Mnz agm

[BJT666]

The imput from everyone into the issues facing MNZ on this website has been fantastic.

How many of you will be attending the WORKSHOPS and the AGM next weekend in Wellington.

Unfortunately with the demise of the OLD style Conference, there is really no forum for people to voice their opinions, other that on sites like this one.

Thanks for that KB

However next weekend, there will be WORKSHOPS on all sections of OUR Sport.

So if you will be unable to attend, maybe you could post your thoughts here, so those of US, who will be attending will have a wider set of views to work on during the discussions.

JIM T

[k14]

One aspect of the rules has always been an annoyance to me and that is the red flag rule. Many a time I have been in a race where a red flag has been pulled out due to someone crashing. The current practice is to go back a lap and award the points based on the standings then. Most of the time the person that caused the red flag gets awarded the position they were in before their accident.

In auzzie and some other countries the red flag causer is excluded from the results. Personally I cannot see why this rule couldn't be bought in to NZ racing. The other thing is that this actively encourages a rider to "play dead" when he/she has a minor off so that the red flag is pulled out and they get points which is very unfair imo. Someone should not be rewarded for crashing!

Just a thought anyway.

[Biggles08]

One aspect of the rules has always been an annoyance to me and that is the red flag rule. Many a time I have been in a race where a red flag has been pulled out due to someone crashing. The current practice is to go back a lap and award the points based on the standings then. Most of the time the person that caused the red flag gets awarded the position they were in before their accident.

In auzzie and some other countries the red flag causer is excluded from the results. Personally I cannot see why this rule couldn't be bought in to NZ racing. The other thing is that this actively encourages a rider to "play dead" when he/she has a minor off so that the red flag is pulled out and they get points which is very unfair imo. Someone should not be rewarded for crashing!

Just a thought anyway.

That exact situation happened to me this weekend at the Actrix Winter series Round 1 at Taupo...Brian Wood had a pretty bad off and was in 2nd position and was down...the race was flagged and he ended up getting his second position. I agree it seems unfair and not a natural outcome. I was sure I got a 3rd but ended up with only a 4th :-(

[cowpoos]

The imput from everyone into the issues facing MNZ on this website has been fantastic.

While this site is looked upon by SOME non members as a herd of idiots and armchair experts...I think a couple of things need to be realised by outsiders.

1) We mostly know who each other are on here...and have real names and are involved in many degrees with the sport.

2) Non members of kiwibiker in the racing community are the minority I would have to say.

3) We almost have the top ten kiwi riders in each class as members. [that sort of experience and insight is worth alot!!]

4) This website has heaps of industry leaders and members...and if not members...its well known they read and watch in the backround.

This website is the largest gathering of people in motorcycling in new Zealand...that gather and discuss all things motorcycling.

So...dismissing a voice this big is just plan daft really!!

Jim T....you have been very wise to join here and listen to concerns.

Its a shame others havn't...I would prefer to here about the other side of the coin. Learn reasoning,etc... its hard to pass a personal opinion/judgement on something with out the whole story...

[Racey Rider]

That - You must walk away to safety and leave your bike on the track - rule was interesting at the Vic club R1.

So a guy bins it in quaifing.... and has to leave his bike there on the exit of a fast corner. The bike may be still rideable - but he has to leave it there, stuffing his qualifying session all the more. But now it's stuffing everybody else's qualifying as well as the yellow flag before it is waved for the duration of the session. I guess some riders will care not and ride through there just as fast. Others will slow to be careful - loosing grid placings.

Then theres the issues of the next bike that might also come down in that corner. Now they're sliding toward the other left on track bike. Could end up meat the the metal sandwich.

Surely it would make more sense for the first crashed rider to pick a window of opportunity when no bikes are coming through to remove the bike? It's a risky sport, but you gota look out for others don't ya?.

Would be interested to hear some discussion about this.

[Burrt Badger]

Think about the rider who crashes because of someone else's actions, be it riding style or lack there of, be it an intentional fairing clash, or an unintentional clash of fairings for that matter, be it a back marker who alters their line just as they are being passed or oil dropped by another crashed competitor or a blown engine. You want to remove ANY rider who crashes, from the result of the race???? Yeah, that sounds fair to ALL.

[Biggles08]

Think about the rider who crashes because of someone else's actions, be it riding style or lack there of, be it an intentional fairing clash, or an unintentional clash of fairings for that matter, be it a back marker who alters their line just as they are being passed or oil dropped by another crashed competitor or a blown engine. You want to remove ANY rider who crashes, from the result of the race???? Yeah, that sounds fair to ALL.

