Porkgate

[cave weta]

more on this disgusting practice at 7pm on TV1 - Close up

For those that diddnt see it. TV1 program, Sunday had an exposay where Mike King who was the pork industry's front man for several years, broke into a caged Pig facility with cameras. he was disgusted and horrified that the industry had been so missrepresented to him. He had -( as have many) been told that these crates were only used for farrowing.
Truth is pigs spend their entire life in a cage that is 600mm wide and 2 metres long.


You hard assed meat eaters out there will say toughen up and pull your pansy head in.
cos you are a tough meat eating kiwi male. But inside you know that this is wrong- surely?


What if you treated a dog or a horse or a cat or even a goat this way?

You would be arrested and the public would be horrified that you could do such a thing!

[Quasievil]

You hard assed meat eater glorifying wankers out there will say toughen up.
But what if you treated a dog or a horse or a cat or even a goat this way?



Dont eat Dog Horse or Cat or even Goat, if we did they would be in cages to.

Media Hype crapola if you ask me show a couple of sad pigs and the pork industry is fucked stupid fucking Media,also stop humanizing Pigs they are in cages for a reason agro carnivorous little fuckers.

Free Ranging Pigs dont work unless you loose like 80% of the demand.

Mike King should be charged with breaking and entering and made to shovel pig shit for a year.

[Maha]

With the recent cracklings emerging from within the New Zealand Pork Industry, does/would it change your way of thinking when it comes to buying Pork Products?
I for one, think the whole thing is fucking disgusting, they way the Pigs are treated for up to five years, I also never knew this was going on.
Free range pork??..would you buy it instead of caged Pork knowing that the price is almost (in some cases) double that of caged pork (the pork most of us has been eating forever)
Will you now start reading the words on the back of bacon packets?

When purchasing food items, it comes down to price in some cases, on Saturday, we gave up a pork leg roast and bought a smaller rolled pork piece instead...governed by the price, but im tight like that.

[Patch]

saw the the two industry spokesmen on Breakfast.

They say at least 50% of pig farming is free range - so cage farming is not the normal practice (bullshit) so its acceptable. We are no better than those European arseholes.

Seems the dollar means more to the "farmer" than the welfare of his animals - which in my book does not make him a farmer but something else . . .

Even prisoners are treated better than this

Good to see Mr. King has a backbone.


Dont eat Dog Horse or Cat or even Goat, if we did they would be in cages to.
bullshit

[cave weta]

Dont eat Dog Horse or Cat or even Goat, if we did they would be in cages to.

Media Hype crapola if you ask me show a couple of sad pigs and the pork industry is fucked stupid fucking Media,also stop humanizing Pigs they are in cages for a reason agro carnivorous little fuckers.

Free Ranging Pigs dont work unless you loose like 80% of the demand.

Mike King should be charged with breaking and entering and made to shovel pig shit for a year.

See!
and some nice lady gave birth to this scum.

[Hitcher]

The Close Up story could hardly be described as balanced.

Many commercial pig farmers in New Zealand use farrowing stalls. Pigs are carnivorous cannibals. The frames are designed to stop sows either rolling on top of and crushing their young or eating them. The cages minimise piglet death and enhance their wellbeing. In many cases the sow only stays in the cage until the piglets are weaned.

As for the squealing, anybody who has ever been into a commercial piggery generally knows that pigs often associate the presence of humans with food. Once one starts squealing, they all start. It's deafening and only stops once the last pig starts eating.

Chewing at the bars demonstrating psychological trauma or distress? Pigs are inveterate gnawrers. The will chew at most things they encounter. Chewing causes salivation (foaming). If you think that's bad you should see the extent of foam at mating time.

That said, there are some commercial pig farmers whose animal husbandry practices leave much to be desired. That does not unilaterally make farrowing stalls a bad thing.

SAFE is run by political vegans. Any of their claims need to be taken with several grains of salt as their aim is to sensationalise.

As for current affairs programmes, watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIUOD99E1hs&feature=related

[awayatc]

evrybody has a voice
anybody can make a difference
we all can put our money where our mouths are.......

[Madness]

It's no worse than Chickens. I'm not condoning it but it shouldn't have come as a suprise to the people that claim that it did.

A guy I worked with left one of the most recession-resistant industries around to work in Smallgoods. Swine Flu had him shitting himself about his job, now this.

[boomer]

See!
and some nice lady gave birth to this scum.


thats a bit harsh aint it..??! all becuase he has a different view to you, you abuse him??! You dont hear me calling u a goat loving hick.. do you????!!!


My old fella spends all his time locked up in my boxer shorts.. u dont hear me crying out.. FREE HIM FREE HIM.. do u>>!!

[Hitcher]

Meat is murder. Tasty, delicious murder.

[Trudes]

To me it's like chicken and eggs, I've bought free range eggs ever since I went to a "battery" chicken farm and ended up in tears over the way the poor things were treated. The problem I find with free range chicken however is that the cuts are limited, so unless you buy a whole chicken it's bloody hard to get a couple of breast pieces.
As for Pork, if I could be sure it WAS free range I'd probably buy it, however short of going to an organics store or something, how can you be sure? I have looked at packets of bacon to make sure that I'm buying 100% NZ Pork (not made with pork from overseas & NZ) but I still couldn't find anywhere where it says if it was free range or not.
Hopefully all this will bring about clearer labelling so people can make informed choices if they wish to (or should I say, if they can afford to) and with any luck make even a few people think a little harder about where their meat (meat products and eggs) comes from and the conditions that animal lived in.
I just received a reply from one of John Key's letter writers today about the protest letter I sent him regarding the proposed reinstatement of live sheep exportation..... blah blah blah, a whole heap of bull-shit as always, however the squeaky wheel gets the oil, and like this, if people stop buying caged Pork products, cage eggs and chicken etc then things will change, until then they probably won't much. I guess we can be thankful at least that NZ has pretty good animal welfare legislation unlike many other supposedly "civilised" countries.
Rant over.

[Quasievil]

See!
and some nice lady gave birth to this scum.

oooo sorry to upset your treehug group meeting but welcome to reality.

Pigs are in Farrows for a short period in their life generally 4 weeks for fatting up before the cull
have you ever tried free ranging large numbers of Pigs ???? its impossible mortality rate is huge and they fuck everything including water lines troughs the lot

For the record, I dont eat Pigs do you?

[cave weta]

thats a bit harsh aint it..??! all becuase he has a different view to you, you abuse him??! You dont hear me calling u a goat loving hick.. do you????!!!


My old fella spends all his time locked up in my boxer shorts.. u dont hear me crying out.. FREE HIM FREE HIM.. do u>>!!

what is your definition of scum? - mine is something that floats around on the surface has no depth and is not truely representitive of what realy lies beneath

Edit; I havent been a meat eater for about 10 years. reasons are my health is better, Im not supporting cruelty to animals and I save money.

Occasionaly I still eat some meat - but only if it is all that is available and Im really hungry.
I dont enjoy it at all anymore. veges really are more interesting when cooked by someone who knows what they are doing.

[Creeping Death]

The Close Up story could hardly be described as balanced.

Many commercial pig farmers in New Zealand use farrowing stalls. Pigs are carnivorous cannibals. The frames are designed to stop sows either rolling on top of and crushing their young or eating them. The cages minimise piglet death and enhance their wellbeing. In many cases the sow only stays in the cage until the piglets are weaned.

As for the squealing, anybody who has ever been into a commercial piggery generally knows that pigs often associate the presence of humans with food. Once one starts squealing, they all start. It's deafening and only stops once the last pig starts eating.

Chewing at the bars demonstrating psychological trauma or distress? Pigs are inveterate gnawrers. The will chew at most things they encounter. Chewing causes salivation (foaming). If you think that's bad you should see the extent of foam at mating time.

That said, there are some commercial pig farmers whose animal husbandry practices leave much to be desired. That does not unilaterally make farrowing stalls a bad thing.

SAFE is run by political vegans. Any of their claims need to be taken with several grains of salt as their aim is to sensationalise.

As for current affairs programmes, watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIUOD99E1hs&feature=related

Good read Hitcher and I like the similarities with the Vid Clip.

Cheers.

[James Deuce]

Why can't I buy a nice ham and cheese sandwich?

Decent thick ham, lovely Swiss cheese, and some nice fresh bread.

Why can I buy Ham and mayo (yuk), or cheese and onion destroyed by large globs of mayo (double yuk) sandwich? I like neither.

Ham and cheese. Maybe with a nice chutney or dijon mustard.

Ham and cheese you lunkheads.

For a suposedly farm oriented economy a lot of NZ residents are remarkably divorced from the necessities of farming animals for food.

For those of you who won't eat veal, it simply means that the bull calf will be shot (or stunned), burned, and pushed in a hole (Or maybe ground up into meal to be fed back to their mums). That's called "waste", especially in a world filled with poverty. Only the rich can afford to be that discriminating about their food.

Remember, you're being delicate about the cornerstone of your economy. Primary produce.

[cave weta]

I would like to appologise to Quasi for using a bad word to describe my feelings for someone who admits supporting animal cruelty.
But other than scum I dont realy know another word that would do justice.

Oh hitcher too- perhaps if you get more involved yourself - you will understand.

Im off to watch telly- its 7pm.

[James Deuce]

I would like to appologise to Quasi for using a bad word to describe my feelings for someone who admits supporting animal cruelty.
But other than scum I dont realy know another word that would do justice.

Oh hitcher too- perhaps if you get more involved yourself - you will understand.

Im off to watch telly- its 7pm.

"Animal cruelty" is simply a perception pushed by propaganda artists with an agenda that fundamentally adds up to lining their own pockets with cash on the back of temporary middle class "outrage".

Other people in your society have allowed you to make a choice in how you eat, and I hope clothe yourself. You could at least be polite.

There seem to be a lot of "Animal Cruelty" campaigners on KB who are quite fond of leather.

[gatch]

I think these lovers of pigs shold hang around some hungry wild pigs and see what happens when you go up to them saying "ohh cutesy wee piggy".

Mother fuckers going to try kill and eat you too, pigs don't give a fuck about morals, neither do I, pork tastes good..

And it angers jews.

[cave weta]

There seem to be a lot of "Animal Cruelty" campaigners on KB who are quite fond of leather.

What you do with the deceased body of an animal is a lot different to making its living life a misery.

cremated or buried?- sausages or steaks? is not what we are discussing here.

[Swoop]

There seem to be a lot of "Animal Cruelty" campaigners on KB who are quite fond of leather.
Can we roast them and cover them in apple sauce?

[Madness]

I've never seen a happy looking Lentil.

[pzkpfw]

cremated or buried?- sausages or steaks? is not what we are discussing here.

Bugger.

You're making me hungry.

[Pussy]

There was a thoughtful cockie at Rerewhakaaitu where I grew up....
he planted potatoes with each individual tuber wrapped in plastic, so they didn't get dirt in their eyes while they were rooting....

[Hitcher]

Oh hitcher too- perhaps if you get more involved yourself - you will understand.

I am most curious to know what it is that you think I don't understand. I hope you're not judging me because I am prepared to voice a different view?

[Paul in NZ]

Good to see Mr. King has a backbone.




One wonders if Mr King will refund the $$ his (ex) employers provided for him? Pork industry should sue him...

[James Deuce]

What you do with the deceased body of an animal is a lot different to making its living life a misery.

cremated or buried?- sausages or steaks? is not what we are discussing here.

You may want to actually think that one through. Without the food trade, the leather industry wouldn't have the volume of leather it needed without creating a wasted mountain of meat, and in many markets, a wasted mountain of meat is precisely how leather is harvested.

Once upon a time, there used to be a small trade, but a financially significant one, in drum skins. Drum heads are still called "skins" by the uninitiated, despite them having been made from mylar, almost exclusively, for about 50 years now.

This was an example of extreme cruelty in practice, because to make a perfect drum skin you need unpigmented, unscarred, uncalloused skin. It needs to be a uniform thickness also. These drum skins came from the deliberately aborted foetuses of cows, they were born out of conventional season at the start of winter, in darkened barns (don't want sunlight bringing that pigment out) overcrowded with pregnant heifers, mums now considered a bit young to be bearing offspring. The "meat" was discarded.

A change in technology fixed that one and made it an uneconomic practice, in the western world.

See that lovely pair of tabla you have on the shelf there? (I'm assuming there's a few hippies in the audience who like to align their shakras on a frequent basis). Check out how white that drum head is. It'll have a slightly mottled appearance but the overall colour is relatively regular and the texture will be smooth as a baby's bottom. It is a baby's bottom. One that didn't get born in a conventional sense.

It's cool if you don't want to participate, but don't expect sympathy if you demand other's conform to your way of thinking and acting. Living without farmed animal products is a vastly more daunting task than many people imagine. If you raise and butcher your own animals, tend your own chickens, grow your own veges good on you. You've got vastly more disposable income (cash and time) than I do. But I don't have to live like that and none of us deserve the abuse being hurled.

