Hypothetical situation

[The Stranger]

So, let's just say. You are doing dumb shit on your bike, perhaps in say a small group of mates and one of these mates gets snapped for your dumb shit and is faced with loosing their license.

Purely hypothetical of course.

What should you do?
Come forward, be the man and take the punishment.
Screw it. it's not your problem if your mate looses his license.

Is there another option perhaps?

[hayd3n]

do the crime do the time

[jaymzw]

do the crime do the time

I don't like hypothetical situations

and i'm not good at making decisions

but i do like voting in poles so i picked 'other'

[cerberus]

You can hardly call yourself a mate if you're letting him take the fall for your actions. Hypothetically of course.

[Renegade]

or you could go to court and prove that they got the wrong guy

[MaxB]

Hypothetically - man up and don't be a pussy.

I guess if the Cops got the wrong guy you could get him off by fessing up. There might be a way of processing you not being worth the paperwork. It kind of depends on what the charges are. 11ks over is a lot different from dangerous driving.

[howdamnhard]

do the crime do the time

What he said. One should be responsible for one's actions.

[yod]

if you don't 'fess up, he won't be a mate for much longer.....only a complete tosser would leave a mate in the lurch under those circumstances

[Katman]

Is there another option perhaps?



I'd choose my mates better.

:whistle:

[LBD]

do the crime do the time


You can hardly call yourself a mate if you're letting him take the fall for your actions.


man up and don't be a pussy.


One should be responsible for one's actions.


only a complete tosser would leave a mate in the lurch under those circumstances

Wot they say plus...what kind of guy needs to ask such a hypothetical question?

[Whynot]

I don't like hypothetical situations

and i'm not good at making decisions

but i do like voting in poles so i picked 'other'

ditto ... :)

[SixPackBack]

Find a good lawyer and help your 'mate' get out of the charge. If that is not possible then you are going to have to do the right thing.

Four observations I would make tho'

Not enough facts to make much more than an emotive 'look after your mates'
If the Police pinged the wrong person there must be a way of introducing significant doubt into the case.
Wriggling out of the charge does not mean a significant lesson has not been learnt. Cost and sleepless nights over the issue are in my experience worse than court assigned consequences.
Have a frank and honest conversation with your mate, discuss the options.

[The Stranger]

Wot they say plus...what kind of guy needs to ask such a hypothetical question?

The kind of guy who would rather not condemn numb nuts without having considered all options. What kind of guy wouldn't understand that?

[The Stranger]

ditto ... :)

Yeah, the other option was there kind of as an invite to suggest an option I hadn't considered, so feel free to share it with us please.

[CookMySock]

or you could go to court and prove that they got the wrong guyYup. Said mate should immediately deny it, and then go fight it in court, if it came to that, like any person should. Perhaps you might chip in for costs.

Steve

[MSTRS]

All could put their hand up and say "It was me wot dunnit, occifer". The cop knows it was only one of you who transgressed, he can't isolate which one it was, and can't charge all with the same crime.

Alternatively, the plan is to take it to court, where all the mates state the above.

Or is that being naive?

[Headbanger]

Shameful and weak.

And I hope I never get to ride alongside you weak fucks who are suggesting the person hide, to see if his mate can get off.

The person who is wrongly accused needs to tell his mate too step forward and stop being a girly-man, and if he refuses then give him a couple black eyes.

[Conquiztador]

Shameful and weak.

And I hope I never get to ride alongside you weak fucks who are suggesting the person hide, to see if his mate can get off.

The person who is wrongly accused needs to tell his mate too step forward and stop being a girly-man, and if he refuses then give him a couple black eyes.

Agree.

The day I have to be told to step forward if I fucked up, that is the day I need to be put down.

But the answers on here clearly indicates why I am becoming more and more of a recluse.

[ManDownUnder]

Unless there were life and death consequences for me I'd take the medicine. If (and I can't imagine how but... lets play the hypothetical) there were incredibly extreme consequences of me taking my medicine I'd make damned sure my mate was more than compensated for their inconweenience (and as so eloquently stated by sixpack - it would be done after a lot of discussion with said mate... there's no way in hell it'd simply be out of the blue "ha ha you're stuck with it" - most of us get over that approach by the age of 6)

I gotta stress though - I can't imagine the latter. I thought "allowing" someone to take the wrap for you also ads an additional charge of... perverting the course of justice (I think)?

[Badjelly]

A very wise woman (known to some as Mrs Jelly) once said,

Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

[Headbanger]

Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

I'd rather be the eagle.

[smoky]

Not enough facts to make much more than an emotive 'look after your mates'

What he said

[ManDownUnder]

What he said

Let me ad one more fact then - The Stranger doesn't post shit on a whim

[imdying]

I'd wager that all were probably involved in doing thae said dumb shite at some stage, so the punishment is probably deserved in any case. There's nothing wrong with taking a fall for a mate either, situations reveresed, they'd do it for you... if not, follow Katman's advice.

Besides, they have to have proof to convict, dude taking the fall can always plead non guilty.

[imdying]

And I hope I never get to ride alongside you weak fucks who are suggesting the person hide, to see if his mate can get off.

The person who is wrongly accused needs to tell his mate too step forward and stop being a girly-man, and if he refuses then give him a couple black eyes.Mmmm, perhaps, but a mere traffic offence... I'd (perhaps not happily) lose my license for my best mates, I know they'd do the same for me. I'm sure as hell not dobbing them in, and I don't expect them to dob themselves in either... we've done 'crime' together, sometimes we get caught. That's life.

[smoky]

Let me ad one more fact then - The Stranger doesn't post shit on a whim

What's your point? or did you just post that on a whim?

I was agreeing with SixpackBack - unless we know what they got 'snapped for' it's hard to make a call on the question asked

If I had run some poor bugger over at a pedestrian crossing, and my mate was getting the blame - yes I would fess up

If I were doing stunts of some sort, then the plod came along and busted my mate (who wasn't doing stunts) I wouldn't fess up, but I would encourage him to go to court and challenge the police to prove it was him

If i was ripping along too fast and a my mate wasn't, the cop comes the other way, swings around a pings him for my speed - tough, I'm not putting my hand up (but I might offer to help pay the fine if they get a bit pissy with me)

[CookMySock]

Shameful and weak. [...] The person who is wrongly accused needs to tell his mate too step forward and stop being a girly-manNo, the person who is wrongly accused needs to stop being weak, and stand up to the fuzz and tell them prove it or fuck off.

Steve

[imdying]

If I had run some poor bugger over at a pedestrian crossing, and my mate was getting the blame - yes I would fess upI'll admit that I assume it was a burn out or similar, not this particular level of traffic offence.

[smoky]

I'll admit that I assume it was a burn out or similar, not this particular level of traffic offence.

Did the plod see them do it - no
Any physical evidence that they did it - no (cause they didn't)

So it was presumption by the police - contest it
No need for anyone to take the rap for it ?
If your mate can't be bothered fighting for his own rights - that's his tough shyt

[FROSTY]

Sorry mate I can't answer your hypothetical question with the information given.
My not thinking about it gut reaction to what I read was--Hey do the crime do the time so fess up that it was you to the cops.

[been_there]

Hypotheatically
You'd be a fuckwit if left your mate high and dry...
think about it...How would feel if u where charged for his stupidy?

just my 10 cents

[forkoil]

Who was your (ex) mate Stranger?

[buellbabe]

I can't think of a situation where I would ever ask someone to take the fall for me.
I sincerely believe that its something I would never do... strangely tho I think given exceptional circumstances I would be prepared to take the fall for someone else...

A while back a group of friends arrived at Mangawai to meet up with myself and another mate...anyways they had a cop tailing them who was threatening to do all of them for speeding unless the ride leader owned up.

Well it just so happened that the ride leader was pretty maxxed on demerits so his mate with the least amount of demerits stepped forward and said "it was me". They have known each other for a couple of decades and I guess its an unspoken understanding between them that they always 'have each others back'. (Of course the ride leader paid the fine ...)

[Headbanger]

No, the person who is wrongly accused needs to stop being weak, and stand up to the fuzz and tell them prove it or fuck off.

Steve

So, Your stance is if someone else is in the shit for your actions they need to man up and fight it out to their own detriment?

God damn I hope you try that and whatever poor soul has the misfortune of suffering from your shameful actions knocks you the fuck over.

[FROSTY]

Ya know the responses to this pole really show the character of the respondents which I find frightening in some cases.

[ManDownUnder]

What's your point? or did you just post that on a whim?

My point is Noel's tends to teach people stuff - not only how to ride. The very fact he posed the question in here indicates someone has something to learn.

Whether they have the balls to or not - that'd be over to them


If your mate can't be bothered fighting for his own rights - that's his tough shyt

What if fighting for those rights costs money vis a vis a lawyer? Is it still his tough shit? Ay what point does the real lawbreaker step forward?

[smoky]

What if fighting for those rights costs money vis a vis a lawyer? Is it still his tough shit?

It depends on the gravity of the situation surely!
Traffic offenses can generally be defended with out any cost if it's just a minor infraction - I've done it successfully on occasions (lost on occasion as well)

Ay what point does the real lawbreaker step forward?

If we're going to be pious and spout about 'law breakers' coming clean; why not suggest everyone who has exceeded the speed limit 'man up' and turn themselves in! It'll Never happen.


My point is Noel's tends to teach people stuff - not only how to ride. The very fact he posed the question in here indicates someone has something to learn.


Hypothetical situation
?

So 'Hypothetical' is in fact a reality? So back to what I originally posted


I was agreeing with SixpackBack - unless we know what they got 'snapped for' it's hard to make a call on the question asked

[Mikkel]

Well, if it's just the usual summary justice bullshit that passes for "right of due process" in these parts, I'd assume that there's not much to do to get your mate out of the shit besides standing up and taking the blame. So of course, that is what you do - unless your mate wants it otherwise.

That said, if it is a criminal offense they have to prove that you are guilty - not the other way around. If two or more people know that the accussed is innocent, then that ought to be fairly difficult for the prosecuter.

The law is there to protect the people, not to extract money from them or handing out ridiculous punishments.

[MSTRS]

So 'Hypothetical' is in fact a reality? So back to what I originally posted

Sometimes it is a case of "This friend of mine has a nasty rash that itches..."

[FROSTY]

Sometimes it is a case of "This friend of mine has a nasty rash that itches..."
Sometimes its also a case of --OYY you !!! yes YOU!!! read this and do the right thing --without naming names
Giving the "offender" the opertunity to sort matters out for themselves

[The Stranger]

I'll admit that I assume it was a burn out or similar, not this particular level of traffic offence.

Ah yeah, stupid shit, say burn outs, wheelies and/or stoppies at an inappropriate place - say. NOT killing someone.
Now, don't get me wrong, I wouldn't consider those thing in and of themselves stupid, but time and place.

[MSTRS]

Sometimes its also a case of --OYY you !!! yes YOU!!! read this and do the right thing --without naming names
Giving the "offender" the opertunity to sort matters out for themselves

But what I meant was that sometimes it is the first person's problem, and they want the info without letting on it's them...
Not likely in Noel's case tho

[FROSTY]

But what I meant was that sometimes it is the first person's problem, and they want the info without letting on it's them...
Not likely in Noel's case tho
Sok mate I got ya point :whistle: I was just offering another um senario

[ManDownUnder]

...but time and place.

... and consequence so it seems.

[ManDownUnder]

If we're going to be pious and spout about 'law breakers' coming clean; why not suggest everyone who has exceeded the speed limit 'man up' and turn themselves in!

Because I wasn't talking about someone breaking the law, I was talking about allowing another person to take the wrap for them breaking the law.

Put the comment back in context and have another crack.

[lankyman]

Yea not really enough info here to make a call. Everyone is saying "be a good mate, man up, and fess up to it", but if you were riding in a small group and one of you gets pulled over for speeding, he can't expect the rest of the dudes in the group to help him pay his ticket. If it's this sort of situation it's a case of "sad one buddy, you were the one that got pulled over"

[MSTRS]

Yea not really enough info here to make a call. Everyone is saying "be a good mate, man up, and fess up to it", but if you were riding in a small group and one of you gets pulled over for speeding, he can't expect the rest of the dudes in the group to help him pay his ticket. If it's this sort of situation it's a case of "sad one buddy, you were the one that got pulled over"

In that situation, yes you are right. One takes the rap for all. But in this hypothetical case, one of the group was doing wheelies (maybe) and someone else was pulled for it. Not the same scenario at all.

[Kittyhawk]

When we are issued a licence we are ment to be responsible for the vehicle or bike we are in control of. If in a group situation and the cop nails the incorrect biker then he/she does have the right to plead not guilty. Why dosen't the person who is getting processed through the cop shop dob in the real offender?

If the innocent person who is getting done already have a criminal record of some sorts then whats another thing to add to the list. But if its a first time crime, then it could be different, it impacts on job applications etc. Think of the future.

Why would someone do such a thing and watch their mate go through this. Obviously cant be a real friend if he cant come forward.

Grow up and own up! :angry2:

[smoky]

Because I wasn't talking about someone breaking the law, I was talking about allowing another person to take the wrap for them breaking the law.

We all break the law from time to time (debatable in some peoples mind), and get away with it.
but if the police make a mistake, it's the police who made the mistake, they can't just go around accusing people of shyt and charging/fining you willy nilly without evidence
The fight is with the police, not ya mate
If it was me being charged with something my mate did - I wouldn't have a go at them - I'd have a go at the police for getting it wrong

But its hard to discuss without all the details - which nobody seems willing to expose

[vgcspares]

Find a good lawyer and help your 'mate' get out of the charge. If that is not possible then you are going to have to do the right thing.

