfident, resulting in problems when a sub optimal road surface is encountered.

[CookMySock]

I am afraid the device would train the rider to become overconfident, resulting in problems when a sub optimal road surface is encountered.I think you would be right. There is no replacing the human element, but I think no device could or should to claim to do this. The rider will remain responsible for detecting faulty road surfaces.


The point I was trying to make is that the device HAS NO WAY OF KNOWING how much traction is actually available.You underestimate modern electronics, digital signal processing, and software / mathematics. It is very easy to attach multiple high-definition sensors to any process whatsoever, and then spend a year writing code and applying physics and mathematics to it, and be able to pull out factoids you didn't even know where there. Take it a step further, and do detailed data logging and upload it to an <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_neural_network">Artificial neural network<a/> and watch the arcane imaginary become the truth.

Steve

[bogan]

The point I was trying to make is that the device HAS NO WAY OF KNOWING how much traction is actually available. It depends on a number of factors and interaction between these factors. Off the top of my head I can mention, apart from water, diesel, gravel, melted asphalt, etc...

Tyre temperature.

Tyre condition

Road temperature

Road surface type

Road surface condition

Humidity

wind

Interaction between the above.

I am afraid the device would train the rider to become overconfident, resulting in problems when a sub optimal road surface is encountered.

i see what you are saying, it does not know how much traction is currently available, but it does know how much is available in an ideal situation. The idea is that in knowing the ideal you can use all that traction in order to get out of a sticky situation, and scale accordingly. A similar principal to track days for riders, once they know how hard they can push thier bikes on the track (ideal conditions) they will perform better on the road. Of course its still better to do a track day and get the experience of pushing it to the limit, but you get the idea.

[cowpoos]

it does not know how much traction is currently available,

Right...you do have a fraction of a brain after all...telling me I didn't know what I was talking about...and you admit it won't have a clue yourself....what a fucking know all arsehole!!


but it does know how much is available in an ideal situation.

No it can't...and it won't!! if you could predict this...you would be one of the richest people in the world of motorsports...

Its a shame you don't understand the physics involved in Motorcycle dynamics...COCK!!

[cowpoos]

You underestimate modern electronics, digital signal processing, and software / mathematics. It is very easy to attach multiple high-definition sensors to any process whatsoever, and then spend a year writing code and applying physics and mathematics to it, and be able to pull out factoids you didn't even know where there. Take it a step further, and do detailed data logging and upload it to an <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_neural_network">Artificial neural network<a/> and watch the arcane imaginary become the truth.

Steve

currently...there is high level data logging on motorcycles/cars,etc...they do produce alot of incredible data...but a human still decides how to use it to make chassis and suspension changes [and wing changes in car racing]...
No computer program yet can setup a bike or car anywhere near aswell as a human with good data!!

[bogan]

Right...you do have a fraction of a brain after all...telling me I didn't know what I was talking about...and you admit it won't have a clue yourself....what a fucking know all arsehole!!



No it can't...and it won't!! if you could predict this...you would be one of the richest people in the world of motorsports...

Its a shame you don't understand the physics involved in Motorcycle dynamics...COCK!!

before you start throwing insults around willy nilly, actually read the thread with the intention of understanding it, rather than with the intention of picking holes and trying too make yourself sound smart. I realise im not the best at explaining tech details but all the info is there if you try to understand it, quite a few others have got the idea of it.

[Squiggles]

I have to ask, do you think it is really going to be able to help people? New people in particular, when & where would it be used?

[mujambee]

No. ABS and TCS are designed to watch when a wheel has skidded (past tense) and take action to unlock it, or otherwise stabilise the vehicle. A black box such as in question, can go further than that and predict just how close on the curve we came to a disaster.


You underestimate modern electronics, digital signal processing, and software / mathematics... ;)

Traction does not go away suddenly. It takes time (as short as a fraction of a second, but time anyway). Say you are braking hard on your front wheel. Both wheels are spining at the same speed, but at a certain point, when you are about to loose it, the front wheel starts spinning slower than the rear. At that point the ABS will release some pressure on the brakes and the wheel will (hopefully) start spinning again. But the system won't wait for the wheel to stop, that may be too late.

Even if the wheel looses all traction instantly (say you enter an ice pool), it has some inertia so it needs time to stop. And you know the time a microprocessor needs to read two signals, compare them and activate an output.

[mujambee]

To bogan:

Please read carefully what I'm going to write, and believe that this is in good faith and with a true intention of helping you.

You had an idea, did some preliminary testing and came here asking if people would buy your device.

At the moment of this writing, 25 out of 46 voters answered NO. You say your next step is going to cost you some money, so you need to be sure before you take it. Only 12 of those 46 voters would buy it, and most people is far more enthusiast about a new thingie when they read about it on the Internet than when it comes to paying for it.

And many people has told you that they don't believe you could achieve your goal.

If I where you, I would give up this and start a new project. Your money is not making you rich, and probably won't even pay back.

[Hoon]

I disagree. The idea definately has potential. A lot of people can't understand how it would work and have based their descision on that which has skewed the results of the vote. Also some seem to have taken offence that an unknown PhD student could dare proclaim he knows more about the subject than regular forum members and now these members would like nothing more than to see him fail.

Yes your sales pitch needs a lot of work but aside from that your idea has potential. Sure I can see a few issues but nothing that couldn't be resolved with some effort. If people were to give up that easily without even trying we'd still be living in caves.

[CookMySock]

Reminder: KB is an arsehole filter. Whatever you say is going to irritate some arsehole somewhere, and then said arsehole is going to bash you for it.

Checklist:

Is a public bulletin board, situation is normal - proceed

Check self - not actually getting bashed. all good!

Apply neg rep as required

Report abuse to moderators - not your problem

Add arsehole to ignore list

Continue enjoying thread - as you were.



Steve

[Squiggles]

yeh i hear what you are saying, but there are many riders (mostly begininers) whos feel of how much harder they can push the bike is wrong, either going to hard (and falling off) or not realising they can go a bit harder (and freezing up and drifting off line or hitting obstacle etc). A little gizmo that informs the rider (after you go round a corner) of how much grip he was actually using imo would be very useful, also datalogging will be very easy to add in for those who want it.

While there are some places that might be useful, but is currently banned? (datalogging at the track?). Im not sure as to the ideas potential in real time, If a newbie is hitting the brakes hard to avoid t-boning a car, the last place he needs to be looking is at a series of flashing lights on the dash telling him to brake harder. After the event sure, he can tell if he didnt go hard enough, but during?

[duckonin]

Eyes are for the road not to look at or be distracted by Gizzzzzzmo's....Half the problem on the road now is distraction...Imagine going a mite hot into a corner watching a green or red light haha no time left we all know how quick shit happens...

Lands and Survey bought Toyotas years back with a roll a meter, the shepherds used to watch the lean or bank angle and wondered why they had to walk home:shit:...Just my thoughts

[bogan]

to those saying it wont work cos you shouldnt look at it during a corning or braking, i ahve already stated that it will store the max value of traction used, and show this for a time after the corner, or braking event, also hoon has come up with the idee of using a beeper for real time monitoring.


At the moment of this writing, 25 out of 46 voters answered NO. You say your next step is going to cost you some money, so you need to be sure before you take it. Only 12 of those 46 voters would buy it, and most people is far more enthusiast about a new thingie when they read about it on the Internet than when it comes to paying for it.

12/46 is about 25%, 25% of riders is quite a lot, even 10% of riders would be enough, also i beleive after people use this thing they will realise how usefull it could be and so will thier mates!


And many people has told you that they don't believe you could achieve your goal.

yeh they have, but so far the only reason i have been given, is you cant make that, motorbikes are real complicated.


Yes your sales pitch needs a lot of work but aside from that your idea has potential. Sure I can see a few issues but nothing that couldn't be resolved with some effort. If people were to give up that easily without even trying we'd still be living in caves.

yeh, i know im not good at explaining things like this, will be way easier to do a proper sales pitch once i actually make it though.

[LBD]

I disagree. The idea definately has potential. A lot of people can't understand how it would work and have based their descision on that which has skewed the results of the vote. Also some seem to have taken offence that an unknown PhD student could dare proclaim he knows more about the subject than regular forum members and now these members would like nothing more than to see him fail.
.

First half) you are right, and I have said it before the concept may have potential, but by failing to explain how the results are generated he has raised a lot of questions including from my self. The questions are not to knock but to provide him with feed back to hopefully minimise the chances of an expensive cock up or as some have done, come up with some good ideas. Only a fool will ignore a potentially good invention through a lack of knowledge of the facts.

Second half) I am by far a much more intellegent, knowedgelable experienced in the fields of all sciences and mechanics and quantum physics/mathmatics and medicine and literature and philosophy than everyone else at kb who are just a bunch of imbiciles and, just like Bogun, I am not going to substantiate this claim, you just have to beleive me. Meanwhile I have just found a full proof skin cancer prevention and am about to embarke on a mission to extinguish the Sun...Future generations with thank me and lawd me as a heroic pioneer....Any one care to advise me of my error in judgment...?

For heavens sake Bogun do something about your delivery style and stop turning people against you....just ignore those coments you don't want, dont turn around and arogantly insult people. You will get much further in life working with people and you will get much further in your work if you have people who will work with you....

Thats my Rant for the week....

[CookMySock]

If a newbie is hitting the brakes hard to avoid t-boning a car, the last place he needs to be looking is at a series of flashing lights on the dash telling him to brake harder. After the event sure, he can tell if he didnt go hard enough, but during?I agree all riders should be concentrating on steering and/or braking during a "situation."

There should be no warning lights and bells until everything is cool some seconds later, at which point the unit should be giving the rider either a sweet smile or an angry glare - they can do the maths on those and figure out which means which. :yes:

Even a wee tyre squiggle or tiny slippy-slide in the wet could be categorized in the same way. Either "you can quite likely ignore things like that" or "DONT do that again, son." Just keep riding on the green light and let the software grow with the riders' ability.

It could be a great learner device IMO. It would need to grow with the rider, or have profiles for different bikes and riders, as different combinations would "feel" completely different to the software.

It will be the ongoing software development that lets it down, which is why I initially suggested a GPL license.

Steve

[bogan]

For heavens sake Bogun do something about your delivery style and stop turning people against you....just ignore those coments you don't want, dont turn around and arogantly insult people. You will get much further in life working with people and you will get much further in your work if you have people who will work with you....

I apologise if i have insulted anyone, it was not my intention. Though coming from the academic community i tend to expect an explanation when someone tells me im wrong

[CookMySock]

I apologise if i have insulted anyone, it was not my intention. Though coming from the academic community i tend to expect an explanation when someone tells me im wrongForget all that crap or it will eat you up inside. ;)

Go build the fucker. :scooter:

Steve

[Squiggles]

I apologise if i have insulted anyone, it was not my intention. Though coming from the academic community i tend to expect an explanation when someone tells me im wrong

Give us the current ideas for the device, i.e. an update on the first post ;)
Correct me, but it looks like you're aiming for an ABS-like system (without of course, the data being acted on by the device)... As a question, would you be confident in such a device then controlling braking efforts (technicalities aside)?

