What you can do at a bike crash scene

[FROSTY]

PLEASE COULD THE EMS STAFF POST THEIR OPINIONS.

Folks I am FAR from a medical or accident scene expert. Im hoping to plagerise the experts
I TOTALLY DEFER TO THE ACTUAL EXPERTS--AMBULANCE STAFF,police or fire service
What I would like to do or have done here is create a thread as a sticky with clear instruction on what to do at a motorcycle crash scene.
Im thinking that a completely new thread could be made or this origonal post modified once expert advice is given


I'll get the ball rolling
Before actually doing ANYTHING --Look the scene over- Use this oporunity to CALM DOWN (you wouldn't be human if you diddn't get at least a bit wound up about a freind being hurt)
Decide what has the highest prioroty -Patient,traffic control or hazard management.
Im putting events in order according to my opinion of their urgency in the "perfect world" -- EVERY situation is different so dont get too hung up on the order.
1) KEEP YOURSELF SAFE and stay calm --you are no use to anyone if you become the next victim.
2) Warn other traffic of the accident scene so they dont add to the damage or damage themselves.
Again STAY SAFE
3) in the ideal world where all has gone to plan now you can Move to the actual accident scene
A)ensure external danger to the victim/victims is removed--Ie pick a bike up if its fuel is running down the road or move the victim if they are going to get run over by a semi trailer etc. If you absolutely have to move the victim Do it ONCE
Lift/carry them in as close to their original position as you can, while the recovery position works, moving them and trying to get them into it could inflict more damage, potentially fatal damage.
###In my opinion if the bike or bikes pose no danger to the victims then picking them up is very low priority.
B)Making sure the victim or victims are breathing and any major bleeds are stopped.
--Dealing with multiple victims --
go to the quietest one first
If you can make noise you're alive enough to complain.
4) Contact the EMS with clear instructions as to the precise location,the nature of the accident, the number of victims AND the severity of injuries. I cannot emphasise how important Clear precise information is to these folks .
5) Where possible stay with the victim. Comfort them,let them know EMS are coming.

6) once all of the above is taken care of then see what you can do to make the victim more comfortable and warm.Use what you have available-a jacket,a car seat rug or similar . Talk to them, tell them help is coming, ask if they are cold? if there was anyone else with them? while they are able to talk, information can be vital, for instance, are they diabetic? are they haemophiliac? are they allergic to treatment drugs such as morphine/penicillin?
The experts talk about putting the victim into the recovery position.
My theory on that one is if it aint broke dont fix it. -not that I dont wanna help but if they"re not in danger of getting run over by a semi or fried by electric wires They are breathing,hearts beating and they aint gonna bleed out I dont wanna move em. If you absolutely have to move them.Do it ONCE!
7)Once all the above is done, without moving them, or removing the helmet, see if you can speak to them, start to assess THE NON LIFE THREATENING injuries, This can save the EMS some time and help them to decide which victim to deal with first.
8) If its not impeding breathing and theres no odvious head trauma dont take the helmet off but DO undo the chinstrap.leave it on for trained personnel to remove! The lid lining offers a not too bad and cleanish pillow and keeps the head warm also you could cause more damage The lid itself also provides a few clues to possible head trauma --

OF COURSE --all that goes out the window if they are not breathing or blood is running out in rivers from somewhere.
Again--my opinion here DEAD is dead so if they aint breathing a potential broken back or neck wont matter because theyre already dead. Nothing you do can make things worse if you cant get em breathing again or you cant stop a big bleed . Riff Raff has a thread saying how to get a lid off
Do be carefull though .
Remember the basic cpr.--check the airway is clear .....



One bit of advice I got a long time ago was do SOMETHING. even if all you can do is hold their hand.

THeres a lot of variables here folks.
In a group ride you might not be up to dealing with an injured mate--so Go be the guy that stops traffic Your job is just as important because you are protecting your mate on the ground and your mates helping him .
It should go without saying that you DO NOT give the victim anything at all be it food/water or painkillers.
Theres clearly exceptions being an astmatic needing their puffer or a diabetic needing a sugar fix



PLEASE FOLKS HOWSABOUT WE KEEP THIS SERIOUS --COULD ACTUALLY SAVE YOUR LIFE -OR A MATES SOMEDAY.

IM MORE THAN HAPPY IF ANY OF THIS IS BAD ADVICE TO HAVE IT EDITED OR REMOVED BY THE MODERATORS

Could the cynics please piss off -I don't give a shit if its me or someone else that sorts this out -- I just do think its pretty important stuff

[caseye]

Hey Frosty, this is a damn fine idea, there are others here at KB more qualified than you or me I'd guess but hey, here goes, you've covered the important stuff
and, well, my contribution is this.
Like Frosty said 'if it ain't broke don't fix it", so if an accident victim is not in any other! immediate danger and appears to be responding to their surroundings and input from people attending them, then DON'T move them at all.

