Suggested punishments for a theif...

[ManDownUnder]

OK guys and gals - here's the situation. This is all legit and I'd appreciate honest comment and thoughts... try to keep the BS to a minimum (yup - that's me calling the Kettle black... I know I know...)

Anyhoo...

Little critter aged 15 or 16, known very well by the Police, put an ad on Trademe. I win, and pay him $55 and nothing shows. Through a very thorough search I find out who he actually is, and confirm there is no intention of delivering the goods... there ARE no goods...

Never were!

So... as threatened I'm taking him through the system. He's not going to get away with it, and to be blunt it would REALLY piss me off if he did.

I have a "Family Group Conference" coming up 7 April to meet with him and I want suggestions of what to do. My personal thought is that he needs not only to be punished, not only to learn he can't gete away with crap like this, but actually do the kid some good.

I was thinking about suggesting boot camp in the Army or somesuch... get him some discipline and self worth. Have him pay the mon ey he owes me, and have him apologise to me and the other victims.

Now... what other suggestions are out there in KB land?

Also... for the Boys and Girls in Blue out there... Family Group Conferences... any good? Is there anyone I shoudl request also be there? I understand for some with strong tribal affiliations having a Kaumauta there from the kid's Marai can have a strong influence.

What about Caucasian (as I understand it..)... am I ok to ask the Police or the Children and Young Person's thingy to bring along a significant person in this kid's life (grandparent, or eacher or...?).

I really would like him to be put on the spot by someone he knows, and respects. I want him to feel the pressure of dissaproval by another, to actually feel shamed for what he's done (I suspect this might be a novelty for him), and then give him the opportunity to better himself and put things right.

Thoughts?
MDU

[jrandom]

Meh. You're in a very socially-responsible mood today, aren't you?

I'd just sit and stare at him in the group conference. Not say a word. Mebbe shave my head before I went in, that sort of thing.

Then, later, I'd find him and do one of his kneecaps with a crowbar.

[duckman]

Make him clean your bike ....

Every week....

For a year!!!!! :done:

[ManDownUnder]

Meh. You're in a very socially-responsible mood today, aren't you?

I'd just sit and stare at him in the group conference. Not say a word. Mebbe shave my head before I went in, that sort of thing.

Then, later, I'd find him and do one of his kneecaps with a crowbar.

Yeah well... I have some background that influenced my thinking... I was dating a girl whose little brother was a complete... COMPLETE... little bastard. Got to the point he actually electrified the doorhandle to her room so she couldn't get out...!

...dangerous kid... intelligent and off the rails...!

He joined the army... he liked guns, war and tanks so it was the sensible thing to do. He got 7 bells of shit kicked out of him and came back a really nice guy! I'd like to think a similar change might happen to this little critter...

MDU

[ManDownUnder]

Make him clean your bike ....

Every week....

For a year!!!!! :done:

Not a bad idea, but if he's not able to be trusted with $55... what about the whole damned bike...

[Zed]

...Little critter aged 15 or 16, known very well by the Police, put an ad on Trademe. I win, and pay him $55 and nothing shows. Through a very thorough search I find out who he actually is, and confirm there is no intention of delivering the goods... there ARE no goods...

Never were!

So... as threatened I'm taking him through the system. He's not going to get away with it, and to be blunt it would REALLY piss me off if he did.MDU, I know exactly how you feel. My wife won her very first auction (5 x paperback books) on TradeMe over a month ago and I paid the seller $51 immediately. Like you she got stung and the goods never arrived despite the seller emailing twice saying that the money had showed in the bank and that the parcel was on its way. Since then this seller has ripped off six other traders and has subsequently had his membership suspended, etc.

To cut a long story short, I did consider taking further action against the 'perp' but decided not to because it is "buyer beware" after all (and it wasn't a huge amount) and the reality of justice being served and this thief learning his lesson and coming clean is very very slim! :angry2: Hope it goes well for you and you prove me wrong!


Zed

[James Deuce]

I'm with Johnny Random on this one.

Except I'd do the kneecap thing repeatedly, and in unexpected settings and "safe" havens for him.

If you shave your head, get a really huge and outrageous fake tattoo that covers your whole cranium. Chew a blood capsule and spit the contents into a white handkerchief at different times during the interview. Invite the grandmother, but make covert lewd gestures at her during the interview.

[ManDownUnder]

MDU, I know exactly how you feel. My wife won her very first auction (5 x paperback books) on TradeMe over a month ago and I paid the seller $51 immediately. Like you she got stung and the goods never arrived despite the seller emailing twice saying that the money had showed in the bank and that the parcel was on its way. Since then this seller has ripped off six other traders and has subsequently had his membership suspended, etc.

