Drugs - UK v Holland

[Grahameeboy]

In the light of the recent shooting something interesting...is this the solution?:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2002/feb/24/drugsandalcohol.davidrose

[Genestho]

Myself, I'd like to see the research and hard facts, not an article.
I couldnt base a decision on anything but...

But.... 85% of inmates are alcohol and/or drug dependant, quite clearly there is an issue out there, yes we know the stuff is accessible inside, it's quite likely there's an endless cycle.

However what I also know for a fact, is that there is minimal rehabilitation resources available...

I know the Govt are looking into rehabilitation options, because we have so many drug and alcohol fueled problems in our society
There's a myriad of lower level "stories" that don't make the media - for
obvious reasons.

To quote something in this article...


"This is a social problem, not a criminal one, and the whole of society has to tackle it - not leave it to the police on their own".

No and Know, are indeed two different roads to take.

Anyone know what's happened to the state in Aus that has regulated cannibas, with an allowance for growing plants for personal usage?

The argument here becomes, does pot lead to harder drugs, and by regulating it, will it lead all kids straight to harder drugs? Would it reduce drug related crime and harm?

What is the actual impact on society? We know the current impact as it now stands in our society.

[The Stranger]

In the light of the recent shooting something interesting...is this the solution?:



On what basis should we legalise (or otherwise condone) something that may cause harm to others?

[PrincessBandit]

I'm not sure that just letting it be "society's problem" to deal with is any better an option. In fact it could be considerably worse. If drugs were no longer on the police agenda then yes, their workload would be a lot lighter, but would that make our country a safer place to live in? I think not.

I'd much rather it be a police matter to deal with. Allowing society to be responsible for dealing with drug issues would most likely lead to vigilante enforcers. Then the police would be going after citizens who were dealing inappropriately with dealers, users, manufacturers etc.

Holland has a plethora of social and criminal issues to deal with and I for one am not convinced that the liberal Dutch offer any better solution to the drug culture....

My 2c worth

[Grahameeboy]

On what basis should we legalise (or otherwise condone) something that may cause harm to others?

Guess we won't know unless we try it...who knows...does the fact that it is illegal make it more of a temptation? Would it just become a social activity like smoking or drinking is...taxable like smoking...smokers argue that they are entitled to health care because their taxes go towards health....so could the same apply to drug users...I mean nicotine is one of the most addictive drugs around and causes more deaths than drugs do yet smoking is legal...so does "harm".

Sometimes I think society is a hypocrite to itself..

You can but cigarettes even though it has a Govt. health warning saying "smoking kills"...the Govt allows you to buy a motorbike capable of exceeding the speed limit but you get fined for breaking the speed limit because "speed kills"...you can buy a gun which "can kill".......but you cannot buy drugs because it harms your health "drugs kill"...

Strange society if you ask me.

[CookMySock]

The shooting being related to weed is unfortunate. The reality is more like, the bloke was a ticking time bomb well before weed was an issue.

I think there is a big difference between responsible and occasional users of weed, and regular users of hard drugs. I doubt that any person can have a normal life after one time on heroin, yet a few tokes with other activities has little or no short or long term consequences.

I think home users with a plant or three should be ignored. Thats enough weed for them to share a J or three on the weekends. That removes them from the criminally dangerous side of the drugs scene, and makes regulating its' use their own problem, just as it would be with alcohol or overeating.

But hard drugs - I think thats a different thing. Leave it heavily outlawed.

Steve

[James Deuce]

In NZ no one cares until it affects them personally.

Anyone who offers to help anyone else is a softcock and the "victim" should just harden up.

In NZ anything that deviates from an arbitray social "norm" is feared and persecuted.

Drink yourself into a coma. That's cool.

Smoke a bit of weed and fall asleep in the corner. Oh NO! That soul is headed for "hard drug use".

The argument and counter argument invariably end up so circular and emotive (Bit like religion really. No, a LOT like religion) that personal choice and responsibility end up being removed from the individual, either by legislation or modification of socially acceptable behaviour. 25 years ago, a smoker would have laughed in your face, probably expelling a cloud of blue smoke directly into your mug in the process if you'd said they'd be standing outside to smoke a fag at morning tea time.