Four observations I would make tho'

Not enough facts to make much more than an emotive 'look after your mates'
If the Police pinged the wrong person there must be a way of introducing significant doubt into the case.
Wriggling out of the charge does not mean a significant lesson has not been learnt. Cost and sleepless nights over the issue are in my experience worse than court assigned consequences.
Have a frank and honest conversation with your mate, discuss the options.

wot he said - bang on the nail

[The Stranger]

But its hard to discuss without all the details - which nobody seems willing to expose

Well of course no one can expose them - after all it is hypothetical isn't it.

That said, personally I think the discussion is very interesting.
There are only so many pemutations on this and most (yourself included) seem to have a good handle on those possibilities.

[Headbanger]

Why dosen't the person who is getting processed through the cop shop dob in the real offender?


Its the code.

Putting your mate into the cops is a shit thing to do, Even if they are the sort of piss weak wank who would let you take the blame for their crap.

It all depends on how big the stakes are.

[smoky]

It all depends on how big the stakes are.

I find anything over a one kilo stake is a struggle in one sitting

[Headbanger]

Its the wooden stakes I have trouble with, Give me heartburn.

[MSTRS]

There's your problem, right there. You're removing the stake too soon...

[Burtha]

Did someone say steak?
:drool:

[PrincessBandit]

If said mate was NOT doing dumb shit and happened to be snapped as an "innocent tag-on" to the others (including you) doing the dumb shit then that is very unfair and you should man up about it. However, if said mate was in on the dumb shit and giving it heaps and happened to be the unlucky one caught then he can hardly complain if he gets sprung in the middle of all this hypothetical shit. But that's just me, I never hang out with people who do these naughty things so I probably don't have much sympathy.

Bottom line - taking the fall for someone else when you were innocent = bad mates; taking the punishment for something you were doing = tuff titties.

[AD345]

Jeez

This is no brainer stuff


You put the cop straight RIGHT AT THE TIME.

The situation doesn't arise.

I'm just amazed that anyone could consider letting a mate take the fall for them

There's nothing to think about or weigh up or consider or reflect on.........

you don't drop mates in the shit

ever

[FROSTY]

Actually AD you have a really REALLY good point. The person who got caught in all honesty should quite rightly have said at the time NO I DID NOT do a donut. -In that case the evidence is pretty clear all you need to do is touch the rear tyre.
Not shifting my opinion here but the actual accused could deny all charges--and quite rightly

[lankyman]

In that situation, yes you are right. One takes the rap for all. But in this hypothetical case, one of the group was doing wheelies (maybe) and someone else was pulled for it. Not the same scenario at all.

Yea, in that case you should let it got to court, and unless he (the cop)can prove which one of you it was there is fuck all he can do

[lankyman]

In that situation, yes you are right. One takes the rap for all. But in this hypothetical case, one of the group was doing wheelies (maybe) and someone else was pulled for it. Not the same scenario at all.

Yea, in that case you should let it got to court, and unless he (the cop)can prove which one of you it was there is fuck all he can do

[The Stranger]

Yea, in that case you should let it got to court, and unless he (the cop)can prove which one of you it was there is fuck all he can do

Sorry, which country do you live in?
In NZ the cop will be believed and you will effectively need to prove your innocence.

[Laxi]

A very wise woman (known to some as Mrs Jelly) once said,

Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

nah! weasels get poisened, skined and paraded around just so their mates dont get any ideas;)

[AD345]

Actually AD you have a really REALLY good point. The person who got caught in all honesty should quite rightly have said at the time NO I DID NOT do a donut. -In that case the evidence is pretty clear all you need to do is touch the rear tyre.
Not shifting my opinion here but the actual accused could deny all charges--and quite rightly


yeah that too

[hospitalfood]

let him take the fall
shag his misses
steal his bike

just don't drink his last beer afterwards.

[beyond]

Hey mate, I'm with Sixpackback here. Some good wise words there and some common sense.

The cop got the wrong bloke so there should be some element of doubt here.
Dunno about you but I like to sleep at night as well. :)

[240]

So, let's just say. You are doing dumb shit on your bike, perhaps in say a small group of mates and one of these mates gets snapped for your dumb shit and is faced with loosing their license.

Purely hypothetical of course.

What should you do?
Come forward, be the man and take the punishment.
Screw it. it's not your problem if your mate looses his license.

Is there another option perhaps?

Why ask this ?? what the hell is wrong with you?

[The Stranger]

Why ask this ?? what the hell is wrong with you?

How interesting.
Your post is precisesly the reason I asked. Rather than jump to conclusions and make assumptions - as it would appear that you have. I would rather take a reasoned approach.
Did you read the thread? If not I suggest you do so as the answers are in there in plain easy to understand english.

[Moki]

Dude, you try to be the man and YOU and yer mate will get done. You for maybe doing somefing a little stoopid and yer mate for being stoopid enough to be in the vicinity of mucho stoopidness.

Leave it and buy yer mate a brew....eternally.

[Kittyhawk]

Its the code.

Putting your mate into the cops is a shit thing to do, Even if they are the sort of piss weak wank who would let you take the blame for their crap.

It all depends on how big the stakes are.

Yeah, youre right it does depend. ;)

- So whose the real biker here...the one in hiding or the one taking the blame for their mate?

- Name and shame?

- How long have they been friends? are they best mates?

- But why would a group be doing burnouts in a place where the cops would catch them! There is a number of places where you can go stunting without getting snapped......:pinch:

[Kflasher]

So, let's just say. You are doing dumb shit on your bike, perhaps in say a small group of mates and one of these mates gets snapped for your dumb shit and is faced with loosing their license.

Purely hypothetical of course.

What should you do?
Come forward, be the man and take the punishment.
Screw it. it's not your problem if your mate looses his license.

Is there another option perhaps?

Why no view who votes???

Man-up in my view, some fuck-wit cost me my licence a few years back, I would like to 'speak' to said fuck-wit personally.

[The Stranger]

Why no view who votes???


People may tend to vote for what they feel is expected of them rather than how they may actually feel if their decision is subject to review by others.
It's called peer pressure.

Not that I think KB polls are particularly accurate anyway, but I do think that when we see such a strong result as we are seeing here it is a reasonable indication of the feeling out there.

[FROSTY]

There is another wee point I'd like to raise.
I think the answer may vary according to the severity of the charge.
If for example its "just " a sustained loss of traction charge with no points, just a fine Id suggest the two guys sort it out between themselves. The Good mate would pay the fine for the guy that got caught.
If its the oposite extreme being say dangerous driving then theres no question the person responsible should man up and admit to the offence.

[dpex]

I'd choose my mates better.

:whistle:

This suggests you have one which has fewer than four legs.

[dpex]

People may tend to vote for what they feel is expected of them rather than how they may actually feel if their decision is subject to review by others.
It's called peer pressure.

Not that I think KB polls are particularly accurate anyway, but I do think that when we see such a strong result as we are seeing here it is a reasonable indication of the feeling out there.

Bullshit! Recently, 57% of riders showed they realised that riding their bikes, sitting facing backwards, while texting, was the most dangerous of the options.

That clearly shows these polls are incredibly accurate.

[Mom]

In the hypothetical situation that has been raised, and assuming that nobody was killed/maimed/injured etc I think if it has reached the stage where someone is having to spend money actively defending a charge that will cost them money, and loss of license time (affecting insurances etc), the person that actually did the crime should front up.

Absolutely and completely front up and own the charge.

Good luck to your hypothetical friend oh strange one ;)

[Kiwi Graham]

Voted man. Why because I think The guilt of letting a mate take the rap for my wrong doings would make for sleepless nights and a risk of ruining a frienship. However if it were a simple no consiquence type thing and your mate was happy to go with it then sweet!

[Mrs Busa Pete]

:rofl::killingme:laugh::love::grouphug:

[smoky]

in that case you should let it got to court, and unless he (the cop)can prove which one of you it was there is fuck all he can do

Sorry, which country do you live in?
In NZ the cop will be believed and you will effectively need to prove your innocence.

Thats my experience - More and more people are realising our justice system is far to biased to police testimony, and police are way to ready to miss represent things, twist the truth and down right lie - while being totally supported and backed up by media and the public who generally swallow what ever their feed, and prejudge based on nothing more than a media whim and the fact the police were involved 'where there's smoke there's fire' mentality

NZ justice system is becoming more and more a joke - and road infringements/charges are the worst example of it

It's no wonder you end up with police being shot over a simple drug raid - doesn't matter if he was innocent or not, he knew he was stuffed the moment police turned up at his house
No justice! I'll go out in a blaze of thunder instead


Sorry rant over......... as you were

[justsomeguy]

On a ride up north arranged by DMNTD, Erik and I were trudging along SH1.

Passed a Camera Van and thought we were clear for a bit so opened it up. Around the next corner was a squad car waiting for us.

Officer: I can give either both of you tickets or one of you - cos you both were speeding.

I didn't have enough points on my license left and I was in front.

Erik took the ticket - I paid it.

Karma catches up though - cos 2 hours later I got another ticket..:pinch:

[crash harry]

Couldn't leave someone else to take the rap for my shit.

[MarkH]

Most of the time most people will do the right thing. But if the penalty includes demerit points and your mate has 0 while you have 95 - would you automatically confess your guilt to the police to get your innocent mate off? You could talk to your mate and if he is willing to take the demerit point hit then you could pay him the cost of the fine. Or better yet you could suggest that he writes in and explains that it wasn't him - if they let him off then all is good, if they say "no dice, pay up" then you give him the cost of the fine.

But just a shrug and a "tough shit" would not go down well and is not the sort of thing you would expect from a mate.

[DEATH_INC.]

What about this (hypothetically) , not really mates, but both kber's, dangerous driving charges, loss of licence/risk of job loss etc, lawyers fees ( $$$$$$), days off work etc etc....
in the laws eyes you are guilty until proven innocent....

[Two Smoker]

in the laws eyes you are guilty until proven innocent....

This is bullshit, and has happened to me before too...

[Patch]

prove your innocence.
even then you are fucked sideways

[MSTRS]

PING - $...Ping - $

How's that attention span coming along?

[Chrislost]

No, the person who is wrongly accused needs to stop being weak, and stand up to the fuzz and tell them prove it or fuck off.

Steve

If they pinged the wrong guy then all their proof will be up shits creek. Assuming that they dont make up "facts" anymore...


I'll admit that I assume it was a burn out or similar, not this particular level of traffic offence.

Careful, burnouts are wayyy more seroius than running some tool that cant look two ways down.

[smoky]

.... Assuming that they dont make up "facts" anymore.
Ha - I was hoping so in a recent court case; but lies came easily to the Police officer who said what he had to to win rather than tell the truth, very disappointed in our Police, including a senior prosecutions officer who said he'd waited a long time to nail 'that prick' (being me)

[Maha]

Hypothetically, if a third party knows who the hypothetical person/s are in this hypothetical situation, would it be fair name them or wait till the Judge has slammed his little hammer then name them?

Or, in the words of the Beatles....Let it Be.?
Maybe Doris Day said it better...Que Sera Sera?

Either way, if this situation ever found its way into my space? by jingos!!!

[smoky]

Hypothetically, if a third party knows who the hypothetical person/s are in this hypothetical situation, would it be fair name them or wait till the Judge has slammed his little hammer

Well hypothetically speaking; since it's a hypothetical situation, and you're asking a hypothetical question to a hypothetical supposition - then hypothetically - no it wont matter because it will all be hypothetical won't it?
Thinking purely hypothetically, of course - your comments would be a hypothetical scenario - if I'm hypothetically correct

[Maha]

Well hypothetically speaking; since it's a hypothetical situation, and you're asking a hypothetical question to a hypothetical supposition - then hypothetically - no it wont matter because it will all be hypothetical won't it?
Thinking purely hypothetically, of course - your comments would be a hypothetical scenario - if I'm hypothetically correct

They are indeed Hypothetical, wouldn't want to incriminate myself or any else for the matter, if indeed there were a matter to be incriminated against?

[The Stranger]

Hypothetically, if a third party knows who the hypothetical person/s are in this hypothetical situation, would it be fair name them or wait till the Judge has slammed his little hammer then name them?



I don't think naming people is quite the right thing to do here Maha.
I only have one side, that said, I have always held this person in very high regard - BUT I wasn't there and don't know the full story.

No one likes a rat right, so ratting someone out is not good form.
But if I know who we are talking about who else may know or guess?
Hopefully this will encourage our friend to consider his position closely before rumours spread far and wide.

Interestingly, it wasn't at all difficult for some to guess the perp - of course they knew him, that makes it easier. So in the interests of self respect he may want to consider his reputation as obviously it preceeds him.

There is another reason I wouldn't like to name and shame either. There is as I see it a critical point (I would argue the most critical) that has not been raised in this thread. But as it has not been raised I wont address it.

[Patch]

No one likes a rat right, so ratting someone out is not good form.
depends how much pride one has - better to do it face to face


Everything comes out in the wash . . . eventually.

[FROSTY]

I've been putting a bit of thought into this situation Stranger.
I think there is a point where at the very least the actual guilty party should stand up and apologise to the person taking the wrap for him.
The thing is this motorcycle world is a VERY small one and I believe KARMA really does rear its head. What goes around comes around and I must say it can bite you in really unexpected ways and from really unexpected directions.
If I was the hypothetical guilty rider I'd be concidering this prety seriously.

[more_fasterer]

I don't think naming people is quite the right thing to do here Maha.
I only have one side, that said, I have always held this person in very high regard - BUT I wasn't there and don't know the full story.

