My crash, what did I do wrong?

[Roki_nz]

On Good Friday I had my first crash which I thankfully walked away from with only a few bruises and a broken bike.

In my view it was a preventable crash if I had acted differently. While I have an idea of what I did wrong and what I could have done differently I feel it would be better to just say what happened and tell you what I did and let anyone who wishes to, give me their ideas and thoughts on what I did wrong and what I could have done differently so that I and others might learn from my mistakes.

I was riding on state highway two near Belmount, it was a sunny day and road surface was slightly slippery from the heat. I was riding with a friend who was at least three seconds ahead of me. As we came up to an intersection I see him start to break and I start to apply the breaks slowly, I quickly glance at my side mirror then back up to see that my friend is breaking very hard and I am coming up on him far faster than I anticipated. I slam on my breaks and start to slide in a straight line. I try and release the breaks and reapply them but the tail end start to slide to the left then to the right (I suspect that in the rush I only released my front break and failed to release my rear). I manage to keep it just under control for anther second until it finally tips over and I go over the bars and end up on the road.

At the time I believe I was doing around 90 to 100km before the crash and as I broke I am unsure if I pulled in the clutch or left it out.

Somewhere in there I screwed up, so what do you think I did wrong and what should I have done differently?

[JimO]

you should have used your brakes

[ducatilover]

That is hard to say, I can only think if you were able to apply the pressure to the brakes slowly instead of grabbing a handful, letting off and re applying was the right idea after locking up [in my mind] doesn't sound like either of you were being twats from your story, try practice emergency braking is all I really think would help. Hope the bike isn't too bad mate

[Grahameeboy]

I am puzzled why you checked your mirror...in that few seconds you lost valuable thinking time i.e. realising your mate was stopping quicker so you had to jump on the brakes quicker due to slight panic

[spookytooth]

If you have to get on the breaks hard like that shift your arse as far back on the seat as ya can,i

[Marmoot]

I was riding with a friend who was at least three seconds ahead of me. As we came up to an intersection I see him start to break and I start to apply the breaks slowly, I quickly glance at my side mirror then back up to see that my friend is breaking very hard and I am coming up on him far faster than I anticipated. I slam on my breaks and start to slide in a straight line. I try and release the breaks and reapply them but the tail end start to slide to the left then to the right (I suspect that in the rush I only released my front break and failed to release my rear). I manage to keep it just under control for anther second until it finally tips over and I go over the bars and end up on the road.

1. Looking back when braking is not a good idea. Don't worry, you won't go backwards like in Playstation even if you hold the brake.
2. Slam. Nice! Slamming a brake is the exact opposite of doing burnouts, but similar in consequences.
3. Release the brake would've caused you not to loose speed. Varying pressure would instead.
4. If your rear slides, don't panic and keep it that way.
5. If your front slides, don't panic you'll be on the ground very soon before you even know it.

[retro asian]

1. Looking back when braking is not a good idea. Don't worry, you won't go backwards like in Playstation even if you hold the brake.


I'm not sure if looking back is a good idea or not...But what if there's a huge truck close behind you?
Say you do a perfect sudden stop, but the truck ploughs you to death.

The better option in that case might be to veer off the road rather than brake?

[Katman]

I'd suggest not riding in the wheel tracks of the bike in front. If you're to one side it gives you more room to stop.

Checking your mirrors when braking is something I do very often - especially if I'm stopping in the middle of the road to turn right.

[James Deuce]

Everything that went wrong happened before you touched the brakes. The heavy braking and subsequent tip over are merely symptoms of a lack of forward planning.

Stop beating yourself up too, I think you had a damn good crack at avoiding a major, you just hadn't given yourself the mental space to avoid the problem altogether.

Now you have the perfect terms of reference for what to practice, both mentally and physically.

[CookMySock]

Good on ya for asking for review. This is what I think.

90-100k sounds a little quick in there.

The thing you looked at in the mirror - was that something you had noticed earlier? Preoccupied with it?

Braking so you skid the back wheel a bit is not too bad, but yes you are pannicing a bit there. Pretty much there is nothing more that can be done with the back brake at that point - all your concentration should have been elsewhere - the back brake is not really part of a good solution. Did you apply the front brakes equally hard from the beginning?

In the few seconds before impact I would have been searching for a gap and planning an evasive swerve. Release or reduce braking, bar-push hard, scrape footpegs, aim for gap, and hope. You are better to steer rather than freeze up and slide into something.

