Driver didn't see me...

[MyGSXF]

We've all experienced it.. driver pulls out in front of us.. then pleads ignorance.. "I didn't see you" :argh:

Two things are going on here..

"Motion Camouflage" & "The Looming Effect"

Motion Camouflage: When a bike can effectively become invisible to the driver waiting to pull out. The drivers eyes are fooled into believing a moving object is stationary! When a rider travels down a line that extends from a fixed point behind the bike directly to the eye of a driver waiting at the junction ahead. The rider's size does not appear to increase as they travel down this line & so they blend in to the background! As a result, the driver is not alerted to the presence of the bike because his brain is scanning for movement. Finally as the bike nears the car, an effect called "looming" occurs - which is where the bike suddenly grows in size, destroying the motion camouflage and becoming visible to the driver. But a natural response to looming means the drivers are momentarily frozen the the spot :eek5:

Looming Effect: is the perceived rapid increase in the size of an object as it gets closer to an observer. It is our primary method for assessing whether something will collide with us or not. Looming works on the part of the brain's visual cortex that uses 'edge detection' to alert it to the presence of movement. If the edges of an object - such as a bike moving down a street - cannot be detected, then no alert is triggered. :doh:

Looming is a key factor in the 'flight or fight' response mechanism of animals. The decision to flight or flee is preceded by a momentary 'freeze' phase, while the brain flips a coin and prepares the body for whichever action it will take. :wait:

It is looming that suddenly reveals the bike to a motorists stunned eyes, as it grows in size and triggers the alarms in the visual cortex. :crazy:

The looming effect is probably what freezes them to the spot with a rabbit-in-the-headlights look of horror once they spot the bike! :shit:

Comes from notes given at an advanced rider training course!

[PirateJafa]

Motion Camouflage: When a bike can effectively become invisible to the driver waiting to pull out. The drivers eyes are fooled into believing a moving object is stationary! When a rider travels down a line that extends from a fixed point behind the bike directly to the eye of a driver waiting at the junction ahead. The rider's size does not appear to increase as they travel down this line & so they blend in to the background! As a result, the driver is not alerted to the presence of the bike because his brain is scanning for movement.

But when we try to prevent this, we get 151 posts on KB calling us retards on the Southern motorway! :girlfight:

[discotex]

But when we try to prevent this, we get 151 posts on KB calling us retards on the Southern motorway! :girlfight:

That's a rather tenuous link.

But yes when you see a car waiting to turn across your path you can break the aforementioned effect by weaving across your lane. Works a treat.

[MyGSXF]

when you see a car waiting to turn across your path you can break the aforementioned effect by weaving across your lane. Works a treat.

Yep.. :niceone: along with

We need to make ourselves as VISIBLE as possible!! Wear a brightly coloured helmet, put some reflective stickers on it for extra night time visibility. Ride with headlight on. Wear coloured gear.. & better yet, a brightly coloured vest! All these things add together to break that motion camouflage effect! They will draw the drivers eyes to us like a magnet!! :eek5:

Biking is about riding.. enjoying the ride.. & staying ALIVE!! Anything we can do to promote that.. is all good! :Punk:

[Maha]

At times, speed has a part to play in the senario....
Yes they see the bike, but dont judge the speed right...
When you are in controll of any vehicle, the subconscious mind is active.
You do things without knowing that you are, distance perception is altered due to surroundings etc. You may glance at a moving object and 'think' that what you are seeing is moving at a speed you percive to be the 'correct' speed, where at times, on the road, this object (in this case a motorbike) can be moving alot quicker than the posted speed limit. If you were to look at the moving object for more than 1.5 seconds, chances are, you would probably judge the speed more accurately.

[PrincessBandit]

Yep.. :niceone: along with

We need to make ourselves as VISIBLE as possible!! Wear a brightly coloured helmet, put some reflective stickers on it for extra night time visibility. Ride with headlight on. Wear coloured gear.. & better yet, a brightly coloured vest! All these things add together to break that motion camouflage effect! They will draw the drivers eyes to us like a magnet!! :eek5:



Psychedelic is the new black!!!!!

[Indiana_Jones]

The last guy to drive into me 'didn't see me'.

Considering I was stopped at a giveway with a hi-vi on....

You're pretty much fucked on a bike lol

-Indy

[Marmoot]

Ha....motion camouflage. yep.

Good luck to those filtering on the motorways in the dusk these days with their lights on. Just remember there are a few hundred other lights on behind you in the drivers' side mirrors.