To cut a long story short, I did consider taking further action against the 'perp' but decided not to because it is "buyer beware" after all (and it wasn't a huge amount) and the reality of justice being served and this thief learning his lesson and coming clean is very very slim! :angry2: Hope it goes well for you and you prove me wrong!


Zed

Yeah... It's been a long time coming (like... 7 or 8 months) but it's worth it in the end...

I put together a dossier on all the correspondence, including other thefts off Tradme and went to the cop shop. They gave it to the Fraud squad who picked it up in due course... not hard work to do and hopefully they can 1) get your money back and 2) teach the little sods a lesson...

I'm happy to go over what I did if that helps.. and show you what to expect from the process... it'd kinda fun once you get over the initial shock and annoyance of it all...

MDU

[ManDownUnder]

I'm with Johnny Random on this one.

Except I'd do the kneecap thing repeatedly, and in unexpected settings and "safe" havens for him.

If you shave your head, get a really huge and outrageous fake tattoo that covers your whole cranium. Chew a blood capsule and spit the contents into a white handkerchief at different times during the interview. Invite the grandmother, but make covert lewd gestures at her during the interview.

Yeah - NUH.

I know - having fun but I'd quite like suggestions that I can actually take into the session and have some effect on the kid... and not get me put behind bars as well...
MDU

[jazbug5]

I think CSL would have some interesting suggestions on this? Try PMing her to see what she thinks, I think it ties in with what she's studying.
What I think (sorta. kinda) is that at that age a lot of yoof are kicking out a lot just to see where the barriers are.
He needs to learn that pure selfishness and greed are not going to get him anywhere desirable, and while he might have got something for nothing (briefly) in the long run it that sort of thinking will just come back bite him in the unmentionables, and he will look far from cool as a result.
Whether his parents are up to the task of shaming him in this meeting in an effective way is hard to know. Some people were at the back of the queue when parents were handed out. Not an excuse for unlimited bad behaviour, but something that needs to be recognised (in my view) and adjusted for.
Is there some possibility of having him do voluntary work?
If there is, what if he had to do x amount of hours helping disabled kids or kids who have it far harder than him? That might just make him grow up a bit and realise how lucky he is, regardless of whether he has the latest Playstation or not.
Oooo, I do go on, don't I?

Good luck, and nice one for actually thinking about it.

[jrandom]

Oooo, I do go on, don't I?

Yes, you do. Shut up and make wit' da crowbar, girly.

[James Deuce]

Yes, you do. Shut up and make wit' da crowbar, girly.
She's the most voluble Scot I've met. Most of the ones I know say things like, "aaargh", and "I'm not mental, it's ma heid."

And that would be about it for 24 hours.

[ManDownUnder]

I think CSL would have some interesting suggestions on this? Try PMing her to see what she thinks, I think it ties in with what she's studying.

Done - thanks...
MDU

[White trash]

I'm with Johnny Random on this one.

Except I'd do the kneecap thing repeatedly, and in unexpected settings and "safe" havens for him.



Then you could sit on him.

Or better still, you and Jrandom BOTH sit on him. Farrrkk! He'd think twice then.....

[James Deuce]

Fark, even the Suzuki riders are going soft.

I like the old days. Arrest 'em, incarcerate 'em, watch 'em when they get out. Family group, frigging conference. All he needs is a hiding from Dad, or a size 12 police boot up the arse.

[James Deuce]

Then you could sit on him.

Or better still, you and Jrandom BOTH sit on him. Farrrkk! He'd think twice then.....
...Said girly arms.

[jazbug5]

At the risk of this turning into another Scottish thread (and I know you're a cuddly soft big pussy, really, Jim... and the rest a yas, too...!) but...

has anyone here read Jimmy Boyle's autobiography, 'A Sense Of Freedom'?
He was considered the 'Most Dangerous Man In Britain' (a real Glasgow hard man in the old tradition) and is now an award-winning artist.
He spent most of his life in the system, from Borstal at a really young age- like 11 or something - right up until his mid 30s. What changed?

They put him in an experimental wing. It wasn't a soft arse option by any means; but they started to challenge their behaviour (from memory, read this ages ago) and treat them like humans. It worked for him: the kick arse option didn't. Obviously there was more to it than that, so read the book. It's really interesting.

There will always be exceptions to the rule- whichever rule you like to think of. I hate folk using the system to get a soft ride, too; it helps no-one, least of themselves- which is why you need wily people watching that they don't.

Anyway, what was I saying?

Oh, yes: aaargh! Och nooo.... it's no me, it's ma heid....
Grrrochmacuddoch ya wee hoor...

[Lou Girardin]

At least you'll get a laugh from meeting the family. Any predictions on what they'll be like?