The "check the quietest ones first" was brilliant advice and absolutely spot on, breathing, clearing airways etc is vital.

A quick, careful running over of hands(yours!) will tell you if there are any compound fractures ( broken bones puncturing through flesh), cuts, puncture wounds or other (embedded objects) which need immediate attention.

Talk to them, tell them help is coming, ask if they are cold? if there was anyone else with them? while they are able to talk, information can be vital, for instance, are they diabetic? are they haemophiliac? are they allergic to treatment drugs such as morphine/penicillin?

If you absolutely have to move them.Do it ONCE!

Lift/carry them in as close to their original position as you can, again, while the recovery position works, moving them and trying to get them into it could inflict more damage, potentially fatal damage.

KEEP ALL HELMETS ON, unless there is no other choice than to remove it.ie: choking.

As always there is more, it may involve multiple riders, it may involve cars/trucks etc and their passengers.
main thing, DON'T PANIC, get help (for you) tell people who will listen! TO go stop,/divert traffic, alert authorities, look for other victims, check vehicles for ignitions still on ( turn em off) and or if able and willing to attend to other victims.
Again as Frosty said "DO SOMETHING"

I hope no one reading this thread now or in the future ever has to put anything that has or will be said into practice!
I would like everyone who reads this thread to remember one thing.
One day it could be you, if the person attending YOU had read this thread or something similar.Like you they'd try and they'd "DO SOMETHING"
No one can ask for more than that.

[Gremlin]

I guess this is more suitable for the track, where severe injury is less likely (lack of objects to collide with)

Once all Frosty says is done, without moving them, or removing the helmet, see if you can speak to them, start to assess injuries, because depending them, moving them could be a very bad idea indeed.

Also be aware that the person can't always tell the real situation, due to adrenaline etc.

Number 1 is keeping yourself safe, number two is other people, common on the road for vehicles coming from either way to be travelling too quick, so important to get out other people/vehicles to warn approaching vehicles to slow down, and you can't be 10m from the incident (not enough time for them to slow down)

Emergency services will generally tell you not to move the people, or at least, they have to me, when I have had to report accidents. It is important to know where you are, so you can give an accurate location for emergency services.

[FROSTY]

I would really like advise from EMS folks on this one.Please let me know if im wrong in anything im saying here --DONER?? Speedie? Riff Raff ?? Firefight etc

[yungatart]

I recently did a First Aid Course and asked the question about removal of helmets. We were told that it is actually very difficult to remove a helmet from an injured person, and takes two to do it.
Their advice was, unless it is immediately life threatening, leave it on for trained personnel to remove!
My only other advice would be to do a First Aid Course.
Somebody needs to take charge, most people will hang back and wait for someone else to do it...make sure you can!

[sunhuntin]

how bout this? DONT give them medicines/drugs thinking it will help, cos it could well kill them. [ie, like dangerousb would try to do] and if you are the victim, refuse all drugs unless offered by ems.

might also be an idea to carry in ones wallet what medications you are on, as if you are out cold, ems might not know that what they give you could react badly with what you are taking.

[FROSTY]

Again folks please could ems staff contribute here -or by PM

[firefighter]

Again folks please could ems staff contribute here -or by PM

1. Secure Scene/Position vehicle in fend-off position
2. Call 111. Ask for FIRE if persons trapped
3. Stop and take a breath, take in scene, be calm
4. If you have rubber gloves put them on
5. Start Basic Triage (if more than one person injured)
6. Administer first aid, loosen collar/helmut strap
7. Keep patients warm/cool
8. Take down notes (use bystanders if available)
9. Ask questions from back of card, write down all answers.
10. Ask their age, name, DOB, address, next of kin, phone number
11. Handover

Do not move anyone unless they're in danger

Do not take off helmut unless CPR required

Keep clothing on unless you need to stop major bleeding.

Then some acronyms on the back of the card:

S-Stop
T-Think
B-Barriers
M-Move

Breathing
Bleeding
Burns
Breaks

Level of conciousness
Alert
Voice induces response
Pain induces response
Unresponsive to stimuli

Head injury
Pupils
Equal
And
Reacting to
Light

PAIN
Provocation
Quality (stabbing, burning, sharp)
Radiation (does injury make another part of body hurt)
Severity (1-10)
Time - (intermittent/constant, when did it start)

Signs/symptoms
Allergies they have
Medications they are on
Past history
Last meal/liquid taken? how long ago?
Events prior

[FROSTY]

Don't get wrapped up in trying to preform a miracle, just do your "Safety ABC."
Mate Im gonna plagerise you outragously--if wot you wrote reads better iLL USE YOUR WORDS

but--THAT last bit I think Im safe in saying the worst thiing to do in an accident is NOTHING

[firefighter]

Mate Im gonna plagerise you outragously--if wot you wrote reads better iLL USE YOUR WORDS

Yeah you pretty much have it all in a nutshell, I just tried to make it simple as a simple thing.