[James Deuce]

Can we roast them and cover them in apple sauce?

Don't forget to burn them. It wouldn't be a proper manly BBQ without burning.

[Quasievil]

I would like to appologise to Quasi for using a bad word to describe my feelings for someone who admits supporting animal cruelty.
But other than scum I dont realy know another word that would do justice.

Oh hitcher too- perhaps if you get more involved yourself - you will understand.

Im off to watch telly- its 7pm.

Youre an idiot, a one sided tv presentation and some media hype and you feel like a soapbox is your rightful medium lol, fine I walk past laughing

[Trudes]

I don't think the point is what happens to animals after they have been slaughtered (I LOVE meat!! And leather) it's really about humans supposedly being the higher evolved species that one may expect to have some compassion or at the least respect for what we wear and eat while it is alive. Yep, I'm a peace loving, tree hugging hippy, whatever. I also treat old people with respect and don't beat children.

[scracha]

You hard assed meat eating wankers out there will say toughen up and pull your pansy head in.
cos you are a tough meat eating kiwi male.


We "grow" our own pork, beef, lamb and eggs mate. All free-range. You wouldn't believe how much work goes into it though. You want a pack of free-range bacon for $5, it aint gonna happen. I'm sure many famers want to go back to more traditional methods of rearing animals but the fact of life is that the supermarkets dictate the prices and thus the methods that need to be employed.

[Hitcher]

While we're on the subject of ignorant hypocrisy, let's pause and consider for a moment all of the people in this Great Nation of ours who own pet cats and dogs. Perhaps the same cats and dogs that SAFE in its annual street fundraising appeal purports to protect.

Hmmm. Pet food. I wonder what that's made out of?

People have the right to exercise freedom of choice if they're that concerned about where their food has come from, or if they are deniers about the omniverousness of humans.

In either case I hope they find their free-range, organic, non-GM, fair trade, lesbian-whale-free, unionised-labour produced tofu burger delicious.

[cave weta]

I don't think the point is what happens to animals after they have been slaughtered (I LOVE meat!! And leather) it's really about humans supposedly being the higher evolved species that one may expect to have some compassion or at the least respect for what we wear and eat while it is alive. Yep, I'm a peace loving, tree hugging hippy, whatever. I also treat old people with respect and don't beat children.

Thankyou Trudes- perhaps when you say it -it sounds like sense.

[nallac]

mmmm pork I love it.......both types....

[Trudes]

Thankyou Trudes- perhaps when you say it -it sounds like sense.

Nah, it's more like everyone has just learnt to ignore my posts.

[MisterD]

Don't the meedja just love a beat-up...that's exactly what this is and I don't blame those farmers that gave a firm "no" to Close Up either.

I call bullshit on that line the animal rights types are pushing that "they could hear the screaming from a kilometer away before they even got near". The pigs wouldn't squeal unless there was a reason...if they were truly neglected it'd be like one of the Romanian orphanges where the kids don't cry because they've learnt that nobody cares.

Now, the more important question is, why the fuck can't I get properly cured bacon that doesn't leak white fucking water into the frying pan?

[cave weta]

While we're on the subject of ignorant hypocrisy, let's pause and consider for a moment all of the people in this Great Nation of ours who own pet cats and dogs. Perhaps the same cats and dogs that SAFE in its annual street fundraising appeal purports to protect.

Hmmm. Pet food. I wonder what that's made out of?

People have the right to exercise freedom of choice if they're that concerned about where their food has come from, or if they are deniers about the omniverousness of humans.

In either case I hope they find their free-range, organic, non-GM, fair trade, lebian-whale-free, unionised-labour produced tofu burger delicious.

Part of the way I feel about these things is because I used to work as an engineer in the smallgoods petfood and 'protein' industry. - It would turn your stomach to see what goes into anything other than butchers cuts. Petfood- even worse.
I know all the tricks they use to get every last cent out of an animal.

But the issue is how they are treated while they are in our care -that the law says that you can legally torture one spieces
but not the other-it is pure hypocricy

[cave weta]

Now, the more important question is, why the fuck can't I get properly cured bacon that doesn't leak white fucking water into the frying pan?

Ha!- I can answer that for you, its because the Needling drums inject 20litres of soy protien and tapwater into every 60kgs of ham and bacon.
you are paying for 30% water when you buy ham and bacon - hows that?!

[Trudes]

Now, the more important question is, why the fuck can't I get properly cured bacon that doesn't leak white fucking water into the frying pan?

Your pan isn't hot enough.

[Trouser]

Now, the more important question is, why the fuck can't I get properly cured bacon that doesn't leak white fucking water into the frying pan?

Try woolworths deli shoulder bacon. Best I have had. Zero watery gunge.

I'm going to have a pork roast on Saturday with acres of fatty, salty, hairy, crunchy crackling. No vegetables will be harmed in the process.

[Maha]

Try woolworths deli shoulder bacon. Best I have had. Zero watery gunge.

I'm going to have a pork roast on Saturday with acres of fatty, salty, hairy, crunchy crackling. No vegetables will be harmed in the process.

And kids, dont try this at home!

[jafar]

Now, the more important question is, why the fuck can't I get properly cured bacon that doesn't leak white fucking water into the frying pan?

Good question, the answer is they pump the meat with water to bring it up to weight.
When your buying your bacon & see liquid in the packaging, leave it & buy another brand. Generally the more expensive packets will have a bit less water in them.

Bacon & eggs with hash browns & toast & Coffee.... It has to be Sunday :niceone:

http://www.pork.co.nz/Recipes.aspx :apumpin:

[Maha]

Bacon & eggs with hash browns & toast & Coffee.... It has to be Sunday :niceone:


Please say you add Baked Beans?

[Trudes]

Try Kiwi Heritage Bacon..... the triple smoked is yum!
http://www.woolworths.co.nz/HomeShopping/Shop.aspx?Target=Product&Stockcode=282116

[jafar]

Please say you add Baked Beans?

Hey if your coming down mate I'll make sure there is lots of baked beans & an open window:msn-wink:

[CookMySock]

SAFE is run by political vegans. Any of their claims need to be taken with several grains of salt as their aim is to sensationalise.Isn't all of the media the same? Every time I find myself dragged into watching TV there is some alarming bullshit on it that is intentionally designed to polarise one part of society against another. Solution? Turn the TV off.

Steve

[Quasievil]

Part of the way I feel about these things is because I used to work as an engineer in the smallgoods petfood and 'protein' industry. - It would turn your stomach to see what goes into anything other than butchers cuts. Petfood- even worse.
I know all the tricks they use to get every last cent out of an animal.

But the issue is how they are treated while they are in our care -that the law says that you can legally torture one spieces
but not the other-it is pure hypocricy

so youre Kind like the Adolf Eichmann of the extermination of animals ?:msn-wink:

[doc]

In either case I hope they find their free-range, organic, non-GM, fair trade, lebian-whale-free, unionised-labour produced tofu burger delicious.Yeah...and we want land rights for gay whales!!:eek:

[Kickaha]

lebian-whale-free

Lebian?...can someone help Hitcher out with the correct spelling on that one :bleh:

[ynot slow]

Re canabilism,if you have ever seen a wild boar gut a new born lamb and eat it,pretty gruesome.Yep the land was typical hill country with minimal fencing etc,and backed onto the Wanganui river after a 3 hour hike.

The fact that most people wouldn't/couldn't afford free range or organic meat and eggs or vegetables is true,might also result in less carcenogenic food in the human chain.In a real world situation that would be bliss.

My father raises about 2 or 3 piglets around spring time,they use up the leftover colostrum from calf raising,they stay in sheds with outside runs.No worries there,but one year they got piglets from one litter,then decided to grab another 3 for (xmas presents for us kids)from another litter.Kept them next to each other,but the little buggers didn't like each other.

They had a partition between them of plywood,one day the wood was knocked over,luckily I was cleaning the calf shed next to them,bad move #1 was forgetting the shed had a lower roof and whacking head on beam,OUCH,bad move#2 was getting into the older groups' pen to refix plywood,getting bitten on the leg aint nice,even through the red bands,jumped the rail and fixed from younger groups pen.Amazing the difference in attitudes 4 weeks made on pigs.And watching them feed is survival of fittest almost,luckily the food was plentiful at meal time.

[scumdog]

You hard assed meat eating wankers out there will say toughen up and pull your pansy head in.
cos you are a tough meat eating kiwi male.


But what if you treated a dog or a horse or a cat or even a goat this way?

You would be arrested and the public would be horrified that you could do such a thing!

I know more than few people I'd be happy to see 'live' in one of those pens...;)

[scumdog]

, lebian-whale-free,

Does that mean all Lebanese whales are banned??:scratch:<_<

[Maha]

Is it conceivable that Mike King did not know anything about the caged pigs? After seven years of fronting the adds for NZ Pork, seems a little odd that he has just found out about it via a friend sending him a short vid from SAFE?

Is it possible that SAFE may have notified King (in some way) at an earlier stage about what he was selling?

[James Deuce]

Does that mean all Lebanese whales are banned??:scratch:<_<
They could be plebian with a silent "p".

[Hitcher]

They could be plebian with a silent "p".

There's a silent P in swimming...

[xwhatsit]

Is it conceivable that Mike King did not know anything about the caged pigs? After seven years of fronting the adds for NZ Pork
Yes, that's what strikes me as shit -- if you're going to endorse something, at the very least try and understand the product you're going to put your name behind. Shampoo ads, investment companies, air conditioners... do any of these people actually believe in what their doing or is it just for the money?

Current affairs shows are about as untrustworthy as media gets. But even still, it certainly puts a city-dweller like me in touch with what goes on. One sort of imagines pigs roaming free under the sky... Farmer Jimmy walks out of his thatched cottage and cranks the Massey Ferguson TR231 over... waves to Bessie the cow as he trundles out into the field...

Bacon's the shit though :niceone: And there's no way in hell you're going to get me to give up my black pudding.

[Phurrball]

I knew this thread would arrive, and I knew that it would go like this (on KB at least.)

I resisted starting it myself, so thanks Mr Weta for taking the heat. Folks round here don't like it when people hold differing opinions. Pluralism and educated debate on a topic like this on KB - Tui ad material.

It's pretty easy to take the piss about "land rights for gay lesbian whales" and mock the hippies rather than face some of the more egregious practices that bring us "affordable" meat and allow the "cornerstone of our economy" to remain profitable. I'm disappointed, but not surprised by the same old clichés and arguments that comprise most of this thread.

Before you all start cracking lentil jokes- a backgrounder on me:
Vegetarian since I was old enough to think critically about eating meat (10 1/2 years old).

Leather wearing. Have shot possums and rabbits.

Partner and family all eat meat.

I've studied NZ's first 'Animals and the law' paper as part of my law degree. So I know more about the NZ law regarding animals than most.
[FYI the paper dealt with the law as it is and perhaps ought to be regarding animals from ALL perspectives. They don't do hippie propaganda at one of NZ's better law schools.]

As an added bonus I can tell you about food borne illness and meat too, since I have a microbiology degree [where I genetically modified bacteria routinely, and where animal models were the norm in immunology papers - not so hippy now eh?]

So - like all people, it's all shades of grey and a certain level of hypocrisy here. I can back up arguments up though, and I've heard every mocking comment ever devised to deride vegetarians too - so bring it!

I am impressed by how well SAFE have handled the media. A really slick and professional job on their part. Top flight PR assistance? I doubt it on their budget (Although their job almost does itself with some of the images they bring to light)

Does it have to be like this so you can all have your bacon? The likes of Havoc farms (http://www.havocfarm.co.nz/) would disagree I think. Even the Pork industry spokesman has agreed this is a bad look, and that its members are moving away from the use of crates to a greater or lesser extent. (less than 50% or some such in crates.)

(Oh, while we're at it, let's feed factory farm pigs and chickens glycopeptide antibiotics as 'growth promotors', 'cos selectively breeding glycopeptide resistant Enterococci bacteria is such a good idea!:eek:)

You can here more of the stats etc by right-click saving (or steaming) this link to 8.5MB mp3 interview from Radio NZ National this morning (http://podcast.radionz.co.nz/ntn/ntn-20090519-0909-Pig_farming_controversy-048.mp3). You may have heard it, but if I was stereotyping, I'd say all 'real-men meat-eating biker' types would be listening to the Rock or other such syndicated commercial crap :bleh:

What is most disturbing (and what SAFE keep pointing out) is that pigs (and chickens) are specific exceptions to the welfare standards that are applied to every other animal in NZ law.

