Speed cameras cost lives

[SpankMe]

Somebody posted this on SV650 forum, thought you might like to see it

Drivers' Association says speed cameras cost lives
THE ASSOCIATION of British Drivers claims that since revenue-generating speed cameras started proliferating, road deaths have reached over 5,000.

It says that government statistics show that as the numbers of speed cameras soared from 1993 onwards, the downward trend in road deaths that had existed for decades was almost completely lost. Had the former trend (a year on year 6% decrease in fatalities) continued, about 5500 people that have died on the roads in the last decade would be alive today.

The Associations claims that drivers who would normally be looking for potential hazards now have to split their attention and concentrate on spotting speed cameras and watching their speedometers.

At the same time uninsured, drunk and dangerous drivers now enjoy a greatly reduced chance of being apprehended as traffic police are switched to other duties. Further evidence of this is provided by the steady reduction in those apprehended for careless, dangerous and drunken driving from 232,000 in 1990 to 144,000 in 2000, a decrease of 37% in absolute terms, and a decrease of over 45% when increased traffic is allowed for.

Police, magistrates, and local councils, have always sought to justify cameras by claiming to save lives.

The usual basis for this claim, says the Association is that in locations where cameras are installed, the number of accidents reduces in the period immediately following their installation. What the partnerships invariably fail to acknowledge is that they place cameras at locations where there have been unusually high numbers of accidents in the three year period preceding the camera installation, and where accident numbers would probably have reduced by a simple process of chance.

This effect is extremely well understood, says the ABD and is known to statisticians as "regression to the mean" - the tendency for unusually high numbers of crashes to occur from time to time but not to be repeated year in and year out.

[Big Dog]

MMM something to cogitate upon?

[SPman]

Exactly. Drivers and riders groups have been hammering on, on a similar theme for years. If we think speed cameras are bad here, apparently they are everywhere in the UK - where they were brought in, after 1 year of a 2 year trial! Usual story, pick areas with a high blip in the accident/death figures, announce after 1 year that the results have been so succesful in reducing accidents (ie, the statistical blip returns to normal), that the 2nd year of the trial is unnecesary and "lives will be lost if we dont implement cameras immediately!" and promptly introduced thousands of the accursed things, reducing police numbers because the Robots would keep traffic in check!

Fuckwits!

[scumdog]

A cunning plan - let's make speed-cameras redundant: ride/drive at the speed limit!!! that'll do the trick.
One day I'll get caught by a speed camera but if you pick your roads you can waft along at a reasonable clip without grief -'course ya got to keep an eye out for "the man".

[wkid_one]

I am sorry guys - but why the whinging - at the end of the day it is only going to get worse not better.  As speeding causes death (society doesn't tend to like that word) and is a form of revenue collection - it is going to remain the focus of the police.

Why speed cameras?  Well they are the most cost efficient way of policing a set stretch (or spot more like) of road.

In Britian they are presently trialing GPS tags in cars - with the intention that all new vehicles introduced (yes MB as well) come out with a GPS tag.  This is then monitored by a network of GPS satellites - which can tell the police at any moment in time who is speeding.

The result - you end up with a ticket in the mail.

I would rather has speed cameras anyday....don't whinge too loud - coz they are more likely just to up the ante

[SPman]

don't whinge too loud - coz they are more likely just to up the ante

I think you will find they continue to up the ante regardless of any whinging or not on the part of Joe Public!

The more you make known your displeasure at actions of an overbearing control nature, the better. History shows that ,ultimately, authorities ignore, at their peril, rising tides of protestation from the public masses!