[Ecclesnz]

There should be no warning lights and bells until everything is cool some seconds later, at which point the unit should be giving the rider either a sweet smile or an angry glare - they can do the maths on those and figure out which means which. :yes:
Steve

Why is it I can picture some pocket rocket rider cocking it up in a corner, high siding it down the road, coming to a stop and then looking at their bike, which has a little grumpy face lit up on the dash saying "Bad Boy, Don't Do That Again".

Personally I wouldn't use something like this. But that's just my personal preference. As it has been explained it would be a "one size fits all" type gizmo. I ride a 22 year old 650 single cylinder cruiser. Where I sit on the bike is very different from those on most other style of bikes (personal choice), this can throw the physics way off as I understand. Cornering for me is very different and on a crotch rocket which will have infinitely more grip.

Perhaps if there were different profiles available as mentioned that would help. However what you are suggesting could in fact be more suited for the track as others have recommended. Simply because most of the bikes are fairly similar in set up and tyres used and such. Less variance in equipment being used, narrower range of results hopefully.

You say this device is targeted towards new riders to help them learn, but you are saying also that the rider will have to self evaluate a lot to compensate for diferent road conditions, tyres, weather etc. Slightly contradictory there.

Now I'm not knocking the device at all, if you want to build it, go build it. As long as you're not doing it in my garage I am not worried. However there has been some good info provided by those you might see as against your project. These people could in fact be some of your best resource if you can get them involved and get everyone communicating.

That's my thoughts anyway.

[BMWST?]

i dont see it as being of much use unless it can give an approximation of the actual traction available,rather than the ultimate traction available.If you have someone pushing hard and the back wheel is actually periodically stopping as the back wheel hops of the ground in braking,how could that be compensated for in comparing front and rear wheel speeds?

[LBD]

Why is it I can picture some pocket rocket rider cocking it up in a corner, high siding it down the road, coming to a stop and then looking at their bike, which has a little grumpy face lit up on the dash saying "Bad Boy, Don't Do That Again".

.

I am more worried about the scenario same as above but a little smiley face saying you only used 62% of available traction on that last corner...

[Ecclesnz]

I am more worried about the scenario same as above but a little smiley face saying you only used 62% of available traction on that last corner...

That's a very valid point.

In all honesty I don't want my bike making any faces at me.

[bogan]

Why is it I can picture some pocket rocket rider cocking it up in a corner, high siding it down the road, coming to a stop and then looking at their bike, which has a little grumpy face lit up on the dash saying "Bad Boy, Don't Do That Again".

Personally I wouldn't use something like this. But that's just my personal preference. As it has been explained it would be a "one size fits all" type gizmo. I ride a 22 year old 650 single cylinder cruiser. Where I sit on the bike is very different from those on most other style of bikes (personal choice), this can throw the physics way off as I understand. Cornering for me is very different and on a crotch rocket which will have infinitely more grip.

Perhaps if there were different profiles available as mentioned that would help. However what you are suggesting could in fact be more suited for the track as others have recommended. Simply because most of the bikes are fairly similar in set up and tyres used and such. Less variance in equipment being used, narrower range of results hopefully.

You say this device is targeted towards new riders to help them learn, but you are saying also that the rider will have to self evaluate a lot to compensate for diferent road conditions, tyres, weather etc. Slightly contradictory there.

Now I'm not knocking the device at all, if you want to build it, go build it. As long as you're not doing it in my garage I am not worried. However there has been some good info provided by those you might see as against your project. These people could in fact be some of your best resource if you can get them involved and get everyone communicating.

That's my thoughts anyway.

the plan is to have different tyre profiles stored in it, which would go a long way to customising it for different bikes, as physics wise (and as far as ideal traction is concerned) a bike is just a weight on two tyres (im probly gonna cop some flak for saying that;), but as a simple model and in ideal road conditions its valid).

im a bit doubtful of its use on the track, cos expert track riders push hard enough to make the bike lose traction (just a little bit) then correct for it, so they already know the limits. Also im not even sure if it would be against the rules or not.

Yeh is mainly designed for new or casual riders who dont push to the limit, and have little idea on what the bike is actually capable of, so this would tell them how much mor grip they actually have available. For example, a new rider may go hard on the brakes and do an e-stop in 70m, but only use 50% of the traction available though he would think hes using almost all of it, now add the gizmo and he will use a lot more traction and stop in 55m, now in an emergency stop 15m could be a lot of difference. The flips side to that is of course when conditions are poor, and he thinks he can go harder and asses off, so far all ive come up with is that he has to look at the road surface and take it easy if it looks dubious. Though i have thought of the brake test for traction finding (will update the first post with details of this soon).

[bogan]

Give us the current ideas for the device, i.e. an update on the first post ;)
Correct me, but it looks like you're aiming for an ABS-like system (without of course, the data being acted on by the device)... As a question, would you be confident in such a device then controlling braking efforts (technicalities aside)?

have updated the first post, and qouted here


Ive been toying with the idea of an electronic training device to help riders learn the limits by displaying the amount of traction being used in any given situation.

What it does is takes sensor data from the bike and works out all the net forces acting on the bike, it also calculates the weight distribution on each wheel. Using the cornering g-force, acceleration/decelleration forces, weight distributions, crest/dip forces, etc, it calculates the percentage of traction currently being used for each wheel and displays the highest one.

The value it uses for this maximum amount of traction is calculated using a number of constants which are programmed into the system, these are programed for each bike it is on. They include weight, rider and bike, tyre profile and friction co-efficient (can be found with two sets of scales).

What it cant do is sense the road conditions, potholes gravel, oil, wet, camber, the rider is responsible to back off if the road is slippery.

The display is currently under review, an LED bargraph is used in the current prototype, which shows the percentage scale in realtime, and records the max percentage used round a corner which it then displays after the corner for rider review. Other suggestions have been to use a beeper, beeps faster the more traction you use, and also to do datalogging in conjunction with GPS data.

The working idea of it is that it provides riders with a measure of the upper limit of traction they have available, (kind of like an intense track day would do, only without the practical experience obviously). For example, if a rider did a quick stop in 70m thinking he was using most of the traction, then put this gismo on the bike and found he could use a lot more, when he next did an emergency stop he could stop in 55m, thus being safer. There would be similar benifits while cornering and accelerating. The bit where this doesnt work is when the road conditions are poor, if he tried getting close to the gizmos idea of traction he would lock up, so the rider is still responsible for noticing porr road conditions and adjusting speeds and stopping force.

There is also the possiblity of a brak test to find the available traction, this would mean the rider rides along and locks up the rear wheel, the gizmo would then examine the deceleration needed and work out the force required to lock it up, and thus calculate the current road friction co-efficient, but again this would still not solve the problem of potholes, gravel spots, and oil slicks, though it would take care of different road quality and wet roads.

Your thoughts on this idea?

I would be confident in the system controlling the maximum amount of throttle applied (to stop skids, wheelstands, and high/low sides). However at this point im unsure whether it would be wise to control the brakes, as the stakes for a cock-up are a lot higher. Used in conjunction with a standard wheel speed differential abs system could improve braking though, as the ABS could be "warned" to look out for a lock up at a certain brake force, thus be quicker to respond to said lock up.

[2wheeldrifter]

Think it would easier just have a whole motogp pitcrew with at all times when riding.....

But really what do these guys test when testing... do they have one of these?????

[CookMySock]

If you have someone pushing hard and the back wheel is actually periodically stopping as the back wheel hops of the ground in braking,how could that be compensated for in comparing front and rear wheel speeds?If you sampled and graphed this particular situation, and then did all sorts of other mathematics on it, it could be examined and classified as risky or not. Red light or green light.


the plan is to have different tyre profiles stored in it, which would go a long way to customising it for different bikes, as physics wise (and as far as ideal traction is concerned) a bike is just a weight on two tyres (im probly gonna cop some flak for saying that;), but as a simple model and in ideal road conditions its valid).Perhaps you would be better served to ignore that, and just watch for situations that you can diagnose as risky, for example, tail slides past point(x,y,z), nose slides past point(x,y,z) && dt/dv(tip in velocity) exceeds n. Alarm for these conditions, and then bump the systems tolerance up ever so slightly, so next time it doesn't alarm so readily, (ie it happened this time and we're still upright!)

It's a bit like checking fingerprints for known criminals.


im a bit doubtful of its use on the track, cos expert track riders push hard enough to make the bike lose traction (just a little bit) then correct for it, so they already know the limits.Yes but that is exactly what DSP can analyze for you. Was that slide close to the limit or not?

I think for braking, you will be hard pressed to beat ABS. It's pretty clear when too much front brake was "too much" and really you need ABS to rectify it pronto. A red light on the dash is too late. I think many riders are more concerned with cornering rather than braking. Maybe it could scream at you if you were too hard on the brakes.


I would be confident in the system controlling the maximum amount of throttle applied (to stop skids, wheelstands, and high/low sides).I don't think you should use it to wrap the rider in cotton wool. I think you you should use it to inform the rider if what they are doing is pushing the boundaries. A bike that won't do as it's asked because of some kid-glove electronics will just be irritating. Conversely, a bike that talks to you and either reassures or warns you, helps you grow as a rider.


However at this point im unsure whether it would be wise to control the brakes, as the stakes for a cock-up are a lot higher. Used in conjunction with a standard wheel speed differential abs system could improve braking though, as the ABS could be "warned" to look out for a lock up at a certain brake force, thus be quicker to respond to said lock up.You could operate the system in tandem with ABS, independent of it or otherwise. It would not permit the rider to explore that territory with his brakes - is this what you want? Is this what he wants? Do you want to help the rider grow as a rider, or prevent it?

Steve

[Hoon]

There is also the possiblity of a brak test to find the available traction, this would mean the rider rides along and locks up the rear wheel, the gizmo would then examine the deceleration needed and work out the force required to lock it up, and thus calculate the current road friction co-efficient

Nice. One of the questions I had was how would you know how much grip the tyre has to start off with in the first place so this kind of answers that. The contact patch (and maximum available grip) also changes depending on how much weight/force is applied so if your model is clever enough you could use that sample and extrapolate the data to calculate the contact patch size across all forces and lean angles.

Telemetry mode in Forza Motorsport 2 is a great example of how grip changes and can be calculated and displayed realtime in a perfect world.

Forza Motorsport 2 telemetry(fast forward to 0:26s) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5NgP6pjqy4)

The green circle grows/shrinks as grip changes due to weight. The force acting on it is the line in the centre, when the line goes outside the circle then traction is exceeded.

[ManDownUnder]

It's a great idea but I can't see how it could be done...

That said - I don't understand a lot of stuff - doesn't mean it's going to fail.