Don't believe me? Here it is in NZ statute (http://legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1999/0142/latest/DLM49664.html?search=ts_act_animal+welfare_resel)

Have a look at the way the act says we should treat animals (up to s14 or so). All of that does not apply to pigs. A lesser standard is applied. What you all saw on TV was perfectly legal. Schedule 4 tells us the exceptions to the act.

There is no rational justification for this at all. Lets just say that powerful industry interests have a rather disporoprtionate say at NAWAC.

As for the farmers - yes, they can deny entry to anyone. But really, what have they got to hide? If it's just fine to treat pigs like that, explain to people as you take them through WHY it has to be that way. People aren't stupid, they'll make up their own minds. I think many people are too blissfully ignorant as to how meat ends up on their plate.

'Fast food nation' By Eric Schlosser is a good read on the evils of factory meat production.

If you're feeling academic, browse Animal Law in Australasia (http://www.willanpublishing.co.uk/cgi-bin/indexer?product=9781862877191) By Peter Sankoff (My lecturer)

[Forest]

The Close Up story could hardly be described as balanced.

Many commercial pig farmers in New Zealand use farrowing stalls. Pigs are carnivorous cannibals. The frames are designed to stop sows either rolling on top of and crushing their young or eating them. The cages minimise piglet death and enhance their wellbeing. In many cases the sow only stays in the cage until the piglets are weaned.

As for the squealing, anybody who has ever been into a commercial piggery generally knows that pigs often associate the presence of humans with food. Once one starts squealing, they all start. It's deafening and only stops once the last pig starts eating.

Chewing at the bars demonstrating psychological trauma or distress? Pigs are inveterate gnawrers. The will chew at most things they encounter. Chewing causes salivation (foaming). If you think that's bad you should see the extent of foam at mating time.

That said, there are some commercial pig farmers whose animal husbandry practices leave much to be desired. That does not unilaterally make farrowing stalls a bad thing.

SAFE is run by political vegans. Any of their claims need to be taken with several grains of salt as their aim is to sensationalise.

As for current affairs programmes, watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIUOD99E1hs&feature=related

Whoops! I accidentally gave you a red rep for your post.

Which is a pity because I completely agreed with what you wrote.

Sorry about that!

[scracha]

f you raise and butcher your own animals, tend your own chickens, grow your own veges good on you. You've got vastly more disposable income (cash and time) than I do. But I don't have to live like that and none of us deserve the abuse being hurled.
I beg to differ. If after being informed of their living conditions you're happy to help fund the way these animals are "grown" then you deserve every bit of abuse being hurled at you. There is a good bit of middle ground between cheap "battery raised" and very expensive "free range". The gubbernment needs to get involved to have minimum standards for animal welfare, and this must also apply to imported meat.

Keeping a couple of pigs...yeah, a whole 10 minutes a day. Chickens need next to no time nor investment. If you've got a patch of grass then sheep or goats are almost zero work. Most kiwis spend more time wasting petrol mowing their lawn than it takes to keep an animal (fuck my neighbours...if my grass annoys them so much they can cut it themselves). Animal welfare aside, when I eat meat I don't particularly want to absorb the chemicals that they pump into animals these days. Have you seen the price of that watery $hite they call meat at the supermarket these days? I don't think the cost argument is as clear-cut as the battery farmers would have you believe.

Hitcher, sows generally only roll over or eat their piglets when they're under-fed and kept in space constrained un-natural conditions.

[CookMySock]

If after being informed of their living conditions you're happy to help fund the way these animals are "grown" then you deserve every bit of abuse being hurled at you.If you take license to "hurl abuse" at fellow society on that basis, then you are very little different from the animals in question.

Take a look around yourself, and step outside of your own opinion. We are all people with feelings and families, just like you, so slow down a bit and take a look at the bigger picture.

Steve

[SixPackBack]

PR or not I will be changing my eating habits as I suspect will a lot of NZers. If it costs me a little extra to source meat from free range sources where animals have lead a happy life with a modicum of respect then so be it.

Two points I have picked up on:

The animal is being grown for slaughter so it does not matter how it is treated-false logic I believe, everyone of my dogs has been put down [for whatever reason].
Pigs are vicious cannibals and as such need to be locked up- I draw your attention to human beings, the most vicious and destructive of all animals [and cannibals given half a chance].
Meat is murder.

[pzkpfw]

It could be worse.

[Finn]

Is it conceivable that Mike King did not know anything about the caged pigs?

Dunno but how about the overly high representation of Maori cruelty against their own litters? What is Mike King doing about this?

Boy oh boy is this thread making me hungry. Now I'm normally a fruitshake kind of guy in the morning after a run but this morning I had lashings of bacon and eggs. Came to work with a chubby on. I'm gonna have a pork roast this Sunday and tonight, I'm going to one of may favourite restaurants to have pork bellies.

[sinfull]

I've met a fair share of pigs in my time And i say no to farming them !!!

[Hitcher]

Animal welfare matters aside, this whole discussion is an indulgence for the affluent, well fed, urbanised, middle class, western world.

The developed world's consumers demand affordable, tasty, nutritious, convenient and safe food. And that is what they get.

If they are prepared to pay more to asuage their "consciences" about the food they're eating, that's fine. I'm sure there will be food producers who will capitalise on that market opportunity.

But lets consider for one moment food production on a global scale.

While we with our full stomachs are getting in a lather about whether sows are caged for farrowing, several billion other humans on this planet have no idea where their next meal is coming from and aren't going to have their consciences troubled about the origins of that food if it ever arrives.

Despite my current employment, I am an agriculturalist. That's how I was brought up, that's how I was trained, and that's how I paid my mortgage for a while. As an agriculturalist I struggle with many of the arguments I hear put forward on an almost daily basis by folks who are distressed about various aspects of how their food is produced and what they think it contains. Many of their fears are groundless and based on what's currently fashionable. I dispair.

Politics aside, the world can be adequately fed. I believe that we have all of the technology and systems available to do this in an environmentally sustainable manner. Unfortunately for those who are religiously agin them, "factory farming" and genetically modified products are an essential element of such an objective.

A logical consequence of the food production systems propounded by "green" activists is local subsistence farming. Environmentally such practices are a disaster.

Surely being able to grow more low cost, high quality food, with fewer inputs such as pesticides and fertiliser, in areas where water is plentiful is a good thing? Wouldn't it be great if the vast acreages around the world that are marginal or worse for food production could be allowed to revert to their natural state and retired as national parks, enhancing biodiversity and other environmental benefits?

The 40-Hour Famine will be along in a while. I guess those who are exercising "choice" about their pork products can then take the opportunity to salve their global famine consciences by sponsoring some high school kid to live on barley sugars and fruit juice for a weekend.

[Finn]

While we with our full stomachs are getting in a lather about whether sows are caged for farrowing, several billion other humans on this planet have no idea where their next meal is coming from and aren't going to have their consciences troubled about the origins of that food if it ever arrives.

I know exactly what you mean Hitcher. I have no idea what to have for lunch today. Shall I,

a) Go home and fix something up
b) Go out to a restaurant
c) Go up the road to the delicatessen

No idea.

[oldrider]

With the recent cracklings emerging from within the New Zealand Pork Industry, does/would it change your way of thinking when it comes to buying Pork Products?
I for one, think the whole thing is fucking disgusting, they way the Pigs are treated for up to five years, I also never knew this was going on.
Free range pork??..would you buy it instead of caged Pork knowing that the price is almost (in some cases) double that of caged pork (the pork most of us has been eating forever)
Will you now start reading the words on the back of bacon packets?

When purchasing food items, it comes down to price in some cases, on Saturday, we gave up a pork leg roast and bought a smaller rolled pork piece instead...governed by the price, but im tight like that.

Just out of interest, we purchased some pork products from the "heralded" Waimate free range pork shop and it was bloody disgusting!

So much so, that we will not go back there again! :doh:

Just quoting our experience after watching some similar earlier TV footage on this subject. :shifty:

[HenryDorsetCase]

I know exactly what you mean Hitcher. I have no idea what to have for lunch today. Shall I,

a) Go home and fix something up
b) Go out to a restaurant
c) Go up the road to the delicatessen

No idea.

restaurant. Have a bottle of wine or so and the world looks a much better place.

[Pixie]

I won't eat anything that hasn't suffered for my gratification - and that includes vegetables


Homer: Are you saying you're never going to eat any animal again? What about bacon?
Lisa: No.
Homer: Ham?
Lisa: No.
Homer: Pork chops?
Lisa: Dad, those all come from the same animal.
Homer: Heh heh heh. Ooh, yeah, right, Lisa. A wonderful, magical animal.

[Pixie]

One wonders if Mr King will refund the $$ his (ex) employers provided for him? Pork industry should sue him...

His next campaign will be to expose the chinese slave labour used to manufacture the appliances he advertises for Discount Appliance Warehouse

[Lissa]

Look animals are mistreated for our eating pleasure all over the world. The Asians kill whales, and eat cats and dogs. Old aged horses are sent to be slaughtered for Cat and Dog food. Animals are used for experiments and cosmetic scientific testing. The problem is us consumers, and our need for cheap and available food. If we didnt import cheap pork into NZ the NZ pork farmers would be able to upgrade their farms to have more humane practices.

As far as I can see our pigs are pretty well looked after and all this is TVNZ and TV 3 sensationalism, they cant tell a real news story even if they tried. TV3 Campbell was more interested in letting everyone know that they first run the story in 2006 .. so big boo boo to TVNZ. TVNZ was more interested in bbqing some bacon then telling both sides of the story. When SAFE broke into the piggery of course the pigs were noisy, they thought they were getting a feed. Everything that Hitcher said in his first post is spot on. :niceone:

[Pixie]

Don't the meedja just love a beat-up...that's exactly what this is and I don't blame those farmers that gave a firm "no" to Close Up either.

And when all factory farming is banned they'll do an item on why we are being ripped off when the produce has risen ten fold in price.(like the cheese)
Or they'll bemoan that our agricultural industry was allowed to collapse and everything comes from unregulated southeast asian economies.

[Pixie]

Does that mean all Lebanese whales are banned??:scratch:<_<

No,idiot.He means Plebian whales

[imdying]

Psssh, sucks being the niggers at the bottom of the food chain...

As with most things, exploitation of the planet, gobbling up natural resources, treating stock like crap, etc etc, the real problem is over population.

[Lissa]

problem is over population.Maybe thats the pigs revenge aye? Swine Flu? Or maybe the world just needs a new world war?

[Mully]

This thread makes me want roast pork with crispy roast potatoes and crackling.

Swweeeeeeeeeeeeet.

What's the point of being top of the food chain and eating vegetables?

[ManDownUnder]

Psssh, sucks being the niggers at the bottom of the food chain...
A bit of education will do you the world of good... it's not so bad


As with most things, exploitation of the planet, gobbling up natural resources, treating stock like crap, etc etc, the real problem is over population.

Bingo!

[MSTRS]

This thread makes me want roast pork with crispy roast potatoes and crackling.

Swweeeeeeeeeeeeet.

What's the point of being top of the food chain and eating vegetables?

More to the point, what's the point of having an omnivore's teeth/jaw structure, coupled with the appropriate digestive system and not using it all?
That's not to say we have a 'right' to mistreat animals, however. On the surface, sow crates appear cruel. And probably are. Farmers do not do anything without there being a sound commercial reason. My jury is out on this subject.

[Madness]

the real problem is over population.

Perhaps this (http://smokeandthink.com/blog/?p=529) is the answer then?.

[scracha]

If you take license to "hurl abuse" at fellow society on that basis, then you are very little different from the animals in question.

Take a look around yourself, and step outside of your own opinion. We are all people with feelings and families, just like you, so slow down a bit and take a look at the bigger picture.

Steve

Your right DB. God forbid we upset someone who supports mistreating animals. I'll give a pat on the back to the next farmer I spot who's starving their cows.

The real problem is overbreeding...and I don't mean the animals.

[Phurrball]

Thanks for your post Hitcher, while I disagree strongly on many of the points, I appreciate your perspective and that you have thought it out.

Here's this morning's Morning Report interview (http://podcast.radionz.co.nz/mnr/mnr-20090520-0838-MAF_prepares_its_report_on_a_controversial_pig_far m-048.mp3) with a spokesperson for MAF inspectors that investigated the controversial farm. Unsurprisingly, it's all legal and perfectly OK.


Animal welfare matters aside, this whole discussion is an indulgence for the affluent, well fed, urbanised, middle class, western world.

While you have a point, I beg to differ. It's ALL about animal welfare. (I wish it were about rights, but all animals get is welfare. A gulf exists between the two)

'Blinkered' persons are now aware (and outraged by) practices that are PERFECTLY LEGAL - even though it breaches numerous parts of the AWA. The law says you can treat pigs worse than other animals. Why? It is morally and logically inexcusable.


The developed world's consumers demand affordable, tasty, nutritious, convenient and safe food. And that is what they get.