No one has any answers. There are no right ones. I'm fairly certain that I'll still be alive when trans fats and processed sugar are illegal and Fiji will be doing a stonking trade in illegal pork crackling and sugar cane. I know at some point my driver's license will be permanently removed. The attitude that road deaths are an acceptable part of a working economy is slowly changing.

Drug use is much less of a problem than the average Kiwi's diet, and addiction to gadgets that require the use of metals like tantalum. There's a 6 year old at the bottom of an unstabilised open cast mine in Central Africa digging up the stuff they make the capacitors for your cellphone from.

That's a "social" problem that can be fixed easily. You don't need an iPod, and iPhone, any electronic gadget really. You need a washing machine, a stove, insulation for your house, and heating.

Drugs are a tiny problem compared to the socially isolated "society" we've constructed, based on "privacy" and "liberty". We have neither of those things and little respect for each as a result, hence our propensity for publicly denouncing other people's perceived shortcomings, "shortcomings" based on a narrow set of legislation derived from a couple of Millenia of the most rapacious culture in history.

The divisive HD vs Everything else mindset displayed from time to time on KB as an example of that. If you can own a GSXR1000 and ride it as meant, then the next week ride an FXDC as meant and enjoy both equally, then you're the sort of mentally flexible person who can prosper in any society.

The "war" on drugs is as destined to fail as the "war" on HD, simply because of the essentially mutable human condition. Things change.

[SS90]

I'm not sure that just letting it be "society's problem" to deal with is any better an option. In fact it could be considerably worse. If drugs were no longer on the police agenda then yes, their workload would be a lot lighter, but would that make our country a safer place to live in? I think not.

I'd much rather it be a police matter to deal with. Allowing society to be responsible for dealing with drug issues would most likely lead to vigilante enforcers. Then the police would be going after citizens who were dealing inappropriately with dealers, users, manufacturers etc.

Holland has a plethora of social and criminal issues to deal with and I for one am not convinced that the liberal Dutch offer any better solution to the drug culture....

My 2c worth

The interesting thing I have noticed, (having spent reasonable time in both these parts of Europe) Is, like the article mentions, the problem of drugs seems to be worse in England.

My opinion is the major difference in the two countries society seems to be education.

Some of the most uneducated people I have met in my life where in England, whereas, the Dutch (infact most all of the Central Europeans (Dutch, French, German) seemed to be extremely well educated in comparison.

Most people from central Europe speak several languages....and their education systems are really "hard core"

Now, I am not saying that is the reason that the drugs are a bigger problem in England, (they are a problem everywhere), but it just makes me wonder if some countries paying so much attention to education (particularly the Socialist countries) has a much broader social effect than you would expect.

Just a thought.

[The Stranger]

Guess we won't know unless we try it...who knows...does the fact that it is illegal make it more of a temptation? Would it just become a social activity like smoking or drinking is...taxable like smoking...smokers argue that they are entitled to health care because their taxes go towards health....so could the same apply to drug users...I mean nicotine is one of the most addictive drugs around and causes more deaths than drugs do yet smoking is legal...so does "harm".

Sometimes I think society is a hypocrite to itself..

You can but cigarettes even though it has a Govt. health warning saying "smoking kills"...the Govt allows you to buy a motorbike capable of exceeding the speed limit but you get fined for breaking the speed limit because "speed kills"...you can buy a gun which "can kill".......but you cannot buy drugs because it harms your health "drugs kill"...

Strange society if you ask me.

Yeah, the argument that something bad being legal justifies something else bad doesn't really hold water does it? Perhaps the answer should be to ban all "bad" things instead.
And what of say kiddie porn? Clearly the majority of society think that is bad, but there are those who believe it is acceptable - they must as if they didn't no one would produce this stuff and/or be caught with it. So should we legalise this also?
Clearly a rhetorical question, however legalising something just because some in society want, yearn for or crave something doesn't make sense - to me. As it doesn't make sense changing the argument to one of tobacco or alcohol.

NOT saying it wont work, not arguing against drugs, but I really would like to know the criteria for condoning something that apparently has little or no benefit to society AND often causes significant harm.

[awayatc]

few differences between poms and clogs....

Wooden footwear vs wooden headgear one of the more obvious ones....

[YellowDog]

It sounds like whay you are saying here is that society will always have a drug dependent community of some kind. If you legitimise this community it will be easier to monitor and control it.