[James Deuce]

(giant snip)
Oh, yes: aaargh! Och nooo.... it's no me, it's ma heid....
Grrrochmacuddoch ya wee hoor...


Now that's more like it.

[ManDownUnder]

... ahem...

any chance of staying on topic... just a little... please?

[James Deuce]

I'd like a nice Monteith's Summer about now.

[James Deuce]

There are quite a few good resources on the Internet.

This one reflects a generic organisational reform process that most judiciaries seem to be adopting in one for or another.
http://www.oijj.org/doc/documental_1187_en.pdf

Stephen Biddulph has some great ideas in his book called "Raising Boys" about how to keep boys on track. I'd actually drag the boy's father in, and if at all possible talk to him about a strategy for managing this kid. Sounds like he is pushing boundaries, but more likely he is also trying to attract "someone's" attention.

[MSTRS]

Supposedly these Family Group fuzzies are great.....my personal experience is that they are a complete waste of time. Type up a really professional looking invoice for the $55.00 plus a 'few incidentals' like interest, lost wages, mental stress, etc - present that to the little bastard & have him read it out. (if he is even literate). Then kneecap 'im

[WINJA]

HE NEEDS PAIN TO LEARN , CAN YOU PAY A RUGBY MATE TO SPEAR TACKLE HIM FUCKIN HARD , AND WHEN THE GUYS IN PAIN FOR HIM TO SAY "YOU OWE MY MATE A DEBT I WONT TELL YOU WHO MY MATE IS BUT I SUGGEST YOU PAY UP FAST" BET YA GET YOUR MONEY. UNFORTUNATLY THE DAYS ARE GONE OF THE COPS GIVING OUT A THICK EAR.

[jazbug5]

There are quite a few good resources on the Internet.

This one reflects a generic organisational reform process that most judiciaries seem to be adopting in one for or another.
http://www.oijj.org/doc/documental_1187_en.pdf

Stephen Biddulph has some great ideas in his book called "Raising Boys" about how to keep boys on track. I'd actually drag the boy's father in, and if at all possible talk to him about a strategy for managing this kid. Sounds like he is pushing boundaries, but more likely he is also trying to attract "someone's" attention.

Excellent, Jim. Just read that document, and it's well worth taking the time. They'll have their work cut out trying to have those strategies implemented throughout all the member states, I'd say; a lot of sensible ideas/recommendations/observations there, though. Will look out for the book.
(Have a look, Mandownunder, if you haven't already..)

[MOTOXXX]

What about a big stick?
that'd learn him

[ManDownUnder]

There are quite a few good resources on the Internet.

This one reflects a generic organisational reform process that most judiciaries seem to be adopting in one for or another.
http://www.oijj.org/doc/documental_1187_en.pdf

Stephen Biddulph has some great ideas in his book called "Raising Boys" about how to keep boys on track. I'd actually drag the boy's father in, and if at all possible talk to him about a strategy for managing this kid. Sounds like he is pushing boundaries, but more likely he is also trying to attract "someone's" attention.

Cool - thanks.

I know of Stephen Biddulph's work so I'll look out for that book.

Not a bad idea to get Dad in there, unless he's going to scoff and undermine the whole thing... hw do you find that out ahead of time though?
MDU

[Biff]

Stephen Biddulph's books are excellent, and funny. You realise what a shit parent (well I did) you are when you read his books. Although he goes out of his way to make you feel normal. It is normal to beat small children with dead poultry isn't it?

I'm with the 'make sure he brings an adult' crowd. Although this could backfire if the adult concerned is a scumbag as well.

[Bounty]

I like the old style punishment of putting people in the stocks, for them to be publicly humiliated, and then rotten food at them. I wonder what it would do now......

[Ixion]

I like the old style punishment of putting people in the stocks, for them to be publicly humiliated, and then rotten food at them. I wonder what it would do now......


from the Koran


The Glorious Qur’an says in Surah Maidah:

"As to the thief, male or female, cut off his or her hands:a punishment by way
of example, from Allah, for their crime: and Allah is Exalted in power, full of wisdom." [ Al-Qur’an 5:38]



Yep. That's the way to go. Old ways are often good ways

[James Deuce]

I like the old style punishment of putting people in the stocks, for them to be publicly humiliated, and then rotten food at them. I wonder what it would do now......
Net the stocks "victim" some tax payer funded counselling no doubt.

[James Deuce]

Stephen Biddulph's books are excellent, and funny. You realise what a shit parent (well I did) you are when you read his books. Although he goes out of his way to make you feel normal. It is normal to beat small children with dead poultry isn't it?