Do we demand it, or are we given it by the marketers and TOLD we demand it? At what cost to the planet and our own health?

Unlike the aforementioned impoverished WE HAVE THE CHOICE. Just how safe is our food? A lot less safe than many would think. An excellent fringe benefit of vegetarianism is label reading. It's mighty disturbing what is in pre-prepared food - be it astronomical levels of sodium and sugar (cheap way to boost flavour), colourings that are banned in many countries, or sneaky animal products. [Bloody hard to find yoghurt without gelatine]


If they are prepared to pay more to asuage their "consciences" about the food they're eating, that's fine. I'm sure there will be food producers who will capitalise on that market opportunity.
Back to the original point - even the pork industry has said they are moving away from the crates. Sometimes the law has to force change and move slightly ahead of public (or in this case, industry) opinion .

In this case, the code that allows a deliberate breach of the standards specifically for pigs is a hang-over from outmoded practices allowed by the influence of the pork lobby on NAWAC (Who don't do much for animals at all...it's all about human convenience)


But lets consider for one moment food production on a global scale.

While we with our full stomachs are getting in a lather about whether sows are caged for farrowing, several billion other humans on this planet have no idea where their next meal is coming from and aren't going to have their consciences troubled about the origins of that food if it ever arrives. Answered above. A valid point, but I think it's a side issue in this case.


Despite my current employment, I am an agriculturalist. That's how I was brought up, that's how I was trained, and that's how I paid my mortgage for a while. As an agriculturalist I struggle with many of the arguments I hear put forward on an almost daily basis by folks who are distressed about various aspects of how their food is produced and what they think it contains. Many of their fears are groundless and based on what's currently fashionable. I dispair. Fair enough, thanks for the backgrounder. I'm aware of where meat comes from, and the disturbing way in which some of it is produced. I avoid it at all costs. Some choose not to avoid it. Some might well avoid meat (or some meat) if they KNEW how it was produced.

The great irony here is the number of 'red-blooded' meat eaters tucking into sausages full of soy. Those same that would mock tofu and the 'sandal wearers' that partake. :rofl:


Politics aside, the world can be adequately fed. I believe that we have all of the technology and systems available to do this in an environmentally sustainable manner. Unfortunately for those who are religiously agin them, "factory farming" and genetically modified products are an essential element of such an objective.

I agree to some extent. It is much more efficient in environmental and energy terms to feed the world on a vegetarian (or predominantly vegetarian) diet. I don't think you'll argue that more people can be fed for a given area of land on plant-based food, than on animal protein.

[Yes, I know, it's not that simple as not all land is arable, and people will continue to eat meat. The main issue is WHAT meat we eat, and in NZ, HOW MUCH meat we eat.]


A logical consequence of the food production systems propounded by "green" activists is local subsistence farming. Environmentally such practices are a disaster. Really? Perhaps this is true to some extent. Organics does not abandon crops to the ravages of pests and weeds. Strategies like [I]Bacillus thuringiensis toxins for pest control etc enable organics to work quite well.


Surely being able to grow more low cost, high quality food, with fewer inputs such as pesticides and fertiliser, in areas where water is plentiful is a good thing? Wouldn't it be great if the vast acreages around the world that are marginal or worse for food production could be allowed to revert to their natural state and retired as national parks, enhancing biodiversity and other environmental benefits? Quite. I'm sure one day we'll be growing steak in a 'petri dish'. That day isn't here, and I still wouldn't eat it, even though I'd have no moral objection.


The 40-Hour Famine will be along in a while. I guess those who are exercising "choice" about their pork products can then take the opportunity to salve their global famine consciences by sponsoring some high school kid to live on barley sugars and fruit juice for a weekend.

"Choice" is moot in an environment where the products available are shaped by regulation and obfuscation on the part of producers. Consumers are not happy with what they see now. They don't like the lack of openness and information.

Pushed for time, got to go...sorry for any 'grammar fail'

[Lias]

To me animals exist only as a renewable natural resource. I'm as much worried about whether my bacon suffered as I am if my potato suffered. I find the entire concept of animal rights baffling, what next will we have tree rights? I personally do not subscribe to the theory that animals are sentient, but even if they are, it matters not, because we are the superior species and they are in no position to challenge us. To the victor the spoils go, and we won the evolutionary war.

Now I'm off to ask my local butcher if his pork comes from caged animals, and it had bloody well better be if he wants my business!

[Beemer]

I never gave any thought to where my animal-based food came from and how it was treated during its life until people like Jamie Oliver and Hugh Fearnley-Whittingstall started protesting about it. I am an animal lover and I was appalled at the treatment of cage hens and pigs and haven't bought anything other than free range since I became aware of this.

I'm not rich but I choose to spend more on buying free range products so that at least I am not contributing to this system.

Yes, I suppose I'm a hypocrite in that I like meat and won't stop eating it, but at least what I eat has the chance to experience sunshine and fresh air and has the room to move and behave in a more natural manner.

However, I have never liked SAFE's methods and imagine the pigs WOULD have been stressed at being woken up at 2am. I don't condone the way these pigs are farmed, but the law needs to be changed before they can target the farmers because they appear to be acting within the law.

[Finn]

I find the entire concept of animal rights baffling, what next will we have tree rights?

Ever tried to cut one down, especially those South American native to NZ Powhootacarwus?

[NJ83]

The Close Up story could hardly be described as balanced.

Many commercial pig farmers in New Zealand use farrowing stalls. Pigs are carnivorous cannibals. The frames are designed to stop sows either rolling on top of and crushing their young or eating them. The cages minimise piglet death and enhance their wellbeing. In many cases the sow only stays in the cage until the piglets are weaned.

As for the squealing, anybody who has ever been into a commercial piggery generally knows that pigs often associate the presence of humans with food. Once one starts squealing, they all start. It's deafening and only stops once the last pig starts eating.

Chewing at the bars demonstrating psychological trauma or distress? Pigs are inveterate gnawrers. The will chew at most things they encounter. Chewing causes salivation (foaming). If you think that's bad you should see the extent of foam at mating time.

That said, there are some commercial pig farmers whose animal husbandry practices leave much to be desired. That does not unilaterally make farrowing stalls a bad thing.

SAFE is run by political vegans. Any of their claims need to be taken with several grains of salt as their aim is to sensationalise.

As for current affairs programmes, watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIUOD99E1hs&feature=related

+1, exactly right Hitcher

[imdying]

Ever tried to cut one down, especially those South American native to NZ Powhootacarwus?Yeah, not sure what you're getting at though, was easy enough... If you have any more trouble, I'll lend you my chainsaw, it's plenty big enough for those :yes:

[Skyryder]

To me animals exist only as a renewable natural resource. I'm as much worried about whether my bacon suffered as I am if my potato suffered. I find the entire concept of animal rights baffling, what next will we have tree rights? I personally do not subscribe to the theory that animals are sentient, but even if they are, it matters not, because we are the superior species and they are in no position to challenge us. To the victor the spoils go, and we won the evolutionary war.

http://www.aapn.org/fooddogs.html

These are extreeme photos taken from the above link. I'm not involved in animal rights but I will take my hat off to anybody who improves the lot of man or beast.


Skyryder

[Lias]

http://www.aapn.org/fooddogs.html

These are extreeme photos taken from the above link. I'm not involved in animal rights but I will take my hat off to anybody who improves the lot of man or beast.


Skyryder

Jokes about chinese takeaways aside, I wouldnt mind trying cat/dog meat, just to see what its like.

[HenryDorsetCase]

I find the best way to improve crackling is to fairly liberally salt the fat before roasting.

[oldrider]

Jokes about chinese takeaways aside, I wouldnt mind trying cat/dog meat, just to see what its like.

My hearing is not that good these days but I swear I overheard a cat and a dog discussing "what human flesh tastes like" while walking home from the pub just the other night. :eek:

I thew a stick at the cheeky cunts! :rofl:

[gatch]

To be perfectly honest I just don't give a fuck how they are treated. Really, couldn't care less.

There is so many much worse things going on in the world that noone loses sleep over, but because this is now in the media spot light it turns friends against friends because all of a sudden your a cruel malicious cunt, with no morals.

Hows this then, I'll cry a river for these pigs and SAFE can build the bridge..

[Big Dave]

Sad to see any animals suffer - but the correct KB response is to blame the pigs.

[Skyryder]

Sad to see any animals suffer - but the correct KB response is to blame the pigs.

Probably HOG riders in a previous life. That's Karma for ya :jerry:


Skyryder

[Phurrball]

@MSTRS whether the human dentition and digestive tract are designed to be omnivorous is highly arguable.

Look at our nearest relatives (the great apes) - IIRC, the only meat-eater there is the chimpanzee - and they eat meat rarely. Western humans eat far, far too much meat. It shows in our bowel cancer statistics. Gorillas have pretty mean teeth, but are completely vegetarian. Let's face it though, we have transcended them in that WE have the ability to make a CONSCIOUS CHOICE.

People have to make their own decision to eat meat or be vegetarian.

But too many have their heads in the sand and happily consume all sorts of tidy, sterile meat from packets with not a thought towards where it came from.

If you're aware of the reality and choose to partake, that's up to you. I have less issue with meat eaters of this kind than the 'head in the sand' kind.

@those who don't give a fuck. The nervous systems of animals are basically identical to us. Pigs are so similar, it's possible to use porcine organs in a human (Issues of rejection and procine endogenous retroviruses aside...)

That the law says it's OK to do this to pigs, who are such close cousins is what is really disturbing.

There is an awful lot of science, jurisprudence and philosophy that begs to differ with the assertion that animals are not sentient. It's not really an either/or - In reality it's more of a gradient from unicellular organisms up to mammals, parrots and then the great apes just below humans.

Ponder this: we only have our own perspective. It may just be that some animals feel some things more deeply than us - for example, could a dog more loving and loyal than the average human? We can't really know this for sure. But we can pause to consider it as a possibility. It's very difficult to consider this without anthropomorphic attributions though.

(much smarter people than I have made very good cases for this idea of consciousness and 'emotions' in animals - don't have the refs for this at hand ATM sorry).

Part of being human is empathy. Cruelty to animals is one mark of a psychopath. Truly not giving a shit (as opposed to just saying that) is really only a step away. If you've ever had a pet you cared for, then you probably give more of a shit than you think. It's more likely that you haven't REALLY turned your mind to the issue.

The real issue here is the fact society's rules say we must treat animals a certain way. EXCEPT for pigs and a few others. It's OK to treat them in a way that would be illegal for any other animal. THAT'S what is truly wrong here. (Oh, and invertebrates get no protection whatsoever)

Humans may be on top, and capable of the most precise, beautiful and rational higher thought in this part of the galaxy, but face it - we're basically a pack of c^nts WRT animals and the environment. I don't think it's OK to accept that when we could do so much better. (And I include myself in that. I could do a lot better.)

/Rant

[Hitcher]

Sad to see any animals suffer - but the correct KB response is to blame the pigs.

Boom tish! Give that man a VB, for forsooth he is on a roll this evening!

[Hitcher]

Humans may be on top, and capable of the most precise, beautiful and rational higher thought in this part of the galaxy, but face it - we're basically a pack of c^nts WRT animals and the environment. I don't think it's OK to accept that when we could do so much better. (And I include myself in that. I could do a lot better.)

Although they could be better, New Zealand's animal welfare standards are pretty darned good on a global basis. But I don't think that is SAFE's motivation here in "exposing" this matter which, in case anybody still hasn't heard, involved trespass and illegal entry into a commercial piggery that, while code compliant, is owned by a farmer who has plans to invest in a superior facility from an animal welfare standpoint.

There are many reasons for choosing not to eat meat, but the "sentient beings" reason is probably one of the sillier. About the only animal on this planet (apart from those that are lethally toxic) that isn't on humanity's menu is humanity itself. There are good reasons for this, particularly moral and ethical ones about consuming one's own kind, but there are also legitimate health reasons too. I understand that human flesh is quite delicious when properly prepared. In particular liver, which is allegedly delicious served with fava beans and washed down with a good chianti.

Like any other religious believers, I am more than happy to coexist with Buddhists or even vegans for that matter, on the condition that they do not proselytise and don't unnecessarily protest if I consume them if there is nothing else around to eat.

[scracha]

Although they could be better, New Zealand's animal welfare standards are pretty darned good on a global basis

If by "global" you mean including the majority of the world's standards which are third world then you are correct. If by first world, then I think you're talking shite.


To be perfectly honest I just don't give a fuck how they are treated. Really, couldn't care less.


Dunno if you and Lias are trying to draw attention to yourselves in the same way as Sidewinter and the mormon few but you've got mine.