I'm a fan of the simplest solution probably being the best... in this case training wheels or a stunt cage on a bike in a carpark.

[bogan]

If you sampled and graphed this particular situation, and then did all sorts of other mathematics on it, it could be examined and classified as risky or not. Red light or green light.

Perhaps you would be better served to ignore that, and just watch for situations that you can diagnose as risky, for example, tail slides past point(x,y,z), nose slides past point(x,y,z) && dt/dv(tip in velocity) exceeds n. Alarm for these conditions, and then bump the systems tolerance up ever so slightly, so next time it doesn't alarm so readily, (ie it happened this time and we're still upright!)

It's a bit like checking fingerprints for known criminals.

Yes but that is exactly what DSP can analyze for you. Was that slide close to the limit or not?

I think for braking, you will be hard pressed to beat ABS. It's pretty clear when too much front brake was "too much" and really you need ABS to rectify it pronto. A red light on the dash is too late. I think many riders are more concerned with cornering rather than braking. Maybe it could scream at you if you were too hard on the brakes.

I don't think you should use it to wrap the rider in cotton wool. I think you you should use it to inform the rider if what they are doing is pushing the boundaries. A bike that won't do as it's asked because of some kid-glove electronics will just be irritating. Conversely, a bike that talks to you and either reassures or warns you, helps you grow as a rider.

You could operate the system in tandem with ABS, independent of it or otherwise. It would not permit the rider to explore that territory with his brakes - is this what you want? Is this what he wants? Do you want to help the rider grow as a rider, or prevent it?

Steve

rear wheel hop could be easily identified, whether its something to worry about is another question, probably not in most cases, as long as its still contacting the ground periodically and the front has plenty of grip left i would say the bike is still stable.

hmmm yes it could also calculate how risky a slide was, and learn grip/handlng factors from that. The original idea was to prevent the rider getting that far, but i see no reaosn why it cant do both.

Yeh i definetely agree it wont beat abs, but how many bikes come with abs these days, it is getting more and more common in newer bikes, but older ones dont have it and these are what a lot of learners start on.

I wouldnt say controlling the throttle is wrapping the rider in cotton wool, as the system would only limit the throttle in order to prevent a crash, not in any other situation. And of course if youre a good enuf rider not to want it interfereing at all, it would be available without the cotton wool option.

Personally i dont think abs should be activated unless the wheel is actually skidding, the system could warn the abs that it is probly gonna skid soon so look for any hint of skidding, but im not sure whether that would be any benifit over the current abs systems, ive never rode one but i hear they are very fast acting.

Thanks Hoon, that forza 2 example is exactly what im trying to do, but for bikes.

[Malcolm]

I don't want to come in here like a jackass and tell you this isn't going to work...but I really don't think it's going to work.

I'm not sure if you've ever seen force & moment data for tyres (such as that generated from the Calspan TIRF facility), but each tyre varies hugely in the way it behaves. Even if you made some broad characterisations of tyres based on construction type, dimensions, inflation pressure, temperature, age etc, you still wouldn't be able to work out the effective coefficient of friction due to variations in the road surface. The most effective way I could see would be to use a slip angle sensor front and rear (look them up, currently these things cost so much that owning them is out of the range of all but the highest budget racing teams, although some experiments have been done on using optical sensors from mice). This is still not a lot of good if you don't know the slip angle limits of the tyre.

On another note, all the calculations that you're talking about, and logging from all the required sensors etc, is going to require immense computational power/speed - have you ever priced up a data-logging system such as a motec ADL2? You're looking at around $6k for a basic system before buying accelerometers or the other sensors it sounds like you'll need - and that doesn't even include the price of a processor to perform the VERY complex calculations you'll be needing to do hundreds of times a second.

It's a nice idea, I just think it's really financially impractical based on current technologies

[bogan]

I don't want to come in here like a jackass and tell you this isn't going to work...but I really don't think it's going to work.

I'm not sure if you've ever seen force & moment data for tyres (such as that generated from the Calspan TIRF facility), but each tyre varies hugely in the way it behaves. Even if you made some broad characterisations of tyres based on construction type, dimensions, inflation pressure, temperature, age etc, you still wouldn't be able to work out the effective coefficient of friction due to variations in the road surface. The most effective way I could see would be to use a slip angle sensor front and rear (look them up, currently these things cost so much that owning them is out of the range of all but the highest budget racing teams, although some experiments have been done on using optical sensors from mice). This is still not a lot of good if you don't know the slip angle limits of the tyre.

On another note, all the calculations that you're talking about, and logging from all the required sensors etc, is going to require immense computational power/speed - have you ever priced up a data-logging system such as a motec ADL2? You're looking at around $6k for a basic system before buying accelerometers or the other sensors it sounds like you'll need - and that doesn't even include the price of a processor to perform the VERY complex calculations you'll be needing to do hundreds of times a second.

It's a nice idea, I just think it's really financially impractical based on current technologies

Just had a google for the Calspan TIRF data but cant find any, would be a useful to look at by the sounds of it, anyone got a link? All the variations in the tyre behavious was why i wasnt planning on using it for racing, by measuring slips etc it may be able to learn rnough to be effective, but thats still not where i plan to focus. The basci theory was if a human can sense how fast it is possible to go round corners (without knowing all the finer points of tyre wall flex, and tyre temperature etc) then a computer system should be able to do it as well. Its not sposed to know the exact limits to 0.01%, just to give newbies an idea of how much traction is still available to them.

The computing stuff can easily be done by a single board computer, the new intel atom will be quite sufficient, with the increase in computer speed you dont have to buy the hardware specially made for the job anymore, generally any pc will do!

[Malcolm]

noone really publishes tyre data, it's extremely expensive to create - there are some generalised plots in vehicle dynamics books (such as Race Car Vehicle Dynamics by Milliken and Milliken) - I've never seen anything on motorbike tyres to know how they behave.

I think you're underestimating just how awesome humans are in terms of sensing stuff. The human is an extremely complex system of accelerometers, gyros, force and pressure transducers, optical and audio sensors all interlinked with powerful and precise actuators that create complex feedback based on actions.

I'm going to step back on the computing power side of it, because it's not an area I know a lot about. I am however currently playing with lap simulation software and have found it to process something like 10 times faster than real time - but that's without having to take readings from analogue sensors hundreds of times a second.

I was going to post a list of all the assumptions that you're going to have to make in order to create a model. I can't decide if it's a cunty thing to do, so I'm just going to start with a few.

So, you want to estimate coefficient of friction of a tyre based on a brake test, you'll either need to know or assume:
Mass of bike
Mass of rider
Centre of gravity position of bike
Centre of gravity position of rider (and assume he doesn't move.....)
Friction coefficient load sensitivity of tyres (and assume a curve shape for it, because it's not even close to linear)
Ellipse ratio of tyres - that is the ratio of max lateral force to max longitudinal force (this and the load sensitivity will give you the most crude tyre model that would allow you to estimate available force within 5%)
Wheel rate of front and rear suspension (to allow you to estimate forces in the highly dynamic scenario of braking), this could be calculated if you have suspension displacement pots
Damping ratios, front and rear, along with the force/velocity curves (I don't know how you'd get these without a shock dyno)
The values of anti-dive/lift that the suspension has designed into it

So, with the above you could potentially work out a coefficient of friction correction factor for the front tyre for the surface the test is performed on. We still have no idea about the rear tyre so we'll have to guess that I suppose. Let's try and apply it to going around a corner

First we'll need to correct the coefficient of friction for temperature, if the rider did the brake test on colder tyres the grip levels will have changed. You could assume it's negligible or characterise a temp vs friction curve and measure temp with an IR tyre pyrometer (solidstateracing.com has them for around $300NZ)
Next, we need to know what NORMAL load is on the tyre. We're going to have to assume the rider hasn't changed his CoG since the brake test, then we can use an accelerometer to work out loads. This gives us an estimate of lateral/longtudinal force that the tyre can currently supply
Then, we need to know how much longitudinal force the tyres are generating. This is going to be hard - we can assume a split based on mass distribution for lateral, but not for longitudinal. We can use an accelerometer to work out the total longtidunal acceleration, but unless it's a positive value (accelerating rather than braking), we can't easily tell which wheel is causing the deceleration. This is where stuff gets tricky - we could look at brake pressures, but that wont help is the bike is engine braking, or getting some drive from the idle. Not sure how you'll solve this one, but it needs to be solved because you can't ignore the effects of combined braking/cornering on the force a tyre can produce.

Let's say you've got the above sorted - it's all very nice but we've still got some big assumptions to cover.
Road camber - We could ignore this, but I think that would be a bad idea because I'll bet off-camber corners are to blame for numerous crashes. We can get road camber using 2 optical proximity sensors on the bottom of the bike, spaced a known distance apart, provided we also know the lean angle of the bike relative to horizontal.
Surface irregularities - you've stated earlier that suspension is supposed to maintain constant force on the tyres, and therefore you can neglect this. Hmmm. When you hit a bump there is an increase in normal force on the tyre - this force accelerates the unsprung mass and compresses springs and pushes fluid around in the dampers. It also accelerates the sprung mass by some amount. The amount the force increases by is not particularly easy to work out, infact it's damn hard. The amount it decreases by on the other side of the bump, as the wheel is returning to normal position - that's the real problem, and that's where you're going to lose grip. The force variation is dependant on: sprung mass, unsprung mass, spring rates (and motion ratio), damping force/velocity curves, tyre spring rate, tyre damping, and any hysterisys in the system due to friction (and probably more stuff I don't know). To give you an idea of the magnitude of these forces, you'll probably see a peak force on a good bump that's around 2 to 3 times greater than the force riding over smooth surfaces

There's more assumptions that are going to introduce error into your system, but I'm not here to berate you.

Now, as a final note -have you been tallying up the costs of the sensors listed above, and the time to install and calibrate them correctly onto the bike?

[Benk]

Hahahaha, just had a read of this thread. Fucking hilarious. Cheers for the laughs guys :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

[bogan]

I think you're underestimating just how awesome humans are in terms of sensing stuff. The human is an extremely complex system of accelerometers, gyros, force and pressure transducers, optical and audio sensors all interlinked with powerful and precise actuators that create complex feedback based on actions.