The clutch and gears are unimportant at a time like this. On a larger bike its important to physically close the throttle as its easy to brain-lock and hold quite a bit of power on.

If you can flip the bike under braking you have plenty of traction.

Summarising ;

What is behind you is not in front of you - ignore it!

Slow down around intersections and watch for hidden queues.

In an emergency brake early - HARD with the front brake. HARD and EARLY. Back off as the speed comes back.

ALWAYS plan an escape route when heading quickly into a convoluted environment. If you can't see a clear way out then SLOW DOWN NOW.

Be prepared to swerve HARD and ignore your angle of lean. If you are GOING to hit something, then swerve the fucker hard with your brakes off or greatly reduced. In emergency - repeat after me - "Bar push or die." You MIGHT ditch the bike in an evasive swerve, but you WILL ditch it if you dont. Do it.


IMO YMMV ETC AD NAUSEUM
Steve

[Marmoot]

I'm not sure if looking back is a good idea or not...But what if there's a huge truck close behind you?
Say you do a perfect sudden stop, but the truck ploughs you to death.

The better option in that case might be to veer off the road rather than brake?

Road Code said (and I agree with it in this issue) to scan your mirrors regularly every few seconds (I think it is either 6 or 10). If there was a large truck behind you at that time you should have known and have acted accordingly.

I still recommend against braking from 100kph while looking backwards.

[The Pastor]

You didnt stay upright

[The Stranger]

I'm not sure if looking back is a good idea or not...But what if there's a huge truck close behind you?

You hope like hell he's not looking in the mirror as well.

[yungatart]

Always plan an escape route when you are riding. Forward planning could have given you somewhere to go.
Practice emergency braking in a controlled manner.
Do a Ride Right, Ride Safe course.

[varminter]

I'd like a bit more info. If, as you say, you were approaching an intersection then 90 to 100 K's seems too fast (I'm a cautious old fart). I would have been working down the gears anticipating having to stop. Was your mate stopping for something other than the intersection? was you trying to avoid him/her. I don't worry too much about what's behind me unless I'm changing direction, most of the danger's in front. Glad you're ok.

[EJK]

You are lucky that front didn't lose traction when you gave a handful at 90-100kph. I'm amazed.

[Ixion]

Don't brake, brakes are way overrated, only cagers brake. Dodge.

[madbikeboy]

I'd suggest not riding in the wheel tracks of the bike in front. If you're to one side it gives you more room to stop.

Checking your mirrors when braking is something I do very often - especially if I'm stopping in the middle of the road to turn right.

I agree with KatMan and JD.

Sounds like lack of planning, lack of thinking, poor situational awareness. Further, bad technique for braking, and if you hit what you're looking at, target fixation.

Planning is about making sure you've got an escape route planned every moment of every ride. If you can't do this, buy a car. If x happens, I go this way. If y happens, I do this.

Lack of thinking - the most important performance device on the bike, is between your ears.

Poor situational awareness - not positioning yourself correctly, and worse, not knowing what is around you. You're risking other peoples lives as well as your own.

Bad braking techniques - practice, practice some more, then do it again. I practice braking drills every week or two. And I've been riding a while.

Look, the answers are fairly obvious - get some time with a mentor - do some skill sessions, and do it now. The dinky test and plastic thing in your wallet in no way qualify you for the real life experience that is motorcycling.

Good luck, and take it easy out there.

KM, can you PM the lad some mentors in his area?

[tri boy]

Altitude is a pilots best friend.
Distance between your motorcycle and anything that can fuck you up is your best friend.

Speed, Time and distance traveled is the lesson to learn well.

[Tony W]

Altitude is a pilots best friend.
Distance between your motorcycle and anything that can fuck you up is your best friend.

Speed, Time and distance traveled is the lesson to learn well.


Bugger. What's the damage?
I think that little look in the mirror did it... just taking your eyes off what's happening in front, when following, for a split second can... well...:Oops:

Hope everything works out ok.

[alanzs]

Good on ya for asking after your crash. Glad you are ok.

Sounds like you were too close and going too fast. Simple answer; stay back and slow down.

I'd like to think that I would have done better, but shit happens and I have been in accidents before. Thats why they are called accidents.

The best thing is that you are alive and able to ride another day.

[Roki_nz]

I'd like a bit more info. If, as you say, you were approaching an intersection then 90 to 100 K's seems too fast (I'm a cautious old fart). I would have been working down the gears anticipating having to stop. Was your mate stopping for something other than the intersection? was you trying to avoid him/her. I don't worry too much about what's behind me unless I'm changing direction, most of the danger's in front. Glad you're ok.