Your bike headlights are just be a pinch of salt in the vast ocean.

[bogan]

thats some pretty intresting info, i always thort it was drivers not bothering to look for smaller objects than cars. I assume the size of cars somewhat negates this motion camflauge effect. Though with some motorists i expect nothing short of flashing lights will alert them to your prescense, i ended up tboning an old lady in a laser cos she didnt see me, despite the light on low beam, red jacket, and black and white bike.

[P38]

Another good countermeasure for the above mentioned effects that I use is a polite toot on my horn followed by a simple wave like this

:finger:

Dont know what it is but when you employ this type of countermeasure they instantly see you and take measures to allow you to pass.

Most of the time this involves them waving back too. :wavey::scooter:

[CookMySock]

I use a very subtle combination of weaving about like a demented idiot, intimidating as fuck dressed in black, nasty magnesium-bright headlight, grrrowl crackle pop bang boom loud vtwin exhaust note. Yup, I think thats about it. OH, and I drive straight at people like I am going to RAM them. Suffice to say, it is about as subtle as an approaching freight train.

Would YOU pull out in front of me? Noooo! :nono:

Steve

[Jantar]

The looming effect is also why the motorist will almost always claim the motorcyclist was speeding.

[Chrislost]

We've all experienced it.. driver pulls out in front of us.. then pleads ignorance.. "I didn't see you" :argh:

Two things are going on here..

"Motion Camouflage" & "The Looming Effect"

Motion Camouflage: When a bike can effectively become invisible to the driver waiting to pull out. The drivers eyes are fooled into believing a moving object is stationary! When a rider travels down a line that extends from a fixed point behind the bike directly to the eye of a driver waiting at the junction ahead. The rider's size does not appear to increase as they travel down this line & so they blend in to the background! As a result, the driver is not alerted to the presence of the bike because his brain is scanning for movement. Finally as the bike nears the car, an effect called "looming" occurs - which is where the bike suddenly grows in size, destroying the motion camouflage and becoming visible to the driver. But a natural response to looming means the drivers are momentarily frozen the the spot :eek5:

Looming Effect: is the perceived rapid increase in the size of an object as it gets closer to an observer. It is our primary method for assessing whether something will collide with us or not. Looming works on the part of the brain's visual cortex that uses 'edge detection' to alert it to the presence of movement. If the edges of an object - such as a bike moving down a street - cannot be detected, then no alert is triggered. :doh:

Looming is a key factor in the 'flight or fight' response mechanism of animals. The decision to flight or flee is preceded by a momentary 'freeze' phase, while the brain flips a coin and prepares the body for whichever action it will take. :wait:

It is looming that suddenly reveals the bike to a motorists stunned eyes, as it grows in size and triggers the alarms in the visual cortex. :crazy:

The looming effect is probably what freezes them to the spot with a rabbit-in-the-headlights look of horror once they spot the bike! :shit:

Comes from notes given at an advanced rider training course!



sounds liek a scientist crashed into a biker (not in NZ) and while in jail for killing him thought up some bullshit to explain his actions.

[Mully]

Good luck to those filtering on the motorways in the dusk these days with their lights on.
Your bike headlights are just be a pinch of salt in the vast ocean.

That's the main reason I filter with an indicator on. I figure a flashing light may attract notice better.

And I filter like a little pig-tailed girl.


i always thort it was drivers not bothering to look for smaller objects than cars.

This was/is my theory. Subconsiously, you see a smaller vehicle but your mind doesn't register it as a threat. A bike hitting you probably wont hurt you, a car or truck hitting you will fuck you like you owe it money.
Probably why you don't see many SMIDSYs with cars pulling in front of trucks.

[scumdog]

But when we try to prevent this, we get 151 posts on KB calling us retards on the Southern motorway! :girlfight:

So how many intersections are there on the Southern Motorway that you need to make yourself 'visible' to?

[Big Dave]

Personally I believe in the majority of cases it's simply because they don't look.

Of course the accident reports say - 'I didn't see her/him' and the authorities respond with 'make yourself more visible'.

I agree and advise everyone to do the same.

However in the close calls I've had the driver hasn't even cast a glance my way. Fortunately I've been watching them.

'I just did not look properly' or ' yeah I was having an argument on my mobile phone' or 'I was texting' doesn't go down too well with Mr Plod and the insurance company though. 'I didn't see him' is far more plausible.