So, you want to estimate coefficient of friction of a tyre based on a brake test, you'll either need to know or assume:
Mass of bike
Mass of rider
Centre of gravity position of bike
Centre of gravity position of rider (and assume he doesn't move.....)
Friction coefficient load sensitivity of tyres (and assume a curve shape for it, because it's not even close to linear)
Ellipse ratio of tyres - that is the ratio of max lateral force to max longitudinal force (this and the load sensitivity will give you the most crude tyre model that would allow you to estimate available force within 5%)
Wheel rate of front and rear suspension (to allow you to estimate forces in the highly dynamic scenario of braking), this could be calculated if you have suspension displacement pots
Damping ratios, front and rear, along with the force/velocity curves (I don't know how you'd get these without a shock dyno)
The values of anti-dive/lift that the suspension has designed into it

So, with the above you could potentially work out a coefficient of friction correction factor for the front tyre for the surface the test is performed on. We still have no idea about the rear tyre so we'll have to guess that I suppose. Let's try and apply it to going around a corner

First we'll need to correct the coefficient of friction for temperature, if the rider did the brake test on colder tyres the grip levels will have changed. You could assume it's negligible or characterise a temp vs friction curve and measure temp with an IR tyre pyrometer (solidstateracing.com has them for around $300NZ)
Next, we need to know what NORMAL load is on the tyre. We're going to have to assume the rider hasn't changed his CoG since the brake test, then we can use an accelerometer to work out loads. This gives us an estimate of lateral/longtudinal force that the tyre can currently supply
Then, we need to know how much longitudinal force the tyres are generating. This is going to be hard - we can assume a split based on mass distribution for lateral, but not for longitudinal. We can use an accelerometer to work out the total longtidunal acceleration, but unless it's a positive value (accelerating rather than braking), we can't easily tell which wheel is causing the deceleration. This is where stuff gets tricky - we could look at brake pressures, but that wont help is the bike is engine braking, or getting some drive from the idle. Not sure how you'll solve this one, but it needs to be solved because you can't ignore the effects of combined braking/cornering on the force a tyre can produce.

Let's say you've got the above sorted - it's all very nice but we've still got some big assumptions to cover.
Road camber - We could ignore this, but I think that would be a bad idea because I'll bet off-camber corners are to blame for numerous crashes. We can get road camber using 2 optical proximity sensors on the bottom of the bike, spaced a known distance apart, provided we also know the lean angle of the bike relative to horizontal.
Surface irregularities - you've stated earlier that suspension is supposed to maintain constant force on the tyres, and therefore you can neglect this. Hmmm. When you hit a bump there is an increase in normal force on the tyre - this force accelerates the unsprung mass and compresses springs and pushes fluid around in the dampers. It also accelerates the sprung mass by some amount. The amount the force increases by is not particularly easy to work out, infact it's damn hard. The amount it decreases by on the other side of the bump, as the wheel is returning to normal position - that's the real problem, and that's where you're going to lose grip. The force variation is dependant on: sprung mass, unsprung mass, spring rates (and motion ratio), damping force/velocity curves, tyre spring rate, tyre damping, and any hysterisys in the system due to friction (and probably more stuff I don't know). To give you an idea of the magnitude of these forces, you'll probably see a peak force on a good bump that's around 2 to 3 times greater than the force riding over smooth surfaces

There's more assumptions that are going to introduce error into your system, but I'm not here to berate you.

Now, as a final note -have you been tallying up the costs of the sensors listed above, and the time to install and calibrate them correctly onto the bike?

I realise the human system is very good at sensing data, but the brain has to process the data to decide what was actually a safe speed or not, for a rider that has never been close to the limit of traction they will have no idea what those limits are, and could be grossly over/underestimating them, this system is designed to provide an approximation of those limits to the rider.

For the list of assumptions, it is simple to get all of them except for the suspension stuff, which i am leaving out of the model and assuming ideal road surface conditions for the initial design. This is because suspension action is closely related to the roads surface parameters, which we cannot know without expensive sensors, and i want to see what can be done without getting too carried away with expensive sensors. Im well aware it may be extremely limited without them, but it also may not.

The system is designed for road use so i think the temperature change could be ignored, or assumed ambient + a few degrees.

The longitudinal acceleration is one of the bigger possible grey areas, but for cornering the system should be able to judge between a slight engine braking and a brake being applied, and assign the force values to the tyres accordingly. (can also easily be wired to the front/rear brake light sensors too)

The road camber and surface irregularities technically are neglected by the system (as it is too difficult to reliably sense these). But i didnt say they could be neglected in calculating the actual traction available, the device calculates the maximum traction available in normal conditions (no camber, no bumps, no slippery spot or wetness) and the rider is responsible for seeing this and adjusting speed to compensate.
It is worth noting with respect to the surface irregularities that while you do get big force spikes etc, the suspension is designed to limit the effect these actually have on traction, its still there of course but not greatly reduced from the 2-3 times felt at the wheel.

One of the constraints i put on the system was to limit the cost and number of sensors needed on the bike, another reason why suspension and road surface is not sensed.

On another note im starting to think that an intermediate step would probably be a good idea, so i will probably try and create some modeling software and get a better idea of just how much all these factors (which i belive will not generate significant error) actually contribute to the system, just to make sure;)

[bogan]

Hahahaha, just had a read of this thread. Fucking hilarious. Cheers for the laughs guys :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

alway happy to increase the lols :lol:

[CookMySock]

The sensors and other hardware is dead cheap. Its the thousands of hours coding and doing the maths that will hurt. Maybe as you say - start off installing cheap accellerometers and high-resolution ADCs, and harrass the chassis a little and see what humps you can make appear in the graphs.

I think the road surface, suspension, and tyres can be ignored. What will be telling are the little sideways slide-recover-slide events.

edit: http://www.google.co.nz/search?q=dspic

Steve

[bogan]

The sensors and other hardware is dead cheap. Its the thousands of hours coding and doing the maths that will hurt. Maybe as you say - start off installing cheap accellerometers and high-resolution ADCs, and harrass the chassis a little and see what humps you can make appear in the graphs.
Steve

yeh the stuff ive got on the first one (essentially a lean angle indicator) cost about $30, and displays the cornering g-force fairly accurately

[alanzs]

You could build a device, so that it watched how you were cornering, and if you gave it a fright it could stand the bike up for you - thereby saving you the bother. That would be easy to build, and you could have it err on the side of "safety" (sic).

Steve

You could just put side cars on both sides of the bike? Would that be a trike? ;)

[Malcolm]

ok well, while I'm still in strong disagreement with a lot of what you've said, it's obvious that you've made up your mind and wont be convinced otherwise. Good luck with the system - stubborness is something you'll definitely need if you're going to make it successful.

[bogan]

ok well, while I'm still in strong disagreement with a lot of what you've said, it's obvious that you've made up your mind and wont be convinced otherwise. Good luck with the system - stubborness is something you'll definitely need if you're going to make it successful.

Im not trying to be pigheaded about this, but the fact is there are very few facts on this subject out there, so all ive got to go on is personal opinion, of which i favour my own of course!

If you guys are right, itll still be interesting to see (and quantify) just what effect all the different factors actually have on traction.

[Malcolm]

haha, thanks for the negative rep points whoever that was :hug:

[bogan]

not me, i never heard of them till now, they seem like a good idea though

[Hoon]

ok well, while I'm still in strong disagreement with a lot of what you've said, it's obvious that you've made up your mind and wont be convinced otherwise. Good luck with the system - stubborness is something you'll definitely need if you're going to make it successful.

I think the problem is that you both have different expectations of the final product. Malcolm, yours is the ideal dream solution that we'd all want if we could, no expense spared, no stone left unturned, with the highest possible accuracy based on the technology and knowledge available today.

Bogans is the simplified, low cost, student kiwi no.8 wire shed version obviously with a number of compromises, limitations and of course sacrifices in accuracy. Sure it's far from ideal and the first n versions will probably be arse but you've got to start somewhere. With the right encouragement and support it may one day evolve into that ideal tractionomometer we're all after. Who cares if it doesn't when all it costs me to find out is a few encouraging posts.

[motorbyclist]

TL;DR

I reckon that as it can't anticipate things like oil spills and gravel etc and other variables, combined with idiots who will beleive it and forget about those variables and those who will look down rather than forward, this product would most likely cause more injury than it prevents.

of course a cheap telemetry system would be a cool gadget, but they're nothing new either


and who is going to test eacha nd every tyre out on the market and account for variations in rubber quality and road surface?

[CookMySock]

I reckon that as it can't anticipate things like oil spills and gravel etc and other variables, combined with idiots who will beleive it and forget about those variables and those who will look down rather than forward, this product would most likely cause more injury than it prevents.Pray do tell? What thing, human or machine, could ever do this? Look around corners for gravel patches and other slippery bits? I do not think so. On NZ rural roads, the bottom line is riders are going to be outriding your corners. So if you round some corner and spot a said slippery bit, nothing except your wits and will to survive will save you, and certainly not some box of tricks with lights on.


of course a cheap telemetry system would be a cool gadget, but they're nothing new eitherYeah this thing would do that.


and who is going to test eacha nd every tyre out on the market and account for variations in rubber quality and road surface?You wouldn't, and couldn't. The unit is really only interested in bad things that happen to the bike overall - that is a fairly predictable science - or at least there is some point in analysing it.


TL;DRNo thank you, I'm not that sort of boy. ;)


Steve

[cowpoos]

haha, thanks for the negative rep points whoever that was :hug:

Geee...I wonder who that could be?? Steve? you got a big enough backbone to own up??

[Malcolm]

Ha, I'm not too bothered about it, just thought it was a tad petty because I wasn't being nasty or anything - but you can't expect much better from people on the internets :)

My concern is that the system is far too complex to simplify and still get good results out of - but I guess that's something I can only speculate on and you'd really need to build and test something before you'd really know how useful or accurate it was. And of course you'll also need to decide how accurate is considered acceptable. I think Dangerous bastard is on the right track with looking for the telltale signs that the bike is about to lose it (presumably the same way a human works when they're good at riding at the limit), but that's not going to give you an incremental measure of how close to being fucked you are, it'll just suddenly say "oh shit, that was close"

[quickbuck]

Bogan, I admire your courage......

BUT I voted NO.
A few reasons: First and foremost, a rider (especially a noob) has yo keep their eyes out of the cockpit!
Secondly, as a rider I can process that sort of stuff MUCH better.
Thirdly, if I couldn't process that stuff better I should either get some training, or give up motorcycling.... and operating ANY equipment around other lives...

I am the type of personality who loves gadgets, but I can not see a need for this one.

Take a read of Twist Of The Wrist 2 by Keith Code, and see if your little box is still viable.
If it is, then best of luck to you.

[bogan]

Bogan, I admire your courage......

BUT I voted NO.
A few reasons: First and foremost, a rider (especially a noob) has yo keep their eyes out of the cockpit!
Secondly, as a rider I can process that sort of stuff MUCH better.
Thirdly, if I couldn't process that stuff better I should either get some training, or give up motorcycling.... and operating ANY equipment around other lives...

I am the type of personality who loves gadgets, but I can not see a need for this one.

Take a read of Twist Of The Wrist 2 by Keith Code, and see if your little box is still viable.
If it is, then best of luck to you.

sounds a lot like a book ive got anyway (Total Performance, high performance street riding techniques by parks books). Being an engineer and part of a few automation projects i kind of have the idea that computers can do things better than humans, in this case is it a matter of what sensors/complexity of program/computer hardware is needed to do this. The lack of technical analysis of motorcycle traction means I will have to write a modeling program from scratch (or give up, not my style:p). From there i should be able to figure out how viable it is.