I dunno if it reads better but just trying to go with the KISS theme, if people follow the sequence of events, any experience or training they have will be a bonus.
All Patient care stuff really needs to come from a course, where they can get into proper practise/detail.


but--THAT last bit I think Im safe in saying the worst thiing to do in an accident is NOTHING

Your right there, even if the only doing is calling 111 and protecting the scene, throwing over a blanket and keeping them company then anything else is a bonus.

Good idea putting up the thread. :first:

[FROSTY]

Yea mate--look Im happy to let THIS thread dissapear and have experts create a new one. Im literally just adding ideas as people raise em up then I thought I'd clean it all up so the KISS works. Or as I said No ego on this particualer subject--if the mods wanna come in and choppy choppy Im equally happy
I think it really is that important

[riffer]

Sticking my oar in on behalf of the diabetics...

let's clear up this misconception that when diabetics aren't well it's because they need insulin. You see it's most likely the exact opposite.

You see we insulin dependent diabetics have a bit of a problem metabolising sugar. It tends to stick around in the blood stream. This is because we have a problem with an organ called the pancreas which creates insulin. Insulin is like the "key" which opens the doors in the cells of the body to allow sugar into them to feed them.

So what we do is inject ourselves with insulin to help.

The consequences of too much sugar in the blood are many, but only very rarely do they actually cause us problems in handling machinery or anything like that.

Normal blood sugar is between 4 and 8 millimols per litre. I've personally gone up to 43 millimols and still been rational.

The big problem for diabetics is when the blood sugar level gets TOO LOW. This is called a hypo.

The symptoms - we get shakey, we slur our words and we sound confused. And because our body starts burning ketones, we start excreting acetone in our breath - we smell drunk.

The solution - give us some sugar.

If you give us insulin, what will happen? The blood sugar will get lower - first we lose consciousness, then we stroke, then we die.

Quite quickly.

So if a diabetic has a problem, don't assume we need insulin. You may very well kill us.

[FROSTY]

hey riffer to put it in simple terms- Im better to jam a moro bar in yer gob than shoot ya up with yer insulin pen--is that it ??
or would I be better to feed you coke?--high sugar content n all

[riffer]

You got it in one mate.

SUGAR.

It's hard to judge exactly how much insulin you need because the insulin injected just opens these doorways completely. So if you're doing some high intensity stuff, like riding fast, you'll use up energy faster than you would normall. Say I'm sitting at my desk working. I'll have say 20 units of insulin for a standard two sammies and coffee lunch. Now if I'm riding, I'll only need 12 units. Or maybe only 6.

Woops. I took 12 and now I'm running low. First I know is my head feels a bit fuzzy. Then I've got a major adrenaline rush.

You know when you come into a corner, lean it over and it tightens just as you go under the trees where there's some moss? The bike slides out, you lean like fuck, hold that throttle, and the bike gradualy picks up grip, throws an almighty great wobbly and nearly throws you off. But you save it.

And about 10 seconds later your heart is beating like crazy and your head's a mess.

That's what it feels like when your blood sugar is low.

Except it doesn't stop. Until about ten minutes after you get sugar into yourself.

Anyway, this is starting to get a wee bit off topic. Apologies for that.

[caseye]

Bump, come on you lot, this is gaining some great feedback lets be having those experts, streamlining the thread will work great FROSTY.

[sunhuntin]

riff, there was a kid on an emergency tv show last night who had hypos. he got really stubborn and refused to drink the sugar drinks mixed by the flatmate/family member on instructions from the ambo guy. but, pretty much as soon as hed drunk one, he was a completely different guy.

[FROSTY]

You got it in one mate.

SUGAR.

It's hard to judge exactly how much insulin you need because the insulin injected just opens these doorways completely. So if you're doing some high intensity stuff, like riding fast, you'll use up energy faster than you would normall. Say I'm sitting at my desk working. I'll have say 20 units of insulin for a standard two sammies and coffee lunch. Now if I'm riding, I'll only need 12 units. Or maybe only 6.

Woops. I took 12 and now I'm running low. First I know is my head feels a bit fuzzy. Then I've got a major adrenaline rush.

You know when you come into a corner, lean it over and it tightens just as you go under the trees where there's some moss? The bike slides out, you lean like fuck, hold that throttle, and the bike gradualy picks up grip, throws an almighty great wobbly and nearly throws you off. But you save it.

And about 10 seconds later your heart is beating like crazy and your head's a mess.

That's what it feels like when your blood sugar is low.

Except it doesn't stop. Until about ten minutes after you get sugar into yourself.