I'm no greenie townie either, I've killed and skinned animals but they led a good life, died quickly and it was for a purpose. I've got a tough as nails mate who's happens to be a butcher and he despairs at the way kiwi's treat their animals. I'm VERY wary of anyone who couldn't care about animal welfare. There's something not right in the head about the sort of person who can watch another living thing suffer unnecessarily.

Sad really.

[Hitcher]

If by first world, then I think you're talking shite.

I'm feeling polite tonight, so I shall suggest that perhaps you may wish to do some study on this matter.

[scracha]

I'm feeling polite tonight, so I shall suggest that perhaps you may wish to do some study on this matter.
I'm sure you'll educate me but regardless, if other countries find it acceptable to mistreat animals then I guess it's OK for us then? Hey, that gives me an idea...doesn't the majority of the world treat women as 2nd class citizens.......\

I keep hearing Kiwi's waffling on about how they lead the world on this, and lead the world on that, and how they invented this first and do this the best. So it's funny that when they do something that can at best be described as dishonourable, they come out with "well they're faaaar worse than us" or similar comments.

How about NZ stands up for itself and tells the rest of the world to go fuck themselves when it comes to importing CHEAP pork (and other meat) from countries that can't adhere to the standards that the majority of the NZ populace demands.

I'd be far more impressed by the above than the hypocritical "no nuke" but "coal powered power stations and filthy polluting cars are OK" stance we have.

[mynameis]

Sad to see any animals suffer - but the correct KB response is to blame the pigs.

Yeap and everything in the media is BULLSHIT and what's posted on KB by the "know it all" is the gospel truth.

[mynameis]

Phurrball has just owned a few old KB asses ;)

[gatch]

Dunno if you and Lias are trying to draw attention to yourselves

No this is not a popularity contest and I'm not trying to show you how hard I am. Good for you if you care, though do you care enough to actually "stop the torture" ? Have you tried to get the laws changed ?

[Hitcher]

I'm sure you'll educate me but regardless, if other countries find it acceptable to mistreat animals then I guess it's OK for us then?

If you believe that then go right ahead. "Mistreatment" of animals, and women for that matter, is largely a matter of societal norms. As our culture evolves, so too do the standards that we apply to our behaviours. Drink driving and tobacco smoking are two examples.

Compared to most other societies, New Zealand sets a high standard for animal welfare and has codes that continually raise the bar. It's a deliberate strategy intended to stop other countries using our farming practices as a trade barrier against us.

http://www.biosecurity.govt.nz/regs/animal-welfare/nz

[mynameis]

If you believe that then go right ahead. "Mistreatment" of animals, and women for that matter, is largely a matter of societal norms. As our culture evolves, so too do the standards that we apply to our behaviours. Drink driving and tobacco smoking are two examples.

Compared to most other societies, New Zealand sets a high standard for animal welfare and has codes that continually raise the bar. It's a deliberate strategy intended to stop other countries using our farming practices as a trade barrier against us.

http://www.biosecurity.govt.nz/regs/animal-welfare/nz

Except when it comes to pigs, you can treat them like shit.

[gatch]

oops, noob mistake..

please delete..

[scracha]

No this is not a popularity contest and I'm not trying to show you how hard I am. Good for you if you care, though do you care enough to actually "stop the torture" ? Have you tried to get the laws changed ?

Yes, I do my bit. Not as much as some tho'

There's nothing hard about mistreating animals.

Did I mention anything about exporting live animals for slaughter in order to save a few bucks?:jerry:

[Hitcher]

Did I mention anything about exporting live animals for slaughter in order to save a few bucks?

No you didn't. I can hardly wait for this explanation...

[Phurrball]

A clip from yesterday's Campbell live (http://www.3news.co.nz/Video/CampbellLive/tabid/367/articleID/104880/cat/84/Default.aspx#video)

Hat tip to the SAFE stand at University [I'm not a member BTW. Have issues with some of their policies. They're doing well on this though].

Peter Sankoff lectures in Animals and the Law at Auckland Law School. I just love the evasive answer the Pork Board man gives when asked if the practices screened were cruel. Sophistry at its very finest. :LOL:


Although they could be better, New Zealand's animal welfare standards are pretty darned good on a global basis.

Yes, acknowledged as world-leading legislation...until the exemptions...some highlights:

s4 Definition of physical, health, and behavioural needs

In this Act, unless the context otherwise requires, the term physical, health, and behavioural needs, in relation to an animal, includes—

(a) Proper and sufficient food and water:
(b) Adequate shelter:
(c) Opportunity to display normal patterns of behaviour:
(d) Physical handling in a manner which minimises the likelihood of unreasonable or unnecessary pain or distress:
(e) Protection from, and rapid diagnosis of, any significant injury or disease,—
being a need which, in each case, is appropriate to the species, environment, and circumstances of the animal.

s10 Obligation in relation to physical, health, and behavioural needs of animals

The owner of an animal, and every person in charge of an animal, must ensure that the physical, health, and behavioural needs of the animal are met in a manner that is in accordance with both—
(a) Good practice; and
(b) Scientific knowledge.

...Wonderful stuff! Applies to all animals in NZ except the following:

These animals can be treated in ways that breach the act, because the codes of 'welfare' say it's OK. This is the issue. We can be cruel to pigs because the law says it's OK. We can be fined, jailed etc if we treat any other animal this way, but not pigs and the other poor creatures set out below!

Schedule 4
Codes continued in force as codes of welfare issued under this Act
Section 191
1 Code of Recommendations for the Welfare of Circus Animals and Information for Circus Operators.

2 Code of Recommendations and Minimum Standards for the Welfare of Animals Used in Rodeo Events.

3 Code of Recommendations for the Welfare of Exhibit Animals and Information for Animal Exhibit Operators.

4 Code of Recommendations and Minimum Standards for the Welfare of Pigs.

5 Code of Recommendations and Minimum Standards for the Welfare of Layer Hens.

6 Code of Recommendations and Minimum Standards for the Welfare of Broiler Chickens.

What do they have in common? Economic concerns are more important than their welfare.


But I don't think that is SAFE's motivation here in "exposing" this matter which, in case anybody still hasn't heard, involved trespass and illegal entry into a commercial piggery that, while code compliant, is owned by a farmer who has plans to invest in a superior facility from an animal welfare standpoint. [My emphasis. See above]

SAFE's motivation is merely to bring practices in pig farms to the public's attention, and that fact that this is perfectly legal and OK according to NZ law.

The heart of the issue is to show people that reprehensible practices are legal

If owners of SOME commercial piggeries had nothing to hide, and were more forthcoming in allowing access, SAFE would not need to break the law to achieve their aims. The fact that pig farms will not allow access speaks volumes.

I think SAFE have done a remarkable job - as said before, top-flight PR firms couldn't do better. That said, I do not condone breaking and entering. If you can tell me another way SAFE could have brought this practice to the public's attention, I'd love to hear it...



There are many reasons for choosing not to eat meat, but the "sentient beings" reason is probably one of the sillier. About the only animal on this planet (apart from those that are lethally toxic) that isn't on humanity's menu is humanity itself.

Sorry Hitcher, I have either been misunderstood, or I have been unclear as you seem to have the wrong end of the stick - the sentience argument was not aimed at vegetarianism or pig farmers. It was aimed at those who say they don't give a fuck. Yes, overall, it's not top of the list. Environmental concerns ought to be.



There are good reasons for this, particularly moral and ethical ones about consuming one's own kind, but there are also legitimate health reasons too. (Humourous quip snip)

There should be moral, ethical and health considerations considered in relation to eating all meat too (Except, perhaps that required to survive) A pig is pretty damned close to human flesh AFAIK...


Like any other religious believers, I am more than happy to coexist with Buddhists or even vegans for that matter, on the condition that they do not proselytise and don't unnecessarily protest if I consume them if there is nothing else around to eat.

Fair enough. I don't consider myself proselytising - rather arguing logically from a informed position. [Probably better informed on the law than most anyway]

BTW - My canines are plenty sharp from lack of use. Those of us that are not anaemic might put up quite a fight, given our healthy circulatory systems and the fact we're less full of old shit from a high-fibre diet :eek:

Pick off a weak one first...

[gatch]

owned...

Good on you for making an effort, rather than just talking it up..

I still think there is much worse things to worry about.. Help the animals live a better life before we cut them into little bits and eat them or something a little closer to home.. Save the children ? Womans refuge ?

[Phurrball]

owned...

Good on you for making an effort, rather than just talking it up..

I still think there is much worse things to worry about.. Help the animals live a better life before we cut them into little bits and eat them or something a little closer to home.. Save the children ? Womans refuge ?

Quite right. There are worse things to worry about. Of course, vegetarianism for ecological reasons is pretty 'big picture' given the growing middle classes in India and China.

That said, I do think our treatment of animals (as well as women and children) does serve as a barometer of society.

I'm not so much a SAFE kind of guy, given my background genetically modifying things. I'm more of an ARLAN (http://www.arlan.org.nz/) man.

Phew! That's enough for tonight. :sweatdrop

[Hinny]

There's a silent P in swimming...

'I really hate it when your mates come over and you sit around in the pool all afternoon and you are the only one who gets out to go to the toilet.
Fucken mates - go over and piss in their pool.' ( Rodney Rude)

[Slyer]

Pork isn't that great tasting anyway.

Everyone needs to eat more fish.
100% free range, 100% organic and delicious!
Fish get it the best by far. :niceone:
(The ones caught in the wild at least, farmed fish can get it pretty shit. Anyone got any stats on how much of the fish is caught vs farmed?)

Bacon on the other hand...

[Phurrball]

Pork isn't that great tasting anyway.

Everyone needs to eat more fish.
100% free range, 100% organic and delicious!
Fish get it the best by far. :niceone:
(The ones caught in the wild at least, farmed fish can get it pretty shit. Anyone got any stats on how much of the fish is caught vs farmed?)

Bacon on the other hand...

Yes, bacon.

Ever wonder why it's such an unnatural colour?

Meat shouldn't go from red to pink, should go red to brown when cooked. All due to the unnatural oxidation states of the myoglobin in the flesh caused by preservatives. A little carcinogenic too...probably why people love the stuff so much. (Nitrite IIRC - food microbiology many moons ago)

Hate to disappoint Slyer - but unless you're catching your own fish, fish is the single most unsustainable form of animal protein... even if it's healthier than red meat.

Dredged up in nets in a pretty uncontrolled fashion from wild stocks of an indeterminate number. It's why so many fisheries have collapsed. The likes of Orange Roughy are already dead by the time they get to the surface due to the massive pressure differential between their deep home and the surface. Not really natural predation that...blardy humans.

[Slyer]

Yes but what isn't a global conspiracy these days? :bleh:

[MSTRS]

@MSTRS whether the human dentition and digestive tract are designed to be omnivorous is highly arguable.
Not what I've always been taught.

Look at our nearest relatives (the great apes) - IIRC, the only meat-eater there is the chimpanzee - and they eat meat rarely. Western humans eat far, far too much meat. It shows in our bowel cancer statistics. Gorillas have pretty mean teeth, but are completely vegetarian. Let's face it though, we have transcended them in that WE have the ability to make a CONSCIOUS CHOICE.
Regardless of physical attributes, there is always a choice. We make it on a conscious level, or some do because of a peculiarity in their body function. Who knows why some animals have meat-dentition but eat plants. Look at Pandas...

But too many have their heads in the sand and happily consume all sorts of tidy, sterile meat from packets with not a thought towards where it came from.
Yes, and if they had to raise their own animals for eating...they wouldn't.

If you're aware of the reality and choose to partake, that's up to you. I have less issue with meat eaters of this kind than the 'head in the sand' kind.
Personally? Well aware, including killing etc too.

The real issue here is the fact society's rules say we must treat animals a certain way. EXCEPT for pigs and a few others. It's OK to treat them in a way that would be illegal for any other animal. THAT'S what is truly wrong here. (Oh, and invertebrates get no protection whatsoever)
If you remember, I said "That's not to say we have a 'right' to mistreat animals, however. On the surface, sow crates appear cruel. And probably are. Farmers do not do anything without there being a sound commercial reason. My jury is out on this subject." Every kind of animal has different needs, and needs to be handled in ways best suited to that animal. If sow crates meet that need for certain stages of their cycle, then so be it. If proof exists that these unfortunate sows spend their lives in such a contraption, then that is a whole other matter.


How about NZ stands up for itself and tells the rest of the world to go fuck themselves when it comes to importing CHEAP pork (and other meat) from countries that can't adhere to the standards that the majority of the NZ populace demands.
I think you will find that the 'majority of the populace' demands cheap, and really has no interest in the standards under which that cheap meat is produced.
Sure, Joe and Mary Public has been unsettled by this pork industry exposure, but in real terms it matters not a jot to them. Next week, there will be another sensational media event to distract them, and they'll be down the supermarket bypassing the $19/kg 'ethically-raised' bacon to grab the $9/kg pack they've always gone for.