Ill start another thread once i get a good way through the modeling program to see if you guys want to give me feedback on it.

[quickbuck]

Being an engineer and part of a few automation projects i kind of have the idea that computers can do things better than humans, in this case is it a matter of what sensors/complexity of program/computer hardware is needed to do this.

Yeah.... Airbus think so too....
Oh and Boeing..... A couple of Emirates 747 pilots "retired" soon after a little incident in Melbourne last year...
Edit: Wouls help if I got my story straight.... It was in face an Airbus A340 that the Emerates Pilots were in....
The Boeing incident was a different time, and a different place belonging to Singapore Airlines....
Similer damage though.

To be fair to the computer in that case it was doing what it was told.
I believe Airman-ship should have picked up the error on takeoff though....
Why do they call "V One & V Two?"...

Boeing's fix?
Add another computer to check the first one.
Mine would be to ass a weight sensor to the undercarriage.... but then I'm just a Tech, not a design engineer.

[bogan]

Yeah.... Airbus think so too....
Oh and Boeing..... A couple of Emirates 747 pilots "retired" soon after a little incident in Melbourne last year...

To be fair to the computer in that case it was doing what it was told.
I believe Airman-ship should have picked up the error on takeoff though....
Why do they call "V One & V Two?"...

Boeing's fix?
Add another computer to check the first one.
Mine would be to ass a weight sensor to the undercarriage.... but then I'm just a Tech, not a design engineer.

im unfamiliar with the incident you speak of, but i have see the autolanding plane that just overshoots the runway by about a km and "lands" in some trees, a slight programming error by the looks of it!

[racefactory]

fuck all the haters/ knockers, this would be great to see and something i'd love to use. All the best with it.

[motorbyclist]

good on ya for trying even if i don't agree with it, just remember to legally cover your ass in case some idiot bins and tries to sue - i'm in my 3rd year of my engineering (mechatronics) degree so very keen to see this modelling effort either way:)


...
Boeing's fix?
Add another computer to check the first one.
Mine would be to ass a weight sensor to the undercarriage.... but then I'm just a Tech, not a design engineer.

+1

[quickbuck]

im unfamiliar with the incident you speak of, but i have see the autolanding plane that just overshoots the runway by about a km and "lands" in some trees, a slight programming error by the looks of it!

Here's One (http://www.diecastaircraftforum.com/1-1-scale-commercial-aviation/72582-emirates-a340-incident-melbourne.html)

Here's Why (http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25408597-2702,00.html)

[motorbyclist]

WOW - just finished reading the whole thread. some concerning issues here:

Dangerousbastard has a good idea with the "yes, that was close" light.

Bogan:
What riding experience do you have? Seeing you own a dirtbike I thought you would understand how utterly unpredictable traction can be, but i think you really need to consider that the only times this device could really help a rider is when they've hit something unexpected and unaccounted for. this is why i like DB's slip detecting "don't do it again, son" idea.
Also, a 600cc or litre sportbike are VERY unforgiving beasts. Dunno if you've tried riding them but tyre temp and road condition are VERY important factors if you ever find the balls and road required to ride one properly. obviously they aren't learner bikes, but we're all learners - even the racers among us.


How much experience with learners have you had? Over my decade of riding and moreso the last few years with the UofA motorcycle club, I have had the pleasure (and horror) of teaching/training many "Learner" riders and observing other's doing the same.
Allow me to generalise:
Many learners are overly cautious, and will never need an "ideal traction" indicator; these learners ususally crash because something unexpected happened and/OR they left their comfort zone, panicked, and crashed where in most cases the bike was perfectly capable of getting them out of trouble. They eventually learn/grow out of it to become your average, competent motorcyclist, but occasionally they develop into the other type of learner....
The fearless and/or oblivious learner; The fearless are the guys that will TRY to max out your detector, then blame YOU for the inevitable crash. they are also the guys (usually young) that honestly have no concept of how dangerous a motorcycle is, often even after a serious injury. They will often ride a bike far outside their skill and licence level and if doing so they are nearly always uninsured. Many call them Squids. They cannot be taught as they do not listen, and watching them "teach" is a pretty difficult thing to watch, especially if the trainee is the cautious type who will forever more be afraid of bikes.
The oblivious also don't realise how dangerous a bike (or more often, a scooter... and much more commonly a car or SUV) is and crash due to simply not thinking/looking when they change lanes or enter wet off camber corners. Seen those scooter riders in the city wearing miniskirts, tank tops and open helmets, weaving around their lane while txting? perfect example. If they had a traction meter they either wouldn't use it, OR would follow it religiously despite the wet mud and gravel on an off camber corner.
So based on my prior experience, in my honest opinion, this device will cause more injuries than it prevents.
DB's slip detecting "don't do it again, son" idea will help ALL of the above riders in some way.

Your device does not and likely can not work on idiots, and everyone who isn't an idiot has more important things to be learning; very few riders practice emergency stops (yourself included judging by your prior admission)

myself, I started as a cautious learner as a kid on a dirtbike, but became fearless upon learning the road rules. After a few years of narrowly avoiding death I've calmed down to become a reasonably responsible rider (for which i have KB, rider training, watching other people bin and spending 3 years close to 100 demerit points to thank). I can honestly not think of ONE time when your device would have helped me - learning how to crash/control a dirtbike and my shift of attitude is imho the only reason i'm still here today.

[cowpoos]

fuck all the haters/ knockers, this would be great to see and something i'd love to use. All the best with it.

grow up you selfish little boy!

[quickbuck]

but we're all learners - even the racers among us.....

WOW - Top post Motorbyclist.
Apparently I have to send Rep to somebody else before I can give it to you again.....
Your experience sounds very familiar to me, and after some time cheating death I too have come to realise that bit i have quoted from you....

Over all I think you have summed it up.

If bogan ever read Twist of the Wrist, he will realise that everybody has "Survival Reactions" and there is no amount of gizmo's and flashy lights that will over come them.
And as you point out there also those that have no SR.... Yep, for them it is "Always Somebody Else's Fault".....

[mujambee]

WOW - just finished reading the whole thread. some concerning issues here:

...

learning how to crash/control a dirtbike and my shift of attitude is imho the only reason i'm still here today.

That post is great.

[mujambee]

im unfamiliar with the incident you speak of, but i have see the autolanding plane that just overshoots the runway by about a km and "lands" in some trees, a slight programming error by the looks of it!

Something that can potentially kill hundreds is not a "slight" programming error.

With that approach to safety, it's no wonder you claim you can tell me how far I am from a disaster you admit you have no means of anticipating.

[CookMySock]

If bogan ever read Twist of the Wrist, he will realise that everybody has "Survival Reactions" and there is no amount of gizmo's and flashy lights that will over come them.Well yes and no. Over the past few months I have been teaching myself to trust my tyres. It's been scary letting the bastard tip in well past my comfort zone, and fighting the reaction to pull it upright again. Imagine my surprise when I clipped my boot on the inside of a highly-cambered (inwards!) corner - do you think I stood the bike up? Damn straight I did. Which of my survival reactions will really help me to survive? Some will, some won't. ALL of my newbie reactions won't.

Newbie bikers "survival reactions" are often what kills them, and as you say, its pretty much impossible to ignore these little scares without doing something daft, such as standing the bike up, or throttling off and grabbing the front brake, and I suspect these types of errors are what kills many riders on the roads.

So where to for newbies who want to learn? Tuition on the track? sure. But this box has the potential to sit there and snarl at them when they do it wrong. It also has the potential to grin at them when they get it right.

Watch this guy get it wrong. And die. At 1:27 watch the brain-lock followed by the brains' refusal to bar push. Warning: This is not a family video clip.
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Steve

[quickbuck]

Well yes and no. Over the past few months I have been teaching myself to trust my tyres. It's been scary letting the bastard tip in well past my comfort zone, and fighting the reaction to pull it upright again. Imagine my surprise when I clipped my boot on the inside of a highly-cambered (inwards!) corner - do you think I stood the bike up? Damn straight I did. Which of my survival reactions will really help me to survive? Some will, some won't. ALL of my newbie reactions won't.

Newbie bikers "survival reactions" are often what kills them, and as you say, its pretty much impossible to ignore these little scares without doing something daft, such as standing the bike up, or throttling off and grabbing the front brake, and I suspect these types of errors are what kills many riders on the roads.




Steve
EXACTLY why they are called "Survival Reactions".
The quotes mean they are NOT REALLY Survival Reactions.

You too, Sir, should read the book.
Seriously.
I mean most of your post covered off some very good points contained within it.

[bogan]

WOW - just finished reading the whole thread. some concerning issues here:

Dangerousbastard has a good idea with the "yes, that was close" light.

Bogan:
What riding experience do you have? Seeing you own a dirtbike I thought you would understand how utterly unpredictable traction can be, but i think you really need to consider that the only times this device could really help a rider is when they've hit something unexpected and unaccounted for. this is why i like DB's slip detecting "don't do it again, son" idea.
Also, a 600cc or litre sportbike are VERY unforgiving beasts. Dunno if you've tried riding them but tyre temp and road condition are VERY important factors if you ever find the balls and road required to ride one properly. obviously they aren't learner bikes, but we're all learners - even the racers among us.


How much experience with learners have you had? Over my decade of riding and moreso the last few years with the UofA motorcycle club, I have had the pleasure (and horror) of teaching/training many "Learner" riders and observing other's doing the same.
Allow me to generalise:
Many learners are overly cautious, and will never need an "ideal traction" indicator; these learners ususally crash because something unexpected happened and/OR they left their comfort zone, panicked, and crashed where in most cases the bike was perfectly capable of getting them out of trouble. They eventually learn/grow out of it to become your average, competent motorcyclist, but occasionally they develop into the other type of learner....
The fearless and/or oblivious learner; The fearless are the guys that will TRY to max out your detector, then blame YOU for the inevitable crash. they are also the guys (usually young) that honestly have no concept of how dangerous a motorcycle is, often even after a serious injury. They will often ride a bike far outside their skill and licence level and if doing so they are nearly always uninsured. Many call them Squids. They cannot be taught as they do not listen, and watching them "teach" is a pretty difficult thing to watch, especially if the trainee is the cautious type who will forever more be afraid of bikes.
The oblivious also don't realise how dangerous a bike (or more often, a scooter... and much more commonly a car or SUV) is and crash due to simply not thinking/looking when they change lanes or enter wet off camber corners. Seen those scooter riders in the city wearing miniskirts, tank tops and open helmets, weaving around their lane while txting? perfect example. If they had a traction meter they either wouldn't use it, OR would follow it religiously despite the wet mud and gravel on an off camber corner.
So based on my prior experience, in my honest opinion, this device will cause more injuries than it prevents.
DB's slip detecting "don't do it again, son" idea will help ALL of the above riders in some way.