I'm with the 'make sure he brings an adult' crowd. Although this could backfire if the adult concerned is a scumbag as well.
It made me realise how little active teaching of parenting I was ever given, apart from how to drink, swear, shout, and behave petulantly when I don't get my own way. And how to cope with physical and emotional pain. The most important thing I learned from Mr Biddulph was that I'm not important. You're much happier when you figure that out. I'm not special, and I can't demand to be the person I want to be and how important it is for boys to understand this by the time they reach adulthood.

I use boneless chicken breasts. They don't leave bruises.

Family group conferences are usually about establishing lines of communication within the family unit, not necessarily about getting redress for the victim. I think a male role model is necessary in this case, but as you say BB, he may be the scumbag that gave junior the idea. Or he might be completely oblivious to his 15 year old's desire to be parented.

MDU, I wonder if you can request a pre-conference meeting with the parents to establish whether they are going to support behaviour modification for junior, or whether they are just going to support their son, come what may?

[Ms Piggy]

Ok MDU I have your PM and will give some thought.

Off the top of my head though, I would recomend being very clear and concise about what you want and how he made you feel.

I've never been to a Family Group Confernece so I couldn't comment on how effective they are. There are a lot of factors that would come into it of course. Knee capping the lad won't be 1 of them sorry boys.

Don't make it personal (which is easy for me to say of course), what I mean is, don't get into a mud slinging match b/c that will be a waste of time, ie. "You're a little shit who derserves to be knee capped & then have your computer taken away", is gonna make feck all difference. Something along the lines of , "I understand that it sucks being broke, but I work hard for the money I earn and it made me feel really angry to be ripped off by you." It depends on the young guy too. I mean he could be some cocky young thang who doesn't give a shite or this could be something that makes hium wake up & stop ripping people off.

Is it just you or everyone he has ripped off that will be present?

Do you know what he did with the money?

I hope this helps. Cheers CSL

[Ms Piggy]

Family group conferences are usually about establishing lines of communication within the family unit, not necessarily about getting redress for the victim. I think a male role model is necessary in this case, but as you say BB, he may be the scumbag that gave junior the idea. Or he might be completely oblivious to his 15 year old's desire to be parented.

MDU, I wonder if you can request a pre-conference meeting with the parents to establish whether they are going to support behaviour modification for junior, or whether they are just going to support their son, come what may?
Good points here Jim :niceone:

Definitely his parental units attitudes will have a lot to do with things.

[Blakamin]

I'd just sit and stare at him in the group conference. Not say a word. Mebbe shave my head before I went in, that sort of thing.


I volunteer..... I might even smile the "black-tooth grin" as well....



(and then I'd find him later and.....)

[spudchucka]

Also... for the Boys and Girls in Blue out there... Family Group Conferences... any good? Is there anyone I shoudl request also be there? I understand for some with strong tribal affiliations having a Kaumauta there from the kid's Marai can have a strong influence.
In my experience the FGC will leave you in absolutely no doubt as to why the little darling has become a little shit. Meeting the parents usually makes it quite clear.

There are the exceptions though and we shouldn't write them all off before we have given them a chance. The FGC does work for some individuals, usually first timers who have a reasonable family background and good support from extended family.

The fact that he has been committing his crimes on the internet suggests that he has a computer and knows how to use it. Therefore he isn't thick and is probably from a middle class family that can afford items such as computers, (unless he stole that too). This may therefore be an indication that mum and dad aren't career criminals themselves and the process may actually be valid in this case.

I say its worth a crack.

[jrandom]

Bit of a tangent here, but I recently finished reading a book that Mrs Random brought home - Into the Darklands, by Nigel Latta.

It's about sex offenders, but it does contain some information that gives a clue as to how some permanently screwed up career criminals are influenced by their childhood, and it probably relates to a lot of what CSL's been studying, too.

However, that probably doesn't have much to do with this particular little oxygen-thief-in-training. Like Spud says, he'll just be some stupid little well-fed middle-class twat. The fact that his parents haven't already contacted you about it and arranged appropriate redress, including a bit of backbreaking labour on the kid's part, etc (which *I* certainly would be doing if one of my kids ever did something like that) probably indicates that they're not going to be that much use, though.

So I still like the crowbar idea.

[Rainbow Wizard]

HE NEEDS PAIN TO LEARN , CAN YOU PAY A RUGBY MATE TO SPEAR TACKLE HIM FUCKIN HARD , AND WHEN THE GUYS IN PAIN FOR HIM TO SAY "YOU OWE MY MATE A DEBT I WONT TELL YOU WHO MY MATE IS BUT I SUGGEST YOU PAY UP FAST" BET YA GET YOUR MONEY. UNFORTUNATLY THE DAYS ARE GONE OF THE COPS GIVING OUT A THICK EAR.
And pay $55 a week for the privelege.