[Lou Girardin]

The stats Spankme quoted, closely mirror NZ's. Our fatalities are up 40 approx over last year. I'd dispute whether camera enforcement does lower speeds, locals get to know where fixed cameras are and slow for them. Mobile cameras become easily recognised, except when they change vehicle types, and that's short tern anyway.
There's a vast difference between getting a ticket 3 - 4 weeks later and being stopped at the time of the offence.
Some UK Police forces have changed from semi - hidden cameras to brightly painted ones because of public outrage. If enough people keep the pressure on the Govt, they will back down. One thing Govt's want more than revenue, is votes.
Lou

[Sharkey]

I have difficulty with the trail of causation with the article Spank Me quoted. It seems to me that if there is currently a high in the death rate, then perhaps that is simply "regression to the mean" from the previous years of falling rates. Also, if drivers are spending so much time searching for cameras and watching speedometers that they crash, then they probably shouldn't be on the road. It is easy to maintain a speed with regular glances at the speedo - you don't need to be constantly looking. If drivers are concentrating on the job at hand, then there should be ample time to see hazards. The comments about diverting traffic police to other tasks seems more pertinent.

Also, lets consider some other trends that have been going on in the last decade. There has been huge growth in the modification market, and quick as vechicles are now cheep as chips, but I would wager that drivers are no better.

The trouble with statistics is that they can mean anything. The people who wrote that article obviously had their on barrow to push, and chose to interpret their stats to suit.

[MikeL]

Originally posted by scumdog
A cunning plan - let's make speed-cameras redundant: ride/drive at the speed limit!!! that'll do the trick.


A cunning plan indeed Baldrick, I mean Scumdog. Of course it's only really feasible if we know at all times where the cameras are operating. Would be a bit of a drag if we had to keep to the limit everywhere, wouldn't it?

So what we need is an easily accessible and constantly updated database which we can quickly consult before we leave home. Since the Ministry of Road Revenue is unlikely to provide us with such information (quite unaccountably, because it would after all be helping to prevent law-breaking!), we would have to build and maintain the database ourselves.

I suggest a new KB Forum...
:p

Must stop now. Have to post off a cheque for $170 to Wellington.

P.S. Does anyone know if there is a fixed camera on Mt Smart Rd between Curzon St and Rockfield Rd??? Where exactly??
:argh:

[Lou Girardin]

Well, I've been driving/riding along time without too many biffs and bangs. But I'm buggered if I can read the RF speedo at a glance. The km/h numbers are too small, my eyes are too old, so I fitted a bike computer, much better.
But, even when I'm cruising I find the speed creeps up unnoticed, especially in cars. The 10 km/h tolerance is bad enough, 5 is going to be a real pain.
I hope there's a particularly hot corner of hell reserved for traffic nazis.
Lou

[aff-man]

I can attest to the fact that the fear of  speeding tickets can cause an accident. Since getting the zxr which picks up speed a hell of a lot quicker than the vt, i have found myself glancing way to much at the speedo and in a few cases going a little to close to the curb or center line. Now i know that speeding does kill but my bike is only a 250 and what hope do i have of keeping my licence and not getting killed on a bigger bike (if it is lowered to a 5km/h tolerance). And it's not due to road conditions or statistics it's just bloody ridiculious people saying that hmmmmm i want to be recognised so i have this thoery with evidence(all be it a load of crap) that lowering the tolerance will decrease road accidents.   :angry2: :angry2: :beer:

[scumdog]

I'm with you Sharkey, hell, how much effort does it take to keep an eye on the speedo needle? most times I can read my dumb old H-D guage no problem and you don't have to actually look at the number, - the needle position is enough to go by.
On another point, - all you whingers out there, - how fast do you think you should be allowed to go? and if there was a hypothetical speed limit of say 140kmh, how would you expect that to be enforced? (and to your satisfaction so that you don't whinge?). - and you can bet your bottom dollar that when someone did crash at that speed and somehow survived the old Kiwi "blame someone else" syndrome would kick in and they would moan "if the speed limit wasn't so high I wouldn't have crashed".
Face it, there are enough slack-jawed, mouth-breathing improvident lack-wits that are out of their depth speed-wise when they are doing 70kmh!!!

[750Y]

if speeding on the open road is the big nasty then why not simply restrict vehicles to a top speed? That won't stop people driving poorly or doing 100 in a 50 of course. I'm not saying that appeals to me personally, but surely it's a logical possibility.
there seems to be some mixed messages coming from the government about what the road safety campaign is really about.
it seems to me they're saying you can have the capacity but god help you if you use it we'll make some money out of that. i think it's a lot of BS. I do think we're responsible for our actions tho. but the thing is the government weilds the power so why don't they act instead of providing the ambulance at the bottom of the cliff? it's not rocket science, it's politics. blablabla. all's im saying is maybe they should start walking the talk.