Your device does not and likely can not work on idiots, and everyone who isn't an idiot has more important things to be learning; very few riders practice emergency stops (yourself included judging by your prior admission)

myself, I started as a cautious learner as a kid on a dirtbike, but became fearless upon learning the road rules. After a few years of narrowly avoiding death I've calmed down to become a reasonably responsible rider (for which i have KB, rider training, watching other people bin and spending 3 years close to 100 demerit points to thank). I can honestly not think of ONE time when your device would have helped me - learning how to crash/control a dirtbike and my shift of attitude is imho the only reason i'm still here today.

riding experience has been last 8ish years half dirt half road, no track. Have had some loss of traction incedents on gravel/white lines, though wouldnt say ive ever pushed my bike close to the limits of traction for normal circumstances.
Basically i came up with the idea after talking to my uncle who learnt to ride a few years ago, he was saying he had no idea how close to the limits of traction he was, which means he wasnt well equiped if it cam to an emergency evasion type situaion. But he didnt want to try pushing it in case he was actually too close to those limits and fell off. I agreed on all these points, and i thort i can probly make a device which gives an approximation of these limits. I realise the accuracy will be significantly less than what most of you hope for but i think for learners it will help increase their confidence and make them better riders. I have had a bit of experience with learner, and have hit the "fear barrier" myself as i thort i was going too fast around a corner, luckily there was sufficient room and i didnt run off the road, i realised after i could have leaned over more and been a lot safer, this device will help riders overcome the "fear barrier".

To summarise, this device will show learner what the bike can do so they have a larger comfort zone.

I realise traction is quite unpredicable, due mainly to the roads surface, by showing how much is available in good condition, i hope riders will scale accordingly for bad conditions, if not DBs dont do that again light will hopefully make them slower next time.
Personally im not big on the idea of slip detecting, but a lot of you seem to like it and i have not much experience with this so i will try and include it.

If a rider is stupid enough to get a safety device like this and try to max it out, i will be somewhat unsympathetic to the resulting crash. Thats like seeing a high voltage sign then grabbing the wires thinking "im tough i can take it"

with regard to me practicing e-stops, im a bit wary of these as the fall i had there was absolutely no warning that the front locked up, one instant was slowing down quickly, next i was on my ass. So i dont want to practice e-stoping as ill probly ass off again cos i dont know where the traction limit is... u see where im going here!

final note, this device isnt for everybody, if you cant think of a time it would be useful then its not for you, but there has been enough intrest that i feel it warrents furthur investigation/developement.

[bogan]

Here's One (http://www.diecastaircraftforum.com/1-1-scale-commercial-aviation/72582-emirates-a340-incident-melbourne.html)

Here's Why (http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25408597-2702,00.html)

i c, yeh thats a lot different to the one i was thinking of, though bad data entry is hardly the computers fault.

[bogan]

If bogan ever read Twist of the Wrist, he will realise that everybody has "Survival Reactions" and there is no amount of gizmo's and flashy lights that will over come them.

definetely on my to do list

[bogan]

Something that can potentially kill hundreds is not a "slight" programming error.

With that approach to safety, it's no wonder you claim you can tell me how far I am from a disaster you admit you have no means of anticipating.

you, my good sir, appear to be trolling!
of course i do not mean the overal error is slight, just the the bug in the program was probably just a single line of code or something similar, i guess this was the case because the plane in question seemed to make a near perfect landing (im no aviation expert btw) but about a km past the runway.

[mujambee]

you, my good sir, appear to be trolling!

That was most unpolite, and I expect some form of apology. :(


of course i do not mean the overal error is slight, just the the bug in the program was probably just a single line of code or something similar, i guess this was the case because the plane in question seemed to make a near perfect landing (im no aviation expert btw) but about a km past the runway.

Wrong. Just a single line of code is enough to kill hundreds, so under no circumstances it may be regarded as "slight". Spent a lot of time working in laboratories for processes that could easily cause a lot of damage (food processing plants, water supply, pharmaceutical ), and what I learned there is that a single comma can kill thousands, it is not to be regarded as "slight". Imagine I type the upper limit for pesticides in human drinkable water and I type 100.0 where it should read 1.000; that's a typo, a slight error by your account, but think about the consequences...

So please, even if you don't listen to anything else that is being written in this whole thread; please take this as number one rule: There are no slight errors when lives are involved.

[quickbuck]

with regard to me practicing e-stops, im a bit wary of these as the fall i had there was absolutely no warning that the front locked up, one instant was slowing down quickly, next i was on my ass. So i dont want to practice e-stoping as ill probly ass off again cos i dont know where the traction limit is... u see where im going here!



This means you should practice them MORE, not LESS.

It may be that you snatched your lever... or you rode over a piece of slippery road.....
BUT
I suspect you dropped your head.

Reason being, if you snatched the lever then the wheel would have locked first up.... by the sound of it, not.
Hit something with less traction while under braking, you should have been able to release the lever as soon as the wheel skidded to get it rolling like a wheel, rather pretend to be a skate.....

I say you dropped your head, as if your head was up you can actually keep the front wheel locked for a little while....
Try it on the MTB and you can actually cover quite a distence across a wet lawn if you keep your head up.

So all that said.... what tells you where the traction limit actually is? Or how far you are from it?

[motorbyclist]

Watch this guy get it wrong. And die.

just a comment on the fearless/oblivious - one can instantly see that he's going to bin the moment he sped up to follow that clearly faster rider, and then starts crossing the centreline just to make a fast enough line through the turns.

no amount of electronic wizardry can account for that sort of riding.


.
Basically i came up with the idea after talking to my uncle who learnt to ride a few years ago, he was saying he had no idea how close to the limits of traction he was, which means he wasnt well equiped if it cam to an emergency evasion type situaion. But he didnt want to try pushing it in case he was actually too close to those limits and fell off. I agreed on all these points, and i thort i can probly make a device which gives an approximation of these limits.
......
I realise the accuracy will be significantly less than what most of you hope for but i think for learners it will help increase their confidence and make them better riders. I have had a bit of experience with learner, and have hit the "fear barrier" myself as i thort i was going too fast around a corner, luckily there was sufficient room and i didnt run off the road, i realised after i could have leaned over more and been a lot safer, this device will help riders overcome the "fear barrier".

To summarise, this device will show learner what the bike can do so they have a larger comfort zone.

right - this is where I feel you're missing a LOT of what is said all over the world about motorcycling safety

you and your uncle should partake in some rider training. The RRRS course is a very good course run at whenuapai airbase that strongly i recommend taking - for only $25 too!

I personally have run several "learner rides" for the uni bike club and try to teach good ways to avoid those classic newbie mistakes like target fixation, locking brakes and other "survival instincts" that lead to crashes, by training so that the correct action is the instinctive one. I also specifically pick roads that suit the skill level of the rider/riders and warn ahead of time that the surface deteriorates or corners tighten; in this way learners can "have a go" at dodgy surfaces without the surprise and panic, and so far the only "SMC Learner Ride" crash has, embarrassingly, been my own! (rider fatigue; fell asleep. 'nuff said.)


.
with regard to me practicing e-stops, im a bit wary of these as the fall i had there was absolutely no warning that the front locked up, one instant was slowing down quickly, next i was on my ass. So i dont want to practice e-stoping as ill probly ass off again cos i dont know where the traction limit is... u see where im going here!


again i suggest the RRRS course, to practice your stopping in a safe way with proper instruction. front wheels lock with no warning in only (generally) two situations; ice, oil or wet paint, and when rider grabs the brakes suddenly rather than gradually. the third case is if you ride a GN250:crazy:

in the second case, presumably yours, a flashing light would not have helped - rider training would have.

what i'm trying to put across, is that while it's all good to say "oh the rider will allow for dodgy surfaces", the honest fact is that ALL surfaces are potentially dodgy, so some gizmo that abitrarily assigns a friction co-efficient of your crappy shinko tyre to wet tar bleed, assuming an ideal condition of slicks to a racetrack is only going to give a LEARNER a false sense of security. an interesting thing i found on the learner rides is that many newbies don't realise how slippery tar bleed is; your device sure won't teach 'em!

what a learner needs to do, as part of LEARNING, is to find by experience what does and doesn't work. the road is not a racetrack. as soon as we try to find the limits of our bike, we are trying to max out your traction-ometer, which is inherently a dangerous proposition.

What you may also find, is most (possibly all) bikes in good road conditions will scrape pegs before tyres let go, and for many they can do it even in the wet. this basically reduces your system to only being useful as a braking aid, for which ABS does a better job, and in my personal and professional opinion (i ride scooters part time) knowing and judging the limits ofyour bike and how to behave in an emergency will trump any brake-ometer you can come up with

and as a final note - nine times out of ten i swerve in favour of braking; many learners panic, brake, and bin. only once for me has swerving failed, and it was still a better outcome than braking.

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Side note: today, while carrying a pillion, i "cruised" through a left hand turn at some lights that i do every day quite happily. dry road, very new and good surface, nice warm sticky tyres. with the pillion aboard, however, i felt the front slip ever so slightly when crossing the painted white line. I was able to discern this, as would DB's light and a GP bike's slip sensor. Your system should have told me i was at approx 75% of cornering speed at the entry right through to exit, accounting for pillion.
perhaps that case may illustrate why i think your system would be a cause of injury for learners who would beleive your meter without noticing the slip by inexperience, and also that if a learner had done a similar move but witha longer, more obvious slip, they would have hit the brakes, thus condemning them to a lowside into oncoming traffic.

likewise a few weeks back i (stupidly) re-learned to stay away from the centreline on right handers - clipped a reflector and the front slipped almost a foot then regained traction, which then broke the rear loose for a 100kph tail wobble around the rest of the corner. experience told me to hold the line and sure enough it settled out. a newbie would have stood her up and ridden into a ditch, or hit the brakes and slid her into a ditch - "oh, but the traction meter said i was at 75%!"

my learner rides seek to address exactly the above described sort of circumstances where "survival instincts" like hitting the brakes cause injury.

ie, rider training trumps technological marvels

[motorbyclist]

It may be that you snatched your lever... or you rode over a piece of slippery road.....
BUT
I suspect you dropped your head.


that reminds me - when emergency braking, you always look AHEAD.

the moment you look down, the bike will become less stable (you are no longer piloting it straight, and are relying on balance) and wobble, ending with a tucked front wheel.

if you start to brake and look at your dashboard, you are commited to stopping. you SHOULD be looking for an exit to swerve and avoid the obstacle altogether.

another reason why a traction meter would cause accidents - and don't say it will have a 5sec delay cause then it's useless in an emergency anyway!


final final note: if you can't hold a locked wheel upright in a straight line for a second or more, invest in some training wheels, or - you guessed it! - rider training

[CookMySock]

another reason why a traction meter would cause accidents - and don't say it will have a 5sec delay cause then it's useless in an emergency anyway!A meter on the dash to look at in real-time is too dangerous. Eyes must be up while riding, and all effort into steering and braking where appropriate in an emergency. All natural rider-instinct and learned survival tricks apply.