I don't agree with this at all. I have many friends whom are dependent upon Canabis and other soft drugs. Some have no issues with Canabis and it is purely recreational, others have strong mood swings and cannot manage without.

To legalise something that can have unpredictable side effects is very dangerous and I would be totally against it.

[James Deuce]

have strong mood swings and cannot manage without.

To legalise something that can have unpredictable side effects is very dangerous and I would be totally against it.

mmmmmmpf - Alcohol, "Prozac", amitriptyline

[SixPackBack]

The difference between Holland and England is simple. Most of the strong English stock left to set-up the States, Aussie, NZ etc.
Only retards left there now!

[scumdog]

The difference between Holland and England is simple. Most of the strong English stock left to set-up the States, Aussie, NZ etc.
Only retards left there now!


And imports from the near and middle east....

[James Deuce]

The difference between Holland and England is simple. Most of the strong English stock left to set-up the States, Aussie, NZ etc.
Only retards left there now!

I reckon the place retards people. They even got Madonna. She said she wanted to be more British.

1. She's a Solo Mum.
2. She's been divorced twice.
3. She has 3 kids with different fathers.
4. One of the kids is black.

Job done! Retarded British Solo Mum.

[Laxi]

as the article says "there is no war on drugs in holland", but the mistake people make is to believe that drugs are legal there, there never was "legalisation" because as the police have said there, remove the laws and you remove the ability to control the problem side, what they do have however is police discretion (and a police force that uses it well), the police do not harrass the person sitting in a cafe with a coffee and a smoke after work, how ever they do have a law there to back them up when there is trouble (much like police using public disorder laws to control drunks), and the police in holland will and do prosecute harder drugs and growers/couriers.

[rachprice]

I think the Dutch approach to education on drugs is the way to go!

[RantyDave]

I doubt that any person can have a normal life after one time on heroin, yet a few tokes with other activities has little or no short or long term consequences.
And this is it. It's not "drugs are bad, mmmkay" it's "some drugs are really really fucking bad for you and others are not" followed by whole pile of education on what's what and why.

Heroin is very very bad news. There are a few people out there living with long term heroin habits, but they're few and those very few put an awful lot of cash into the hands of criminals who then, well, more or less kill teenagers. And it is "one" (as in, count them, one) time on Heroin too.

Heroin dealers should be shot through the forehead the first time they're caught. Right between the eyes, no blindfold, put it on YouTube as a warning to others, go totally Khmer Rouge on their sorry arses.

Bizarrely I'd like to see drug education extend to the crap the pharmaceutical industry turfs out too. Read this (http://paxilfree.org/the-brain-zaps/) and feel sick - there are hundreds of stories like that.

Oh. Ugh. UHGGHGH! I'm not going to think about it any more. Stupid fucking society, we behave like Neanderthals. At least I don't live in the UK.

Dave

[RantyDave]

I know at some point my driver's license will be permanently removed.
Hopefully when you're in your seventies and can't get a thought from one side of your brain to the other in under five seconds. They might be senior citizens, but it doesn't mean they should be driving any more than the legally blind should.

Dave

[MSTRS]

Hopefully when you're in your seventies and can't get a thought from one side of your brain to the other in under five seconds. They might be senior citizens, but it doesn't mean they should be driving any more than the legally blind should.

Dave

Plenty like that of all ages. And many of them right here in KB's hallowed halls. Senior citizens would be turning in their armchairs that you could think that the problem of slow thought is theirs alone...

[candor]

However what I also know for a fact, is that there is minimal rehabilitation resources available...

Anyone know what's happened to the state in Aus that has regulated cannibas, with an allowance for growing plants for personal usage?

The argument here becomes, does pot lead to harder drugs, and by regulating it, will it lead all kids straight to harder drugs? Would it reduce drug related crime and harm?

In Oz tolerance with pot has made little difference except a rise in use by young males with presumably knock on effects in mental health / car crashes and some violent crime.

People given reduced fines for attending education has resulted in low uptake of education - treatment is what is really the need regardless and thats not supplied as noone takes pot harms seriously due to years of jokey good press. Check Herald approach but the Aotearoa Legalise pot party is an advertiser.

The fact I know - from working in forensic psychiatry and with hundreds of murderers hands on is that cannabis use is often a very salient factor - as in the latest spree killing. It raises paranoia while reducing inhibitions (same as P) in people with sociopathic mindsets (Jan police killer and attempted neighbour killer some time later qualifies per al reports of his character), and increases psychosis in those with underlying mental illnesses. Treated schizophrenia + drugs that add to paranoia = danger.