Anyway, this is starting to get a wee bit off topic. Apologies for that.
Jeeezus dude get to the point --friggin moro bar or coke? :Pokey:
Hehehehe

[FROSTY]

I gotta say in all seriousness mate--Me knowing you Id try to get a suggary drink down ya.
But in all honesty if I diddn't I'd CHOOSE to do nothing unless specificly instructed by the EMS

Hmm someone somewhere mentioned this issue.
Like Hey me out riding with Riffer or another senior KBer I know, I know their medical condiition and think I would react accordingly.
If you have a condition that potentially is an issue wouldn't it be clever to make sure at least one of ya riding buddies knows about it and how to deal with it??

[Bow-Down]

Go sit a 1st aid course for free. Then move onto your advanced course its really interesting.

[FROSTY]

Go sit a 1st aid course for free. Then move onto your advanced course its really interesting.
Yea I agree but what about like NOW.

[riffer]

Jeeezus dude get to the point --friggin moro bar or coke? :Pokey:
Hehehehe


The page at www.kiwibiker.co.nz says:

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to FROSTY again.

Funny guy...

[dpex]

I would really like advise from EMS folks on this one.Please let me know if im wrong in anything im saying here --DONER?? Speedie? Riff Raff ?? Firefight etc

You're quite right, Frosty. You are about as far away from being a crash-scene expert as I am from Mars.

Were that not the case you would have made mention of the eye-poke method for determining the living from the dead, and the glass-shard-and brake-hose tracheotomy method (well described by me in a earlier post) to help the 'about to stop breathing'.

I think that maybe you should stick to selling cars while you dream about owning a Yamaha.

[Hitcher]

You're quite right, Frosty. You are about as far away from being a crash-scene expert as I am from Mars.


I don't recall Frosty claiming anywhere to any expertise in attending a crash scene. Indeed the opposite, which is the clear purpose of this largely on-topic thread.

There are plenty of other threads -- indeed a whole forum -- on this site for onanistic trolling cocks to delight in the brain farts that they insist on posting. I suggest that you go and entertain yourself in one of those.

[caseye]

Coupdn't have siad it better myself Hitcher.Butt theres always gotta be a comedian aye.Keep at it Frosty, this is coming along nicely.

[Rayray401]

Oh btw, the way to check if someones dead or not...(i read this somewhere) but you dont need to touch the persons eyes to see if theyre alive or not..first is to check their pulse, breathing and their pupils...if theyre dead..pupils will dilate(will get bigger)...and when you shine bright light on it..the sizes of pupils wont change...and for CPR...mouth to mouth is phased out now...100 chest presses per minute...around 4cm above diaphragm..gotta press hard too..dont worry if you accidently break their ribs..helmet...you do need 2 people for it..but best keep it on..and best not do anything until EMS arrive..just keep em warm..and keep talking to them(the victims)

[FROSTY]

Keep at it Frosty, this is coming along nicely.
yea but PLEASE PRETTY PLEASE could folk from the emergency services put in their bit.

[Toot Toot]

yea but PLEASE PRETTY PLEASE could folk from the emergency services put in their bit.


Someone will explain to you why the emergency service people are not makng comment on kiwibiker when I see you tomorrow frosty.

[FROSTY]

Someone will explain to you why the emergency service people are not makng comment on kiwibiker when I see you tomorrow frosty.
Hey if it helps -If the EMS folk want to "NOT" make comment but would rather correct me in person or by PM. In this particular case I would hate to give bad advice to anyone.

[dpex]

I don't recall Frosty claiming anywhere to any expertise in attending a crash scene. Indeed the opposite, which is the clear purpose of this largely on-topic thread.

There are plenty of other threads -- indeed a whole forum -- on this site for onanistic trolling cocks to delight in the brain farts that they insist on posting. I suggest that you go and entertain yourself in one of those.

Will I discover you to be one of the more prolific posters in that part of the forum?

[dpex]

Oh btw, the way to check if someones dead or not...(i read this somewhere) but you dont need to touch the persons eyes to see if theyre alive or not..first is to check their pulse, breathing and their pupils...if theyre dead..pupils will dilate(will get bigger)...and when you shine bright light on it..the sizes of pupils wont change...and for CPR...mouth to mouth is phased out now...100 chest presses per minute...around 4cm above diaphragm..gotta press hard too..dont worry if you accidently break their ribs..helmet...you do need 2 people for it..but best keep it on..and best not do anything until EMS arrive..just keep em warm..and keep talking to them(the victims)

Nice thought, RayRay, but the fact is, some old farts like me hardly have a pulse anyway, which is why so many of us old farts get really excited when we find ourselves in the company of a female who is under a hundred and still breathing. And most of our red corpuscles have long been converted to pure alcohol (don't light a match near my corpse).