No one likes a rat right, so ratting someone out is not good form.
But if I know who we are talking about who else may know or guess?
Hopefully this will encourage our friend to consider his position closely before rumours spread far and wide.

Interestingly, it wasn't at all difficult for some to guess the perp - of course they knew him, that makes it easier. So in the interests of self respect he may want to consider his reputation as obviously it preceeds him.

There is another reason I wouldn't like to name and shame either. There is as I see it a critical point (I would argue the most critical) that has not been raised in this thread. But as it has not been raised I wont address it.

You mean it's NOT a hypothetical situation??? :gob:

[R6_kid]

Is the guilty party involved aware this thread is about him? Not like him to admit his mistakes without peer pressure from what I know. :Pokey:

[SixPackBack]

Is the guilty party involved aware this thread is about him? Not like him to admit his mistakes without peer pressure from what I know.

Grab your popcorn I'm gunna tell the coont:niceone:

[FROSTY]

One other thought might be that in a hypothetical situation like this the person actually guilty might offer to stand up as a witness for the accused rider. If matters were of a serious nature.
No matter what happened the character of the hypothetical guilty party would be shown.

[Madness]

Another thing worth considering also, in this hypothetical situation.

As I understand it, for traffic offences, charges must be files in court within six months of the offence. This being the case, should the case be heard after six months from the date of the alleged offence, the perp could potentially give evidence without fear of prosecution. Win, Win, Lose.

This thread needs more tags.

[Farab]

He should not let his mate take the fall for him.

Just considering a different angle: How many were witness to the wrongly accused not doing anything wrong? Would it be possible for a list of witnesses to testify that the cops have the wrong person and leave it up to the cops to prove who did what hypothetically?

[R6_kid]

One other thought might be that in a hypothetical situation like this the person actually guilty might offer to stand up as a witness for the accused rider. If matters were of a serious nature.
No matter what happened the character of the hypothetical guilty party would be shown.


Another thing worth considering also, in this hypothetical situation.

As I understand it, for traffic offences, charges must be files in court within six months of the offence. This being the case, should the case be heard after six months from the date of the alleged offence, the perp could potentially give evidence without fear of prosecution. Win, Win, Lose.



He should not let his mate take the fall for him.

Just considering a different angle: How many were witness to the wrongly accused not doing anything wrong? Would it be possible for a list of witnesses to testify that the cops have the wrong person and leave it up to the cops to prove who did what hypothetically?

Sounds like the way to go??? Maybe then they could be friends at the end of it...

Of course that may require that the 'perp' supplies the innocent party with some hard liquor in order to help lay away the stress this situation has no doubt caused him (or her).

[R6_kid]

Grab your popcorn I'm gunna tell the coont:niceone:

Isn't he living in Aussie? I'm sure I could take him in a bitch-slap contest.

[SixPackBack]

Isn't he living in Aussie? I'm sure I could take him in a bitch-slap contest.

$10 on R6_kid:eek:

[Mom]

I am assuming, hypothetically here of course (and we all know what that can become, assuming that is) that the rider/s that may or may not have hypothetically done something that others have been blamed for (and charged with actually) dont actually have the gonads (hypothetically) to come forward and own what happened. Then again they may not have seen this thread I guess.

EDIT: or are not members, or something

[SixPackBack]

*Star witness refuses to appear*

[FROSTY]

Mom one would assume that The Stranger being the upstanding sittersen that we thunk he is wouldn't start a hypothetical thread without good cause.
I would hazard a guess as mentioned before that either
A) he himself is working through something he's done wrong perhaps not even associated with bikes.
or
B) He believes if the Hypothetical culprit is indeed a living breathing KB'er that said KBer would grow some balls and contact the wrongly accused to see what could be sorted out.
Just a guess mind you

[Mom]

Mom one would assume that The Stranger being the upstanding sittersen that we thunk he is wouldn't start a hypothetical thread without good cause.

Hypothetically you are correct :yes:

EDIT: forgot the options, I am guessing ummm B?

[FROSTY]

Could I ask the general KB population.If hypothetical ever turned out to be real. Would you want to be riding anywhere or anytime with the person who hasn't stepped forward?
I for one certainly wouldn't for fear of the self same thing happening to me.

[ManDownUnder]

Could I ask the general KB population.If hypothetical ever turned out to be real. Would you want to be riding anywhere or anytime with the person who hasn't stepped forward?

Assuming the situation's as simple as it was presented... Nope...

It'd be like standing at the bottom of a rarely used long drop. No idea when you're going to get shat on from a great height...

[Draco]

Perhaps i'm a little old fashioned, but I was raised with a strong moral foundation of accountability, loyalty, honesty, integrity and a few other such like big words. In my opinion one should take full responsibility for one's actions at all times, regardless of the severity of the action or the consequences. There is no moral or ethical dilemma when everyone takes responsibility for themselves and their actions. Too simplistic or idealistic you ask? Maybe, but I sleep well at night when I live by this mantra, I never have to watch over my shoulder.

Put in simple terms this little prick needs to man up, fess up, and take responsibility for his actions!

[FROSTY]

Draco but that would suggest that the Hypothetical" is indeed real.
Blow me down with a feather duster.
Dare I suggest though good lady that if the gutless wonder hasn't stepped up now he likely doesn't intend to.
But Me being an old guy I've seen Karma in action way too many times. It has a definite tendancy to bite and bite hard.

[boomer]

Yeah the gutless wonder aint here.. I know 3 KB people now of the same ilk.

[Max Preload]

You mean a cop got it wrong and pinged the wrong person?

OMFG! My entire belief system has just come crashing down around my ears! Not...

[FROSTY]

You mean a cop got it wrong and pinged the wrong person?

OMFG! My entire belief system has just come crashing down around my ears! Not...
NO max on that front shit as they say sometimes happens.
But tell me would you want to ride with a person who chooses to ride like an idiot? Logic says its only a matter of time before someone else ends up in the same situation riding with them.

[Mom]

Hypothetically speaking, I am picking the riders concerned would be surprised to find out how far their um, reputation is travelling.

[Max Preload]

NO max on that front shit as they say sometimes happens.
But tell me would you want to ride with a person who chooses to ride like an idiot? Logic says its only a matter of time before someone else ends up in the same situation riding with them.

My point is that the cop is convinced it's the guy he got, when it actually isn't.

[Madness]

My point is that the cop is convinced it's the guy he got, when it actually isn't.

I'm not so sure cops do things because they're convinced they have the facts right any more. Maybe the cop is just happy that he got a charge, got the days quota.

Do the general circumstances fit?, if so charge 'em!.

Anyway, this thread isn't about the cops being arseholes (as I understand it) it's about a biker letting a fellow biker go down for something he knows damn well he did himself.

[SixPackBack]

*Sixpack*-the worst kept secret in KB land and we are all waiting for you to comment http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/sh...post1129243007 (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/sh...post1129243007)

*Suspect A*-Waiting for me to comment? Now y would u think this has anything to do with me puzzles me?

*Sixpack*-I'm not a cop. Man up marshmallow.

*Suspect A*-Man up to what? do u even know what was going on... there are things you don't know as u weren't there, and because there are others involved who have stayed away with good reason, I am following suite. What happens on the ride stays on the ride. Nuf said.

[The Stranger]

*Sixpack*-the worst kept secret in KB land and we are all waiting for you to comment http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/sh...post1129243007 (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/sh...post1129243007)

*Suspect A*-Waiting for me to comment? Now y would u think this has anything to do with me puzzles me?

*Sixpack*-I'm not a cop. Man up marshmallow.

*Suspect A*-Man up to what? do u even know what was going on... there are things you don't know as u weren't there, and because there are others involved who have stayed away with good reason, I am following suite. What happens on the ride stays on the ride. Nuf said.

Hey the KB court is in session, he's welcome to put his hypothetical defence, or he will be hung, found guilty and then tried (in that order) - in absentia.

[Madness]

-Man up to what? do u even know what was going on... there are things you don't know as u weren't there, and because there are others involved who have stayed away with good reason, I am following suite. What happens on the ride stays on the ride. Nuf said.
O.K but it's when what happens (hypothetically, if you prefer) on the ride ends up in court that matters, when the chips are down that counts, innit?

This should be good......

:corn:

[SixPackBack]

Hey the KB court is in session, he's welcome to put his hypothetical defence, or he will be hung, found guilty and then tried (in that order) - in absentia.

..................................In the finest KB fashion!

I made that shit up for a wind-up:eek:

[The Stranger]

..................................In the finest KB fashion!

I made that shit up for a wind-up:eek:

Damn, I was looking forward to a good old fashioned roasting.

[SixPackBack]

Damn, I was looking forward to a good old fashioned roasting.

Why let facts muddy the water. He's guilty lets hang the fucker [or visit our local plod with the evidence?]

[Morcs]

Posting up all this hypothetic shit is both childish and pointless.

The 2 individuals involved are both good guys, and neither are saints, and id bet on that the wrongly accused didnt keep both wheels on the ground for the entire day as well as staying below the speed limit.

However, If it were me that got off, Id be relieved. For the unwrongly accused, well, with insufficient evidence they should not be looking at any kind of punishment either.

Surely Its not like school with the cops, where the whole class has to stay behind until the guilty party fesses up - If the cops dont catch the right guy, then they shouldnt be catching anyone.

Im pretty sure ive been in the same situation. I sped past an unmarked car, the guy behind me overtook him too, and was right up my butt that the cop got his plate and not mine - I wasnt aware of it for some time, but still not certain.

[DMNTD]

...a good old fashioned roasting.

Please tell me that there will be some 'spit' involved... :niceone:

[FROSTY]

The 2 individuals involved are both good guys, and neither are saints, and id bet on that the wrongly accused didnt keep both wheels on the ground for the entire day as well as staying below the speed limit.
Ahh but would you at least contact the wrongly accused and say hey sorry bro if you knew damb well he was taking your heat?

[Madness]

You sure as feck wouldn't expect them to get in contact and say something like this (hypothetically)....

It was not my fault that you got what was coming to you and you are not going to see me owning up to something I did not do, not today not ever.

[Owl]

So, let's just say. You are doing dumb shit on your bike, perhaps in say a small group of mates and one of these mates gets snapped for your dumb shit and is faced with loosing their license.

Purely hypothetical of course.

What should you do?
Come forward, be the man and take the punishment.
Screw it. it's not your problem if your mate looses his license.

Is there another option perhaps?

Come forward is the only option!!!

I've being the victim in a similar situation, but I stuck by the perpetrator, knowing his failings.
I was a little less forgiving when he did the same thing 25 years later!:angry2:

Unfortunately there are people out there who can't fall on their own sword. Even worse are the ones that will, but not without lobbing a few grenades in the process.:2guns:

Rant over!:mellow:

[SixPackBack]

Posting up all this hypothetic shit is both childish and pointless.

The 2 individuals involved are both good guys, and neither are saints, and id bet on that the wrongly accused didnt keep both wheels on the ground for the entire day as well as staying below the speed limit.

However, If it were me that got off, Id be relieved. For the unwrongly accused, well, with insufficient evidence they should not be looking at any kind of punishment either.

Surely Its not like school with the cops, where the whole class has to stay behind until the guilty party fesses up - If the cops dont catch the right guy, then they shouldnt be catching anyone.

Im pretty sure ive been in the same situation. I sped past an unmarked car, the guy behind me overtook him too, and was right up my butt that the cop got his plate and not mine - I wasnt aware of it for some time, but still not certain.

Dude your licence has taken more hits than Elvis. Running and getting butt raped by the filth is questionable advice.

Arguments of police mistakes aside it looks likely that unless the guilty party comes forward the accused will at a minimum soak up mega lawyer dollars.

[The Stranger]

Posting up all this hypothetic shit is both childish and pointless.


I will say this Morcs. I sure found the story unpleasent and my initial reaction is that the perp should have come forward and at least assist the guy/s that got snapped.
I sought clarification of my opinion.
What I hadn't anticipated was the very strong backlash against the perp.
I don't see that it is childish or pointless to let the perp get a feel of the sentiment that is out there.
I actually think it serves a good purpose. To guide this guy and others as to what is considered acceptable by those we interact with.

[Morcs]

Ahh but would you at least contact the wrongly accused and say hey sorry bro if you knew damb well he was taking your heat?

I would, and in the time it happened to me, I did contact the guy. He was cool as he was in the wrong too - so spose the situation was slightly different.


Dude your licence has taken more hits than Elvis. Running and getting butt raped by the filth is questionable advice.

Arguments of police mistakes aside it looks likely that unless the guilty party comes forward the accused will at a minimum soak up mega lawyer dollars.

Its sad that that is the case - unless their is sufficient proof, and the accused sings not guilty all day long under oath, then there is nothing to convict. But maybe im living in fairy land as ive always been guilty as sin, and bent over and let cops aim for penetration.


I will say this Morcs. I sure found the story unpleasent and my initial reaction is that the perp should have come forward and at least assist the guy/s that got snapped.
I sought clarification of my opinion.
What I hadn't anticipated was the very strong backlash against the perp.
I don't see that it is childish or pointless to let the perp get a feel of the sentiment that is out there.
I actually think it serves a good purpose. To guide this guy and others as to what is considered acceptable by those we interact with.

Fair enough. But shouldnt be blaming the guy who got lucky and got off - we should all be blaming this stupid fucked up system of justice...

[boomer]

i got this and laughed so much.. If it were me, i'd deny the charge and point the rozzas in this boys direction.

I've been on rides with friends where a mate was gonna get charged for speeding cos i did a runner.. i fessed up and took the hit. If i got charged for someone, proclaiming not to be my mate and telling me TUFF, i'd be singing like dame Edna... cos i don't/can't abide gutless wankers.



