School speed limits. What's your point of view?

[bull]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/2417346/Boys-death-prompts-reminder-of-school-bus-rule

Copied from Stuff Site:
Police are urging motorists to heed the legal speed limit of 20kmh when passing school buses picking up and dropping off children.

The warning follows the death of a 12-year-old intermediate school student in Matamata, 62km east of Hamilton, yesterday.

He boy had been dropped off by a school bus about 3.45pm when it appears he strayed into the path of an oncoming car.

He died at the scene and the death has been referred to the coroner.

The family has asked for privacy and the boy's name is due to be released on Monday.

The death brings the Waikato's road toll to 18 compared to 23 for the same period last year.

Waikato Road Policing Manager, Inspector Leo Tooman, said it was crucial that people observed the speed restriction of 20kmh when passing stationary school buses.

"Thousands of children take the school bus everyday and it is one of the safest forms of transport around but the stakes are too high and it just takes a second for disaster to strike."

At 20kmh drivers had that much more time to react and reduces the forces of any impact considerably, he said.

"At the same time if you're travelling with your lights on it makes your vehicle that much more visible to children."

I get the point of the slow down to 20km/h when passing the bus, but at what stage do we finally put the responsibility back on the kid whom has hopped off the bus and then stepped straight out onto the road?
What a failure by the parents to teach the kid about the simple task of crossing the road and hes paid with his life. I feel sorry for the family and the driver to have to go through this but surely some onus is on the kid to cross when it is clear.

Perhaps the kids all know that the cars are supposed to be doing 20km so they figure they can rush across and beat the car.

Whats your thoughts?

[awayatc]

kids....

adults....

Now which of the two is supposed to have most common sense.....?

You obviously haven't got kids yourself....

[CookMySock]

It's not about transferring responsibility from the kids to the adults, its about saying these problems are statistically more likely to happen in this area, so we all play our part to reduce the problem.

Seriously though, I agree - walk out in front of a car and meet your maker. :weird:

School Principals could perhaps penalise students for jaywalking - it is against the law anyway.

Steve

[Blackshear]

I guess we both (Kids and adults) need to wisen up.

Kids: Check the road before you go stepping out on it, ya knob. Condolences all the same, how horrible would that be, getting to work and finding out?

Adults: Common sense. They're kids, they don't always think things through. How horrible would it be to knock over a kid, worse yet, kill them?

[oldrider]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/2417346/Boys-death-prompts-reminder-of-school-bus-rule

Copied from Stuff Site:
Police are urging motorists to heed the legal speed limit of 20kmh when passing school buses picking up and dropping off children.

The warning follows the death of a 12-year-old intermediate school student in Matamata, 62km east of Hamilton, yesterday.

He boy had been dropped off by a school bus about 3.45pm when it appears he strayed into the path of an oncoming car.

He died at the scene and the death has been referred to the coroner.

The family has asked for privacy and the boy's name is due to be released on Monday.

The death brings the Waikato's road toll to 18 compared to 23 for the same period last year.

Waikato Road Policing Manager, Inspector Leo Tooman, said it was crucial that people observed the speed restriction of 20kmh when passing stationary school buses.

"Thousands of children take the school bus everyday and it is one of the safest forms of transport around but the stakes are too high and it just takes a second for disaster to strike."

At 20kmh drivers had that much more time to react and reduces the forces of any impact considerably, he said.

"At the same time if you're travelling with your lights on it makes your vehicle that much more visible to children."

I get the point of the slow down to 20km/h when passing the bus, but at what stage do we finally put the responsibility back on the kid whom has hopped off the bus and then stepped straight out onto the road?
What a failure by the parents to teach the kid about the simple task of crossing the road and hes paid with his life. I feel sorry for the family and the driver to have to go through this but surely some onus is on the kid to cross when it is clear.

Perhaps the kids all know that the cars are supposed to be doing 20km so they figure they can rush across and beat the car.

Whats your thoughts?

School buses could have flashing lights that come on when the doors are opened, at least switched to active when they are in service and carrying children!

The signals could be installed front and rear and when active "so is the speed limit"

I would like to see more of the "revenue" collected being spent on safety upgrades to existing traffic problems.

I.E. More clearly defined speed restricted area notices or road markings!

It is sometimes (as a stranger to an area) difficult to define just what speed you are limited to!

Surrounding traffic is often "no" indication and it's a long time between notices in some places.

Does any one else find this a problem or am I just getting a bit old and doddery? :doh:

[Headbanger]

Children make childish decisions, They are always doing stupid shit. Slow the fuck down around schools, Its not like it takes any effort.

[paturoa]

Even the most sensible kids have brain explosions and do stupid stuff, like run across roads without looking.

So that leaves us with 2 choices, running over kids at high speed or running over them at low speed. I suspect that low speed is the better option.

[6ft5]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/2417346/Boys-death-prompts-reminder-of-school-bus-rule

Copied from Stuff Site:
Police are urging motorists to heed the legal speed limit of 20kmh when passing school buses picking up and dropping off children.

The warning follows the death of a 12-year-old intermediate school student in Matamata, 62km east of Hamilton, yesterday.

He boy had been dropped off by a school bus about 3.45pm when it appears he strayed into the path of an oncoming car.

He died at the scene and the death has been referred to the coroner.

The family has asked for privacy and the boy's name is due to be released on Monday.

The death brings the Waikato's road toll to 18 compared to 23 for the same period last year.

Waikato Road Policing Manager, Inspector Leo Tooman, said it was crucial that people observed the speed restriction of 20kmh when passing stationary school buses.

"Thousands of children take the school bus everyday and it is one of the safest forms of transport around but the stakes are too high and it just takes a second for disaster to strike."

At 20kmh drivers had that much more time to react and reduces the forces of any impact considerably, he said.

"At the same time if you're travelling with your lights on it makes your vehicle that much more visible to children."

I get the point of the slow down to 20km/h when passing the bus, but at what stage do we finally put the responsibility back on the kid whom has hopped off the bus and then stepped straight out onto the road?
What a failure by the parents to teach the kid about the simple task of crossing the road and hes paid with his life. I feel sorry for the family and the driver to have to go through this but surely some onus is on the kid to cross when it is clear.

Perhaps the kids all know that the cars are supposed to be doing 20km so they figure they can rush across and beat the car.

Whats your thoughts?

hmm this is a tricky one. Kids are kids and as others already mentioned are very impulsive and don't think when they do things most of the time, this is why they go to school to develop this ability. Parents on the other hand need to use what they have learnt and do what they do in the US. When a school bus stops the lights flash and you are not supposed to pass. Anyone that does will get a public lynching. So perhaps an idea for here. It scares me to go past a school when kids are going or coming, you never know what happens next

[paturoa]

.... or am I just getting a bit old and doddery? :doh:

um, how are we supposed to answer that one?:doh:

[sunhuntin]

hmm this is a tricky one. Kids are kids and as others already mentioned are very impulsive and don't think when they do things most of the time, this is why they go to school to develop this ability. Parents on the other hand need to use what they have learnt and do what they do in the US. When a school bus stops the lights flash and you are not supposed to pass. Anyone that does will get a public lynching. So perhaps an idea for here. It scares me to go past a school when kids are going or coming, you never know what happens next

agreed. it should be no passing a school bus when it is picking or dropping kids. but then, how many buses do we see on a daily basis still wearing school signs, but parked up in such a place that theres no way they could be doing a school run? i think such signs should be removed when those buses are not carrying school kids. would make things easier. maybe drivers could also flick on the hazard lights when parked on a school run.

but then again, the local bus drivers dont seem to know to turn their indicators off from a corner taken 10 mins ago, so chances are, the hazards would stay on all day, every day.

[Chooky]

Yea...All drivers, speed limit past a stopped school bus is 20kph, most bus drivers will give you a nod or wave for doing so.

Kids.. dont cross the road until the bus has gone..

Parents waiting to pick up kids, DONT wait on the other side of the road, your asking for trouble.

A mate of mine who used to drive primary school buses told me the thing that bugged him the most was mothers sitting in their shiney Landcruisers on the other side of the road.
He used to personally escort the kids across the road and then give the mothers a right royal bollicking.

[6ft5]

agreed. it should be no passing a school bus when it is picking or dropping kids. but then, how many buses do we see on a daily basis still wearing school signs, but parked up in such a place that theres no way they could be doing a school run? i think such signs should be removed when those buses are not carrying school kids. would make things easier. maybe drivers could also flick on the hazard lights when parked on a school run.

but then again, the local bus drivers dont seem to know to turn their indicators off from a corner taken 10 mins ago, so chances are, the hazards would stay on all day, every day.

This is a more general poor road behavior situation of all drivers nit just bus drivers. The general participation is selfish and poor in terms of the standards I have seen around the world. We need to clean up our act and it should start with the police to re-educate people's behavior, indicating, anticipating, perhaps us bikers would have a better go and enjoy riding

[oldrider]

um, how are we supposed to answer that one?:doh:

(lol) Make another law that you can't pass me :ride: at speeds in excess of 20km/h too! :eek:

[Nasty]

Thoughts ... are a jumble on this as its a really farking huge issue down here in some places.

The school drop offs on Paecock hill road were in a really stupid places a couple of years ago .. it was a 100 km zone and a kid ran across the road and got hit and severly injured. He lived and when I worked with his mum (years ago) they still lived in hell because of this.

If a school bus is in a 100 or 80 km zone you are upon it often too quickly to know that its a school bus and to slow down to that 20 kms is an issue I think without enough warning.

Another point - I live in a cul de sac with a school. Not passing the school bus as suggested means that I would not be able to leave my street for 40 minutes on any given day .... as they come in and get pick ups and drop offs dribbling in and out ... and already I have an issue with idiot parents who park over my drive and on yellow lines!