Making yourself visible is not as important as assuming nobody can see you and the mind set it's up to you to miss them. You could have flashing lights and sirens and some still 'wouldn't see you'.

I assume every driver will do something stupid and is blind. I figure that is how I have survived as long anyway.

[PirateJafa]

So how many intersections are there on the Southern Motorway that you need to make yourself 'visible' to?
Apparently a single KBer with a stick up his arse is all it takes.

[MaxCannon]

Something I've always done is to make eye contact with anyone looking to pull out of an intersection across my path.

In the car and on the bike.

Has saved me a couple of times from an accident when people have not even looked before turning out.
Since I never saw them look my way I knew they'd do something stupid and was already on the brakes and looking for an escape route.

Single most important rule is think of everyone else on the road as if they are tying to kill you - because 1/2 of them probably are.

[NordieBoy]

Suffice to say, it is about as subtle as an approaching freight train.

Would YOU pull out in front of me? Noooo! :nono:

Ummm...
People pull out in front of freight trains too.

[sharknet]

Yep.. :niceone: along with

We need to make ourselves as VISIBLE as possible!! Wear a brightly coloured helmet, put some reflective stickers on it for extra night time visibility. Ride with headlight on. Wear coloured gear.. & better yet, a brightly coloured vest! All these things add together to break that motion camouflage effect! They will draw the drivers eyes to us like a magnet!! :eek5:

Biking is about riding.. enjoying the ride.. & staying ALIVE!! Anything we can do to promote that.. is all good! :Punk:

Yeah, but it don't work either. I normally tow with a LARGE 4X4, extra lights (think Vegas) bright paintwork, width markers etc,etc, and some tossers STILL miss me and pull out. (due to the bars on the front, usually only once...)
Never had a bike do it 'tho, maybe there is a correlation between the number of wheels and operator inteligence?

[CookMySock]

Ummm... People pull out in front of freight trains too.That is statistically small in comparison to bikes and cars. People who pull out in front of trains will die. On the same theme, if people pull out in front of me and force me to hit them, they should make certain I cannot see their drivers door, because if I can they better slide over in their seat so my bike can fit in there too.


Yeah, but it don't work either. I normally tow with a LARGE 4X4, extra lights (think Vegas) bright paintwork, width markers etc,etc, and some tossers STILL miss me and pull out. (due to the bars on the front, usually only once...)
Try upping your speed a little,, and driving straight at them. :crazy: They don't then hehehe because they want to stay ALIVE. What you get then is people calling you an asshole, but thats just sour grapes since they are bottom of the food chain - boo hoo hoo. One stern glare through the tinted visor (which always looks like a stern glare LOL) and they go "ewps, you go first!

I find the more I am careful on the road the less others are careful. The more I pussy around the more others take advantage. If I look completely out of control and drive around like a demented idiot people stay WELL THE FUCK BACK.

Steve

[mugins]

Yep.. :niceone: along with

We need to make ourselves as VISIBLE as possible!! Wear a brightly coloured helmet, put some reflective stickers on it for extra night time visibility. Ride with headlight on. Wear coloured gear.. & better yet, a brightly coloured vest! All these things add together to break that motion camouflage effect! They will draw the drivers eyes to us like a magnet!! :eek5:

Biking is about riding.. enjoying the ride.. & staying ALIVE!! Anything we can do to promote that.. is all good! :Punk:

Funny thing ,being Visible,i use to drive 44ton trucks for a crust head lights and fog lights on all the time,and people incuding us bikers would still pull out in front of you.:argh:Land Transport say only about 18% of bike accidents involve more than one vehicle.Is being VISIBLE really going to make that big a difference or does our riding need to change as well.

[90s]

Yep.. :niceone: along with

We need to make ourselves as VISIBLE as possible!! Wear a brightly coloured helmet, put some reflective stickers on it for extra night time visibility. Ride with headlight on. Wear coloured gear.. & better yet, a brightly coloured vest! All these things add together to break that motion camouflage effect!

Sorry MYGSXF but there is no evidence to indicate this is so. It seems to make sense, but as other poster attest but not in practice seem to have the impact you would think.

Still I am glad that you have not been pranged - that's what I thought had happened when I read your header. Glad the GSXF is OK - you too.

[CookMySock]

The best way to be seen is polarise hell out of everyone. You are going to make a few enemies, but what would you rather?

Steve

[Tank]

From the Mentor thread ...