Welcome to racing Burt Badger...that happens in races all the time and they ALWAYS get a DNF regardless of who is at fault...this rule is the only time they actually get points for causing a red flag...so...the moral of the story from my point of view is if I crash, I'll stay laying in the middle of the track and get the race red flagged...then get up and jump into the next race!?!? Really fair huh!?

As Brian has already said, he is as suprised as anyone that he still came 2nd in the race I'm refering to. He unfortunately had a bad off that caused the red flag and was truely in a bad way (I know I saw the end result of the crash) and correctly the marshalls called the race....BUT, thats not the issue I have. IMHO the race results should have excluded Brian as he had a DNF. It would have done this had he not been truely hurt and had managed to get out of the way for the race to continue for the final two laps....see the problem Burt or do I need to spell it out more?:msn-wink:

[wharfy]

That - You must walk away to safety and leave your bike on the track - rule was interesting at the Vic club R1.

So a guy bins it in quaifing.... and has to leave his bike there on the exit of a fast corner. The bike may be still rideable - but he has to leave it there, stuffing his qualifying session all the more. But now it's stuffing everybody else's qualifying as well as the yellow flag before it is waved for the duration of the session. I guess some riders will care not and ride through there just as fast. Others will slow to be careful - loosing grid placings.

Then theres the issues of the next bike that might also come down in that corner. Now they're sliding toward the other left on track bike. Could end up meat the the metal sandwich.

Surely it would make more sense for the first crashed rider to pick a window of opportunity when no bikes are coming through to remove the bike? It's a risky sport, but you gota look out for others don't ya?.

Would be interested to hear some discussion about this.

It makes sense for the rider to get off the track and stay off.
Getting hit by another bike is going to REALLY hurt - both of you.
Also if someone has gone down they may not be thinking clearly when they stand up.

The marshals have to make a judgment call as to whether the bike is a hazard worthy of a yellow flag or a RED flag or no hazard at all.

At VMCC meeting if you crash you are not allowed to re-join, and the rider picking up their own bike might forget that in the heat of the moment.

Riders who ignore the yellow flag and don't take care are being stupid, riders that ignore the yellow flag and overtake are cheating, rider that don't see the yellow flag should be more aware (which I know is easy to say but hard to do during a race).

[koba]

That - You must walk away to safety and leave your bike on the track - rule was interesting at the Vic club R1.

So a guy bins it in quaifing.... and has to leave his bike there on the exit of a fast corner. The bike may be still rideable - but he has to leave it there, stuffing his qualifying session all the more. But now it's stuffing everybody else's qualifying as well as the yellow flag before it is waved for the duration of the session. I guess some riders will care not and ride through there just as fast. Others will slow to be careful - loosing grid placings.

Then theres the issues of the next bike that might also come down in that corner. Now they're sliding toward the other left on track bike. Could end up meat the the metal sandwich.

Surely it would make more sense for the first crashed rider to pick a window of opportunity when no bikes are coming through to remove the bike? It's a risky sport, but you gota look out for others don't ya?.

Would be interested to hear some discussion about this.

Yeah, I took that as "Don't rejoin the race"
'Park it' As Mel said, so thats not saying dont get the bike out of the way if it's in a dangerous spot and it is safe to get it.
It saying park it up and dont get back on the track.
It has been the case at all the Vic Club round since Derek Hill and Phil Harrison both died in that collision last year at the Puke round of the nationals.
In light of all that the rule makes perfect sense to me.

[wharfy]

Welcome to racing Burt Badger...that happens in races all the time and they ALWAYS get a DNF regardless of who is at fault...this rule is the only time they actually get points for causing a red flag...so...the moral of the story from my point of view is if I crash, I'll stay laying in the middle of the track and get the race red flagged...then get up and jump into the next race!?!? Really fair huh!?


That would be immoral, you could do that and possibly a couple of times no one would even know, but if you did (especially in a club series) you would be an arsehole. There is a subltle difference between the LETTER of the law and the SPIRIT of the law.

The red flag is to protect riders, the "no fault" rule is the fairest way of protecting an innocent riders points - lacking the presence of a TV ref to make rulings on who did what to whom.

Like most rules these have evolved over time, admittedly I am a comparative newbie to racing but I can't think of a fairer way.

[koba]

So if you will be unable to attend, maybe you could post your thoughts here, so those of US, who will be attending will have a wider set of views to work on during the discussions.