Frankly, Mate. I can't believe you took the eye-poke method, seriously. Doh!

[Hitcher]

Will I discover you to be one of the more prolific posters in that part of the forum?

Yes. I have over 10,000 posts in various Rant and Rave sections.

Next question please...

[firefighter]

to check if someones dead or not...(i read this somewhere) first is to check their pulse, breathing and their pupils...if theyre dead..pupils will dilate(will get bigger)...and when you shine bright light on it..the sizes of pupils wont change...

Maybe leave advice like this for the ambos, this is only half true, head injuries and drugs can also cause this.....plus general public I believe are to be looking for signs of life, not a pulse....


and for CPR...mouth to mouth is phased out now...100 chest presses per minute...

No it's not actually, in most circumstances yes, for a drowning victim things are different, and people may take this as CPR 101, breaths can still be used, they've just decided to get rid of them for a year or two until they change it again.


around 4cm above diaphragm..

You mean the line across their chest from armpit to armpit, slightly left of the sternum.....(you were'nt wrong but you need more of a description) Nipple line is out too because chests sag......


gotta press hard too..dont worry if you accidently break their ribs..

You mean the depth of their thumb.


helmet...you do need 2 people for it..but best keep it on..and best not do anything until EMS arrive..just keep em warm..and keep talking to them(the victims)

You mean keep it on unless you need to give them breaths for CPR, which in your wisdom you've already ruled out anyway so why take it off?

I know your trying to be helpful but even iv'e kept my input on actual medical care at near 0.76%, CPR instruction and advice on whether someone is dead or not should only be given by a professional, which the thread is aimed at, professional reccommendations on how to handle an accident.....not just random bits of winging it info.....you mean no harm for sure I know....but let the experts pass on the advice....

Now where is speedie to back me up.......? lol

[FROSTY]

Yea guys Ive avoided the specifics of resuss deliberately.The way I see it if you don't know how at the scene then you do stuff on the list you CAN do.

[ManDownUnder]

As a total lay person - what would really help is a concise printable sheet I can laminate and stick under the seat of my bike.

There's a lot of good stuff in here but I can't take it with me, and I'm not too keen to collate/summarise it because I don't know what the fuck I'm talking about... and which bits are important... and which bits aren't.

I'm also keen to keep it to the stuff that's within my abilities and experience. Not much point in saying a Tracheotomy's the solution to a given problem if me "giving it a go" is going to kill someone. (an extreme example but you get the idea). If an experienced EMS bod is willing to collate this stuff, I'm willing to do the work of finding a laminator and doing the rest if others want a copy too.

An A4 (or preferably) A5 sheet, double sided sheet is ideal. I can print them in colour... but laminating will cost so there might be a dollar or three per copy + postage.

[FROSTY]

MDU mate bear with me --or if someone with experience is able to start another thread. I called a couple of organisations and they are pretty positive on the concept. They are goiung to give their feedback to make things less er verbose.

[firefighter]

MDU mate bear with me --or if someone with experience is able to start another thread. I called a couple of organisations and they are pretty positive on the concept. They are goiung to give their feedback to make things less er verbose.

At work tonight i'll bring this up, get the boys to help me out with a step 1-10, i'll pm it to ya Frosty and you can decide if you want to put it up or if it's too complicated to remember etc.
We use a system at MVA's known as a 10 point plan, it's to do with extrication but the same concept can easily be adjusted for the moment you arrive at a scene to handover, so either tonight or tomorrow (memory permitting) i'll send it to you.

[FROSTY]

At work tonight i'll bring this up, get the boys to help me out with a step 1-10, i'll pm it to ya Frosty and you can decide if you want to put it up or if it's too complicated to remember etc.
We use a system at MVA's known as a 10 point plan, it's to do with extrication but the same concept can easily be adjusted for the moment you arrive at a scene to handover, so either tonight or tomorrow (memory permitting) i'll send it to you.
Very cool dude--Im trying to apply the KISS principle so its easy to remember.

[caseye]

Keep plugging away at it Frosty, it's working mate, they're coming around, this is important and if it can be kept to a minimum and as simple as possible it will give many who would not otherwise know anything at all something to do and and ability to positively assist someone in need. Love what you are doing here .

[FROSTY]

Ive had a really positive reply from one organisation I just want to confirm if Im allowed to officially credit their reply if I can then youll see a final draft pretty fast

[FROSTY]

I've spoken to STJohns and have asked for an official response.
WITH PERMISSION I'm copying this e mail reply

I have been asked by a Kiwi Biker to comment on the survival skills thread. By way of introduction I’m an ambo of 30 yrs plus experience, have worked in ambulance comms centres and I am a bike enthusiast including Priority 1 motorcycle riding in traffic. On reading the thread you guys are well on the right track, the 3 key messages that come out are stay safe, prevent further injury (protect the scene) and leave the helmet on. Not bad simple advice that works.