[Rainbow Wizard]

I like the old style punishment of putting people in the stocks, for them to be publicly humiliated, and then rotten food at them.
But set them stocks up on WINJA's front yard :laugh:

[Skyryder]

First of all let me wish you luck. You've got your heart in the right place for the kid but in all reality the little shit will put up a nice con job for all those present and the 'industry' will believe him. He sees you as a sucker and what has him pissed off is not that he stole, its that he got caught. I once had a little shit spit on me and got the offer of attendance in the family court that's a joke if ever there was. Family my arse, full of Justice Department officials. Let's know how it goes. Oh they will probably want your confidentialy on the proceedings. Tell 'em fuck and see how sympathetic they are then. That should get the ball rolling one way or another.

Skyryder

[Rainbow Wizard]

The fact that he has been committing his crimes on the internet suggests that he has a computer and knows how to use it.
Curtail any more net based pilfering real quick eh.

[Skyryder]

MDU, I know exactly how you feel. My wife won her very first auction (5 x paperback books) on TradeMe over a month ago and I paid the seller $51 immediately. Like you she got stung and the goods never arrived despite the seller emailing twice saying that the money had showed in the bank and that the parcel was on its way. Since then this seller has ripped off six other traders and has subsequently had his membership suspended, etc.

To cut a long story short, I did consider taking further action against the 'perp' but decided not to because it is "buyer beware" after all (and it wasn't a huge amount) and the reality of justice being served and this thief learning his lesson and coming clean is very very slim! :angry2: Hope it goes well for you and you prove me wrong!


Zed


Welcome back Zed I've missed you.

So because of your indifference to you being ripped off, the perp has committed further offences that may have been prevented if you had chosen to act. Oh well done.

Skyryder

[ManDownUnder]

Something along the lines of , "I understand that it sucks being broke, but I work hard for the money I earn and it made me feel really angry to be ripped off by you." It depends on the young guy too. I mean he could be some cocky young thang who doesn't give a shite or this could be something that makes him wake up & stop ripping people off.

Is it just you or everyone he has ripped off that will be present?

Do you know what he did with the money?

I hope this helps. Cheers CSL

Awesome thanks!

Yup - I'm not actually too cut up about the $55, and if I don't get it back I promise not to lose sleep... but what will annoy me is if he gets away with it.

I didn't know (or think) about the requirement for anonymity on the FGC... it's an interesting one and if it's a condition I need to accept as part of the process it'll be tempting to tell 'em where to put it. He's a thief, premeditated and that's as plain as as that.

And it is that exact issue I want addressed... hence the idea about putting him into thew army for a spell... a little (or LOT of) discipline will hopefully shake him till he doesn't know which way is up, then shape him till he can.

I think I'll be the only one present at the FGC (of all that he fleeced) because he's done it over the net. Others are (from memory) in Wellington etc, and they harder to bring up to Whangarei (to suit him of course).

Is it possible to have him come to me? It seems the right thing to happen...

Anyhoo - I'm taking notes and printing this stuff out (weel... the useful staff anyway).

Keep it coming... this is good stuff... mostly...
MDU

[WINJA]

But set them stocks up on WINJA's front yard :laugh:
CANT AT THE MOMENT I HAVE 50 SHEEP IN MY FRONT YARD.I HAD TO PUT UP AN ELECTRIC FENCE TO KEEP THOSE AUSSIE TOURISTS OUT.GOT ROOM IN MY BACK YARD THOUGH :2thumbsup

[MSTRS]

. Knee capping the lad won't be 1 of them sorry boys.




Spoilsport

[Zed]

Welcome back Zed I've missed you.

So because of your indifference to you being ripped off, the perp has committed further offences that may have been prevented if you had chosen to act. Oh well done.

SkyryderThis crook actually ripped 6 of us off within several days of eachother. It was a strange one though because up until that time this specific trader had 30+ positive feedbacks under his belt and nil negative! So at first I though that maybe something untoward had happened to him and gave him some extra time hoping that the goods would turn up eventually, but once I realised that a whole group of us had been hard done by I concluded that he had done a runner with our money. One of the other traders was going to the police, etc and it looked as though TM was going to cooperate with any prosecution.

So there's often times more to the story Mr S. :yes:


Zed

[Blakamin]

Mummy and Daddy will say "We had no idea, he's such a good kid" despite that they wouldn't know as they are never home due to "careers" and "socializing" and he'll get let off...


OR

The parents will tell you to "fuck off, thats my kid you're talking about and if you ever say anything like that again we'll sue you!" just before going to winz and complaining that they had to pay travel costs to get their no-good shit of a kid to court and can they have more money coz he needs his ADD drugs...