Legalising is no answer, decrim may help make it easier for those with issues to seek help - but typically they won't. Compulsory treatment as in days of old is most successful but our liberal namby pamby values and the evil bill o frights act kind of militate against this getting traction. Though Sabin and others are working toward this. Hoping compulsory treatment is a topic at the Sensible Sentencing conference coming up.

[Sidewinder]

herd its a good time to go pig shooting in napier atm tho!

[Ocean1]

Job done! Retarded British Solo Mum.

Yeah. You don't need to look quite so far to see that cycle either.

I know the answer to this one, I just can't be fucked enunciating it.

Brief shot: Get a life. Give your kids one too.

[Skyryder]

They never outlawed glue sniffing and how many of them do we see on the streets now?


Skyryder

[CookMySock]

In Oz tolerance with pot has made little difference except a rise in use by young males with presumably knock on effects in mental health / car crashes and some violent crime.That is hardly a good basis for a casual opinion, let alone a well considered one.


The fact I know - from working in forensic psychiatry and with hundreds of murderers hands on is that cannabis use is often a very salient factor - as in the latest spree killing. It raises paranoia while reducing inhibitions (same as P) in people with sociopathic mindsets (Jan police killer and attempted neighbour killer some time later qualifies per al reports of his character), and increases psychosis in those with underlying mental illnesses. Treated schizophrenia + drugs that add to paranoia = danger. That it is 'salient' does not even suggest it is a contributing factor, just that is often in common. So which way around is it? That dope smokers are likely candidates for this type of behaviour, or that people who behave this way are likely candidates to smoke dope? From your description above, it seems more like those with dangerous tendencies are predisposed to smoke dope, than the other way around.


Compulsory treatment as in days of old is most successful but our liberal namby pamby values and the evil bill o frights act kind of militate against this getting traction. Though Sabin and others are working toward this. Hoping compulsory treatment is a topic at the Sensible Sentencing conference coming up.Agreed. No one likes being treated, but thats too bad - it's like getting a speeding ticket. Once they are a little more settled, maybe they will be able to enjoy a toke again without having a wee flip-out.

Steve

[YellowDog]

Dutch people don't agree and object to their country being prostituted in this way.

The retarded British and many others spend $50 to fly to Amsterdam to spend a couple of brainless days in Dutch coffee houses. These places are legal and licensed to sell soft drugs to be consumed on the premises.

The licensing of such establisments is a direct result of the government's attempt to take control of an out of control problem that was created by being too soft on drug crime.

Not the way to go.

[CookMySock]

Dutch people don't agree and object to their country being prostituted in this way.How could this possibly affect the "dutch people" or their country?


The retarded British and many others spend $50 to fly to Amsterdam to spend a couple of brainless days in Dutch coffee houses. These places are legal and licensed to sell soft drugs to be consumed on the premises.Yeah but thats normal when you get a difference in law or culture just across a border. It's hardly fair to label the people retarded - its just an amusing once-off thing for them to do. Viz, its legal to distill your own spirits in NZ, and not in the US. For certain americans, it would be legal and fun, to sit in the kiwi bush next to their still - shotgun across their lap and distill all they bloody like. Conversely, the reverse is true regarding handguns. I think it would be bloody funny to wander around with a pistol down my pants - a perfectly legal activity in many parts of the US, but a jailable offence here.

Steve

[RantyDave]

In Oz tolerance with pot has made little difference except a rise in use by young males with presumably knock on effects in mental health / car crashes and some violent crime.
Where the key word is "presumably". Like, I am a parent and presumably don't ride a motorcycle.

I'm not going to deny the link to mental health issues though. But then the link between mental health problems and, say, poverty is stronger. Or workplace stress. Or having children. Or spending too long arguing on the Internet.

treatment is what is really the need
Treatment?

The fact I know - from working in forensic psychiatry and with hundreds of murderers hands on
Hundreds of murderers? Where in hell (literally) have you found hundreds of murderers?

It raises paranoia while reducing inhibitions (same as P) in people with sociopathic mindsets
In people with sociopathic mindsets. You may be pleased to hear that is a surprisingly low percentage of the population.