[Lou Girardin]

It's the old 'lowest common denominator' thing again. Make laws for the yokels, then hammer anyone who dares to stand above it.
Why can't we have limits of 120, 130 or 150 in places. It works for other countries. All we have to do, is make sure people can drive before they get licences.
Lou

[750Y]

and make sure the roads are up to scratch.

[scumdog]

Lou, I'm with you but at the moment people ARE meant to pass a driving test (apparently!!) however a lot of drivers should not be allowed out of a parking lot - and if speed limits were linked to ability then more than a few motorcyclist wouldn't be allowed fast enough to retain their balance.
That self-pumping idiot Alan Dick (of Driver magazine) has suggested different speeds for different roads, i.e. in the Mackenzie Basin down south here (where the roads are rifle barrel straight for miles and no cross roads) he suggested a speed limit of 120kmh (which of course would be bumped to 130kph).
The problem with that is you not only have me on my Sporty doing that speed but also Miss Yakanoda from Japan trying to do the same - with almost no open road two-lane driving experience plus you'll also have Mr Knob from Fendalton towing his 30 foot boat with twin outboards behind his Subaru wagon trying to do that speed "so I don't hold up the traffic" as they say - often the nearest thing they say that isn't self centred.
Mix in tourist busses (lots) and stock & transport trucks and you have a recipe for nasty meetingst:argh:

[jrandom]

Originally posted by scumdog
I'm with you Sharkey, hell, how much effort does it take to keep an eye on the speedo needle?

ain't none needed when your bike is vibrating like a washing machine on meth at any speed over 85km/h, dude

:p

[scumdog]

Hah!! jrandom, I see by your comment that despite having a funny head (where do you buy your helmets?) and a little blue bike you have in fact experienced the life broadening thrill of riding on a pre-Evo Harley!!
A mate of mine had a bike like yours, we use to swap bikes at times when on a ride and we both came to the same conclusion - what we needed was a bike that went and handled like his on the open road but would change into the appearance and sound of mine when you rode into town (the chick-magnet thing!)

[wkid_one]

Um - they are around - they are called sportsbikes, esp the V'Twins??

Try Ducati, Cagiva, TLR, TLS, VTR, Benelli, MV etc etc, R1, GSXR, 954...

 

 

 

[Lou Girardin]

Did that sound like a Harley owner wavering? Shurely not.
Lou

[Jackrat]

Thirty years of driving,an riding and Iv,e never had a speeding ticket.Got one for careless driving once,an I still reckon he was wrong,but try telling that to the judge.Speed cameras,Couldn,t care less,They only catch those who don,t use their heads.Iv,e ridden in two other countrys with heaps more Cameras than NZ an didn,t get pinged there ether.Cameras cause crashs,Hmmmmm, Can cheak my speed constantly without crashing,Like speed but don,t over do it,Take responsibility for my own actions. How fast do you need to go,Ever heard of a track day.Choose your time an place,Hmmmmmm,Thirty years and not one speeding ticket.Somebody must be doing something wrong,
It,s not me, Aye!!:rolleyes:

[jrandom]

Originally posted by wkid_one
Um - they are around - they are called sportsbikes, esp the V'Twins??

Your Average Kiwi Chick wouldn't know the difference between a V twin, a flat six and a Wankel rotary.

No... there's three types.

(a) the type that likes cruisers, who may or may not spurn you when they realise that your bike is actually made by a Japanese manufacturer instead of the One True Motor Company. This lot tend to smoke heavily and live in West Auckland or south of the civilisation line (aka the Bombays). They are also generally examples to the contrary of my assertion above about AKCs and mechanical knowledge.

(b) the type that likes loads of shiny plastic. 996s or MV Agusta F4s (mmmmm...) are de rigour here if you want to pull true class. Once again, Japanese manufacturers are less than ideal, although you may scrape into favour with the appropriate GXSCRBYZXwhatever if she's not too picky and you're reasonably charming with your helmet off.