OR

He's just a shifty little cunt and his parents applauded the whole thing, (they sell insurance over the phone) thinking that the kid was showing innitiative....


OR

He stole the computer and thought "easy money".... and he still has the computer and if this is all the trouble he's gunna get into :niceone: away we go!!! (except now he has to find a way of masking his IP address)


Isn't society to blame?????

Fuck him... NZ needs more youth detention centres

[jazbug5]

Blackamin, you're not wrong. At all. All good points.

My problem with borstal is this: you take a bunch of maladjusted little shits for whom having no morals has so far worked, chuck them together in a prison-like institution and train them how to live in prison; be a bigger piece of shit than the others and you don't get bullied.

I don't know about NZ Borstals: what's missing here is input from someone (and there must be someone) here who's actually been in one. It's be great to hear from them.

I know about Scottish ones. Not from the inside- I ran away (lucky for me) right before I was stuck in one by the authorities. Luckily life straightened out for me. Not so my friends. Too many stories for what's essentially turning into a thread heist, so I'll limit this to one.

I have spent the last ten years watching my best friend's daughter be turned from a confused hippy kid (okay, my mate's not a great mum- product of Liverpool borstal etc etc excuses over) into a thieving, sneaky amoral junkie who now screws strangers for her next fix. Last I heard, she ran away from hospital right before they were going to amputate her arm.
She has just turned eighteen. Don't think she's going to be around for her nineteenth- but hey, at least she can't have kids any more!

Maybe some institutions out there do work. Maybe they are staffed by smart people who know how to give kids the right sort of abrupt lesson they need. Maybe boys do better in them. I just... sort of doubt it.

[scroter]

i reckon send him to boot camp like you said, if he dosent turn up cut his hands off.

[jazbug5]

Troll. ;)

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enough?

[ManDownUnder]

OK... ladies and laddies - here's what happened... about 2 weeks ago (note the slight delay since I originally started this thread... justoice ain't hasty in this country).

Thje kid is stuffed up. I'm not one to roll over and say "poor baby" but this kid was buggered from the get go, and is trying to make the best of a bad (BAD) lot.

Mum murdered at 2 (verified), his Dad doesn't want to know him (and hasn't for years) and he's grown up actively rejected by anything he could call family. His Dad will not allow him anything to do with his mother's side of the family either - the only thing that MIGHT give him some sense of who he is and any offering of familial love.

I can possibly explain why he's aggro, and trying to make cash any way he can... he's not wanted, and he's broke.

The Family Group Conference itself was very useful for all concerned - for me to understand what happened, and also for me to not stoop to his level - tempting though it was just to give him arseholes... For those Covey fans out there... the whole seek to understand, then to be understood is a rule to follow - it work... MAN did it work in this case.

SO... he's paying us all back at $40/week from his job on a dairy farm, working pre dawn, and finishing after evening milking (with time off durig the day). He's doing an automotive course and bettering himself and a couple of us are going for a ride up to Whangarei to meet him in a few months to see how he's getting on.

I've been through some tough times personally (no - this ain't a woe is me)... but this kid has been living a shitty life for his whole life. I'm personally amased he's 1/2 sane.

Happy to give any more detail (except names etc) if wanted - PM me. All in all - I've come out of it a little wiser, and feeling pretty damned good about myself with the resolution that came out if it...

:ride:

MDU

[Dadpole]

Looks like it might be a good result. I hope he sticks with it, and good for you for going through with it. Personally, I would count the money you lost as an investment in a future for him.

[ManDownUnder]

Looks like it might be a good result. I hope he sticks with it, and good for you for going through with it. Personally, I would count the money you lost as an investment in a future for him.

Ironically the money lost gives me an entitlement to stay involved- and he sounds like a 1/2 decent, albeit completely screwed up, kid.

I was thinking of getting some of the KB crowd in Whangarei together and going for a ride? I'll take this kid pillion... show a fun side to life? Whatcha all reckon?

[Sniper]

Kill them with kindness MDU.

Failing that take him up a back road and use jrandom's idea of a crowbar :devil2:

[SPman]

Ironically the money lost gives me an entitlement to stay involved- and he sounds like a 1/2 decent, albeit completely screwed up, kid.

I was thinking of getting some of the KB crowd in Whangarei together and going for a ride? I'll take this kid pillion... show a fun side to life? Whatcha all reckon?

yeah - why not. Got nothing to lose and might well do some good.

and - any excuse for a ride........

[ManDownUnder]

Kill them with kindness MDU.

I don't understand what you mean...