Compulsory treatment as in days of old is most successful but our liberal namby pamby values and the evil bill o frights act kind of militate against this getting traction.
That word, again. In days of old homosexuals had compulsory treatment. A hundred years or so ago it was people with black skin. Before that the Spanish inquisition laid down some compulsory treatment too. In fifty years time it might be people with blue eyes, or people who give children unpasteurised cows milk, or anyone who has expressed an interest in joining the civil service. In the UK, many years ago, an angry mob burned down a paediatrician's house, thinking it was a pedophile's house. My point is that it's pretty arbitrary what it is the public decides needs compulsory treatment and that one day it might be you that the evil bill of rights is protecting.

Hoping compulsory treatment is a topic at the Sensible Sentencing conference coming up.
Oh, the Sensible Sentencing Trust are hoping to promote themselves into the angry clueless men with pitchforks trust, are they?

OMG, that's such a good idea. I'm going to set up a stand selling pitchforks outside.

Dave

[Genestho]

Ah yes, perhaps you're right Ranty Dave.

Best we leave it to the, what was it? "Armchair warriors" to attempt to fix everything with dreamy illusions such as bullets, and capital punishment.

You may not understand but SST is a group of people affected by crime such as this thread alludes to.

Perhaps you'd prefer it if SST, Shut up and bugger off.
Until crimes such as the "napier siege" are addressed at many levels SST continues to grow.

I think I could quite easily turn your comment around, and I'm gonna.

I hope the Bill of Rights, doesn't fail you as systematic failures within the Justice Joke have failed us.
If one of the "victims" of the siege was a family member of yours, or the coppers whose body couldnt be retrieved - your brother? Would you be chuffed?
Nah - didn't think so.

Goodluck with that dude, you're a long time dead.

And if you have better ideas than SST?
For goodness sake! Please share!!

I invite you to do something, instead of attacking others that have experienced the arse-end reality of these types of crimes.
Go do something productive with your pitchfork stand will you?

[Usarka]

Morphine and guiness taste good. Oh no's im an illegalerer.

[candor]

That it is 'salient' does not even suggest it is a contributing factor, just that is often in common. So which way around is it? That dope smokers are likely candidates for this type of behaviour, or that people who behave this way are likely candidates to smoke dope?
Steve

By salient I meant contributing. It is not one way round it is both ways round in a vicious circle. The antisocial are more likely to smoke dope (its in diagnostic criteria for sociopaths DSM4) and the dope is likely to cause them to decompensate and wreak havoc. Plenty studies support this.

Where in hell I found hundreds of murderers - in long stay psych wards, in prisons, in community rehabs, in drug /alcohol treatment facilities and initially in work experience in assessing offenders via courts.
Over 20 years work round the country I have met and known quite well literally in the hundreds.

And sociopaths and narcissists are not such a small part of the population as you think. Vastly underdagnosed and may go up to 5% in our population. Start looking over your shoulder - there are more if less dramatic Jans out there. I was part of the crew that unwillingly released them to the community 1980s and could even tell you the childs play areas the high threat ones hang out at.

[awayatc]

Drug and alcohol testing could prevent some chemicaly altered brains making devastating decisions.....

I would suggest we start at the Beehive.....

[RantyDave]

Until crimes such as the "napier siege" are addressed at many levels SST continues to grow.
Oh ffs, do you really think that man considered the legal implications of pulling the trigger before he did so? No. It was "Pigs! I am Rambo! BANG!". That he took his own life afterwards indicates that the full implications of his actions did, eventually, sink in and that he was going to be on the receiving end of a very thorough arse-kicking indeed.

But don't get me wrong. I don't understand why we take proper hardened nutcases, stick them inside with other proper hardened nutcases for a few years and expect them to come out as anything other than still proper hardened nutcases. Maybe sometimes they can be rehabilitated. Maybe we need to have "a better idea" of what to do with the ones that can't. And I do think New Zealand has ludicrously light sentences for certain kinds of crimes - why, for instance, are rapist policemen ever let out? And why can't we put the bitches to work while they're in there?

The rest of your post was a thought crime for which you'll do twenty years in a gulag. We will be kicking your door down at 3am. Don't bother packing.