I don't know De*th. He is not my mate. He was pulling stunts all day and we were all amazed at his skill. He was riding a rat as bike and the cops literally chose him from a line of us. He got what was comin to him as we all do. If u expect me to stand up and say pick me pick me for something I did not do then go get stuffed. There were others involved and they have been even more silent that I have been having only been alerted of this a day ago.

[Rodney007]

situation example:

3 ppl do bad things one day.

a cop busts 1,

that 1 should take it like a man, rather than cry for te others to own up and take some of the blame,
better one than 3, and thats unlucky

so basicaly take it,

[ManDownUnder]

situation example:

3 ppl do bad things one day.

a cop busts 1,

that 1 should take it like a man, rather than cry for te others to own up and take some of the blame,
better one than 3, and thats unlucky

so basicaly take it,

Alternate example, 2 people go riding, Person one does something dumb, Person 2 does not. Person 2 is snapped for Person 1's misdeeds and has to spend good $$$ to defend theirselves.

Does person 1 have any moral obligations in this situation at all?

[Maha]

situation example:

3 ppl do bad things one day.

a cop busts 1,

that 1 should take it like a man, rather than cry for te others to own up and take some of the blame,
better one than 3, and thats unlucky

so basicaly take it,

Rossi and Stoner FTW.

[Rodney007]

Alternate example, 2 people go riding, Person one does something dumb, Person 2 does not. Person 2 is snapped for Person 1's misdeeds and has to spend good $$$ to defend theirselves.

Does person 1 have any moral obligations in this situation at all?

from what i gather is that the person that got in trouble was in the wrong as well as others, but took the blame

not...

the person that got in trouble was completely innocent, and the person that did it didnt man up.

[MSTRS]

from what i gather is that the person that got in trouble was in the wrong as well as others, but took the blame

not...

the person that got in trouble was completely innocent, and the person that did it didnt man up.

That is exactly the scenario posited by TheStranger.

[ManDownUnder]

from what i gather is that the person that got in trouble was in the wrong as well as others, but took the blame

not...

the person that got in trouble was completely innocent, and the person that did it didnt man up.

Per the hypothetical example below that's not the case. Or has that hypothisis evolved in the face of the truth...?


So, let's just say. You are doing dumb shit on your bike, perhaps in say a small group of mates and one of these mates gets snapped for your dumb shit and is faced with loosing their license.

[boomer]

from what i gather is that the person that got in trouble was in the wrong as well as others, but took the blame

not...

the person that got in trouble was completely innocent, and the person that did it didnt man up.


looks like you got given a bum steer ( no pun intended honduh boy )

[The Stranger]

from what i gather is that the person that got in trouble was in the wrong as well as others, but took the blame

not...

the person that got in trouble was completely innocent, and the person that did it didnt man up.

Well as always there are 2 sides to any hypothetical situation and here you sum up the situation very nicely indeed.

So here is how it goes - in reality, not hypothetically.
These situations will ultimately come down to credibility. Perhaps they shouldn't, perhaps that is unfair in this case, however that IS the way it IS - like it or not, there is nothing you or I can do about that.

Who you going to believe?
Someone who has quite the reputation for routinely, habitually embelishing the truth or somone who has yet to be found wanting on the truth?

Now sure this don't mean he is guilty in this instance, who can say for sure, but one thing IS for SURE. No matter what people say out loud, they WILL make a judgement call in thier heads. Like it or not people judge and this WILL impact on one's life.

The consequences of ones action eh. Something to think about perhaps?

[Rodney007]

hmmn seems like this should be between the ppl involved

[nodrog]

http://www.sheriffratings.com/images/busimages/81064125/1857886_logo.jpg

[MarkH]

One thing that bothers me is that there is so much hatred here for someone that from what I understand was having fun on his bike. The person I am least impressed with is the police officer who has charged a guy that has done nothing wrong (at least in the hypothetical case presented to us). It seems to me that he is a bad cop (they exist, I have encountered them) and any criticism I have of that officer does not extend to the good cops (they exist, I have also encountered them).

Can we really be sure that it is the fault of the guy everyone here is hating on that the innocent guy (if indeed he is innocent) got charged, was he the only biker anywhere nearby that the cops may have mistaken innocent guy for? What if some other random dude was doing some silly shit and the bad cop came across the innocent dude on a similar bike and decided that he must be the culprit?

[FROSTY]

Hey folkssome of you are really are missing a point here I suspect.
Someone did something that in the right place and time in my opinion is actually pretty cool and to be encouraged.
A direct comparison I would suggest would be for an experienced sport shooter with a good personal reputation to head down to the shooting range and fire off a few hundred shots in the company of a young person who has a reputation for doing stupid stuff and for telling lies. Said companion then perhaps later that day whilst walking down a heavily populated footpath with the sports shooter decides to shoot off a few rounds.Noone gets hurt but the time and place was stupid The sports shooter is then accused of the shooting. At this point the companion could have at the least apologised, if not stepped forward.
To actually say "ohh he does it all the time" when refering to the sports shooter shows the metal of the companion
I am DELIBERATELY useing the senario of a weapon concidered deadly because a vehicle used the wrong way is equally or arguably more so a deadly weapon than a gun (sorryy rifle)

[Winston001]

Firstly there are lots of situations where the hypothetical scenario proposed by The Stranger do occur. The police and the Courts deal with it all the time.

As for evidence, ask yourself how a judge is supposed to believe a defence witness who suddenly springs into the witness box and says "It was me g'vnor wot done it, 'es an innocent man!". But that person has never spoken before that day to the police? If it was that easy, no-one would ever be convicted.

As for possible scenarios, being in a group (and one person does wheelies) where a member of the public dials *555 but gets the wrong rego. Cameras - speed, intersections, crossing double yellow lines, all sorts of situations. You are required by law to name the operator of the vehicle.

Or say, you swop bikes on a run, your mate max's your bike out at 252k while passing an unmarked car, swop back a bit further down the road :Police: You lose your licence on the spot and are looking at a possible prison sentence for dangerous driving.

If you don't name the actual rider on the spot you are going to have a hard time convincing a judge later on.

Anyway, all of that is academic. To have self respect, a person must accept responsibilities and consequences. You should never let someone else suffer for your mistake.

[ManDownUnder]

I wonder if the cops read KB... they might have gleaned a few insights ... but... naaaaaaaaaa they'd never do that would they?

(hi guys!!!!:wavey:)

[SixPackBack]

I wonder if the cops read KB... they might have gleaned a few insights ... but... naaaaaaaaaa they'd never do that would they?

(hi guys!!!!:wavey:)

I am sure they will be taking a keen interest in this thread. The potential exists that if the guilty party [in this case] is 'shopped' the police will place more confidence in a similar situation in charging 'someone' in the group.

In practical terms the guilty party should be coming forward, but in doing so is only playing in to the hands of the police and an officers incompetence.

[Rodney007]

I am sure they will be taking a keen interest in this thread. The potential exists that if the guilty party [in this case] is 'shopped' the police will place more confidence in a similar situation in charging 'someone' in the group.

In practical terms the guilty party should be coming forward, but in doing so is only playing in to the hands of the police and an officers incompetence.

dude they dont hawk this forum as much as you think or i would be in trouble,

plus its hypothetical....isnt it ?

[MSTRS]

plus its hypothetical....isnt it ?

'course it is...;)

[SixPackBack]

dude they dont hawk this forum as much as you think or i would be in trouble,

plus its hypothetical....isnt it ?

A lot of Police ride motorcycles Rodney, they also check out KB. Better behave!:whistle:

[Morcs]

Yes, bad mouth them enough on here, and they will move heaven and earth to roadblock you...

[Rodney007]

A lot of Police ride motorcycles Rodney, they also check out KB. Better behave!:whistle:

they can hawke out the rides and thats about it,

your not writing a signed statement therefore you have your rights to freespeech.

[Mikkel]

I wonder if the cops read KB... they might have gleaned a few insights ... but... naaaaaaaaaa they'd never do that would they?


I am sure they will be taking a keen interest in this thread.

Guys, no offense, but I think you are over-estimating our importance and underestimating the police a bit here.


A lot of Police ride motorcycles Rodney, they also check out KB. Better behave!:whistle:

Indeed, and the cops on here never posts any shit whatsoever eh? They're all surfing KB on company time looking for all the serious crime... I'm sure the prosecution in the Bain trial managed to pick a few gems up here as well.

[Patch]

interesting to read that the general assumption is, there is only one silent guilty perp - hypothetical or not

[HenryDorsetCase]

EVERYbody knows that Laniet did it: topped everybody then overcome with remorse, topped herself by shooting herself in the crown of the head. then a couple more times as well.

[The Stranger]

your not writing a signed statement therefore you have your rights to freespeech.

This thread aside. Information on a public forum can be used as evidence.
Some members of KB have already found this out the hard way - 3 that I am aware of.

[ManDownUnder]

Guys, no offense, but I think you are over-estimating our importance and underestimating the police a bit here.

Oh agreed - I doubt there's anything admissable in here but between the tags, less than subtle hints and general banter it's pretty obvious where the truth might eb found... so if a case is taken against the wrong person and fails for whatever reason... they might be able to pursue an alternate line of investigation and find an alternate offense and take that through to prosecution.

Who knows?

My point was actually acknowledging the cops on here (the ones that do not post that is...) and saying hi.

They'd be the ones that sometimes read the ATNR thread as an example...

[Rodney007]

meh,!!!!! how can they link you to your kiwibiker account? pics?

wow, and i just looked at the tags ....

[ManDownUnder]

meh,!!!!! how can they link you to your kiwibiker account? pics?

wow, and i just looked at the tags ....

Repeat after me "subpoena". And if not from KB then Trademe might have the contact details of "lrdbsi" requested... it's not hard to do mate.... It's all a matter of public record and that's just from google. I'm no conspiracy theorist... but I know there's links that can easily be made that bring down the bulletproof simply because they (or someone) opened their mouth in a public place...

Beside - why f**k the police? Those are the guys and gals keeping me safe thanks all the same. I personally have no problems with them which I guess puts me at odds with a few around here. I'm happy to take any medicine I deserve

[Winston001]

meh,!!!!! how can they link you to your kiwibiker account? pics?


Here is a little moral tale - 10,000 Trademe personal account details released to defendants in a criminal trial....

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/crime/news/article.cfm?c_id=30&objectid=10524998

So it can and does happen.

However that isn't the issue on KB normally. What happens is someone skites about a charge and tells us how they are going to get out of it. Or they tell us about doing a runner in a particular time and place, saying just enough to confirm who they are to the rozzers.

Its pure chance if a police officer comes across such posts and is the slightest bit interested, but Murphy's Law......it can happen.

[Zuki lover]

The answer would be - Grow up and not do dumb shit - ha ha ha

[The Stranger]

Its pure chance if a police officer comes across such posts and is the slightest bit interested, but Murphy's Law......it can happen.


There have been quite a few "chances" actually.
Personally, I am not a fan of leaving things to chance.

My point is.
Regardless of what interest the Police may or may not have in the site. I feel it would be prudent to NOT post up anything that may incriminate yourself.

[DEATH_INC.]

Mmmm, I've resisted posting this up long enough... if anyone's interested.
This is what the main witnesses account of things would look like in this hypothetical situation if taken from the police disclosure....

I was travelling south on s/h* and climbing the p******* hill. I was off duty but in an unmarked police patrol car. traffic was very heavy and travelling slowly probably about 10-20 kph on average.
As I passed through the end of the first southbound passing laneand just about to cross the viaduct i looked in the external rearview mirror I saw a motorcycle (rider 'A') coming from behind me up the wrong side of the road and on the wrong side of the no passing line. I was unsure of the registration.
I looked in the mirror again and saw a group of motorcycles approaching. The first of these (rider 'B') was performing a 'wheelstand' as the rider came up the hill on the wrong side of the no passing line. The wheelstand was sustained over a considerable distance, perhaps up to 100 meters.
As the motorcycle went past me still on the wrong side of the road I was able to get the registration number *****
I looked again and saw another motorcycle (rider 'C') approaching very quickly. this motorcycle performed a number of short distance wheelstands as it overtook traffic up the wrong side of the no passing lines. As the motorcycle went past me I saw the registration began with a * but could not make out the rest of the plate.
Another 3 motorcycles (riders 'd' 'e' and 'f') followed but I was unable to get thier registration no's.
I radioed ahead and passed the information I had to Highway patrol units. These hp units stopped these vehicles further down the road.
By the time I had travelled to P**** in the traffic stream the motorcycles had been stopped at C************ Drive.


Now, what may have happened is rider 'A' and rider 'F' were pulled up and issued with dangerous driving notices, for performing these wheelstands, and may now be going to court to defend the charges.
Rider 'B' is being very quiet (pretty sure they know about it...) and rider 'C' is denying everything.
Waddayathink?

[Winston001]

So. The issue is a group of bikes have passed vehicles on a double no-passing line (I think). That's an offence. I suspect many of us do it, safer than it looks.

What escalates things is the volume of traffic. Passing on double yellows becomes dangerous driving when heavy traffic is involved. And speed. Still, that is for a judge to decide.

The wheelies are prima facie evidence of dangerous driving particularly when combined with no passing lines.

As for the individuals involved, this isn't a case of swopping bikes and an innocent rider getting stopped later. Or two identical bikes.

The police have to prove the charge beyond a reasonable doubt. Individually. Against each rider charged. Being in a group behind other riders who offend doesn't sound like sufficent evidence for dangerous driving by a member of that group. Depends too on what was said/admitted at the stop. Many, indeed most get convicted out of what they say.