We were on state highway two, two lanes one-way. My mate broke because the car ahead of him slammed on their breaks, I think because the lights had changed to yellow and the car closest to the intersection decided to break at the last moment instead of going through (at least that what the traffic cop thought, I only am sure that the car in front of my mate slammed on its breaks it all happened very quickly). I opted to break at the time, as the only possible escape route was too head up between the lanes and between the cars to give me more room to slow down and I remember thinking that I might skid on the cats eyes?

Anyways thanks to everyone who has given me feedback. From what happened and what you all have said sounds like I screwed up pretty good.

First by not planning ahead and not slowing down when I was approaching the intersection.

Secondly by checking my mirrors instead of looking ahead to see how hard the vehicle ahead of me were breaking. It would have been far safer to keep my attention forward until it was safe to see what was coming up behind me.

And lastly by not been competent in emergency breaking. In the past I have almost always gotten out of harms way by choosing an escape route but this time I felt it was safer to break.

Feel free to add anything I might have missed



Bugger. What's the damage?
I think that little look in the mirror did it... just taking your eyes off what's happening in front, when following, for a split second can... well...:Oops:

Hope everything works out ok.

Also as for the question of damage to the bike short answer is foot peg ripped off, gear level broken, fairing scratched up etc to value of $4100, thankfully states paying most of that. As for me I was lucky that I managed to stop/crash the bike and didn’t hit anyone. I went over the bars and got up with only a sore heel and a couple of bruises so I am very lucky, wearing full gear certainly helped.

[Katman]

Secondly by checking my mirrors instead of looking ahead to see how hard the vehicle ahead of me were breaking.

Checking your mirrors was not a problem.

[cowboyz]

Ill +1 on the planning.

I often check my mirrors on initial braking to make sure nothing is there that I didnt notice before, but then I very rarely check my mirrors any other time.

I would say a little bit of stun set in when you realised the speed differenial between you and your mate. At this stage I would have been putting plan B into action which would have involved some or all of the following.

Escape. taking alternative route to avoid hitting something.
Using gearbox to pull the bike up quicker, being a bit careful about locking things up worse than they already are.
focus on the biggest, clearest gap I can find.

my thoughts and congrats for asking

[BMWST?]

Checking your mirrors was not a problem.

checking mirrors is a problem when he should have been watching what was unfolding ahead.In that split second he "lost control" of the situation.One should always be aware what is behind.If there was a big truck behind him that could mow him down he could have gone for the LH turn exit,but you cant decide that if you are lokking in the mirror!

[CookMySock]

the only possible escape route was too head up between the lanes and between the cars to give me more room to slow down and I remember thinking that I might skid on the cats eyes?Now what would you do next time, with the advantage of hindsight? Those catseyes look a bit safer than hitting the back of some car or truck. ;) As you say, you still COULD have clipped a car.


Secondly by checking my mirrors instead of looking ahead to see how hard the vehicle ahead of me were breaking. It would have been far safer to keep my attention forward until it was safe to see what was coming up behind me.AFTER you have resolved the problems in FRONT of you, then it is the time to resolve the problems BEHIND you. If you are lucky you get to balance the two risks and make an informed choice - but great calmness during the crisis and a clear mind is required. Experience!


Checking your mirrors was not a problem.No, but he spent too long there. Prioritise and solve each problem in turn.

Steve

[cowboyz]

you make it sound like checking a mirror is a big issue of turning round and painting a picture of everything around you while having a ciggy.

I absoultely condone checking mirrors when initially braking as a part of situational awareness. I think this was a correct move and did not contribute to the crash. Just needed a bit more planning and not panicing or tensing.

I always say you can do *anything* on a bike, just as long as you do it *delibriately*. And that is the key. If your actions are controlled and delibriate then you are much better off.

[discotex]

My mate broke because the car ahead of him slammed on their breaks, I think because the lights had changed to yellow and the car closest to the intersection decided to break at the last moment instead of going through

You mean they followed the law and stopped for an orange light if it was safe for them to do so? Amazing.

Sounds like your mistake was to assume the car would run the orange and you would too. Or your mistake was to not be aware that the lights went orange.

And you were following way too close if you didn't have time to do a quick mirror check and still keep the situation under control.

Not having a go as I've made all those mistakes myself. I've just got away with it.

[discotex]

I absoultely condone checking mirrors when initially braking as a part of situational awareness. I think this was a correct move and did not contribute to the crash. Just needed a bit more planning and not panicing or tensing.