I have to admit I set things up so I am the last to get paid out... and if he doesn't pay up for any reason - i'm back on his case. He knows that from last time, and this time it'll be the same.

MDU

[Beemer]

I'm amazed at such a seemingly positive outcome and I really hope it does work out well for all concerned. I can see that it must have been tempting for you to call him every bastard under the sun and make him feel bad, but obviously calmly discussing the matter has worked. I know I have been tempted to shout and scream when someone has wronged me but in the instances where I haven't, the outcome has been much better. Often the person expects you to have a go at them and is all ready to be defensive or aggressive, but when you just express your anger or disgust at their actions, they have the wind taken out of their sails.

I am not excusing his actions, but he really doesn't seem to have much of a life. I hope he will learn something from this and make a brighter future for himself. Working on a dairy farm may be just what he needs to get himself straight - most farmers are too tired to get into trouble when they finish work! And I like the fact he has to pay you all back.

Maybe just keeping in touch with this guy and letting him know you don't hate HIM for what he did, you just hate WHAT he did, will be enough for him to think twice before ripping anyone else off. Take him for a ride, who knows, he may be redeemable after all!

[Sniper]

I don't understand what you mean...



Its a statement that mean, just be extra extra nice to him so that he feels really really really bad about it. That way he will never do it again.
I tried it once but Im too impatient

[ManDownUnder]

Its a statement that mean, just be extra extra nice to him so that he feels really really really bad about it. That way he will never do it again.
I tried it once but Im too impatient

All good - cheers. I wondered if that was it.

Yeah - the poor little bugger has been shafted at every turn, and I'd love to get him inspired with something - ANYTHING. He's putting in the hard yards now, knows he did bad and wants to fix that up... I want to ensure he maintains that opinion.

I keep thinking of Greg Newbold, ex crim (bastard actually) now a sociology or criminology professor? Awesome stuff. That kind of experience can really set you up for life if you use it right.

It can also give you and the world at large the ammo to destroy you.

MDU
PS - I sounds a tad philosophical today... where my BJ?

[Sniper]

So..... you want a BJ or BJ?

[ManDownUnder]

So..... you want a BJ or BJ?

To be fair - I like them both - just not one from the other if that makes sense...

[Sniper]

Really? Ok, I wanted to make the first KB porn vid starring you two

[Eurygnomes]

Yeah - the poor little bugger has been shafted at every turn, and I'd love to get him inspired with something - ANYTHING. He's putting in the hard yards now, knows he did bad and wants to fix that up... I want to ensure he maintains that opinion.

It can also give you and the world at large the ammo to destroy you.


Not to mention your Karma points eh MDU?! :whistle:

Just kidding - I think you did the right thing. From the start it didn't seem like he was your ordinary thug - using trademe as a source of funding does require a degree of capability after all. So I'm glad that he's doing something proactive (the dairy farming) though I still worry about the lack of family.

I know martial arts were my family for a long time (plus, teaching me sneaky ways to look after myself) and our sensei was a dairy farmer so I wonder if he coudl fit that in. I find that in any situation, if someone you respect is teaching you how to maximise your inner and outer strength, you develop into a family unit all of your own, borrowed though it may be (even when one of your siblings then takes your knee out completely!).

Just ideas for hte future...I hope you stay involved MDU. :)

[ManDownUnder]

I know martial arts were my family for a long time (plus, teaching me sneaky ways to look after myself) and our sensei was a dairy farmer so I wonder if he coudl fit that in. I find that in any situation, if someone you respect is teaching you how to maximise your inner and outer strength, you develop into a family unit all of your own, borrowed though it may be (even when one of your siblings then takes your knee out completely!).

Hey awesome - thanks for that... I'd never have thought of that one!

MDU

[Zed]

Well it seems you proved me wrong when I said "justice wouldn't be served and this thief learning his lesson and coming clean is very very slim!" MDU. Well done.

One of the greatest blessings is to see someones life change for the better!

Often the criminal life is a sad story and the result of a broken home. Loosing ones parents and being rejected totally is very sad, yet in no way an excuse for thievery.

I'm glad you feel victorious MDU! http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/images/smilies/clap.gif

[sir.pratt]

At the risk of this turning into another Scottish thread (and I know you're a cuddly soft big pussy, really, Jim... and the rest a yas, too...!) but...

has anyone here read Jimmy Boyle's autobiography, 'A Sense Of Freedom'?
He was considered the 'Most Dangerous Man In Britain' (a real Glasgow hard man in the old tradition) and is now an award-winning artist.
He spent most of his life in the system, from Borstal at a really young age- like 11 or something - right up until his mid 30s. What changed?