I think that the little sign on school buses is stupid .. you actually have to actively look for it as it is NOT obvious.

thats it for now.

[bull]

My main gripe is that the transport authority has singled out this case to prove their point about slowing down to 20km/h past a school bus. Though in this case if the kid has been hit by an ONCOMING car then it would seem he was hit in the other lane which is not restricted to he 20km/h.

[Edbear]

OldRider's idea of flashing lights on the bus is a good one or at least the hazard lights, but of course anything that is the driver's responsibilty is going to be subject to brain fade.

No-one who has, (had), children or who teaches/cares for young children will have any problem understanding what happened. I was approaching an intersection years ago in Taupo and noticed a young boy waiting to cross the road. I backed off and with my foot over the brake watched him closely as I approached. Looking me straight in the eye, he ran out in front of me just as I got to him. Slamming the brakes on I just hit him square-on knocking him to the ground. I was doing about 10-15km/h by then.

He got up and ran off. I jumped out of the car and ran after him up the street to his home and after checking he was okay and telling his aunt what happened and that I thought she should take him to the Doc for a check, I got back in the car, my wife had got in the driver's seat and followed me.

I was shaken up but grateful that I was prepared for just that to happen. Our three children were in the car with us and got a fright. Never assume a child won't do the obvious, even if they see you coming!

[6ft5]

OldRider's idea of flashing lights on the bus is a good one or at least the hazard lights, but of course anything that is the driver's responsibilty is going to be subject to brain fade.

No-one who has, (had), children or who teaches/cares for young children will have any problem understanding what happened. I was approaching an intersection years ago in Taupo and noticed a young boy waiting to cross the road. I backed off and with my foot over the brake watched him closely as I approached. Looking me straight in the eye, he ran out in front of me just as I got to him. Slamming the brakes on I just hit him square-on knocking him to the ground. I was doing about 10-15km/h by then.

He got up and ran off. I jumped out of the car and ran after him up the street to his home and after checking he was okay and telling his aunt what happened and that I thought she should take him to the Doc for a check, I got back in the car, my wife had got in the driver's seat and followed me.

I was shaken up but grateful that I was prepared for just that to happen. Our three children were in the car with us and got a fright. Never assume a child won't do the obvious, even if they see you coming!

Pretty rough, lucky you weren't on yr bike, kid would have been pretty bruised

[Edbear]

Pretty rough, lucky you weren't on yr bike, kid would have been pretty bruised

You're quite right, actually. On a bike, the first thing that connects is the front wheel which would have probably gone over the top of him locked up. Not a pleasant thought. In a car, the wheels are a couple of feet behind the bumper giving the kid a chance to be knocked away from them.

Those old Morris Marina's were pretty solid, though, so a good thing I was going so slow...

[6ft5]

lucky kid, makes you wonder what he was thinking (if any) when he decided to cross, perhaps that you were slowing and perhaps stopping for him.... will never know.

[Beemer]

... If a school bus is in a 100 or 80 km zone you are upon it often too quickly to know that its a school bus and to slow down to that 20 kms is an issue I think without enough warning...

I totally agree - in the mornings when travelling to Palmerston North from Levin I have often come across a bus that has pulled over to pick up kids on Opiki Road and the one leading to and from Longburn. As you can imagine, nine times out of 10 there is traffic behind me, all doing about 100kph. If I suddenly brake and slow to 20kph to pass the bus, I am likely to cause a horrendous accident. But if a kid should run out in front of the bus and I hit them, then I would be at fault for not slowing to 20kph.

I can understand slowing to 20kph near schools or in 50kph zones, but it's a bit like the 70kph learner speed limit - it puts you at risk of being hit by others who either don't see the bus - at 100kph it would come up pretty fast - or don't give a flying rat's arse about the speed limit. I once slowed (not to 20 but to about 50) when I approached a stopped bus and got overtaken by every vehicle behind me - so where is the safety in that? If any kid had been crossing, even if I could have avoided them, the guys behind me would have collected them.

I think that if a bus is pulling over to pick up or drop off children in a 100kph zone, there should be a safe area for the bus to pull into and the speed limit should not apply in those instances.

It's a terrible tragedy whenever a child is killed while crossing the road but perhaps they need to have someone on the bus who takes the kids to the other side of the road safely - making motorists in 100kph zones slow to 20kph is ridiculous. Teaching road safety and to stop, look both ways and only cross when the way is clear is also long overdue.

[FJRider]

Perhaps the kids all know that the cars are supposed to be doing 20km so they figure they can rush across and beat the car.

Whats your thoughts?

I believe this has similaritys to zebra crossings ... kids are taught that this is a safe place to cross a road. AND that cars have to stop for them. So they step out onto the road ... regardless how far away the car is from the crossing. Often they ride their bikes along the footpath ... then straight onto the crossing to cross the road, without checking vehicles speed, or how close the vehicles are.
At least school bus laws are giving the passing vehicles a buffer speed, to stop in time... should the need arise. I would rather be required to slow (by law) and do so, than put the onus on a school age kid, and say .... not my fault... with the death/injury on any kid. The 20 km limit, means you can lose your licence for exceeding the speed limit on an open (100 km's/hr posted) road by more than 40 km's/hr.

[Dave Lobster]

This excuse about children making dumb decisions is rubbish. Why is a child who is too young to know that you'll get killed crossing when there's a car coming unsupervised??
Any child over the age of four should know something as simple use the crossing or get an adult to cross you over the road.

Are children taught the Green Cross Code here? It was drummed into me at the age of three at nursery school. I was never knocked down by a car, as a child.

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Personal responsibility seems to be be such a dirty word now..

[Chooky]

My main gripe is that the transport authority has singled out this case to prove their point about slowing down to 20km/h past a school bus. Though in this case if the kid has been hit by an ONCOMING car then it would seem he was hit in the other lane which is not restricted to he 20km/h.

Nope....speed limit applies both directions.

[davereid]

Personal responsibility seems to be be such a dirty word now..

Taking responsibility for your own actions is a little missing in New Zealand. I completely agree that we quickly blame the government, or some one (generally called "they") who should have fixed it.

But "they" dont always fix it.

Kids (and adults for that matter) sometime just make mistakes, just for a microsecond.

A child keen to beat the rain, get home for a snack, or simply daydreaming can make a very costly mistake, with consequences far beyond the real value of the mistake.

It costs me little or nothing to slow to a safe speed passing a school, school bus or when I see kids with a ball on the road side.

For my money, a family has been crushed by a childs moment of inattention.

I'd find it very hard to live with myself had I been the driver, at the legal speed limit.

And a lot harder to deal with it had I been 80 km/hr over it.

[cs363]

A mate of mine who used to drive primary school buses told me the thing that bugged him the most was mothers sitting in their shiney Landcruisers on the other side of the road.
He used to personally escort the kids across the road and then give the mothers a right royal bollicking.

That right there (Mums in Remuera tractors) is yet another good reason to slow down around schools besides the obvious. Mums in big vehicles packed with excited kids are some of the most dangerous vehicles on the road to motorcyclists as the drivers are often way to preoccupied with the goings on inside the vehicle to notice another car, let alone a bike...

[Pixie]

Let Darwin weed out the thick ones,it'll strengthen the species.
There's too many of the little shits anyway

[bull]

Hey thanks for that Chooky - didnt realise it applied to both directions of traffic. And would be very suprised if many others knew that it applied to both flows of traffic. Perhaps an TV campaign should be highlighting that both traffic flows need to slow to 20km/h.

Maybe bus stops could be fitted with some kind of barrier that means that the kids cant just step out behind the bus onto the road - a simple steel barrier that is mounted on the curb at the left side of bus stops and stretches a distance suitable for both the long and shorter buses.

[FJRider]

Something to be aware of ... most School bus routes have signs indicating you are on a school bus route. From 3 till 5 pm, you can expect to see buses on these ... or any rural area road. We all know school buses exist... look out for them. A little extra care around these buses may stop a lot of pain in a family for years to come. The onus of responsibility is shared by all road users ... be it driving, riding, walking on or across it. Take care out there... its a small world. The kid you hit may be related to you, or a friend of yours.

[awayatc]

The kid you hit may be related to you, or a friend of yours.


If a dickhead runs over one of mine then ONE funeral won't be enough.....

Persuasive enough....?

[PirateJafa]

School buses could have flashing lights that come on when the doors are opened, at least switched to active when they are in service and carrying children!

The signals could be installed front and rear and when active "so is the speed limit"


If a school bus is in a 100 or 80 km zone you are upon it often too quickly to know that its a school bus and to slow down to that 20 kms is an issue I think without enough warning.


OldRider's idea of flashing lights on the bus is a good one or at least the hazard lights, but of course anything that is the driver's responsibilty is going to be subject to brain fade.

School buses have two-foot wide fluro-yellow signs on them with the large word "SCHOOL" printed on.

If you cannot see this, please go and hand your license into the nearest police station until you've been to your local optometrist

If you're unable to slow down in time, then clearly you are already going too fast for the conditions, and deserve what you get for being a fucking tool.

[FJRider]

Maybe bus stops could be fitted with some kind of barrier that means that the kids cant just step out behind the bus onto the road - a simple steel barrier that is mounted on the curb at the left side of bus stops and stretches a distance suitable for both the long and shorter buses.

The stopping places for school buses in rural drop off/pick up are often on busy highways, or narrow back roads, with seldom enough space for the bus to pull off the road fully ... and few take notice of vehicles parked off the road. Flashing lights or not. School buses are varied in size (down here anyway) and vary from 52 seater... to a mini-van.
Most people expect kids around schools... its out on the open road areas that are the danger area.

[yungatart]

This excuse about children making dumb decisions is rubbish. Why is a child who is too young to know that you'll get killed crossing when there's a car coming unsupervised??
Any child over the age of four should know something as simple use the crossing or get an adult to cross you over the road.