+1

I almost always check my mirrors when braking. Been a number of times that it's saved me from being rear-ended.

[Katman]

checking mirrors is a problem when he should have been watching what was unfolding ahead.In that split second he "lost control" of the situation.One should always be aware what is behind.If there was a big truck behind him that could mow him down he could have gone for the LH turn exit,but you cant decide that if you are lokking in the mirror!

WTF?????????

:wacko:

[cowboyz]

I get really nervous about being rear ended, I am just not that type of guy.

When braking I make sure if anyone behind me then they know what I am doing and if I am the last in the queue then I stop aside (but still behind) the vehicle in front of me and keen 1 eye on my mirrors. I have had one occasion where a vehicle didnt stop where they should have and I did the fuckoffski to avoid getting squashed between 2 cars.

[awayatc]

if you don't brake in time, that's when things break.....

[discotex]

I suspect that in the rush I only released my front break and failed to release my rear

That's probably why you couldn't save it.

Personally I think it's much safer to learn to do all your braking with the front brake only as in a real emergency you don't usually have the ability to modulate both brakes. For whatever reason it seems many people let off the front when the rear locks. That's about the worst thing you can do.

You're much better to be using the front brake as it can stop you - unlike the rear.

(cruisers not included)

[cowpoos]

so what do you think I did wrong and what should I have done differently?

You didn't practise....

[2wheeldrifter]

Seems to be clear to me that you were going to fast into an intersection, you said came off around 100k's after your braking!!! So how fast were you going???

Looking into your mirror was NOT the problem, I check whats behind me when coming to any stop. Some of us can brake and look into our mirrors at the same time... for god's sake we a riding a machine that requires multiple tasks to be performed all at once and some seem to be finding it hard to just brake in a straight line and check your mirror!!! WTF!!!!!

[alanzs]

Seems to be clear to me that you were going to fast into an intersection, you said came off around 100k's after your braking!!! So how fast were you going???

Looking into your mirror was NOT the problem, I check whats behind me when coming to any stop. Some of us can brake and look into our mirrors at the same time... for god's sake we a riding a machine that requires multiple tasks to be performed all at once and some seem to be finding it hard to just brake in a straight line and check your mirror!!! WTF!!!!!

Not to brag, but one time I was braking both brakes, looking in my mirror AND thinking about the text my wife sent me telling me she was waiting for me in bed and could I get home immediately. That would be three things, all at once. :hug:

[DELLORTO]

unless you are on a freeway you should not be doing 100k, sounds like you
were going too fast for your level of attention and ability. when riding in a group, tailgating is going to get you into trouble, ride in a staggered formation and don't keep you eyes on your mates or on someones cool bike all the time. having said that we all need a spill to wake up to our true riding abilities.- dellorto's dad

[owner]

I'm with Poo's practice! get to know your brakes well, Your bike is an awesome machine. Practice emergency stopping!
If your riding slow enough for something to be behind you, sure check your mirrors while braking.
Practice rear wheel slides when your tyre is nearly had it, to get an idea of pressure on the pedal and they are fun to do
Also practice stoppies. I had done a few track days and 15000km of road riding braking with my fore finger only. Once I started practicing stoppies I discovered I can brake alot harder with two fingers Its all practice.

And planning and avoidance

[ecnal]

I am a licenced motorcycle instructor, I agree with dangerousbastard, no point in repeating what he said,
I would reitterate though the need for more front than rear brake, you will suprised how quickly you can pull up a bike with good braking I always recommend to learners 60% front 40 percent rear, as you get to know your bike and yourself you should be increasing this ratio, to max of about 75/25, you must use both to keep the bike balnce and to have it set it iself down on the suspension as you brake.

[James Deuce]

unless you are on a freeway you should not be doing 100k, sounds like you
were going too fast for your level of attention and ability. when riding in a group, tailgating is going to get you into trouble, ride in a staggered formation and don't keep you eyes on your mates or on someones cool bike all the time. having said that we all need a spill to wake up to our true riding abilities.- dellorto's dad

What the hell is a freeway?

If you're attempting to intimate that SH2 doesn't have a 100 km/hr speed limit then you'd be a bit incorrect in your assumption.

[AD345]

I had a very similar experience last Sunday on the "Make My Day" run. It was a tad wet and the group was bunched as we came to the turn off from SH2.

I was wiping my visor and looked up to see rows of brake lights, over braked, biiiig fishtail left, then right then left again...