From me, the ambo, here is my advice:

[FROSTY]

1. When an accident occurs, take those deep breaths that have been recommended, slow down and think

2. Someone take charge (that means everyone else needs to calm down and take direction), the sooner key tasks are done the better the result

3. Immediately protect the fallen rider, ensure they cannot be hit by other traffic, post people into visible positions 30- 40- 50 meters away in both directions to warn other motorists

4. Find out who knows first aid and ask them to help with the rider, don’t move the injured person unless absolutely necessary, ie they are in water face down, or the approaching truck can’t stop, I also agree with the comment look for the quiet victim, they are most at risk

[FROSTY]

5. Detail one person to dial 111. Work with Ambulance Comms ie listen they work to a script which includes giving lifesaving advice. The call taker doesn’t organise the ambulance (someone else is doing that. Answer the questions. The location is vital, the person ringing should be able to answer simple questions if needed (what part of NZ, road name. If it is rural between which 2 towns, how long ago did you pass known a landmark etc). Some roads have 2 names work with the call taker it’s quicker. Important note: Ambulance Comms will despatch the closest resource which may include the fire brigade and will keep adding resources (higher skilled staff, doctors, helicopters as needed based on the information you provide

6. I agree with the loosen clothing comments, don’t remove the helmet if you can possibly avoid it -however do release the chin strap, keep the head and neck in alignment and no sudden movements, we do recommend applying clean dressings to bleeding but don’t recommend applying splints.

[FROSTY]

7. Take notes, this early information is vital to the attending ambulance crew, was the person unconscious (how long), were they confused, pulse rate, breathing rate, what changed.

8. The person in charge should be quietly checking off these tasks in their mind including a review of safety measures put in place to protect the rider.

[FROSTY]

9. Give the person nothing to drink or eat. The comments about insulin or sugar for diabetics and ventolin for asthma are valid up to a point, only give the person medicine prescribed for them (not someone else’s which often occurs), most diabetics who need sugar -hypo are at a point where anything put into their mouth could be harmful, most hyper too much sugar diabetics will not suffer harm from not having insulin. In short unless the medication is theirs and they can manage or direct it’s use don’t give it

10. If anything changes re-ring 111 and talk with the call taker they can give you advice or add more resources if needed

11. At the end ask yourself how important is it that you complete the first aid course you’ve been meaning to do.

If you can complete points 1 through 6 within 5 minutes you’ve done exceptionally well.

Steve Walker I Duty Operations Manager
St John Northern Region

Sorry guys, despite this being all words KB bots kept saying there were too many images in the posts
Ive also had a reply unoffficially from anonther branch of the EMS that Ill post up once im sure its ok

[caseye]

Cheers Bob and thanks for taking the trime to help Frosty get this thread recognised and some genuine ambo advice into it.St Johns and your good self , take a bow.

[crazyhorse]

I've had to rescue two different riders - and one must not have done his helmet up - very lucky man - although his face was a huge mess!

The other - was not in a good state. I refuse to remove helmets - let the experts deal with that one! You can do far more damage by removing a helmet. Just make them comfortable.

And make sure the bike engine is off - esp if petrol is leaking!

[mikeey01]

Frosty, hats off to you for driving this thread and getting a list up. Good on ya dude.
I myself have learnt several things from that list alone. Good on ya dude.
:first:

[FROSTY]

Hey folks A west auckland fire crew put a few hours into their response to my question --THANK YOU GUYS
Below is their response

Talked to the guys, even had the boss put some in.

Basic prompts to follow was the general consensus, due to tunnel vision etc too many words make things difficult.

1. Secure Scene/Position vehicle in fend-off position
2. Call 111. Ask for FIRE if persons trapped
3. Stop and take a breath, take in scene, be calm
4. If you have rubber gloves put them on
5. Start Basic Triage (if more than one person injured)
6. Administer first aid, loosen collar/helmut strap
7. Keep patients warm/cool
8. Take down notes (use bystanders if available)
9. Ask questions from back of card, write down all answers.
10. Ask their age, name, DOB, address, next of kin, phone number
11. Handover

Do not move anyone unless they're in danger

Do not take off helmut unless CPR required

Keep clothing on unless you need to stop major bleeding.

Then some acronyms on the back of the card:

S-Stop
T-Think
B-Barriers
M-Move

Breathing
Bleeding
Burns
Breaks

Level of conciousness
Alert
Voice induces response
Pain induces response
Unresponsive to stimuli

Head injury
Pupils
Equal
And
Reacting to
Light

PAIN
Provocation
Quality (stabbing, burning, sharp)
Radiation (does injury make another part of body hurt)
Severity (1-10)
Time - (intermittent/constant, when did it start)

Signs/symptoms
Allergies they have
Medications they are on
Past history
Last meal/liquid taken? how long ago?
Events prior

[FROSTY]

Um folks Im S### scared Im gonna stuff this up.
What I would like to do is take alll the bloody great advice that now looks like a friggin big mess and as MDU suggested get it to a nice simple to follow list.