They put him in an experimental wing. It wasn't a soft arse option by any means; but they started to challenge their behaviour (from memory, read this ages ago) and treat them like humans. It worked for him: the kick arse option didn't. Obviously there was more to it than that, so read the book. It's really interesting.

There will always be exceptions to the rule- whichever rule you like to think of. I hate folk using the system to get a soft ride, too; it helps no-one, least of themselves- which is why you need wily people watching that they don't.

Anyway, what was I saying?

Oh, yes: aaargh! Och nooo.... it's no me, it's ma heid....
Grrrochmacuddoch ya wee hoor...


Comparing 15 year old losers to Jimmy Boyle though is a bit of a leap of faith. These are not hardened criminals here - just dickheads with no respect for other people's property or rights, most of who need a bloody good slapping, cause it's all they understand.

[idb]

You know what really pisses me off?
I don't care, I'm gonna tell you anyway!

When you work up into latherous, self righteous anger about some total wanker....and then he turns out to be OK, or deserving of some kind of understanding.
Aaaargh, I hate that!
If someone's a fuckwit, why can't they just stay that way!!!!

Anyway, well done MDU. It's very easy for folks like me to inhabit our cosy middle-class world, railing at the low-life all around us, completely ignorant of the circumstances that they have come from. Worse, not wanting to know about them, judging them on our own standards and experience.

This would have to be the most educational and uplifting thread I've seen on this forum.

Excuse me, I'm having a moment.

I just know I'll be embarrassed about this incoherent post in the morning............where's my therapist......

[Skyryder]

MDU, I know exactly how you feel. My wife won her very first auction (5 x paperback books) on TradeMe over a month ago and I paid the seller $51 immediately. Like you she got stung and the goods never arrived despite the seller emailing twice saying that the money had showed in the bank and that the parcel was on its way. Since then this seller has ripped off six other traders and has subsequently had his membership suspended, etc.

To cut a long story short, I did consider taking further action against the 'perp' but decided not to because it is "buyer beware" after all (and it wasn't a huge amount) and the reality of justice being served and this thief learning his lesson and coming clean is very very slim! :angry2: Hope it goes well for you and you prove me wrong!


Zed


That's precisely why they get away with it. Guys like you let your self get ripped off then make excuses why you do nothing about it.


Skyryder

[Skyryder]

Family conferences are a wast of time. Any remorse is not for the crime but getting caught. If you want to front up then go for it. All you'll get is a lot of sympathy 'from the system,' how much 'good' the little shit has in him. Things like 'he's not a bad lad at heart etc, and he knows better and their is a lot of potential in him. All this waffle is designed to mollify yourself. I kid you not. There will be social workers, counsellors, his support person etc. It's nothing but a crock.

My advice is to write a letter and speak you mind. Send it to the social worker and say that it is to be read aloud.

Failing that front up and break his nose.


Skyryder

[Skyryder]

Often the criminal life is a sad story and the result of a broken home. Loosing ones parents and being rejected totally is very sad, yet in no way an excuse for thievery.



Then why make excuses for them.

Skyryder

[Ms Piggy]

Thanks MDU - it's really interesting to hear your comments regarding the FGC process. It's great that you are so keen to help him too.

The social worker in me would say that his story is possibly that of a lot of young people that have committed crime similar or worse and society at large is so willing to react before knowing the story behind their actions. (watch me get flamed for this!!)

[jazbug5]

Comparing 15 year old losers to Jimmy Boyle though is a bit of a leap of faith. These are not hardened criminals here - just dickheads with no respect for other people's property or rights, most of who need a bloody good slapping, cause it's all they understand.

*sigh*

The whole point is, read the book. How do you think he got that way?

I now work in a police station; we get the kids coming through our doors as little tinies with cigarette burns on their faces and no food in their bellies. Everyone knows that they'll be seeing them again in all likelihood when they start getting arrested for 'disrespecting other peoples property/rights'. Who is teaching these kids the reciprocal nature of respect?
It isn't the people knocking seven kinds of sh*t out of them and not feeding them...

If anything, the last three weeks have reinforced my original views, and made me more determined to work with kids professionally to try to help them learn what they may not be learning otherwise.

Go ahead. Say something constructive.

[Eurygnomes]

It totally breaks my heart to see really smart kids, maltreated during their childhood such that they 'turn to the dark side', though I see the painful inevitability as well. I know I started off down that track, and I consider myself very lucky to have received some decent parenting (stern but fair etc, I was smacked and I think my parents were correct in most occasions).

And some of my most intelligent friends have unfortunately gone down the 'wrong' side - so far not being caught (bodily or emotionally) too badly, but I always wonder when the net will tighten around their hearts and heads. :|

So good on you all people who work with the disenfranchised and abused children!