Dave

[RantyDave]

The antisocial are more likely to smoke dope (its in diagnostic criteria for sociopaths DSM4)
I'm sorry, first it was hundreds of murderers and now it's smoking dope being one of the diagnostic criteria for sociopathy. There were no sociopaths before dope? Are you telling me Hitler must have enjoyed a toke every now and then because otherwise he wasn't a sociopath?

Does that count as a Godwin?

Dave

[Genestho]

Oh ffs, do you really think that man considered the legal implications of pulling the trigger before he did so? No. It was "Pigs! I am Rambo! BANG!". That he took his own life afterwards indicates that the full implications of his actions did, eventually, sink in and that he was going to be on the receiving end of a very thorough arse-kicking indeed.

Oh no I agree Dave!

But don't get me wrong. I don't understand why we take proper hardened nutcases, stick them inside with other proper hardened nutcases for a few years and expect them to come out as anything other than still proper hardened nutcases. Maybe sometimes they can be rehabilitated. Maybe we need to have "a better idea" of what to do with the ones that can't. And I do think New Zealand has ludicrously light sentences for certain kinds of crimes - why, for instance, are rapist policemen ever let out? And why can't we put the bitches to work while they're in there?

You're asking the wrong person these questions, as I and others, ask the same questions, I, have only questions too..
The rest of your post was a "thought" crime for which you'll do twenty years in a gulag. We will be kicking your door down at 3am. Don't bother packing.

Dave


Lol, sweet as, Ranty Dave ;)

[candor]

now it's smoking dope being one of the diagnostic criteria for sociopathy. There were no sociopaths before dope? Are you telling me Hitler must have enjoyed a toke every now and then because otherwise he wasn't a sociopath?


Why is your "thinking" continually all or nothing. Sociopaths need not meet all of the diagnostic criteria - just a majority. I think we've just outed NZs biggest liberal. When the murderer comes shall you turn the other cheek - wish him a good rehab program then offer up your extended family as well. Wouldn't surprise me at the rate your spouting

[Bikernereid]

On what basis should we legalise (or otherwise condone) something that may cause harm to others?

Who smokes fags and/or drinks alcohol and/or drives a car or rides a motorbike? All dangerous and all legal!!

[Bikernereid]

Even when I gave various addicts the entire selection of spider webs to guess which drug had which affect they found it difficult to identify which drugs cause which web. What is even more interesting is that none of them got the caffeine spider web they all thought it was created be a p or crack spider.

And caffeine is legal.

[James Deuce]

Don't you be messing with caffeine.

[The Stranger]

Who smokes fags and/or drinks alcohol and/or drives a car or rides a motorbike? All dangerous and all legal!!

So this is your basis for legalising or condoning a dangerous past time?
Were that so and were it applied to all such past times heaven help us.

Virtually anything can be dangerous. So I accept a poor choice of words in my initial post, I feel my second to more accurately reflect my intent.
However at least some of those things have a valid use in society - for example transport. Given that anything can be dangerous then it makes sense that the "dangerous" element is secondary and the practise be legalised in many cases.
However one wonders at the need filled by dope or hard drugs (but for addiction).
Also, it is perhaps pertinent that both alcohol and tobacco pre-existed the knowledge of the real dangers associated therewith. To "undo" tradition, national economies, a way of life, livelihoods and industries has a far greater impact. Perhaps best we don't go there in the first place.

I really don't believe that "me too" constitutes sound rationale.

[jonbuoy]

Theres also a political party in Holland that wants to lower the legal age of consent to 12 and legalise bestiality. You think thats a great idea too? Many dutch people think its a huge mistake to be so slack on drug use.

[CookMySock]

Theres also a political party in Holland that wants to lower the legal age of consent to 12 and legalise bestiality.Right, thats it - I'm going Dutch! :laugh:

Steve

[gatch]

Drugs are fuck all, whether they're illegal or not is nearly irrelevant, they are still going to be sold, bought and used. Like the locusts, you will never rid society of them.

What amazes me is that cigarettes are legal and will remain legal, when these kill by far and wide more people than every single illegal drug put together (and probably multiplyed). They cause just about every kind of cancer, they kill people just by being near smokers, they fuck up your sperm and eggs leading to fucked up kids, poor people spend alot of coin on smokes instead of food and shoes and rent, just like any other drug addict they turn other wise reasonable people into right cunts if they can't get their hands on them, still legal..

Think for a second how many people you know of that are dead/fucked up from smoking or alcohol related incidents compared to how many you know in the same circumstance from illegal drug mis-use.