(c) the ones who would like bikes if they let themselves, but are convinced that they're Too Dangerous. Identification of these is occasionally difficult, as they can masquerade as types (a) or (b) when currying favour pre-getting-their-hooks-in.

[aff-man]

WELL:done:  are you speaking from experience:p

[jrandom]

Originally posted by aff-man
WELL:done:  are you speaking from experience:p

wouldn't admit it if I was, now, would I? :whistle:

[marty]

so how is the fxr at picking up chix?

[marty]

the words - 'i have a sexy japanese screamer' doesn't quite sound the same as (lowers voice) 'i ride an italian motorbike and wear black leather grrrrrrrr.........'

[Big Dog]

Originally posted by jrandom
Your Average Kiwi Chick wouldn't know the difference between a V twin, a flat six and a Wankel rotary.

No... there's three types.

You forgot...
D) Secretly likes bikes, wants a Ducati, can actually tell the difference between a Italian twin and a Jappa without needing to read the "label". Won't admit to liking bikes to anyone who does not ride for fear of being labelled a "Westie". Has ridden a bike before though mysteriously all her stories end in "...then I crashed". Easily identified on the outskirts of biker groups telling everyone how much she wants to ride but won't get off her a$%^ to get her license for fear people will laugh at her 250cc.
Aka girlfriend who keeps trying to get you to go faster / let her start the bike but goes to events etc in a car.

[scumdog]

Hmmm, for fear of being labelled a "Westie"? I thought anyone would be proud to be a "Westie!!!! - and we don't even have them down here.
And then theres my doris, Chrissie-Bimbo, has her full bike licence, "borrows" the Sporty when she feels like it (and I'm not there) and goes to all the rallies/rides with me, knows a bit about bikes (mainly H-D due to my brainwashing) and is a far better pillion and tent sharer than any of you overweight, hairy, over testosterone'd riders that seem to predominate this site! :D

[wkid_one]

Originally posted by jrandom
No... there's three types.

(a) the type that likes cruisers, who may or may not spurn you when they realise that your bike is actually made by a Japanese manufacturer instead of the One True Motor Company. This lot tend to smoke heavily and live in West Auckland or south of the civilisation line (aka the Bombays). They are also generally examples to the contrary of my assertion above about AKCs and mechanical knowledge.

(b) the type that likes loads of shiny plastic. 996s or MV Agusta F4s (mmmmm...) are de rigour here if you want to pull true class. Once again, Japanese manufacturers are less than ideal, although you may scrape into favour with the appropriate GXSCRBYZXwhatever if she's not too picky and you're reasonably charming with your helmet off.

(c) the ones who would like bikes if they let themselves, but are convinced that they're Too Dangerous. Identification of these is occasionally difficult, as they can masquerade as types (a) or (b) when currying favour pre-getting-their-hooks-in.

As for option A - will go for B thanks.

I can honestly say - it is the sound that will get there attention first if you are rolling through a city/town/hamlet/village - TLR/VTR are good for this. 

As for the Japanese argument - when the 'fairer sex' I am interested in stop showing an interest in the R1 - I'll think about it.  You argument about twin v 4 etc applies here as well - they know no different - and being female base the decision to like/dislike purely on looks alone (general stereotype - as this also applies to the noob guy as well)

As for a Harley being a chick magnet.....hmmm

[Jackrat]

Well I,m a westie and my wife can ride as well as most guys.
She can tell the diff, between most of em, too.Probably because she has ridden all mine as well as her own.Susuki,Honda,Yamaha,
Triumph,HD,She didn,t like the Duke,Don,t like me XR,to tall,good!!
I guess they just breed em, stupid where some of you guys come from,Or is that Birds of a feather hang together. :niceone: :done:

[georgedubyabush]

Originally posted by wkid_one


As for a Harley being a chick magnet.....hmmm

When those protesting porn stars pillioned down Queen Street, what were they on again to get maximum attention???

[jrandom]

Originally posted by marty
so how is the fxr at picking up chix?

bwahahahahahahaha!

I wouldn't have a clue, TBH