Are children taught the Green Cross Code here? It was drummed into me at the age of three at nursery school. I was never knocked down by a car, as a child.

Personal responsibility seems to be be such a dirty word now..

These children are aged 5 and up. They do not have the brain maturity to understand speed and distance at such a young age. They are on a school bus FFS. Who is going to supervise them crossing the road? The driver??

Slow down...it will add a couple of seconds to your journey and may save a life!

Never heard of the "green cross code". I presume since you learned it at "nursery school" you weren't in NZ at the time?

I thought we were talking "personal responsibility" ie...the responsibility of the driver to ensure he /she obeys the law while passing a stationary school bus.

[FJRider]

These children are aged 5 and up. They do not have the brain maturity to understand speed and distance at such a young age. They are on a school bus FFS. Who is going to supervise them crossing the road? The driver??

Slow down...it will add a couple of seconds to your journey and may save a life!

Never heard of the "green cross code". I presume since you learned it at "nursery school" you weren't in NZ at the time?



It is an age thing ... it was stopped years ago. Only "older" members may remember it... depending on what medications they are on...

[Edbear]

School buses have two-foot wide fluro-yellow signs on them with the large word "SCHOOL" printed on.

If you cannot see this, please go and hand your license into the nearest police station until you've been to your local optometrist

If you're unable to slow down in time, then clearly you are already going too fast for the conditions, and deserve what you get for being a fucking tool.


Point taken, but a simple flashing light is very effective at waking people up who may not register the danger immediately. It is very well to say what "should" be, but the reality is that human beings are not that good at it.


The stopping places for school buses in rural drop off/pick up are often on busy highways, or narrow back roads, with seldom enough space for the bus to pull off the road fully ... and few take notice of vehicles parked off the road. Flashing lights or not. School buses are varied in size (down here anyway) and vary from 52 seater... to a mini-van.
Most people expect kids around schools... its out on the open road areas that are the danger area.

Absolutely correct. The death in question was on a rural road and it's not the first in that area. I recall and 8 yr old boy killed in much the same manner but it was a large truck in his case.


These children are aged 5 and up. They do not have the brain maturity to understand speed and distance at such a young age. They are on a school bus FFS. Who is going to supervise them crossing the road? The driver??

Slow down...it will add a couple of seconds to your journey and may save a life!

Never heard of the "green cross code". I presume since you learned it at "nursery school" you weren't in NZ at the time?

I thought we were talking "personal responsibility" ie...the responsibility of the driver to ensure he /she obeys the law while passing a stationary school bus.

Again, absolutely right!

[Dave Lobster]

These children are aged 5 and up. They do not have the brain maturity to understand speed and distance at such a young age. They are on a school bus FFS. Who is going to supervise them crossing the road? The driver??


If they're aged five, the person picking them up from the bus. A five year old isn't likely to be walking home from the bus drop off/pick up on its own, is it?



Slow down...it will add a couple of seconds to your journey and may save a life!


I don't go fast to start with. I ride a scooter.





Never heard of the "green cross code". I presume since you learned it at "nursery school" you weren't in NZ at the time?

Of course, if you've never heard of it. But there must be something similar here. There's road safety lessons for five year olds, isn't there? As soon as children are big enough to be out walking with their parents (or parent...) they'll be taught basics like look for cars before crossing the road.



I thought we were talking "personal responsibility" ie...the responsibility of the driver to ensure he /she obeys the law while passing a stationary school bus.

Yeah, just like the laws that everyone else obeys.. like strap your children in.. concentrate on driving, rather than tapping text messages/not dropping ash in your lap/controlling the children in the back seat/making sure your mirrors point behind, rather than at the sky/etc.

[MisterD]

Never heard of the "green cross code". I presume since you learned it at "nursery school" you weren't in NZ at the time?

David Prowse will always be the Green Cross Code Man first...and Darth Vader somewhere down the list...

[PirateJafa]

Point taken, but a simple flashing light is very effective at waking people up who may not register the danger immediately. It is very well to say what "should" be, but the reality is that human beings are not that good at it.

Wrong. Wrong wrong wrong WRONG.

This is the problem with NZ - thinking like this. It's the ambulance at the bottom of the cliff.

Retards need to be taken OFF the road, instead of just dumbing the road down further for them.

It is a privilege to have a license, not a right. Cars/bikes are potentially lethal, to both the driver/riders, and to pedestrians - unfortunately people don't tend to realise this.

[FJRider]

A simple flashing light is very effective at waking people up who may not register the danger immediately. It is very well to say what "should" be, but the reality is that human beings are not that good at it.





Every man and his dog has a flashing ligh on their vehicle now. Often forget to turn the bloody thing off when out of their danger areas where they were needed.

Too often its a case of ... I never saw him... so it can't be my fault...

Personal responsibility ... its up to us to take it seriously ...

I have not heard of many (any) motorcyclists hitting a kid on the open road in these sort of situations, and I don't want to...

[yungatart]

It is an age thing ... it was stopped years ago. Only "older" members may remember it... depending on what medications they are on...

I am old. I'm not on medication...my memory must be falling apart...:doh:

[Edbear]

Wrong. Wrong wrong wrong WRONG.

This is the problem with NZ - thinking like this. It's the ambulance at the bottom of the cliff.

Retards need to be taken OFF the road, instead of just dumbing the road down further for them.

It is a privilege to have a license, not a right. Cars/bikes are potentially lethal, to both the driver/riders, and to pedestrians - unfortunately people don't tend to realise this.

No, think about it. The accident happened, it was reality. Such accidents happen regularly and most "accidents" could have been prevented if the person(s) concerned were doing the "right thing". The road toll "should" be near zero.

The reality is that "retards" are not and never will be taken off the road. The reality is that such deaths are going to occur on a regular basis. The reality is that brain-fade and a moment's innattention is going to occur to all drivers at some point - you will know for yourself that you have had times on the road that you knew you were "lucky" not to have an accident due to your own failure as have we all.

How often have we heard people say, "But it was because..." as though it "should" have been different? MAybe it should have been different but the point is, it happened! People are dying and being horribly injured every day in all walks of life an at any time. That's reality. It is also reality that a flashing light makes a difference whether you like it or not.

You can postulate all sorts of "should be's", but the Ambulance is always going to be needed at the bottom of the cliff no matter how hard anyone tries to negate that need.

[Edbear]

Every man and his dog has a flashing ligh on their vehicle now. Often forget to turn the bloody thing off when out of their danger areas where they were needed.

Too often its a case of ... I never saw him... so it can't be my fault...

Personal responsibility ... its up to us to take it seriously ...

I have not heard of many (any) motorcyclists hitting a kid on the open road in these sort of situations, and I don't want to...

Agreed, but trucks and buses, even mini-buses with a single flashing light on the roof are surprisingly visible and do catch a motorist's attention. Any such simple measures that are inexpensive and effective would have to be a "good thing" IMHO.

[FJRider]

You can postulate all sorts of "should be's", but the Ambulance is always going to be needed at the bottom of the cliff no matter how hard anyone tries to negate that need.

The "Ambulance at the bottom of the cliff" is ... and always has been, the cheapest/easiest solution, to most problems. To reduce the use of this "solution" ... always do the right thing, at the right time. Not just when it is convenient for you.

Do we really need more laws and rules ???

[FJRider]

Agreed, but trucks and buses, even mini-buses with a single flashing light on the roof are surprisingly visible and do catch a motorist's attention. Any such simple measures that are inexpensive and effective would have to be a "good thing" IMHO.

Most school buses put their hazzard lights on now, for this very reason. The simple fact that most bus companys that supply school buses, dont use them solely for the school bus runs. Extra laws requiring them needing this ... will be opposed ... strenuously ... by those companys...

But if all obeyed all existing laws now ... they would not be needed.

OH LOOK .... there's a pig flying past .... :rolleyes:

[FJRider]

I am old. I'm not on medication...my memory must be falling apart...:doh:

Poor old girl, a nip of Whiskey(or similar) a day will suffice for medication ... those Green Cross Code thingys were not memorable anyway...

[martybabe]

Children make childish decisions, They are always doing stupid shit. Slow the fuck down around schools, Its not like it takes any effort.


Yup, sums it up for me. Personal responsibility for sure but I don't give a crap if they're stupid or 300% in the wrong, I don't want to hurt/maim /kill a child because they've had a dumb moment. Even smart Kids are stupid sometimes.

[PirateJafa]

No, think about it. The accident happened, it was reality. Such accidents happen regularly and most "accidents" could have been prevented if the person(s) concerned were doing the "right thing".

Exactly. They happen regularly


The reality is that "retards" are not and never will be taken off the road.

I dunno, the cops seem to do, on the whole, a pretty good job. They're just let down by limp-wristed judges.


Agreed, but trucks and buses, even mini-buses with a single flashing light on the roof are surprisingly visible and do catch a motorist's attention. Any such simple measures that are inexpensive and effective would have to be a "good thing" IMHO.

Container straddle-carriers at the wharves are 20 metres high and have orange flashing lights on them. Aaaand yet once every year or two someone still gets run over.

The threshold needs to be enforced to fix below-average driving, not lowered.


Even smart Kids are stupid sometimes.

Same goes for adults! :slap:

[Beemer]

Nope....speed limit applies both directions.

And that is where I have a problem with this legal requirement to slow to 20kph when passing a school bus stopped to pick up or drop off children (and how the bloody hell can you tell if it is, or if the driver has just stopped to have a rest?) ON THE OPEN ROAD.