JIM T

Good call, on joining KB.
I'm eligable to vote.
I have no idea about much of the organisation or people involved so would hate to cast a vote in ignorance.
I think the more topics are discussed in an easily available media (i.e. here) the less apathy we will see.

I look foward to learning more about whats what so when I do decide to vote it is from an informed position.

- Malcolm Nabbs

[White trash]

I do indeed intend on attending Jim.

Looking forward to catching up with a few people and better understanding how our ellected organization works.

[Burrt Badger]

Biggles, I agree with Wharfys comment!!!!!.
For your info the following is from the MotoGP Regulations, straight off the FIM website. Is this the addition you require?????

1.25.2. At the time the red flag is displayed, riders who are not actively
competing in the race will not be classified.
Within 5 minutes after the red flag has been displayed, riders who
have not entered the pit lane, riding on their motorcycle, will not be
classified.

As for your "Playing dead", you fall into the chasm of Tax Avoidance and Tax Evasion. It is a very sharp knife edge you walk on making a comment like that in a public forum, where I am pretty sure a number of Officials and your fellow competitors will note your attitude.

[k14]

That would be immoral, you could do that and possibly a couple of times no one would even know, but if you did (especially in a club series) you would be an arsehole. There is a subltle difference between the LETTER of the law and the SPIRIT of the law.
Well then in that case you just called every nationals racer an arsehole. I do not know of anyone who wouldn't do it. If I had then chance then hell yeah I would do it. It could be the difference between winning a championship and coming second. I've seen it done many a time (haven't had the chance to do it yet) and have no problem with the guys that do it. Other countries don't have that rule so I don't see why we should.

[Biggles08]

That would be immoral, you could do that and possibly a couple of times no one would even know, but if you did (especially in a club series) you would be an arsehole. There is a subltle difference between the LETTER of the law and the SPIRIT of the law.

I agree wharfy...but the world is full of arseholes!


The red flag is to protect riders
Again I agree...


the "no fault" rule is the fairest way of protecting an innocent riders points

What about a race that runs the entire duration and your leading the race in the last lap but you get taken out by another rider...the race is not red flagged and you are 'an innocent' but you still get no points cause you DNF....whats the difference?


- lacking the presence of a TV ref to make rulings on who did what to whom.

I'm not sure how this backs up your opinion? My issue is not that all crashes should be analysed for whos at fault...in fact its really the opposite...if you crash, regardless of the reason you by the very description it represents DNF (Did not finish). So why in a 'red flag' situation THAT YOU CAUSE you do get points and a result yet in a 'non red flag' situation you get nothing?


Like most rules these have evolved over time, admittedly I am a comparative newbie to racing but I can't think of a fairer way.

I can relate to this comment Wharfy and I'm very much in the same boat...this is just something that happened to me this weekend gone and I am suggesting as you say 'lets evolve' the rules. I can definately think of a fairer solution...how is it fair that a rider crashes (in this case on his own) and actually causes the race to be red flagged due to his own mistake/accident yet still gets a result from the race....yet I rode and didn't crash...passed him...went past a red flag and ended up still in forth place when only 2 bikes were in front of me? Surely I should be 3rd...5th should have been 4th etc.

[Biggles08]

Biggles, I agree with Wharfys comment!!!!!.
For your info the following is from the MotoGP Regulations, straight off the FIM website. Is this the addition you require?????

1.25.2. At the time the red flag is displayed, riders who are not actively
competing in the race will not be classified.
Within 5 minutes after the red flag has been displayed, riders who
have not entered the pit lane, riding on their motorcycle, will not be
classified.

Yes thank you Burrt Badger...that to me seems a fairer result as those who have managed to actually continue competing are rewarded for doing so...those that are on the track crashed are DNF....much cleaner and fairer surely!


As for your "Playing dead", you fall into the chasm of Tax Avoidance and Tax Evasion. It is a very sharp knife edge you walk on making a comment like that in a public forum, where I am pretty sure a number of Officials and your fellow competitors will note your attitude.

????? what is with this comment!? I have never done it nor am suggesting anyone should...and your tone seems to be misguided in thinking I will do this myself! I am merely suggesting the rule as it stands actually encourages this behaviour and I am suggesting a fix to it...and yes in this public forum!

[Bykmad]

????? what is with this comment!? I have never done it nor am suggesting anyone should...and your tone seems to be misguided in thinking I will do this myself! I am merely suggesting the rule as it stands actually encourages this behaviour and I am suggesting a fix to it...and yes in this public forum!

the moral of the story from my point of view is if I crash, I'll stay laying in the middle of the track and get the race red flagged...then get up and jump into the next race!?!? Really fair huh!?