[Winston001]

Do any of the other riders 'fess up to save Riders A and F?

Well firstly the police may not believe the confession. Something to consider.

Riders B and C could give evidence in court, supported by D and E for that matter, to say A and F did not perform wheelies. B and C would have to state they were the offenders.

There is a rule of law that statements given in Court are privileged. They cannot be used against you. Frederick Forsyth wrote an excellent short story based on this -"Privilege". Therefore an incriminating statement from the witness box can't be brought up in another hearing.

Warning: its be many years since I looked at the laws of evidence and there may be subtle changes. This requires proper legal advice.

[Madness]

Speaking from my own experiences, I'd imagine that rider A would be quite happy to accept an infringement notice for passing on double yellows. They'd probably pay the fine and take the points like a man (or woman :niceone:), accepting that they did wrong. The problem here could perhaps be the mandatory 6 month disqualification period associated with a dangerous driving conviction and the money required to pay a lawyer to defend it, not to mention all the time off work for court appearances.

The overtaking offence by itself could have hypothetically been dealt with on the side of the road and there's no suggestion of excessive speed from the witness. The dangerous aspect here surely comes from the wheelstands performed as there is also no mention in the witnesses account of oncoming traffic or any collisions. Therefore, say if rider A hypothetically didn't perform any wheelstands that entire day, he's probably got good reason to be pissed off, hypothetically.

All of this is good and well. What do you think rider A might have thought later, when rider C might have been seen to be making remarks like "Deal with it like a man" and "It was not my fault that you got what was coming to you". I'd suspect that rider A might be starting to get really goddam hypothetically fucked off by now.

[Max Preload]

So. The issue is a group of bikes have passed vehicles on a double no-passing line (I think). That's an offence.

Just a minor point but no, it's not an offence. Crossing a yellow line on your side is however, regardless of whether you're passing or not. Provided you stay enitrely to the left of the yellow line on your side of the road you're fine. Although in this particular scenario they didn't do that.

Of course, if spotted by the po-po they may try on the catch-all careless/dangerous/reckless charge.

[DEATH_INC.]

The charges are not for crossing the yellow lines, they are for doing the wheelstands (Hypothetically)
You know what really gets ya going is rider 'a' and 'f' thought they'd do the right thing by NOT dropping 'b' and 'c' in it. Guess it pays not to help out your fellow bikers....

[FROSTY]

As I understand matters if rider C had the balls to contact riders A or E. I guess there wouldn't be so many other people hypothetically annoyed.
Could I ask others here
If the situation was EXACTLY as outlined by mr Death Inc would you wish to ride with rider C ?
Ohh and Hypothetical rider C== No thank you for the green bling. I'd suggest if you wish your side of the story told then man up and tell it. Don't "hint' Theres another side to the story.

[Mikkel]

Sounds like the police should be better at running courses teaching their staff to leave work at the workplace and relax once they are off-duty. Stressed out law-enforcers aren't going to do society a favour either way.

[Max Preload]

The charges are not for crossing the yellow lines, they are for doing the wheelstands (Hypothetically)
You know what really gets ya going is rider 'a' and 'f' thought they'd do the right thing by NOT dropping 'b' and 'c' in it. Guess it pays not to help out your fellow bikers....

But do riders 'b' and 'c' know that riders 'a' and 'f' weren't doing wheelstands? (I can't be fucked reading the whole thread, especially since it's only hypothetical). Maybe they just figured that they were lucky and didn't get seen... all hypothetically, of course... :killingme

[boomer]

i think Ducati hard and yamaha64life should fkin man up and tell teh rozzas the truth.

If it were me, i'd have no qualms grassing the 2 of 'em up after there hard ass comments/attitudes.

[DEATH_INC.]

But do riders 'b' and 'c' know that riders 'a' and 'f' weren't doing wheelstands? (I can't be fucked reading the whole thread, especially since it's only hypothetical). Maybe they just figured that they were lucky and didn't get seen... all hypothetically, of course... :killingme
Yes, and no, rider 'A' doesn't do 'em, rider 'f' chooses time and place a little more carefully....hypothetically.

[Winston001]

Speaking from my own experiences, I'd imagine that rider A would be quite happy to accept an infringement notice for passing on double yellows. They'd probably pay the fine and take the points like a man (or woman :niceone:), accepting that they did wrong. The problem here could perhaps be the mandatory 6 month disqualification period associated with a dangerous driving conviction and the money required to pay a lawyer to defend it, not to mention all the time off work for court appearances.



Well said. Driving dangerously is a whole magnitude beyond a traffic infringement. Imprisonable up to 3 months, up to $4,500 fine, minimum disqualification of 6 months.

[Winston001]

Just a minor point but no, it's not an offence. Crossing a yellow line on your side is however, regardless of whether you're passing or not. Provided you stay enitrely to the left of the yellow line on your side of the road you're fine. Although in this particular scenario they didn't do that.

Of course, if spotted by the po-po they may try on the catch-all careless/dangerous/reckless charge.

Good point. :niceone:

[MarkH]

This is what the main witnesses account of things would look like in this hypothetical situation if taken from the police disclosure....

I was travelling south on s/h* and climbing the p******* hill. I was off duty but in an unmarked police patrol car. traffic was very heavy and travelling slowly probably about 10-20 kph on average.
As I passed through the end of the first southbound passing laneand just about to cross the viaduct i looked in the external rearview mirror I saw a motorcycle (rider 'A') coming from behind me up the wrong side of the road and on the wrong side of the no passing line. I was unsure of the registration.
I looked in the mirror again and saw a group of motorcycles approaching. The first of these (rider 'B') was performing a 'wheelstand' as the rider came up the hill on the wrong side of the no passing line. The wheelstand was sustained over a considerable distance, perhaps up to 100 meters.
As the motorcycle went past me still on the wrong side of the road I was able to get the registration number *****
I looked again and saw another motorcycle (rider 'C') approaching very quickly. this motorcycle performed a number of short distance wheelstands as it overtook traffic up the wrong side of the no passing lines. As the motorcycle went past me I saw the registration began with a * but could not make out the rest of the plate.
Another 3 motorcycles (riders 'd' 'e' and 'f') followed but I was unable to get thier registration no's.

Now, what may have happened is rider 'A' and rider 'F' were pulled up and issued with dangerous driving notices, for performing these wheelstands, and may now be going to court to defend the charges.
Rider 'B' is being very quiet (pretty sure they know about it...) and rider 'C' is denying everything.
Waddayathink?

If this is the police evidence I am not too sure why A & F are being charged - if indeed the witness got the plate of B and partial of C then where is there any evidence against A or F? I could understand A being charged with crossing the no passing line, but what evidence is there for more than that? This smells like incompetent policing to me! It also seems pretty lucky for B that he wasn't the one charged - if the police witness has his rego number than it would be hard for him to deny the charges. I kinda wonder why B didn't get charged though - it seems that with the rego number identified he was done for.

The big problem with B or C coming forward is that they would have to admit that they were guilty. If A & F go to court they can say they are innocent, it looks like the police witness report would back them up. i.e. A & F go to court and get found not guilty or B & C 'fess up and are in a world of shit. It just strikes me as a bad idea to willingly give the police an easy conviction when they have not charged you with anything, but a good idea to deny the charge when innocent.

TBH I am not too sure that there is anything dangerous about the riding described - why do the police thing that wheelstand = dangerous? I have seen bikes pulling wheelstands and they didn't crash or anything. What exactly was so dangerous?

If I were B or C I would be relieved at not being charged. If I were A or F I would be pissed off at the cops for accusing me of something I didn't do.


You know what really gets ya going is rider 'a' and 'f' thought they'd do the right thing by NOT dropping 'b' and 'c' in it. Guess it pays not to help out your fellow bikers....

If I were in the position of A or F I would find it very difficult to drop B or C in it. I am not a cop and it isn't my job to provide evidence against other bikers that are riding with me. I haven't heard the comments from B or C so I can't really say how much the comments would piss me off. I would be more likely to just turn up in court and say "It wasn't me, I didn't do it" than to actually name those that were guilty.

[DEATH_INC.]

if indeed the witness got the plate of B and partial of C then where is there any evidence against A or F?

I'm guessing you're a young fella, yet to learn the ways of the world.....the plate no they got was indeed for bike 'a', I'm guessing in the confusion of so many bikes he's mistaken 'a' for 'b'. Or just added it in later (not that the cops would EVER do that :innocent: )
'f' got pulled because the plate was not easily readable, so the officer wrongly assumed that was it. :no:

[FROSTY]

mark H As I alluded to in a previous post its all about time and place.
Theres a big difference between a wheelstand down the back straight of Taupo track and say a busy road whilstovertaking traffic.

[White trash]

i think Ducati hard and yamaha64life should fkin man up and tell teh rozzas the truth.

If it were me, i'd have no qualms grassing the 2 of 'em up after there hard ass comments/attitudes.
+1 on that.

The fact that they're not publicly putting "the other side of the story" forward is fair indication there isn't one.

Tell ya what, I'd feel a little worried knowing that two innocent parties are facing some pretty serious charges on account of my gutlessnes, and that if they were convictd, they'd probably be after my arse.

[MarkH]

the plate no they got was indeed for bike 'a', I'm guessing in the confusion of so many bikes he's mistaken 'a' for 'b'. Or just added it in later (not that the cops would EVER do that :innocent: )
'f' got pulled because the plate was not easily readable, so the officer wrongly assumed that was it. :no:

Hmmm, that changes quite a lot. I think that F might have a case since the number plate was not accurately read by the police witness, but A is in trouble. If B came forward would the cops believe him and drop the charges against A? If B appeared in court and said it was him rather than A that the police saw pulling a wheelie then would they believe him and find A innocent? I think B should at least be willing to stand up in court for A and say what happened. Whether they believe B or not - he is the best witness as he was riding behind A and he can truthfully give his account of the incident and hopefully the judge will believe him. C, D & E should also be willing to stand up in court and support A - possibly multiple witnesses may sway the judges decision. B, C, D & E should also be willing to support F in court - though they were in front of F and may not be as accurate in what they saw as for A (since A was in front of them).

Has anyone put the idea of being a witness in court to B or C?

It is a pity you guys didn't decide to take SH16 with me & Toto and a few others. I guess you were in a hurry to get back home - but hurrying on SH1 has certain risks :Police:

[MarkH]

mark H As I alluded to in a previous post its all about time and place.
Theres a big difference between a wheelstand down the back straight of Taupo track and say a busy road whilstovertaking traffic.

Yeah sure, but no one was hurt by it and lifting the front wheel in a straight line isn't necessarily a huge danger, even when passing traffic. If I saw it and not the cop then I would have been impressed (especially by the maybe 100m one). Rider C lifting the front wheel briefly a few times doesn't sound like much of a big deal at all - it just means his bike has good torque. It's just a bit of a bugger that this was spotted by the poh-leese.

[White trash]

Yeah sure, but no one was hurt by it and lifting the front wheel in a straight line isn't necessarily a huge danger, even when passing traffic. If I saw it and not the cop then I would have been impressed (especially by the maybe 100m one). Rider C lifting the front wheel briefly a few times doesn't sound like much of a big deal at all - it just means his bike has good torque. It's just a bit of a bugger that this was spotted by the poh-leese.
Rubbish. It means he's pathetic at doing wheelies but likes people stuck in traffic jams to think he's the man.

[Patch]

Tell ya what, I'd feel a little worried knowing that two innocent parties are facing some pretty serious charges on account of my gutlessnes, and that if they were convictd, they'd probably be after my arse.
not to mention the cost of defending the charges i.e. lawyer expenses
time off work
stress and anxiety of it all etc etc

I look forward to the day Mr. Murphy and Miss Karma decide to do something about it



It means he's pathetic at doing wheelies
the lame cunt would be lucky if he could wheelie himself out of a hospital ward



Yeah sure, but no one was hurt by it
obviously you lack the basic ability to fuckin read

[The Stranger]

TBH I am not too sure that there is anything dangerous about the riding described - why do the police thing that wheelstand = dangerous? I have seen bikes pulling wheelstands and they didn't crash or anything. What exactly was so dangerous?




PD


Still more PD

There is an old adage "it's better to be silent and thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt".

Something to think about.

[MarkH]

obviously you lack the basic ability to fuckin read

Unless I was referring to physical harm? If the poh-leese hadn't caught it then everyone would have gone home happy.

In my younger days I have done stuff way more dangerous (and stupid) than lifting the front wheel off the deck. I am sure that in hindsight those guilty of pulling the wheelstands and attracting police attention are thinking that they shouldn't have done it, but who here hasn't done stuff they shouldn't have?

So where to from now? Does anyone know the risk of prosecution if the wheelie culprits take the stand in court and state on the record that it was they that did what the defendant is accused of? I wouldn't like to see the innocent found guilty if there is something that can be done to save their licenses!


There is an old adage "it's better to be silent and thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt".

Something to think about.

Nah, on the forum I really don't care that much - a certain amount of what I have posted was before Death_inc revealed important facts. If a few people think I am a fool than so what? The good thing about finding out the details here is that it is yet another opportunity to learn from the experiences of others (rather than from my own misfortunes).

[Winston001]

Yeah sure, but no one was hurt by it and lifting the front wheel in a straight line isn't necessarily a huge danger, even when passing traffic.

You should check out youtube - plenty of vids of guys losing it doing wheelies and stoppies. And hitting others.

Mark - it looks dangerous, is dangerous when other traffic is around, and non-motorcyclists don't get it. I do not know how you could ever convince a member of the public or a judge that a wheelie isn't dangerous.

As for your other questions regarding B and C giving evidence, go back up the thread for answers.