[caseye]

Hey Frosty, so far so good man and I'm certain you are not going to drop the ball.
So go on make that list and lets get somehting definitive for the KBer's to see and learn.

[RAC]

in all honesty its a bloody difficult ( borderline irresponsible almost) subject to try and teach through a forum, and all the learned book knowledge in the world wont sufficiently prepare you for the real thing. the best and most effective option is to do a first aid course where you can be taught effectively:
http://www.stjohn.org.nz/education/course.aspx?cid=106

if you want to go further and get some experience (and do the courses for free) then become a St John volly:
http://www.stjohn.org.nz/volunteer/ao.aspx

the previous posts are on the right track with KISS tho,
above all keep yourself safe, stop and count slowly to ten (or 100 if needs be) in your head, observe the scene, work out where you are geographically, and use your cell phone to call 111 before you even walk over to the patient (Remember You can always cancel an ambulance if its not needed, and nobody will criticise you for being safe).
111 and ask for ambulance, they can co-respond fire/police from there and ideally you want them there the fastest, there is always confusion and delay when 2nd/third hand messages get passed between services (besides fire will be asleep or watching sky...).

keep them still if possible unless safety is an issue, if it is YOU SHOULDN'T BE THERE.

ABC:
A and B: if they are unconscious and have "noisy" breathing (gurgling, choking etc) then the easiest and most practical way to resolve this is by placing them in the recovery position (on their side). This will generally allow any gunk in their mouth etc to drain out the side, although sometimes you need to do it manually with your fingers.

"what about helmets and moving them around?" i hear you cry? if A and B isnt working then all bets are off, if you cant move air in and out you die. few people have injuries of this nature (20% have some sort of spinal, and 10% of these have c-spine injury, most (50%) are actually around the chest area) and even less are made worse by helmet removal. get it off as quickly and smoothly as you can and carry on. There was a forum about this subject that had some good pics on how to do this.

C: open up clothing as much as possible and look/feel for wet stuff. If you find some then keep looking untill you have had a whole body look. If you find any that is actively bleeding then put direct pressure on it and keep it on, don't be tempted to pull your hand away and "just have a look coz i think its stopped".

keep them company, reassurance plays a huge and often understated role in patient care, keep their chin up, and be positive regardless of the circumstances!

as stated, near impossible to teach without demo and practice:no:
so do a course or get someone to give you some hands on.

[FROSTY]

sticky anyone??

[Macontour]

If someone is bleeding badly, use direct pressure or whatever you have to stop the bleed. A mate years ago collided with a van near Blue Lake in Vegas, got a major cut(imagine a machete chop!!!) to his right shoulder. As he got to the side of the road the blood was already covering half his chest and visibly flowing through his jersey. I was just expecting to see some gravel rash! I ended up putting 2 handkerchiefs and 2 t-shirts into and over the cut(his shoulder had dislocated and was pulling the wound apart as well). Blood still flowed out if I released pressure on it.

A local doctor came down and had a look as we waited for the ambos and commented that "you have a little laceration there". He is obviously used to seeing more trauma than most of us.

2 points.. 1. It may look life threatening to us non medical people but the human body is pretty resilient and the medics are bloody good so don't panic.

2. Even using a dirty t-shirt to stop bleeding and having the potential of infection is better than the victim bleeding to death. The Doctors can treat the infection...if the victim lasts to get to the hospital.

The point about doing "something" is good too. At that particular accident, a mate couldn't really face the blood but he did a great job of waving down the traffic keeping the scene, and us, safe.
If you need help and people are standing around doing nothing, tell them what you want them to do. Many people will be too scared or stunned to help out but just need a push to get involved.

Ensure that someone has called the emergency services!

[enigma51]

1. Secure Scene/Position vehicle in fend-off position
2. Call 111. Ask for FIRE if persons trapped
3. Stop and take a breath, take in scene, be calm
4. If you have rubber gloves put them on
5. Start Basic Triage (if more than one person injured)
6. Administer first aid, loosen collar/helmut strap
7. Keep patients warm/cool
8. Take down notes (use bystanders if available)
9. Ask questions from back of card, write down all answers.
10. Ask their age, name, DOB, address, next of kin, phone number
11. Handover

Do not move anyone unless they're in danger

Do not take off helmut unless CPR required

Keep clothing on unless you need to stop major bleeding.