What I have written about, is a device that can review a recent event in hindsight, and apply a methodical scientific analysis peer-review, and suggest whether the rider may have overstepped some safety boundary, on the basis of fingerprints stored in the devices' memory.

Smoothness and rider-development are encouraged, and the riders' response to an emergency will directly influence either a positive or negative peer-review by the device, depending on whether they panic, brake, and slide, or smoothly brake and steer. "well done, son" or "damn that was close" responses, depending on how the rider handled it.

Steve

[bogan]

That was most unpolite, and I expect some form of apology. :(



Wrong. Just a single line of code is enough to kill hundreds, so under no circumstances it may be regarded as "slight". Spent a lot of time working in laboratories for processes that could easily cause a lot of damage (food processing plants, water supply, pharmaceutical ), and what I learned there is that a single comma can kill thousands, it is not to be regarded as "slight". Imagine I type the upper limit for pesticides in human drinkable water and I type 100.0 where it should read 1.000; that's a typo, a slight error by your account, but think about the consequences...

So please, even if you don't listen to anything else that is being written in this whole thread; please take this as number one rule: There are no slight errors when lives are involved.

my bad then, sorry.

my point was that the error when viewed independant of the consequences is small, when grouped with the consequences it is of course catstrophic

[bogan]

There still seems to be a little confusion as to the devices purpose so ill try and explain it better.

It is meant as a learning aid, for use on the road, by giving an approximation on how much traction is available in good conditions, it is not supposed to replace rider experience or track days, experience will always be better than a gizmo. It is more there to give newer riders more experience from road riding.

That said i can see your point of view, and it may be that the traction the gizmo thinks is available is way off, or it may be that it can get pretty close. Without hard technical data evidence of how each part of the traction system contributes to the overal traction available, we cannot be sure that this wont work. This is why the next step is to do a far more in depth model to try and figure this out.

[bogan]

again i suggest the RRRS course, to practice your stopping in a safe way with proper instruction. front wheels lock with no warning in only (generally) two situations; ice, oil or wet paint, and when rider grabs the brakes suddenly rather than gradually. the third case is if you ride a GN250:crazy:


Um funny thing you mention the gn250, it was indeed a gn250 i fell off. Got a VT250 now so sounds like i shud htfu and go do some e-stops.

[mujambee]

That said i can see your point of view, and it may be that the traction the gizmo thinks is available is way off, or it may be that it can get pretty close. Without hard technical data evidence of how each part of the traction system contributes to the overal traction available, we cannot be sure that this wont work. This is why the next step is to do a far more in depth model to try and figure this out.

No amount of modelling on your bike will anticipate road conditions. And road conditions are the real limit; if you step over a oil split, traction will suddenly drop.

Now, if you listen to Steve up there (despite being a dangerous bastard he has some clever ideas from time to time), you'll see something that would be really helpful and that I would gladly attach to my bike. That tool may really help learners find their limits.

[bogan]

No amount of modelling on your bike will anticipate road conditions. And road conditions are the real limit; if you step over a oil split, traction will suddenly drop.

Now, if you listen to Steve up there (despite being a dangerous bastard he has some clever ideas from time to time), you'll see something that would be really helpful and that I would gladly attach to my bike. That tool may really help learners find their limits.

the thing with oil spills and other similar road hazards is no amount of experience can allow you to ride through these at considerable speeds and avoid hitting the pavement, you MUST slow down before the corner. Why should having a device like this make people forget that?

Yes steves idea is a good one, and after reading the book recomended by quickbuck i think maybe i could do more in the way of rider analysis as well as traction predictions, i now propose (any many thanks for your inputs guys) a threefold system:

a DB light which goes off if you have overstepped a safety margin, calculated by wheel slip as well some other factors.

a riding "teacher" which analyses throttle and weight distribution etc to provide the rider with an indication of how well they were riding, with respect to maximising the available traction. (ie judging the weight distribution to be at correct 40/60% for example, and no harsh position shifts, steering moves, or throttle changes)

and finally an estimate of traction used with respect to good conditions(i still like this idea and it would use the same sensors anyway)


Finally ill post a quote i found in the book quickbuck recomend it, i quite like it and perhaps it is applicable here.

A German philosopher named Schopenhauer once stated. "All truth
passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed*. Second, it is violently
opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident*". Riding technology
has undergone this same process.

[motorbyclist]

the thing with oil spills and other similar road hazards is no amount of experience can allow you to ride through these at considerable speeds and avoid hitting the pavement, you MUST slow down before the corner. Why should having a device like this make people forget that?

firstly, i contest that fact through experience, and secondly, your original proposal was a meter to show how much grip was available to allow you to use 99% of it, which encourages users to do just that.

ok, yes oil can be a disaster, but many can handle it.... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_08p-414uGY)

and get a rider with some offroad experience....
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KycZk1M7g24)

you've clearly already made up your mind on this, and the threefold system IS a vast improvement, so I think it's time we left you to it because clearly there isn't that much for KB to offer you until the next stage of the project.

good luck.

(oh, and all falsehoods pass through three stages too - ridicule, opposition, then through politics into law:rolleyes:)

[motorbyclist]

the more and more i think about this, to get ANY sort of accuracy you will have to have several models of the different suspension systems, and upon an install on ANY given bike, have to test and find the vaules to fit that model, and then retest as things like fork oil degrade etc etc....

or just find a direct way of measuring the force magnitute and direction at the tyre, in real time... this seems much easier to do, given a coefficient of a particular rubber on a surface, possibly employ a means of measuring tyre and road temperature, and maybe even use a vibration (or even optical or ultrasonic) measurement to determine the roughness of the surface to atleast distinguish between smooth seal, chip seal, and tar bleed, you could actually get some sort of accuracy. maybe even include a 'WET' mode for the user to select if conditions require it (or again use some sort of sensor)

[CookMySock]

the more and more i think about this, to get ANY sort of accuracy you will have to have several models of the different suspension systems, and upon an install on ANY given bike, have to test and find the vaules to fit that model, and then retest as things like fork oil degrade etc etc....No, you are over-thinking it. While it is true that the device would have to learn individual bikes, tyres, and road conditions ;

When you are riding, a little wiggle from the chassis might be related to a random patch of road surface, but as you observe earlier - now rider skill and the ability to not panic plays the major role.

The panic response from the rider, and the subsequent chassis flick and slide is abundantly clear to both yourself (even if you were following and watching said rider) and also clear to the digital signal processor monitoring the bike. Said nasty flick and slide will provide a very clear fingerprint to the DSP unit. Tyres, while pivotal to the safety of the whole operation, are included in the overall picture and not part of the individual analysis.

* Having said that ; Later on I cannot see why the device could not be adapted further to specifically target tyres and their behaviour, or for lots of other purposes too.

** The software on this thing will be a massive task,

Steve

[bogan]

firstly, i contest that fact through experience, and secondly, your original proposal was a meter to show how much grip was available to allow you to use 99% of it, which encourages users to do just that.

ok, yes oil can be a disaster, but many can handle it.... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_08p-414uGY)

and get a rider with some offroad experience....
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KycZk1M7g24)

you've clearly already made up your mind on this, and the threefold system IS a vast improvement, so I think it's time we left you to it because clearly there isn't that much for KB to offer you until the next stage of the project.

good luck.

(oh, and all falsehoods pass through three stages too - ridicule, opposition, then through politics into law:rolleyes:)

haha, touche.

Ok so some sbk buys can recover from oil slicks, many didnt as well. So for road riding i still say if you u see an oil slick, you gotta slow down. Ive said many times the rider is responsible for road surface hazards, i dont know how else to explain it, this system isnt designed to pick up on that!!

This may vastly reduce its useabilty, which is the point many of you are trying to make, but if we take corners with visible hazards out of the equation (by rider sees, rider slows) I think the predicated amount of traction, and the actual amount of traction may turn out to be fairly similar. But there is now way of knowing (beleive me when i say i wish there was) other than a lot of expensive testing, or write another modeling program (a lot of work, but costs nothing!).

[motorbyclist]

This may vastly reduce its useabilty, which is the point many of you are trying to make,

i was thinking about this on my commute this morning, and realised there IS a clear use for your product; rider training!

i am not talking about learning on the road, but as a training aid for when conditions ARE predictable which would mean riding schools and track days;
just a means of saying, "look, you've got far more room to improve that stop by x amount" or "yes, i can take that corner faster" or "yes, that is what we call a fuck-up; don't do it again"

so while i still say this product is a hazard on the road (and useless in a race), and if any accuracy is to be obtained it's cost will most likely be prohibitive. so get it accurate, reliable, and easily calibrated and sell it to riding schools where you know the bike, tyres and surface. They can afford it, they can oversee it's safe use, and it will help learners in their early stages to gain a bit of confidence

[CookMySock]

there IS a clear use for your product; rider training! [...] as a training aid for when conditions ARE predictable which would mean riding schools and track days; [...] just a means of saying, "look, you've got far more room to improve that stop by x amount" or "yes, i can take that corner faster" or "yes, that is what we call a fuck-up; don't do it again"Yep.


and if any accuracy is to be obtained it's cost will most likely be prohibitive.This is why it needs a GPL firmware - thats the quick way to get experienced mathematicians and coders all over the world behind it. It will be too massive a task otherwise.

;)

Steve

[dpex]

Ive been toying with the idea of an electronic training device to help riders learn the limits by displaying the amount of traction being used in any given situation.

What it does is takes sensor data from the bike and works out all the net forces acting on the bike, it also calculates the weight distribution on each wheel. Using the cornering g-force, acceleration/decelleration forces, weight distributions, crest/dip forces, etc, it calculates the percentage of traction currently being used for each wheel and displays the highest one.

The value it uses for this maximum amount of traction is calculated using a number of constants which are programmed into the system, these are programed for each bike it is on. They include weight, rider and bike, tyre profile and friction co-efficient (can be found with two sets of scales).

What it cant do is sense the road conditions, potholes gravel, oil, wet, camber, the rider is responsible to back off if the road is slippery.

The display is currently under review, an LED bargraph is used in the current prototype, which shows the percentage scale in realtime, and records the max percentage used round a corner which it then displays after the corner for rider review. Other suggestions have been to use a beeper, beeps faster the more traction you use, and also to do datalogging in conjunction with GPS data.

The working idea of it is that it provides riders with a measure of the upper limit of traction they have available, (kind of like an intense track day would do, only without the practical experience obviously). For example, if a rider did a quick stop in 70m thinking he was using most of the traction, then put this gismo on the bike and found he could use a lot more, when he next did an emergency stop he could stop in 55m, thus being safer. There would be similar benifits while cornering and accelerating. The bit where this doesnt work is when the road conditions are poor, if he tried getting close to the gizmos idea of traction he would lock up, so the rider is still responsible for noticing porr road conditions and adjusting speeds and stopping force.