I don't have a problem slowing to 20kph when passing a school or a school bus in a 50kph zone, but if drivers in BOTH directions suddenly slowed to 20kph on a 100kph stretch of road then I can see the potential for pile-ups. What should I be doing on SH1 just north of the Waitarere Beach turn-off when passing Poroutawhao School? It's in a 100kph zone on SH1 - and school buses stop there to collect and drop off kids too. The school is on a straight stretch of road but you can't really tell it's a school until you get close to it. Are all motorists going in both directions required to slow to 20kph when passing the school? (I assume this only applies during school hours - but what about if there was a school function at night or on weekends?)

I personally feel that children - of all ages, as teenagers have also been killed crossing the road in these circumstances - should be taught to stop and wait until the bus has left before they cross, to both slow them down and increase their visibility. I live on a 100kph road and the road it joins is also 100kph and I have seen a teenager encourage his younger brother and sister to run across the road to wait for the bus (so there is NO requirement for me to slow down) when I am only about 50m away from them.

What happens in instances where a child runs across the road to WAIT for the school bus when the bus is not there yet? Do motorists travelling in both directions have a responsibility to slow to 20kph in all areas where children are likely to be picked up by a school bus? Many of these 'stops' are in private driveways, at intersections or just on the side of the road. Should all responsibility for crossing safely in 100kph areas be removed from these children as soon as a bus is factored into the equation? I don't think so, I think it's about time the onus was put on the parents and the children themselves. Yes, young children are not very roadwise but the parents should be there waiting for the bus - or the children should be in the care of older children - the responsibility for these children crossing the road safely should not be passed to the motorists.

[FJRider]

All idiot-proof laws gets you, is bigger idiots...

I have heard in court one idiot say ... there were no signs to say I couldn't ...

[FJRider]

And that is where I have a problem with this legal requirement to slow to 20kph when passing a school bus stopped to pick up or drop off children (and how the bloody hell can you tell if it is, or if the driver has just stopped to have a rest?) ON THE OPEN ROAD.

I don't have a problem slowing to 20kph when passing a school or a school bus in a 50kph zone, but if drivers in BOTH directions suddenly slowed to 20kph on a 100kph stretch of road then I can see the potential for pile-ups. What should I be doing on SH1 just north of the Waitarere Beach turn-off when passing Poroutawhao School? It's in a 100kph zone on SH1 - and school buses stop there to collect and drop off kids too. The school is on a straight stretch of road but you can't really tell it's a school until you get close to it. Are all motorists going in both directions required to slow to 20kph when passing the school? (I assume this only applies during school hours - but what about if there was a school function at night or on weekends?)



If the driver has dropped off all his passengers, he/she is required by law to cover/remove the school bus signs, and the 20 km/hr law no longer applies.

The 20 km/hr law is for when passing a bus, with School bus signs displayed, that has stopped, for the picking up or dropping off, of passengers (school children) This may happen outside normal hours expected.... ie. Evening school functions.

[6ft5]

and what is the responsibility of those parents, do they care, where are they ???

[oldrider]

School buses have two-foot wide fluro-yellow signs on them with the large word "SCHOOL" printed on.

If you cannot see this, please go and hand your license into the nearest police station until you've been to your local optometrist

If you're unable to slow down in time, then clearly you are already going too fast for the conditions, and deserve what you get for being a fucking tool.

The "school" signs that you mention are the ones that I meant could be possibly be made to "flash" when the bus is "stationary" and the doors are "open"!

I don't have any problem seeing the signs currently but a bus has to be stationary and have the doors open to allow children running in or out of the bus.

This would appear to be the time when most of these "accidents" occur and it could signal even greater care than normal is required.

There obviously is a problem and the thread poster asked for our thoughts, these are mine!

I don't disagree with your comments regarding speed but the flavour of your post does provoke me to ponder:

Does it take a lot of courage and practice to be a smartmouth behind a keyboard or does it just come naturally? :doh:

[Edbear]

... I don't think so, I think it's about time the onus was put on the parents and the children themselves. Yes, young children are not very roadwise but the parents should be there waiting for the bus - or the children should be in the care of older children - the responsibility for these children crossing the road safely should not be passed to the motorists.

I agree but not that responsibility not be with the motorists. All road users should be aware of potential hazards especially on rural roads. As bikers, we are all aware of the dangers of speeding on rural roads not knowing whether the next corner will obscure a tractor of a farm vehicle turning. In this case, we don't know if the car driver was exercising caution due to the presence of the school bus. The parents do need to take responsibility for their children's safety. In the case in question we don't know the family or even the incident circumstances and tragedy can happen for many reasons, not necessarily parental neglect.

The death I referred to earlier that also occured in that area involved an 8 year old boy who was accompanied by his older sister. He still managed to get hit by a truck right in front of her.

Sometimes parents just can't be there all the time but I guess we may find out more in due course about this incident.

[Beemer]

I agree but not that responsibility not be with the motorists. All road users should be aware of potential hazards especially on rural roads. As bikers, we are all aware of the dangers of speeding on rural roads not knowing whether the next corner will obscure a tractor of a farm vehicle turning...

I agree, all of us who ride or drive the roads need to be alert and ready to react should a hazard suddenly appear in front of us. But the point I was trying to make is the fact pedestrians should NOT be on the road in 100kph zones, no matter what their age. Yes, I realise they have to cross the road if they live on the other side, but a pedestrian suddenly running across the road in front of you in a 100kph zone when the road all around you is clear is not a hazard that happens every time you drive somewhere. I've seen these kids run out of their driveways and straight across the road (teenagers are some of the worst) and if you take your view to the extreme, we should all drive as though a pedestrian could suddenly run out like this in any place and at any time of the day.

Some responsibility does lie with the driver to avoid hazards on the road, but the parents and children also need to take some responsibility for their actions too. The children need to learn how to cross the road safely and if they are too young to do so, they should NOT be allowed to cross alone. You can't leave a child under the age of 14 alone in your home or your car, so if a young child is being dropped off outside their gate on the wrong side of the road in a 100kph area, then perhaps the bus driver - or a parent or other person who is on a roster to take care of young children leaving the bus - should be crossing with that child.

I hate hearing of incidents where a child has been killed or injured when crossing the road, but it seems to me to be if the bus is anywhere near the child, any accidents are automatically the fault of any driver passing. What if the bus had taken off and was 200m or so down the road when a car came around the corner just as a child ran across the road in front of him. If there is no bus stopped there, there is no requirement for him to be travelling at 20kph. The child may still be killed, but would he have a defence against hitting him? And what if it was an adult, running across the road to get the mail and not taking care?

I would like to ask all of you to answer this honestly - have YOU ever slowed to 20kph on the open road with a stream of traffic behind you when you saw a school bus on the side of the road - either side? I just think that it is dangerous because you often can't see the bus that clearly from a long distance so if you suddenly braked from 100kph to 20kph with other vehicles (especially trucks) behind you, what would happen? Would they all think "good on her, there's a school bus" or "fucking stupid cow, what the fuck does she think she's doing braking to a crawl on the open road?" I don't know if the police ever enforce this but I'd rather be ticketed for not slowing than have a milk tanker or a logging truck turn me into a hood ornament.

[Edbear]

I agree, all of us who ride or drive the roads need to be alert and ready to react ...(Snipity Snip)...a crawl on the open road?" I don't know if the police ever enforce this but I'd rather be ticketed for not slowing than have a milk tanker or a logging truck turn me into a hood ornament.

In zat case I does agree! :niceone:

[vifferman]

Perhaps an TV campaign should be highlighting that both traffic flows need to slow to 20km/h.

ROFL.
You mean, like an actual non-propaganda TV advertising campaign? Instead of "Speed kills" and other triteshite? :eek:
The Goobermunt living up to the "Education" part of their "3 E's" campaign to reduce the road toll to an arbitrary 300?

[Tui Moment]

[PirateJafa]

The "school" signs that you mention are the ones that I meant could be possibly be made to "flash" when the bus is "stationary" and the doors are "open"!

I don't have any problem seeing the signs currently but a bus has to be stationary and have the doors open to allow children running in or out of the bus.

This would appear to be the time when most of these "accidents" occur and it could signal even greater care than normal is required.

There obviously is a problem and the thread poster asked for our thoughts, these are mine!

I don't disagree with your comments regarding speed but the flavour of your post does provoke me to ponder:

Does it take a lot of courage and practice to be a smartmouth behind a keyboard or does it just come naturally? :doh:

Years in our country's tertiary institutions do wonders for breaking one's faith in the world, mate.

Now, I'm sure that making the signs "flashy" will make people pay more attention, for all of maybe two months. Just like when they first started putting the current "SCHOOL" signs on the buses.

However, in a few months they will have grown acclimatised to these, and they'll just fade into the background clutter again. If they don't notice a two-foot wide fluro yellow sign, they'll be able to "blank" out just about anything barring the ol' red'n blue lights.

The "flavour" of my post is because unfortunately I don't have much time nor compassion for incompetence, especially in a situation where they are in control of sometimes more than two tonnes of quickly moving metal.

[AD345]

I agree, all of us who ride or drive the roads need to be alert and ready to react should a hazard suddenly appear in front of us. But the point I was trying to make is the fact pedestrians should NOT be on the road in 100kph zones, no matter what their age. Yes, I realise they have to cross the road if they live on the other side, but a pedestrian suddenly running across the road in front of you in a 100kph zone when the road all around you is clear is not a hazard that happens every time you drive somewhere. I've seen these kids run out of their driveways and straight across the road (teenagers are some of the worst) and if you take your view to the extreme, we should all drive as though a pedestrian could suddenly run out like this in any place and at any time of the day.

As much as possible - yes we should. If travelling along a rural road at 100k or higher and you are NOT scanning driveways and the like for possible problems you are running a large risk of grief


Some responsibility does lie with the driver to avoid hazards on the road, but the parents and children also need to take some responsibility for their actions too. The children need to learn how to cross the road safely and if they are too young to do so, they should NOT be allowed to cross alone. You can't leave a child under the age of 14 alone in your home or your car, so if a young child is being dropped off outside their gate on the wrong side of the road in a 100kph area, then perhaps the bus driver - or a parent or other person who is on a roster to take care of young children leaving the bus - should be crossing with that child.
Agreed .
However - it is not solely parents who should be taking responsibility for children. We ALL should.