Then some acronyms on the back of the card:

S-Stop
T-Think
B-Barriers
M-Move

Breathing
Bleeding
Burns
Breaks

Level of conciousness
Alert
Voice induces response
Pain induces response
Unresponsive to stimuli

Head injury
Pupils
Equal
And
Reacting to
Light

PAIN
Provocation
Quality (stabbing, burning, sharp)
Radiation (does injury make another part of body hurt)
Severity (1-10)
Time - (intermittent/constant, when did it start)

Signs/symptoms
Allergies they have
Medications they are on
Past history
Last meal/liquid taken? how long ago?
Events prior

You forgot the dont phone families and friends wait for the emergency services they will deal with it.

I know it sounds "what the fuck" but if you start phoning family and friends you are going to have to deal with people on a phone as well as the person/s injured.

[enigma51]

Frosty i would not keep this to just bike crash sites but if you can have it more general it will help.

[Jonno.]

Just add my 2c
1. CPR isn't meant to revive people, it's meant to imitate breating and circulating blood around the body. Keep it up until the ambos take over.
2. 30 compressions, 2 breaths, 30 compressions, 2 breaths etc.
3. Take a first aid course.

The ambos need to do cpr for 5 minutes (?) if no one has done it before using the defrib (the shock thing).

[firefighter]

Why is everyone making this so complifuckencated?

1. Do a first Aid fucken course.
2. Follow the 10 point fucken plan, print it, laminate the fucken thing, put it under your fucken seat until needed, follow the fucken steps and hand over to the fucken ambos.

Fucken hell. Too much info in here to follow that's for fucken sure.

FFS.

Follow this and I promise you will be O fucken K.

Jesus.

Don't you dickfaces think there's enough repeated advice in here already? Real fucken helpful.

[enigma51]

Why is everyone making this so complifuckencated?

1. Do a first Aid fucken course.
2. Follow the 10 point fucken plan, print it, laminate the fucken thing, put it under your fucken seat until needed, follow the fucken steps and hand over to the fucken ambos.

Fucken hell. Too much info in here to follow that's for fucken sure.

FFS.

Follow this and I promise you will be O fucken K.

Jesus.

Don't you dickfaces think there's enough repeated advice in here already? Real fucken helpful.

Now you just being fucking silly. <_<

[Road Guardian]

Is this something that could be placed on the wiki, but in a really really simple version, so that nothing is too confusing to remember when you are at a accident scene are you are running around like a headless chicken????

[scumdog]

My two-cents.
Make great efforts to make the scene safe - get other people up the road to slow traffic well before the scene.

Too many secondary crashes happen because everybody is crowding around the crash scene looking at the mess instead of doing the above.

[PrincessBandit]

If someone is bleeding badly, use direct pressure or whatever you have to stop the bleed. A mate years ago collided with a van near Blue Lake in Vegas, got a major cut(imagine a machete chop!!!) to his right shoulder. As he got to the side of the road the blood was already covering half his chest and visibly flowing through his jersey. I was just expecting to see some gravel rash! I ended up putting 2 handkerchiefs and 2 t-shirts into and over the cut(his shoulder had dislocated and was pulling the wound apart as well). Blood still flowed out if I released pressure on it.

A local doctor came down and had a look as we waited for the ambos and commented that "you have a little laceration there". He is obviously used to seeing more trauma than most of us.

2 points.. 1. It may look life threatening to us non medical people but the human body is pretty resilient and the medics are bloody good so don't panic.

2. Even using a dirty t-shirt to stop bleeding and having the potential of infection is better than the victim bleeding to death. The Doctors can treat the infection...if the victim lasts to get to the hospital.

The point about doing "something" is good too. At that particular accident, a mate couldn't really face the blood but he did a great job of waving down the traffic keeping the scene, and us, safe.
If you need help and people are standing around doing nothing, tell them what you want them to do. Many people will be too scared or stunned to help out but just need a push to get involved.

Ensure that someone has called the emergency services!

Thinking about your "a little laceration" comment - medical personnel probably recognise the importance of keeping things calm, even by occasionally making a lighthearted comment, in the face of potential panic. I've heard that air traffic controllers are supposed to keep a neutral voice even in the face of chaos in order to not exacerbate a bad situation.
So it is possible that the cut wasn't as bad as you thought it was, or it could also have been his way of keeping things calm and not adding to the stress and panic of the accident scene.

[LBD]

And if your at a loose end...write down the numberplates of the witnesses...If it was the cars fault.

[90s]

Great thread, and without having to do afirst-aid course it is a good idea to review other material about keeping safe, traffic direction, detail to tell EMS for example. Great work.

There is one thing I would like to add to make EMS's life a little easier - and that is check for med ID. I wear a wristband because I am on Warfarin; diabetic (as earlier) often have one. Others wear a necklace. Look in wallet if accessible for a medical emergency ID card - if someone has one it should be right on top. I carry one of these too. This info could be important, and it can't hurt to relay it if you can.