Phurrball has just owned a few old KB asses ;)
:bleh:

[Hinny]

A mate farms pigs and he really looks after them.
Here he has them out to a party.

[Beemer]

...Part of being human is empathy. Cruelty to animals is one mark of a psychopath. Truly not giving a shit (as opposed to just saying that) is really only a step away. If you've ever had a pet you cared for, then you probably give more of a shit than you think. It's more likely that you haven't REALLY turned your mind to the issue...

Well said. Being a carnivore is one thing, not caring how animals of any kind are treated is another. (Don't even get me started on the scum who attacked cattle with knives in Gisborne, hacking one animal's hindquarters off with what is believed to have been an axe, before leaving them bleeding and injured.)

I remember talking to someone once and they said people who love or hate animals are normal - it's the ones who truly don't care, who have absolutely no feelings or concern for animals, who are the ones to keep an eye on. If you love or hate something, you actually give a damn - if you have no feelings whatsoever regarding whether an animal is treated well or abused - that is a worrying sign.

I don't mind saying that despite being a meat eater, if I had to personally kill the animals I ate, I doubt I could do it. I don't have a problem with animals being farmed for food, but I could never shoot an animal or slit its throat to provide my family with food - unless we were starving and it was the only source of food. Yes, I AM a big softie, but at least I can do my bit by not buying pork or eggs raised on farms like this. I buy free range chickens but have to admit I can't always get free range chicken breasts or pieces. If they were available locally all the time, that is all I would buy.

[Lissa]

The debate is about the state of our pigs being farmed for meat. I doubt very much the majority of pig farmers mistreat their animals, the pigs (as everything comes down to), are money. If a pig dies because it hasnt been cared for the farmer is out of pocket. If you dont like the fact that animals are killed (in various ways and not very pleasantly) to feed us then dont eat any meat. To say that you would never farm or care for and then kill your own animals is a cop out if you do in fact eat meat. Whether they are free ranged or not the end result is they die to feed your bellies.

[MSTRS]

The debate is about the state of our pigs being farmed for meat. I doubt very much the majority of pig farmers mistreat their animals, the pigs (as everything comes down to), are money. If a pig dies because it hasnt been cared for the farmer is out of pocket. If you dont like the fact that animals are killed (in various ways and not very pleasantly) to feed us then dont eat any meat. To say that you would never farm or care for and then kill your own animals is a cop out if you do in fact eat meat. Whether they are free ranged or not the end result is they die to feed your bellies.

Almost agree with that. The 'debate' is more about the conditions under which some pigs are farmed. Yes, all meat animals exist purely for the end result, but if there is no need to un-naturally confine them, then why do so?

[Beemer]

TIf you dont like the fact that animals are killed (in various ways and not very pleasantly) to feed us then dont eat any meat. To say that you would never farm or care for and then kill your own animals is a cop out if you do in fact eat meat. Whether they are free ranged or not the end result is they die to feed your bellies.

I'm not sure if this was in response to my post but what I was trying to get across is that I confess to being happy to eat meat, knowing it is raised and killed to feed me, but I personally could not kill an animal myself. It's no different from a beloved pet needing to be put down when it is ill - I can take it to a vet to be euthanaised but there is no way in hell I could do it myself.

Most animals in NZ are farmed and killed as humanely as possible and there are laws about this. Despite it being legal, I don't agree with chickens and pigs being kept in small cages or stalls, so I choose not to buy meat/eggs that has been farmed in this manner.

I don't think it's a cop out to not want to farm, care for or kill animals and yet still eat meat. I don't grow all my own fruit and vegetables either - is it a cop out to buy them from someone else? If you extend this further, basically you are saying we shouldn't eat or use anything we don't grow or create ourselves, which is unrealistic for most of us.

[James Deuce]

My only farming experience is farming pigs.

It was not a nice experience. Free range pig farming means a high mortality rate for piglets. Even the ag inspector sent after a complaint about dead piglets suggested Sow crates until the piglets were weaned.

I'm simply not mentally equipped for farming. Giving animals like pigs "nice" conditions simply gives them scope to break fences, stalls, water troughs, pipes, and kill and eat their piglets. If mum gets irritated when she's feeding them, she'll simply roll over and kill some of them.

The legal twaddle is irrelevant in the face of those challenges.

[MSTRS]

My only farming experience is farming pigs.

It was not a nice experience. Free range pig farming means a high mortality rate for piglets. Even the ag inspector sent after a complaint about dead piglets suggested Sow crates until the piglets were weaned.

I'm simply not mentally equipped for farming. Giving animals like pigs "nice" conditions simply gives them scope to break fences, stalls, water troughs, pipes, and kill and eat their piglets. If mum gets irritated when she's feeding them, she'll simply roll over and kill some of them.

The legal twaddle is irrelevant in the face of those challenges.

And that, in a nutshell, is why crates are used. As long as the sow doesn't spend it's life in one.

[Beemer]

I hear what James is saying and understand that free range chickens pick on each other too. I think what most of us would like is a happy medium if possible - one where animal welfare takes into account these things. Maybe a bit more space, a lot more cleanliness and rotating where the animals are to give them a bit more quality of life. I realise it has to be economical for the farmer and perhaps if it is not possible to do this and still give the animals a better life, we SHOULD be thinking about whether we still want to eat meat.

SAFE does not have the best interests of the general public in mind, they are quite militant and I don't always agree with their methods. Hans Kriek used to be with the SPCA but I don't like him in his new role, he really polarises people.

[Hitcher]

The debate is about the state of our pigs being farmed for meat.

I disagree. The debate that is being forced is whether animals should be farmed at all. Anybody who thinks that that isn't the end game of SAFE and other militant vegan organisations is deluded.

[Phurrball]

I think you will find that the 'majority of the populace' demands cheap, and really has no interest in the standards under which that cheap meat is produced.
(Snip)

Really? That's a pretty cynical view. I think that what the public are waking up to is that all the AW Act covers all animals EXCEPT FOR PIGS and a few others - this is what is most disturbing, and what most people are blissfully ignorant of: "We have GREAT animal welfare laws in NZ!"


Almost agree with that. The 'debate' is more about the conditions under which some pigs are farmed. Yes, all meat animals exist purely for the end result, but if there is no need to un-naturally confine them, then why do so?

How does that sit with your previous post?


My only farming experience is farming pigs.

It was not a nice experience. Free range pig farming means a high mortality rate for piglets. Even the ag inspector sent after a complaint about dead piglets suggested Sow crates until the piglets were weaned.

I'm simply not mentally equipped for farming. Giving animals like pigs "nice" conditions simply gives them scope to break fences, stalls, water troughs, pipes, and kill and eat their piglets. If mum gets irritated when she's feeding them, she'll simply roll over and kill some of them.

The legal twaddle is irrelevant in the face of those challenges.

The former is a likely a consequence of the density of farming and probably goes beyond the scope of my knowledge and what I can adequately comment on. Others who know more than I do have looked at this. Some seem to be able to farm pigs free range with no problem? Only 50% (IIRC from the industry body's statements) of the pork industry uses crates. They speak of moving away from them.


And that, in a nutshell, is why crates are used. As long as the sow doesn't spend it's life in one.

Again, density and the fact that people eat far too much meat. Ethics as distorted by economics. It's a pretty sad indictment that economics should inform animal welfare FOR THE ANIMALS IN SCHEDULE 4 ONLY. Everything else is well within the scope of the act.


(Snip)

SAFE does not have the best interests of the general public in mind, they are quite militant and I don't always agree with their methods. Hans Kriek used to be with the SPCA but I don't like him in his new role, he really polarises people.

I agree in part. I am not a SAFE member, but I do support some of their aims and campaigns. In NZ, the SPCA deals with prosecuting animal cruelty (and to a lesser extent MAF). The SPCA receives no government funding at all and MAF has very few resources for this kind of issue. That's how seriously we take animal 'welfare' in NZ. There is not even a government agency to prosecute cruelty. That's probably why the likes of Mr Kriek left. Among those who take animal issues seriously, there is a high degree of disillusion with the SPCA, MAF , NAWAC (NAWAC is ruled by the animal industries' economic concerns) and the legal framework in general.


I disagree. The debate that is being forced is whether animals should be farmed at all. Anybody who thinks that that isn't the end game of SAFE and other militant vegan organisations is deluded.

Perhaps. Or perhaps they are more realistic and you over-extrapolate? I don't know. The current campaign is to show the glaring inconsistency in the way pigs are treated in comparison to other animals. Why shouldn't we have that debate?

As much as I believe in animals rights (as opposed to welfare, which is a human construct) I have to be pragmatic about how progress can be made. I believe in 'harm minimisation' and achieving progress for the lot of animals through education and the law starting to take animal issues seriously. Believe me, the legal system right up to the judiciary do not take animal issues seriously at all. There are many judgments where the judge uses words to the effect of "It's only an animal" to mitigate the most egregious of crimes - that is what saddens me most of all. Even the current laws are watered down by the judiciary and not enforced as they should be.

[Lissa]

I disagree. The debate that is being forced is whether animals should be farmed at all. Anybody who thinks that that isn't the end game of SAFE and other militant vegan organisations is deluded.

Well it started out about how animals are farmed, was just trying to keep on topic. :laugh:

Did anyone see the news regarding making endangered animals a food source and thus breeding more and taking them off the endangered list? I missed it, but thats what its all about. The only reason we have so many cows, pigs, sheep etc is because we do indeed eat them. How many people would farm these animals if they didn't do it for money/food? They aren't domesticated animals and can be quite expensive to keep.

I think its silly to think that there will never been farmed animals being mistreated, just like alot of people mistreat domesticated animals. Becoming Vegan isnt going to stop people doing so. There are just alot of sick bastards in the world.

[MSTRS]

Really? That's a pretty cynical view. I think that what the public are waking up to is that all the AW Act covers all animals EXCEPT FOR PIGS and a few others - this is what is most disturbing, and what most people are blissfully ignorant of: "We have GREAT animal welfare laws in NZ!"

How does that sit with your previous post?

Even the current laws are watered down by the judiciary and not enforced as they should be.

I see nothing cynical in what I said. It is realistic. Joe and Mary Public just buy their meat according to their wants/purse and never think about where it comes from or how it was produced. And for the most part, they really don't care.

Two different sides. Mine is that we are 'debating' the ethics of caged farming, as it relates to sows, that there must be a valid commercial reason for caging sows or it wouldn't be practised, and that my opinion is that I'm not comfortable with the idea that sows may spend their entire life caged. However, if they do, I don't feel strongly enough that I'd stop eating pork products.

Doesn't that say more about the judiciary, then it does about any particular law?

[Quasievil]

my latest contribution to this thread

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBoLA_BQ4tU

[Phurrball]

I see nothing cynical in what I said. It is realistic. Joe and Mary Public just buy their meat according to their wants/purse and never think about where it comes from or how it was produced. And for the most part, they really don't care.

Probably more semantically correct would be sad...


Two different sides. Mine is that we are 'debating' the ethics of caged farming, as it relates to sows, that there must be a valid commercial reason for caging sows or it wouldn't be practised, and that my opinion is that I'm not comfortable with the idea that sows may spend their entire life caged. However, if they do, I don't feel strongly enough that I'd stop eating pork products.

Emphasis added. When commercial considerations inform ethics, we're fucked... just like the pigs are for that very reason...


Doesn't that say more about the judiciary, then it does about any particular law?

It's society's attitude that ultimately informs sentencing, within the framework of statute and precedent. If people were outraged by the weak sentences handed down to individuals guilty of the most unspeakable acts towards animals, then things would change. Sadly, most people are ignorant and assume the law deals with this adequately. Only a few in the legal community take an interest. As it stands, an animal is a mere chattel in law. IMHO that's wrong.

In this case, the way pigs are treated is informed by the codes of welfare promulgated by NAWAC (De facto = industry's economic concerns). Ya see, it'll never get to the feeble judiciary*, as what is cruel to other animals isn't cruel to pigs... (even though it is...)

[*'Feeble' is my opinion, and only with respect to to most of the prevailing animal welfare sentencing. I have the utmost respect for the learned legal minds that preside over our nation's courts.]

(Oh, and thanks for a most worthy thread to the many that have meaningfully contributed.)

[James Deuce]

3 sows on 6 paddocks over a hectare isn't over crowding. It is poor commercial practice.

[MSTRS]

3 sows on 6 paddocks over a hectare isn't over crowding. It is poor commercial practice.

Fuck paying the kilo price for any of that pork.

[James Deuce]

Farm changed from Dairy to dry-stocking so we had some land to play with.

We should have just built a shed and got three farrowing stalls made up.

[MSTRS]

Ya see, it'll never get to the feeble judiciary*, as what is cruel to other animals isn't cruel to pigs... (even though it is...)