I hate hearing of incidents where a child has been killed or injured when crossing the road, but it seems to me to be if the bus is anywhere near the child, any accidents are automatically the fault of any driver passing. What if the bus had taken off and was 200m or so down the road when a car came around the corner just as a child ran across the road in front of him. If there is no bus stopped there, there is no requirement for him to be travelling at 20kph. The child may still be killed, but would he have a defence against hitting him? And what if it was an adult, running across the road to get the mail and not taking care?

The biggest time of risk, and hence the reason for the laws, is when the child is obscured by the bus. When the bus is not there then the child can be much more easily seen and, likewise, can see much more easily.


I would like to ask all of you to answer this honestly - have YOU ever slowed to 20kph on the open road with a stream of traffic behind you when you saw a school bus on the side of the road - either side? I just think that it is dangerous because you often can't see the bus that clearly from a long distance so if you suddenly braked from 100kph to 20kph with other vehicles (especially trucks) behind you, what would happen? Would they all think "good on her, there's a school bus" or "fucking stupid cow, what the fuck does she think she's doing braking to a crawl on the open road?" I don't know if the police ever enforce this but I'd rather be ticketed for not slowing than have a milk tanker or a logging truck turn me into a hood ornament.

Care less about what people think of your driving and more about your responsibility to other members of society. There are numerous scenarios where, for your OWN survival, you may need to suddenly decelerate from 100k to 20k. If you are in a position where you couldn't do so and survive - then you're in a bad position and need to get out of it.

I empathise with a lot of what you are saying - I used to say exactly the same things myself. After spending some time in Maine (US) where vehicles in both directions have to come to a complete stop for school buses letting off or picking up kids I have changed my view. It drove me up the wall initially but there was NO sympathy from other residents and I eventually came to accept it and then be a big fan of it. They have just as many rural roads as us with equally large trucks thundering along them - everyone stops.

[pzkpfw]

Perhaps an TV campaign should be highlighting that both traffic flows need to slow to 20km/h.

Like when they started publicising the indicate-left when you exit a roundabout rule; and now you get all these people indicating right.

I think we'd end up with people thinking they can accelerate to 120 to pass a bus, as long as they do it on the left and have their hazards on.



Adults are dumb.

Kids are like adults, but have smaller brains.

[Ixion]

..

Agreed .
However - it is not solely parents who should be taking responsibility for children. We ALL should.






Why ?

[AD345]

Why ?


A better question would be 'why not?"

However, We should all take some responsibility for those more vulnerable members of society, the young, the elderly, the disabled and so on.

It's what it means to be a member of a civilised society... a community. When you uphold a responsibility for a life you did not personally create (i.e. a child not your own), you engender a sense of community well being and safety. This reflects a greater morality than simply "why? not my kid, after all".

In a "why... after all" world sociopathy becomes the norm rather than the exception.

Personally, I'd rather live in a world where people do what's right simply because it's the right thing to do. After all, it might just be my kid that someone else saves, or my disabled sister that someone else lends a hand to, or my elderly mother that someone stops to help when she gets a flat tire.

I'd do it for you children, your family, your community. And, I'd do it for me, because it's the right thing to do.

[CookMySock]

a simple flashing light is very effective at waking people up who may not register the danger immediately. It is very well to say what "should" be, but the reality is that human beings are not that good at it.You can't spoon-feed people forever. They just shut down to hazards more and more if you do that.


All idiot-proof laws gets you, is bigger idiots... Exactly.

It's a fucken school bus. It's parked on the side of the road. Do the fucken math. No rocket science!

Steve

[Genestho]

AD345, Nice Post Dude. +1.

I don't have a problem slowing down for other peoples kids getting off a bus.
Being a minute or two late, is not a stress factor in my life.
I'd like other road users to slow down for my kids.
They have L Plates.
We as adults know better.
Stop the selfishness and Slow down.
Taking responsibility for yourself is quite a simple thing to do:msn-wink:

[oldrider]

Years in our country's tertiary institutions do wonders for breaking one's faith in the world, mate.

Now, I'm sure that making the signs "flashy" will make people pay more attention, for all of maybe two months. Just like when they first started putting the current "SCHOOL" signs on the buses.

However, in a few months they will have grown acclimatised to these, and they'll just fade into the background clutter again. If they don't notice a two-foot wide fluro yellow sign, they'll be able to "blank" out just about anything barring the ol' red'n blue lights.

The "flavour" of my post is because unfortunately I don't have much time nor compassion for incompetence, especially in a situation where they are in control of sometimes more than two tonnes of quickly moving metal.

So many men, so many opinions, I respect your right to have and express yours.

What I don't respect are the people (in authority) who carry titles and retrieve comencerate salaries but never face up to their responsibilities! :spanking:

Why are they retained when they do very little when it comes to taking "action" to improve obviously faulty systems and practices!

Public apathy? :o

What we all seem to agree on is that the current situation is faulty!

If we always do what we have always done, we shouldn't expect any different results. :doh:

If they wont change what they do, then lets have the strength to change them! :niceone:

[Ixion]

A better question would be 'why not?"

However, We should all take some responsibility for those more vulnerable members of society, the young, the elderly, the disabled and so on.

It's what it means to be a member of a civilised society... a community. When you uphold a responsibility for a life you did not personally create (i.e. a child not your own), you engender a sense of community well being and safety. This reflects a greater morality than simply "why? not my kid, after all".

In a "why... after all" world sociopathy becomes the norm rather than the exception.

Personally, I'd rather live in a world where people do what's right simply because it's the right thing to do. After all, it might just be my kid that someone else saves, or my disabled sister that someone else lends a hand to, or my elderly mother that someone stops to help when she gets a flat tire.

I'd do it for you children, your family, your community. And, I'd do it for me, because it's the right thing to do.


No. I will take *care* for vulnerable or fragile people. Including children .I will not take responsibility for them . If I am to take *responsibility* for your children , then I am going to demand a say in their upbringing and training. Which I strongly suspect you would not like at all. I have very definate opinions on such matters. Which are not at all PC .

I will (and do) take *care* around children. I will ensure (or do my best, anyway) that I can stop when they run out onto the road in front of me. But if I am *responsible* , then after taking the necessary evasive action, I will (a) be taking them to a place of safetey , since manifestly you (a hypothetical you, not necessarily a personal you) are not capable of properly caring for them . And (b) I will be round at your place reading *you* the riot act , and telling you how to raise them in futire., After all, I'm responsible.

You bred them. Your responsibility, Stop trying to shuffle out of it (again, hypothetical you)

All care. No responsibility.

[AD345]

No. I will take *care* for vulnerable or fragile people. Including children .I will not take responsibility for them . If I am to take *responsibility* for your children , then I am going to demand a say in their upbringing and training. Which I strongly suspect you would not like at all. I have very definate opinions on such matters. Which are not at all PC .

I will (and do) take *care* around children. I will ensure (or do my best, anyway) that I can stop when they run out onto the road in front of me. But if I am *responsible* , then after taking the necessary evasive action, I will (a) be taking them to a place of safetey , since manifestly you (a hypothetical you, not necessarily a personal you) are not capable of properly caring for them . And (b) I will be round at your place reading *you* the riot act , and telling you how to raise them in futire., After all, I'm responsible.

You bred them. Your responsibility, Stop trying to shuffle out of it (again, hypothetical you)

All care. No responsibility.

That's an incredibly simplistic view of community dynamics. You posit an "all or nothing" scenario where there are no differing levels of responsibility.

To be a responsible member of the commnity and make an effort to impart some of your knowledge and experience to a child seems to be beyond you.

To take your position to its logical extreme the role of teachers come with the burden of raising every individual that they have the responsibility of educating.

You (hypothetical you) choose to live in a community comprised in part of vulnerable and fragile people. Stop trying to shuffle out of the responsiblity that comes with being a member of it.

[Ixion]

I should have mentioned, BTW, that if I am to be responsible for your children, then I also demand a say in whether you have them in the first place. And the answer is going to be "No" in almost every case. For reasons that this thread should make self evident.

You make the decision to have children. They are your responsibility. If you want me to be repsonsible for them, then you must ask my permission fisrst. You didn't, I'm not.

[Trouser]

The 20 km/hr law is for when passing a bus, with School bus signs displayed, that has stopped, for the picking up or dropping off, of passengers (school children) This may happen outside normal hours expected.... ie. Evening school functions.

I wish the retarded bus company here used their "school" signs. I pass a school bus every day on my way to work and they never have signs. I have asked them but received no reply.

[FJRider]

I wish the retarded bus company here used their "school" signs. I pass a school bus every day on my way to work and they never have signs. I have asked them but received no reply.

This may sound over the top ... but ... they are required BY LAW, when transporting schoolchildren, to display "School Bus" signs. If they are NOT displayed, vehicles are NOT required to slow to 20 km/hr to pass them. A kid may die because of that. A phone call to the non urgent local police station to inform them will do wonders in this regard.

[Trouser]

If they are not on in the morning then I'll phone the local station.

[AD345]

I should have mentioned, BTW, that if I am to be responsible for your children, then I also demand a say in whether you have them in the first place. And the answer is going to be "No" in almost every case. For reasons that this thread should make self evident.

You make the decision to have children. They are your responsibility. If you want me to be repsonsible for them, then you must ask my permission fisrst. You didn't, I'm not.

As I said in my previous post you (hypothetical you) should take a measure of responsibility for vulnerable or fraigile members of your community.