On a personal note, I'm disappointed to not be a mentor, but I don't have anything but basic experience, so I am happy enough with that. ish. <_< I still get to mentor my kids, so maybe I'll have it out of my system by then.


Then on how to be seen ...



I find the more I am careful on the road the less others are careful. The more I pussy around the more others take advantage. If I look completely out of control and drive around like a demented idiot people stay WELL THE FUCK BACK.

I can see why the mentoring thing didnt work out.

Seriously - you cannot consider this good advise for people. Noob riders come on here and look for advise - it pays to offer sensible suggestions - riding like a demented idiot probably isn't one of them.

Simply put - I wear bright colours, ride in a position of the road to maximize my visibility to other road users and have my lights on (dipped) and ride in a defensive manner.

Very rare to have a problem.

[bogan]

Seriously - you cannot consider this good advise for people. Noob riders come on here and look for advise - it pays to offer sensible suggestions - riding like a demented idiot probably isn't one of them.

Simply put - I wear bright colours, ride in a position of the road to maximize my visibility to other road users and have my lights on (dipped) and ride in a defensive manner.

Very rare to have a problem.

i also ride to maximise visibility and ride in a defensive manner, but a breif weave before an intersection (done defensively of course) may help the cagers see me, by negating this looming effect, that is what i thort he meant anyway, not to actually ride like an idiot.


The best way to be seen is polarise hell out of everyone. You are going to make a few enemies, but what would you rather?
what is this polarise you speak of and how is it done?

[LBD]

Personally I believe in the majority of cases it's simply because they don't look.

I beleive Dave has it...or so my experience has been in 35 years on the road...

I have had two accidents and subsequently two near misses....and were almost all the same and by the drivers admission "I did not see you, because I did not look, because I was not expecting to see anyone else...."

Wish I was driving a truck on those occasions, but then the truck would have more presence and they would have noticed me...

The last occasion was classic, I had followed the slow vehical for some 200 m, head light on clear sunny day. I could see the drivers face in his side mirror, I indicated and flashed my head light, committed to overtake, then accelerated and at the worst possible moment he drove across in front of me into a small roadway to the right, and my first stoppie ensued....After the abuse settled I spoke with hime and the same story cme out....Did not see because did not look because he assumed there was no other traffic....

[CookMySock]

what is this polarise you speak of and how is it done?Do anything different, irritating, noisy, bright, fast, slow, alarming, unusual, or just about anything different you can think of to wake everyone else up. Its the opposite being a conformist and staying in line. Don't put yourself at risk, just make it look like it. ;)

Someone will complain. Cops will frown. Your wife will go quiet. Cagers will get irate at you, and grippers like Tank will scream the place down, but EVERYONE will notice you and then they will GTFO your way.

Steve

[BMWST?]

Do anything different, irritating, noisy, bright, fast, slow, alarming, unusual, or just about anything different you can think of to wake everyone else up. Its the opposite being a conformist and staying in line. Don't put yourself at risk, just make it look like it. ;)

Someone will complain. Cops will frown. Your wife will go quiet. Cagers will get irate at you, and grippers like Tank will scream the place down, but EVERYONE will notice you and then they will GTFO your way.

Steve

nice theory but it wont work.....there will still be people who wont LOOK for you.You need to moderate your behaviur a little bit to allow for the day it happens.I Do beleive that you CAN be assertive,just dont take it to far....

[davebullet]

When commuting, you must always have an escape route planned throughout your journey.

Maybe its to the right next to the cheesecutter when that idiot behind is traveling too close and you need to slow down for the traffic queue...

Maybe its riding the bumper of the car just to your right when splitting and infront of that car to the right is a huge gap...

Making yourself as visible as possible is a good thing, but you have to take responsibility when that person hasn't seen you and you can best escape.

[CookMySock]

nice theory but it wont work.....there will still be people who wont LOOK for you.You need to moderate your behaviur a little bit to allow for the day it happens.I Do beleive that you CAN be assertive,just dont take it to far....Well it does work, but I agree some people simply fail to look, or are distracted. My theory is to appear far more bothersome and/or fearsome than anything else, so their cellphone dropped on the floor pales into insignificance compared to my growly bike through their drivers' window.

There was a car-vs-bike crash right in the Whakatane town yesterday. I was dodging rain this morning and got talking to a bloke who was there, and he reckoned the car went straight through a give way sign and T-boned the biker big-time. Bone sticking out of leg etc etc etc, bike flung some distance. How the hell the cager could have done that is beyond me. Either no brain or no eyes.