[Max Preload]

You should check out youtube - plenty of vids of guys losing it doing wheelies and stoppies. And hitting others.

There are lots of them not coming to grief too. Face it, I can't think of anybody that would waste bandwidth downloading a video of someone pootling along at legal speeds obeying all the rules. (except maybe katman...)


Mark - it looks dangerous, is dangerous when other traffic is around, and non-motorcyclists don't get it. I do not know how you could ever convince a member of the public or a judge that a wheelie isn't dangerous.

It's largely perception like say flying is dangerous, yet statistically it's much more dangerous driving to the airport. I say if it didn't result in any adverse effects, it's not dangerous - it's potentially dangerous as is any activity in a motorvehicle - it's just a case of where you draw your line in the sand. Luckily for the Police there is no well defined line.


As for your other questions regarding B and C giving evidence, go back up the thread for answers.

I agree - they should be witnesses for the defence if the privilege of their testimony remains.

[Headbanger]

It's largely perception like say flying is dangerous,



Uh, Thats a shithouse analogy to make. Of course removing the steering mechanism and 90 perfect of the braking ability from the road is a dangerous manoeuvre, And that's without adding in the massively increased probability of going over backwards, or the fact they were directly in the line of any oncoming vechiles.

Now I can't say I care less if people want to take risks in the name of fun but lets call a spade a spade aye?

[Max Preload]

Uh, Thats a shithouse analogy to make. Of course removing the steering mechanism and 90 perfect of the braking ability from the road is a dangerous manoeuvre, And that's without adding in the massively increased probability of going over backwards, or the fact they were directly in the line of any oncoming vechiles.

If it was so dangerous, why didn't all those things happen? People do things that are far more dangerous like actually get crashed into because they're not giving way and they get a $150 fine, maybe a careless. The outcome for this where not harm is done is likely to be far more severe. We shouldn't be penalising people who don't cause any measurable negative effects from their actions more heavily than those who do.


Now I can't say I care less if people want to take risks in the name of fun but lets call a spade a spade aye?

RACIST!. :killingme

[Headbanger]

If it was so dangerous, why didn't all those things happen?

Your logic sucks.

By your reasoning if it didn't end badly then it isn't dangerous, Surely if you think that through you can see just how stupid it is?

hell, Russian roulette can't have been dangerous to the survivors....

[The Stranger]

It's largely perception like say flying is dangerous, yet statistically it's much more dangerous driving to the airport. I say if it didn't result in any adverse effects, it's not dangerous

Now there is the problem. What you say doesn't really come into it in a court room does it?

Which country do you live in? Because here in NZ there does not have to be any "adverse effects" for the cops to get a dangerous conviction.

[Max Preload]

Your logic sucks.

By your reasoning if it didn't end badly then it isn't dangerous, Surely if you think that through you can see just how stupid it is?

hell, Russian roulette can't have been dangerous to the survivors....

That's strange. I make my living using logic. I better hand back all that moola!

My point is just going out on a bike is dangerous for reasons well beyond your control. Doing a wheelie is something that's down to the individual to decide. Sure, you're going to get munters looping it or whatever but I'm a great believer in personal resposibility and calculated risk and I believe that doing the odd wheelstand on a public road isn't in itself increasing the risk significantly, just like exceeding a arbitrary speed limit.

[Max Preload]

Now there is the problem. What you say doesn't really come into it in a court room does it?

Which country do you live in? Because here in NZ there does not have to be any "adverse effects" for the cops to get a dangerous conviction.

Don't confuse what's right with what's legal. They're often two completely different things.

[Headbanger]

That's strange. I make my living using logic. I better hand back all that moola!



I agree, You should.

Getting away with a dangerous act doesn't remove the danger from it, and keep in mind I'm not condemning anyone for taking that risk, Its their skin not mine, But I will repeat my point, Removing the ability to steer or stop while placing yourself in the opposing lane is increasing the risk on a massive scale and there is no analogy to be made between that behaviour and flying on a plane.....Unless you remove the planes ability to change direction and speed, then aimed it into the flight path of other planes.

[Max Preload]

Removing the ability to steer or stop while placing yourself in the opposing lane is increasing the risk on a massive scale and there is no analogy to be made between that behaviour and flying on a plane...

I disagree. It's purely the perception of being dangerous. My line in the sand is obviously a long way from yours but so what? There are also plenty of people whose own line is a long way from yours but in the opposite direction - they'd totally ban motorcycles given half a chance. I mean, who needs them, right? They're statistically dangerous machines and serve no useful function that cannot be performed by a much safer medium. We should do activities no more dangerous than crochet. Are they more correct than you?

[Headbanger]

I disagree. It's purely the perception of being dangerous. My line in the sand is obviously a long way from yours but so what? There are also plenty of people whose own line is a long way from yours but in the opposite direction - they'd totally ban motorcycles given half a chance. I mean, who needs them, right? They're statistically dangerous machines and serve no useful function that cannot be performed by a much safer medium. We should do activities no more dangerous than crochet. Are they more correct than you?

Wow.Just.........wow.

I never once suggested people stop doing as they please, So bringing up people who want to ban dangerous activities and trying to align that with my position is just pretty damn stupid.

Almost as illogical as claiming increasing risk doesn't exist as its only the perception that changes.

[Max Preload]

Wow.Just.........wow.

I never once suggested people stop doing as they please, So bringing up people who want to ban dangerous activities and trying to align that with my position is just pretty damn stupid.

Almost as illogical as claiming increasing risk doesn't exist as its only the perception that changes.

You suggested that it's dangerous. That's based on your perceptions. Other people would suggest all motorcycling is dangerous. Based on their perceptions and the 'risks' they'd take.

You claim my "logic sucks" yet all the while so is yours to more conservative people. This clearly surprises you. Your hypocrisy serves only to highlight your own belief that everyone else is wrong.

[Headbanger]

Your an idiot if you think there is no increased risk in throwing up a wheelie in the opposing lane. And the rest of your post has already been dismissed as piffle.

[imdying]

I disagree. It's purely the perception of being dangerous. My line in the sand is obviously a long way from yours but so what? There are also plenty of people whose own line is a long way from yours but in the opposite direction - they'd totally ban motorcycles given half a chance. I mean, who needs them, right? They're statistically dangerous machines and serve no useful function that cannot be performed by a much safer medium. We should do activities no more dangerous than crochet. Are they more correct than you?Nice straw man, but you're still full of shit :laugh:

What's the number of the officer that registered the ticket, and what's the plate on R64Lifes bike?

[boomer]

Nice straw man, but you're still full of shit :laugh:

What's the number of the officer that registered the ticket, and what's the plate on R64Lifes bike?


ahahah good call

[Max Preload]

Your an idiot if you think there is no increased risk in throwing up a wheelie in the opposing lane. And the rest of your post has already been dismissed as piffle.

All that means is you've realised the stupidity of your position and have no way to justify it so you'll just try to back out of the discussion to save face. FAIL. :bleh:

Oh, and BTW who is the biggest idiot? It's spelled "you're", tosswad. :lol:

[The Stranger]

Oh, and BTW who is the biggest idiot?


You are the clear winner.

[FROSTY]

Max Preload,Headbanger,Mark H.
Arguing the rights or wrongs of if a wheelie on a busy public road is apsolutely futile and accademic (sp).
Fact is Rider A and F were given tickets because the POLICE have decided that doing so IS dangerous.
The issue here isn't if it is or isn't dangerous. Rgardless SOMEONE has to go to court.Be it to dispute if it is or isn't dangerous or be it to rightfully deny the charges. At stake for rider A and F is their licence.
The issue here is that rider B and C have done nothing to assist.

[MarkH]

Max Preload,Headbanger,Mark H.
Arguing the rights or wrongs of if a wheelie on a busy public road is apsolutely futile and accademic (sp).
Fact is Rider A and F were given tickets because the POLICE have decided that doing so IS dangerous.
The issue here isn't if it is or isn't dangerous. Rgardless SOMEONE has to go to court.Be it to dispute if it is or isn't dangerous or be it to rightfully deny the charges. At stake for rider A and F is their licence.
The issue here is that rider B and C have done nothing to assist.

It seems to me that B & C have to be careful to not come on here, tell their side of the story and incriminate themselves. If they come forward and incriminate themselves with the police then they will lose their licenses (maybe their jobs? I don't know how their employment would be affected). I can understand why they would be reluctant to get themselves in the shit.

I understand that it is a bugger for A & F to be in the position that the police have put them in and would hope that justice would prevail and they may be able to convince a judge that there is enough doubt about the identification of the offending riders.

I am still uncertain about how safe it would be for B & C to admit in court to being the offending riders - it has been suggested that their admission would be protected by privilege and be inadmissible in a case against them and that driving related charges must be made within 6 months of the offence, I am not a lawyer and can't be sure that either of these things are correct. Even if B & C can't safely admit their part in court, surely A could admit to being the first rider (but deny being the 2nd or 3rd) and D, E & F could all be witnesses backing A as the lead rider - hopefully the judge would consider 4 riders vs 1 cop that missed 4 number plates and only got the first digit of the 5th and failed to ID colour or brand of any of the bikes. F could also defend his case similarly with D & E saying that F was behind them and not one of the 2 in front of them that were pulling the wheelies. If A & F could get not guilty verdicts then combined with the police failing to charge the correct riders we could have no one losing their licenses.

Luckily for me I have never been in the position of any of these guys, unluckily all the traffic charges I have faced have been for stuff I did do, so I have paid up every time (never had an occasion to plead not guilty).

[Patch]

At stake for rider A and F is their licence
and possibly their jobs, if it is an employment requirement to have a current license.


There is a crap load of hurt going on - but people will only choose to believe it if they bother to either take their fuckin head outta the sand or unplug it from having it up their arse.


Two arseholes I'll never ride with - ever, whether they decide to step up or not.



It seems to me that B & C have to be careful to not come on here, tell their side of the story and incriminate themselves. If they come forward and incriminate themselves with the police then they will lose their licenses (maybe their jobs? I don't know how their employment would be affected). I can understand why they would be reluctant to get themselves in the shit.
too fucking bad if they cop whats coming to them - do the crime, do the time.

Why the hell should anyone take the rap for someone else's actions (unless they choose too) which is certainly not the case here.

[The Stranger]

It seems to me that B & C have to be careful to not come on here, tell their side of the story and incriminate themselves. If they come forward and incriminate themselves with the police then they will lose their licenses (maybe their jobs? I don't know how their employment would be affected). I can understand why they would be reluctant to get themselves in the shit.

I understand that it is a bugger for A & F to be in the position that the police have put them in and would hope that justice would prevail and they may be able to convince a judge that there is enough doubt about the identification of the offending riders.

I am still uncertain about how safe it would be for B & C to admit in court to being the offending riders - it has been suggested that their admission would be protected by privilege and be inadmissible in a case against them and that driving related charges must be made within 6 months of the offence, I am not a lawyer and can't be sure that either of these things are correct. Even if B & C can't safely admit their part in court, surely A could admit to being the first rider (but deny being the 2nd or 3rd) and D, E & F could all be witnesses backing A as the lead rider - hopefully the judge would consider 4 riders vs 1 cop that missed 4 number plates and only got the first digit of the 5th and failed to ID colour or brand of any of the bikes. F could also defend his case similarly with D & E saying that F was behind them and not one of the 2 in front of them that were pulling the wheelies. If A & F could get not guilty verdicts then combined with the police failing to charge the correct riders we could have no one losing their licenses.

Luckily for me I have never been in the position of any of these guys, unluckily all the traffic charges I have faced have been for stuff I did do, so I have paid up every time (never had an occasion to plead not guilty).

All well and good considering the legal aspects, but you appear to completely fail to consider the moral aspects.
Tell me please. Is honour important? Do you feel anyone has a moral obligation here?

[MarkH]

All well and good considering the legal aspects, but you appear to completely fail to consider the moral aspects.
Tell me please. Is honour important? Do you feel anyone has a moral obligation here?

That's a difficult one to answer accurately - I have never been in that position so what I think I would do may be different to what I would actually do. But I can understand the concept that coming forward and admitting to the wrongdoing leads to certain punishment (if we are talking about loss of job then that is certainly a hefty punishment) whereas the falsely accused can plead not guilty and hopefully get off the charges.

I feel that the police have a moral obligation not to pick out people at random to take the rap for misdeeds. If they can't positively identify the riders doing wheelstands then they should just charge no one or maybe everyone they can identify on the wrong side of the no crossing line (lesser offence, but at least the correct offence in this case).

I think to some degree the results of the court cases will make a difference to how riders B & C feel about their actions. If A & F are found not guilty then B & C will no doubt be happy that no one had to pay for their misdeeds. However if A and/or F are found guilty then it is hard for anyone to feel good about it - though it is more a failing of the justice system than anything else. In a perfect world no one would ever be convicted of any crime they were innocent of - unfortunately we don't live in a perfect world. I think that if I were in the position of B or C and if I could somehow know that A and F would both be found not guilty then I wouldn't come forward - fuck taking the wrath of the law and losing my license if no one else would have lost their license anyway!

Every time I have been caught breaking the law I have taken the consequences. Every time I broke the law and didn't get caught I decided not to go hand myself in to the fuzz so that I could be punished. I doubt anyone here has never done wrong and got away with it.


Why the hell should anyone take the rap for someone else's actions (unless they choose too) which is certainly not the case here.

I would expect in this case the innocent riders would be pleading not guilty and would not be looking to take the rap for this.