I'm not asking you to raise my (hypothetical me) kids, I'm asking that you take an adult responsibility for members of your community over and above those directly related to you.

Would you feel no responsibility to take the keys from a drunk if you could do so?
Having done so - would you then demand the right to tell them how to live their life?

[Mom]

um, how are we supposed to answer that one?:doh:

Like this :blip:


Does any one else find this a problem or am I just getting a bit old and doddery? :doh:

No, it is just you :yes:

I actually agree with you, it is not easy to know what the posted speed limit is if you are not familiar with the area.

Going past a school bus that is stopped to let kids off though is a no brainer for me, slow right down, yes, heaven forbid to 20 kph, and putter past looking out for kiddlies darting out in front of you.


He used to personally escort the kids across the road and then give the mothers a right royal bollicking.

I lived rurally when my kids were at school and they were school bus travellers from day one. When they were really little I used to walk down to the end of the drive and see them on to the bus in the morning, was on our side of the road heading into town. After school, I used to walk to the end of the drive and cross the road and wait for the bus to drop them off, and then we would practise safe road crossing skills. I did that everyday for a long time, either my kids were slow learners or I was a paranoid mother who needed to be very certain they knew what not to do before I could let them cross the road unsupervised.

Not rocket science really.

Very sad to hear of children killed crossing roads off school buses.

[Ixion]

As I said in my previous post you (hypothetical you) should take a measure of responsibility for vulnerable or fraigile members of your community.

I'm not asking you to raise my (hypothetical me) kids, I'm asking that you take an adult responsibility for members of your community over and above those directly related to you.

Would you feel no responsibility to take the keys from a drunk if you could do so?
Having done so - would you then demand the right to tell them how to live their life?

No, I would not, if only the drunk were involved. The drunk makes his own decisions. He must live with the consequences. If those were certain (not merely lilely, who am I to judge) to endanger others, then yes I would take his keys. And then I most certainly would demand the right to tell him how to live his life. If I am forced to accept responsibility for something then I also demand the right to manage that responsibility.

I ride daily through South Auckland. I see many children. In the great majority of cases, if I am responsible for those children, then I am going to explictly demand major changes in their lives. Starting with removal from parents manifestly unfit to raise them in a manner of which I (as a responsible party) approve.

If I am responsible for (hypothetical) your children, then it would be irresponsible of me not to ensure that they are raised in a manner and to a standard that meets my approval. Those who wish me to accept responsibility for their children are welcome to PM me with details of how they are raising (or intend to raise) them; along with their intentions as to education, religious instruction, school and academic roadmaps etc. Preferably BEFORE the conception of the sprogs. Somehow I do not think I will have many takers .

Parents of children always have this strange attitude that they have done the world a wondrous service by bringing another squalling brat into it. I see no such benefit to an overcrowded planet. The more so considering the personal attributes of 90% of the progenitors.

I am saved from total misanthropy only because I sometimes have the priviledge of social interaction with some of the younger members of this site (mainly those who lurk in the SMC and LOTPIHGAD forums). Whom I would happily accept responsibility for, save that they neither need nor expect anyone to be responsible for them . And would I am certain be indignant at the idea. But , of course, they are bikers, so a higher standard than the average is only to be expected. I am encouraged to believe by their example that there is still some hope for the human race. Indeed , so much so that sometimes I am almost tempted to rejoin it.

Also, BTW, unless you are a lot older than is probable, I did not choose to live in your community. You chose to live in mine. You are always welcome to leave it. Door's on your left.

[Beemer]

I should have mentioned, BTW, that if I am to be responsible for your children, then I also demand a say in whether you have them in the first place. And the answer is going to be "No" in almost every case. For reasons that this thread should make self evident.

You make the decision to have children. They are your responsibility. If you want me to be responsible for them, then you must ask my permission first. You didn't, I'm not.

I agree 100% with Ixion here. I don't have children - a choice made by my husband and me jointly - so I in no way feel 'responsible' for other people's children. If a kid puts itself in a dangerous situation, it is not MY job to do something about it. I remember once trying to point out to a parent that their child was in danger or hurting itself and being told to "keep your fucking nose out of it" so I won't make that mistake again.

As Ixion said, a lot of people should never have kids because they aren't responsible enough to care for them. Unfortunately the general public has no say in the matter so they should not be held responsible for those children.

I don't feel responsible for every child in this world just as I don't feel responsible for every criminal or dangerous driver, etc. I will take action if I am put in danger or if it personally affects me in some way, but otherwise it is not my job to look after someone else's problems. If that sounds selfish, too bad. You have kids, you look after them. I'll take all reasonable care when they are in my presence, but they are NOT my responsibility.

AD345 said "If travelling along a rural road at 100k or higher and you are NOT scanning driveways and the like for possible problems you are running a large risk of grief" - like most of us, I DO scan constantly when riding or driving. Hazards are more likely to be avoidable if this rule is followed - but if someone ran straight out of a driveway in front of me, that would not be a hazard I'd be expecting. When an animal does this, it's because a fence has been breached or a gate left open - and it's the owner's responsibility - but the animal has no road awareness at any age and has never been taught how to cross the road properly. I think Mom had the right approach - take responsibility for your children until you are POSITIVE they can be trusted to cross the road safely.

[Genestho]

[QUOTE=Mom;1129216809]Like this :blip:



lol, nice eyebrows Mom, but can ya wiggle your ears hehe!!!

Sure parents, and their children have responsibilty, but as road users we have our license as a privelege, not a right.

Beemer. Your statement is indicative of a woman with no children.
I mean nothing by saying that, I thought similarly before children.

I suggest, "You'll" (Borrow's Ixions hypothetical 'you' guy) find most people without kids think this way, vs parents, who have spent 5 nights in a row getting up to sick kids or staying late with them when teething or cleaning up after tummy bugs, tend to have more of a community, and empathetic outlook on children and their safety.

It really does take a community to keep our children safe, always has, always will.

To assume something is not your problem, because it doesn't or won't affect "you" is blind. (borrows Ixions hypothetical you guy again)
Society on all levels, constantly reaps the consequences of that pattern of thinking.

Don't assume in theory that most parents don't educate their children from their ability to stand, walk and run... to look before crossing roads.

I think "you'd" also find kids and young adults, don't quite comprehend the finality of irresponsible actions, unless they've witnessed or lived through it.

"That will never happen to me" is a common theme. In both Adults and Children.
That, is why these things are called accidents.
Assume anything can happen, and quite often does.

Children are NOW species, whatever is going on their lives NOW is what comes first quite often in the brain process.

Hypothetically speaking, we don't know this 12 year child hadn't been teased on the bus before he got off eh?
We will never know why he wandered onto the road.

[Skyryder]

School buses could have flashing lights that come on when the doors are opened, at least switched to active when they are in service and carrying children!

The signals could be installed front and rear and when active "so is the speed limit"

I would like to see more of the "revenue" collected being spent on safety upgrades to existing traffic problems.

I.E. More clearly defined speed restricted area notices or road markings!

It is sometimes (as a stranger to an area) difficult to define just what speed you are limited to!

Surrounding traffic is often "no" indication and it's a long time between notices in some places.

Does any one else find this a problem or am I just getting a bit old and doddery? :doh:

It's a good idea Old rider. All they need to do is to have a flasher unit connected to both brake and indicator lights so that the unit is activated when the doors are opened. There would need to be an on off switch for when the bus has no students on board.


Skyryder

[CookMySock]

If I am forced to accept responsibility for something then I also demand the right to manage that responsibility.Yup. It is possible to care too much, and to feel overloaded by the inadequacy and grief that comes from not having enough influence to make a difference. I choose to let society go to hell in a handcart if they so wish - it's not my heart attack. People go maim themselves and others everyday, but its not me - I didn't do it, and I don't have to fix it. It is not that I do not feel for them - I feel for them enormously, and that has been a huge problem for me to get over, but I cannot change it, and there I must release my grip on it.

Too serious?

Steve

[Skyryder]

People go maim themselves and others everyday, but its not me - I didn't do it, and I don't have to fix it. It is not that I do not feel for them - I feel for them enormously, and that has been a huge problem for me to get over, but I cannot change it, and there I must release my grip on it.

Too serious?

Steve


Pure Zen. :niceone:



Skyryder

[avgas]

both legs have a chance at breaking, the head will hit both the bonnet and the road surface and may crack the skull. A wrist will be damaged (or break) due to the child putting it out to defend itself.

I'm not saying its as bad as 50kph hit, im just saying EVERYTHING POSSIBLE needs to be done to prevent these instances. In this case - the parents needed to walk the damn kid across the road if they have a concern. But now they have no child - so no lesson can be learned here.

[Mully]

In my youf (I'm 28 for reference purposes), we had to do a thing at Primary School where we learnt and practised safety on and around roads (it was called something wanky like "Pedestrian Passport" or some such) with the local community copper and our teachers.

It included getting off buses, crossing roads with and without parked cars being there and so on (from memory, it even included meeting dogs on the footpath). If you passed, you got given your "Pedestrian Passport"

Does anyone with Sprogs know if the same or a similar thing is still done? Seems to be (given my lack of "getting-knocked-over-getting-off-bus") that it was effective.

[Beemer]

...Beemer. Your statement is indicative of a woman with no children.
I mean nothing by saying that, I thought similarly before children.

I suggest, "You'll" (Borrow's Ixions hypothetical 'you' guy) find most people without kids think this way, vs parents, who have spent 5 nights in a row getting up to sick kids or staying late with them when teething or cleaning up after tummy bugs, tend to have more of a community, and empathetic outlook on children and their safety.

It really does take a community to keep our children safe, always has, always will.

To assume something is not your problem, because it doesn't or won't affect "you" is blind. (borrows Ixions hypothetical you guy again)
Society on all levels, constantly reaps the consequences of that pattern of thinking...