..then straight and on my way. I've gotta be a little less lazy on the front brakes.

For reasons I won't go ito now I don't stress too much about the rear fishtailing - it can be quite fun.

However, it is not optimal for braking. It can usually be ridden out of pretty easily with practice.

there was the time when the Kat went 50 or more metres sideways down the Mangaweka hill............but that's another story

[Felix52]

Something a driving instructor once told me about was "stale green" traffic lights. The idea is that if you see a green traffic light, and didn't see it change to green, then it's stale, and you should be prepared for it to change to orange at any moment.

It means you end up fairly cautious any time you're coming up to traffic lights, which isn't a bad thing.

Anyway, good on you for getting advice to try and stop it happening again (and this thread's made me think about going and practicing my emergency braking some more...)

[NighthawkNZ]

My crash, what did I do wrong? ?

You didn't stop in time... that is what you did wrong

Obviously traveling to close directly behind the rider in front of you (should be staggered) and that split second glancing in your mirror when the problem was ahead of you not behind you?

You probably need to practice some emergency braking...

[CookMySock]

[..] "stale green" traffic lights. The idea is that if you see a green traffic light, and didn't see it change to green, then it's stale, and you should be prepared for it to change to orange at any moment.That is one of the few things I picked up in my Defensive Driving Course. I'd never heard of the term before.


I am a licenced motorcycle instructor, I agree with dangerousbastard, no point in repeating what he said,I make good scones too.

Steve

[motorbyclist]

TL;DR

practice your emergency brake!

and know what is behind you before it's an issue

[madbikeboy]

Okay, some of this is good, some is shit.

From experience, knowing what is around you all the time is the key - as I'm braking, I'm checking my mirrors, checking for escape routes, planning ahead, changing down, braking progressively and correctly (which will differ depending on style of bike, and if you are 2up).

Intersections present danger from all directions - from in front (as you found out, from either side, and from behind. Use common sense - if the light is stale, be prepared to stop. Even if it changed two seconds ago, be prepared to stop or avoid the red light runner in any direction. As it changes red, be prepared to be rear ended. I always stop between cars, and use them as a defensive layer. The road code says I should stop behind, but that leaves me exposed. Shelter in the lee of heavy metal.

To be very, very clear - spend some of your attention (not all) to check what's behind you - KatMan has huge experience in the most dangerous place for motorcyclists on the planet - and he spent years doing it - take his advice on this one.

Go and see a mentor - there's lots of skills that you will learn in a very short time - some of it is blindingly obvious, some take longer to acquire.

Treat every intersection as a possible danger - it's where we are most exposed.

[Roki_nz]

Seems to be clear to me that you were going to fast into an intersection, you said came off around 100k's after your braking!!! So how fast were you going???

Just to clear that up I was doing 90 to 100km before i started breaking not when I came off, I bled a good chunk of the speed away before I crashed. I'm am not saying that I was going the correct speed when approaching that intersection as the result of my actions speak for them selves

[scuzeme]

Roki, what do you mean the road was slippery becuase of the heat? that doesnt make sense, you may have already answered these qustions but i cant be buggered reading all the replies.

I think that you applied too much back brake too quickly and locked it up mate thats why your bike started to fish tail and the back started to come round this is a classic back brake lockup scenario which leads to a high side.
Remember 70% of your braking comes from the front brake and contrary to popular belief you can grab a gob of front brake on a dry road, as long as your on a straight as opposed to a lean youl do a good stoppy and go over the handle bars before the front will wash out side ways.

The reason you got yourself into this situation in the first place sounds like you where:
1.following a little to close for the speed you were going
2.going to fast while approaching an intersection
3.paying more attention to what was happening in the rear view than what was happening up ahead.

Classic rules that we all brake everyday i guess you were just unlucky mate.
Sorry to hear about your misfortune.

Cheers.

[2wheeldrifter]

Just to clear that up I was doing 90 to 100km before i started breaking not when I came off, I bled a good chunk of the speed away before I crashed. I'm am not saying that I was going the correct speed when approaching that intersection as the result of my actions speak for them selves


Ok my mistake dude...:Oops:

[MarkH]

practice your emergency brake!

I'll add my vote to this action as well. I you had been able to brake more effectively you may have been able to stop in time. Paying attention and starting your braking earlier is also a pretty good idea.

[Roki_nz]

Hi Guys

A big thank you to everyone for your good advice and feedback. It has given me plenty to think about while i wait to get back on two wheels.

Thanks :)