The above is the basis!!!!!!

No rider crashes intentionally, but the ones I feel for are the poor buggers who are taken out by someones elses actions.
If competitors want a rule changed, all they have to do is contact the Road Race Commissioner, the Stewards Commissioner or e-mail to the MNZ Office and put their case. Best to e-mail the commissioners direct I would think.
As BJT666, communication ie all that is required.

[Biggles08]

????? what is with this comment!? I have never done it nor am suggesting anyone should...and your tone seems to be misguided in thinking I will do this myself! I am merely suggesting the rule as it stands actually encourages this behaviour and I am suggesting a fix to it...and yes in this public forum!

the moral of the story from my point of view is if I crash, I'll stay laying in the middle of the track and get the race red flagged...then get up and jump into the next race!?!? Really fair huh!?

The above is the basis!!!!!!

No rider crashes intentionally, but the ones I feel for are the poor buggers who are taken out by someones elses actions.
If competitors want a rule changed, all they have to do is contact the Road Race Commissioner, the Stewards Commissioner or e-mail to the MNZ Office and put their case. Best to e-mail the commissioners direct I would think.
As BJT666, communication ie all that is required.

You obviously don't understand the sarcasim in the tone of my post! read it again sloooowwwwly and try and get it! I was being facetious....check out this (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/facetious) page my friend! Apart from that, you are missing my point completely...Read the title of the thread and then the first post responding to it...that was the intention and I think BJT666 will be able to see that...I've commented enough on this now and I don't want to hijack his thread anymore.

[Bykmad]

Biggles. Dont rate yourself too highly. Burt Badger gave you the new International rule. You didnt know it. I simply wound your little spring, and bang, you snapped. This wasnt hi jacking the the thread, more like pointing out where the problems lie. Communication!!!!! If you want things changed, get off your bum and contact the people who can change them, dont bitch on on a forum.
Thats pretty much where the problem lies. People find it easier to bitch and moan on a forum than to actually do anything.

[Biggles08]

Biggles. Dont rate yourself too highly. Burt Badger gave you the new International rule. You didnt know it. I simply wound your little spring, and bang, you snapped. This wasnt hi jacking the the thread, more like pointing out where the problems lie. Communication!!!!! If you want things changed, get off your bum and contact the people who can change them, dont bitch on on a forum.
Thats pretty much where the problem lies. People find it easier to bitch and moan on a forum than to actually do anything.

Right...I get off my bum and do something huh? FFS...read the thread and its initial purpose! I quote the original post for your wee pea brain...here it is...

"So if you will be unable to attend, maybe you could post your thoughts here, so those of US, who will be attending will have a wider set of views to work on during the discussions."

thats what I have done as I am unable to get to the Workshop...got it?!

[wharfy]

Well then in that case you just called every nationals racer an arsehole. I do not know of anyone who wouldn't do it. If I had then chance then hell yeah I would do it. It could be the difference between winning a championship and coming second. I've seen it done many a time (haven't had the chance to do it yet) and have no problem with the guys that do it. Other countries don't have that rule so I don't see why we should.

Well as I said it is difficult to tell if someone is "playing" dead or injured, but anyone National racer or not who would feign serious injury (which is what not being able to stand up and signal you are OK implies) is in my opinion being an arsehole.
(They should go and play soccer where it is OK to roll around on the ground pretending to be injured to try and milk a penalty.)

I guess I think I am more likely to be "taken out" than just plain crash ( being a "careful" racer :) ) and loosing any points I might be up for would be adding insult to injury - but hey I am open to hearing other opinions, and might even be persuaded to change mine. In any event I could live with it if the rule was changed.
We could lay out the various scenario's of how/when the current rule is fair/unfair and repeat the exercise for any proposed change then see what people think is the most fair AND workable.

[Grey Beard]

DOES ANYONE KNOW WHAT THE TIMETABLE ETC IS FOR THE WEEKEND.

IN THE NOTICE OF MEETING THEY STATED

"On Saturday 23rd May 2009 from 9am to 1pm and then 2pm to 5pm Commission Workshops shall be held.

The final format is to be confirmed on the MNZ website www.mnz.co.nz"

SURPRISE, SURPRISE.

THAT HASN'T HAPPENED.

IT IS ONLY THREE DAYS AWAY, IF YOU HAVEN'T BEEN TOLD WHAT'S HAPPENING WHY WOULD YOU BOTHER TO ATTEND.

[koba]

Somthing that I can see that would probably be worth while discussing by parties concerned is in the F3 regs.