Sorry, but this is a load of crap! I usually find that most parents, after spending five nights looking after a sick kid, are pretty unpleasant to be around! Having kids of your own does NOT make you Mother Theresa (hey, she didn't have kids either...) and it does not automatically make you a caring person. Look at NZ's appalling record of child abuse - the majority of it carried out by the child's parent or caregiver, not some adult without kids. If it takes a community to look after children, then we're pretty crap at it, aren't we?

I care about a lot of things, but I do not feel personally responsible for them. I treat others with respect and expect that in return. But I will not be held responsible for other people's actions.

[Genestho]

Beemer.
I, am not asking "you" to be responsible for other peoples children, but be responsible for "your" own actions, therefore caring about your community.

To slow down around a school bus, is to be responsible for "your" actions. Eh?

Yes, 5 nights with crook kids makes a woman unpleasant, but from this and other maternal hats worn, you gain the insight to think and care about somebody else, instead of only "yourself" for a change.

Is it possible to have the same amount of empathy being childless, who knows?
I've been in your shoes as a childless woman, but you have never walked mine, are you qualified to know the difference?
Again who knows. Not important.

Nobody has the right to tell you, how to think or act. That is up to "you"

Your points on child abuse are true, totally agree on that one.
We have one of the worst rates of parental induced child abuse, and incest, per capita in the world.

[Beemer]

Beemer.
I, am not asking "you" to be responsible for other peoples children, but be responsible for "your" own actions, therefore caring about your community.

To slow down around a school bus, is to be responsible for "your" actions. Eh?...

Is it possible to have the same amount of empathy being childless, who knows?
I've been in your shoes as a childless woman, but you have never walked mine, are you qualified to know the difference?
Again who knows. Not important...

I still say that slowing to 20kph from 100kph in either direction on the open road is asking for trouble and I think it's a stupid law. It was obviously designed to apply to school areas in 50kph zones and I think it needs reviewing. If a child can run across the road at any time and you think I should be driving with that thought in mind all the time, then you ARE asking me to be responsible for other people's children when they are obviously not taking that responsibility seriously themselves.

Is it possible to have the same amount of empathy being childless - of course it is! If you think it is not, then you are wrong.

No, I've never had kids - but I don't think that means my views are worth any less than yours - and to throw it back at you, are YOU qualified to know the difference?

"Again, who knows. Not important..." If it's not important, why raise it in the first place?

[CookMySock]

I agree it's dangerous to suddenly slow to 20k/hr on the open road. I would be checking my rear view every few seconds in such a scenario. In an emergency situation it would be a very hard call what or who to hit, and not much time to make a decision.

Regardless of differing opinion, we are all still on the same side, and it because we care that we debate it.

It's nearly beer time! ;)

Steve

[Genestho]

I still say that slowing to 20kph from 100kph in either direction on the open road is asking for trouble and I think it's a stupid law. It was obviously designed to apply to school areas in 50kph zones and I think it needs reviewing.

Agreed, it does need reviewing.

If a child can run across the road at any time and you think I should be driving with that thought in mind all the time, then you ARE asking me to be responsible for other people's children when they are obviously not taking that responsibility seriously themselves.

Yep, that's right, children quite often don't take responsibility seriously themselves.
Look, I think we'll have to agree to disagree here, I can only wonder at why you allude slowing down, being a problem for you, knowing kids don't think the same as adults?

Is it possible to have the same amount of empathy being childless - of course it is! If you think it is not, then you are wrong.

No, I've never had kids - but I don't think that means my views are worth any less than yours - and to throw it back at you, are YOU qualified to know the difference?

At no point have I indicated your view is not important. Everyone has an opinion and the right to use it. As you will know, if we all thought the same, it'd be a very boring world.

What qualifies me to know the difference is this line I wrote:
I've been in your shoes as a childless woman, but you have never walked mine
What I mean't by that, is I understand the difference of not having children,
and how unintentionally self absorbed vs the total opposite when raising children, some people say having kids makes them a better person because of the difference in lifestyles

"Again, who knows. Not important..." If it's not important, why raise it in the first place?
An exercise of illustrating a difference and possibly reasoning, of your viewpoint, unimportant to the thread topic itself.
I have noticed people without children, seem to appear less tolerable of kids downfalls, vs parents.



Dude, please don't take my observation personally, that's not what I had intended, and I apologise if you have.

[AD345]

No, I would not, if only the drunk were involved. The drunk makes his own decisions. He must live with the consequences.

And how, pray tell, do you ascertain that only the drunk will be involved?

....never mind.

We go on:

If those were certain (not merely lilely, who am I to judge) to endanger others, then yes I would take his keys. And then I most certainly would demand the right to tell him how to live his life. If I am forced to accept responsibility for something then I also demand the right to manage that responsibility.

If you feel that this responsibility is something that can only accept if it is forced upon you it explains much.



...(a lot of other stuff in the same vein demanding rights by dint of excercising adult responsibility.)

We fundamentally disagree on the roles of adults in a community and broader aspects of responsibility. You see responsibility as an imposition that must be leavened with accompanying authority, where I view it as a basic compact to living in a civilised society.

You explicitly accept no responsibility towards children of others because you disagree with the way they are raised and, as you have no right to have all children raised according to your views, they must all fend for themselves.

By definition it would seem you then live in a community of one, but nonetheless choose to interact with my community of many.

The door is straight ahead - don't let it hit you on the arse.

[Beemer]

Dude, please don't take my observation personally, that's not what I had intended, and I apologise if you have.

As Steve said, it's good we're debating this and a lot of us have similar views even if expressed differently!

My comment about being "responsible for other people's children when they are obviously not taking that responsibility seriously themselves" was aimed at the parents - I totally realise kids don't always understand the consequences of their actions. Mom posted that she used to walk across to the other side of the road with her young child and then teach them about crossing the road safely on the way back. THAT is the kind of responsibility parents should be showing. If a child can't think for themselves or doesn't have the same thought pattern as an adult, then it should be the parents' responsibility to look after that child until they are independent thinkers and can be trusted to make the right decision (although that is not guaranteed).

We will have to agree to disagree on some things though - it's not just the childless who are intolerant of children and their failings! Some of us are in fact more tolerant because we don't have to deal with it 24/7!

I like the fact this thread hasn't deteriorated into a shit-fight and red rep isn't being dished out for differing opinions.

[bull]

I like the fact this thread hasn't deteriorated into a shit-fight and red rep isn't being dished out for differing opinions.

Too true, from peoples feedback i have learnt that the 20km/h applies to both sides of the traffic flow (something i have never noticed in action), and on top of this it has highlighted that there are people out there who think that parents need to do a better job of teaching their own kids some responsibility.

I have three boys 12, 9 and 7 and i still hold the younger boys hands when crossing roads and keep on reminding them about checking left and right, this is how i was taught from my parents and no doubt my kids, kids will learn in the same way.

I understand the peoples thoughts of if you have children you are responsible to teach them - im of the thought that if i look after my family and everyone else looks after theirs then the world would be a better place. Unfortunately too many families out there dont seem to put as much effort in as they should, and thus I can see why we may need to step in and offer some good safe advice if a member of our community (kids and adults) are in need.

The 20km/h rule does seem to be specifically targetted for a 50km/h zone and something needs to be done to make the bus stop areas in the 100km/h zones safer for the motorists (slowing to 20km on a 100km/h is a risk in itself). Simply having a parent to pick up the kid on the same side of the dropoff would take care of this but that would be common sense and that unfortunately is what so many let go of in the rush of life (rain, bad day, in a hurry).

Thank you to all whom contributed to the thread it has been a very educational read for me.

[Shadows]

Schools are only busy for half an hour each end of the day.

Kids are impulsive and can move pretty quickly.

Slow the fuck down past schools and school buses at those times. Simple.



Oh yes, and if you need to read the "School Bus" sign on the back of a fucking great bus parked outside a school to realise it is, in fact, a school bus, then you should have your license revoked for being a stupid cunt.

[Beemer]

Schools are only busy for half an hour each end of the day.

Kids are impulsive and can move pretty quickly.

Slow the fuck down past schools and school buses at those times. Simple.

Oh yes, and if you need to read the "School Bus" sign on the back of a fucking great bus parked outside a school to realise it is, in fact, a school bus, then you should have your license revoked for being a stupid cunt.

Have to disagree there - school buses are often used outside of school start and finish times to transport kids to sporting and cultural events so they could be there at any time of the day.

The problem with school buses is that they are not just found near schools and that is the point I have been trying to make - there is one place they stop on the Opiki Road that is about 50m past a blind corner - and the corner is rated 85kph so I can imagine the carnage if the front car in peak traffic in the morning suddenly braked to 20kph. There is no way the cars behind would have any warning and once they came around the corner they wouldn't even have 100m of clear road in which to stop.

There are house buses, school buses, air force and army buses, coach buses, etc on the roads during the day and those school signs aren't exactly flashing neon so while it may be obvious it's a school bus if it's parked outside a school, if you are in a line of traffic doing 100kph, that's another matter.

[Genestho]

No, I would not, if only the drunk were involved. The drunk makes his own decisions. He must live with the consequences.

*Coughs* Believes I live in the world of daily and real consequences, a drunk drivers decision - or lack of, have caused mine and other families.
I'm sure you didn't mean that innocents are never involved.


Beemer.
Opiki eh? Used to live not far myself, a LONG time ago!

I see what you're saying in that instance. I wonder if there was a sign prior to these types of dropoff zones - to warn traffic to slow down for buses in 100km areas?
(Has that already been said?)
Personally - I'm just not sure how NOT slowing around a School bus, quite big and usually clearly signed, can really be justified, but I do see what you're saying!

I agree to the picking up of the children from buses.