Like I said, drugs are fuck all, if there is a band wagon to be followed it should be the war on smoking and drinking.

[Bikernereid]

Drugs are fuck all, whether they're illegal or not is nearly irrelevant, they are still going to be sold, bought and used. Like the locusts, you will never rid society of them.

What amazes me is that cigarettes are legal and will remain legal, when these kill by far and wide more people than every single illegal drug put together (and probably multiplyed). They cause just about every kind of cancer, they kill people just by being near smokers, they fuck up your sperm and eggs leading to fucked up kids, poor people spend alot of coin on smokes instead of food and shoes and rent, just like any other drug addict they turn other wise reasonable people into right cunts if they can't get their hands on them, still legal..

Think for a second how many people you know of that are dead/fucked up from smoking or alcohol related incidents compared to how many you know in the same circumstance from illegal drug mis-use.

Like I said, drugs are fuck all, if there is a band wagon to be followed it should be the war on smoking and drinking.

Have tried a number of things in my time and by far the hardest to give up was fags!!! They are evil and cost our societies a fortune in health care, time off work etc. There is no reason why governments couldn't de-legalise them if they really wanted to but why should they when the tobacco comanies have so much power and when politicians can be on their boards. How many people die from drug related issues compared to those related to alcohol. How much crime is alcohol related compared to those related to alcohol?

[The Stranger]

Have tried a number of things in my time and by far the hardest to give up was fags!!! They are evil and cost our societies a fortune in health care, time off work etc.

Good on ya for giving up those aids infested Honda riders.

[SS90]

How could this possibly affect the "dutch people" or their country?


Steve

I am unsure if you have spent time in the "Nederlands" but, from my experience, it seems to me that indeed the Dutch are a little ashamed of Amsterdam (and it's Prostitution/drug laws)

I personally think it's a great thing, LEGALLY sitting in a Coffee shop doing just what millions have people have done before, but I just wonder how I would feel about it if I saw it every day, and tourists FLOCKED to your home town every day "Just to get wasted"

Amsterdam has some beautiful churches (I'm not christian, but I enjoyed seeing these buildings), and it seems that so few people actually get to appreciate them.

[Ocean1]

I am unsure if you have spent time in the "Nederlands" but, from my experience, it seems to me that indeed the Dutch are a little ashamed of Amsterdam

The thing that pissed most of 'em off some time ago was the used needles littering those churchyards etc.

[alanzs]

The Governor of California has just said that he thinks the discussion about taxing cannabis' time has come. The figure they could get a few BILLION dollars in revenues by taxing the medical pot that is sold throughout the state.

End prohibition - freedom is the issue!

[alanzs]

The thing that pissed most of 'em off some time ago was the used needles littering those churchyards etc.

My Dutch friends say that what they are embarrassed about, in general, are all the drunken poms that come over. If you've ever been in the red light district in Amsterdam on a Saturday night, you'll understand. Drunks all over, generally acting like idiots.

[awayatc]

you sort of have to put up with your own misfits and losers.......
That's why it got taken out of the criminal arena....
Just a nuisance issue a country has got to deal with....
Decriminalisation eliminates the need for criminal activities to obtain the drugs.

Drawback is the drug tourism from the rest of Europe.....
Holland now has to cope with those losers to.....

[Laxi]

Theres also a political party in Holland that wants to lower the legal age of consent to 12 and legalise bestiality. You think thats a great idea too? Many dutch people think its a huge mistake to be so slack on drug use.

umm... the age of consent has been 12 for about 20 years

[Ocean1]

If you've ever been in the red light district in Amsterdam on a Saturday night, you'll understand. Drunks all over, generally acting like idiots.

It's been a while. And my memory ain't all that lucid around that time, on account of being somewhat drunk and idiotic. I'm sure I didn't embarrasse the locals, though. Well, reasonably sure.

[SS90]

It's been a while. And my memory ain't all that lucid around that time, on account of being somewhat drunk and idiotic. I'm sure I didn't embarrasse the locals, though. Well, reasonably sure.

Yea, it's kind of like "they have seen it all before"

It's kind of a weird place, everything closes at 11 PM, and it's all over! (till the next day)

Walk 10 minutes out of the city centre, and it's quite a different place.

The the further you are away from the red light district, the more locals you meet......

That's nicer!