Yeah so point taken.

Steve

[chester]

Yep.. :niceone: along with

We need to make ourselves as VISIBLE as possible!! Wear a brightly coloured helmet, put some reflective stickers on it for extra night time visibility. Ride with headlight on. Wear coloured gear.. & better yet, a brightly coloured vest! All these things add together to break that motion camouflage effect! They will draw the drivers eyes to us like a magnet!! :eek5:

Biking is about riding.. enjoying the ride.. & staying ALIVE!! Anything we can do to promote that.. is all good! :Punk:

dont mean to be rude... but never have seen you wearing a glow vest while riding , practice what you preach eh........:girlfight:

[Supertwin Don]

FWIW - how about getting the government to have a decent "see what you are looking at " campaign - instead of constantly trying to have the victim make up for other people's idiocy:mad:

I don't normally ride with headlight on - people see you a long way away and then forget you!
I don't wear a hi-viz garment - the eyesight test over here is to read a BLACK number on a white or yellow background.

and on the way home, I'l probably be taken out by a smidsy!!!!:crybaby:

[CookMySock]

FWIW - how about getting the government to have a decent "see what you are looking at " campaign - instead of constantly trying to have the victim make up for other people's idiocy:mad:Well said.


I don't normally ride with headlight on - people see you a long way away and then forget you!I don't know about that logic.

Steve

[jrandom]

We need to make ourselves as VISIBLE as possible!! Wear a brightly coloured helmet, put some reflective stickers on it for extra night time visibility. Ride with headlight on. Wear coloured gear.. & better yet, a brightly coloured vest!

Horseshit. A timid rider covered in neon signs will still get creamed every time, because...


Personally I believe in the majority of cases it's simply because they don't look.

Big Dave's spot on.


Biking is about riding.. enjoying the ride.. & staying ALIVE!! Anything we can do to promote that.. is all good!

Has anyone else ever noticed that it's the people who basically can't ride who always witter on about this safety bollocks?

[NordieBoy]

Has anyone else ever noticed that it's the people who basically can't ride who always witter on about this safety bollocks?

Isn't Rossi on the riders safety council thingy?

[MyGSXF]

Has anyone else ever noticed that it's the people who basically can't ride who always witter on about this safety bollocks?

Has any one else ever noticed that's it's the people who think far too much of their own opinion, who always twitter on about shit they no nothing about.... :yawn:??

Have you ever met me..? have you ever been out riding with me..! :rolleyes:

I have completed several 'advanced rider training courses' with 'Roadsafe' & have been helper at several courses, over the past 3 years. I am also in the process of training to be a riding instructor with them, myself! but wit there's more.. & gee.. I'm also a KB mentor... :doh::stupid:

Maybe you shouldn't generalize like you tend to do, quite sooooo much... :whistle:

[James Deuce]

Have you ever noticed how women type people overreact to Jrandom's trolling?

He must be a manly man.

[Gummie]

Back to subject.
The recent adverts on tv about crashes at intersections.
Why do none of them involve bikes it would be the perfect opertunity to show people that there are bikes and even trucks that use intersections too.
In the ad its just cars like they are the only vehicles on the road.
I drive/ride cars, trucks and bikes every day :2thumbsup and i use intersections just like everyone else.

[bogan]

Back to subject.
The recent adverts on tv about crashes at intersections.
Why do none of them involve bikes it would be the perfect opertunity to show people that there are bikes and even trucks that use intersections too.
In the ad its just cars like they are the only vehicles on the road.
I drive/ride cars, trucks and bikes every day :2thumbsup and i use intersections just like everyone else.

An excellent point, i assume you mean the ones with the weird looking guy spinning the wheel. A somewhat brutal interpretation could be a guy pulls out in front of a bike, then view cuts to pick of said bike buried up to swingarm in drivers side door, wud be somewhat graphic but i think itd get the point across, well as much is as possible with a tv advert anyway.

[Maha]

Is the car driver wrong in this case?

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[Maha]

This has probably been up before but...

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/SXI8-_9FrB4&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/SXI8-_9FrB4&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

[MyGSXF]

This has probably been up before but...


Thanks Maha.. that was the one I was thinking of!! :2thumbsup

[Maha]

Thanks Maha.. that was the one I was thinking of!! :2thumbsup

I saw one last night, cant find it though, person opens a car door and a bike hits it, it was an advert.