[*'Feeble' is my opinion, and only with respect to to most of the prevailing animal welfare sentencing. I have the utmost respect for the learned legal minds that preside over our nation's courts.]

(Oh, and thanks for a most worthy thread to the many that have meaningfully contributed.)

You seem to miss the fact that it is being said is that sows (in NZ) are in those crates for between 4-6 weeks to allow their young to suckle without being killed by the mother. Where has it been claimed that those sows spend all their life in there? I'm sure that 'overseas' it happens, but here? What's not being said is whether those sows are bred year-round, or just once. Gestation is 16 weeks and I assume that they are not kept 'too' confined during that time. I also guess it's possible that they are bred twice a year, with a 4 week stand-down between each pregnancy/suckling.

I don't follow that the judiciary are apparently feeble in their sentences, yet you have the utmost respect for them. Which is it?

Oh, and who exactly are you sniping at...:dodge:

[mynameis]

Pork sales have been hit and are down, looks like the media is doing a good job aren't they? :laugh:

Who said people didn't care where their meat came from and what kind of life the animal had?

[MSTRS]

Pork sales have been hit and are down, looks like the media is doing a good job aren't they? :laugh:

Who said people didn't care where their meat came from and what kind of life the animal had?

That's this week...give it time (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showpost.php?p=1129221873&postcount=114)

[mynameis]

That's this week...give it time (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showpost.php?p=1129221873&postcount=114)

Meeeeeeeeeh

That man dancing in your avatar has had a few pork chops too many!

[Phurrball]

You seem to miss the fact that it is being said is that sows (in NZ) are in those crates for between 4-6 weeks to allow their young to suckle without being killed by the mother.

Why are 50% of the industry able to do without? [Their own stated figures] To claim welfare reasons for the crates is specious in my opinion. The crates are 'needed' because of farming practices.


Where has it been claimed that those sows spend all their life in there?

I never said that. No one did. It is entirely mandated by the code of welfare. I think Hitcher posted a link to those. The point is (again) that complying with the code breaches the welfare provisions of the act but for the deemed compliance via the code.


I'm sure that 'overseas' it happens, but here? What's not being said is whether those sows are bred year-round, or just once. Gestation is 16 weeks and I assume that they are not kept 'too' confined during that time. I also guess it's possible that they are bred twice a year, with a 4 week stand-down between each pregnancy/suckling. [Emphasis added]

'Assuming', 'guessing' and thinking that 'NZ has great animal welfare' is what the pork industry would love everyone to do, and probably explains their reticence to allow cameras into their farms. It's all in the codes. The codes specifically allow pork farmers to breach welfare standards that would apply to any other animal. That's my biggest problem.


I don't follow that the judiciary are apparently feeble in their sentences, yet you have the utmost respect for them. Which is it?

Oh, and who exactly are you sniping at...:dodge:

I'd need to start quoting cases, and while I could, it would be tedious for all. It's a major part of the Animals and the Law paper at AU law school. I'm also not about to name judges without putting up whole cases and allowing people to make up their own minds. That could be unwise. I'm sniping at the sentences, some comments in cases, and the overall attitude of the legal/governmental/regulatory community that 'it's only an animal'.

I don't have much choice but to respect the judiciary. It's all part of the hierarchy (and I also do respect the judiciary). It's healthy to disagree with some legal decisions. That's why parliament is sovereign, there is an appellate jurisdiction, academic commentary, and the Law Commission... reform has to happen somehow.


That's this week...give it time (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showpost.php?p=1129221873&postcount=114)

What, like the free range eggs that are now growing in proportion and are prominently labelled in our supermarkets?

This won't go away. There may be other distractions, but the media is powerful, and it informs the even-more-powerful 'consumer' and as eggs illustrate...attitudes are changing.

[Hitcher]

Beware the spin associated with phrases like "free range" or "barn reared" or "organic" for that matter. They're marketing terms, with specious definitions, depending on who is doing the telling. When I hear terms like that, call me a cynical reactionary old fart, but I smell bullshit.

[Trudes]

It is fairly easy to tell a "cage egg" from a "free range egg" compare them sometime and you should (unless you are blind and have lost your sense of taste) be able to tell the difference, colour, consistency, taste.

[MSTRS]

Why are 50% of the industry able to do without? [Their own stated figures] To claim welfare reasons for the crates is specious in my opinion. The crates are 'needed' because of farming practices.
It has been stated by the Pork Mktg Bd fella that as few as 10% actually rely on those sow cages


I never said that. No one did.
No, they haven't...it's just the inference that it may be so.

'Assuming', 'guessing' and thinking that 'NZ has great animal welfare' is what the pork industry would love everyone to do, and probably explains their reticence to allow cameras into their farms. It's all in the codes. The codes specifically allow pork farmers to breach welfare standards that would apply to any other animal. That's my biggest problem.
Assuming etc is all that most of us have to go on. The media included. SAFE are not to be trusted because they have an agenda against meat producers, and the farmers won't let 'us' see in their sheds even though we wouldn't understand what we are seeing. And pigs are what they are...not the same as any/all other animals. Every kind of farmed animal requires different practices - offsetting welfare against production.


I'd need to start quoting cases, and while I could, it would be tedious for all. It's a major part of the Animals and the Law paper at AU law school. I'm also not about to name judges without putting up whole cases and allowing people to make up their own minds. That could be unwise. I'm sniping at the sentences, some comments in cases, and the overall attitude of the legal/governmental/regulatory community that 'it's only an animal'.
You see, that's my problem. You both 'slate' and 'respect' those who sit in judgement. A bit $ each way...

What, like the free range eggs that are now growing in proportion and are prominently labelled in our supermarkets?

This won't go away. There may be other distractions, but the media is powerful, and it informs the even-more-powerful 'consumer' and as eggs illustrate...attitudes are changing.
See below. Marketing spin. Unless you physically go to the farm, wander out into the paddock, select your chosen victim, capture, kill and process the critter right there, you will never know whether the label is 100% true per the implied source.



Beware the spin associated with phrases like "free range" or "barn reared" or "organic" for that matter. They're marketing terms, with specious definitions, depending on who is doing the telling. When I hear terms like that, call me a cynical reactionary old fart, but I smell bullshit.

Exactly, young man.

[Hitcher]

It is fairly easy to tell a "cage egg" from a "free range egg" compare them sometime and you should (unless you are blind and have lost your sense of taste) be able to tell the difference, colour, consistency, taste.

I feel an evening's entertainment coming up. We can do the egg blind tasting before the beer blind tasting. I have $100 that says you can't repeatably tell the difference.

[Trudes]

I feel an evening's entertainment coming up. We can do the egg blind tasting before the beer blind tasting. I have $100 that says you can't repeatably tell the difference.

I'll tell you what, I'll cook you two omelets, one with cage eggs (which you will have to bring with you as I won't buy those shitty pale watery things) and one with free range eggs. You'll see and taste the difference. And if you don't then I will start to seriously question your connoisseur tastes. Oh, and I'll have a Speights.

[Hitcher]

Oh, and I'll have a Speights.

You misunderstand the rules, Dear Heart. You have to tell the difference between a Speight's, a Waikato, a Mac's Gold and an Export Gold.

And I'm more than happy for you to come egg shopping with me too in case you think I've cheated.

[Trudes]

You misunderstand the rules, Dear Heart. You have to tell the difference between a Speight's, a Waikato, a Mac's Gold and an Export Gold.

And I'm more than happy for you to come egg shopping with me too in case you think I've cheated.

I wouldn't know the difference between the beers, I only drink Speights but (and there's no way you will get me anywhere near a Swamp water Waikato draught!!)
:laugh: (It's funny, cause we all know it's never going to happen!!):laugh:

[ynot slow]

6 pigs per hectare in open,how many crates can you get on 6 hectares,as they say in the USA do the math.

Crates are not the be all and end all,pens are available as well,and used.Mates father used to raise pigs,they had a pigsty on the property,was a good business for them,he used to get reject cheese from his work for feed,they used pens holding sows and piglets,and open pens as well with 5 or 6 sows in,they quickly got rid of trouble sows or seperated them.

[cave weta]

Dunno if you and Lias are trying to draw attention to yourselves in the same way as Sidewinder and the mormon few but you've got mine.

I'm no greenie townie either, I've killed and skinned animals but they led a good life, died quickly and it was for a purpose. I've got a tough as nails mate who's happens to be a butcher and he despairs at the way kiwi's treat their animals. I'm VERY wary of anyone who couldn't care about animal welfare. There's something not right in the head about the sort of person who can watch another living thing suffer unnecessarily.

Sad really.

the above is special message to Lias who has just given me my first ever red rep and nasty comment for standing up for the rights of animals.

[Quasievil]

the above is special message to Lias who has just given me my first ever red rep and nasty comment for standing up for the rights of animals.

I invite all who read this to visit his profile pic and gaze upon this cold heartless man....

What shall we do burn him?

[cave weta]

What shall we do burn him?

Honestly Quasi- I started this and now I sit back and wonder why- all it has done is bring to the surface, attitudes that show up individuals as being cold heartless and calous. how can some one who will pat a dog or stroke a cat treat other animals with such public hatered? what message is this to give to your children?

[Virago]

the above is special message to Lias who has just given me my first ever red rep and nasty comment for standing up for the rights of animals.

I invite all who read this to visit his profile pic and gaze upon this cold heartless man....

Okay, done it. That'll learn 'im...

[scracha]

the above is special message to Lias who has just given me my first ever red rep and nasty comment for standing up for the rights of animals.

You've probably just made his week.



I invite all who read this to visit his profile pic and gaze upon this cold heartless man....
He's quite purty tho'. Make him "squeeeeel like a pig" Mr Weta

[Quasievil]

Honestly Quasi- I started this and now I sit back and wonder why- all it has done is bring to the surface, attitudes that show up individuals as being cold heartless and calous. how can some one who will pat a dog or stroke a cat treat other animals with such public hatered? what message is this to give to your children?

mate this is KB, here is a heads up for you dude, I doubt anything on this whole thread outside the "proper posts" has any depth to it.
Its all a big laugh bro, dont take it personally..........really dont.

[monkeymcbean]

Very brave thread 'cave weta' but don't get to down about some of the replies that were'nt what you were expecting as it is a forum place where people like to hide behind the computer screens and sling shit from a distance, and would never post a pic of themselves except fully kitted up and helmeted on there profiles.
As for me, I'm for treating creatures as you would want to be treated yourself, even if you were to be eaten in the end.
As for bikers what out for the animals in the 'cages'.

[Finn]

As for me, I'm for treating creatures as you would want to be treated yourself...

You have sex with animals?

[Finn]

Well at least all this media hype and SAFE bullshit has made some pork sellers more honest...

[ManDownUnder]

You have sex with animals?

... there has to be a joke about some KB women in there somewhere...

[Hitcher]

... there has to be a joke about some KB women in there somewhere...

(Runs for the hills!)

[The Pastor]

Mmmmmmm pork

[terbang]

We don't have problems with pig farms around here (Saudi Arabia)...

[Finn]

We don't have problems with pig farms around here (Saudi Arabia)...

But you've got a lot of cross eyed goats though...

[terbang]

Beautiful camels too...

[monkeymcbean]

Well at least all this media hype and SAFE bullshit has made some pork sellers more honest...

Well im glad your thinking

[Trudes]

I was just sent this:
http://e-activist.com/ea-campaign/clientcampaign.do?ea.client.id=24&ea.campaign.id=3561%20%20&j=9066609&e=kendog@paradise.net.nz&l=2094912_HTML&u=73221975&mid=88761&jb=0

[ynot slow]

Beautiful camels too...

According to advertising back in the mid 70's,9 out of 10 men preferred camels.(Think it meant the smoke brand).No wonder the marlboro man had a smile.

[monkeymcbean]

You have sex with animals?

Hooplehead!

[Mom]

I have not read the entire thread but here is my spin on this issue.

Just to qualify what I am going to say, I love pigs! I have hundreds of them around the place. They are smart and very clean animals, and make great pets too!

I used to rear them (2 at a time) so we could eat them. I love pork!

I have visited piggeries like the one that was shown on the TV. It is dark (they keep them in the dark so the meat stays nice and white) and it appears from investigations that this particular farm shown meets animal welfare guidelines. There is impetus to improve the conditions that pigs are farmed in, it is just not happening fast enough in my opinion.

Pigs squeal! They are very vocal animals, just because they are making noise does not mean they are in pain or distressed, they do it when pleased to see you too! They can be vicious animals too, and will eat anything, including their young at a pinch. It is not in anyones interest to keep pigs in conditions where they are stressed to the point of having to munch on each other. Out in the open, with plenty of space, that never happens, however, to enjoy our yummy pork roast, cost of production has to be taken into consideration too.

The pork industry are not moving fast enough to improve how some producers operate.