If I was in the position of A or F I would plead not guilty and I would talk to the other riders about the idea of them being witnesses in court. I don't think I could bring myself to dob in the guys that pulled wheelstands and I am not too sure that I would expect them to go handing themselves in either. I guess I would gain some degree of extra respect for them if they did hand themselves in and got me off without having to go to court, but I can understand their desire to not do so. If B and C could testify and say it was them that pulled wheelstands without fear of legal repercussions (it would pay to check that with a lawyer, not just KB forums) then I would expect them to be willing to do that. If they would be at risk of being charged if they admitted in court to being the culprits then I would understand them not wanting to do that and I would just get the others to testify. If I got convicted then I would be pretty pissed off at the cops and the legal system, but not so much at riders B & C.

I am not saying that B & C shouldn't come forward or that not coming forward is the right thing to do. I am just saying that they are in a difficult spot and that we are not talking about a certainty of conviction for A & F if they just go to court and plead not guilty. Is it not better that none of them lose their license/job than for 2 of them to sacrifice themselves to the justice system?

I guess there are plenty of people on these forums that have a different view to mine and think that anyone should be happy to rush in and confess their misdeeds to the police - if they lose their job due to that than it is just tough. I guess that thinking would apply even if they had a wife and children to support and a loss of job would mean hardship to the whole family. I am just trying to be a bit more understanding of both sides here and it is only my opinion - no one here is forced to agree with me.

[DEATH_INC.]

Ok, one last twist on this.
At this stage the only damage done is a hit to the finances of two people who can't really afford it, time off work (again not really desirable) and a fair bit of stress/lost sleep/anguish etc.
What if 'A' and 'F' do get done, and lose their licenses. Both have a long distance to travel to work, and rider 'F' is in the automotive trade where a license is required, so there is the very real prospect of loosing his job. That aside, have you ever tried to travel across jafaland on the buses? :no:
The costs will go into the thousands of dollars, and the stress on the families goes through the roof.


Would you expect the guilty parties to own up then and try to get the decision reversed? :confused:

[The Stranger]

That's a difficult one to answer accurately - I have never been in that position so what I think I would do may be different to what I would actually do. But I can understand the concept that coming forward and admitting to the wrongdoing leads to certain punishment (if we are talking about loss of job then that is certainly a hefty punishment) whereas the falsely accused can plead not guilty and hopefully get off the charges.

I feel that the police have a moral obligation not to pick out people at random to take the rap for misdeeds. If they can't positively identify the riders doing wheelstands then they should just charge no one or maybe everyone they can identify on the wrong side of the no crossing line (lesser offence, but at least the correct offence in this case).

I think to some degree the results of the court cases will make a difference to how riders B & C feel about their actions. If A & F are found not guilty then B & C will no doubt be happy that no one had to pay for their misdeeds. However if A and/or F are found guilty then it is hard for anyone to feel good about it - though it is more a failing of the justice system than anything else. In a perfect world no one would ever be convicted of any crime they were innocent of - unfortunately we don't live in a perfect world. I think that if I were in the position of B or C and if I could somehow know that A and F would both be found not guilty then I wouldn't come forward - fuck taking the wrath of the law and losing my license if no one else would have lost their license anyway!

Every time I have been caught breaking the law I have taken the consequences. Every time I broke the law and didn't get caught I decided not to go hand myself in to the fuzz so that I could be punished. I doubt anyone here has never done wrong and got away with it.



Fark!
What a lot of fucken shit!
What about friends?
Have you had any?

[FROSTY]

Mark what world do you live in??
Ok lets go with your idea here--hey fuggit theyre gonna get found not guilty so no loss no foul.
So tell me who pays rider A and F's wages for that day in court?
Who pays the lawyers bills for that day. Id suggest hypothetically speaking around the $900 EACH mark?
Also do you think rider A or F can afford NOT to tell their employer in advance. Even should it go well do you feel come promotion time either persons employer is going to see them as a shining light??
And anyway Do you honestly feel that at the very least rider B and C shouldn't apologise to the other two riders??

[DEATH_INC.]

Who pays the lawyers bills for that day. Id suggest hypothetically speaking around the $900 EACH mark?
:laugh: rider 'a's first quote was $5500 for a defense....

[boomer]

:laugh: rider 'a's first quote was $5500 for a defense....

For a beer and a packet of cheese whatsits i'll give u a water tight defence.. Just like imdying, all i need is a number plate and an officer #.

[MarkH]

Mark what world do you live in??
Ok lets go with your idea here--hey fuggit theyre gonna get found not guilty so no loss no foul.
So tell me who pays rider A and F's wages for that day in court?
Who pays the lawyers bills for that day. Id suggest hypothetically speaking around the $900 EACH mark?
Also do you think rider A or F can afford NOT to tell their employer in advance. Even should it go well do you feel come promotion time either persons employer is going to see them as a shining light??
And anyway Do you honestly feel that at the very least rider B and C shouldn't apologise to the other two riders??

I agree that it is a shitty situation - it does bug me that the police would do that to innocent people. If only the police would apologise for the shit that they put innocent people through. I am not convinced that the anger directed against B & C here shouldn't be directed at the police instead, they are the ones charging the wrong people.

Why couldn't the police have just dished out instant fines for illegal passing and let these guys go on their way. Court appearances & time off work for 2 guys that didn't even do what the cops are accusing them of - way over the top IMO.

If riders B & C want to apologise to A & F then I am fine with that - I bet the police don't apologise though!

[MarkH]

What about friends?
Have you had any?

Yep, more than enough friends - thanks for asking. Never had one expect me to take the rap for them or vice versa.

Isn't this hypothetical case more about some guys riding together that are not necessarily best buds or anything? Cause I think that would make a difference too.

[The Stranger]

Yep, more than enough friends - thanks for asking. Never had one expect me to take the rap for them or vice versa.

Isn't this hypothetical case more about some guys riding together that are not necessarily best buds or anything? Cause I think that would make a difference too.

You have done everything possible to avoid the issue. I think it only fair to assume you have no concept of morality or honour amongst friends, hence my question.
Being that you assure me you do infact have friends, how say you, would you let a friend take the rap for you in this case?
How about if it were say Frosty, would you let him take the rap for you in this case?

Now, lets try and cut the waffle in your response. 2 questions, yes or no answers will suffice. No ducking and weaving is necessary and there are no additional points for extra words.

[DEATH_INC.]

Why couldn't the police have just dished out instant fines for illegal passing and let these guys go on their way.
Part of the problem is the witness wasn't the one handing out the fines, he was stuck in traffic. It was two completely different officers who did not witness the offences.


Isn't this hypothetical case more about some guys riding together that are not necessarily best buds or anything? Cause I think that would make a difference too
Correct, just acquaintances through a biker website.

[Madness]

Consider this...

There have been quite a few posts in here that sum up some of the consequences that Rider A may have faced already, prior to the case being heard. With some inside knowledge, I can add to this the following:

On the day of the incident, Rider A had to go home and tell their partner of the charge. At the time the partner had been receiving courses of both Chemo & Radiation therapy (they give you that when you have Cancer).

Since the day (now 5 months ago), Rider A has had the weight of the charges hanging over them, like a very dark cloud. Not a day goes by when they don't consider how the fuck they will get to work & back each day, without putting their (sick) partner to unwanted inconvenience, should they get convicted.

Since not long after the day, Rider A has had their bike in the shed, rego on hold. It aint much fun sitting home all weekend brooding, especially when you read threads on KB about certain fuckwits pulling wheelstands in front of the Poo-lice and getting away with it.

Since the day, Rider A has paid $500 to a Lawyer and got SFA for their money. They have now found a more affordable Lawyer, possibly requiring only another $1000 to defend them. As Death mentioned, the first Lawyer wanted $5,500 just for the defended hearing.

So far Rider has taken one day off work, another day off pending and all before a defended hearing date has been set.

Rider A has had to put off plans to buy their first home, the legal bills were scaring the crap out of them.

Rider A had no idea that other riders were pulling wheelstands at the time of the incident, they were at the front and looking forward, trying to get home to their sick partner. It's only since the day that they learned what was going on behind them.

The last time Rider A pulled a wheelstand was in 1991, on an RM250 and it was by accident. Rider A does not pull wheelstands, let alone on S.H.1 in a traffic jam, on the wrong side of double-yellows.

Yes, the Poo-lice suck. Rider's A & F are not asking anyone to take the rap for them, it's purely about assuming responsibility for ones own actions, as opposed to being a gutless wonder who is prepared to let someone else pay for their fuck-ups.

Mark H, go ride your fucking scooter will ya?.

[MarkH]

You have done everything possible to avoid the issue. I think it only fair to assume you have no concept of morality or honour amongst friends, hence my question.
Being that you assure me you do infact have friends, how say you, would you let a friend take the rap for you in this case?
How about if it were say Frosty, would you let him take the rap for you in this case?

Now, lets try and cut the waffle in your response. 2 questions, yes or no answers will suffice. No ducking and weaving is necessary and there are no additional points for extra words.

TBH
I am less than impressed with the personal attacks on me for expressing my opinion on this forum. If you really think that it is fair to assume that I have no concept of morality or honour amongst friends then I think you might want to think a bit harder about yourself and your views. Who started this thread to get the opinions and feelings of the rest of us on this forum and did that person do so while not wanting to know anything from anyone that had a different viewpoint from himself?

I have never said that I would let a friend take the rap for me and I have never put a friend in that position. Since I don't pull wheelstands and we are not talking about me than what does it matter what I would do? I have no reason to drop Frosty in the shit for anything and though I have never met him (I don't think I have anyway) from what I have read on the forums he is a decent stand up guy and I have no reason to do anything bad to him.

Just because I can see the position that riders B & C are in and think that the cops are the bad guys in this particular case I don't think that really makes me a bastard. I don't have access to all the facts and so I don't like to condemn a couple of guys based on only part of the story. But I do have a lot of sympathy for the 2 riders accused of something that from what has been told here they didn't do and it seems to me (again from what I understand from the facts mentioned here) that the police have been pretty shocking in this case.


Mark H, go ride your fucking scooter will ya?.

I have to wonder if there is really any need for this sort of shit? Is this an internet discussion forum for people to give their opinions on only if they agree with you?

[The Stranger]

I have no reason to drop Frosty in the shit for anything and though I have never met him (I don't think I have anyway) from what I have read on the forums he is a decent stand up guy and I have no reason to do anything bad to him.


So that's a "no" to my prior post then and "Man" on the poll.

I humbly and graciously accept your gratitude for the arduous task of assisting you with your decision making process with such dedication, patience, care and understanding.

[Winston001]

.......it seems to me (again from what I understand from the facts mentioned here) that the police have been pretty shocking in this case.


Mark, what exactly do you think is the job of a police officer? Imagine you and your bike were kicked over by a group of youths. The police grab a couple of street kids a few minutes later whom you identify as "looking" like two of the offenders. And the police say - "Sorry mate, we weren't there to see it so we won't be laying charges."

It isn't a game. The police must believe they have identified the correct riders sufficiently to take this to court. They understand that a judge might disagree - but most of the time the police get convictions which suggests they get the balance right.

[MarkH]

It isn't a game. The police must believe they have identified the correct riders sufficiently to take this to court. They understand that a judge might disagree - but most of the time the police get convictions which suggests they get the balance right.

Well I hope in this case they don't get their conviction - clearly they did not identify the correct riders and have, as a result, put a couple of bikers through quite a stressful process. I have never been one to be happy to see innocent people convicted because the police were just doing their best charging those that look like the culprits.

I would hope the other riders that were there would be very willing to stand up in court and do their best to sway the judge in favour of the innocent guys.

[The Stranger]

Mmmm, I've resisted posting this up long enough... if anyone's interested.
This is what the main witnesses account of things would look like in this hypothetical situation if taken from the police disclosure....

I was travelling south on s/h* and climbing the p******* hill. I was off duty but in an unmarked police patrol car. traffic was very heavy and travelling slowly probably about 10-20 kph on average.
As I passed through the end of the first southbound passing laneand just about to cross the viaduct i looked in the external rearview mirror I saw a motorcycle (rider 'A') coming from behind me up the wrong side of the road and on the wrong side of the no passing line. I was unsure of the registration.
I looked in the mirror again and saw a group of motorcycles approaching. The first of these (rider 'B') was performing a 'wheelstand' as the rider came up the hill on the wrong side of the no passing line. The wheelstand was sustained over a considerable distance, perhaps up to 100 meters.
As the motorcycle went past me still on the wrong side of the road I was able to get the registration number *****
I looked again and saw another motorcycle (rider 'C') approaching very quickly. this motorcycle performed a number of short distance wheelstands as it overtook traffic up the wrong side of the no passing lines. As the motorcycle went past me I saw the registration began with a * but could not make out the rest of the plate.
Another 3 motorcycles (riders 'd' 'e' and 'f') followed but I was unable to get thier registration no's.
I radioed ahead and passed the information I had to Highway patrol units. These hp units stopped these vehicles further down the road.
By the time I had travelled to P**** in the traffic stream the motorcycles had been stopped at C************ Drive.


Now, what may have happened is rider 'A' and rider 'F' were pulled up and issued with dangerous driving notices, for performing these wheelstands, and may now be going to court to defend the charges.
Rider 'B' is being very quiet (pretty sure they know about it...) and rider 'C' is denying everything.
Waddayathink?


Consider this...

There have been quite a few posts in here that sum up some of the consequences that Rider A may have faced already, prior to the case being heard. With some inside knowledge, I can add to this the following:

On the day of the incident, Rider A had to go home and tell their partner of the charge. At the time the partner had been receiving courses of both Chemo & Radiation therapy (they give you that when you have Cancer).