There is also the possiblity of a brak test to find the available traction, this would mean the rider rides along and locks up the rear wheel, the gizmo would then examine the deceleration needed and work out the force required to lock it up, and thus calculate the current road friction co-efficient, but again this would still not solve the problem of potholes, gravel spots, and oil slicks, though it would take care of different road quality and wet roads.

Your thoughts on this idea?

I think the concept has merit, but any form of visual read-out would be a no-no.

However, here's a thought. In gliders we have a dingus called a variometer. It tells the pilot when the aircraft is rising or falling. Although there is an analogue read-out of the rate of climb or fall, there is also an audio tone which is a flat-line buzz when the aircraft is neither rising nor falling. When the aircraft starts to rise, in any form of lift, the flat-line tone begins to beep (slowly if the rise-rate is slow). As the rate of rise increases so does the frequency of the beeps.

When the aircraft is falling (lack of lift) the tone goes from flat-line to a berurp. The berurp increases in frequency as the aircraft falls faster.

The benefit, as I'm sure you'll all appreciate, is that using such a tonal feedback for your device Head-phones in the helmet), one would not have to take precious micro-seconds of vision from the track ahead.

I've always been mildly impressed with my GPS which guides me here and there....'Turn left at the next lights. Take the 3rd exit from the roundabout. Perform a U-turn when possible, etc.

Personally, I think the makers could bump a bit of fun into such devices so that when you took the second, as opposed to the third exit, the voice might say, 'I said the 3rd exit, dick head'.

And so it could be with you device coupled to a tonal feedback system as described above.

You could have settings for "soft" cornering...you're in the burbs. "Medium and Death" for the roads. The latter two could provide the recipient who is going either too fast or too slow with an admonishment. "Too Fast!" the voice screams, 'You're about to die, Sucker!' Too slow and the voice intones, 'Hey, arsehole! Get a life.'

But when the rider gets the perfect balance of all parts of the turn the device might assert, 'WoooHooo. Have my baby. You is the king of the road.'

Stuff like that.

Yeah. I think the idea has merit, but visual feedback would be a no-no.

[Dare]

This is why it needs a GPL firmware - thats the quick way to get experienced mathematicians and coders all over the world behind it. It will be too massive a task otherwise.

Another way to get coders etc behind the system is to make it as adaptable as possible, this means using non-proprietry connectors, 12V in, modular system etc, etc. look at the arduino (www.arduino.cc) for a good example of this kind of system in action.

Imagine this, your initial system comprises of GPS, gyroscopic sensors, accellerometers and sensors for speed, throttle and braking input, using these sensors and some moderately smart coding we have a basic telemetry. this means we can see how smooth your inputs, leans etc were and even where you were when you did all that. This is very interesting stuff to look back on and see how fast you took X corner and how smooth you were when you did it. Bluetooth/USB would handle uploading this information to a phone/laptop with minimum of fuss. Onboard flash memory can handle firmware/software as people get onboard and find clever ways of interpreting all this data. Later modules could handle more and more aspects of the bike up to having a video display with PSI, Temp, G, and the list goes on.

As for having this information available at the time of riding, I believe no visual cue will be quick enough to react to. Think about it, from a visual input average human reaction time is roughly 0.2 seconds, that is more than enough time to lose traction past the point of no return. A noise is a good idea, with a sound scheme to alert the rider when different things are happening (record amounts of lean, for instance). A big part of learning to ride is to feel for what the bike is doing on a level that no dial or light is going to give you a sense of. The best they can do is give you a rough idea of when you should be on full alert to what the bike is trying to tell you.

Just my 0.02

[Lurch]

I think that rather than a dashboard display you would be better off developing a post-ride analysis for riders.

An onboard device that records the riding session in great detail including lean angle and forces which you download after the ride and gives you a corner by corner analysis viewable on a computer.

[bogan]

I think that rather than a dashboard display you would be better off developing a post-ride analysis for riders.

An onboard device that records the riding session in great detail including lean angle and forces which you download after the ride and gives you a corner by corner analysis viewable on a computer.

That would be great for track use but I was thinking the system would be more for road use. And after a long ride you would probably have forgotten what the corners felt like, it will still record it anyway but the dash indicator was to give the rider immediate feedback on the last corner taken. Ie go round corner fast, on the straight quick glance at indicator, says last corner was prolly a little bit sketch, dont go so fast the next time.

[Lurch]

Watch this guy get it wrong. And die. At 1:27 watch the brain-lock followed by the brains' refusal to bar push

The major problem displayed in this clip wasn't the SR involved it was the poor decision making that got him into that position on the road and at that speed.

(Sorry, bit off topic)

[t3mp0r4ry nzr]

Ive only read the first post, but immediate thought is info. overload and relevance of info.

on a bike your pretty busy anyway. so all this extra info., useful? if you cant take it in, what is the point?

if you can measure traction or lean, is that gonna make you a better rider?

[bogan]

Ive only read the first post, but immediate thought is info. overload and relevance of info.

on a bike your pretty busy anyway. so all this extra info., useful? if you cant take it in, what is the point?

if you can measure traction or lean, is that gonna make you a better rider?

taking in info is same as glancing down at speedo, so not information overload. I would say its pretty relevant, knowing how much traction you have left will make you less likely to exceed this level and crash

[aewilliam]

BIG PICTURE here...

If Bogan's little piece of wizardry is going to prevent, or contribute to preventing accidents, through TIMELY (i.e. PRE-EVENT...) information to the rider or the bike's ECU/braking systems) on your/my beloved two-wheeler, me thinks we ALL would say "Yes"?

I am not gonna even mention HOW it will work, but here i am talking about a WORKING DEVICE.

It sounds like it needs miniature time-travel technology to know what is gonna happen - either a couple of seconds for human reaction, or milliseconds for computer controlled reaction - in advance of your current riding situation/position.

But I dont care how it works now do I, just that it does.

The Government would say yes, contribute to R&D, provide production subsidies, and sooner or later, likely draft into law requirement for all new production bikes (or even cars?) sold in NZ, the installation of Bogan's device, just like ABS will likely be (or is it already?)

ACC and insurance premiums for bikers are given reason to drop (but whether they actually do is another question).

I will not only say yes, but also, Bogan, give me your bank a/c number and I will contribute to R&D if i can share in the financial gains.

But if all its gonna is say is "Dude, you f***ed up, and You are gonna be kissing tarmac 0.00005 seconds ago, and you have just paid $500 for me and I'm gonna get f***ed up as well, so you better hope your insurance is current"...

Then a "no" will be my answer.

[t3mp0r4ry nzr]

taking in info is same as glancing down at speedo, so not information overload. I would say its pretty relevant, knowing how much traction you have left will make you less likely to exceed this level and crash

bikes are unforgiving! if u overstep traction just for a fraction of a second, you may crash. you will not see this displayed on the monitor until you go to pick up the bike. relevance??

how about developing a plug-in ABS or traction control unit? prevent the crash from happening rather than letting you know that you overstepped traction AFTER the event.

just my thoughts as I am well versed in crashing!

good luck

BTW: maybe its just me, but from my experiences from racing means that I dont really look at the speedo, tach or even use mirrors when riding on the road (I look over me shoulder) and feel/hear the motor/judge my speed on other vehicles. less distractions on a bike, the better.

[Dargor]

Thats an amazing idea, but i would be very sceptical of the readings given from the method described.

[bogan]

bikes are unforgiving! if u overstep traction just for a fraction of a second, you may crash. you will not see this displayed on the monitor until you go to pick up the bike. relevance??

the monitor will display a 80% or similar just before you crash. And the bigger picture is you will go round a corner, the monitor says 80% of traction was used, so you wont try and go any faster round said corner.

how about developing a plug-in ABS or traction control unit? prevent the crash from happening rather than letting you know that you overstepped traction AFTER the event.

did consider that, but would have to manufacture sensor mounts individually for each fork and swingarm, and wheels etc, as well as all the liability issues etc

just my thoughts as I am well versed in crashing!

i appreciate the input, and hopefully some of you guys would be able to do some track testing when i eventually make a prototye.

good luck

BTW: maybe its just me, but from my experiences from racing means that I dont really look at the speedo, tach or even use mirrors when riding on the road (I look over me shoulder) and feel/hear the motor/judge my speed on other vehicles. less distractions on a bike, the better.

the user interface method can be whatever is required, visual, audible, reveiwable on comp after


BIG PICTURE here...

If Bogan's little piece of wizardry is going to prevent, or contribute to preventing accidents, through TIMELY (i.e. PRE-EVENT...) information to the rider or the bike's ECU/braking systems) on your/my beloved two-wheeler, me thinks we ALL would say "Yes"?

I am not gonna even mention HOW it will work, but here i am talking about a WORKING DEVICE.

It sounds like it needs miniature time-travel technology to know what is gonna happen - either a couple of seconds for human reaction, or milliseconds for computer controlled reaction - in advance of your current riding situation/position.

But I dont care how it works now do I, just that it does.

The Government would say yes, contribute to R&D, provide production subsidies, and sooner or later, likely draft into law requirement for all new production bikes (or even cars?) sold in NZ, the installation of Bogan's device, just like ABS will likely be (or is it already?)

ACC and insurance premiums for bikers are given reason to drop (but whether they actually do is another question).

I will not only say yes, but also, Bogan, give me your bank a/c number and I will contribute to R&D if i can share in the financial gains.

But if all its gonna is say is "Dude, you f***ed up, and You are gonna be kissing tarmac 0.00005 seconds ago, and you have just paid $500 for me and I'm gonna get f***ed up as well, so you better hope your insurance is current"...

Then a "no" will be my answer.

Basically its more of a training device than a pre-event system at this stage. As pre-event would require an accurate mapping of the road ahead, i have no doubt this can be done with computer vision but it would be far more complex than the system im currently proposing

[motorbyclist]

taking in info is same as glancing down at speedo, so not information overload. I would say its pretty relevant, knowing how much traction you have left will make you less likely to exceed this level and crash

again i refer to being an expert rider before making bold claims.

looking at speedo isn't looking at road.

traction can't be seen beyond the blind corner.

any sense of security is a liability, however, confidence is key.

most racers remove their speedo - they cause more problms than they create.

[bogan]

again i refer to being an expert rider before making bold claims.

looking at speedo isn't looking at road.

traction can't be seen beyond the blind corner.

any sense of security is a liability, however, confidence is key.

most racers remove their speedo - they cause more problms than they create.

Well its not meant for expert riders so not too sure what you mean there. And not all too sure what you mean for the other points either, its not supposed to be a traction predicting device, a sense of security is basically confidence anyway is it not? Most road riders use a speedo.

Basically i understand most main general misgivings people have about the proposed system, but i think there is a significant chance it will still be very usefull. I also think the knowledge gained from even trying such a system will have benifits, even if this system doesnt work.