Now, I did not watch the program that this thread is about, I saw shorts and that was enough for me, I am not into watching that sort of thing anyway, but having been there in a way told me all I needed to know anyway.

A few days after the screening of that program I saw an advertisement on TV mentioning the cruel treatment of farmed pigs, with a request for donations to none other than S.A.F.E. What a crock of shit!

This was nothing more than an activist group managing to get their agenda in the public eye, and the media gobbled it up much as a hungry pig would. This was a staged and managed campaign that has been very sucessful in as much as the Pork Industry Board have had to revisit the farming practises of their members. They must be delighted, and good on them too really. As it turns out the place they raided meets the guidelines for Piggy welfare :doh:

I read that for every pork producer to move to new and more acceptable farming practices it would raise the cost of pork $2 a kilo. Frankly I would happily pay that. About time they did it! The double the price organic brigade will find and have their market, of that I have no doubt. Make my pork a little more expensive to buy (have you checked the cost of NZ Lamb recently?) for more acceptable farming practices. Organic/free range farmers can command and hopefully get double the going rate per kilo for their efforts.

[Phurrball]

It has been stated by the Pork Mktg Bd fella that as few as 10% actually rely on those sow cages Good that the industry is moving away from the practice. Poor that it is allowed at all. Hypocritical that it would be illegal to treat any other animal in that way.



Assuming etc is all that most of us have to go on. The media included. SAFE are not to be trusted because they have an agenda against meat producers, and the farmers won't let 'us' see in their sheds even though we wouldn't understand what we are seeing. And pigs are what they are...not the same as any/all other animals. Every kind of farmed animal requires different practices - offsetting welfare against production.

Put the highlighted bit in another context involving humans and it becomes exceptionally disturbing. Humans have rights however. Maybe our kindred creatures will too one day. At the moment they only have the human construct of 'welfare', which is ALWAYS contingent on human interests and needs.

And the meat industry doesn't have an agenda? And powerful influence on NAWAC and advertising budgets and PR retainers and a law that enables their remaining poor welfare practrices... Fuck, they're a multimillion dollar industry who probably donate to political parties too, as opposed to SAFE who rely on donations. SAFE have managed impressive leverage IMHO.

Mistrust SAFE all you like, but there is a massive power imbalance, and it isn't in favour of SAFE.

Perhaps we wouldn't understand because some things are incomprehensible in light of the bigger picture (Like specific exceptions to allow conduct that would be illegal WRT other animals) Every other animal has the protection of the welfare statute. Any practice that is so hard to understand that it requires massive backpedalling and assurance that it is diminishing must surely be OK, right??

There are lower profile animal advocacy organisations out there that mix serious intellectual firepower with a focus on reform from the inside rather than the PR driven campaigns of SAFE (Not that I seek to derogate from SAFE's achievements, if a little 'in your face' for mainstream meat-eaters). Select committees and law reform more than public campaigns. Check out ARLAN's (http://www.arlan.org.nz/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=46&Itemid=53) achievements.



You see, that's my problem. You both 'slate' and 'respect' those who sit in judgement. A bit $ each way...

No. I slate a specific area of sentencing where the judiciary sadly reflects society's poor attitude that violence against animals is lesser than violence against humans. I am bound to respect the judiciary, I may of course respectfully disagree. 'Feeble judiciary' within this specific area is descriptive and apt.



See below. Marketing spin. Unless you physically go to the farm, wander out into the paddock, select your chosen victim, capture, kill and process the critter right there, you will never know whether the label is 100% true per the implied source. Yes, unless there is a specific standard overseen by an independent body.


Honestly Quasi- I started this and now I sit back and wonder why- all it has done is bring to the surface, attitudes that show up individuals as being cold heartless and calous. how can some one who will pat a dog or stroke a cat treat other animals with such public hatered? what message is this to give to your children?

That, ladies and gents, is the crux of it. As a society we treat many animals like shit (and others better than some of our fellow humans). Overall, we have a very sick societal attitude WRT animals.

As I said in my original reply, I didn't start a thread on this issue as there is an apparent bias in KB regarding issues such as this. It's not the best place to discuss socially progressive matters. Previously, I have been fortunate to canvass this issue in a more academic forum without the daftness. Such a thread is a brave endeavour here. Sadly, the nasty posts are to be expected in this environment CW.

Thanks again to the posters from all perspectives that have made worthy contributions.

[MSTRS]

I wonder what it is about me that you find it necessary to attack everything I post on this subject. Could it be because I'm not rabidly for/against the farming practices of a sector of the pork industry - just maybe you think you see a chance to swing my 'vote'? Not going to happen old son.
I say again...pigs are not like other types of farmed animals, and as such require differing practices. Whether crates are good or bad may be a matter of perception. You have yours and I have mine.
Things that are done 'for the good of...etc' which many see as bad are not unusual. Cheesecutters, anyone?

[Phurrball]

I wonder what it is about me that you find it necessary to attack everything I post on this subject.

IMHO quoting and rebutting with reasoned argument is not attack. You are not specifically a target, but as I reply to you point-by-point, you keep replying to me in kind. I was not aware this was a problem. BTW: You are included in my previous thanks for worthy contributors to this thread (just to clarify :grouphug:)


Could it be because I'm not rabidly for/against the farming practices of a sector of the pork industry - just maybe you think you see a chance to swing my 'vote'? Not going to happen old son.

Not even trying. I can sense a lost cause when I see one:eek: You have your opinion, I have mine.

I'm also arguing using a set of facts few are aware of. I am in a good position to comment on the law governing animals in New Zealand having studied under NZ's foremost academic expert (http://www.law.auckland.ac.nz/uoa/law/about/staff/peter_sankoff.cfm) on the subject as part of my LLB. It's worth clicking through to his personal page for commentary on this very subject that is far more impressive than my humble posts.

And I say again: The following are not opinions. They are immutable facts:


I say again...pigs are not like other types of farmed animals, Correct. The operative parts of the Animal Welfare Act 1999 do not apply. This means you can treat pigs in ways that could have you fined or jailed were you to treat another animal that way.


and as such require differing practices. Sure. Some practices relating to pigs are only exempt from punishment by a deeming provision in the law that makes it 'all OK'. That's what a powerful farming lobby can do. That's what happens when economic considerations inform welfare law. We would not accept that for people. It is a logical non sequitur that it is OK for animals.


Whether crates are good or bad may be a matter of perception. You have yours and I have mine.

Yes. BAD and ILLEGAL for any other animal. Fine for a pig. That's not perception either, that is statute and regulatory law. People can make what they will of our animal welfare laws based on that particular hypocrisy.


Things that are done 'for the good of...etc' which many see as bad are not unusual. Cheesecutters, anyone?

OK, if we're going to play at emotive analogies: You feel strongly that cheesecutters are a 'bad idea' (I do too). I feel strongly that all animals should have the same protection at law.

Cheesecutters - economic interests > protection of vulnerable road users.

Animal Welfare 'Code exceptions' - economic interests > protection of animals with no voice of their own.

Just like cheesecutters disproportionately affect certain classes of road user, the codes of welfare disproportionately affect certain classes of animals.

The codes allow certain classes of animal to fall outside the umbrella of the law in an insipid penumbra of partial protection.

Logically, it's like saying "It's OK if we only torture the prisoner a little bit to get a confession" when torture is generally banned. That's what our animal welfare laws allow. Certain animals do not get the same protection just because economic considerations in the industry allow practices that are banned in many other western countries - practices which are illegal if applied to any other animal.

I'm not getting at you personally. I'm getting at the hypocrisy in our law and society, and at the overall lack of awareness of practices such as the one at issue (One area where SAFE do a good job).

I'm hardly likely to clock you (or anyone) if you eat bacon in front of me. I'll generally leave people alone to eat their carcass in peace unless they open the door to debate. The way forward as I see it is to pursue law reform and education, not smash butchers' shop windows and antagonise.

That said, I have no qualms if public or regulatory pressure mean pig farmers make a little less profit per Kg because economics are removed from the animal welfare equation - as is morally and philosophically correct.

As the following link proves, it can be viable to farm pigs without crates. The farmers comment that no NZ pig farmer uses porcine growth hormone even though it is not illegal, and they could make more profit if they did use it. This is down to public pressure. I see the same happening to the practices at issue in this debate.

This week's RNZ National Country Life (http://podcast.radionz.co.nz/clife/clife-20090522-2113-Pig_out_not_in-048.mp3) has a feature on (commercial, non-organic) pig farming. Interesting listening from the perspective of the farmers themselves as interviewees. I can't say I liked everything I heard either (In case anyone thinks it's a hippie fest)

I've said enough here I think. Thanks for the positive comments and rep folks. I'm advocating for those without a voice here:2guns:, and I long for the day when our fellow animals have at lest some degree of rights and legal standing (as opposed to the 'welfare' compromise). Cheers, Ross.

[MSTRS]

... it can be viable to farm pigs without crates...

And if that is so, bring it on.
In the meantime, as long as any pig farmer uses sow crates/stalls within the letter of the law, in keeping with good animal husbandry for the period of time covering piglet birthing/nursing - then that's fine with me.

[Hitcher]

No form of farming will ever be acceptable for the Hans Krieks of this world. Next he will be complaining about lack of weather protection for sheep and cattle and the working conditions of farm dogs, exploitation of race horses, the biodiversity evils of domestic cats and the abuse of domesticated dogs in the name of "fashion".

I suspect he may well ignore tail-docking of dogs for a while, as he needs their owners' contributions to ban circus elephants and duck shooters.

[Pussy]

While everyone is arguing here... I might just duck off down to the supermarket and get a dirty big pork roast for tea...

[MSTRS]

While everyone is arguing here... I might just duck off down to the supermarket and get a dirty big pork roast for tea...

Can you smell ours? Is gooood.....

[Pussy]

Can you smell ours? Is gooood.....

Sorry, J... I can't!

The beautiful aroma from my you beaut 2kg roast that's been on for 45min is masking it! :niceone:

[peasea]

No form of farming will ever be acceptable for the Hans Krieks of this world. Next he will be complaining about lack of weather protection for sheep and cattle and the working conditions of farm dogs, exploitation of race horses, the biodiversity evils of domestic cats and the abuse of domesticated dogs in the name of "fashion".

I suspect he may well ignore tail-docking of dogs for a while, as he needs their owners' contributions to ban circus elephants and duck shooters.

Not to mention the harsh conditions that carrots in Ohakune face.

[Pussy]

Not to mention the harsh conditions that carrots in Ohakune face.
The Brussels Sprouts have a worse time of it

[peasea]

The Brussels Sprouts have a worse time of it

I sense a vegolution coming on.

[Finn]

Have you guys tried the pork test yet?

Well I did and here are the results. Last Sunday I chucked a large piece of dead pig in the oven. This was about half the price of a "free range" pig so I assume it was one of the caged varieties. Bloody delicious!

Then last night, in goes a $49 free range piece of pig. Bloody delicious! However, it wasn't better than the caged variety and may in fact have been slightly tougher.

My conclusion... Pork is delicious. Thanks to SAFE and our left wing media for reminding me of this.

[Hinny]

You have to be careful about eating too much pork.
Especially that imported stuff from countries where they use growth hormones.
It can have unexpected results.

[Gareth123]

Not sure if this has been bought up but I have to say it anyway...

Driving through Christchurch the other evening about 530pm. Saw some protesters protesting sow cages on Moorhouse ave. I couldn't help but think that the girl dressed up as a pig, who was jumping up and down and waving her arms in the air, trying unsucessfully to get people to toot their horns to show support, should have stayed away from the bacon sandwiches herself.

She didn't need to dress like a pig, she already looked like one.:bleh:

[NDORFN]

Don't buy bacon if you don't agree with the way they're farmed. It's as simple as that. We can force them to label whether or not the bacon is free-range by boycotting, like we did with eggs, then the choice will be of the individual consumer. Vote with your wallet! I personally don't mind paying twice as much for free-range eggs, nor would I mind paying twice as much for free-range bacon. In a country where people fork out billions in ever increasing petrol, alcohol and ciggarette tax annually, it's hard to believe that we wouldn't be willing to fork out extra, not for the benefit of government coffers or capatalist gain, but for the benefit of an animal who tastes great and who's only misgiving is a title association with the worst breed of animal imaginable, higway patrol officers.

[Hitcher]

Sigh. Use your wallet to enforce meaningless labelling. That sounds like a brilliant plan.


Caution, may contain traces of nuts.
Organic
Free range
GM free
Made in China


All equally nonsensical descriptors that offer no certainty or warranty for the prospective purchaser, yet "standards" that ultimately make food more expensive.

Buy a farm. Grow your own.

[Hinny]

The Big Bad Wolf said

“I’ll huff and I’ll puff and I’ll blow your house down”


The little pig says

“Fuck off or I’'ll sneeze on you”