If I can get my boy to the bus on time (HAH! Yeah right.) he gets helped up the steps, and I'll pick him up from his side of the road. He's got the message well drummed in, but I, knowing him well, don't trust his ability to cross safely on his own.

At 12 you'd think the chances of this would be minimised, but, obviously not.

Like I said kid's are NOW species.
Better "What If" then "What could've been done to prevent this"
Good Thread, I feel educated even if opinions differ, it's been said already, at least everyone who's posted gives a damn in some way :niceone:

[Lissa]

If you are approaching a school or school bus you should be slowing down anyway especially during the peak times of 8.30am - 9am and 3pm to about 3.30pm. Kids can cross roads, and aren't always paying attention or using the appropriate crossings.

As for school buses dropping off/picking up kids from the main road, there should be signs posted alerting to the fact that there could be a school bus stopped ahead, so everyone should be at least aware they may have to slow down.

Maybe the open road speed should be brought down to 70km on school bus routes? If it means that it is easier to slow down to 20km when passing one? Dont know, all I know is you can teach your child road rules and safety but sometimes they lack the decision making and make rash choices which can result in them running across a road in front of a vehicle. I know my children have done this at least once but were just lucky no vehicles were on the road, but once is too much they all got a good telling off :spanking:

[FROSTY]

Ya know wouldn't it be a wonderfull world if all we had to say was "Use Common Sense"

As a dad of a kid or two I can clearly see both sides of the road safety issues here.

[NighthawkNZ]

It is sometimes (as a stranger to an area) difficult to define just what speed you are limited to!

Surrounding traffic is often "no" indication and it's a long time between notices in some places.

Does any one else find this a problem or am I just getting a bit old and doddery? :doh:

I many times forget there is a school and or never knew it was there... and yes worse if I don't live in the area... ;)

[Beemer]

Maybe the open road speed should be brought down to 70km on school bus routes? If it means that it is easier to slow down to 20km when passing one? Dont know, all I know is you can teach your child road rules and safety but sometimes they lack the decision making and make rash choices which can result in them running across a road in front of a vehicle. I know my children have done this at least once but were just lucky no vehicles were on the road, but once is too much they all got a good telling off :spanking:

Unfortunately I can't see that working - in some case it would mean huge distances being set at 70kph - like between Shannon and Palmerston North, and a lot of other back country areas. I like the idea of warning signs and driver education - I wouldn't have a problem slowing to 20kph if EVERYONE knew you were meant to do so, if there were warning signs telling you that this was a school bus area and whenever a school bus was stopped to pick up or drop off children you had to slow to that speed in both directions, etc.

As I headed home this afternoon I came around a corner just as the school bus that had stopped across the side road to drop off a group of teenagers pulled out without indicating. The oncoming traffic I'd passed before reaching the bus had not slowed down at all that I could see, and as I'd come around a blindish corner (a hedge along the side of the road so visibility isn't great) and the bus was already pulling out, neither had I. What is the rule in this instance? The bus was pulling out but the kids were still standing there and it looked like some were waiting to cross the road. I must confess I wasn't impressed to have the driver pull out without indicating as he was doing about 10kph when I spotted him and I was lucky the vehicles behind me had only just entered a 100kph zone when this happened or I would most likely have been rear-ended by one of them.

[Ixion]

No, I would not, if only the drunk were involved. The drunk makes his own decisions. He must live with the consequences. *Coughs* Believes I live in the world of daily and real consequences, a drunk drivers decision - or lack of, have caused mine and other families. I'm sure you didn't mean that innocents are never involved.
And how, pray tell, do you ascertain that only the drunk will be involved? ....never mind. Sigh. Google grammar pluperfect subjunctive form . I knew this would be the result once Latin was no longer compulsory in schools.

[DougB]

I drove a school bus every school day for twenty seven years. The only accidents in that time were when two responsible people observing the 20k limit were rear ended.

Being a teacher I was able to severely discipline any of my passengers who did not take the proper precautions before crossing the road.

[gatch]

I think maybe that too many lazy kids get dropped at school in the car by lazy parents on the way to work. For most school is within 20-30 minutes walking yeah ?

Take the time to educate the little cunts and make em walk, I did, until I got a push bike. I never had any trouble until at college I got a motorbike and some asshole picking up his son decided it would be a good idea to turn in front of me.. Go figure..

Less cars, less statistics..

Also something people could do is drive to work a different way so you aren't passing schools/buses. Probably not practicle for some (motorways/school up the street etc) it might take a minute or 2 extra, could even save you time cause you don't have to wait for all the lazy parents who are queued up..

No I don't have kids, but everyone else in my family does, so I know the drill.

Just my thoughts.

[Naki Rat]

Having just spent 3 weeks on holiday driving 4,500km through Victoria, NSW & Queensland I was surprised at how 'disciplined' the local drivers were in comparison to NZ drivers. It was unusual to see anybody exceeding the posted speed limit by more than 5-10 kmh, despite posted limits changing confusingly often and with no apparent reason in many cases. Driving habits might have something to do with armed cops and illegal radar detectors.

And to further confuse the issue 40 or 60 kmh limits (http://www.aami.com.au/Resources/File.aspx?id=69) exist near any school from 8.00 - 9.30 am and 2.30 - 4.30 pm and these limits are generally adhered to. Similar limits are posted on school buses which have signage, and flashing lights when picking up or dropping off kids.

Not a big deal to slow down near schools for the alert driver and certainly less draconian than the pop out stop signs and flashing lights fitted on school buses in North America which stop traffic in both directions when buses are picking up/dropping off kids.
http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/graphics/english/safety/schoolbus/2b4_4.jpg

So what makes New Zealand drivers such cowboys ? Are we just enjoying freedoms that will ultimately disappear as the liability industry invades our lives as is happening in Australia, and has long ago happened in North America, and compulsory safety replaces good old common sense ? Or are we just generally piss-poor drivers? :jerry:

[Genestho]

O Ixion, quite aside from the content.
I ask for your mercifull forgiveness in the travesty of the abuse and massacre of the grammatically incorrect written word!:bleh:

Gatch, I agree.
I used to walk to school, in the snow and bare feet! (Now I'm being silly! Quoting what the elders used to say!)

That's a mighty fine idea suggesting kids walk to school like we used to, in a surburban area, but rurally - I'd assume mobs of littlies on the sides of roads, could cause sphincter inducing collapse for motorists.

Also I'm not sure about parents being lazy, with the wants and needs, both parents requiring to work...
Technology supposedly making life easier yet, speeding the pace on our demanding lives.
Some parents just don't have time for a walk 40 mins each way.

The way I recall it, back in the 70's the highlights of a womans day was to see kids off, do gardening, housework and natter with neighbours.
Flick through TV channels 1 or 2 (Maybe that bit was the '80s).
Life is a bit more abundant for parents these days.
I'm not making excuses, just chalking up the difference in times.
Personally if my kids walked, I'd have to walk with them for a long time to come.

Maybe if possible - avoid rural bus routes that are littered with blind corners?
Seems a bit simplistic though. Not everyone can do that.

Might it be overzealous to suggest lower open road speed limits in rural areas on rural bus routes? (eek)

Naki Rat, I lived in Queensland for a while, and I rarely saw speeding over 5 km's, also I noted if I needed to get into a line of traffic, there was a gap left for me to do so, without drama.
I recon you hit the nail on both heads Naki Rat:niceone:

[oldrider]

I drove a school bus every school day for twenty seven years. The only accidents in that time were when two responsible people observing the 20k limit were rear ended.

Being a teacher I was able to severely discipline any of my passengers who did not take the proper precautions before crossing the road.

(1) One of my greatest concerns while riding my bike in urban areas!

(2) Interesting comment there Doug, how did that differ or relate to todays conditions?

Serious question, seeking serious reply. (in other words I am genuinely interested in your reply)

[Beemer]

Having just spent 3 weeks on holiday driving 4,500km through Victoria, NSW & Queensland I was surprised at how 'disciplined' the local drivers were in comparison to NZ drivers. It was unusual to see anybody exceeding the posted speed limit by more than 5-10 kmh, despite posted limits changing confusingly often and with no apparent reason in many cases. Driving habits might have something to do with armed cops and illegal radar detectors.

We noticed that when on our two trips to Australia too - get within 20m of a pedestrian crossing and the traffic stops in both directions! We did find most drivers very courteous and we rarely heard anyone toot either. If you were waiting to enter the flow of traffic from a side road or parking area, you only had to wait for a few seconds before someone stopped to let you in. I wonder why the majority of NZ drivers ARE so aggressive? You'd think with fewer cars and less clogged roads we'd be a bit calmer!

My husband was heading home the other night when a guy towing a trailer pulled straight out of a side road and crossed in front of him, causing him to brake. When he tooted the immediate response was a raised finger from the other driver. Whatever happened to the "sorry" wave that people used to give when they knew they were in the wrong? Every time I've had someone do a U-turn in front of me, pull out without indicating, fail to give way, etc and I flash my lights or toot, I get abused as if I am in the wrong.

[Genestho]

When he tooted the immediate response was a raised finger from the other driver. Whatever happened to the "sorry" wave that people used to give when they knew they were in the wrong? Every time I've had someone do a U-turn in front of me, pull out without indicating, fail to give way, etc and I flash my lights or toot, I get abused as if I am in the wrong.

That my friend, is called called "NZ's Defensive Driving School"....a school too many motorists, belong to here.

[alanzs]

If I had a dollar for everytime I see a car speeding through the school area I would be rich. I have seen cars go around the "lollipop" poles because they didn't want to wait. They almost mowed over a couple of kids.

NZ has no monopoly on shitty driving, but around a school is different.

[AD345]

Sigh. Google grammar pluperfect subjunctive form . I knew this would be the result once Latin was no longer compulsory in schools.


http://i42.tinypic.com/xljpeh.jpg