Since the day (now 5 months ago), Rider A has had the weight of the charges hanging over them, like a very dark cloud. Not a day goes by when they don't consider how the fuck they will get to work & back each day, without putting their (sick) partner to unwanted inconvenience, should they get convicted.

Since not long after the day, Rider A has had their bike in the shed, rego on hold. It aint much fun sitting home all weekend brooding, especially when you read threads on KB about certain fuckwits pulling wheelstands in front of the Poo-lice and getting away with it.

Since the day, Rider A has paid $500 to a Lawyer and got SFA for their money. They have now found a more affordable Lawyer, possibly requiring only another $1000 to defend them. As Death mentioned, the first Lawyer wanted $5,500 just for the defended hearing.

So far Rider has taken one day off work, another day off pending and all before a defended hearing date has been set.

Rider A has had to put off plans to buy their first home, the legal bills were scaring the crap out of them.

Rider A had no idea that other riders were pulling wheelstands at the time of the incident, they were at the front and looking forward, trying to get home to their sick partner. It's only since the day that they learned what was going on behind them.

The last time Rider A pulled a wheelstand was in 1991, on an RM250 and it was by accident. Rider A does not pull wheelstands, let alone on S.H.1 in a traffic jam, on the wrong side of double-yellows.

Yes, the Poo-lice suck. Rider's A & F are not asking anyone to take the rap for them, it's purely about assuming responsibility for ones own actions, as opposed to being a gutless wonder who is prepared to let someone else pay for their fuck-ups.

Mark H, go ride your fucking scooter will ya?.

Riders B & C, your silence is DEAFENING.

[imdying]

None of them really owe anyone anything. They were all on the ride, probably all speeding at times, probably grossly at times, probably all riding over the yellow lines at times... we've (sports bike riders) all been there. They've probably all done it for years, and have some great times on bikes, some bad times (tickets) too. I'd wager that they all know very well that if you run with the bulls, chances are eventually you'll get stomped.

If the man who got pinged doesn't want to take the fall, for whatever reason (sick partner, not that close to the real culprit, can't afford it, whatever) then they should point the law in right direction. Whoever really did it can't really complain too much, they actually did it after all.

I would take the fall for my close mates, but I don't have a sick spouse at home that would be grossly inconvenienced, and I can afford the bill. If they're not close, and their partner is really that sick, then the way forward is clear.

Situation reversed, given those circumstances, I'd understand why I was going to be 'dobbed in'. Although if they came to me and told me why they had to do it, I'd probably go to the pen with them and have it all sorted out on the spot, rather than having it turn even messier with the he said she said.

Riders B & C should keep their heads down as they've been doing, no need to incriminate other riders any further.

[FROSTY]

Imdying. I suspect you havent read what the issue is.
Quite specifically 2 guys did something the cops feel dangerous. That SPECIFICALLY being pulling wheelies on a busy road on the wrong side of no passing lines. Rider A doesn't do wheelies and rider F does wheelies only where theres noone around.
Rider C boasts at his "ability" to do wheelies in busy public places and get away with it.

[imdying]

I suspect I can't follow the ABCD rubbish. Just give them names and be done with it, from what I can tell rider A is R64Life, who're the others?

[Mikkel]

I suspect I can't follow the ABCD rubbish. Just give them names and be done with it, from what I can tell rider A is R64Life, who're the others?

Noo noo noo, you are wrong. This is a hypothetical situation - i.e. it never really happened. Just a thought experiment you know...

:rolleyes:

[R6_kid]

I suspect I can't follow the ABCD rubbish. Just give them names and be done with it, from what I can tell rider A is R64Life, who're the others?

Re-read the last post by Madness - do you think he knows that about another person (whom he hadn't previously met) who didn't get a ticket on that fatefull day. That's who rider A is.

[imdying]

Screw that, I can't follow all that dribble... Surely it's either a community issue, and all should be revealed, or the thread has served it's purpose and is due for the PD bin? Unless there is more value to be had? Other than the comical value of course...

[White trash]

Consider this...

There have been quite a few posts in here that sum up some of the consequences that Rider A may have faced already, prior to the case being heard. With some inside knowledge, I can add to this the following:

On the day of the incident, Rider A had to go home and tell their partner of the charge. At the time the partner had been receiving courses of both Chemo & Radiation therapy (they give you that when you have Cancer).

Since the day (now 5 months ago), Rider A has had the weight of the charges hanging over them, like a very dark cloud. Not a day goes by when they don't consider how the fuck they will get to work & back each day, without putting their (sick) partner to unwanted inconvenience, should they get convicted.

Since not long after the day, Rider A has had their bike in the shed, rego on hold. It aint much fun sitting home all weekend brooding, especially when you read threads on KB about certain fuckwits pulling wheelstands in front of the Poo-lice and getting away with it.

Since the day, Rider A has paid $500 to a Lawyer and got SFA for their money. They have now found a more affordable Lawyer, possibly requiring only another $1000 to defend them. As Death mentioned, the first Lawyer wanted $5,500 just for the defended hearing.

So far Rider has taken one day off work, another day off pending and all before a defended hearing date has been set.

Rider A has had to put off plans to buy their first home, the legal bills were scaring the crap out of them.

Rider A had no idea that other riders were pulling wheelstands at the time of the incident, they were at the front and looking forward, trying to get home to their sick partner. It's only since the day that they learned what was going on behind them.

The last time Rider A pulled a wheelstand was in 1991, on an RM250 and it was by accident. Rider A does not pull wheelstands, let alone on S.H.1 in a traffic jam, on the wrong side of double-yellows.

Yes, the Poo-lice suck. Rider's A & F are not asking anyone to take the rap for them, it's purely about assuming responsibility for ones own actions, as opposed to being a gutless wonder who is prepared to let someone else pay for their fuck-ups.

Mark H, go ride your fucking scooter will ya?.


Riders B & C, your silence is DEAFENING.

Bullshit to both the above posts. You're both fucken liars.

I've got a red rep from rider C or B or what the fuck ever saying that video footage will be posted and you'll all be outed as the foolish lying cunts you are.

Chris, I can't believe for on minute that I was actually sucked in by yours, Andys and Noels blatant lies. I mean, my red rep proves it!

I feel so dirty, I'm off to shower and scrub myself with a steelo pad. I feel so dirty......

[Rodney007]

Yes, and no, rider 'A' doesn't do 'em, rider 'f' chooses time and place a little more carefully....hypothetically.

why dont you talk to these ppl yourself, IN PERSON and sort it out
why did stranger make this post, is it any of his buisness?

its all kinda childish, be men! your all cool bikers arent yah?

[The Stranger]

why did stranger make this post, is it any of his buisness?


You mean the thread?
Same reason I made this thread (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=87897).
Because I am not so closed minded as to think I am always right.
One thing you can always be sure of on KB, you will get views and opinions you never considered. I like my thinking to be challenged, I value these opinions and in both cases have adjusted my thinking (lets call it learning shall we) as a consequence.

Do you find it uncomfortable debating issues of morality?

[Maha]

I've got a red rep from rider C or B or what the fuck ever saying that video footage will be posted and you'll all be outed as the foolish lying cunts you are.

Well DucatiHard does produce rather cool vids, in saying that, the last one I watched produced a debate on a passing manoeuvre that resulted in 'seeing one thing and not seeing it at all' ...so never the tawin shall meet.

[Madness]

video footage will be posted.

:corn: ......... :wait:
<tenchars>

[DEATH_INC.]

I've got a red rep from rider C or B or what the fuck ever saying that video footage will be posted and you'll all be outed as the foolish lying cunts you are.
I'll start by Saying I am 'F'
The video footage will be of me doing wheelies, I've never hidden the fact that I do 'em. Most of the people on here have seen me. I did some on that day too, BUT not past a queue of pissed off motorists sitting in a line of traffic with cellphones. As I said earlier, time and place. There's a reason I haven't been done for it before.
I'm not gonna talk to these guys about it because I'm not in the right frame of mind anymore.
Edit: BTW We did txt one of these two and basically got told too bad, and have pmed this guy too.

[DEATH_INC.]

Screw that, I can't follow all that dribble... Surely it's either a community issue, and all should be revealed, or the thread has served it's purpose and is due for the PD bin? Unless there is more value to be had? Other than the comical value of course...
You're probably right, The stranger posted this up to get some opinions (or whatever) and it's turned into a bit of a bitchfest.
The two guilty parties can do what they want, next time I won't be keeping quiet. I'd love to see the video's too.
I've learned a few lessons from this situation, and from this thread, so it won't happen again. :no:

[Rodney007]

thanks for red rep

[White trash]

thanks for red rep
Hey. Anytime, glad ya liked it.

[White trash]

:corn: ......... :wait:
<tenchars>
You wont be eating popcorn when you're exposed as a foolish lying cunt mate. Just you wait..........

[White trash]

I'll start by Saying I am 'F'
The video footage will be of me doing wheelies, I've never hidden the fact that I do 'em. Most of the people on here have seen me. I did some on that day too, BUT not past a queue of pissed off motorists sitting in a line of traffic with cellphones. As I said earlier, time and place. There's a reason I haven't been done for it before.
I'm not gonna talk to these guys about it because I'm not in the right frame of mind anymore.
Edit: BTW We did txt one of these two and basically got told too bad, and have pmed this guy too.
I dare say there's a few of me behaving the same way. Jesus! I was even on the cover, of one of the biggest national bike mags, doing a MINT (if I may say so myself) stand-up on a public road. The difference is, the guys I was riding with weren't being prosecuted for my actions. As you say, time and place.

I will say this though. I don't know how old these two chaps are. They probbably don't have the benefit of our years of experience. When I was a youngster, having just got into big modern bikes, I did some steeeeee-oooopid shit that on reflection, I should never have done. I was also shit scared of some of the consequences of my actions. Back then, would I have acted differently to rider B and C? I can't say. I was terrified of the fallout from my parents, the law, everything. Perhaps these guys know they've fucked up, but they're in too deep and now don't know what to do.

Just a thought.

[Rodney007]

Hey. Anytime, glad ya liked it.


:weep: .

[Rodney007]

You mean the thread?
Same reason I made this thread (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=87897).
Because I am not so closed minded as to think I am always right.
One thing you can always be sure of on KB, you will get views and opinions you never considered. I like my thinking to be challenged, I value these opinions and in both cases have adjusted my thinking (lets call it learning shall we) as a consequence.

Do you find it uncomfortable debating issues of morality?

i meant its none of our buisness, it just stirs up crap when you all
know each other, and it can be sorted out. its a legal + moral issue which is best sorted in person,

[SARGE]

ive ben on a few rides with some people i know and a few i dont ..


shit started getting stupid and i took the next right and found my own road


theres only a handfull of people i will ride with now just because of this hypothetical situation

[DEATH_INC.]

i meant its none of our buisness, it just stirs up crap when you all
know each other, and it can be sorted out. its a legal + moral issue which is best sorted in person,
Maybe, but maybe it will make the parties on both sides think about what they've done, and others think about what they would do in the same situation.
I for one would not do the same.
BTW, when the only response you get is 'too bad', and 'he got what was coming' I don't think it could be sorted in person, plus I'm not known for my placid temperament....

[Winston001]

i meant its none of our buisness, it just stirs up crap when you all
know each other, and it can be sorted out. its a legal + moral issue which is best sorted in person,

I think The Strangers hypothetical question is perfectly valid. It has drawn out quite a variety of attitudes and points of view. Nothing wrong with discussing a situation which can happen easily enough, and maybe some of us will think differently as a result.

[Winston001]

Been mulling this whole thing over:

Firstly if I was riding with mates, they are friends and we look out for each other. I could never let a friend take the rap for something which was my fault.

Secondly, riding with a group of acquaintances, say Ulysses/KB, well I wouldn't feel the bond of shared culpability quite so strongly. After all, I don't really know these other people and unlike friends, can't predict what they might do. I'd be pretty pissed off to get charged with something another rider did but expecting him/her to come forward........probably too much to ask.

Would I let one of this group face a charge over my actions? I'd have to be very convinced this was true. I'd certainly feel guilty.......which means I'd probably put my hands up. Its a matter of living with yourself.

Thirdly, riding with a loose informal group who have gathered at some point on the road. Can't say I'd feel guilty, we are all ride our own course.

[Patch]

Its a matter of living with yourself
well, given the fact that one perp is a Maori and the other is an Indian - is there really any need to explain their lack of "hand raising"

[scumdog]

Been mulling this whole thing over:

Firstly if I was riding with mates, they are friends and we look out for each other. I could never let a friend take the rap for something which was my fault.

Secondly, riding with a group of acquaintances, say Ulysses/KB, well I wouldn't feel the bond of shared culpability quite so strongly. After all, I don't really know these other people and unlike friends, can't predict what they might do. I'd be pretty pissed off to get charged with something another rider did but expecting him/her to come forward........probably too much to ask.

Would I let one of this group face a charge over my actions? I'd have to be very convinced this was true. I'd certainly feel guilty.......which means I'd probably put my hands up. Its a matter of living with yourself.

Thirdly, riding with a loose informal group who have gathered at some point on the road. Can't say I'd feel guilty, we are all ride our own course.

Wouldn't ride with anybody who I thought would let an innocent take the rap....

[Patch]

As if I take any bloody notice of red rep, so you cunts can shove the red up your fucking arse.


Truth hurts huh.


Come say it to my face Raj - you spineless wanker.

[scumdog]

As if I take any bloody notice of red rep, so you cunts can shove the red up your fucking arse.


Truth hurts huh.


Come say it to my face Raj - you spineless wanker.

I wonder what this all means???

[SixPackBack]

I wonder what this all means???

Patch is getting upset when folk object to his racism.