Is that bit about 250 mulitcylinder two strokes out dated?

Just a question on my part as I'm not fully in the know about it but it does look like it merits discussion.

It seems very restrictive considering the current pace of the SV's and now the OZZY 450.

Here is the bit from the book.


From Apendix B (Formula 3) of the MNZ rulebook.

1-2 Multi-cylinder and twin-cylinder production based two stroke up to 250cc

4-2 The specifications for 250cc Production based machines eligible under 1-2 above are described in
rule 6 below. oops MNZ that should be 5?

5 Specifications for up to 250cc Production Based machines
All two stroke multi-cylinder machines must comply with these rules. The machine must be based
on a volume production motorcycle that is road legal in New Zealand. No homologation is
necessary however the Road Race Commission or Technical Steward shall have the power to rule
whether or not a machine is eligible. The purpose of these rules is to allow machines to be
competitive in the class whilst preventing purpose built Grand Prix machines or parts from being
used. The major differences between Production based and Grand Prix machines are weight and
horsepower so limitations have been placed in these areas that will both limit performance and be
easy to enforce.
5-1 Capacity
Must not exceed 250cc. Machines with re-bored cylinders must remain within the capacity limit.
5-2 Appearance
The machine must retain the appearance of the original motorcycle. Paint and trade advertising
are not restricted.
169
5-3 Frame Body and Rear sub frame
The frame body must be from the original road going motorcycle. The frame may be polished but
not modified in any other way unless permitted in these rules. The frame must display the Vehicle
Identification Number or chassis number provided by the manufacturer. The frame may be
protected by the addition of material such as carbon fibre covers to prevent damage. The rear sub
frame may be altered or replaced from the point of attachment to the main frame.
5-4 Rear Suspension
The rear swing arm must be from the original road going motorcycle. Rear wheel stand brackets
may be added by welding or by bolts. The rear swing arm may be modified at the attachment point
to accept an after-market rear shock. The frame or swingarm may be modified to allow fitting of a
ride height adjuster. All other suspension components including linkages are optional.
5-5 Engine Specifications
5-5-1 Crankcase, Cylinder, Cylinder Head and Piston. The crankcase, cylinder, cylinder head and piston
must be from the original road going motorcycle. The manufacturer’s identification marks must be
retained, and may be examined to ensure compliance. These parts may be modified without any
further restriction.
5-5-2 Carburettor
The original carburettor may be replaced by any brand or type.
5-5-3 Fuel requirements: see 4 above.
5-5-4 Starting mechanism
For machines fitted with an electric start, the starting system must remain operative.
For machines fitted with a kick start mechanism, the internal mechanism and splined shaft must
remain in place and operative. The kick start lever may be removed from the shaft but must be
available to machine examiners to demonstrate that the kick start mechanism is operational as part
of eligibility checking mentioned below.
5-6 Modifications permitted
Provided all the requirements above are met and the machine complies with the relevant General
Competition Rules, any of the following parts may be altered or replaced: -
5-6-1 Wheels, brakes and tyres are optional. Racing tyres and tyre warmers are permitted.
5-6-2 Front forks, triple clamps, handlebars, steering dampers and front sub frames may be replaced. The
frame may be modified to provide a mount for the steering damper.
5-6-3 Rear shock absorber and linkages are optional provided that the original swingarm is retained. A
ride height adjuster may be fitted.
5-6-4 Fairings, seat and fuel tank are optional. The machine must retain the profile of the original road
going motorcycle. Additional fairing mounts may be added.

[k14]

Well as I said it is difficult to tell if someone is "playing" dead or injured, but anyone National racer or not who would feign serious injury (which is what not being able to stand up and signal you are OK implies) is in my opinion being an arsehole.
(They should go and play soccer where it is OK to roll around on the ground pretending to be injured to try and milk a penalty.)
Well thats your opinion and I thank you for that but no matter what you say it is still not going to change the fact that people do it. I'm not talking about club racing, yes if someone did a hollywood there they wouldn't be too popular, they are just wasting everyones time. But at nationals the stakes are higher. It is very common and everyone is happy as larry to admit to doing so. The usual scenario is fall off, roll/tumble to a stop and don't move. As soon as you see the red flag, jump up and run back to your bike and get back to pits as fast as you can. Ready for the restart.

This can all be changed by one simple rule change (of which other organisations are already progressively changing to). As far as I'm concerned the innocent guy that gets pushed off is totally irrelevant. That happens more often when there isn't a red flag and thats just life sometimes. This is racing and that is the nature of the beast, sometimes you win sometimes you loose.